Human Strength parry'ing Supernatural Strength Question.

[Lenwen]

How do you guys work this scenario ?

Do you guys allow a Normal Human strength opponant .. REALLY .. Parry a Supernaturally strong Character ?

This would not make sense ..

But how do you guys handle this scenario ?

[Killer Cyborg]

How do you guys work this scenario ?

Do you guys allow a Normal Human strength opponant .. REALLY .. Parry a Supernaturally strong Character ?

This would not make sense ..

But how do you guys handle this scenario ?

Nothing about Supernatural PS makes sense.

[Cybermancer]

I generally allow my players to attempt anything. Whether they'll be successful or not is another question.

In this specific case, I would run it thusly:

Creature with Supernatural PS attempts to strike PC.
PC with no armor attempts to parry.
PC dies as M.D.C. is inflicted to their arm and whatever is not absorbed by the arm is transferred to the mainbody of the character.

-OR-

Creature with Supernatural PS attempts to strike PC.
PC with MDC armor attempts to parry.
PC's arm armor takes MDC.
PC's actual arm takes 1/10th MDC damage inflicted as SDC (IE 20 MDC inflicted to armor means 2 SDC inflicted to the person inside it)
If PC's arm armor is exceeded, then excess MDC is done to the arm (making it useless) and then to the main body of the armor.
PC is knocked back number of feet equal to MDC inflicted and I apply penalties to the arm used to parry, even if the arm armor is not exceeded. PC within the armor takes 1D6 SDC damage for every 10 feet thrown (player may attempt to roll with the punch to reduce this by half). Finally, as a result of being knocked back, they are prone on their back and lose their next attack.
Of course, a lot of this is going to happen whether they attempt to parry or not.

This all based on my own tables house rules but the question was how we handled it.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I only allow it if they have MDC weapons or armor on.

[Lenwen]

I only allow it if they have MDC weapons or armor on.

Ok if they only have none Enviormental Body Armor on ?

For instance the Dogboy's armor ..

Would you allow them to parry with out injury a Supernatural PS creature's attacks ?

[Nekira Sudacne]

I only allow it if they have MDC weapons or armor on.

Ok if they only have none Enviormental Body Armor on ?

For instance the Dogboy's armor ..

Would you allow them to parry with out injury a Supernatural PS creature's attacks ?

Yep.

[dark brandon]

I only allow it if they have MDC weapons or armor on.

Ok if they only have none Enviormental Body Armor on ?

For instance the Dogboy's armor ..

Would you allow them to parry with out injury a Supernatural PS creature's attacks ?

Yep.

what about an MD weapon NS?

[dark brandon]

Realistically...(as retarded as that sounds in a game)...I think it'd be like trying to parry a wrecking ball, so no.

IG: Nothing hints that it can't be done. I think this is done on purpose for survivability of SDC creatures. Since I play for fun rather than realism, I actually agree with this.

IG: There is a story in Mt. Nimro about a human trying to parry a giants sword swing and getting cleaved in half. In this example though, it's a story rather than actual game play. This is reflected many times in many stories and in art. Reading about the world of rifts in a game play setting as well as art would be boring. Nearly all NPC's would be wearing FBA, mages would probably all have gas masks on...there'd be nothing to distinguish them from each other (most art where people are in normal clothing)...psychics would wear helmets (as expressed in the psyscape story)...ect...

[Killer Cyborg]

Realistically...(as retarded as that sounds in a game)...I think it'd be like trying to parry a wrecking ball, so no.

IG: Nothing hints that it can't be done. I think this is done on purpose for survivability of SDC creatures. Since I play for fun rather than realism, I actually agree with this.

I could play either way, and since there are no rules addressing this, I'll play without them.

IG: There is a story in Mt. Nimro about a human trying to parry a giants sword swing and getting cleaved in half. In this example though, it's a story rather than actual game play. This is reflected many times in many stories and in art. Reading about the world of rifts in a game play setting as well as art would be boring. Nearly all NPC's would be wearing FBA, mages would probably all have gas masks on...there'd be nothing to distinguish them from each other (most art where people are in normal clothing)...psychics would wear helmets (as expressed in the psyscape story)...ect...

