How I killed vampires

[Nightmaster]

Ok, first off, a 5 degree temprature drop isn't actually that major of a global effect. Furthermore, the effect wouldn't be permanent and would at the max last 5 years. Krakatoa, which is the closest catastrophic equivalent in volcanic form, did affect a temperature drop of a few degrees for about 3 years and was only major the year it erupted, which was the year that is now known as the year without a summer. That was in 1883 and I don't know of any major die offs of cities and the like from freezing. In fact, the Little Ice Age (16th-mid-19th century) had a larger average global temperature drop than resulted from Krakatoa or Pinatubo (1991) and it is fairly apparent that we all survived that without too much difficulty. If you really want to argue it, the average global temperature dropped 7 degrees CELCIUS during the last Ice Age. That is an even larger drop in Fahrenheit, but there isn't a really good way to say what it is because of the difference in the scales and unfortunately, all scientific work is done in Celcius or Kelvin, which are equivalent scales. Saying that people cannot adapt to this is simply wrong as serfs in the 16th century did, and are (apparently)smarter than the CS or NGR. Also consider the fact that America was being settled during the time of the Little Ice Age and we did survive.
Steeler49 has the right of it. Why would the CS care about the 'Burbs (they typically raze them every so often anyway) or the Kingdoms of their enemies? Again we already have genetically altered plants and animals (we've been breeding them for centuries, how else do we have dogs, cats, and the "Tea cup pig"-5 years to breed w/out genetic manipulation). Weather? Ever hear of the Farmer's Almanac? Radar weather reports are the common standard TODAY (and the CS definitely has radar) but they weren't in the past and many races on RE come from Palladium, they KNOW their weather the same way our ancestors did, they lived it and survived it, else you and I would not be here having this discussion.
As far as painting a target? They will probably pause and go "OMFG, who did that?" and If they tried attacking we repeat the process to their capitol cities, Splynn himself would not touch that w/ a 2 light year pole. Bad for bussiness and all that old chum.

1st. The 5 degree drop is a example of how a sudden drop in global temperature can affect the environment and plant life in a lot of ways. Remember that the majority of plant life forms on earth need specific ambient temperatures to live, grown and develop into full maturity for it actually be harvested. An actual nuclear winter would see drops way more lower than 5 degrees, more around 12+ degrees.

2nd. Your example of Krakatoa just exemplify what I am saying. Krakatoa was a island, not a subcontinent like the Mexican peninsula, and it affect the climate of the entire world for 3 years. Just scale this up for the size of Mexico and the impact you have implied and you will see the results.

3rd. Yes we survived from 16th to 19th century but that only happened thanks to the fact that the drop in temperature was not instantaneous. The drop in temperature occurred over a couple of years, like any normal climate event. Time is the essential detail, since given time all life forms can adapt to its environment. If the temperature world wide droped 7 degrees in a matter of weeks instead of years like it was during the 16th-19th centuries you can bet that the majority of plant and animal life on the world would not have survived and with then we humans too would not have survived.

4th. Radar weather are the standard today for local weather reports not global report. In fact the majority of the weather reports need data from satellites so that they can be accurate, otherwise we come back to the age, like a few years ago, were the weather man announces rain in three weeks and we get blazing sun instead. Even if radar weather detection is accurate (something i doub) it will only reflect a small region, or in this case the CS territory and nearby areas. It will be unable to detect major changes in weather in the world until it actually happens.

5th. The people that would attack you will first attack your means to use such destructive force. In this case they will search and destroy your beloved orbital gun and later they will come for you.

6th and final. I am not here to disrupt Rats thread. I have argued that what you did in your game would result in the dead of billions thanks for the change in environment caused by such event you staged, since food production would be severely disrupted world wide.

For me that discussion is over.

[Nightmaster]

I havent destroyed the Vampires in Mexico but I have created a weapon to be plot device during one of my campaigns. I still use it but so far my players havent managed to discolver it.

The weapon is a TW Laser Rifle that work both on mundane materials (like power armors, EBA and etc) as in vampires and creatures harmed by sunlight. It was been create by a unamed Colorado Barony TW scientist that intent to sell it to the comunities near the Mexican border like El-Paso and Ciudad Juarez. However as the legend claim, the scientist was killed by his assistant and the plans for the weapon were stolen. The assistant wanted to sell the weapon to Kingsdale Black Market but was killed by a band of Broodkill bandids on his way to Kingsdale and the plans and prototype of the weapon were lost.

