Super Nukes?

[Thinyser]

Actually, it's stated in the books that dragons have DNA. DNA is something that only appears in organic materials. Vampires are creatures of magic, yet are they made of magic materials? No. They are animated corpses. Dragons are not AI/Godswith have magic for blood, they are living things that reproduce.

They might have DNA, but they don't require food to live...just magic. They are not organic in nature. There is no carbon in their makeup.

/Sub

Actually... "Chemically, DNA consists of two long polymers of simple units called nucleotides, with backbones made of sugars and phosphate groups joined by ester bonds."
And anybody with any knowledge of chemistry knows that sugars contain carbon.

So even if its only in their DNA dragons do have carbon in their makeup... though this doesn't mean they have to follow the rules other carbon based life lives by.

[Thinyser]

Actually, it's stated in the books that dragons have DNA. DNA is something that only appears in organic materials. Vampires are creatures of magic, yet are they made of magic materials? No. They are animated corpses. Dragons are not AI/Godswith have magic for blood, they are living things that reproduce.

They might have DNA, but they don't require food to live...just magic. They are not organic in nature. There is no carbon in their makeup.

/Sub

Actually... "Chemically, DNA consists of two long polymers of simple units called nucleotides, with backbones made of sugars and phosphate groups joined by ester bonds."
And anybody with any knowledge of chemistry knows that sugars contain carbon.

So even if its only in their DNA dragons do have carbon in their makeup... though this doesn't mean they have to follow the rules other carbon based life lives by.

Wait, you're an expert on dragon physiology?

No, and don't be a smart ass.

But it logically follows that if dragons have DNA they have carbon in their makeup. Weather or not that has to make thier physiology behave a certain way I dont know and i stated that just because they are a carbon based life form doesn't mean they necessarily have to follow the rules other carbon based life forms do.

[Thinyser]

But dragons are creatures of magic. They don't have to follow any rules that we do. They're created differently. You're assuming dragons have DNA like humans. It's just as likely that maybe they're hydrogen based, or anything else. It's all just a guess really.

Yes I know I said they didnt have to work like regular creatures... how many times do I have to say that???

[Thinyser]

As previously stated, they are an otherworldly species of animal,
just like humans, and are in fact, mammals

So they are mammals... that ley eggs! that hatch into self aware beings!! That know math and language and sometimes magic without being taught!!!

They obvoiusly don't follow the normal way of things and I cant see how they are mammals as they don't nurse their young and most don't have hair.

But... IF they are mammals, then they have mammallian DNA.

[Nightmaster]

Notice how I said anything "short of a mountain" surviving the blast. That would include the earth.

Point taken.

When will you concede the point that you don't know what quantifies MDC versus SDC? Stating as fact that a Glitterboy would be destroyed by a nuke also states that you know the temperatures and duration of said temperatures necessary to 'destroy' a Glitterboy. However, since a canonical reference merely said that a Glitterboy MIGHT be destroyed by said nuke, you are clearly wrong.

/Sub

I think you are missing the point.

The point is: Would a Glitterboy be able to survive the temperatures of the core of a star?

Forget about the given damages and armor in the books and just answer that question.

[Subjugator]

A nuke is capable or incinerating a dragon instantly. Why would a Glitterboy be any stronger? There's not many things that can withstand a direct strike from a nuke. There's a lot of instances in which we don't know actual "canon" rules or references. That's when you have to use common sense.

It's capable of incinerating a BABY dragon instantly. Why would a Glitterboy be any stronger? Um, I'd hazard a guess that the materials that make it up are tougher...that's why.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

Actually... "Chemically, DNA consists of two long polymers of simple units called nucleotides, with backbones made of sugars and phosphate groups joined by ester bonds."
And anybody with any knowledge of chemistry knows that sugars contain carbon.

So even if its only in their DNA dragons do have carbon in their makeup... though this doesn't mean they have to follow the rules other carbon based life lives by.

One of the wonderful things about canonical references is that they often conflict.



/Sub

[Subjugator]

I think you are missing the point.

The point is: Would a Glitterboy be able to survive the temperatures of the core of a star?

Forget about the given damages and armor in the books and just answer that question.

You could survive those temperatures for 1/100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000th of a second.

For the brief time that a GB would be exposed to that heat, yes it would survive such temperatures. You can look and see - the books say so.

Remember, this is a fantasy world where someone has the authority to make decisions about what is and is not. In this case, it's Kev. He decided it'd generally survive the temperatures caused by a 200kt nuke.

/Sub

[glitterboy2098]

and don't forget, due to the point blank damage rule for explosions, a glitterboy standing right next to the nuke when it goes off would take double damage. which means unless you roll extremely low, a GB IS going to be destroyed in a point blank nuking using the stats from SB4. or so trashed it might have well been destroyed.

the only technological things possible able to withstand such a point blank blast. large MDC naval vessels (such as the CS carriers..though those would be thoroughly trashed in the process, or the warships of the splugorth, triax, or new navy..and even then, only the really big ships like the Ticonderoga), or places like chi-town, where we don't have stats, but reason suggests have enough SDC and MDC materials to withstand the blast (although lots of damage would be done, and many lives lost)

[Nightmaster]

I think you are missing the point.

The point is: Would a Glitterboy be able to survive the temperatures of the core of a star?

Forget about the given damages and armor in the books and just answer that question.

You could survive those temperatures for 1/100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000th of a second.

For the brief time that a GB would be exposed to that heat, yes it would survive such temperatures. You can look and see - the books say so.

Remember, this is a fantasy world where someone has the authority to make decisions about what is and is not. In this case, it's Kev. He decided it'd generally survive the temperatures caused by a 200kt nuke.

/Sub

Forgive me but as far I am concerned there is no line in the books saying that a Glitterboy would survive a 100kt nuke.

The people saying that it would (like you) are assuming it because the said damage of a 100kt nuke in the CS Navy book (2D4x100 MD) at GROUND ZERO barelly can destroy the Glitterboy that have 770 MD in the Main Body. The thing is that this dont make sense.

It dont make sense because for the metals used in the construction of the Glitterboy to be able to survive such temperatures (10+ million kelvin) they would have to be created in a forge that can generate more heat than the core of the sun, around 15+ million kelvin, and such thing is very much unlikely since even the ceramics used in nuclear reactors cant stand more than a few million kelvin.

The main point is that the damage given for the nukes in the CS Navy book are very weak. Yes the damage is high but for the purpose they are suposed to be used they cant do the job. Take your time and read the book if you can, most of the Splugorth vessels (30.000 MD) would need to take 38 nukes on direct impact, and max damage, to be sinked and what is most important the amount of each of those missiles in every CS ship is only 2 at max.

If you read the descriptions it became very clear that the damages are way low.

[azazel1024]

Actually the materials in a nuclear reactor can't withstand more then about 8,000F on the high end (graphites). Even fusion reactors can't withstand all that much in the end, the super hot plasmas are contained by magnetic fields, the actual heat is much lower and is simply radiative, if actual conductive heat was exchanged a tokomak would last a few seconds (though not super massive explosion, there isn't enough D-T in the reactor for that, though being in the same building would be determimental to your health).

Subjugator, I didn't say it was linear though if you want to say it isn't then Canon evidence in Rift Mercenaries is completely wrong. The damage is listed as stacking in a linear manner for SDC and MD explosives in the book (read up on the C4 in the book). I said that it is by a square root function, so again, using 2d4x10SDC for a stick of dynamite, 100kt nuclear weapon deals approximately 3d4x1,000MD using the square root of the yield increase. In reality is is basically a square root function, so AGAIN 3d4x1,000MD.

