Jiucer PS

[Crucible]

Ssomething has been bugging me and my group about the strength of juicers. The Juicer OCC clearlly states that they can lift and carry 4x more the a being of equivalent strength. THe argument is that if you take it as it is juicers are stonger than SN strength.

Exsample; Normal human ps of 20= Carry 400lbs lift 800lbs

Robot PS of 20 = carry 500lbs lift 1000lbs

SN PS 20 = carry 1000lbs lift 2000lbs

The Juiser with is speicel PS of 20 would = 1600lbs. lift 3200lbs. because they are for times stronger than the equvilant human.


Is withe the correct math or am I misssing something.

This is one of those "imperfections" that I mentioned earlier. This is where I get into trouble with PEOPLE sometimes too. I think (I can only say that I think/assume) that it means EXACTLY what you think it is.

I gave up a LONG time ago on this one and just stick with SN, Robot, etc=different damage mostly.

[The Galactus Kid]

And just because someone can lift or carry more, doesn't mean that they can do more damage. Its the supernatural elements that do that. Juicers are just totally awesome.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Something has been bugging me and my group about the strength of juicers. The Juicer OCC clearly states that they can lift and carry 4x more the a being of equivalent strength. THe argument is that if you take it as it is juicers are stronger than SN strength.

Example; Normal human ps of 20= Carry 400lbs lift 800lbs

Robot PS of 20 = carry 500lbs lift 1000lbs

SN PS 20 = carry 1000lbs lift 2000lbs

The Juicer with is special PS of 20 would = 1600lbs. lift 3200lbs. because they are for times stronger than the equivalent human.


Is withe the correct math or am I missing something.

What is says is that a juicer can lift and carry x4 as much as a normal person with a equivalent PS and PE.
And the minimum APS score for a juicer is 22

Normal PS of 22: lift: 880 lb. carry: 440 lb.
Augmented PS of 22: Lift: ?? Carry: ??
Robotic PS of 22: Lift: 1100 lb. Carry: 550 lb.
SuperNatural PS of 22: Lift: 2200 lb. Carry: 1100 lb.
Hummmm... There is no explicit numbers for carry/life weights for augmented PS in nether the RGMG nor RUE.

However, if you follow the text of the juicer, then Augmented PS can lift: 3520 lb. and carry: 1760 lb. If you follow the text in the Crazy OCC then the numbers would be, Lift: 1760 Carry: 880 lb..

The super endurance in both the Juice and the Crazy appear to be copy and pasted from the Rifts Main Book. So there was no change in the text.

[Lenwen]

Ssomething has been bugging me and my group about the strength of juicers. The Juicer OCC clearlly states that they can lift and carry 4x more the a being of equivalent strength. THe argument is that if you take it as it is juicers are stonger than SN strength.

Exsample; Normal human ps of 20= Carry 400lbs lift 800lbs

Robot PS of 20 = carry 500lbs lift 1000lbs

SN PS 20 = carry 1000lbs lift 2000lbs

The Juiser with is speicel PS of 20 would = 1600lbs. lift 3200lbs. because they are for times stronger than the equvilant human.


Is withe the correct math or am I misssing something.

The issue here is that it is correct.

But the fact that the Juicer can lift/Carry more weight does not transend into the Juicer being able to inflict the same lvl of MD as a Supernaturally Strong Character.

It is only granted for what it clearly stats.

Lifting and carrying ..

Nuthing more.

[Ziggurat the Eternal]

I am confused about where these numbers are coming from.
My book clearly states that normal PS carry 10x PS score, and lift twice as much. Also, robotic is 25, supernatural is 50.
Hence,
PS 22 lift 440, carry 220
Augmented PS 22 varies by class
Robotic PS 22 lift 1100, carry 550
Supernatural PS 2200, carry 1100
also, that means that while a juicer can carry 880 and lift 1760, he cant quite outdo a supernatural character of equivalent strength.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I am confused about where these numbers are coming from.
My book clearly states that normal PS carry 10x PS score, and lift twice as much. Also, robotic is 25, supernatural is 50.
Hence,
PS 22 lift 440, carry 220
Augmented PS 22 varies by class
Robotic PS 22 lift 1100, carry 550
Supernatural PS 2200, carry 1100
also, that means that while a juicer can carry 880 and lift 1760, he cant quite outdo a supernatural character of equivalent strength.