The legend says that the attack occured in a area near the ruins of the city of Great Bend in kansas, and that although the Broodkill have killed everyone they didnt destroied the plans or the prototype simply because they couldnt open the case were they were keep. The case was enchanted and only the assistant and the deceased TW scientist knew how to open it. Because of that its also said that the Broodkill carried the case with then as part of the loot. Where are those Broodkill now is anyone guess however several parties have already tried to find the plans for this weapon.

So far in 15 years since that legend started to circulate amount adventurers no one have succed...

In game terms the weapon is a L-20 Laser Pulse Rifle that is modified to fire sunbeams instead of simple light. The spells used are Globe of Daylight, Life Blast, Power Bolt and Energy Sphere and the result is a weapon that deals its 2D6/6D6 damage equaly to both normal creatures (MDC damage still) and the same amount of HP damage to vampires and creatures vulnerable to sunlight. The weapon however dont use normal E-clips and instead is powered by a PPE-Clip like the weapons created by Stormspire and its payload is reduced if compared to the original L-20. Stats are as follow:

Anti-Vampire Pulse Rifle
Weight: 10 lbs (4.3 kg)
Mega-Damage: 2D6 M.D. single shot, or 6D6 multiple pulse burst (three simultaneous shots). Against vampires and creatures vulnerable to sunlight it does the same amount in HP damage.
Rate of Fire: Standard
Maximum Effective Range: 1600 feet (488 m)
Payload: 30 single shots or 10 pulses for a PPE E-Clip. The weapon can be recharged by expending 30 PPE.

I never actualized the stats for the weapon using RUE TW creation rules so fell free to change whatever you guys wish.

[Steeler49er]

They'd be S.C.R.E.W.E.D.

So
Complete
Ruined
from an
Eternal
Wintery
Emo
Death

so you plunged a billion humans, d-bees and other creatures who don't have the luxury of a indoor city into nuclear winter. Wow, your worse than... all of the vampire kingdoms, ever.

How? I never in anyway condoned it (it being the dropping of rocks from orbit to whipe out Meh-he-co), I just said that "as suprsing as it is, it got the job done" and that "the CS would make good usage of it"... Both statements are correct and you and everyone else here knows that to be true. So your statement is a bit strawman-ish in nature. I'm completely opposed to this method as I VERY clearly stated in my "How I Personnally delt with vamps" seires of comments.

HOWEVER, you ARE correct in pegging me as an evil monster that is worse than Vampires This I won't deny and I Thank you fer saying it even if you said it over statements I never made (i'll take complements where I can get them)

[Steeler49er]

Spoiler:

Perhaps, then again perhaps not. Triax and the CS most likely have genetically engineered strains of various plants and animals that could survive that kind of tempurature drop(we certainly do). The CS has Lone Star after all, and has a trade agreement w/Triax so by now they've traded enhanced strains of wheat & corn as well as new strains of cattle and the like.
But any way, my overall point was this was how I dealt w/ the vampires, was it nice? No. Did it cause problems? Yes. The difference is in that particular setting we had allies who were willing to go that far to eliminate a serious threat AND had the capability to help mitigate the worst effects of their actions. They felt that fighting the vampires "traditionally" would be as bad as a land war in Asia, so this was their solution. We don't always play nice in our games.

It' seems to me that Rifts should always be played with a Higher tech level than the 1980's or 90's, like how Rat plays (and subsiquently I do), as such The NGR and CS would have No prob building underground or walled in farm lands Miles in size! Come on, they got 1000ft high arcos fer pitty sake... The NGR & CS woulda Loved it had Mexico been taken out. No more enemies hiding from them out there, no more vamps, the new cooled weather in the reigon woulda made fer better southern grown crops, the lesser advanced city-states that are enemies to the CS would have died out w/o the CS needing to expend a single resource OR those city-states would now need to come crawling to the CS fer help and end up becoming All New CS Satellite cities utterly dependent on the Coalition!

The CS would come out of this Rich, and the NGR (being 1000's of miles away) would have seen little effect from the damage in Meh-he-co and Further more would see better business & suprot from the better off CS... Makin out like Raccoons (all bandity like). keir451's solution was a boon to the US and Just made travel to the CS allies in South Am Much easier as travel by das boot is safer than by land.