3d4x1,000 MD is also pretty realistic and is in keeping with the books, capable of killing just about anything that isn't super powerful and is a game changer. The damage should be to a pretty small area with much weaker damage out to a long distance.

A long range missile with a nuclear weapon does 4d6x10MD and does it to a very tiny blast radius, which no matter how you slice it is unrealistic for the blast radius, but the damage would indicate a very low sub-kiloton nuclear weapon. 2d4x100 damage for a 100kt weapon makes no sense then, cause then you'd have a weapon only about 4 times higher yield...again makes no sense. That would make the long range missile a 25kt missile, with some magical means of having on a 50ft blast radius (or whatever it is).
-Matt

[keir451]

A nuke works by molecular discorporeation, it tears apart your molecular bonds, so no matter what "item" or "being" or "armor" or whatever you are you simply cease to exist.
If you want to apply different damages-do so as you wish, but in my game not even a vampire intelligence can survive a direct nuclear strike, even if they are a mile away they are still dead. The only such supernatural threats that "might" survive a nuclear strike are the Lord of the Deep or the Tikilik(Australia), why? Because they have so much MDC as to be virtually unkillable.
The only navy ships(today) that are heavily armored are/were the Iowa class battleships, the majority of our ships are fairly thin skinned(SDC vessels, high SDC, but SDC nonetheless).
I know these facts as I am a military veteran trained in NBC warfare by the US Navy, I'm not being rude just stating where my knowledge comes from.
Palladium Books in general has quite a few damage inconsistencies, i.e; a laser that does 2d6 for a single shot, but only 4d6 for a five round pulse, according to the math that should be 1d6x10, as lasers have no kick all the 5 seperate millisecond pulses hit the same area for a compounded 1d6x10 MD, so we can see that ALL damages are broken.
Don't even get me started on a soldier in body armor attempting to survive the impact of a rounds travelling (and impacting) at Mach 5, but hese ar my house rules not anyone else's enjoy the game as you choose to, it's YOUR game.

[Subjugator]

So... you're telling me that you walked up to Kev and asked him if a Glitterboy would survive a nuke?

I try not to bug Kev about rules clarifications. It seems like it would be kinda rude for me to bug him about work when he's not actually working.

Yes. I am friends with him. Yes, I do call him on a regular basis*. No, I am not going to start asking him about the rules of the game.

Anyways, I doubt that you guys are thinking. The stats are for the PARTS of the Glitterboy, not it as a whole. If anything actually survived the nuke it would be the torso, nothing else. Everything else has less then the amount of MDC then the amount of damage from the nuke since it would do equal amounts of damage to every bit of the PA. The person inside? Dead, roasted like a sasuage in the microwave, if not radioactive ash. So it wouldn't even matter in the end if anything survived.

The person inside would be protected by the reinforced pilot's compartment. Also, he doesn't take ANY damage until both the main body and then the reinforced pilot's compartment are destroyed. In short, he'd NOT be roasted like a sausage in a microwave.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

and don't forget, due to the point blank damage rule for explosions, a glitterboy standing right next to the nuke when it goes off would take double damage. which means unless you roll extremely low, a GB IS going to be destroyed in a point blank nuking using the stats from SB4. or so trashed it might have well been destroyed.

I don't remember that rule, but if it exists as described (I assume so), then you are correct.

the only technological things possible able to withstand such a point blank blast. large MDC naval vessels (such as the CS carriers..though those would be thoroughly trashed in the process, or the warships of the splugorth, triax, or new navy..and even then, only the really big ships like the Ticonderoga), or places like chi-town, where we don't have stats, but reason suggests have enough SDC and MDC materials to withstand the blast (although lots of damage would be done, and many lives lost)

Anything that has sufficient MDC for it not to be exhausted would survive. Some of the bigger robot vehicles, lots of things from Phase world, et al, would survive just fine.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

Forgive me but as far I am concerned there is no line in the books saying that a Glitterboy would survive a 100kt nuke.

What about those lines in the books describing the damage of a 100kt nuke? They don't exist?

The people saying that it would (like you) are assuming it because the said damage of a 100kt nuke in the CS Navy book (2D4x100 MD) at GROUND ZERO barelly can destroy the Glitterboy that have 770 MD in the Main Body. The thing is that this dont make sense.

That's irrelevant. It says it, therefore it is. That you don't like it doesn't change the rules of the game.

It dont make sense because for the metals used in the construction of the Glitterboy to be able to survive such temperatures (10+ million kelvin) they would have to be created in a forge that can generate more heat than the core of the sun, around 15+ million kelvin, and such thing is very much unlikely since even the ceramics used in nuclear reactors cant stand more than a few million kelvin.

Or they have to have a chemical reaction that takes place after forging that makes them more resistant to damage. Concrete isn't hard and strong until after such a chemical reaction takes place.

Also, you're saying that the book's rules don't apply (actually, you're saying they don't exist) simply because they don't make sense to you. The rules as written are quite clear - a Glitterboy can take ground zero of a 100kt nuke and survive just fine. Your not liking it is irrelevant.

The main point is that the damage given for the nukes in the CS Navy book are very weak.

Irrelevant. The rules say it. The truth is that you don't like the rules, not that the rules don't say it.

Yes the damage is high but for the purpose they are suposed to be used they cant do the job. Take your time and read the book if you can, most of the Splugorth vessels (30.000 MD) would need to take 38 nukes on direct impact, and max damage, to be sinked and what is most important the amount of each of those missiles in every CS ship is only 2 at max.

...and?

If you read the descriptions it became very clear that the damages are way low.

If you read the descriptions, that is the damage that they do. You're saying the books don't say what they say because you don't like what they say. I'd hate to see you as a judge.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

Straight from SB4. Doesn't say baby dragon, so I'd have to assume it means an adult dragon. That's a literal answer btw, with no actual thought or canon/factual or even speculation to it.

It says 'a dragon'. Baby dragons are dragons. Since a more firmly canonical resource (the actual damages being referenced) specifically shows that it will not vaporize an adult dragon, it must be assumed that the dragons it would vaporize are babies.

If one says, "This missile is capable of taking out a tank!" and then one later says, "The armor penetration value of this missile is x versus armor types a, b, and c", and then goes on to say, "...however, against armor type d, its penetration value is only 1/10th what it is for the prior three armors." and when .1x is insufficient to penetrate the armor of a new tank with armor type d, it stands to reason that it is NOT presumed to be able to take out the newer and tougher tank.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

A nuke works by molecular discorporeation, it tears apart your molecular bonds, so no matter what "item" or "being" or "armor" or whatever you are you simply cease to exist.
If you want to apply different damages-do so as you wish, but in my game not even a vampire intelligence can survive a direct nuclear strike, even if they are a mile away they are still dead. The only such supernatural threats that "might" survive a nuclear strike are the Lord of the Deep or the Tikilik(Australia), why? Because they have so much MDC as to be virtually unkillable.
The only navy ships(today) that are heavily armored are/were the Iowa class battleships, the majority of our ships are fairly thin skinned(SDC vessels, high SDC, but SDC nonetheless).
I know these facts as I am a military veteran trained in NBC warfare by the US Navy, I'm not being rude just stating where my knowledge comes from.
Palladium Books in general has quite a few damage inconsistencies, i.e; a laser that does 2d6 for a single shot, but only 4d6 for a five round pulse, according to the math that should be 1d6x10, as lasers have no kick all the 5 seperate millisecond pulses hit the same area for a compounded 1d6x10 MD, so we can see that ALL damages are broken.
Don't even get me started on a soldier in body armor attempting to survive the impact of a rounds travelling (and impacting) at Mach 5, but hese ar my house rules not anyone else's enjoy the game as you choose to, it's YOUR game.

