Hypothetical Senario: Glitter Boy vs. Three SAMAS

[Subjugator]

Number of Att:
GB: 4 from Martial Arts+1 from Boxing +2 from Glitterboy Power Armor Elite = Total 7
SAMAS: 4 from Expert+1 from Boxing +1 from Flying Power Armor Elite = Total 6

What am I missing?

WildWalker

The GB potentially gets one for being a Glitter Boy pilot...*IF* he's an ancestrally based Glitter Boy.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

So...while waiting for the turkey to cook I playtested the scenario a couple of times because I wasn't sure if I was remembering things a bit "rosy". Now I think I need to play out this scenario in a PvP with a referee because the results were so skewed in the GB's favor it wasn't funny.

First scenario was a straight up ambush from the GB. One round of firing on unprepared flying SAMs pretty much made the rest of the scenario cleanup. Did that one twice.

First time it was three aimed called shots in round one wing/wing/wing. Once they were grounded, skeet shooting missile volleys and aimed called shotting weapons, arms, legs etc as the SAMs came in, pretty much reduced them to ineffectiveness and killed them bad. Damage to eh GB was quite minimal.

Second time they knew each other was there and the SAMs combined high fast runs with one on the ground as the tip of the spear...the GB got a little more snoted up but it ended up pretty much the same.

Last scenario was a SAM ambush and the GB got ground down pretty bad but he skeeted the guy trying for a hit and run and it again never actually made it to melee range.

Out of this I had two revelations. The first is that aimed called shots with a gun big enough to blast important tools like weapons in a single shot truly rocks. The second is that a pair of mini missiles is just not much of a backup weapon.

My son was impatiently rolling the dice so I don't have a shot by shot summary but I'm going to stick to my guns. I say, unless the GB gets unlucky that 3 SAMs get wasted every time.

The Boomgun is just too dominant.

I now want to try thing against some Grinning Jacks to see if 3 times as many mini-missiles might change things.

WildWalker

Please give full details, as below:

1. What penalties were you applying to each of their 'to hit' rolls?
2. What bonuses were you applying to each of their 'to hit' rolls?
3. What penalties were you applying each of their dodge rolls?
4. What bonuses were you applying each of their dodge rolls?
5. Did you assume that either was dodging when fired upon?
6. How were you calculating the number of attacks per round (did you assume that the GB pilot was hereditary, or not)?


Flying

The way I'm calculating it, if they're flying at 300mph and actively dodging, my numbers come up as follows:

1. Flying at 300mph: -6 to hit them
2. Actively evading: -1 to hit them
3. Called shot to the wings: -3 or -4 to hit the SAMAS wings
4. Dodging: The SAMs get +5 to dodge
5. +2 to strike using the Boom Gun

Total penalty to hit on a called shot in this circumstance: -10 or -11
Total penalty to hit on a regular shot in this circumstance: -7
Total roll to strike (including bonuses) when making a called shot: 18 or 19
Total roll to strike (including bonuses) when not making a called shot: 13

What that means is that on its best shots (standard, not a called shot), the Glitter Boy will flat out miss 60% of the time. The other 40% of the time, the SAMs can dodge at +5, meaning that they will succeed in their dodge attempt approximately 45% of the time. That puts the GB's best case scenario chance of actually causing damage in this circumstance at around 30% per shot.

Chance for the Glitterboy to hit: 40%
Chance for the SAM to dodge: 45%
Chance for Glitter Boy to actually cause damage on a given shot: 18%
Average damage for the Glitter Boy: 105 MDC


Using Cover

If the SAMs are using cover on foot at 60mph and moving in behind said cover, I was incorrect. The GB would not be firing wild, but blind (RUE page 361 - if you cannot see them (not just have them on radar, but see them), you're firing blind). That gives a -10 to hit and requires a called shot. That'd reduce him to four attacks per round (at an absolute maximum) and give him the following penalties and bonuses:

1. Firing blind: -10
2. Targets moving evasively: -1
3. Targets moving 60mph: -2
4. Called shot to the wings: -3 or -4
5. +2 to strike with the Boom Gun
6. Bonus to dodge: +5

Total penalties to strike without targeting the wings: -13
Total penalties to strike while targeting the wings: -16 or -17
Total roll to strike while not targeting the wings: 21
Total roll to strike while targeting the wings: 24 or 25

With this one, until they got close enough, it's almost impossible for him to hit them (only on a natural 19 or 20 would he hit), and at that point, they can dodge at +5 (thereby only needing a 16-17 to dodge, giving them a 15%-20% chance of success to dodge in the 10% chance that they are actually hit.

Chance to hit for the GB: 10% (best)
Chance to dodge for the SAMs: 17.5% (worst)
Overall chance for the GB to do damage: 8.25% per shot
Average damage for the GB: 105 MDC


Conclusion

Sure, he does a lot of damage, but in either case he'll very rarely hit them, and if he does hit, they stand a decent chance of dodging. As they have a LOT more chances to do damage, and if he dodges even once, it hoses him. He gets at most eight attacks per round, or four if they intelligently move in behind cover, and dodging once will reduce his overall damage range by 12.5% to 25% for that entire round. For the SAMs to dodge once, they reduce their damage potential by 5.5%.

The use of cover makes this ridiculously in favor of the SAMs. The GB is reduced to the options of either dodging or attacking, and his attacks are far reduced in efficacy. It is stipulated that he does more damage, but it's not enough to make up the difference. Also, he'd be a damned fool to try and make a called shot at the wings. It'd reduce his total attacks by two per attempt, give him even bigger minuses to strike, and would ultimately sound his death knell. If he made aimed called shots, it'd reduce his total attacks by three per attempt, give him a bonus to strike, but would give him exactly two aimed called shots and then a maximum of two other shots per round.

I don't know what intelligence you're applying (it sounds like not applying) to the Glitter Boy, but I'll be happy to RP this out with third parties holding the dice for us. I'll have the three SAMs and you have the GB. I'll move in under cover giving you insane penalties and then move in for the kill on the ground, pounding that Boom Gun into slag in melee combat.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

I think we might be generating numbers differently.

Example:

I start with figuring out a base target number (8 if the target is doing nothing, for instance) Then I add environmental considerations (in the case of a SAMAS flying and dodging at 300mph). In this case we agree that would be +7.

That brings the base target number to 14.

As I read the rules, called shots take extra actions but add no penalties unless you are trying to hit something with a stated penalty. SAMAS wings don't have a stated penalty and shouldn't because they are not small and "hard to hit".

Depends on how they're being looked at, doesn't it? They'd be flying at him...thereby making him fire at the edge and partial flat of the wing, rather than the flat of the wing in general. That's small and hard to hit. If you don't think so, we'll take you out to a mere 1,000 feet and I'll have you shoot at something that's 1" thick and bent slightly toward you. I'll even let you have a powerful scope to help with targeting. I bet you miss at least nine out of ten times.

That means that a GB pilot can use 3 attacks and take a shot at +5 versus that target number of 15 meaning the GB pilot needs to roll a 11 or better to hit.

Three attacks at +5? Where'd you get the +5? If he's doing an aimed called shot, only two of his attacks would receive a bonus. His remaining two attacks would not.

If he does then the SAM pilot can try to dodge and the target number for that dodge would be what ever the strike number was.

At +5 to dodge.

So if the GB pilot took the shot above and rolled an 11 the dodge target number would be 16.

Assuming your number of +5 is accurate, which I'm not seeing as possible unless he's taking aimed called shots, which require three actions each.

The SAMAS then would get +9 to that roll (assuming Expert, Elite Piloting and Boxing) so would need a 5 or better to dodge and would be down one attack...assuming he wasn't ambushed.

He'd know the GB was there because of radar. No ambush is really possible at that point, unless the GB had taken extreme measures to do so. With that said; if you're assuming an ambush on the part of the GB, then you also have to run a scenario where all three of the SAMs get an ambush shot against the GB. In that case though, the GB still comes out behind because he only gets one shot against them, whereas they get three against him.

Being ambushed he wouldn't get to dodge until the ambush round was over...

Wrong. Definitively so. He wouldn't be able to dodge that one attack. RUE page 347 under sneak attacks. The sneak attack...not attacks...cannot be parried, dodged, et al.

Which is why, with an average set of rolls, a GB pilot can ground two SAMs in the opening rounds of an ambush.

When you rely upon incorrect information, you can accomplish anything.

As for cover...this is where the GB's ability to stand and blast nails the SAMs.

If you can shoot the GB, he can shoot back and if he's aiming called shots at the SAMs weapons then cover doesn't help much because it's not you he's shooting at, it's your gun...and dodging on the ground doesnt give you the +5 for the dodge or the speed bonus.

Does that make sense?

No, because you're assuming they're shooting while moving in. I'm not. I'm assuming they're simply moving in, since the purpose of closing to melee combat is to eliminate the threat of the Boom Gun by being too close for its use. Also, if he's aiming shots at the SAMs weapons, he's firing blind on a called shot to small item (the visible area of the gun when the SAM is moving toward you is smaller than the visible area of the head).

Lastly, you get the +5 to dodge when flying or leaping. You also get the 60mph bonus, which is what I was including in my calculations (-2 to strike for that - evasive action and > 20mph). Lastly, they get +2 to dodge when they're just on the ground.

Do you bother to read the rules and assume intelligent behavior on the part of your opponents before making your assumptions, or do you apply intellectual dishonesty to any situation that isn't working as you would prefer? Again, I'll be happy to RP this with you with a neutral third party managing the dice for both of us. We'll find out how this works out when both people are acting in the actual best interests of their representative avatar. I think you're making too many assumptions about stupid behavior on the part of the SAMs to come up with an honest answer on this. You're assuming that they cannot dodge effectively, that they won't use cover effectively, that called shots to items that present a smaller profile than items that explicitly give called shot negatives to hit do not give negatives to hit, and are otherwise trying to irrationally stack the deck in favor of your own opinion. Firing at the leg of a SAMAS gives a penalty to hit. You think that firing at the gun of it doesn't, when all you're going to see is the tip? Firing at the head of a SAMAS gives a penalty to hit. It's got about a 1' x 1' profile - you think it's easier to shoot that than a 3" thick profile wafer at 11,000'?

Also, the SAMs being on the ground puts them in a better position than if they're firing. They still get the +5 to dodge (they can still leap with no wings, it says so specifically in the description), they get to use cover (-10 to strike when firing blind), they can move >20mph (-2 to strike for evasive maneuvering and speed)...all this resulting in a +5 to dodge and a -12 to strike...and that's BEFORE you start trying to make your called shots.

So, you can ignore the rules if you want re: firing blind, called shots, the number of attacks per round given for an aimed called shot, et al, but that's not really an honest way to give the GB the advantage, is it?

Also, you can ignore the scenario if you want. There is *ample* cover. If you cannot physically see the person, then you get a -10 to strike them. That's the gig. It doesn't say protective cover...just that it's cover, which is all that is needed. That also isn't very honest, is it?

