RUE Hand to Hand-Commando Auto Dodge Question

[Yendor]

Since it seems to be missing from CWC to RUE update, what level do those with HtH-Commando get Automatic Dodge at? CWC lists it at Level 5, but RUE Hand to Hand-Commando only lists "5th Level: +2 to Automatic Dodge."

[Balabanto]

That's when you get it, and you get a +2 Bonus.

[grandmaster z0b]

I personally only apply the Commando auto-dodge to hand to hand combat rather than ranged combat. It's a house rule but it seems silly that all of a sudden commandos have the same super human reflexes as a Juicer or Crazy.

[Dustin Fireblade]

I personally only apply the Commando auto-dodge to hand to hand combat rather than ranged combat. It's a house rule but it seems silly that all of a sudden commandos have the same super human reflexes as a Juicer or Crazy.

I think of it as superior combat training allowing anticipation far better than most soldiers.

[Ziggurat the Eternal]

I personally only apply the Commando auto-dodge to hand to hand combat rather than ranged combat. It's a house rule but it seems silly that all of a sudden commandos have the same super human reflexes as a Juicer or Crazy.

I think of it as superior combat training allowing anticipation far better than most soldiers.

i do the same.

[Balabanto]

I treat it as S.C.A.R.S. or the equivalent.

[Shark_Force]

I treat it as S.C.A.R.S. or the equivalent.

??? care to explain,please. PM me if you must.

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=s.c ... =s.c.a.r.s. (at a guess)

[Balabanto]

Yes. That is correct. This is why people always ask me "Why do you allow all those 4 skill martial arts with body hardening techniques, etc?"

And my answer is always "Hand to hand Commando is better." No matter what people might think those arts grant them, HTH commando is better than 90 percent of them and costs way less.

[grandmaster z0b]

I personally only apply the Commando auto-dodge to hand to hand combat rather than ranged combat. It's a house rule but it seems silly that all of a sudden commandos have the same super human reflexes as a Juicer or Crazy.

I think of it as superior combat training allowing anticipation far better than most soldiers.

Actually I find it hard to understand how much better it is comparatively. Every other class that gets auto-dodge has Super-human reflexes, which generally have a severe cost; Juicers die and Crazies go crazy, Grey Seers get it because they can see the future but they are also pacifists. However all of a sudden a guy that's in the army gets to learn a skill that makes him the equivalent of these superhumans with no drawback?

To me it's like introducing a skill that all of sudden allowed you to do MD punches without any sort of magic, psychic or tech powers. For me that's the real power creep, I don't mind guns and spells that do more damage; that's an arms race, but these new skills that have all the advantages but none of the disadvantages they annoy me.

[csbioborg]

you should watch a boxer with really good head movement spar a guy that isn't that great

you'll see why autododge is reasonable

its not a matter of speed but of skill

[grandmaster z0b]

you should watch a boxer with really good head movement spar a guy that isn't that great

you'll see why autododge is reasonable

its not a matter of speed but of skill

Well thanks for the advice but strangely enough I have watched boxing before.

By that logic everyone who has the skill of boxing should get auto-dodge at some stage (or maybe only if they also have the skill "really good head movement"). Also in your example it's actually far more reasonable to suggest that one boxer is higher level and simply has more attacks per round.

This is a rules question; why should commandos get auto-dodge when all other forms of hand to hand combat do not and it is usually only available to select super humans who have speed and reaction times far greater than a normal human. Remember this isn't just the ability to move out of the way quicker but to be moving so quickly and to be so twitchy and hyper that they get a dodge even when attacked by surprise from behind.

[Dustin Fireblade]

I personally only apply the Commando auto-dodge to hand to hand combat rather than ranged combat. It's a house rule but it seems silly that all of a sudden commandos have the same super human reflexes as a Juicer or Crazy.

I think of it as superior combat training allowing anticipation far better than most soldiers.