The only problem is that he just increased his threat O meter rating to 10!! And painted a country sized bulls-eye on himself... Now the CS, NGR, South Am, Lazlo, Splynn, The Gods of Mexico, The Spirits of the Native American, Red Giants, And the P!SSED OFF Japs & Aussies (since you just sent a 1000ft tall wall of Tsunami watery death at their Island counties) all want you dead Dead DEAD!!! You've made your self the highest threat in the whole REDZone [Rifts Earth Dimension].....


But other than that... Good idea!
Of course, I'da gone with something a lil bit safer/nicer/and less "**** off the other guy-ee ness" in style... Like highering a buncha Earth and Water Warlocks to flood Mexico over night... (Earth Warlocks to sink earth into permanent canyons, and Water Wars to fill it in with sea water)... but that's just me.
And what I did way back 17 years ago in '93'!

Dude dont know what you are smoking but you must stop.

The main problem is that the CS and the NGR (and pretty much everyone else besides Atlantis) dont have the means to detect the sudden drop in temperature until it actually happens. The reason? Weather (dont know the proper word) Satellites... they dont have any (or any satellite of any kind).

As much they have greater technology their means to predict weather are back into the age of 1940-50, before the first satellites were launched. Also even if they could build underground farms, it would take a lot of time to actually build then and no matter how much you wish they would not be able to create mile long underground farms to replace the ones they are gonna lost thanks to a nuclear winter. Constructing a above the ground structure like the fortress cities is one thing, constructing a underground structure is a complete different task.

Lone Star could change some aspects of plants and cattle genetic structure to allow then to grown in a more colder environment but not through a winter pure and simple. Even if they could create plants and cattle that could survive a winter and still grown, it would need to be reasearch first and that takes time (sometimes a lot of time) and time is just what the CS dont have.

The main point is that while the CS and the NGR would rush to try to compensate for their loses in food production, the majority of the population would starve. The Burbs around the fortress cities will become empty by the migration of people to places that maybe could feed then, like places where magic can make a difference (poor Lazlo and New Lazlo folks they will got their worst nightmare from this).

In the end either three things will happen to the CS (the NGR as far as the books portrait is doomed) over a couple of years:

A) They sucumb to their own inability to feed its people and the government is overthrow because the majority of the elite in the upper levels would be receiving most of the food that they can produce and that, no matter how good is your speech, caused revolutions during all know history.

B)They ask for help to the other nations in NA (including the magical ones) out of desperation and humiliate thenselfs just to survive.

Or

C)The government remove the ban on magic to try save thenselves because only magic will have a chance to resolve the problem.

Either of those scenarios is the end of CS we know and what will be born from its ashes is anyone guess...

You'd be right about all this if you "Went by the Books", but as you very well know, everytime we do that KS pulls out the fact that the CS ain't stupid and has had Secret stuff in the works right under everyones nose...
You want proof you say?
Coalition War Machine!!!
One day the CS is running around in purple armor and then a day later (a few months actually) they have outfitted the entire CS with MEGA advanced super CS tech which they'd been secretly developing and Stockpiling for decades.
Food is , as Sun Tzu clearly pointed out, is the life blood of a war effort and with out it your armies will fall. That said, and based on the superior Intell and military minds of the CS, it is simple and safe to say that they'd have already built-up massive stockpiles of food and had Equally built large numbers of farm arcologies for quite some time. To do otherwise is equal to complete insanity.
Quebec (or Quebek with a 'K' as i like to spell it) is already living underground much of the time (in game and in real life) in many of their cities due to cold weather.
So how much research do you really feel the CS needs to pull all of this off... Really?
All they have ta do is pull out any one of the millions of Pre-Existing peices of Golden Age research already done for space travel that can be found in their hidden library. And considering that anyone and Everyone with any tactical war experiance would know to attack farm land and food supplies, I'd think the CS would have Already prep'ed for years for such a scenario long ago.



BUT the Biggest proof of this is "The Dark Ages!!!"...
Mankind through-out all of Rifts Earth had Proven that Many Tech nations survived the Ice Ages of the Cataclysm which They never saw comming and had No time to prep for... Those lasted in some cases for decades and Those mini-ice ages were MUCHO colder. How did they survive if the tech to make food was non-existant???

Simple question really.

FYI-Doppler Radar has been in use fer decades now of Real world time and is used to scan (in addition to satellites) for weather changes, the CS ALSO has 100's of Low Orbit secret satellites to boot (in the books) that will tell them of such weather changes... Not that the mercury won't already do that, and it would only take the CS a few short months with their level of construction tech, to build Many walled in farms........Not that they haven't already!