Real life != the game

/Sub

[Nightmaster]

Forgive me but as far I am concerned there is no line in the books saying that a Glitterboy would survive a 100kt nuke.

What about those lines in the books describing the damage of a 100kt nuke? They don't exist?

Dude... you are funny, thats all I will say

The people saying that it would (like you) are assuming it because the said damage of a 100kt nuke in the CS Navy book (2D4x100 MD) at GROUND ZERO barelly can destroy the Glitterboy that have 770 MD in the Main Body. The thing is that this dont make sense.

That's irrelevant. It says it, therefore it is. That you don't like it doesn't change the rules of the game.

Irrelevant is the fact that you are forgeting common sense (something Kev himself have said takes precedent over the rules) when you defend that a 30ft power armor can survive a blast that generates enought heat that its comparable to the core of the sun.

It dont make sense because for the metals used in the construction of the Glitterboy to be able to survive such temperatures (10+ million kelvin) they would have to be created in a forge that can generate more heat than the core of the sun, around 15+ million kelvin, and such thing is very much unlikely since even the ceramics used in nuclear reactors cant stand more than a few million kelvin.

Or they have to have a chemical reaction that takes place after forging that makes them more resistant to damage. Concrete isn't hard and strong until after such a chemical reaction takes place.

Also, you're saying that the book's rules don't apply (actually, you're saying they don't exist) simply because they don't make sense to you. The rules as written are quite clear - a Glitterboy can take ground zero of a 100kt nuke and survive just fine. Your not liking it is irrelevant.

Point taken about the possibility of a chemical reaction being the reason of the super armor of the Glitterboy but again your grasp of common sense is quite lacking.

Irrelevant is your inability to use it to understand what I am saying.

If you read the descriptions it became very clear that the damages are way low.

If you read the descriptions, that is the damage that they do. You're saying the books don't say what they say because you don't like what they say. I'd hate to see you as a judge.

/Sub

To that I will simple quote this:

Rifts Sourcebook 4: CS Navy, pag 48

...Just one of these "fish" has the capability to sink virtually any vessel on earth. All CSN combatants of frigate size or larger have been equipped with one or two Mk108 Fireflies to eliminate Splugorth and other alien capital ships if such a vessel were to pose an immediate threat to a CS warship or the Coalition itself.

Rifts Worldbook 7: Underseas, pag 170
Horune Dream Ship:
Main Body - 20.000 MDC

Rifts Worldbook 7: Underseas, pag 185
Splugorth Sea Skimmer
Main Body - 30.000 MDC

If that alone cant make you see how underpowered are the nukes described in the book I dont know what can.

[Subjugator]

Irrelevant is the fact that you are forgeting common sense (something Kev himself have said takes precedent over the rules) when you defend that a 30ft power armor can survive a blast that generates enought heat that its comparable to the core of the sun.

Actually, Kev does not say that 'common sense' has precedence over the rules, he says that GM ruling does. The rules as written say something, and they have meaning. How you put it into your game is up to you, but if you deviate from what has been written down then you are not playing with the rules as written, which is the only rational thing we can argue, since you can turn the rules into anything you want in your game.

Point taken about the possibility of a chemical reaction being the reason of the super armor of the Glitterboy but again your grasp of common sense is quite lacking.

Irrelevant is your inability to use it to understand what I am saying.

I understand what you're saying. You're saying the books don't say something because you disagree with what is said.

To that I will simple quote this:

Rifts Sourcebook 4: CS Navy, pag 48

...Just one of these "fish" has the capability to sink virtually any vessel on earth. All CSN combatants of frigate size or larger have been equipped with one or two Mk108 Fireflies to eliminate Splugorth and other alien capital ships if such a vessel were to pose an immediate threat to a CS warship or the Coalition itself.

Rifts Worldbook 7: Underseas, pag 170
Horune Dream Ship:
Main Body - 20.000 MDC

Rifts Worldbook 7: Underseas, pag 185
Splugorth Sea Skimmer
Main Body - 30.000 MDC

If that alone cant make you see how underpowered are the nukes described in the book I dont know what can.

I'm not arguing that they're not underpowered. You're saying that the rules don't say what they say though. I don't care if the rules say 1 + 1 = 3. If they say that, and you say they don't say that, then you're wrong. The rules can be wrong when compared to real life (though you are making gross assumptions about the qualities of the materials in question, since we don't know what qualifies as megadamage heat), but they are nonetheless the rules as written regardless of how they apply to real life.

Kev could, as an extension of 'publisher's fiat', say that the heat of the sun does 1 SDC per century of exposure at a two inch range. If he did so, the rules as written would say that, and the rules as written would reflect that. It'd be wrong when compared to real life, but the rules as written would nonetheless reflect that.

/Sub

[Nightmaster]

Irrelevant is the fact that you are forgeting common sense (something Kev himself have said takes precedent over the rules) when you defend that a 30ft power armor can survive a blast that generates enought heat that its comparable to the core of the sun.

Actually, Kev does not say that 'common sense' has precedence over the rules, he says that GM ruling does. The rules as written say something, and they have meaning. How you put it into your game is up to you, but if you deviate from what has been written down then you are not playing with the rules as written, which is the only rational thing we can argue, since you can turn the rules into anything you want in your game.

Point taken about the possibility of a chemical reaction being the reason of the super armor of the Glitterboy but again your grasp of common sense is quite lacking.

Irrelevant is your inability to use it to understand what I am saying.

I understand what you're saying. You're saying the books don't say something because you disagree with what is said.

To that I will simple quote this:

Rifts Sourcebook 4: CS Navy, pag 48

...Just one of these "fish" has the capability to sink virtually any vessel on earth. All CSN combatants of frigate size or larger have been equipped with one or two Mk108 Fireflies to eliminate Splugorth and other alien capital ships if such a vessel were to pose an immediate threat to a CS warship or the Coalition itself.

Rifts Worldbook 7: Underseas, pag 170
Horune Dream Ship:
Main Body - 20.000 MDC

Rifts Worldbook 7: Underseas, pag 185
Splugorth Sea Skimmer
Main Body - 30.000 MDC

If that alone cant make you see how underpowered are the nukes described in the book I dont know what can.

I'm not arguing that they're not underpowered. You're saying that the rules don't say what they say though. I don't care if the rules say 1 + 1 = 3. If they say that, and you say they don't say that, then you're wrong. The rules can be wrong when compared to real life (though you are making gross assumptions about the qualities of the materials in question, since we don't know what qualifies as megadamage heat), but they are nonetheless the rules as written regardless of how they apply to real life.

Kev could, as an extension of 'publisher's fiat', say that the heat of the sun does 1 SDC per century of exposure at a two inch range. If he did so, the rules as written would say that, and the rules as written would reflect that. It'd be wrong when compared to real life, but the rules as written would nonetheless reflect that.

/Sub

Do you understand that the main point of all this discussion is the fact that the damages listed are so low that not even underpowered for the purpose they have but also destroying a single Glitterboy could not be possible for a 100kt nuke?