Actually I find it hard to understand how much better it is comparatively. Every other class that gets auto-dodge has Super-human reflexes, which generally have a severe cost; Juicers die and Crazies go crazy, Grey Seers get it because they can see the future but they are also pacifists. However all of a sudden a guy that's in the army gets to learn a skill that makes him the equivalent of these superhumans with no drawback?

To me it's like introducing a skill that all of sudden allowed you to do MD punches without any sort of magic, psychic or tech powers. For me that's the real power creep, I don't mind guns and spells that do more damage; that's an arms race, but these new skills that have all the advantages but none of the disadvantages they annoy me.

But doesn't it create parity amongst the OCC's though? Normal humans can now get the ability with this skill, and it's a expensive skill to get to just select few combat OCC's. How many OCC's actually start with this skill anyway? I can only think of three off top of my head (CS Commando and Special Forces, and the Paratrooper). And it's really not that high of a bonus when compared to what the augmented OCC's could end up with.

Also, going way back to Conversion Book 1, the original at least, the section on dodging provides the Rifts players two options for considering how dodge works - both are quite valid. Now those with auto-dodge via Commando HtH simply take it to another level because of their training.

Lastly, I do agree with you in principle - all the HtH skills grant a particular move at some level, and a lot of them get a +2, +3 or maybe even higher right off the bat. I'd prefer a system where the bonus are gained more gradually.

[grandmaster z0b]

I personally only apply the Commando auto-dodge to hand to hand combat rather than ranged combat. It's a house rule but it seems silly that all of a sudden commandos have the same super human reflexes as a Juicer or Crazy.

I think of it as superior combat training allowing anticipation far better than most soldiers.

Actually I find it hard to understand how much better it is comparatively. Every other class that gets auto-dodge has Super-human reflexes, which generally have a severe cost; Juicers die and Crazies go crazy, Grey Seers get it because they can see the future but they are also pacifists. However all of a sudden a guy that's in the army gets to learn a skill that makes him the equivalent of these superhumans with no drawback?

To me it's like introducing a skill that all of sudden allowed you to do MD punches without any sort of magic, psychic or tech powers. For me that's the real power creep, I don't mind guns and spells that do more damage; that's an arms race, but these new skills that have all the advantages but none of the disadvantages they annoy me.

But doesn't it create parity amongst the OCC's though? Normal humans can now get the ability with this skill, and it's a expensive skill to get to just select few combat OCC's. How many OCC's actually start with this skill anyway? I can only think of three off top of my head (CS Commando and Special Forces, and the Paratrooper). And it's really not that high of a bonus when compared to what the augmented OCC's could end up with.

Also, going way back to Conversion Book 1, the original at least, the section on dodging provides the Rifts players two options for considering how dodge works - both are quite valid. Now those with auto-dodge via Commando HtH simply take it to another level because of their training.

Lastly, I do agree with you in principle - all the HtH skills grant a particular move at some level, and a lot of them get a +2, +3 or maybe even higher right off the bat. I'd prefer a system where the bonus are gained more gradually.

I suppose I don't want it to create parity with the other OCC's, as the Juicer and Crazy get definite disadvantages for the special ability to auto-dodge. Military OCCs tend to have their own advantages; access to military gear and vehicles, cybernetic upgrades, they usually get a good skill selection and some other combat bonuses.

Maybe I would allow it but only if you knew the attack was coming, not the true auto-dodge that Crazies and Juicers get.

Also I appreciate the civilised tone that this discussion has had, and I'm glad it hasn't degenerated into an argument, thanks everyone!

Lastly sorry if I've threadjacked but it seemed the initial question had been answered.

[Balabanto]

The answer is, it DOESN'T provide parity with Juicer and Crazy autododge because Automatic Dodge itself is just a maneuver that doesn't cost you an action. Crazies and Juicers can autododge even if they CAN'T see it coming. Big difference.

[Shadow Wyrm]

The answer is, it DOESN'T provide parity with Juicer and Crazy autododge because Automatic Dodge itself is just a maneuver that doesn't cost you an action. Crazies and Juicers can autododge even if they CAN'T see it coming. Big difference.