Quit assuming that because you believe something to be true, it must be true, and check the actual numbers. Before I looked into it on this thread, I assumed the GB would win too. I was wrong. His inability to dodge sufficiently in defense AND attack in the same round, his comparative lack of mobility, and his weakness in melee combat is what kills him here. They pound his Boom Gun to slag and then shoot the hell out of him, and he's toast. That is particularly true if they use armor piercing missiles and simply fire at him normally, because the Boom Gun would take half damage from them before they even started beating on it, thereby reducing (not necessarily by more or less than half, but reducing nonetheless) the amount of time required for the SAMs to be in melee combat before they can simply start shooting the GM with their rail guns from the air. Body blocks also are on their side - he loses attacks and lets them beat on him further.

/Sub

[Danger]

Quick question: If there is ample cover, how is it that the Samas are able to pin point the location of the Glitterboy automatically? Is there some sort of 'Detect Power Armor' built into their radar? I don't have my books with me, but I'm pretty sure that isn't part of their radar package.

[jedi078]

Quick question: If there is ample cover, how is it that the Samas are able to pin point the location of the Glitterboy automatically? Is there some sort of 'Detect Power Armor' built into their radar? I don't have my books with me, but I'm pretty sure that isn't part of their radar package.

As a Robotech GM I make my players use those pilot related skills. In this situation this is what I’d do:

For the SAMAS pilot there would first be a penalty for using the radar (RSI/RSE roll) to see if you can pick anything out of the ground clutter (about -30% or 50%). If there was no ground clutter this roll would not be needed, and the contact would simply be seen on radar.

Then another RSI/RSE roll (no penalty) would be needed to identify what was picked up on radar. Is it a Glitter Boy? A tank?

The Glitter Boy would just have to identify what the three fast moving targets flying above the city on his radar are. Unless of course they are flying between the building. But the the SAMAS pilots would have to make piloting rolls when flying faster then 50 MPH so as to not slam into a building.

Now if both groups were on the ground radar detection would be at -30% or -50%.

Also each RSI/RSE roll counts as an action.

[Dog_O_War]

This is a deritive of an argument I had with a friend a while ago. Basically, the question was: How many Classic-Style SAMAS would it take to swarm and kill a lone Glitter Boy.

Obviously, Two or Three solid hits from a glitter boy can kill a SAMAS, or even one Nat 20 wiht a high damage roll.

On the other hand, the SAMAS can swarm and flank him, and the GB cannot dodge effectively.

My friend argued that with just a bit of luck the Glitter Boy can pick off the three before his armor is completely drained. I think that the odds of them standing still trading blows is a bit silly.

So here's the Senario: One Glitter Boy gets into a fight with a squad of 3 SAMAS in the ruins of Old Detroid. There's plenty of cover, but only parts of it Mega Damage. And to make things a little more interesting, one of the SAMAS is suffering from a malfunction in it's jet pack and cannot fly.

All 4 suits have full MDC and are fully loaded.

I didn't read any other posters, so keep that in-mind when reading my answer.


Based strictly on the numbers, a Glitterboy should be able to handle 3 SAMAS easily. Here is how I came to that conclusion.

A Glitterboy has between 7 and 8 attacks per melee round (8 if the pilot has boxing), has a point of initiative (+1) on the SAMAS, and can do more than 4 times its damage per hit (180 vs 40) though just over 4 times is the average (105 vs 25). A SAMAS has only 250 MDC, which means a Glitterboy will completely destroy a SAMAS in 3 average-damage attacks, while a Glitterboy has 770 MDC (before disabled status), meaning that even a full rounds' worth of all three SAMAS attacks (6x25=150, or 7x25=175) will only bring it to just over half its MDC.

Additionally the Glitterboy has over 1 mile of range on any of the SAMAS's weapons, and of the weapons the SAMAS has that are long-range (the mini-missile), the Glitterboy gets a chance to either dodge, shoot down, or can simply block-sacrifice and not take any damage to the main body.
Additionally while people would put mobility in-favor of the SAMAS, I believe it is negated based on the fact that if the SAMAS want to hit anything they need to be reasonably stationary to do so, leaving themselves open for a counter-strike.
As well the Glitterboy has superior sensors, making even hiding SAMAS easily spotted targets, while despite the size of the Glitterboy, it has plenty of cover to hide from SAMAS

That would lend the pros as follows
-the Glitterboy goes first, either via skill or by range
-the Glitterboy has more than enough attacks per round to destroy 2 SAMAS per turn
-the Glitterboy can withstand a direct assault from three SAMAS
-Superior sensory equipment


In order to make this even close to a "fair" fight, I believe it would have to be 5 or 6 SAMAS per 1 Glitterboy.

[Subjugator]

Quick question: If there is ample cover, how is it that the Samas are able to pin point the location of the Glitterboy automatically? Is there some sort of 'Detect Power Armor' built into their radar? I don't have my books with me, but I'm pretty sure that isn't part of their radar package.

Figuring out where he is (without seeing him) can be done via radar, just as he knows where they are.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

Subjugator,

I am sorry that you felt provoked enough by this conversation that accusing me of “intellectual dishonesty” seemed like an appropriate response.

It is not.

WildWalker

You have repeatedly treated the SAMs as if they are piloted by stupid people in your examples. I fail to see what else it can be.

Care to answer any of my questions? I've asked several and have provided concrete examples as to why I disagree with your assessments, but all you've done is tell me why you think I'm wrong without providing concrete examples. You gave anecdotal evidence from a biased sampling (your own personal test where the SAMs were not behaving intelligently), but nothing else.

I've offered to play it out with you as the GB and me as the SAMs to see if reality holds out to what either of us has described. You've been notably silent on that offer.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

I didn't read any other posters, so keep that in-mind when reading my answer.

You should read the other posts. There is considerable dispute on the subject.

Based strictly on the numbers, a Glitterboy should be able to handle 3 SAMAS easily. Here is how I came to that conclusion.

You're forgetting several things.

1. The SAMs, individually, have far greater capacity to dodge than does the GB.
2. The SAMs can either fly very fast (causing a net -6 to strike) or use cover (causing a net -11 to strike).
3. Once they've used cover or flown in very quickly, they can engage in melee combat, ultimately preventing the use of the Boom Gun.
4. The SAMs have +5 to dodge when flying or jumping, another big advantage.

/Sub

[dark brandon]

Just out of curiosity, would the boom affect those in the SAMAS armor if they were within range? Note: I just moved and all my books are buried in a bunch of boxes at the moment...

I don't think so, (But I can't remember specifically). EBA grants lessened effects while PA and robots are unaffected. Normal armor (non eba) requires special padding.

[Dog_O_War]

I didn't read any other posters, so keep that in-mind when reading my answer.

You should read the other posts. There is considerable dispute on the subject.

As arrogant as this sounds, it's typically nothing of note.

Based strictly on the numbers, a Glitterboy should be able to handle 3 SAMAS easily. Here is how I came to that conclusion.

You're forgetting several things.

No, I considered all of this.

1. The SAMs, individually, have far greater capacity to dodge than does the GB.

That doesn't matter as there are three factors that can negate the dodge attempt.
The first is that every dodge made is one less attack the Glitterboy will suffer, and the Glitterboy has more attacks per melee than the SAMAS does - which means that while they have a better bonus to dodge, they can't dodge everything.
The second is that you cannot dodge a long-range/hidden attack.
The third is a simultaineous strike.

2. The SAMs can either fly very fast (causing a net -6 to strike) or use cover (causing a net -11 to strike).

I've already mentioned why this is a non-issue. The Glitterboy has superior sensory equipment, meaning that barring hard cover the GB can see the SAMAS through walls and such.
The second is that while a SAMAS is flying fast it basically negates its own ability to hit as the penalties are immense while moving fast.

3. Once they've used cover or flown in very quickly, they can engage in melee combat, ultimately preventing the use of the Boom Gun.

There is no way "melee" combat will negate the use of the boomgun. That and all that would do is ensure that the SAMAS cannot dodge the boomgun at all.

4.The SAMs have +5 to dodge when flying or jumping, another big advantage.
/Sub

This ties in with the fast-moving target senario; it negates itself with the penalties it provides.

[Danger]

Quick question: If there is ample cover, how is it that the Samas are able to pin point the location of the Glitterboy automatically? Is there some sort of 'Detect Power Armor' built into their radar? I don't have my books with me, but I'm pretty sure that isn't part of their radar package.

Figuring out where he is (without seeing him) can be done via radar, just as he knows where they are.

/Sub

Sorry, but I still don't see a 'Detect Glitterboy' function on anyone's radar. If the Glitterboy is standing near any cover, or other large objects, the Samas does not immediately spot the Glitterboy.

Now, if the Glitterboy was in a clear, open field, that would be a different story, but the scenario clearly states that is not the case.

[Danger]

it looks good but the only thin g is...how did the GB win INT the first round, and how come the GB gets to have all his bouneses to srike when the Sams don't. The Sams are moveing fast, and activle tring not to get hit.

Which puts the Sams at HUGE penalties to strike.

[jedi078]

it looks good but the only thin g is...how did the GB win INT the first round, and how come the GB gets to have all his bouneses to srike when the Sams don't. The Sams are moveing fast, and activle tring not to get hit.

Init means nothing when the other guy has range on you. In this case the GB's boom gun has a greater range the any of the SAMAS weapons.

[Subjugator]

As arrogant as this sounds, it's typically nothing of note.

As arrogant as this may sound, you've made it clear you've not put real thought into it.

That doesn't matter as there are three factors that can negate the dodge attempt.

These don't negate it. I did an analysis of the qualities of each attack and what the odds of hitting are. The GB loses in large part because of this.

The first is that every dodge made is one less attack the Glitterboy will suffer, and the Glitterboy has more attacks per melee than the SAMAS does - which means that while they have a better bonus to dodge, they can't dodge everything.

They cannot dodge everything, but as a rule they have well over a 50% chance that each attack made by the GB will miss, whether that is through dodging or through a flat out miss.

The second is that you cannot dodge a long-range/hidden attack.

Attack number 1 cannot be dodged. Gotcha.

The third is a simultaineous strike.

Yeah. Why are you assuming simultaneous strikes? They're not attacking, they're closing for melee.

I've already mentioned why this is a non-issue. The Glitterboy has superior sensory equipment, meaning that barring hard cover the GB can see the SAMAS through walls and such.

1. Where are you seeing that the GB has 'superior sensory equipment that lets it see through walls and such'? There is nothing to indicate this, and we're talking hills of rubble.
2. If you're referring to thermo imaging, SAMAS PA has thermo imaging built in as well. It doesn't let you look through eight or nine feet of rubble to see a SAMAS. It lets you look through six inches of drywall and insulation. There's a difference.

There is no way "melee" combat will negate the use of the boomgun. That and all that would do is ensure that the SAMAS cannot dodge the boomgun at all.

Really, so you think that a SAMAS that is grappling with the GB can be shot by the boom gun that sticks out beyond the range of where the SAMAS is? Remember that a GB cannot even lift the weight of three SAMs (max lifting weight of a GB is 1500lbs - three SAMs without the weight of their pilots is 1866 lbs - add pilots at approximately 200lbs each and you're up to 2466lbs, well beyond the lifting weight of a GB) , and if they knock him down, his ability to shoot will be hampered to say the least. FYI - each individual SAMAS weighs (including the pilot) 822lbs, more than a knocked down GB can rationally lift, as their lifting weight is for the whole body working in concert and not just an arm.