[keir451]

My question isn't with how ya got the orbital mass driver, but with the fallout. Mexico is connected to a solid landmass on both ends as well as being rooted fairly centrally in a continental plate. How would it sink? portions may flood, but unless you pulverized thousands of square miles of bedrock down hundreds of vertical feet until they were reduced to a sub sealevel stat, it wouldn't flood on a large scale, and that kind of bombardment would trigger tectonic response activity all over the globe. So while the bombardment way not directly mess with the CS, the subsequent eruption of the Yellowstone supervolcano may.

To answer the unasked question of the weapon, it belongs to a alternate Pre-Rifts group we call Vega Technologies Unlimited(VTU) ,their tech equals EVILL ,
who were rifted in out in California, they built (in their time) the Geo synchronous weapons station, Earth Crusher, which was rifted with them.
You're right that we need to crush a whole lot of terrain to below sea level to flood/sink Mexico (multiple 500 ton rounds the size of minivans moving at .99 of light speed would do it), yes Yellowstone might re-erupt, or it might not as the damage is fairly localized and Yellowstone may have moved off it's magma pocket in the intervening centuries (my GM didn't use Yellowstone as a Super volcano anyway) and by the time we got around to dealing w/ the vampires we had already defeated the CS (yes this took a looong time to accomplish and was not easy) plus we had the intervention of Warlocks and elementals to redirect some of the earth tremors and tsunamis and a near deific being to handle the magical backlash.
Basically we had the time to figure out our worst case scenario's and put in countermeasures, and cheated a whole lot.
Please note that this is a very different style of Rifts game that my GM and I run and we do not play nice with a lot of things, as a matter of fact we get very evil about somethings, but we still have alot of fun.

[Nightmaster]

You'd be right about all this if you "Went by the Books", but as you very well know, everytime we do that KS pulls out the fact that the CS ain't stupid and has had Secret stuff in the works right under everyones nose...
You want proof you say?
Coalition War Machine!!!
One day the CS is running around in purple armor and then a day later (a few months actually) they have outfitted the entire CS with MEGA advanced super CS tech which they'd been secretly developing and Stockpiling for decades.
Food is , as Sun Tzu clearly pointed out, is the life blood of a war effort and with out it your armies will fall. That said, and based on the superior Intell and military minds of the CS, it is simple and safe to say that they'd have already built-up massive stockpiles of food and had Equally built large numbers of farm arcologies for quite some time. To do otherwise is equal to complete insanity.
Quebec (or Quebek with a 'K' as i like to spell it) is already living underground much of the time (in game and in real life) in many of their cities due to cold weather.
So how much research do you really feel the CS needs to pull all of this off... Really?
All they have ta do is pull out any one of the millions of Pre-Existing peices of Golden Age research already done for space travel that can be found in their hidden library. And considering that anyone and Everyone with any tactical war experiance would know to attack farm land and food supplies, I'd think the CS would have Already prep'ed for years for such a scenario long ago.



BUT the Biggest proof of this is "The Dark Ages!!!"...
Mankind through-out all of Rifts Earth had Proven that Many Tech nations survived the Ice Ages of the Cataclysm which They never saw comming and had No time to prep for... Those lasted in some cases for decades and Those mini-ice ages were MUCHO colder. How did they survive if the tech to make food was non-existant???

Simple question really.

FYI-Doppler Radar has been in use fer decades now of Real world time and is used to scan (in addition to satellites) for weather changes, the CS ALSO has 100's of Low Orbit secret satellites to boot (in the books) that will tell them of such weather changes... Not that the mercury won't already do that, and it would only take the CS a few short months with their level of construction tech, to build Many walled in farms........Not that they haven't already!

Interessing that the CS is so briliant and at the same time so stupid... but yes I am going by the book and by the books the CS dont have satellites at all (can you post a book and page to the afirmation that the CS have low orbit satellites?).

Also by the books the only real tech nation to survive the Dark Ages (in the outside world that is) is the NGR but also by the books its clearly stated that Germany was somehow spared the carnage and destruction that affected the entire world. Of course they did suffer, but less than the rest so I can assume the same luck they had with Rifts activity and demonic assault played a hand in weather events and the like as well.

As for how Mankind survived the Dark Ages and the ice age that lasted for decades KS have already stated in some books how Mankind did manage to survive before rediscolvering of technology and MDC tech: Magic.