I think that might be part of the problem with Commando auto-dodge, the ability has a fuzzy discription for the commando. A small note in the HTH commando text might solve this debate in the future.

[grandmaster z0b]

The answer is, it DOESN'T provide parity with Juicer and Crazy autododge because Automatic Dodge itself is just a maneuver that doesn't cost you an action. Crazies and Juicers can autododge even if they CAN'T see it coming. Big difference.

You see I thought that is a better way too run it but that Auto-dodge always provided you with a free dodge even if you couldn't see it coming.

I think that might be part of the problem with Commando auto-dodge, the ability has a fuzzy discription for the commando. A small note in the HTH commando text might solve this debate in the future.

Agreed.

[csbioborg]

seriously at the end of the day you need the CS to be able to stand up to Mystic knights and Magnus
which get ridicoulous bonunes and extra attacks especially in the case of the battle magus

this arguement coulod be mre readily used on the battle magnus better than the CS Commando

[grandmaster z0b]

seriously at the end of the day you need the CS to be able to stand up to Mystic knights and Magnus
which get ridicoulous bonunes and extra attacks especially in the case of the battle magus

this arguement coulod be mre readily used on the battle magnus better than the CS Commando

Well considering we were discussing autododge I don't see how that's particularly appropriate. Anyway the CS doesn't need some super hand to hand combat to stand up to Mystic knights and Battle Magus' they have power armour, giants robots, borgs, juicers etc.

(Although this Magnus guy who gets ridiculous bonunes sounds pretty awesome)

[csbioborg]

well not really
at the end of the day we are discussing how a normal albiet very well trained person is getting similar bonunes to a augemented person like a juicer

a commando is getting it through autododge
a magnus is getting it though many extra attacks and other bonues

[grandmaster z0b]

well not really
at the end of the day we are discussing how a normal albiet very well trained person is getting similar bonunes to a augemented person like a juicer

a commando is getting it through autododge
a magnus is getting it though many extra attacks and other bonues

Actually I agree that a magus get's too many bonuses, especially post-RUE when they can cast quicker. At least they have a reason behind it though, they are augmented through magic.

[csbioborg]

well not really
at the end of the day we are discussing how a normal albiet very well trained person is getting similar bonunes to a augemented person like a juicer

a commando is getting it through autododge
a magnus is getting it though many extra attacks and other bonues

Actually I agree that a magus get's too many bonuses, especially post-RUE when they can cast quicker. At least they have a reason behind it though, they are augmented through magic.

their combat abilities are not
they get those bonues simply due to their training

[grandmaster z0b]

From RUE 344:
"Automatic Dodge: Certain characters and creatures are able to automatically dodge an attack without using up a melee attack/action. It is purely a defensive move in which the dodger bobs, weaves, bends or twists his body out of harm's way. Roll for a dodge as normal (the automatic dodge is not an "automatic" success). An automatic dodge works Just like a (automatic) parry in that the act of dodging does not use up an attack to perform. Bonuses to auto-dodge come from the character's P.P. attribute and any special bonus specifically for it (the bonus, skill or enhancement will say "automatic dodge"). Unless it specifically says a character has an Automatic Dodge, he does NOT."

Hopefully that clears up the issue of whether or not auto-dodge = Juicer/Crazy auto-dodge. It's just a free action. Normal auto-dodge does not let you dodge attacks from behind or surprise attacks. Add to that an auto-dodge is almost always lower than a character's normal dodge or parry bonus plus the auto-dodge bonus from HTH: Commando is always lower than Juicer/Crazy auto-dodge and not gained until level 5. And how many O.C.C.s actually get access to HTH: Commando? Only 3 in the main book (and that's counting the Crazy who already gets auto-dodge). Sure there are others, but clearly this is not a common skill.

So what's with all the whining?

Actually that clears that up, I assumed that they got the auto-dodge from behind. So thank-you for that.

However having an opinion about a rule is hardly whining and I don't think that's really called for.