Also, supernatural PS doesn't make much difference damage-wise in PFRPG, so that story was probably more illustrative of the effects of trying to parry something larger than you are tall.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I only allow it if they have MDC weapons or armor on.

Ok if they only have none Enviormental Body Armor on ?

For instance the Dogboy's armor ..

Would you allow them to parry with out injury a Supernatural PS creature's attacks ?

Yep.

what about an MD weapon NS?

yes

[grandmaster z0b]

It's a good question. Off the top of my head I would say I would allow it only if the defender was using something to parry with (an MDC object in an MDC environment) and then at -10 to parry, or maybe -5 for every 10 points of SN strength.

For hand to hand without weapons I probably wouldn't allow it unless the character was a dedicated martial artist or equivalent and then with some sort of penalty as above.

[wolfsgrin]

a real parry goes with the force imo. as long as the fighters are similar in stature, i see no problem. interesting thought thogh, may have to reconsider and add some negatives.

[grandmaster z0b]

Just realised that RUE has a rule that specifically states that a strike from someone with Supernatural Strength can only be parried with a MD object, including MDC armour, but that a weapon should always be parried with another weapon or take the damage.

It's in Rifts Ultimate Edition page 340, near the bottom of the page.

[The Beast]

How do you guys work this scenario ?

Do you guys allow a Normal Human strength opponant .. REALLY .. Parry a Supernaturally strong Character ?

This would not make sense ..

But how do you guys handle this scenario ?

Nothing about Supernatural PS makes sense.

What makes you say that?

[dark brandon]

So far I've allowed it, althought I've been rethinking it a bit. One idea I (and others one the board) had is that since some types of parries are redirection instead of blocking it is possible. However since you have to rely on a more difficult type of parry there would be a penalty to attemp it.

I dunno. I don't think human on earth could redirect a wrecking ball enough to save him if the ball is coming right at him. I could be wrong, I don't know much about physics or math or Potatoes.

[dark brandon]

So far I've allowed it, althought I've been rethinking it a bit. One idea I (and others one the board) had is that since some types of parries are redirection instead of blocking it is possible. However since you have to rely on a more difficult type of parry there would be a penalty to attemp it.

I dunno. I don't think human on earth could redirect a wrecking ball enough to save him if the ball is coming right at him. I could be wrong, I don't know much about physics or math or Potatoes.

True, but at the same time if I'm running a campaign with a number of SDC characters I don't want *squish* to be the number 1 sound effect.

That's why I pretend it doesn't exist. Fun>realism.

[ZorValachan]

My home rule
the 4 levels: normal, augmented, robotic, supernatural.
1 higher is -10 for strength checks/parries
2 or more higher = fail.
So normal vs robotic = normal fail
aug vs robotic = aug is -10 to parries against robotic (fails against Supernatural) if it is like wrestling, they roll a D20 and add PS. aug takes the total and -10 to it. higher number wins for that hold.

[ZorValachan]

BUT you could do a soft dodge, basically the same motion as the parry except you are using it to propell yourself out of the way of the impact.

Hmmm sounds suspiciously like a 'Roll with punch/fall/impact'.....

[SkyeFyre]

If someone with MDC armor attempts to parry a SN strike most of the time if they succeed, I have it so that they don't take any damage but they generally lose an action or two as a result of flying back from the impact. Sometimes depending on how hard the hit is they may see their weapon fly from their hands. I allow it, and allow it to negate all damage, however they'll usually pay another way. Now if the strike is in the form of a fist that, lets say is the size of the player themselves, and it's coming straight down on them... yeah... no parry. It's all dependent on the situation for me.

[Dr. Doom III]

A parry isn't a block. It's a deflection. A redirection of the energy of the blow.
The strength of the blow is irrelevant.

[ZorValachan]

A parry isn't a block. It's a deflection. A redirection of the energy of the blow.
The strength of the blow is irrelevant.

Wrong

[Dr. Doom III]

A parry isn't a block. It's a deflection. A redirection of the energy of the blow.
The strength of the blow is irrelevant.

Wrong

That's my line. And I use it only when the other person is actually wrong.

[AzathothXy]

Wasn't this answered in the Nightbane FAQ in Rifter #48?