Your normal PS numbers are off by half, NPS of 17 or more is PS score x20 for carrying, not x10.

[Lenwen]

I am confused about where these numbers are coming from.
My book clearly states that normal PS carry 10x PS score, and lift twice as much. Also, robotic is 25, supernatural is 50.
Hence,
PS 22 lift 440, carry 220
Augmented PS 22 varies by class
Robotic PS 22 lift 1100, carry 550
Supernatural PS 2200, carry 1100
also, that means that while a juicer can carry 880 and lift 1760, he cant quite outdo a supernatural character of equivalent strength.

It would seem that the OP's book is an older book then perhaps ?

And that you would have a newer book .

[Ziggurat the Eternal]

I am confused about where these numbers are coming from.
My book clearly states that normal PS carry 10x PS score, and lift twice as much. Also, robotic is 25, supernatural is 50.
Hence,
PS 22 lift 440, carry 220
Augmented PS 22 varies by class
Robotic PS 22 lift 1100, carry 550
Supernatural PS 2200, carry 1100
also, that means that while a juicer can carry 880 and lift 1760, he cant quite outdo a supernatural character of equivalent strength.

It would seem that the OP's book is an older book then perhaps ?

And that you would have a newer book .

Maybe. I supose that makes sense, and i don't want to go check my older version anyways.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Both the Rifts Main Book and RUE have the same math describing normal PS carrying weights.

[Crucible]

I know what you mean, but its a never ending debate at my table.

I've got three rules and I don't waver on them.

1) Its not up for debate, you don't like it run your own games and don't waste my time. I'm busy.

2) You have an issue about the game, do not stop me during the game. There are RL consequences like...IDK...being asked to leave in a hostile manner because its a game and not life.

3) IF you have any questions or concerns, we'll talk during the gaming Q&A after said game.

End of story. You see, I'm a grown man who has a TON on his plate as is. Folks are happy that I have time. Rules, terminology, and technicality are an afterthought when I run good games.

I think the term is "big picture" or "seeing the forest instead of the trees".

[Nekira Sudacne]

I am confused about where these numbers are coming from.
My book clearly states that normal PS carry 10x PS score, and lift twice as much. Also, robotic is 25, supernatural is 50.
Hence,
PS 22 lift 440, carry 220
Augmented PS 22 varies by class
Robotic PS 22 lift 1100, carry 550
Supernatural PS 2200, carry 1100
also, that means that while a juicer can carry 880 and lift 1760, he cant quite outdo a supernatural character of equivalent strength.

Your normal PS numbers are off by half, NPS of 17 or more is PS score x20 for carrying, not x10.

Except that it clearly states that 17+ is Extrodnary strength, not normal, so they lift 4x Normal strength, not extrodanary strength.

[Lenwen]

I am confused about where these numbers are coming from.
My book clearly states that normal PS carry 10x PS score, and lift twice as much. Also, robotic is 25, supernatural is 50.
Hence,
PS 22 lift 440, carry 220
Augmented PS 22 varies by class
Robotic PS 22 lift 1100, carry 550
Supernatural PS 2200, carry 1100
also, that means that while a juicer can carry 880 and lift 1760, he cant quite outdo a supernatural character of equivalent strength.

It would seem that the OP's book is an older book then perhaps ?

And that you would have a newer book .

Maybe. I supose that makes sense, and i don't want to go check my older version anyways.

My books all say the same as you'rs ..