The same magic that can kill a demon or monster is capable to create food or the conditions that one need to grown crops or raise cattle. Also you forget that by the time the cataclysm happened the survivors resorted to scavenging to actually survive as well. There was a lot of food in cans and the like buried or forgotten in the cities to be picked.

Stockpiles of food for the military is sound and ok but the actual military of the CS is (at the peak of the CWC book) 1 million strong. Stockpiles of food to last, lets say 3 years, are ok and physically possible to stock in the cities but the entire CS population is around 14 million people. The food stored wont last more than a few months if they have to resort to then. And farm arcologies would be a nightmare to maintain and so easily targeted that Tolkeen would not need that Legend Spell: Blight of Ages to destroy the CS capacity to produce food. Also there is no mention of such structures in the CWC book and there is a description of CS Missouri in this book, and no description of such things in the Rifts Core book (again there is a description of CS Missouri) and there it clearly states that the state is primary farmlands.

And you are overestimating the contents of the Chi-Town library. Of course it had lots of knowledge that the CS used to rose to power but it didnt had everything. In fact if not (by the new SB1) by the republicans that inserted some datafiles and books in the library, the CS would have a overall tech level on par with Northern Gun if not less. They most probably dont have that ace in the sleeve to save their sorry butts.

[Steeler49er]

GAK...
You hit all of my points with that last post of yours in a very nicely worded line of order.
As I had recalled, the Tech cities that weathered the storm that I was refering to were that Moscovik Russky place (80 year cold snap), the Chines, and the Aussy tech cities... But then again I only JUST got back into the books as of lastnight, I've been out of the Rifts scene fer 5+ long years now and Only started it back up 24 hours ago, so it is safe to say that I'm worse than rusty on who suvived.

I'm just arguing on the points of logistics, such as the library. You say that the library doesn't have everything of knowledge, but the tech level needed to survive a 5 year nuclear winter (a sudden one in this case) is such a low level of tech and requires such a low level of understanding that, it is safe to say that if a Non-military based library has ultra important tech info, than such commonly discussed tech as farming ing hostial envirnoments would have more likely than not, been far greater in quantity in the library. It is a very common thing to have been written in books about.

And considering that mankind has gone through such cold snaps (which came on even faster than one created by smacking Mexico as per the above examples) it just stands to reason that the CS would have covered this base, since most governments in todays reallity already plan for such events and, they don't live in the Ultra Hostial world of Rifts where such unnatural events are almost common place.

So yes, you are correct that the books have never brought up in any detail the possabilities involved in such events, but the CS would have to be very lacking in common tactical sence to not have contingentcy plans in place for such events.
It's more a matter of "An Argument of Logic Vs. What the books & PB have divulged as of Yet" and in that you have the legal high ground, while I'm going for the logic angle.
We have two legit POV's on this sugect it would seem.
For example, you ask which book has the CS satellites and I went and found it under "THE COALITION EDGE" By Matt Olfson... Which is a 22 page info guide into the CS intelligence gathering powers and hidden tech levels, which the CS used to win the war in tolkeen, but as it turns out that it can only be found in Rifter 42#, which automatically is classed as "Optional Material" and is thus not cannon.


So you win against me again in the technical cannon and, although my point is very resonable and logical and makes all the sence in the world, I still end up wrong and you are right. I have only logic to stand on, Which pretty as it is, as we Americans know doesn't mean anything in our countries politics or in a discussion on message board forums based on a science-fiction rpg
My hat is off to you Nightmaster.

[Shark_Force]

mutants in orbit, which is basically the official rifts earth space book, says that anything going too near orbit gets shot repeatedly by killsats of many different kinds.

i am inclined to treat the optional information stating the CS has satellites to be incorrect.

[Nightmaster]

GAK...
You hit all of my points with that last post of yours in a very nicely worded line of order.
As I had recalled, the Tech cities that weathered the storm that I was refering to were that Moscovik Russky place (80 year cold snap), the Chines, and the Aussy tech cities... But then again I only JUST got back into the books as of lastnight, I've been out of the Rifts scene fer 5+ long years now and Only started it back up 24 hours ago, so it is safe to say that I'm worse than rusty on who suvived.

I'm just arguing on the points of logistics, such as the library. You say that the library doesn't have everything of knowledge, but the tech level needed to survive a 5 year nuclear winter (a sudden one in this case) is such a low level of tech and requires such a low level of understanding that, it is safe to say that if a Non-military based library has ultra important tech info, than such commonly discussed tech as farming ing hostial envirnoments would have more likely than not, been far greater in quantity in the library. It is a very common thing to have been written in books about.