The point is not about the rules but about damage that is way too low. If the given damage was 3D4x1000 MD this whole discussion would not be taking place.

[Crazy Lou]

Actually the whole discussion emerged when somebody said that

Anything that a nuke lands on will be destroyed, short of a mountain. If a nuke landed on a Glitterboy's head, he'd vaporize instantly. So would a dragon

which per the rules is not true. So we started pointing out why that was wrong.

[Crazy Lou]

Anyways, I doubt that you guys are thinking. The stats are for the PARTS of the Glitterboy, not it as a whole. If anything actually survived the nuke it would be the torso, nothing else. Everything else has less then the amount of MDC then the amount of damage from the nuke since it would do equal amounts of damage to every bit of the PA. The person inside? Dead, roasted like a sasuage in the microwave, if not radioactive ash. So it wouldn't even matter in the end if anything survived.

Sorry, to bring this up but it's in regards to a question now occuring in two threads. I always thought that missiles and explosions hit all relevant parts of a target within the blast radius and did half damage to all parts that weren't the direct hit, but I was recently opposed by someone in another thread regarding this, saying that there's some technicality rule saying that only the main body or whatever's directly hit takes damage, and the half damage blast radius is for other targets. I think I'll start a new thread on this issue though. I'm just mentioning it here since I'd like to note my question of the statement.

[Crazy Lou]

and don't forget, due to the point blank damage rule for explosions, a glitterboy standing right next to the nuke when it goes off would take double damage. which means unless you roll extremely low, a GB IS going to be destroyed in a point blank nuking using the stats from SB4. or so trashed it might have well been destroyed.

Isn't that technically an optional rule? I don't remember where it is or anything, but it sounds familiar. It might be some official rule that I never really registered before though. Would you mind pointing me to where it is?

[Crazy Lou]

I think you are missing the point.

The point is: Would a Glitterboy be able to survive the temperatures of the core of a star?

Forget about the given damages and armor in the books and just answer that question.

You could survive those temperatures for 1/100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000th of a second.

For the brief time that a GB would be exposed to that heat, yes it would survive such temperatures. You can look and see - the books say so.

Remember, this is a fantasy world where someone has the authority to make decisions about what is and is not. In this case, it's Kev. He decided it'd generally survive the temperatures caused by a 200kt nuke.

/Sub

Forgive me but as far I am concerned there is no line in the books saying that a Glitterboy would survive a 100kt nuke.

The people saying that it would (like you) are assuming it because the said damage of a 100kt nuke in the CS Navy book (2D4x100 MD) at GROUND ZERO barelly can destroy the Glitterboy that have 770 MD in the Main Body. The thing is that this dont make sense.

It dont make sense because for the metals used in the construction of the Glitterboy to be able to survive such temperatures (10+ million kelvin) they would have to be created in a forge that can generate more heat than the core of the sun, around 15+ million kelvin, and such thing is very much unlikely since even the ceramics used in nuclear reactors cant stand more than a few million kelvin.

[/quote]

Well, unfortunately lots of things that are canon rules don't make sense. But they're still canon rules, so some doublethink is necessary to discuss them sometimes. Sorry.

Also, the GB's armor is by canon actually constructed/assembled with a special technique on the molecular level. Which is why you can make such awesome armor w/o a forge or similar that's millions of degrees.

I'm going to lump a couple things together for my next bit:

The main point is that the damage given for the nukes in the CS Navy book are very weak. Yes the damage is high but for the purpose they are suposed to be used they cant do the job. Take your time and read the book if you can, most of the Splugorth vessels (30.000 MD) would need to take 38 nukes on direct impact, and max damage, to be sinked and what is most important the amount of each of those missiles in every CS ship is only 2 at max.

If you read the descriptions it became very clear that the damages are way low.

...Just one of these "fish" has the capability to sink virtually any vessel on earth. All CSN combatants of frigate size or larger have been equipped with one or two Mk108 Fireflies to eliminate Splugorth and other alien capital ships if such a vessel were to pose an immediate threat to a CS warship or the Coalition itself.

Rifts Worldbook 7: Underseas, pag 170
Horune Dream Ship:
Main Body - 20.000 MDC

Rifts Worldbook 7: Underseas, pag 185
Splugorth Sea Skimmer
Main Body - 30.000 MDC

If that alone cant make you see how underpowered are the nukes described in the book I dont know what can.

Or an explanation would be that the CS High Command doesn't realized how absurdly tough the Sploog Sea Skimmer and similar class vessels and the Horune Dream Ship, etc actually are. Nowhere does it say they've actually tried to fight one before, so they probably just figure that if you double tap anything with a 200 kT nuke that it ought to die. Too bad for them they're wrong.

Also note that it says VIRTUALLY any vessel on earth. While it mentions Sploog and other alien capital ships as targets, it could easily be that nothing from the CS that's run into the REAL capital ships has ever made it back, so the smaller, but still awesome stuff from the Sploogs are thought to be "capital ships" because they were so tough. The virtually part of the description would support such an interpretation.

[Crazy Lou]

A nuke works by molecular discorporeation, it tears apart your molecular bonds, so no matter what "item" or "being" or "armor" or whatever you are you simply cease to exist.
If you want to apply different damages-do so as you wish, but in my game not even a vampire intelligence can survive a direct nuclear strike, even if they are a mile away they are still dead. The only such supernatural threats that "might" survive a nuclear strike are the Lord of the Deep or the Tikilik(Australia), why? Because they have so much MDC as to be virtually unkillable.
The only navy ships(today) that are heavily armored are/were the Iowa class battleships, the majority of our ships are fairly thin skinned(SDC vessels, high SDC, but SDC nonetheless).
I know these facts as I am a military veteran trained in NBC warfare by the US Navy, I'm not being rude just stating where my knowledge comes from.
Palladium Books in general has quite a few damage inconsistencies, i.e; a laser that does 2d6 for a single shot, but only 4d6 for a five round pulse, according to the math that should be 1d6x10, as lasers have no kick all the 5 seperate millisecond pulses hit the same area for a compounded 1d6x10 MD, so we can see that ALL damages are broken.
Don't even get me started on a soldier in body armor attempting to survive the impact of a rounds travelling (and impacting) at Mach 5, but hese ar my house rules not anyone else's enjoy the game as you choose to, it's YOUR game.

Real life != the game

/Sub

First of all, Sub's right, RL isn't the game.

Secondly, your bolded (mine) explanation of how nukes work is utterly incorrect anyway. Nukes do indeed cause a small bit of matter to seemingly vanish, by converting it completely and directly into energy (heat, sound, light, radiation, etc). However, your understanding is flawed. The amount of matter which is "lost" is an infinitesimally tiny amount, and it is only lost from the radioactive particles undergoing fission, not any of the surrounding material within the huge blast zone. The damage a nuke does is due to the absurd amount of energy released from the loss of that tiny amount of mass only.

Also, it has nothing to do with molecular bonds. The forces overcome in fission are nuclear binding forces (or just nuclear forces). The neutrons are fired at high velocities at the nucleus of very dense, highly unstable radioactive atoms (usually enriched weapons grade plutonium). The impact of the neutrons with the nucleus breaks apart the nucleus, destroying the atom, and causing more neutrons to be fired around, which, in the case of a nuclear weapon, is engineered to cause an uncontrolled chain reaction to cause that event to occur a ton of times and release an unfocused blast of destructive energy. There's more to it of course, but that's all that's really important for general explanation.