This ties in with the fast-moving target senario; it negates itself with the penalties it provides.

Um, no...it doesn't. Once again, they aren't shooting. They are moving in to attack in melee combat. They are better off moving in under cover though, as that leaves them with much better bonuses. Either way, the GB has < 50% chance of hitting on each attack. Things don't look good for him.

BTW - here's how the dodges work to the advantage of the SAMs:

SAM dodges, he loses one attack. That leaves seventeen other attacks this round to hurt the GB.
GB dodges, he loses one attack. That leaves (at most) seven other attacks this round to hurt the SAMs.

He uses 12.5% of his attack power to dodge. They use 5.5% of their attack power to dodge.

/Sub

[Shark_Force]

regarding the above rolled-out scenario:

the shots where the glitterboy was firing without the pylons would have been firing wild, thus -6, and thus most would not have had a chance of hitting the SAMAS. additionally, i noticed a few instances where the GB (which according to your notes needed a roll of 14 to have even a chance of hitting, with said roll actually counting as an 8 as far as the SAMAS ability to dodge) hit with rolls of 13 or less.

additionally, it seems rather suspect that the glitterboy was able to fire his boomgun at a grappling target. now, call me crazy, but *my* definition of grapple doesn't consist of grabbing tightly onto the boomgun to keep it pointing at your chest. it consists of moving in close to the body, far shorter than the barrel length of the boomgun, and grappling at the body, or perhaps the arms or legs. the tackle should have cost the GB two attacks in that melee (ie the target loses 2 attacks). and every time it fired it's gun to escape, the two SAMAS can just run over and grapple it again, and the glitterboy will at best be able to fire his gun behind the SAMAS, knocking him a bit further, while they just move up to him again and make their attack. additionally, the SAMAS had +7 to dodge in the air, while you gave them only +5 in many situations.

[Subjugator]

Okay, here is a complete write up of a fight.

With a number of errors.

1. Grappling is not resolved multiple times per melee round, but once. There is NOTHING to suggest it is resolved once per action. Occam's Razor - do not assume there are more elements than those presented.
2. A body block causes the victim to lose an attack and initiative.
3. There's a conflict in the rules. On RUE pg 72 it says two different things about what will happen in the event a GB fires his gun without his pylons or other suitable bracing. In the discussion of being 'underwater' (though at the time, it's using an example of being in the air), it says he is propelled backward 1D4x100 yards/meters and loses initiative and his next several actions. On the same page discussing what happens in more typical circumstances, it says he goes backward 30 feet. I do not fault you for this, but have serious difficulties with the RAW in this case, because they explicitly conflict with each other.
4. A full speed body ram (which is what this would have been - RUE pg 346), causes the victim to lose TWO attacks and initiative. He didn't lose any attacks and kept his full seven attacks for that round.
5. The damage from the body blocks was off by 1D6. It does 1D6, PLUS the additional 1D6 per 30mph of speed in the attack.
6. If the attack succeeds, the target *is* held. It's not an attack and then an opposed check (RUE pg 345).

Also, played intelligently, the SAMs would have waited until they had him grappled and then fired mini-missiles at his Boom Gun at close range. Once the BG is gone, the GB is worthless.

Also, I offered to play the SAMs against you. I might have Ratty play the GB just so I can find out what would happen if both sides were played to their fullest, since you seem unwilling to do so.

/Sub

[Jefffar]

Something I want to add to the scenario - each time the SAMAS dodge they reduce the distance covered that melee round by 1/6th.

The official definition of speed in Palladium indicates that you take the distance covered by melee and divide it by the number of actions the character has to determine how much distance the character can cover with an action. Since the SAMAS are spending actions dodging, they loose that amount of movement. Now the rules let them fire on the move (at a -6) but it says nothing about moving while dodging and keeping their speed up. This makes sense realistically as well as the manoeuvring would transfer the forward momentum in another direction thus reducing the overall distance travelled.

[jedi078]

I'd be willing to run this scenario on RPOL….but I am sure someone would not agree (or more likely cry foul) with my house rules.

I made the GB's boom gun do 6d6x10 MDC per round (it no longer fires multiple flechettes, but a single round), crit hits on a 16-19 doing double damage, and does triple damage on a nat 20. The GB would also be allowed back up weapons because I have yet to see a GB pilot without any backup weapons.

Conversely I allow SAMAS to carry SRM's under the wings (one per wing). The rail gun, even though it fires burst could be used to make a called shot, and has the same crit hit properties as the Boom Gun. An optional grenade launcher can also be mounted under the rail gun too. The pilot would be allowed to have an energy pistol as a side arm and a vibro knife. At Max speed (300 MPH) a SAMAS would have auto dodge.

Last but not least the idea of a SAMAS body blocking a GB and breaking the stabilization pylons wouldn't work. If the boom gun being fired results in the GB being blown back 30 feet a SAMAS would need to have at least twice the inertia as a single boom gun round. You’re not going to get that much inertia at 300 MPH.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Okay, here is a complete write up of a fight.

With a number of errors.

1. Grappling is not resolved multiple times per melee round, but once. There is NOTHING to suggest it is resolved once per action. Occam's Razor - do not assume there are more elements than those presented.

Just to comment: i'm afraid your apply logic in reverse. There is NOTHING to suggest that grappling is considered by the melee round, therefore, one can presume each instance is a single action, the same with every other attack. There is no reason to assume it consumes more than one attack.

Your assumption that it takes more than a single action defies all other actions. It's stated that all moves unless otherwise specified (such as power punches and leap kicks) are but a single attack. To assume grappling is handled differently, that is adding more to it.

[Subjugator]

I'd be willing to run this scenario on RPOL….but I am sure someone would not agree (or more likely cry foul) with my house rules.

I made the GB's boom gun do 6d6x10 MDC per round (it no longer fires multiple flechettes, but a single round), crit hits on a 16-19 doing double damage, and does triple damage on a nat 20. The GB would also be allowed back up weapons because I have yet to see a GB pilot without any backup weapons.

Conversely I allow SAMAS to carry SRM's under the wings (one per wing). The rail gun, even though it fires burst could be used to make a called shot, and has the same crit hit properties as the Boom Gun. An optional grenade launcher can also be mounted under the rail gun too. The pilot would be allowed to have an energy pistol as a side arm and a vibro knife. At Max speed (300 MPH) a SAMAS would have auto dodge.

Last but not least the idea of a SAMAS body blocking a GB and breaking the stabilization pylons wouldn't work. If the boom gun being fired results in the GB being blown back 30 feet a SAMAS would need to have at least twice the inertia as a single boom gun round. You’re not going to get that much inertia at 300 MPH.

The argument is pertaining to the rules as written. A SAM with SRMs under the wings would fare a LOT better, but then, a GB that can do 6d6x10MDC would also fare a lot better. Your scenario would depend heavily on how much damage the SRMs did to the Boom Gun before the SAMs got in range of it. Assuming they fired all six at him @ 1D6x10 per missile hitting the Boom Gun (splash damage) and with three of them hitting him (he knocked the other three out of the sky), that'd put an average of 105 damage to the Boom Gun right off the bat, assuming that only half of them actually strike. If they used aimed and called shots to strike the Boom Gun itself, well, he's in a world of hurt then, because at that point the Boom Gun is usually toast (again, assuming that only half of them strike) with an average of 210 damage to it.

Not last, but not least either - a SAMAS would only need twice that inertia (love to know where you came up with 'twice') if the GB was remaining drilled in. If he's remaining drilled in, he does NOT get a dodge...at all. Furthermore, the inertia of a SAM at 300mph would be FAR HIGHER than that of a Boom Gun round. The SAM weighs over 800lbs (including the pilot and accessories). Many others have calculated the joules of energy expended with a BG strike, and it's less than a Chevy pickup running into something at 60mph. Something at that high of a speed would far exceed the damage of a Chevy pickup when it has a weight that is...what...1/3 (?)...of said pickup.

Last but not least, again, we're going with the RAW. It's the only way we can have an objective argument. I could say I house ruled that the SAMAS also has a range of 11,000 feet when fired from the air. *shrug* House rules are chaotic, and all we know that is certain is the RAW.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

Just to comment: i'm afraid your apply logic in reverse. There is NOTHING to suggest that grappling is considered by the melee round, therefore, one can presume each instance is a single action, the same with every other attack. There is no reason to assume it consumes more than one attack.

Your assumption that it takes more than a single action defies all other actions. It's stated that all moves unless otherwise specified (such as power punches and leap kicks) are but a single attack. To assume grappling is handled differently, that is adding more to it.

OK, let's continue your logic. Since there's nothing to suggest that it's not a continuous event, let's make it happen constantly. Say, once per second.

Where does it say that everything is a single attack? I've not found that. BTW - it also says that while held, you cannot make any attacks, parries, or dodges. Could that be an 'otherwise specified'?

/Sub

[Danger]

As arrogant as this may sound, you've made it clear you've not put real thought into it.

Yep, pretty arrogant. The same could be said of some of your arguments.

They cannot dodge everything, but as a rule they have well over a 50% chance that each attack made by the GB will miss, whether that is through dodging or through a flat out miss.

Thank you for finally admitting this. If the Glitterboy hits with 50% of it's attacks, then (using your own math) it will do 420 MDC to a single target. Buh-bye 1 Samas/Round. How many rounds does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie-Samas? 1, 2, 3, Crunch!

1. Where are you seeing that the GB has 'superior sensory equipment that lets it see through walls and such'? There is nothing to indicate this, and we're talking hills of rubble.

I love how you can ignore my debunk of the Samas 'Detect Glitterboy' radar system, yet blast someone else for using the Glitterboy's sensors. Pot, meet kettle.

Really, so you think that a SAMAS that is grappling with the GB can be shot by the boom gun that sticks out beyond the range of where the SAMAS is? Remember that a GB cannot even lift the weight of three SAMs (max lifting weight of a GB is 1500lbs - three SAMs without the weight of their pilots is 1866 lbs - add pilots at approximately 200lbs each and you're up to 2466lbs, well beyond the lifting weight of a GB) , and if they knock him down, his ability to shoot will be hampered to say the least. FYI - each individual SAMAS weighs (including the pilot) 822lbs, more than a knocked down GB can rationally lift, as their lifting weight is for the whole body working in concert and not just an arm.

The visual of 3 Samas wrestling around with a Glitterboy makes me laugh. Seriously, this is what we've arrived at? The Samas 'being played intelligently' amounts to them dog-piling on the Glitterboy? Why don't we throw in a steel cage and some folding chairs while we're at it?

Um, no...it doesn't. Once again, they aren't shooting. They are moving in to attack in melee combat.

Yes, please spend X amound of rounds moving into melee range while I pound you with my BOOMGUN.

Either way, the GB has < 50% chance of hitting on each attack.

Even hitting 3 out of 8 attacks means 1 Samas down per round.

GB dodges, he loses one attack.

Glitterboy's don't dodge, they blow up Samas.