We will take 18 as our base Strength roll.
--------------------------Carry ---------Lift.
Human Strength - 10x PS = 180lbs -------360lbs
Augme strength - 25x PS = 450lbs-------900lbs
Robotic strength- 25x PS = 450lbs------- 900lbs
SN Strength----- 50x PS = 900lbs -------1800lbs

Is this not correct ?

[Ziggurat the Eternal]

I am confused about where these numbers are coming from.
My book clearly states that normal PS carry 10x PS score, and lift twice as much. Also, robotic is 25, supernatural is 50.
Hence,
PS 22 lift 440, carry 220
Augmented PS 22 varies by class
Robotic PS 22 lift 1100, carry 550
Supernatural PS 2200, carry 1100
also, that means that while a juicer can carry 880 and lift 1760, he cant quite outdo a supernatural character of equivalent strength.

Your normal PS numbers are off by half, NPS of 17 or more is PS score x20 for carrying, not x10.

Except that it clearly states that 17+ is Extrodnary strength, not normal, so they lift 4x Normal strength, not extrodanary strength.

I would have to say its 4x extroanary strength otherwise it wouldn't be eqivealent.

Equivalent means the same numbers, at least as I read it. Also, extraordinary is not equivalent to augmented. Juicers have Augmented strength, which juicers have, can inflict mdc on a power punch, whereas no amount of extraordinary ps can match. Also, extraordinary ps is nothing more than high levels of normal ps.

Though it doesn't factor into the equation, I would like to mention that extraordinary ps should not give 20x carry. Thats just dumb.

[Killer Cyborg]

I am confused about where these numbers are coming from.
My book clearly states that normal PS carry 10x PS score, and lift twice as much. Also, robotic is 25, supernatural is 50.
Hence,
PS 22 lift 440, carry 220
Augmented PS 22 varies by class
Robotic PS 22 lift 1100, carry 550
Supernatural PS 2200, carry 1100
also, that means that while a juicer can carry 880 and lift 1760, he cant quite outdo a supernatural character of equivalent strength.

Your normal PS numbers are off by half, NPS of 17 or more is PS score x20 for carrying, not x10.

Except that it clearly states that 17+ is Extrodnary strength, not normal, so they lift 4x Normal strength, not extrodanary strength.

I once made the same argument, and I think I was proven wrong.
I believe that there are some Juicer NPCs out there that list lift/carry weights that demonstrate that it's applying to 'normal humans" vs. "augmented humans," not "normal strength level" vs. "extraordinary strength level."

I'll skim around and see if I can find that conversation.

(Oh, and don't bother looking at Hanz and Franz in VK- they make no sense by ANY rules)

[Killer Cyborg]

THe argument is that if you take it as it is juicers are stonger than SN strength.

I believe that is correct- Juicers are stronger than if they had Supernatural Strength.

I believe this is because Supernatural Strength doesn't actually make you stronger- it just supernaturally breaks the laws of physics, allowing you to lift/carry more than normal, and to inflict absurd amounts of damage.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Your normal PS numbers are off by half, NPS of 17 or more is PS score x20 for carrying, not x10.

Except that it clearly states that 17+ is Extraordinary strength, not normal, so they lift 4x Normal strength, not extraordinary strength.

I might repeat myself....

What is says is that a juicer can lift and carry x4 as much as a normal person with a equivalent PS and PE.

AND,
it clearly states, in the weights and movement text, that "strong" characters" with a PS of 17 or higher use the x20 multiplier.

In RIFTS there is no EXPS nor is there SHPS, those are only in SDC settings; more specifically, in HU.

One thing I did before answering this question was actually Read The Books (RMB & RGMG & RUE) so I would be stating "What the Books Say", and based my math on the numbers "The Books Say".

Therefor, if your game does it another way, you need to say...." in our game" or the like in the preamble to what you say.

[drewkitty ~..~]

THe argument is that if you take it as it is juicers are stronger than SN strength.

I believe that is correct- Juicers are stronger than if they had Supernatural Strength.