Destroying molecular bonds wouldn't cause you to "cease to exist" by the way either. The matter comprising your molecules if all the bonds between your component molecules were broken would still be there, just reduced to a soupy mess. The only way to truly cause something to "cease to exist" is to take an equivalent mass of anti-matter and bring it into contact with something. Of course, if uncontrolled, such as by throwing anti-matter at someone, the beginnings of the reaction as contact was first made would release so much energy that the rest of the target would be blown apart and away from the target, and the anti-matter "thrown" would also be blown away. Of course, you'd have to figure out how to throw anti-matter without it coming in contact with the air first, but still in a weaponized form (which is impossible w/o the spell annihilate, because it's magic, or without building anti-matter into a weapon, which would preclude a direct contact with the target anyway -- thought that'd hardly matter effectively).

[glitterboy2098]

Crazy lou is right. nuclear blasts inflict damagethrough two vectors.
thermal pulse, and blast front.

the thermal pulse make up about 35% of the total energy released by the bomb. the pulse only lasts a fraction of a second, but near the point of detonation, where the energy levels can reach 125 joules per square centimeter or more, anything flammable will burts into flame, and if enough is present, cause a firestorm. but things that aren't flamable will usually just be discoloured or partly melted. while the pulse is strong, its too short for most stuff to absorb sufficent energy to melt or vaporise. especially since many materials will reflect some of the energy. (and this is SDC stuff. MDC stuff would, generally due to molecular structure and/or density [or whatever it is that gives them their toughness], take even more energy to effect.)

the second vector, the blast front, usually has about 40% of the energy. it's basically just where the energy released is absorbed by the surrounding medium (air, water, dirt..) and shockwaves propogate through as a result. in air, it results in an expanding ring of high desnity air, essentually a "fist" of wind that will blow down things, crack walls, shatter windows, etc. while this is using more of the energy from the reaction, it's actually weaker than it seems, because the medum will absorb alot of the energy in the process of forming the blast front.

the rest of the energy is in the form of various types of radiation. which don't do immediate damage, but will cause materials fatigue, cancers, and other such long term damage.

generally the actually damaging parts of the blast are over so fast that they can't effect tougher materials.



one thing ot keep in mind about the descriptions of using nukes ot kill ships though..the thermal pulse would flash boil alot of seawater when it goes off, which means bouyancy drops. possibly enough to sink a ship. water also propogates shockwaves better than air, so even airbursts over water can result in damages to ships below the waterline. blasts underwater will inflict much higher damage to everything around it due ot this effect.

[Subjugator]

Do you understand that the main point of all this discussion is the fact that the damages listed are so low that not even underpowered for the purpose they have but also destroying a single Glitterboy could not be possible for a 100kt nuke?

The point is not about the rules but about damage that is way too low. If the given damage was 3D4x1000 MD this whole discussion would not be taking place.

Do you understand that you used words, that those words mean something, and that the words you used meant something that was untrue?

I agree that nukes are underpowered. I'm just saying that the rules as written say that they will not necessarily destroy a Glitterboy.

/Sub

[Nightmaster]

Or an explanation would be that the CS High Command doesn't realized how absurdly tough the Sploog Sea Skimmer and similar class vessels and the Horune Dream Ship, etc actually are. Nowhere does it say they've actually tried to fight one before, so they probably just figure that if you double tap anything with a 200 kT nuke that it ought to die. Too bad for them they're wrong.

Also note that it says VIRTUALLY any vessel on earth. While it mentions Sploog and other alien capital ships as targets, it could easily be that nothing from the CS that's run into the REAL capital ships has ever made it back, so the smaller, but still awesome stuff from the Sploogs are thought to be "capital ships" because they were so tough. The virtually part of the description would support such an interpretation.

Lets see... so the CS High Command dont know how weak their nukes are? Lets take a look at their own navy and other examples of ships that are not Splugorth or Horune.

Rifts Sourcebook 4: CS Navy, pag 65
CSS James Bay-Class Iron Heart Destroyers
Main Body - 1.450 MD

Rifts Sourcebook 4: CS Navy, pag 66
CSS Revenge-Class Refitted Pre-Rifts Destroyers
Main Body - 520 MD

Rifts Sourcebook 4: CS Navy, pag 68
CSN Refitted Wasp-Class Amphibious Warfare Ships
Main Body - 8.000 MD

Rifts Sourcebook 4: CS Navy, pag 81
The Joseph Prosek Series Refitted Pre-Rifts Aircraft Carriers
Main Body - 12.000 MD

Rifts Sourcebook 4: CS Navy, pag 83
CSS Chi-Town-Class CSN Multi-Purpose Aircraft Carrier
Main Body - 13.000 MD

Rifts Mercenaries, pag 118
Triton Patrol Boat
Main Body - 650 MD

Rifts Mercenaries, pag 120
Sea King Missile Cruiser
Main Body - 2.600 MD

Those are the ships that the CS most probably know all capacities and from that list only 2 of then would be destroyed by a 100kt nuke as presented by the CS Navy book and one of then, the Triton Patrol Boat, like the Glitterboy have a very good chance of survival against the Mk108 Firefly.

All others would survive with easy a direct impact unless a critical hit is scored. Hell even the own CS ships would not be sinked by those nukes....

[Subjugator]

Those are the ships that the CS most probably know all capacities and from that list only 2 of then would be destroyed by a 100kt nuke as presented by the CS Navy book and one of then, the Triton Patrol Boat, like the Glitterboy have a very good chance of survival against the Mk108 Firefly.

All others would survive with easy a direct impact unless a critical hit is scored. Hell even the own CS ships would not be sinked by those nukes....

To be clear, I am not arguing that the nukes are just fine (though they *could* be). I'm arguing that what you said about the rules is untrue.

/Sub

[Crazy Lou]

Or an explanation would be that the CS High Command doesn't realized how absurdly tough the Sploog Sea Skimmer and similar class vessels and the Horune Dream Ship, etc actually are. Nowhere does it say they've actually tried to fight one before, so they probably just figure that if you double tap anything with a 200 kT nuke that it ought to die. Too bad for them they're wrong.

Also note that it says VIRTUALLY any vessel on earth. While it mentions Sploog and other alien capital ships as targets, it could easily be that nothing from the CS that's run into the REAL capital ships has ever made it back, so the smaller, but still awesome stuff from the Sploogs are thought to be "capital ships" because they were so tough. The virtually part of the description would support such an interpretation.

Lets see... so the CS High Command dont know how weak their nukes are? Lets take a look at their own navy and other examples of ships that are not Splugorth or Horune.

Rifts Sourcebook 4: CS Navy, pag 65
CSS James Bay-Class Iron Heart Destroyers
Main Body - 1.450 MD

Rifts Sourcebook 4: CS Navy, pag 66
CSS Revenge-Class Refitted Pre-Rifts Destroyers
Main Body - 520 MD

Rifts Sourcebook 4: CS Navy, pag 68
CSN Refitted Wasp-Class Amphibious Warfare Ships
Main Body - 8.000 MD

Rifts Sourcebook 4: CS Navy, pag 81
The Joseph Prosek Series Refitted Pre-Rifts Aircraft Carriers
Main Body - 12.000 MD

Rifts Sourcebook 4: CS Navy, pag 83
CSS Chi-Town-Class CSN Multi-Purpose Aircraft Carrier
Main Body - 13.000 MD

Rifts Mercenaries, pag 118
Triton Patrol Boat
Main Body - 650 MD

Rifts Mercenaries, pag 120
Sea King Missile Cruiser
Main Body - 2.600 MD

Those are the ships that the CS most probably know all capacities and from that list only 2 of then would be destroyed by a 100kt nuke as presented by the CS Navy book and one of then, the Triton Patrol Boat, like the Glitterboy have a very good chance of survival against the Mk108 Firefly.