[dark brandon]

Thank you for finally admitting this. If the Glitterboy hits with 50% of it's attacks, then (using your own math) it will do 420 MDC to a single target. Buh-bye 1 Samas/Round. How many rounds does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie-Samas? 1, 2, 3, Crunch!

This is not taking into consideration active defense by SAMAS.

The visual of 3 Samas wrestling around with a Glitterboy makes me laugh. Seriously, this is what we've arrived at? The Samas 'being played intelligently' amounts to them dog-piling on the Glitterboy? Why don't we throw in a steel cage and some folding chairs while we're at it?

You do what you got to do. Personally, Instead of wrestling, I'd have the Samas come in, fighting defensively, to avoid "simul" attacks. This may mean the first 8 attacks the GB does, the samas only do is dodge. After he's exhausted his APM, many of them will use called shots to the boom gun. This may mean a standoff because the GB may not want to fire until fired upon. When the SAMAS get close enough, they would use their superior speed to stay behind the GB making it difficult or impossible to attack one.

Even hitting 3 out of 8 attacks means 1 Samas down per round.

I don't see them getting hit that often. SAMAS have higher bonuses to Dodge than the GB has to strike (not including penalties for moving fast...ect...). It's kinda like Vegas. Sure, the GB may get lucky sometimes, but more often than not, the more this is played out the more evident the SAMAS will come out on top simply because the numbers are in their favor.

[Danger]

Okay, here is a complete write up of a fight.

With a number of errors.

1. Grappling is not resolved multiple times per melee round, but once. There is NOTHING to suggest it is resolved once per action. Occam's Razor - do not assume there are more elements than those presented.
2. A body block causes the victim to lose an attack and initiative.
3. There's a conflict in the rules. On RUE pg 72 it says two different things about what will happen in the event a GB fires his gun without his pylons or other suitable bracing. In the discussion of being 'underwater' (though at the time, it's using an example of being in the air), it says he is propelled backward 1D4x100 yards/meters and loses initiative and his next several actions. On the same page discussing what happens in more typical circumstances, it says he goes backward 30 feet. I do not fault you for this, but have serious difficulties with the RAW in this case, because they explicitly conflict with each other.
4. A full speed body ram (which is what this would have been - RUE pg 346), causes the victim to lose TWO attacks and initiative. He didn't lose any attacks and kept his full seven attacks for that round.
5. The damage from the body blocks was off by 1D6. It does 1D6, PLUS the additional 1D6 per 30mph of speed in the attack.
6. If the attack succeeds, the target *is* held. It's not an attack and then an opposed check (RUE pg 345).

Also, played intelligently, the SAMs would have waited until they had him grappled and then fired mini-missiles at his Boom Gun at close range. Once the BG is gone, the GB is worthless.

Also, I offered to play the SAMs against you. I might have Ratty play the GB just so I can find out what would happen if both sides were played to their fullest, since you seem unwilling to do so.

/Sub

You also have a number of fuzzy math errors.

1. Grappling is not resolved once per round, as Nekira pointed out. It's a standard action to initiate a hold, and it's a standard action to break out of one.
2. It is nearly impossible for the Samas to destroy the boomgun with their missiles, grappled or not (which still makes me laugh). I'm guessing that only 1 of the Samas has the Glitterboy grappled in your scenario? Remember that on average, (using your own math) the Plasma Missiles do 35 MDC on Average. Typically that would total 210, however you need to explain to me just how the Samas who is grappling the Glitterboy is firing his missiles at the boomgun? Surprise! Every attacker that is holding the Glitterboy is also unable to attack! That means that best case, you're only doing 140 MDC, which does not destroy the boomgun.
3. While we're on the subject of Plasma Missiles - Enough with the posturing about the Glitterboy pilot 'may' have 8 attacks per round. He has 8 attacks. Thus far, it appears that we're assuming maximum standard attacks and equipment for all combatants in our scenario. If the Samas get to have their Boxing and Plasma Missiles, then the Glitterboy has 8 attacks, from Boxing and being a Traditional Glitterboy Pilot.
4. Have we forgotten that the Samas still need to roll a 14 or higher to hit the boomgun with the missiles? That's a 65% chance of missing. Please include that in your calculations.
5. If the Samas miss with their missile called shots, then the boomgun will only take half damage from the blast radius. Still not destroyed.
6. Even if you do hit the boomgun with your missile called shots, the Samas who have the Glitterboy grappled are going to take half damage from the explosion. Thank you for damaging your own teammates for me.
7. I have to give you credit, you're working really hard to put this in the Samas favor. One last thing though - A more accurate portrayal of this scenario would be to have 3 separate players each playing a Samas vs a single player playing the Glitterboy. You also seem to have included another Super Power in the Samas pilots' O.C.C. that I have yet to find: Flawless Coordination. I find it laughable that every action executed by the trio of Samas would be in perfect coordination, like this is some sort of Olympic Synchronized Swimming event. (the Russian judge gives you a 4, by the way ) Holy meta-gaming Batman!
7.a. Without your perfect coordination (tell me how that works again?) in all likelihood, the Samas will have to split up to locate the Glitterboy in the ruins. Now we're talking one on one, (until reinforcements arrive) which is bad news for the Samas.
7.b. With 3 separate people now playing the 3 separate Samas, which is more realistic (and reduces meta-gaming), your chances for coordination are further reduced. Even the best-trained soldier (or gamer) is still an individual, free to make their own choices and may break out of this 'perfect plan' you've created.

[Shark_Force]

[requesting specific instances of incorrect rulings

the ones that would have had an impact:
round 2, SAMAS 1, missile volley. the SAMAS should have had +3 to hit on it's ranged attack, which would have hit.
round 2: GB attack 2, rolled a 13. insufficient to hit the SAMAS (14 is required). this would also give more attacks for that SAMAS.
round 2: GB attack 3, total of 13. insufficient to hit the SAMAS, no dodge required, SAMAS should get another attack.
round 2: GB attack 5, total of 13 to hit. insufficient to hit the SAMAS, no dodge required, another attack for the SAMAS.
round 2: SAMAS 3 attack 5, gets a +3 to hit for a total of 9. the GB would have to dodge or take damage.
round 2: GB attack 6, you had a 12 total. this is insufficient to hit the SAMAS, no dodge required, SAMAS gets another attack.

round 3: GB attack 4, see the pilot: power armor elite for flying power armors. full speed tackle costs the opponent 2 attacks.

round 4: GB attack 1: because of firing wild, no chance to hit.

so yes, i do think that would have made a difference.

[Jefffar]

I think that the SAMAS should have to dodge when fired at anyway, because there is no way to be sure the shot will hit or not unless it's way off (not a slight miss in the ones above).

[dark brandon]

7. I have to give you credit, you're working really hard to put this in the Samas favor. One last thing though - A more accurate portrayal of this scenario would be to have 3 separate players each playing a Samas vs a single player playing the Glitterboy. You also seem to have included another Super Power in the Samas pilots' O.C.C. that I have yet to find: Flawless Coordination. I find it laughable that every action executed by the trio of Samas would be in perfect coordination, like this is some sort of Olympic Synchronized Swimming event. (the Russian judge gives you a 4, by the way ) Holy meta-gaming Batman!
7.a. Without your perfect coordination (tell me how that works again?) in all likelihood, the Samas will have to split up to locate the Glitterboy in the ruins. Now we're talking one on one, (until reinforcements arrive) which is bad news for the Samas.
7.b. With 3 separate people now playing the 3 separate Samas, which is more realistic (and reduces meta-gaming), your chances for coordination are further reduced. Even the best-trained soldier (or gamer) is still an individual, free to make their own choices and may break out of this 'perfect plan' you've created.

How cooridinated are jet fighter pilots with each other? How much communication do they have between each other?

Honestly, I don't know, but modern day fighters would be a good take on this coordination topic. I know my friends who play some war games are pretty awesome in FPS teams as they all have military training. But that's just a FPS.

[Jefffar]

7. I have to give you credit, you're working really hard to put this in the Samas favor. One last thing though - A more accurate portrayal of this scenario would be to have 3 separate players each playing a Samas vs a single player playing the Glitterboy. You also seem to have included another Super Power in the Samas pilots' O.C.C. that I have yet to find: Flawless Coordination. I find it laughable that every action executed by the trio of Samas would be in perfect coordination, like this is some sort of Olympic Synchronized Swimming event. (the Russian judge gives you a 4, by the way ) Holy meta-gaming Batman!
7.a. Without your perfect coordination (tell me how that works again?) in all likelihood, the Samas will have to split up to locate the Glitterboy in the ruins. Now we're talking one on one, (until reinforcements arrive) which is bad news for the Samas.
7.b. With 3 separate people now playing the 3 separate Samas, which is more realistic (and reduces meta-gaming), your chances for coordination are further reduced. Even the best-trained soldier (or gamer) is still an individual, free to make their own choices and may break out of this 'perfect plan' you've created.

How cooridinated are jet fighter pilots with each other? How much communication do they have between each other?

Honestly, I don't know, but modern day fighters would be a good take on this coordination topic. I know my friends who play some war games are pretty awesome in FPS teams as they all have military training. But that's just a FPS.

Well by game rules, radioing someone would be an action.

[dark brandon]

7. I have to give you credit, you're working really hard to put this in the Samas favor. One last thing though - A more accurate portrayal of this scenario would be to have 3 separate players each playing a Samas vs a single player playing the Glitterboy. You also seem to have included another Super Power in the Samas pilots' O.C.C. that I have yet to find: Flawless Coordination. I find it laughable that every action executed by the trio of Samas would be in perfect coordination, like this is some sort of Olympic Synchronized Swimming event. (the Russian judge gives you a 4, by the way ) Holy meta-gaming Batman!
7.a. Without your perfect coordination (tell me how that works again?) in all likelihood, the Samas will have to split up to locate the Glitterboy in the ruins. Now we're talking one on one, (until reinforcements arrive) which is bad news for the Samas.
7.b. With 3 separate people now playing the 3 separate Samas, which is more realistic (and reduces meta-gaming), your chances for coordination are further reduced. Even the best-trained soldier (or gamer) is still an individual, free to make their own choices and may break out of this 'perfect plan' you've created.

How cooridinated are jet fighter pilots with each other? How much communication do they have between each other?

Honestly, I don't know, but modern day fighters would be a good take on this coordination topic. I know my friends who play some war games are pretty awesome in FPS teams as they all have military training. But that's just a FPS.

Well by game rules, radioing someone would be an action.

Are not the radios already linked? What I mean to say, or ask is in jets are they not on open type communication, where they don't need to do anything to talk to each other or work like my computer mic that is voice sensitive? If so then I don't think talking takes an action.

Once again, questions I don't know the answer for, but I think will be help clear up this scenario.

[Jefffar]

Radios don't broadcast everything the speaker says, they broadcast only what the speaker says once they choose to activate the system and broadcast. Then the user shuts down the broadcast, especially in a combat situation when:

1) The enemy might discover your location by your signal
2) While you are transmitting you can't receive meaning you'd miss incoming messages which may be important (such as "Duck!")
3) Continuously transmitting may interfere with the ability of friendly units on the same frequency to communicate.
4) You provide the enemy with lots of signal intelligence to help them break any encryption you use.