I believe this is because Supernatural Strength doesn't actually make you stronger- it just supernaturally breaks the laws of physics, allowing you to lift/carry more than normal, and to inflict absurd amounts of damage.

Here is a way to look at it...
Juicers can just lift and carry more, because they can ignore their negative feedback from their bodies that keep the rest of us from overstraining ourselves.

[Killer Cyborg]

Here's one old thread on the subject:
link

Here's another.

And HERE is where I'm shown to be wrong in my interpretations of things.

Also there is another contradictory paradox in your reasoning: Dog Boys. All Dog Boys have the ability to lift. On pg. 146, RUE, it notes that "... the Dog Boy is twice that of the average human with it comes to ... lifting weight." (emphasis added).

The word you cut out is "enduance".
As in, "The physical endurance of the Dog Boys is twice that of the average human."
Not strength.

It then goes on to clairify that those with a PS of 16 or under get the x20 while those wiht a PS of 17+ get the x40.

So, if this is what they expressly meant with twice the strengh of a normal person, then how can you rationalize it to meaning the exact same thing for someone who has four times the strenth of a noral person?

THIS is actually the first piece of solid evidence you have brought into the argument!

Let's look at it.
First of all, RUE doesn't say that they can lift 2x that of a "Normal" character, it says "average". Not necessarily the same thing.
But the orignal Rifts book does say "Normal" humans.
I'm assuming that RUE is likely clarifying the same rule, not changing it, so this establishes that references to "Normal" characters apparently does NOT mean the same as it does in the weight/carry section. Which means that Juicer logically use the same terminology and intent as the Dog Boys, meaning that they can lift/carry 4x the amount of an unaugmented character with the same strength, whether the unaugmented human is Normal or Strong.

Which means that a normal Juicer with a PS of 22 (the minimum) can carry 1740 lbs, and can lift up to 3480 lbs.
Meanwhile, a robot with a PS of 22 can only carry 550 lbs, and can only lift 1100 lbs.
And a Titan Juicer with a PS of 30 can carry 1500 lbs and can lift 3000 lbs.

Unless I'm missing something, it looks like you're right: The rules make no sense.

So it wasn't NPC stats that did it, it was a comparison of the RUE text on Dog Boys vs. the RUE text on Juicers.
But there you have it- Juicers are stronger than as if they had Supernatural Strength.

[Killer Cyborg]

THe argument is that if you take it as it is juicers are stronger than SN strength.

I believe that is correct- Juicers are stronger than if they had Supernatural Strength.

I believe this is because Supernatural Strength doesn't actually make you stronger- it just supernaturally breaks the laws of physics, allowing you to lift/carry more than normal, and to inflict absurd amounts of damage.

Here is a way to look at it...
Juicers can just lift and carry more, because they can ignore their negative feedback from their bodies that keep the rest of us from overstraining ourselves.

But Titan Juicers can't do that?

[Killer Cyborg]

What is says is that a juicer can lift and carry x4 as much as a normal person with a equivalent PS and PE.

AND,
it clearly states, in the weights and movement text, that "strong" characters" with a PS of 17 or higher use the x20 multiplier.

That's her point- "Strong" does not equal "Normal."
Originally, these were posed as being two separate strength categories, and as written it seemed to mean that Juicers were 4x better than "Normal" characters, NOT 4x better than "Strong" characters.

Her logic there (and my own) was perfectly valid- going off of what the books before RUE actually said- it's just that they ultimately did not turn out to be sound.

[drewkitty ~..~]

In this usage 'strong' means chars with Normal PS with PS scores greater then 16. While a 17+ PS score might be exception in that its is that high & get bonuses from it, it is still 'Normal PS'.

When they used the word 'normal' as what sort of char they are comparing to, they meant a char with 'Normal PS', Not 'Extraordinary',not 'SuperHuman', not 'augmented', not 'robotic', and not 'Supernatural'.
Then they used the word 'equivalent' which in this case would mean "with the same PS score if not the same type of PS".