[ZorValachan]

A parry isn't a block. It's a deflection. A redirection of the energy of the blow.
The strength of the blow is irrelevant.

Wrong

That's my line. And I use it only when the other person is actually wrong.

Wrong x2

[Nekira Sudacne]

Doom is correct.

[ZorValachan]

Doom is correct.

Wrong 1: A parry isn't a block. It's a deflection.
Real:The correct definition of parry is a deflection or ward. it comes from the Latin parare, to prepare. If it was solely a deflection, the definition would end there; it does not. Definition of ward is to watch, guard, protect, block. A block therefore is a ward, thus a parry may be a block.
Game: How parries are used in the game is as both a deflection and a block. As was pointed at by Darkorinth, a shield (which blocks) gives bonuses to parry (wrong 1.5). Rifts GMG pg 30 "This is done by blocking the attacker's blow with a weapon or hand."

Wrong 2: The strength of the blow is irrelevant.
Real: As was pointed out by Dark Brandon, No one could parry (either ward against or deflect) a wrecking ball. Go grab a sword, or a shield or whatever and try it. Make a video, put it on youtube, you'll get lots of views.
Game: R:UE page 340 "A physical Mega-damage (M.D.) attack from a Supernatural punch or claw, or an attack with an M.D. melee weapon can be parried/blocked by another M.D. object such as a vibro-Blade, and M.D.C. rifle, a piece of M.D.C. metal, or a hand or arm that is clad in M.D.C. armor." So the supernatural strength IS relevant. You cannot parry a supernatural melee/hand to hand attack with S.D.C. items. (wrong 2.5)

Wrong 3:That's my line. And I use it only when the other person is actually wrong.
Use: Killer Cyborg has used it, and that was the first person on this forum who I saw using it.
Quote: (this was quoted, but not with reference)
It has NOTHING to do with powerful gear, spells or OCCs.
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Wrong.

Wrong 4: Doom is Correct
As I have shown he is wrong, therefore the statement that Doom is correct is wrong.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Wrong 1,2,3: It's a game, not real life. There are several exsamples of Cyber-knights parrying creatures with supernatural strength dispite not having it themselves. That's more than good enough for me. Real-life definitions and senarios are completely irrelevant to the discussion.

[jaymz]

Actually, Nekira, in his post it points out that it CAN be parried as long as the arm is clad in MDC armour... No mention of having to have SN PS to parry just have to have an MD pbject to do it with is all. Even gave us a page number ot reference. Personally I'd have them take some minor sdc damage thru the armour just to teh massive physical blow a SN PS attack woudl be even though I woudl let them parry the attack if it feasible (as in not a full sized adult dragon stomp but i think you get what I mean) but thats just me.

[jaymz]

Wrong 1,2,3: It's a game, not real life. There are several exsamples of Cyber-knights parrying creatures with supernatural strength dispite not having it themselves. That's more than good enough for me. Real-life definitions and senarios are completely irrelevant to the discussion.

It could be argued that a Psi-sword is an MD object and thus according to the rules can parry against SN PS, which would be how Cyber-knights parry against a creature with SN PS.

Not to mention they do normally wear armour

[Nekira Sudacne]

But your using the argument of the wreaking ball. Say I had a club in my hand, and I had a wreaking ball coming at me. How, exsactly, would the club help deflect the wreaking ball more than I could with my bare hands?

Essentially, if your going to argue that it's possible to parry supernatural strength in the first place, and cannon quite clearly states that it is, then you have to go all the way with it.

[jaymz]

NOw me personally I see the wrecking ball as something like a full sized dragon stomp. I wouldn't allow it to be parried on principle, regardless of SN PS. It's calle dodge But a roughly equivalent sized being or so i would allow it even if they had SN PS.

[dark brandon]

NOw me personally I see the wrecking ball as something like a full sized dragon stomp. I wouldn't allow it to be parried on principle, regardless of SN PS. It's calle dodge But a roughly equivalent sized being or so i would allow it even if they had SN PS.

why would size matter? It'd like be trying to deflect a canon ball at that point (the small ones used like in civil war). Oh, like that one civil war movie (forget the name) where they show the small canon ball rolling on the ground ripping off legs. Now, i'm not one to suggest things, but considering the ball was ripping through legs it doesn't seem to me that had they had the option of parrying it would have diverted the ball at all.