Also, in combat, there is a constant jumping from one network to another. There is the network the unit uses to communicate with itself, the network they use to communicate with their parent unit, the network they use to communicate with fire support units, the network they use to communicate with nearby friendly units, the network they use to communicate they are having an emergency . . . .

So yes Radio Basic does require a skill roll and an action to use in combat.

[Subjugator]

Thank you for finally admitting this. If the Glitterboy hits with 50% of it's attacks, then (using your own math) it will do 420 MDC to a single target. Buh-bye 1 Samas/Round. How many rounds does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie-Samas? 1, 2, 3, Crunch!

I said well over 50% chance.

I love how you can ignore my debunk of the Samas 'Detect Glitterboy' radar system, yet blast someone else for using the Glitterboy's sensors. Pot, meet kettle.

He said they're *SEEING* the SAMs. I don't care if they *DETECT* the same. Not firing blind requires that one SEE the target. Read the words being used and apply them as written, not as you would like to have been written.

Thanks.

The visual of 3 Samas wrestling around with a Glitterboy makes me laugh. Seriously, this is what we've arrived at? The Samas 'being played intelligently' amounts to them dog-piling on the Glitterboy? Why don't we throw in a steel cage and some folding chairs while we're at it?

It works doesn't it? They need to either disable or get past the Boom Gun. 'Dog piling' on the GB eliminates the Boom Gun as a threat.

Yes, please spend X amound of rounds moving into melee range while I pound you with my BOOMGUN.

While you fire at -12 to hit for firing BLIND at a target moving at 60mph on about half of your attacks, while I dodge at +5.

Even hitting 3 out of 8 attacks means 1 Samas down per round.

Yep, assuming that you hit. You need a modified roll of 20 to hit a evading SAMAS that is behind cover. He however, needs a modified roll of 15 to dodge that modified roll of 20 to dodge. I'd say that your chance to hit is very small indeed.

Glitterboy's don't dodge, they blow up Samas.

In this case, they get blown up.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

You also have a number of fuzzy math errors.

1. Grappling is not resolved once per round, as Nekira pointed out. It's a standard action to initiate a hold, and it's a standard action to break out of one.

Show me where it says that, please. There is no text that has been given that says this.

2. It is nearly impossible for the Samas to destroy the boomgun with their missiles, grappled or not (which still makes me laugh). I'm guessing that only 1 of the Samas has the Glitterboy grappled in your scenario? Remember that on average, (using your own math) the Plasma Missiles do 35 MDC on Average. Typically that would total 210, however you need to explain to me just how the Samas who is grappling the Glitterboy is firing his missiles at the boomgun? Surprise! Every attacker that is holding the Glitterboy is also unable to attack! That means that best case, you're only doing 140 MDC, which does not destroy the boomgun.

You think that another SAM cannot grapple when the first wishes to let go?

3. While we're on the subject of Plasma Missiles - Enough with the posturing about the Glitterboy pilot 'may' have 8 attacks per round. He has 8 attacks.

Horse feces. He MAY have 8 attacks. It varies depending on the type of Glitter Boy he is. If he's a Quebec GB, he's not a hereditary one, is he? He MIGHT have eight.

Thus far, it appears that we're assuming maximum standard attacks and equipment for all combatants in our scenario. If the Samas get to have their Boxing and Plasma Missiles, then the Glitterboy has 8 attacks, from Boxing and being a Traditional Glitterboy Pilot.

There are more Quebec Glitter Boys than there are Traditional Glitter Boys. Since THAT would be the standard, then he has seven.

4. Have we forgotten that the Samas still need to roll a 14 or higher to hit the boomgun with the missiles? That's a 65% chance of missing. Please include that in your calculations.

They're not attacking the Boom Gun with their missiles. They're attacking the GB, doing half damage to the Boom Gun as splash damage.

5. If the Samas miss with their missile called shots, then the boomgun will only take half damage from the blast radius. Still not destroyed.

Melee damage against them Boom Gun ensues.

6. Even if you do hit the boomgun with your missile called shots, the Samas who have the Glitterboy grappled are going to take half damage from the explosion. Thank you for damaging your own teammates for me.

If it keeps us alive, I'll count that as small price to pay.

7. I have to give you credit, you're working really hard to put this in the Samas favor. One last thing though - A more accurate portrayal of this scenario would be to have 3 separate players each playing a Samas vs a single player playing the Glitterboy. You also seem to have included another Super Power in the Samas pilots' O.C.C. that I have yet to find: Flawless Coordination. I find it laughable that every action executed by the trio of Samas would be in perfect coordination, like this is some sort of Olympic Synchronized Swimming event. (the Russian judge gives you a 4, by the way ) Holy meta-gaming Batman!

You're assuming they cannot speak with each other. They can coordinate the attack ("I'll slam into him. When I do, Jim will grapple with him and you shoot him in the face.") Do you think they don't plan attacks the way sports teams plan plays? "If we come up against a Glitter Boy, we'll swarm him under, bypassing the Boom Gun and beating it to slag.

7.a. Without your perfect coordination (tell me how that works again?) in all likelihood, the Samas will have to split up to locate the Glitterboy in the ruins. Now we're talking one on one, (until reinforcements arrive) which is bad news for the Samas.

Again, radar will detect the location of the GB. It just will not give line of sight.

7.b. With 3 separate people now playing the 3 separate Samas, which is more realistic (and reduces meta-gaming), your chances for coordination are further reduced. Even the best-trained soldier (or gamer) is still an individual, free to make their own choices and may break out of this 'perfect plan' you've created.

Again, you think they don't plan ahead and run simulated attacks against Glitter Boys et al? Seriously? Dude, they're going to war with Quebec, and are expecting to fight Glitter Boys.

/Sub

[Danger]

You also have a number of fuzzy math errors.

1. Grappling is not resolved once per round, as Nekira pointed out. It's a standard action to initiate a hold, and it's a standard action to break out of one.

Show me where it says that, please. There is no text that has been given that says this.

Please carefully read the definition of holds on R:UE page 345, 2nd column. It is a roll vs roll to maintain a hold. That clearly means it is action vs action. The hold is only maintained if the attacker beats the defender's roll.

2. It is nearly impossible for the Samas to destroy the boomgun with their missiles, grappled or not (which still makes me laugh). I'm guessing that only 1 of the Samas has the Glitter Boy grappled in your scenario? Remember that on average, (using your own math) the Plasma Missiles do 35 MDC on Average. Typically that would total 210, however you need to explain to me just how the Samas who is grappling the Glitter Boy is firing his missiles at the boomgun? Surprise! Every attacker that is holding the Glitter Boy is also unable to attack! That means that best case, you're only doing 140 MDC, which does not destroy the boomgun.

You think that another SAM cannot grapple when the first wishes to let go?

Another unlikely coordinating attack. More meta-gaming.

3. While we're on the subject of Plasma Missiles - Enough with the posturing about the Glitterboy pilot 'may' have 8 attacks per round. He has 8 attacks.

Horse feces. He MAY have 8 attacks. It varies depending on the type of Glitter Boy he is. If he's a Quebec GB, he's not a hereditary one, is he? He MIGHT have eight.

Please read R:UE page 69, 2nd Column under the description of Glitter Boys it clearly states that 'most Glitter Boys encountered anywhere outside of Free Quebec are usually heroes from a long line of heroes, etc. Sorry Subby, but you are incorrect on this one.

Thus far, it appears that we're assuming maximum standard attacks and equipment for all combatants in our scenario. If the Samas get to have their Boxing and Plasma Missiles, then the Glitterboy has 8 attacks, from Boxing and being a Traditional Glitterboy Pilot.

There are more Quebec Glitter Boys than there are Traditional Glitter Boys. Since THAT would be the standard, then he has seven.

There are more Quebec Glitter Boys than Traditional Glitter Boys, but that is the only part of your statement that is correct. The standard Glitter Boy adventurer which I have always assumed we were talking about, not someone part of the Quebec Military, would have 8 attacks.

4. Have we forgotten that the Samas still need to roll a 14 or higher to hit the boomgun with the missiles? That's a 65% chance of missing. Please include that in your calculations.

They're not attacking the Boom Gun with their missiles. They're attacking the GB, doing half damage to the Boom Gun as splash damage.

That does not destroy the boomgun, which was my point.

5. If the Samas miss with their missile called shots, then the boomgun will only take half damage from the blast radius. Still not destroyed.

Melee damage against them Boom Gun ensues.

WWE references aside, I hope they brought a frickin' lunch, since they're only doing between 1d4 and 2d8 damage and you're still ignoring the called shots they need to make in order to do this. Oh yeah, and that's if the Glitter Boy doesn't decide to fire his boom gun to break free of the grapple, and/or deafen everyone next to him.

6. Even if you do hit the boomgun with your missile called shots, the Samas who have the Glitter Boy grappled are going to take half damage from the explosion. Thank you for damaging your own teammates for me.

If it keeps us alive, I'll count that as small price to pay.

A little meta-gaming does go a long way.

I'd like to meet the military commander that actually says, "Okay men, what we're going to do is close into melee range with that Glitterboy (Ignore his boomgun, you wussies!) pounce on him and beat the bejesus out of his boomgun until it's destroyed!" and considers this a standard tactic. No wonder you got passed over for your last promotion there, Sarge.

7. I have to give you credit, you're working really hard to put this in the Samas favor. One last thing though - A more accurate portrayal of this scenario would be to have 3 separate players each playing a Samas vs a single player playing the Glitterboy. You also seem to have included another Super Power in the Samas pilots' O.C.C. that I have yet to find: Flawless Coordination. I find it laughable that every action executed by the trio of Samas would be in perfect coordination, like this is some sort of Olympic Synchronized Swimming event. (the Russian judge gives you a 4, by the way ) Holy meta-gaming Batman!

You're assuming they cannot speak with each other. They can coordinate the attack ("I'll slam into him. When I do, Jim will grapple with him and you shoot him in the face.") Do you think they don't plan attacks the way sports teams plan plays? "If we come up against a Glitter Boy, we'll swarm him under, bypassing the Boom Gun and beating it to slag.

This still smacks more of meta-gaming than a serious tactic. While they might be able to come up with a loose plan ahead of time (involving getting close enough to be in melee combat with a Glitter Boy no less), once combat ensues their ability to communicate is a moot point as Jefffar pointed out. Their ability to 'perfectly coordinate', not that they had that to begin with, is gone. Your plan also plays heavily upon the Samas not having to split up to find the Glitter Boy in the first place. So somehow all 3 Samas are stuck together like stink on...? You get the idea.

7.a. Without your perfect coordination (tell me how that works again?) in all likelihood, the Samas will have to split up to locate the Glitterboy in the ruins. Now we're talking one on one, (until reinforcements arrive) which is bad news for the Samas.

Again, radar will detect the location of the GB. It just will not give line of sight.

You're assuming a lack of intelligence on the Glitter Boy's part. If the Glitter Boy is in a flat, open field, you would be correct. Of course he'll be right next to, or inside some large ruins. How does your radar spot him now? Now you have to go and find him the hard way. The Glitter Boy can use cover to his advantage too.