Otherwise you would need to figure out how strong a person with 'Normal PS' would need to be to do the MD of an 'Augmented PS' punch. Then figure out the J's lifting/carrying capacity from there. Which would be insane, instead of just wow.
----------
Now if they meant that that J's could lift/carry 4x that of ave. chars, then my calculations would start out with a Normal PS of 12. Which would of been 240/120. This would put a J's L/C load weights about 960/480.

------------
A J's PS score is a Minimum of 22, so that is the lowest PS score that can be compaired. That is why That is why the PS scores I used in my Compairison is 22.

[Killer Cyborg]

In this usage 'strong' means chars with Normal PS with PS scores greater then 16.

Correct- but until RUE there was nothing to indicate that interpretation over the other one.

Then they used the word 'equivalent' which in this case would mean "with the same PS score if not the same type of PS".

Of course.
I don't think that was ever in question.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I've made my point so all I'm going to say is "last word"

[Killer Cyborg]

I've made my point so all I'm going to say is "last word"

Okay- I'll let you have the last word.

[Captain Shiva]

I use the lifting scales from HU,and I give Juicers and Crazies Extraordinary PS,borgs,power armor, and robots get Superhuman PS,and beings who have Supernatural PS in Rifts still have it.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I've made my point so all I'm going to say is "last word"

The 'Final Solution' is not always the correct one...

Sometimes its better to stop before you a Pissed at each other, even if it's not perfect, it is civil.
Besides, the last word is not always the Final Word.

[Captain Shiva]

I use the lifting scales from HU,and I give Juicers and Crazies Extraordinary PS,borgs,power armor, and robots get Superhuman PS,and beings who have Supernatural PS in Rifts still have it.

I've thought aboub doing just that, but desided that the Rift's rules worked better for me.

One of the reasons I did was to keep the system consistent from setting to setting.

[Dog_O_War]

The rule says normal strength, as in "ordinary". Ordinary people are not supernatural, robotic, nor are they augmented. This is all the classification means. Note that it says right in R:UE (pg 281) that ordinary people can achieve strength scores of 17 - 30 by various means.

Thus, if a normal (ordinary) person has a PS score of 22, they can lift and carry 440 Lbs. - note that this already makes no sense.

Thus a juicer of 22 PS can lift and carry 1760Lbs. And his strength is considered augmented for damage purposes. - note that yes, this is more than a character with a 22 supernatural strength can lift, but see further.


The problem with this discrepency has nothing to do with augmented vs supernatural; a crazy, even a headhunter are considered to have augmented strength, and they cannot lift and carry more than the equivalent supernaturally strong character.

The problem lies with the OCC; only that is allowing an augmented strength character to lift more than a supernatural strength one.

And to whomever said that supernatural strength isn't neccessarily better than normal strength, you're completely wrong. All comparative relations between the two peg supernatural strength as superior. They (those with SN PS) can lift more, hit harder, and do it longer than a person of normal strength.

[Killer Cyborg]

The rule says normal strength, as in "ordinary". Ordinary people are not supernatural, robotic, nor are they augmented. This is all the classification means. Note that it says right in R:UE (pg 281) that ordinary people can achieve strength scores of 17 - 30 by various means.

Correct.
That and the other changes made in RUE have settled the matter.

And to whomever said that supernatural strength isn't neccessarily better than normal strength, you're completely wrong. All comparative relations between the two peg supernatural strength as superior. They (those with SN PS) can lift more, hit harder, and do it longer than a person of normal strength.

So can Kon-El.
Doesn't mean he's stronger.

[Elthbert]

Ok, so was there ever an 'official' word on this?

Augmented P.S. = 4x the carrying capacity of equivalent 'normal' P.S. ?
or has Supernatural P.S. been moved up to the 300x / 500x carrying/lifting capacity, Robotic 50x, and Augmented 25x?

No Juicers have a 4x carrying capacity. Crazys only get a 2x.