[jaymz]

Well in that case you could call it a parry though you end up being moved and taking some sdc damage i guess. *shrugs* to be honest if realism is really wnated, we shoudl all convert Rifts to Phoenix Command

[Cinos]

I've long since implemented rules of parry only deflecting a part of the damage delt, and giving the defender the choice of where to put it (to arms of their armor, etc). This means Supernatural punches still hit hard, just not chest shatteringly hard (similarly, any effects of the attack are reduced by the same amount). Amount is based at 25%, changed by level, HtH, W.P, class, and similar things.

[Vrykolas2k]

Since a properly performed parry has little in common with the silly (and weapon-damaging) blocks you see on most tv shows and in movies, I'd say that yes most forms of standard melee attacks could be parried.

[Adventus]

In would like to bring up an Incredible Hulk reference, as if anybody has supernatural str, he does.

In an arc where Bruce banner was separated from the hulk and the hulk was out west somewhere, He was fighting Thor Wonder man and Iron man and kicking the buts all over the place.

This Japanese lady, who happened to be a master at judo and aikido, went up to the Hulk. When he attempted to punch her, she martial threw him. and again and again and again. Then, out of attacks/melee actions, was unable to dodge the Hulks next swing. several months in hospital healing as most of the bones in her body were shattered. Not broken, shattered.

So, to answer the question, yes i would. but you had not miss the roll. Otherwise you are severely injured and most if not all of your hit points are GONE! And you had better hope you have more attacks than your opponent or you are jelly.

[Dr. Doom III]

In would like to bring up an Incredible Hulk reference, as if anybody has supernatural str, he does.

In an arc where Bruce banner was separated from the hulk and the hulk was out west somewhere, He was fighting Thor Wonder man and Iron man and kicking the buts all over the place.

This Japanese lady, who happened to be a master at judo and aikido, went up to the Hulk. When he attempted to punch her, she martial threw him. and again and again and again. Then, out of attacks/melee actions, was unable to dodge the Hulks next swing. several months in hospital healing as most of the bones in her body were shattered. Not broken, shattered.

So, to answer the question, yes i would. but you had not miss the roll. Otherwise you are severely injured and most if not all of your hit points are GONE! And you had better hope you have more attacks than your opponent or you are jelly.

I have that issue.

[wolfsgrin]

IMO, a parry actually comes in behind the attack and actually diverts the direction of the attack. This is just the martial artist in me that had to post something. lol It really just doesn't take any power to parry an oncoming attack, its finess and all in the timing. I have a power lifter i workout with and I parry him just as easily as I do my normal sized students (this guy is like 6'6 and 275...yikes....like trying to throw around a tree stump). Also take into account that while parrying there is a little bit of shuffling of the feet, like an auto dodege but you still need to get your hands up because you're not fast enough to use foot work alone.
I often thought about implementing a Block rule.(bleh another rule/roll) Which would be more of the just throw arms/object in way of attack.(but this is how i always invisioned one of the possibilities with roll with punch) Maybe it could get a small bump in bonuses, but the trade off would be that you still take some damage, or object/armor is damaged. But really the block rule would be used when parrying bullets and fricken laser beams.
Again just my opinion. Never had to fight a guy with SnPS in RL before. hard to define realistic here lol

[Devjannz]

In would like to bring up an Incredible Hulk reference, as if anybody has supernatural str, he does.

In an arc where Bruce banner was separated from the hulk and the hulk was out west somewhere, He was fighting Thor Wonder man and Iron man and kicking the buts all over the place.

This Japanese lady, who happened to be a master at judo and aikido, went up to the Hulk. When he attempted to punch her, she martial threw him. and again and again and again. Then, out of attacks/melee actions, was unable to dodge the Hulks next swing. several months in hospital healing as most of the bones in her body were shattered. Not broken, shattered.

So, to answer the question, yes i would. but you had not miss the roll. Otherwise you are severely injured and most if not all of your hit points are GONE! And you had better hope you have more attacks than your opponent or you are jelly.