7.b. With 3 separate people now playing the 3 separate Samas, which is more realistic (and reduces meta-gaming), your chances for coordination are further reduced. Even the best-trained soldier (or gamer) is still an individual, free to make their own choices and may break out of this 'perfect plan' you've created.

Again, you think they don't plan ahead and run simulated attacks against Glitter Boys et al? Seriously? Dude, they're going to war with Quebec, and are expecting to fight Glitter Boys.

While I'm sure that there are some simulations run with this scenario, the book states that Free Quebec's Glitter Boy army was their secret weapon, and that no one had realized they'd built thousands of them until after the short-lived clash between them and the Coalition.

I'm still skeptical that even after their battle they'd spend hours and hours drilling (in three-man teams of Samas of course!) in their legendary (I was going to say mystical, but this is the Coalition we're talking about) combat simulators just vs Glitter Boys, you know, in case they ever see one again. And of course every Samas pilot who ever piloted a Samas has gone through this very same rigorous training you've imagined. And those very same 3 Samas pilots, who have stumbled into this encounter, have always trained together, since birth.

While your mega-game-fu is indeed powerful, you are assuming waaay too much.

[Nekira Sudacne]

EDIT: Point conceeded to subby. I opend my RUE book to check for the rule, and on page 345 of RIfts Ultimate under entangle it says clearly that one roll entangles it for the entire melee melee round.

Your right, i'm wrong.

[Jefffar]

Perhaps referencing Ninjas and Superspies and its more detailed hand to hand combat rules might be a good idea at this time.

[Jefffar]

Whenever you're trying to hit something other than the main body, you need a called shot. Some called shots have extra penalties.

[Mack]

Can anyone prove the the Boom gun NEEDS a called shot.

RUE, p362. Main Body: To strike something other than the main body, the attacker must make a "Called Shot,"

[Subjugator]

Please carefully read the definition of holds on R:UE page 345, 2nd column. It is a roll vs roll to maintain a hold. That clearly means it is action vs action. The hold is only maintained if the attacker beats the defender's roll.

It only 'clearly' means it is action vs. action if you add to the text.

Another unlikely coordinating attack. More meta-gaming.

Yeah. Radios don't exist in Rifts earth. They also don't train for how to fight GBs in Rifts earth, particularly when they're about to or have fought them in the past.

Please read R:UE page 69, 2nd Column under the description of Glitter Boys it clearly states that 'most Glitter Boys encountered anywhere outside of Free Quebec are usually heroes from a long line of heroes, etc. Sorry Subby, but you are incorrect on this one.

Read the context given. It's describing how Quebec doesn't share the technology and as a result, when you encounter those who are not from Free Quebec, they are likely to be a hero from a lone line of heroes. How many of those are in North America? 1,000? 2,000? Free Quebec has MANY thousands. It's more likely to be a Quebecois than it is a historical one.

There are more Quebec Glitter Boys than Traditional Glitter Boys, but that is the only part of your statement that is correct. The standard Glitter Boy adventurer which I have always assumed we were talking about, not someone part of the Quebec Military, would have 8 attacks.

We're referring to the commonest form of GB on the continent. That would be 'standard.'

That does not destroy the boomgun, which was my point.

It does enough to make short work of it in melee combat, which was mine.

WWE references aside, I hope they brought a frickin' lunch, since they're only doing between 1d4 and 2d8 damage and you're still ignoring the called shots they need to make in order to do this. Oh yeah, and that's if the Glitter Boy doesn't decide to fire his boom gun to break free of the grapple, and/or deafen everyone next to him.

Yup, but:

1. Big deal on the damage. With ~ 100 or so MD done to the gun by mini-missiles, and six attacks per round being made against his boom gun at 1D8 damage it goes pretty quickly, particularly when he cannot dodge.
2. Melee called shots are easier than shooting ones
3. There are zero rules for breaking a grapple by firing the Boom Gun. We're running with the rules as written. That wouldn't break the grapple.

A little meta-gaming does go a long way.

A little training goes a long way. I've said it before, and you're conveniently ignoring it. Is it because your argument is weak? The idea is to maximize survival while defeating the enemy. They train for ways to do that.

SAM2: "Glitterboy at 25 miles sir."
SAM1: "I see it. We'll land just outside of the 1.5 mile perimeter and move in under cover. Once we get close and have engaged him, SAM3 will take to the air, knock him down and grapple. I'll fire off my two mini-missiles, SAM3 will let go and I'll grab him, and then SAM3 and SAM2 will fire their mini-missiles into him as well. That'll damage his Boom Gun sufficiently for us to finish it off in hand to hand combat. After that we'll finish him with the C40s."
SAM3: "Yes sir!"
SAM2: "Yes sir!"

You honestly think they don't train for tactics that reduce the efficacy of the most powerful gun on the continent?

I'd like to meet the military commander that actually says, "Okay men, what we're going to do is close into melee range with that Glitterboy (Ignore his boomgun, you wussies!) pounce on him and beat the bejesus out of his boomgun until it's destroyed!" and considers this a standard tactic. No wonder you got passed over for your last promotion there, Sarge.

I'd like to meet the military commander that refuses an order to close with an enemy because it's too scary. Keeping in a spot where the Boom Gun can hit you is what'll kill you.

This still smacks more of meta-gaming than a serious tactic. While they might be able to come up with a loose plan ahead of time (involving getting close enough to be in melee combat with a Glitter Boy no less), once combat ensues their ability to communicate is a moot point as Jefffar pointed out. Their ability to 'perfectly coordinate', not that they had that to begin with, is gone. Your plan also plays heavily upon the Samas not having to split up to find the Glitter Boy in the first place. So somehow all 3 Samas are stuck together like stink on...? You get the idea.

Again, they can detect him via radar, just like he can detect them. Your plan plays heavily on the GB being able to detect the SAMs. They understand how to fight GBs. The tactics to do so are pretty well standardized. Take advantage of its slow speed. *shrug*

You're assuming a lack of intelligence on the Glitter Boy's part. If the Glitter Boy is in a flat, open field, you would be correct. Of course he'll be right next to, or inside some large ruins. How does your radar spot him now? Now you have to go and find him the hard way. The Glitter Boy can use cover to his advantage too.

This scenario doesn't paint that picture in the beginning. They know about each other and are engaging in combat. He can use cover AFTER he's been detected, just as the SAMs can. If he THEN moves into cover, then it becomes a waiting game. The SAMs still fare better here from a survival perspective. If both call in reinforcements, the SAMs have better ability to escape if the GB's arrive first. If the SAM's arrive first, the GB is slow, slow, slow.

While I'm sure that there are some simulations run with this scenario, the book states that Free Quebec's Glitter Boy army was their secret weapon, and that no one had realized they'd built thousands of them until after the short-lived clash between them and the Coalition.

The quantity of the GB's...not the quality of them.

I'm still skeptical that even after their battle they'd spend hours and hours drilling (in three-man teams of Samas of course!) in their legendary (I was going to say mystical, but this is the Coalition we're talking about) combat simulators just vs Glitter Boys, you know, in case they ever see one again. And of course every Samas pilot who ever piloted a Samas has gone through this very same rigorous training you've imagined. And those very same 3 Samas pilots, who have stumbled into this encounter, have always trained together, since birth.

Who said hours? I said they'd trained. It's rational to assume training against Rhino Buffaloes, Sowki, Neuron Beasts, Xiticix, Samson PA, Triax PA, Titan PA, et cetera. In the case of the GB, moving in under cover and then closing to melee is the most obvious choice against the Boom Gun...obvious enough that most people assumed it would be the way to defeat it. You think trained military minds won't also see that?

Please.

While your mega-game-fu is indeed powerful, you are assuming waaay too much.

Yeah, I'm assuming too much. Not you, who is being rude and mocking rather than actually addressing the points made by the opposing poster.

/Sub

[Shadow Wyrm]

Please carefully read the definition of holds on R:UE page 345, 2nd column. It is a roll vs roll to maintain a hold. That clearly means it is action vs action. The hold is only maintained if the attacker beats the defender's roll.

It only 'clearly' means it is action vs. action if you add to the text.

Another unlikely coordinating attack. More meta-gaming.

Yeah. Radios don't exist in Rifts earth. They also don't train for how to fight GBs in Rifts earth, particularly when they're about to or have fought them in the past.

Please read R:UE page 69, 2nd Column under the description of Glitter Boys it clearly states that 'most Glitter Boys encountered anywhere outside of Free Quebec are usually heroes from a long line of heroes, etc. Sorry Subby, but you are incorrect on this one.

Read the context given. It's describing how Quebec doesn't share the technology and as a result, when you encounter those who are not from Free Quebec, they are likely to be a hero from a lone line of heroes. How many of those are in North America? 1,000? 2,000? Free Quebec has MANY thousands. It's more likely to be a Quebecois than it is a historical one.

There are more Quebec Glitter Boys than Traditional Glitter Boys, but that is the only part of your statement that is correct. The standard Glitter Boy adventurer which I have always assumed we were talking about, not someone part of the Quebec Military, would have 8 attacks.

We're referring to the commonest form of GB on the continent. That would be 'standard.'

That does not destroy the boomgun, which was my point.

It does enough to make short work of it in melee combat, which was mine.

WWE references aside, I hope they brought a frickin' lunch, since they're only doing between 1d4 and 2d8 damage and you're still ignoring the called shots they need to make in order to do this. Oh yeah, and that's if the Glitter Boy doesn't decide to fire his boom gun to break free of the grapple, and/or deafen everyone next to him.

Yup, but:

1. Big deal on the damage. With ~ 100 or so MD done to the gun by mini-missiles, and six attacks per round being made against his boom gun at 1D8 damage it goes pretty quickly, particularly when he cannot dodge.
2. Melee called shots are easier than shooting ones
3. There are zero rules for breaking a grapple by firing the Boom Gun. We're running with the rules as written. That wouldn't break the grapple.

A little meta-gaming does go a long way.

A little training goes a long way. I've said it before, and you're conveniently ignoring it. Is it because your argument is weak? The idea is to maximize survival while defeating the enemy. They train for ways to do that.

SAM2: "Glitterboy at 25 miles sir."
SAM1: "I see it. We'll land just outside of the 1.5 mile perimeter and move in under cover. Once we get close and have engaged him, SAM3 will take to the air, knock him down and grapple. I'll fire off my two mini-missiles, SAM3 will let go and I'll grab him, and then SAM3 and SAM2 will fire their mini-missiles into him as well. That'll damage his Boom Gun sufficiently for us to finish it off in hand to hand combat. After that we'll finish him with the C40s."
SAM3: "Yes sir!"
SAM2: "Yes sir!"

You honestly think they don't train for tactics that reduce the efficacy of the most powerful gun on the continent?

I'd like to meet the military commander that actually says, "Okay men, what we're going to do is close into melee range with that Glitterboy (Ignore his boomgun, you wussies!) pounce on him and beat the bejesus out of his boomgun until it's destroyed!" and considers this a standard tactic. No wonder you got passed over for your last promotion there, Sarge.