This is one of the things that juicers get, and if they are smart they can use it to great advantage.. I once had a player fighting a coalition patrol in a town. He became accutly aware of how few times they would have to hit him to be dead and just started hitting them with things too heavy for them to lift like cars and cement pillars. It idn't do much damage but it sure putthem out of the fight.

[TechnoGothic]

I am confused about where these numbers are coming from.
My book clearly states that normal PS carry 10x PS score, and lift twice as much. Also, robotic is 25, supernatural is 50.
Hence,
PS 22 lift 440, carry 220
Augmented PS 22 varies by class
Robotic PS 22 lift 1100, carry 550
Supernatural PS 2200, carry 1100
also, that means that while a juicer can carry 880 and lift 1760, he cant quite outdo a supernatural character of equivalent strength.

Your normal PS numbers are off by half, NPS of 17 or more is PS score x20 for carrying, not x10.

Except that it clearly states that 17+ is Extrodnary strength, not normal, so they lift 4x Normal strength, not extrodanary strength.

Yes, JUICERS are are x4 Stronger than NORMAL People.

Normal Strength = Carry x10, Lift x20
Strong Strength = Carry x20, Lift x40 (Note, Strong PS is not Normal, it is extraordinary)
Augemented Strength = Carry x20, Lift x40 (Cybernetics, Crazies have this strength)
Robotic Strength = Carry x40, Lift x80 (Juicers, Combat Cyborgs, Splicers, Robots have this strength) (This PS is x4 Normal PS see)
Supernatural Strength = Carry x50, Lift x100 (The Apex of Strength.)

Juicers are not Stronger than Supernatural beings. Why would people create Mega-Juicers, Titan Juicers, Dragon-juicers, Maxi-juicer, Ultra-Crazies, etc...if the normal versions were stronger huh. Sorry ppl this is how it works.

Now you could use HU2 Strength levels to end all questions player may come up with.

Normal PS (Same as Rifts)
Strong PS (Same as Rifts)
Extraordinary PS = Carry x100, Lift 200 (Cybernetic, Crazies, etc...)
Superhuman PS = Carry x200, Lift x300 (Robots, Full Combat Cyborgs, Juicers, Splicers etc...)
Supernatural PS = Carry x300, Lift x500 (Supernaturals, Megas, etc...)

The HU2 method solves alot of problems by stating extactly where one falls into exactly.
Plus the HU2 PS are Higher and more useful.

[TechnoGothic]

I can hardly miss the point with the difference in power exhibited between an adult dragon and a dragon shaped mecha that is the same relative size, now can I? I simply don't accept that full sized robots are any less powerful than super natural creatures, especially when these full sized robots can and do exceed the sheer mass of the biologically superior supernatural creatures, that is my main concern. And this is reflected in a smaller scale with a standard juicer being able to out lift a Mega-Juicer or supernaturally strong Titan Juicer.

If that's the can then you have an easy fix. Just expand the table for Robotic Strenght past 60 and assign the robots whatever you think is appropriete. If a machine with robotic strength is enough stronger than it's SN counterpart it will do more damage and lift more.

Therein lies the problem. or at least my problem with the situation... Why should we have to modify what's in the book for the system to work and make sense at the same time?

I guess the answer to my original question (whether there was an official word on the matter) is a flaming no. I love Rifts, and always have, but it needs some major overhauling. I think that the genre is amazing and all the information that has been published for the game does nothing but make me like the game even more... but there is a difference between leaving a game vague enough to allow for house rules - and - having house rules mandated in order for the game to work.

Heroes Unlimited solved the problem for me for PS classes.

Juicers in HU2 have Superhuman/Robotic PS.
Crazies in HU2 have Extraordinary PS

Use of the HU2 Strength charts helps stop any arguement of this type from people.
For Rifts :
Normal PS is x10/x20 period. Strong is not normal. x4 Normal is x40/x80. That is Rifts Robotic PS.