Another good example would be Batman and Superman. There have been many instances of Batman parrying Superman by using a Judo or Aikido throw. I think it would be possible for them to parry using a technique like that but for them to just stand there and block it,I would say no.

[Nomadic]

Blocking is different from a parry. A bullet has massive speed in A direction. A small wind can change the vector enough to miss.

This is the parry. Anyone with any MA skill will tell you it takes very little pressure to "push" a punch out of the way. I only allow this type of parry if the PC have advanced H2H. Ma, Commando, Etc.

That being said. I agree with the other comments. If a PC "Blocks" an incoming MC with SDC Good By Arm. With MD Armor, the Armor Takes the damage.

Anyone with MA training will tell you that a Parry is a very soft attack and correctly executed will cause no damage to either person. Now that being said Alot of MA people aren't doing it right and are bludging the incomming atttack.

Watch this video.. Notice the differnces between the incoming punch and the kick. The Punch most of the time is parried while the kick is blocked.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug4n_kduiaI

[Devjannz]

I think it comes down to how the person says that they are trying to parry the incoming blow.

If they say that they are trying to Block: they take damage.
If they say that they are trying to grab the limb and do a Body Flip/Throw: I would require that they First make their Parry roll(using the Called Shot rules), then (if they have the Body Flip/Throw skill via their HtH skill), make a second roll to try and throw the attacker. (uses up an Attack).

What do you think?

[Nomadic]

I think it comes down to how the person says that they are trying to parry the incoming blow.

If they say that they are trying to Block: they take damage.
If they say that they are trying to grab the limb and do a Body Flip/Throw: I would require that they First make their Parry roll(using the Called Shot rules), then (if they have the Body Flip/Throw skill via their HtH skill), make a second roll to try and throw the attacker. (uses up an Attack).

What do you think?

This is why I ran combat the way I do. Instead of it being a "free" attack, understanding it still uses thier action. I would Do it like this.

Three people
PC-1, PC-2, NPC

PC2 Long Range
PC1 in H2h
NPC in h2h with PC1
NPC Attacks
PC1 Parries
PC2 Attacks but doesn't hit either of them.
-----------------------
End of round
PC1 you may flip the npc at this time, but it will count as your action for the up comming round. (He Flips him)

Begin Round
NPC is is mid air(Rolls balance and roll with punch to try and land on his feet) (result unknown to players)
PC1 used his action to flip
PC2 takes a shot at the NPC flying thru the air.
End of Round
Begin Round
NPC Made his Roll he can attack, NPC Didn't make his rolll uses this action to stand up.

you get the idea.

[Nomadic]

I run a more epic and cinematic type of game, so I say yes. SN strength can be parried by anyone wielding an MD weapon or wearing MDC armor against it.

It's not like SN strength doesn't make those who have it already dominate the game enough without making it impossible for most "squishy" characters to mix it up in melee with them. I like my cyberknights and juicers to go toe to toe with demons, thanks very much.

Ya they dodge. LOL

[Nomadic]

I run a more epic and cinematic type of game, so I say yes. SN strength can be parried by anyone wielding an MD weapon or wearing MDC armor against it.

It's not like SN strength doesn't make those who have it already dominate the game enough without making it impossible for most "squishy" characters to mix it up in melee with them. I like my cyberknights and juicers to go toe to toe with demons, thanks very much.

Ya they dodge. LOL

Nope. In my games they exchange parries and strikes as in the best of cinematic film. There is no penalty for parrying the fist of a brodkil with your psi-sword or vibro-sword, or the MDC vambrace of your armor. The fact that wielders of Supernatural PS can already deal impressive amounts of MD with their physical bodies is enough of an advantage without making SDC characters unable to withstand hand to hand combat with them.

A successive parry to will do damage to the armor or shield the character has parried with

I've read this somewhere but can't remember which book.

[Nomadic]

I see where I got that from. Parrying Energy Blasts says that whatever you parry with takes the damage. Your call. I've always ruled that if you parry and you don't have MA then you block and take damage.

[cornholioprime]

I only allow it if they have MDC weapons or armor on.

What she said.

In Real Life Combat, soldiers have had their arms shattered, wielding a Shield, while successfully parrying the blows of regular opponents attacking with blunt weapons like Mauls or Maces.