And considering that mankind has gone through such cold snaps (which came on even faster than one created by smacking Mexico as per the above examples) it just stands to reason that the CS would have covered this base, since most governments in todays reallity already plan for such events and, they don't live in the Ultra Hostial world of Rifts where such unnatural events are almost common place.

So yes, you are correct that the books have never brought up in any detail the possabilities involved in such events, but the CS would have to be very lacking in common tactical sence to not have contingentcy plans in place for such events.
It's more a matter of "An Argument of Logic Vs. What the books & PB have divulged as of Yet" and in that you have the legal high ground, while I'm going for the logic angle.
We have two legit POV's on this sugect it would seem.
For example, you ask which book has the CS satellites and I went and found it under "THE COALITION EDGE" By Matt Olfson... Which is a 22 page info guide into the CS intelligence gathering powers and hidden tech levels, which the CS used to win the war in tolkeen, but as it turns out that it can only be found in Rifter 42#, which automatically is classed as "Optional Material" and is thus not cannon.


So you win against me again in the technical cannon and, although my point is very resonable and logical and makes all the sence in the world, I still end up wrong and you are right. I have only logic to stand on, Which pretty as it is, as we Americans know doesn't mean anything in our countries politics or in a discussion on message board forums based on a science-fiction rpg
My hat is off to you Nightmaster.

Its not a matter of me be right and you wrong, or I be citing canon and you logic. Its a mix of the two.

I have always tried to make logic of the canon references in all the books and one of the things you need to pay attention is the details. Most people dont care about details and that is not a deliberated attitude on their parts. It simple happens.

You point about the CS having the knowledge to counter a nuclear winter like event is not bad but to actually counter such event they would need to be prepared for it first. Now comes the real problem of your point: The CS government being smart to plan ahead to such situation.

All the books portrait the CS government as being careful and intelligent but at the same time in all the major situations were the CS government had to show that intelligence they managed to do the complete oposite. I could sit here citing all the dumb decisions the CS have made through all the books but that is not the point.

The point is that while the library in Chi-Town does had a lot of info and tech that is no guarantee that information about the effects of a nuclear winter were presented. Of course one could argue that this is basic information but you must see that the library was a cache of books and disks that the founders of Chi-Town discolvered in the last years of the Dark Ages. Most probably that library was one of a school or small colege and the ultra tech files that the CS used to catapult their technologic level were added later by agents of the Republicans.

Also even if the CS really had the knowledge, implementing it would have to be someting already on the move, with the basic infrastructure completed already. Also structures for the grown of crops protected from the elements lack something that traditional agriculture have: Production output.

Simple put a hidroponic farm produces a lot less than a non-hidroponic one because most probably the tradicional farm cover a lot more area than the greenhouse that have the hidroponic farm. Also you would need to have a entire infrastructure ready so that your plan to counter a sudden drop in world temperature could work. If not by the time you begin to implement your emergency plan you would have to wait until everything is ready to start production of crops and that alone would take a real good time to be done. Lets not even talk about raising cattle indoors because things like that are a lot more complicated than simple crops.

Also there is the strategic weakness of such instalations. They cannot be made to resist assaults of attackers using modern weapons or they become to expensive to construct and maintain and would take a lot more time to be ready. Such places can be easily target and destroied. Of course the CS would guard such places but that is no guarantee and a single group of enemies that manage to bypass the guards could wreak havoc on the farms.

After all its a lot more easy to target a building and set it aflame/destroy than set aflame/destroy miles of farmland.

Because of that is that I think that the CS dindt have this type of plan prepared. It would take so much time and resources to construct such an infrastructure to produce crops protected from the elements (remember we are talking about feeding 14 million people) that they would not have the resources to do what they did in the books regarding its upgrade of equipment and the like.

[Steeler49er]

All the books portrait the CS government as being careful and intelligent but at the same time in all the major situations were the CS government had to show that intelligence they managed to do the complete oposite. I could sit here citing all the dumb decisions the CS have made through all the books but that is not the point.

It So true...
It's So Very dang true

[keir451]

on the subject of hydroponics:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroponics. If this holds true then the CS would be able to feed all of their cities this way. Thus supplementing traditional crops.

Anybody got better ideas on taking care of Mexico's vampire problem? Vampire Rid-X anyone?
Rat_Bastard please HELP!!!!