All others would survive with easy a direct impact unless a critical hit is scored. Hell even the own CS ships would not be sinked by those nukes....

Alright, fair enough, then perhaps they're overestimating the devastation their nukes will inflict. All I know is that flavor text like "this is cool enough to sink almost anything out there" loses when faced with the actual statted out stuff. It's the same how lots of classes are like "bursters are the most feared psychic after the mind melter" or whatever (that's not a direct quote, but I remember it says something like that), but there are plenty of more powerful and scarier psychic classes. Many class descriptions, weapon descriptions, etc are like that and talk a bigger talk than they really can back up. I guess that's just one more example here.

[keir451]

I agree, but short of Palladium rewriting the rules for some of their listed damages/OCCs(again) the only thing we the players/GM's of this system can do is adjust those damages as we see fit and accept the fact that Kevin has his own concept of "game balance " that is not necessarily the same as ours.
I, for one, will still play Rifts because next to D&D 3.0 it is still one of my favorite games despite its faults.

[Crazy Lou]

As a side note, I think it'd be more appropriate to say that kevin has NO sense of game balance and doesn't really want or believe there is a need for one (and I actually agree). It's not like the real world is balanced, and lacking balance just means that you have a greater range of power levels at which you can easily set your game.

[azazel1024]

To me the biggest 'damning' thing is the text compared to the stats of the nukes. The text states that they are lot more powerful then the stats say they are. I consider that 'real life' in addition to PB rules (or at least PB empirical evidence) based on how to scale up how powerful an explosion is AND the text of the passage on the CS nukes all basically say that the nukes are much more powerful then the stats are. I believe 3 over 1 any day. It also works better for game balance. The CS nukes are pretty much never used and are meant to be a game changer (IE the CS can never be defeated, because the CS is to be loved and admired as the villian and plot driver it is).

As to damage your certainly right Glitterboy2098, but that doesn't include the point of impact. Right at the point of impact and the sorrounding few dozen to couple of hundred feet sustain much, much higher amounts of heat and force then things do even say 1,000ft away. Like any explosion the force drops off with about the square of the distance. Something that can crack 3 inches of concrete at 50ft from the blast center can maybe break a windshield and knock down a person at 200ft. Something that can tear a tree from the ground, throw cars and knock down buildings at a mile is going to crush tanks at 1,000ft and at 100ft destroy just about anything.

A nuke going off at 0ft AGL is going to leave a very, very impressive crater compressing and vaporizing hundreds (thousands?) of tons of dirt and rock. Just looking at game balance and real life a 100kt weapon should do in the low thousands of MD to what it hits and immediate blast radius, say 100ft. Then out to say 1,000ft it should be fairly low, say 3d4x10MD damage and the maybe 3d6MD out to maybe 1 mile and then maybe 3d4x10 SD out to maybe 3 miles.

One thing to also keep in mind, most creatures appear to be vulnerable to radiation damage in rifts. Specific mention goes to the U rounds used by Triax/NGR. A nuclear weapon sleats out so much gamma radiation that it will kill most people out to a couple of miles within a few days from radiation poisoning. I'd suspect since radiation appears to effect supernatural creatures (most, at least minor supernatural creatures) that the radiation damage to ORGANIC creatures should be on the order of tens if not hundreds of MD (considering the effect that just having a U round in the body causes, a 100kt nuke produces RM exposures many thousands of times higher).
-Matt

[glitterboy2098]

keep in mind though, a the effects of a nuke will be largely blunt impact, not peircing. a railgun does damage by punching through the armor, or trying to and knocking off a divot. a nuke blast would just shove it around. (just like the HE blasts of normal missiles..or regular explosives..both of which do less damage than the implied energy involved should on paper)

so it's not really going ot dent up the armor much. hell, in nuclear tests, most structures failed not because they melted or broke, but because the pressure wave caused them to fall apart. in some of the tests in nevada, stuff parked right next to the bombs was found intact, just thrown quite a ways. when the energy is going into momentum, it's not going to cause as much gross damage to the parts.

a GB hit by the SB4 nukes might not be 'destroyed' in the sense of depleted MDC (IE: full of holes), but it will certainly be knocked over, thrown dozens or hundreds of feet, and take lots of internal damage to systems (see the conversion book optional rules)..and since it's a suit of armor, the pilot is likely dead too (as per the "damage through armor" rules..

damage value is only part of the story with explosions, and frankly, it's a small part. alot of it is the intangibles. knockback. concussion. the jarring loose of wires and such.

[azazel1024]

Certainly, but when really close/direct hit there is out right crush damage that is going to occur, or vaporization from intense heat (by vaporization I mean actual exceeding of the boiling point of a material, I don't mean ceasing to exist) and lots of slaggification (technical term I just invented). My biggest point is an actual direct hit does a lot more damage then the blast/heat/radiation does from a few dozen feet away even.
-Matt

[Elthbert]

Don't even get me started on a soldier in body armor attempting to survive the impact of a rounds travelling (and impacting) at Mach 5, ...

This is notthe first time you or others have broght this up, I don't understand this objection. Lets see if I remember this correctly, A GB round is 3 lbs, and splits into 200 seperate flechettes, assuming 98% is actual projectile that means that each flechette is about 103 grains, smallr than a 7.62 x 39 round. So this projectile is ramped up to MACH 5 or about 5500 feet per second( at Mach being about 750, I know it changes depending on air density and such), that means each projectile hits with 6913.2 ft-lbs of energy. Now I have always assumed that each projetile from a GB did 1 MD and the 3d6x 10 was really a calculation of how many flechettes hit. Judging from the calcualtion previously of how much energy a 1d4 MD round had that seems now to fit in perfectly. So assuming that 180 flechettes strike a total energy of 1,244,376 ftlbs would be delivered on target. A trtemendous amount of energy, particluarly bound up in tiny projectiles as it is. However, my 1977 dodge truck wieghs 6500 lbs at 70 mph an impact would create 1,064,700ftlbs of energy. If I ramp it up to 80mph ( yeas shewill still do 80) the 77 dodge beats out the total energy of a GBs boom gun at at 1,390,700 ftlbs of energy. While the individual strikes of projectiles are going to tear apart most targets the total energy, even of a 180 MD shot should not kill inside armour, unless the strike of an SDC car would as well.Certianly people survive car accidents ands they are only covered in SDC materials for protection.

[Thinyser]

With as much quantity is produced in the Rifts megaverse there will always be inconsistancy both in self contradiction/contraction of the real world as well as pure illogical crazyness.

Though I love Rifts and all of Palladium's products it does get a little old at times to fix things as you go, but I still prefer their stuff over DnD (2nd and 3rd never played higher than 3 was to far into Palladium by then!) or Vampire or Earthdawn... and though i cannot say for sure but I would guess the only thing that would beat it would be if Rifts was fixed to my specifications without me lifting a finger.
Untill that happens I'll have to fix the broken stuff that is part of what I want to play with and deal.