I'd like to meet the military commander that refuses an order to close with an enemy because it's too scary. Keeping in a spot where the Boom Gun can hit you is what'll kill you.

This still smacks more of meta-gaming than a serious tactic. While they might be able to come up with a loose plan ahead of time (involving getting close enough to be in melee combat with a Glitter Boy no less), once combat ensues their ability to communicate is a moot point as Jefffar pointed out. Their ability to 'perfectly coordinate', not that they had that to begin with, is gone. Your plan also plays heavily upon the Samas not having to split up to find the Glitter Boy in the first place. So somehow all 3 Samas are stuck together like stink on...? You get the idea.

Again, they can detect him via radar, just like he can detect them. Your plan plays heavily on the GB being able to detect the SAMs. They understand how to fight GBs. The tactics to do so are pretty well standardized. Take advantage of its slow speed. *shrug*

You're assuming a lack of intelligence on the Glitter Boy's part. If the Glitter Boy is in a flat, open field, you would be correct. Of course he'll be right next to, or inside some large ruins. How does your radar spot him now? Now you have to go and find him the hard way. The Glitter Boy can use cover to his advantage too.

This scenario doesn't paint that picture in the beginning. They know about each other and are engaging in combat. He can use cover AFTER he's been detected, just as the SAMs can. If he THEN moves into cover, then it becomes a waiting game. The SAMs still fare better here from a survival perspective. If both call in reinforcements, the SAMs have better ability to escape if the GB's arrive first. If the SAM's arrive first, the GB is slow, slow, slow.

While I'm sure that there are some simulations run with this scenario, the book states that Free Quebec's Glitter Boy army was their secret weapon, and that no one had realized they'd built thousands of them until after the short-lived clash between them and the Coalition.

The quantity of the GB's...not the quality of them.

I'm still skeptical that even after their battle they'd spend hours and hours drilling (in three-man teams of Samas of course!) in their legendary (I was going to say mystical, but this is the Coalition we're talking about) combat simulators just vs Glitter Boys, you know, in case they ever see one again. And of course every Samas pilot who ever piloted a Samas has gone through this very same rigorous training you've imagined. And those very same 3 Samas pilots, who have stumbled into this encounter, have always trained together, since birth.

Who said hours? I said they'd trained. It's rational to assume training against Rhino Buffaloes, Sowki, Neuron Beasts, Xiticix, Samson PA, Triax PA, Titan PA, et cetera. In the case of the GB, moving in under cover and then closing to melee is the most obvious choice against the Boom Gun...obvious enough that most people assumed it would be the way to defeat it. You think trained military minds won't also see that?

Please.

While your mega-game-fu is indeed powerful, you are assuming waaay too much.

Yeah, I'm assuming too much. Not you, who is being rude and mocking rather than actually addressing the points made by the opposing poster.

/Sub

You guys should just put your railguns on the table and messure.

[Shark_Force]

at the very least, it should require an action to attempt to escape the hold... getting a free initial defense is fine, but once you're caught, it should require some effort to get free.

i do agree that training vs common opponent types will be standard. the military pays you the same whether you're sitting in a chair or doing training. actual combat missions they may have to pay more (hazard pay; not sure how it works in real world, but i don't think the CS offers it?), but training? they'll be calling you in for regular training in all kinds of stuff. that's what full-time soldiers do when they're not busy out doing the real thing, is train to do the real thing.

[Nekira Sudacne]

EDIT: Point conceeded to subby. I opend my RUE book to check for the rule, and on page 345 of RIfts Ultimate under entangle it says clearly that one roll entangles it for the entire melee round.

Your right, i'm wrong.

Entangle is clear but Entangle is a Defender's action. We are talking about a Hold and the tempo is not so clear.

I interpret the Hold to be an Att to Att action because of how it is written and because of the standard tempo of the game which is Att to Att and the fact that nothing else is Round to Round...even Entangle, since the Attacker can burn Dodges on their Att until they break the Entangle.

WildWalker

Entangle can be used either way. However, Hold would logically follow the same rule as entangle.

[Subjugator]

I am new here so feel free to ignore anything in this post but -

3 SAMAS has 18 total attacks where as the GB has 8, why wouldn't the SAMAS just go defensive until the GB was out of attacks and just use all the rest of their attacks to burn him down round after round.

Example -

GB attack 1, SAM1 attempts to dodge (if required)
GB attack 2, SAM1 attempts to dodge (if required)
GB attack 3, SAM1 attempts to dodge (if required)
GB attack 4, SAM1 attempts to dodge (if required)
GB attack 5, SAM1 attempts to dodge (if required)
GB attack 6, SAM1 attempts to dodge (if required)
GB attack 7, SAM1 attempts to dodge (if required and has actions left over)
GB attack 8, SAM1 attempts to dodge (if required and has actions left over)

Say SAM1 now has 0 attacks because he was forced to dodge, you still have 12 more attacks which they can go all out on the GB.

Say it takes two full rounds to kill SAM1 (probably average with all the defense bonus) the GB would have to survive at least 24 attacks from the SAMs.

This isn't even going into getting in close and just taking out the Boomgun, or using those 24 extra actions to attack only the Boomgun.

Simply math would show that the GB has very little chance of wining this fight.

I didn't factor in terrain as both parties could potentially use the terrain equally to their advantage. The only thing that would make a huge difference is if the GB was able to kill one of the SAMs before they got into range to fire back, in which case it isn't 3 vs 1 its 2 vs 1. Even this though would be roll of the die as the SAMs will be closing in and dodging (again using simple math) making them very difficult to hit.

Lastly as far as the military goes you can bet your ass they have standard rules of engagement for almost everything, I can assure you the CS would not still be around in a combat heavy world if they didn't train and prepare for the known enemies. The GB is a known enemy and I am sure anyone with half a brain would have closing the distance to neutralize the boomgun as a standard ROE.

Hi Rystar,

People cannot get past the huge damage done by the Boom Gun.

*shrug*

/Sub

[Killer Cyborg]

I am new here so feel free to ignore anything in this post but -

3 SAMAS has 18 total attacks where as the GB has 8, why wouldn't the SAMAS just go defensive until the GB was out of attacks and just use all the rest of their attacks to burn him down round after round.

Example -

GB attack 1, SAM1 attempts to dodge (if required)
GB attack 2, SAM1 attempts to dodge (if required)
GB attack 3, SAM1 attempts to dodge (if required)
GB attack 4, SAM1 attempts to dodge (if required)
GB attack 5, SAM1 attempts to dodge (if required)
GB attack 6, SAM1 attempts to dodge (if required)
GB attack 7, SAM1 attempts to dodge (if required and has actions left over)
GB attack 8, SAM1 attempts to dodge (if required and has actions left over)

Say SAM1 now has 0 attacks because he was forced to dodge, you still have 12 more attacks which they can go all out on the GB.

Say it takes two full rounds to kill SAM1 (probably average with all the defense bonus) the GB would have to survive at least 24 attacks from the SAMs.

My response would be to fire only simultaneous attacks back at the SAMs once they're in range, that way dodging isn't an issue.

This isn't even going into getting in close and just taking out the Boomgun, or using those 24 extra actions to attack only the Boomgun.

Called Shots would be required.

Simply math would show that the GB has very little chance of wining this fight.

At 3 to 1 odds, I'd say the SAMs definitely have the edge.

[Dog_O_War]

As arrogant as this sounds, it's typically nothing of note.

As arrogant as this may sound, you've made it clear you've not put real thought into it.

That doesn't matter as there are three factors that can negate the dodge attempt.

These don't negate it. I did an analysis of the qualities of each attack and what the odds of hitting are. The GB loses in large part because of this.

You've done no such analysis. If you had you would realize that before combat begins for the SAMAS one will be dead.

And as the senario dictates, that one is the SAMAS with the busted flight-controls, as it is an arial PA that does not qualify for most of the bonuses you seem to have calculated in the miss-chance of the Glitterboy.

The first is that every dodge made is one less attack the Glitterboy will suffer, and the Glitterboy has more attacks per melee than the SAMAS does - which means that while they have a better bonus to dodge, they can't dodge everything.

They cannot dodge everything, but as a rule they have well over a 50% chance that each attack made by the GB will miss, whether that is through dodging or through a flat out miss.

So they're dodging everything (except one attack per round) and not making any incoming attacks?

Even if they make it to melee combat they can't even out-melee the Glitterboy at that point. Especially since they still suffer the effects (though reduced) of a boomgun going off in their ears. A deafened character makes a terrible melee combatant, and I'm betting that the Glitterboy is going to take every opportunity it has to move and fire close-range (which makes the attacks virtually undodgeable).

The second is that you cannot dodge a long-range/hidden attack.

Attack number 1 cannot be dodged. Gotcha.

And don't forget that you need to have attacks to make them. It's going to be tough to melee when you've spent the entire time dodging or manuvering.

The third is a simultaineous strike.

Yeah. Why are you assuming simultaneous strikes? They're not attacking, they're closing for melee.

When they get to melee simultaineous strikes don't simply disappear, and until you successfully grapple and pin the Glitterboy (which is impossible as it can simply have its firing spikes remain planted) you can and will suffer simultaineous strikes from the boomgun.

I've already mentioned why this is a non-issue. The Glitterboy has superior sensory equipment, meaning that barring hard cover the GB can see the SAMAS through walls and such.

1. Where are you seeing that the GB has 'superior sensory equipment that lets it see through walls and such'? There is nothing to indicate this, and we're talking hills of rubble.
2. If you're referring to thermo imaging, SAMAS PA has thermo imaging built in as well. It doesn't let you look through eight or nine feet of rubble to see a SAMAS. It lets you look through six inches of drywall and insulation. There's a difference.

Actually the SAMAS doesn't. I'm reading the entry right now and there is not a single mention of it having thermo. Nor is it under the "PA has these standard systems" bit.
And where does it say that the thermo-imagers don't pick up the massive amounts of heat radiating off the backs of their flying jets? Basically all the GB has to do is see your stink-lines (radiating heat) and fire into your cover.

There is no way "melee" combat will negate the use of the boomgun. That and all that would do is ensure that the SAMAS cannot dodge the boomgun at all.

Really, so you think that a SAMAS that is grappling with the GB can be shot by the boom gun that sticks out beyond the range of where the SAMAS is?

Did I say that?
Or did I say "I considered all of this".

Remember that a GB cannot even lift the weight of three SAMs (max lifting weight of a GB is 1500lbs - three SAMs without the weight of their pilots is 1866 lbs - add pilots at approximately 200lbs each and you're up to 2466lbs, well beyond the lifting weight of a GB)

He doesn't have to, one is a sitting duck on the ground and will be taken out before he can even reach melee. Remember that Glitterboy can match this ones' speed and thus kite him.

, and if they knock him down,

Which they can't as the firing spikes prevent that.

his ability to shoot will be hampered to say the least. FYI - each individual SAMAS weighs (including the pilot) 822lbs, more than a knocked down GB can rationally lift, as their lifting weight is for the whole body working in concert and not just an arm.

Hampered? No. Even at shooting wild I still hit with more than 50% of my attacks, and you can't dodge any of them because of the incredible penalties for being that close and not flying.
And at 50% per round that's still a dead SAMAS.