[Nightmaster]

on the subject of hydroponics:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroponics. If this holds true then the CS would be able to feed all of their cities this way. Thus supplementing traditional crops.

Interessing. My afirmation on hydroponic farms was based on my own research back from my school days (15+ years ago) here in brazil, and at that time hidroponic farms were not that much efficient. Also the crops produced are a lot more expensive in the market as far I am concerned (I make the buys in the local market and hydroponic veggies cost double than the normals ones), however I stand corrected on the production output of hydroponic farms.

Anybody got better ideas on taking care of Mexico's vampire problem? Vampire Rid-X anyone?
Rat_Bastard please HELP!!!!

Have you read my other post?

[Shadow Wyrm]

Simple put a hidroponic farm produces a lot less than a non-hidroponic one because most probably the tradicional farm cover a lot more area than the greenhouse that have the hidroponic farm. Also you would need to have a entire infrastructure ready so that your plan to counter a sudden drop in world temperature could work. If not by the time you begin to implement your emergency plan you would have to wait until everything is ready to start production of crops and that alone would take a real good time to be done. Lets not even talk about raising cattle indoors because things like that are a lot more complicated than simple crops.

Also there is the strategic weakness of such instalations. They cannot be made to resist assaults of attackers using modern weapons or they become to expensive to construct and maintain and would take a lot more time to be ready. Such places can be easily target and destroied. Of course the CS would guard such places but that is no guarantee and a single group of enemies that manage to bypass the guards could wreak havoc on the farms.

I agree that it would take alot of effort to put together a hidroponic ag. system. The remnants of the Chicogo area and NEMA could put it together over time, so don't dismiss the human will to survive.

With the erruption of the Yellowstone super volcano North America would be in a nuclear winter situation. Supplies would be gotten from one of the military storehouses that are set up for just such an event, which we do have today IRL.

[keir451]

on the subject of hydroponics:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroponics. If this holds true then the CS would be able to feed all of their cities this way. Thus supplementing traditional crops.

Interessing. My afirmation on hydroponic farms was based on my own research back from my school days (15+ years ago) here in brazil, and at that time hidroponic farms were not that much efficient. Also the crops produced are a lot more expensive in the market as far I am concerned (I make the buys in the local market and hydroponic veggies cost double than the normals ones), however I stand corrected on the production output of hydroponic farms.

Anybody got better ideas on taking care of Mexico's vampire problem? Vampire Rid-X anyone?
Rat_Bastard please HELP!!!!

Have you read my other post?

Yes, I did. The concept was OK it just didn't work for me. I tend to lean a little more towards tech solutions, as I feel magic inRifts sucks wind, it's NOT the great equalizer that Kevin says it is, and while TW could be fun just for Rping, it's too expensive and unreliable to attempt to mass produce compared to a regular laser rifle or a nuke (both of which are based on solid, repeatable concepts). That and any ground force (outside of Atlantis) that tries to "clean house" in Mexico is looking at a major butt waxing (IMO). O' course alot of that depends on how you approach the situation (rat_bastard for one example, you and I for others).

[Nightmaster]

Yes, I did. The concept was OK it just didn't work for me. I tend to lean a little more towards tech solutions, as I feel magic in Rifts sucks wind, it's NOT the great equalizer that Kevin says it is, and while TW could be fun just for Rping, it's too expensive and unreliable to attempt to mass produce compared to a regular laser rifle or a nuke (both of which are based on solid, repeatable concepts). That and any ground force (outside of Atlantis) that tries to "clean house" in Mexico is looking at a major butt waxing (IMO). O' course alot of that depends on how you approach the situation (rat_bastard for one example, you and I for others).

I underlined the word I feel was the most interessing.

For you Magic and TW is unreliable. Well I wonder why.

Magic is unreliable if you only think of it as a thing that only a few can wield, but the moment you see what magic can do that "unreliable" caracteristic disapear completely. Several times in the books there are examples of magic be capable of things that technology alone cannot (perhaps will never) do. Some of those feats are capable of holding vampires at bay or even destroy then (Globe of Daylight and LifeBlast).

As for TW creations you have two situations.

The first are devices that only Men of Magic or Psichics can use because they need direct activation using PPE/ISP. I call these First Generation TW devices. Those really are unreliable since very few soldiers can actually use then.

The second are devices that use their own type of PPE storage to power its functions and thus can be used even by normal soldiers, like the stormspire weapons that uses a PPE-Clip to be powered. These I call Second Generation TW devices. Those can be easily issued to every soldier in a army and if of the right type they can allow a army like the CS to really fight the vampires.