Its Fantasy. Yes it sucks to be forcably brought out of our cozy little participation in it to fix an error in the mechanics of our beloved Rifts Megaverse but IMO its not that high a price to pay.

I might gripe a about some stuff but overall nobody has earn my loyalty like Palladium.

[keir451]

My point on body armor vs. GB boom gun is that the rounds are travelling 5 times the speed of sound so they would realistically punch right through most objects. A soldier in MDC body armor is still not immune to the kinetic impact of fast moving objects, and while some people do survive being struck by a car, the damge done(depending on varying factors)can often times require majorly intensive surgery and and a very long hospital stay. Even in MDC armor a round the size of a 7.62 round has MORE kinetic force than your truck does at 80 mph, so while the armor might survive the kinetic force is still transferred to the wearer(the same way kinetic force still applies to drivers), the soldier is lifted off his/ her feet by the impact and flung several hundred feet before he/ she slams into the (very) hard ground. The rounds have already exceeded terminal velocity, so the kinetic force that is transferred through the armor to the wearer crushes the wearers internal organs. Now having said that, said soldier in said body armor COULD survive being hit by your truck as IT has NOT reached terminal velocity and the armors "padding" or "gel Layers" CAN handle that kind of impact with minimal or light damage to the wearer.
Alternately let's say that I drop said soldier in the said body armor from the top of the Empire State building, do you honestly think he will survive the fall? If a penny can reach terminal velocity from that height, then so can a person. The weight of the armor merely adds to the total falling weight. And that is technically less than the Mach 5 speed of the GB Boom Gun.The ESB is "only" 1,453 ft and 8 9/16 in. tall, thats nearly the length of the SDF-1, a Boom Guns MAX range is more than that.

[Nightmaster]

My point on body armor vs. GB boom gun is that the rounds are travelling 5 times the speed of sound so they would realistically punch right through most objects. A soldier in MDC body armor is still not immune to the kinetic impact of fast moving objects, and while some people do survive being struck by a car, the damge done(depending on varying factors)can often times require majorly intensive surgery and and a very long hospital stay. Even in MDC armor a round the size of a 7.62 round has MORE kinetic force than your truck does at 80 mph, so while the armor might survive the kinetic force is still transferred to the wearer(the same way kinetic force still applies to drivers), the soldier is lifted off his/ her feet by the impact and flung several hundred feet before he/ she slams into the (very) hard ground. The rounds have already exceeded terminal velocity, so the kinetic force that is transferred through the armor to the wearer crushes the wearers internal organs. Now having said that, said soldier in said body armor COULD survive being hit by your truck as IT has NOT reached terminal velocity and the armors "padding" or "gel Layers" CAN handle that kind of impact with minimal or light damage to the wearer.
Alternately let's say that I drop said soldier in the said body armor from the top of the Empire State building, do you honestly think he will survive the fall? If a penny can reach terminal velocity from that height, then so can a person. The weight of the armor merely adds to the total falling weight. And that is technically less than the Mach 5 speed of the GB Boom Gun.The ESB is "only" 1,453 ft and 8 9/16 in. tall, thats nearly the length of the SDF-1, a Boom Guns MAX range is more than that.

The funny thing is that today bullets travel way more fast than Mach 5 and even today railguns (the ones being made in universities all around the globe) already hit the speed of 4km/s or 2,5mp/s and that is a LOT more fast than Mach 5.

[Subjugator]

The funny thing is that today bullets travel way more fast than Mach 5 and even today railguns (the ones being made in universities all around the globe) already hit the speed of 4km/s or 2,5mp/s and that is a LOT more fast than Mach 5.

Regular bullets fired from hand weapons do not go anywhere NEAR mach 5. The .220 Swift, which is the fastest regular bullet I know of, goes mach 3.73 on the fastest standard load I can find.

/Sub

[Blight]

1/2 stick of Dynamite
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1UnR3gZM8M
Thats less than 1 md,10 to 30 points of damage (1 stick 1D6x10 sdc)

50 LBS Dynamite
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t__-wL_UDwE
2d6x10x50 (1000 to 6000sdc) 10 to 60 mdc
A heavy rifle or light cannon in rifts a boom gun would be 3x more powerful,

1300 lbs of Dynamite
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfmNErY0FIU
2d6x10x1300 (26000 to 156000sdc) or 260 to 1560 mdc

1 ton Tons of Dynamite
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAYVMXYYAp4
2d6x10x2000 (40000 to 240000sdc) or 400 to 2400 mdc


100 Tons of Dynamite or 1 kiloton
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I98YuLvTsAs
2d6x10x2000x100 (4000000 to 24000000sdc) or 40000 to 240000 MDC

50 megaton
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwlNPhn64TA
I am not even going to do the math.
I thought a visual would be cool I hope i got my math right.

[Elthbert]

My point on body armor vs. GB boom gun is that the rounds are travelling 5 times the speed of sound so they would realistically punch right through most objects. A soldier in MDC body armor is still not immune to the kinetic impact of fast moving objects, and while some people do survive being struck by a car, the damge done(depending on varying factors)can often times require majorly intensive surgery and and a very long hospital stay. Even in MDC armor a round the size of a 7.62 round has MORE kinetic force than your truck does at 80 mph, so while the armor might survive the kinetic force is still transferred to the wearer(the same way kinetic force still applies to drivers), the soldier is lifted off his/ her feet by the impact and flung several hundred feet before he/ she slams into the (very) hard ground. The rounds have already exceeded terminal velocity, so the kinetic force that is transferred through the armor to the wearer crushes the wearers internal organs. Now having said that, said soldier in said body armor COULD survive being hit by your truck as IT has NOT reached terminal velocity and the armors "padding" or "gel Layers" CAN handle that kind of impact with minimal or light damage to the wearer.
Alternately let's say that I drop said soldier in the said body armor from the top of the Empire State building, do you honestly think he will survive the fall? If a penny can reach terminal velocity from that height, then so can a person. The weight of the armor merely adds to the total falling weight. And that is technically less than the Mach 5 speed of the GB Boom Gun.The ESB is "only" 1,453 ft and 8 9/16 in. tall, thats nearly the length of the SDF-1, a Boom Guns MAX range is more than that.

No A single GB round travels with only about 40% more energy than a top of the line .50 BMG, it is not even 1/180 th of the energy in my truck going 80. a strike from 180 of these things has the energy of my old truck going between 70 and 80. While being struck by numerou projectiles at once does terrible things to flesh and blood ( which is why small shot can bring down a big bird) via hydrostatic shock, and might have some sort of cascading effect on certian substances it would actually result in less dramatic effects than a car with regard to lifting up the target and such. Each round expends energy to penetrate the target, so this is not a good comparison. Similarly being hit by a projectile, even one with tremendous force is not the same as "being" a projectile. Being dropped from teh empire state building is not the same as being hit by something which produces that equivelent amount of energy.

[azazel1024]

Actually it would have the exact same effect, actually worse in some ways.

Your math might be a little of, but at any rate I prefer things in metric, and a 1.2kg object moving at mach 5, or about 1,600m/sec has ~3mj of energy. If all those flechettes hit someone in body armor and the armor stops the projectile completely (no richochettes of, no total penetrations) then it wil transfer 3mj of energy to the human + armor in a few thousands of a second. A 100kg human + armor + equipment combination (220lbs) would be propelled backward at 244m/sec. Likely that would send the person flying back several hundred feet before they skidded enough and/or slammed into/through some trees/rocks/etc before they came to a halt.