This ties in with the fast-moving target senario; it negates itself with the penalties it provides.

Um, no...it doesn't. Once again, they aren't shooting. They are moving in to attack in melee combat. They are better off moving in under cover though, as that leaves them with much better bonuses. Either way, the GB has < 50% chance of hitting on each attack. Things don't look good for him.

So now they aren't using their primary weapons?
What kind of patrol is this? Oh yeah, this is the "we know the exact best method of combatting a GB" patrol.

BTW - here's how the dodges work to the advantage of the SAMs:

SAM dodges, he loses one attack. That leaves seventeen other attacks this round to hurt the GB.
GB dodges, he loses one attack. That leaves (at most) seven other attacks this round to hurt the SAMs.

He uses 12.5% of his attack power to dodge. They use 5.5% of their attack power to dodge.

/Sub

Actually, here's how the GB dodges; he doesn't because he doesn't have to. Every time you dodge, you lose your next attack. Even if he's only shooting at one SAMAS, it's a round-robin of attacks - which means the following. Every time you shoot at the GB he takes his god-send called simultaineous strike and lays a round into you, cutting your HP by 1/3. Thus each SAMAS can shoot a GB 3 times before it is assuredly dead, meaning that in the long-run he suffers less damage because he can't statistically dodge any of the SAMAS attacks with any amount of success, so he will simply be better-off eliminating the threat before the battle goes on for too long.

[Dog_O_War]

I am new here so feel free to ignore anything in this post but -

3 SAMAS has 18 total attacks where as the GB has 8, why wouldn't the SAMAS just go defensive until the GB was out of attacks and just use all the rest of their attacks to burn him down round after round.

Example -

GB attack 1, SAM1 attempts to dodge (if required)
GB attack 2, SAM1 attempts to dodge (if required)
GB attack 3, SAM1 attempts to dodge (if required)
GB attack 4, SAM1 attempts to dodge (if required)
GB attack 5, SAM1 attempts to dodge (if required)
GB attack 6, SAM1 attempts to dodge (if required)
GB attack 7, SAM1 attempts to dodge (if required and has actions left over)
GB attack 8, SAM1 attempts to dodge (if required and has actions left over)

Say SAM1 now has 0 attacks because he was forced to dodge, you still have 12 more attacks which they can go all out on the GB.

Even statistics will kill a dodging SAMAS every turn. And besides this, the first attack each round is undodgeable.

Say it takes two full rounds to kill SAM1 (probably average with all the defense bonus) the GB would have to survive at least 24 attacks from the SAMs.

Which he can as the statistical average is only 600 damage. And that is only if they're using their railguns.

This isn't even going into getting in close and just taking out the Boomgun, or using those 24 extra actions to attack only the Boomgun.

Which they can't as they have the two types of weapons that disallow called shots; burst weapons and missiles.

Simply math would show that the GB has very little chance of wining this fight.

Perhaps then you should practice simple math, as it rightfully shows the exact opposite.

I didn't factor in terrain as both parties could potentially use the terrain equally to their advantage. The only thing that would make a huge difference is if the GB was able to kill one of the SAMs before they got into range to fire back, in which case it isn't 3 vs 1 its 2 vs 1.

Which is completely possible as one is a foot-slogger instead of a flier.

Even this though would be roll of the die as the SAMs will be closing in and dodging (again using simple math) making them very difficult to hit.

Difficult, yes. but if they're closing in, they aren't shooting, and thus the GB isn't suffering attacks. If they are shooting, they do so at a huge penalty for moving and thus aren't likely to hit.
So even once they get there, they still will suffer the same fate; death at the hands of a Glitterboy.

Lastly as far as the military goes you can bet your ass they have standard rules of engagement for almost everything,

Yes they do. They send three specialized PAs that are tougher than the SAMAS to combat Glitterboys. And the reason they send three is because they (Glitterboys) are still statistically likely to kill two before they even get there.

So honestly, do you still think that three non-specialized PAs with inferior armour and weapons to the specialized PAs designed for the job will do better?

[Dog_O_War]

Another thing, what is to stop the SAMAS from FLYING up 2 and a half miles above the GBs head and just raining hell down on him?

The Rules.
The boomgun still fires 30% farther than the maximum range listed, which would put that at 2.6 miles.
As well, that puts your railguns completely out of range and thus on auto-miss.
Finally, the suit itself only has a maximum altitude of 500 feet, so even from a "realistic" point of view that won't work.

[Killer Cyborg]

Actually, here's how the GB dodges; he doesn't because he doesn't have to. Every time you dodge, you lose your next attack. Even if he's only shooting at one SAMAS, it's a round-robin of attacks - which means the following. Every time you shoot at the GB he takes his god-send called simultaineous strike and lays a round into you, cutting your HP by 1/3. Thus each SAMAS can shoot a GB 3 times before it is assuredly dead, meaning that in the long-run he suffers less damage because he can't statistically dodge any of the SAMAS attacks with any amount of success, so he will simply be better-off eliminating the threat before the battle goes on for too long.

See the thing is the SAMs wouldn't be lined up right next to each other facing him, I assume anyone with half a brain would flank him.

Which would work great IF the start out surrounding him.
If not, then that means that all three start of facing him, and two have to fly around at least even with him (on opposite sides), if not actually past him.
So he still gets to shoot them up a bit before they get into position

Whoever is the unlucky SAMAS that the Boomgun is facing would be using his attacks to dodge. The other two would be around him or out of easy firing angle so he couldn't simply sit back and go shot for shot. They would not even have to have penalties to hit as they would be firing at him almost standing still. There is absolutely no reasonable way (without miracle dice rolls) the GB could win a 3 on 1 if the SAMAS have equal intelligence. Again I did not factor in terrain as both parties could use it equally.

Terrain IS a factor, though- there is plenty of debris around.
The GB can put his back to a wall (or boulder, or whatever) and stop himself from being outflanked.
The SAMAS on the ground could use the debris as cover (or concealment) when he moves up, of course, but I'm not sure that this works out as equal advantage.

[Killer Cyborg]

The question of shooting down at the GB is an interesting one (if also moot due to the limited altitude the SAMs are capable of).
Gravity would be pulling the rounds forward, but air resistance would still be slowing the rounds down.
I don't have the physics skills to know for sure, but I'd expect the rounds to be significantly slowed by the time they reached the GB.

Also, there's a strike penalty for shooting beyond a weapon's range limit.

[Subjugator]

You've done no such analysis. If you had you would realize that before combat begins for the SAMAS one will be dead.

First of all, don't tell me what I have and have not done. Read the ******* thread and you'll see that I've actually posted the odds of the GB striking, and they're really frickin' bad.

And as the senario dictates, that one is the SAMAS with the busted flight-controls, as it is an arial PA that does not qualify for most of the bonuses you seem to have calculated in the miss-chance of the Glitterboy.

Yes, but he can still jump, which still gives him the +5 to dodge when flying or leaping. As for the rest, again, I'm assuming he's moving in on the ground under cover, so that's not really relevant to the equation. That puts the minuses for the GB to hit him at range to at least -12.

So they're dodging everything (except one attack per round) and not making any incoming attacks?

While they move in, yes. Also, they're only dodging when they are attacked. He only has 7 or 8 attacks a round. Some of those will flat out miss, and the rest can be dodged.

Even if they make it to melee combat they can't even out-melee the Glitterboy at that point. Especially since they still suffer the effects (though reduced) of a boomgun going off in their ears. A deafened character makes a terrible melee combatant, and I'm betting that the Glitterboy is going to take every opportunity it has to move and fire close-range (which makes the attacks virtually undodgeable).

1. They'll be hitting the Boom Gun, not the main body.
2. Being in CS Power Armor (which is not light PA in any case), they are immune to the effects of the Boom Gun - 'most CS military vehicles are immune to the effects of the Boom Gun'
3. He'll not be attacking when he's grappled. When they're up close though, the attack IS virtually undodgeable.

And don't forget that you need to have attacks to make them. It's going to be tough to melee when you've spent the entire time dodging or manuvering.

Only one of them needs to dodge for each action of the Glitter Boy. The others are free to act as they please.

Also, once they've grappled and engaged in melee combat, he's not going to be shooting his Boom Gun.

When they get to melee simultaineous strikes don't simply disappear, and until you successfully grapple and pin the Glitterboy (which is impossible as it can simply have its firing spikes remain planted) you can and will suffer simultaineous strikes from the boomgun.

If it's leaving its firing spikes planted, it cannot dodge. Also, if you do a full speed ram when its spikes are planted, it'll bend at the knees. Besides that, it can be held whether or not it's knocked down.

Actually the SAMAS doesn't. I'm reading the entry right now and there is not a single mention of it having thermo. Nor is it under the "PA has these standard systems" bit. And where does it say that the thermo-imagers don't pick up the massive amounts of heat radiating off the backs of their flying jets? Basically all the GB has to do is see your stink-lines (radiating heat) and fire into your cover.

It has thermo imaging as per page 114, Coalition War Campaign. I've cited this before in this thread...to you I believe.

Oh, I agree that thermo imaging will show the general area where the PA is, but unless you can specifically see it, you're still firing blind. That means that simply seeing the general area where it is doesn't count - you have to see it. If you had a full heat signature, that'd be one thing, but you won't. You'll see residue...not the actual target.

Besides, I've said...repeatedly...that they'll be moving in on foot, under cover. They will not be using their jets once they're moving in on foot.

Did I say that?
Or did I say "I considered all of this".

You said it, but it's evident that you have not. If you had, there wouldn't be the problems in your theory.

He doesn't have to, one is a sitting duck on the ground and will be taken out before he can even reach melee. Remember that Glitterboy can match this ones' speed and thus kite him.

He cannot kite when he's knocked down by another SAM. Also, the SAM won't be taken out with a total of -12 to strike and +5 to dodge...and if the GB is moving, it's even worse. Keep ignoring the numbers though, it'll make your side sound much better.

Which they can't as the firing spikes prevent that.

His knees can bend. Same effect.

Hampered? No. Even at shooting wild I still hit with more than 50% of my attacks, and you can't dodge any of them because of the incredible penalties for being that close and not flying.

You're shooting BLIND at first. After that, when knocked down, you're shooting wild. They get +5 to dodge when flying OR LEAPING.

And at 50% per round that's still a dead SAMAS.

That number is WAY off. He has closer to a 15% chance to strike (with bonuses) when they're moving in under cover. THEN they get to dodge at +5, which gives them a minimum of a 20% chance to dodge (on a non-crit roll).

So now they aren't using their primary weapons?
What kind of patrol is this? Oh yeah, this is the "we know the exact best method of combatting a GB" patrol.

This is the one that trained, a fact that you're STILL conveniently ignoring. You're the one suggesting kiting the SAMs. Is this the GB that knows the best method of fighting three SAMs?

Every time you shoot at the GB he takes his god-send called simultaineous strike and lays a round into you, cutting your HP by 1/3.

Good thing I've said...repeatedly...that they're not shooting at him. They're moving in for melee combat, where he cannot use his Boom Gun.

/Sub