Your truck going 80mph does not transfer 100% of its energy in to a person if it strikes them, it will at best send them backwards at 80mph. The car can't propel the person backwards faster then it was moving itself unless it is a highly elastic collision (which it is not). The maximum energy transfered in to that 100kg combination is 89,500j...a very tiny percentage of what that Boomgun round would/could transfer to a person in armor.

By comparison a .50cal BMG (20kjg) would send that person in armor backward at 20m/sec and a .30-06 (4kj) at 9m/sec and a 5.56x45 (1.8kj) at 6m/sec. This is of course assuming complete and total energy transfer and instantly. Normally the energy transfer is over a few hundreths of a second and a lot of times since the bullet penetrates completely not all of the energy is transfered. Keep in mind as well, when firing a gun, the gun recoils in to the firers shoulder who braces and absorbs the recoil. Also things like a Barret .50cal rifle have recoil reducers, etc. A .50 bmg fired without bracing and standing rigid is going to knock you on your ass promptly.

Hollywood versions of shotgun blasts sending people flying backwards is completely false, even with body armor on it might knock a person backwards some or off their feet, but not flying backwards.

However, a 3mj projectile is GOING to knock a human in body armor flying hundreds of feet. The energy transfer is also so quick, lets call it 1/100th of a second, which is probably generous means the person in the body armor is going to experience an acceleration on the order of 25,000g in that 1/100th of a second. A human can survive up to about 100g in a car crash, as high as 200-250g is a really well prepared race car (5 point harness, head restraint, etc, etc) for a few hundreths to a tenth or two of a second, possibly with bad injuries, but survive. Instantaneous accelerations of over 1,000g of shown to be survivable (but again, injurous) for a few thousanths of a second.

25,000g would salsafy a person in body armor. Absolutely not survivable in the least.

For at least a shred of reality I think a good house rule is that for MD kinetic (punches, kicks, rail guns, explosions) hits the person in body armor takes 1SDC of damage for every 1 point of MD inflicted on the body armor from physical shock through the armor. Energy weapons such as laser, particle beam and plasma don't or don't necessarily have any knock down/kinetic component to them. For Power armor you could have it for every 10 points of kinetic MD the wearer suffers 1 SDC.

Gives a little reality, but at the same time keeping it in RPG bounds (IE a strike doesn't just kill the character, or at least not likely).
-Matt

[Elthbert]

The funny thing is that today bullets travel way more fast than Mach 5 and even today railguns (the ones being made in universities all around the globe) already hit the speed of 4km/s or 2,5mp/s and that is a LOT more fast than Mach 5.

Regular bullets fired from hand weapons do not go anywhere NEAR mach 5. The .220 Swift, which is the fastest regular bullet I know of, goes mach 3.73 on the fastest standard load I can find.

/Sub

well agian MACH depends on lots of things, if you are using the 761mph value ( which is unrealisticly fast unless your glitterboy lives on the beach, up north) then thats still 4164 feet per second. the fastest standard load for the .220 swift I know of is 4213fps, personally I would rate that at MACH 3.83, still not Mach 5 but hardly so far away that Mach 5 is outlandish from a conventional bullet, if we necked down a 30-06 and put a 40 grain bullet on it it might attain close to that.
THe glitterboy does its massive damage from striking with so many projectiles, it is a megadamage, long range, tight choked, shotgun, if you can suspend disbelief enough to accept MDC armour at all, the survivability of a glitterboy shot is hardly shocking.

[Subjugator]

well agian MACH depends on lots of things, if you are using the 761mph value ( which is unrealisticly fast unless your glitterboy lives on the beach, up north) then thats still 4164 feet per second. the fastest standard load for the .220 swift I know of is 4213fps, personally I would rate that at MACH 3.83, still not Mach 5 but hardly so far away that Mach 5 is outlandish from a conventional bullet, if we necked down a 30-06 and put a 40 grain bullet on it it might attain close to that.
THe glitterboy does its massive damage from striking with so many projectiles, it is a megadamage, long range, tight choked, shotgun, if you can suspend disbelief enough to accept MDC armour at all, the survivability of a glitterboy shot is hardly shocking.

My objection is only to the wild inaccuracy of this statement:

The funny thing is that today bullets travel way more fast than Mach 5

It is flatly untrue. Again, the .220 Swift is the fastest bullet I know of, and it does not exceed Mach 5. Admittedly, the 770 mph number I was using for Mach assumes sea level and a decently warm temperature, but *shrug* - one must work within some level of standardization.

/Sub

[azazel1024]

Did anyone stop to read my transfer of kinetic energy thing? A .220 swift moving as fast as it does has no where near the kinetic energy of something moving nearly a third again as fast and with something like 100 times as much mass or more.

Even 'leaning in' to the impact it is going to send a human backwards fast enough that they would probably go through a cinderblock wall. That kind of kinetic energy transfer would kill any SDC being inside of armor, even if it didn't penetrate the armor itself.

A simple 1SDC of damage to people inside of armor for every 1 point of MD of kinetic attacks (rail guns, big bore shotgun, TX rounds, explosions, etc) brings in a bit of realism, but still keeps things in the generally survivable RPG world. Of course in heavy body armor with say 120MDC there is a good chance that the person in it would be killed long before the armor was destroyed. Maybe make it so that you can probably last as long the body armor can.

Give light armor that 1 to 1, medium armor 1 to 2 and heavy armor 1 to 3 with PA 1 to 10. Basically the heavier the armor the better the shock absorbant linings are along with better concusion/shock protection. Hell when it comes down to the squishy nature of SDC creatures, as soon as the armor is gone the character is basically dead from anything anyway.
-Matt

[keir451]

I can get behind what you're saying azazel1024, the reason I game this way is that my gamers REQUIRE me to apply this level of realism to my games, which makes me have to reconsider many of the things Kevin has listed for damage ratings and such.
I might actually apply that concept to my games, just to make things more survivable.

[grandmaster z0b]

Irrelevant is the fact that you are forgeting common sense (something Kev himself have said takes precedent over the rules) when you defend that a 30ft power armor can survive a blast that generates enought heat that its comparable to the core of the sun.

Actually, Kev does not say that 'common sense' has precedence over the rules, he says that GM ruling does. The rules as written say something, and they have meaning. How you put it into your game is up to you, but if you deviate from what has been written down then you are not playing with the rules as written, which is the only rational thing we can argue, since you can turn the rules into anything you want in your game.

But every game must have a GM, the rules do not stand without a GMs guidance.

The rules involving people shooting themselves in the head at point blank range in the original conversion book do give a good feel for the way Kev thinks the rules should be implemented in game. I think he fairly much says that even though the rules say that someone has enough SDC to survive a bullet or a grenade, that doesn't meant hey should be able to survive it. Now whilst he has then gone on to provide rules for that scenario (hits to the head at point blank range) he also gives a blurb on how to interpret the rules, that just because the numbers say one thing, it's important not just for the GM but also the players to use common sense.

So Sub, I think that your totally correct in your interpretation of the rules as written, but I also don't think someone would be deviating from the rules as written to say that a GB is destroyed by a point blank range hit by a nuclear weapon because the books also have rules for interpreting very similar events; using common sense to interpret situations where the amount of damage of a weapon normally does not exceed the total capacity of something else when hit at point blank range.

Either way you're interpreting the rules.