As for cost I have not made the calculation using the new rules for TW creation presented on RUE but the cost of the gems for all the spells are as follow:

Globe of Daylight
Gem: Quartz (clear)
Cost per carat: 60 credits

Life Blast
Gem: Jade
Cost per carat: 1000 credits

Powerbolt
Gem: Turquoise
Cost per carat: 240 credits

Energy Sphere
Gem: Quartz (ruby)
Cost per carat: 300 credits

As I have said, I really didnt made the device using RUE rules since I have idealized it years ago, long before RUE was released, so I never bothered with it. If you wish you can say that the weapon is a lv 5 device (ok technically it can be a lv 1 device but I dont really think this is a thing a rookie could have created).

The real catch is that this is a NEW technolgy (for TW that is) that can be applied to other laser type weapons and thus allow easy victory against vampires since they dont bother to use armor (the majority that is) and thus will be defenseless against weapons that bring the power of the sun to the night. Even their daylight protectors will be affected by those weapons as well since the MDC properties of the laser beam are maintained, thus allowing the weapon to be used against normal targets.

[rat_bastard]

I don't like the TW approach because its ultimately expensive and limited in who can use it. Bullets are often more effective and can be used by anyone who can pull a trigger.

[Shark_Force]

I don't like the TW approach because its ultimately expensive and limited in who can use it. Bullets are often more effective and can be used by anyone who can pull a trigger.

it may or may not be expensive, and it may or may not be limited in who can use it. i dare say mack's famous resurrection machine is substantially cheaper than any other method of resurrection you will find (in fact, healing TW devices are in general quite cheap because red-orange agate is so cheap, and most of the healing magic uses those stones).

other extremely cheap gems include fire agates (assorted divinations), ivory (necromancy), clear quartz (light), rose quartz (undoing curses), smoky quartz (some smoke and fire), and black tourmaline (dealing with interdimensional non-transportation magics?)

additional cheap (but not supercheap) gems include amber (i'd say the theme is wood, but it's somewhat disparate), amethyst (immobilisation mostly), andradite (curses), crysophase (summoning), non-black garnet (cold and sound), jade (life?), black opal (brainhacks; ie spells that mess with your head), fire opal (defense, especially vs the supernatural), other opals (no particular theme, but some decent spells), onyx (transportation/rifts), ruby quartz (energy/force?) topaz (i'm going to tentatively say poison), turquoise (hmmm... deception and attack... backstabbing?) and yellow/brown/gold zircon (illusions).

then, there's a third tier before we get to the really expensive stuff, alexandrite (animals, transformation), aquamarine (water), citrine (spirits/summoning), black garnet (creating stuff, especially magic stuff), lapis-lazuli (anti-magic, teleportation), malachite (magic items and assorted others), black pearls (enhancement), white pearls (temporary magical constructs? hard to see a theme here), tiger eye (mental attacks, sight), clear zircon (air), blue zircon (weather) and red zircon (lighting/energy).

it's only when you get to the really crazy stuff: diamonds (force, PPE storage), emerald (ley lines, invisibility, PPE storage), red ruby (direct damage fire), blue ruby (mind control), black sapphire (darkness), star sapphire (control/enslave?), and other sapphires (no strong theme imo).

that's not getting into additional magic types, many of which have options for gems that are not in the highest tier of expensive gems... and some of them even from the lowest tier of gems.

so, TW devices *can* be expensive, for certain types, but can also be quite cheap for other types.

[psam_rage]

Funny my anti-vampire Idea involves a couple hundred TW Generators, the ones that run about 10 years straight, and some TW Storm Generators... Nuff said?

[keir451]

I, personally, find TW to be unreliable because of all the (to me) excessive materials that go into it. Tho' I will say magic does have its advantages and uses (healing & the like) and when really applied to boost tech, TW can be formidable, but, when the chips are down and your mage is out of spells & PPE or you're in a magical dead zone/dimension where even the charge of that TW weapon is drained, that CP-50 "Dragonfire" rifle( or nearest equivalent) WILL still work and can, compared to a TW device, be more easily recharged or fixed if damaged. I can and on occasion do play a TW mage and have alot of fun, but I have MORE fun playing a standard Special Forces Soldier w/ all mechanical and electrical skills.
TW storm generator IS nasty indeed, I've used it to good effect too at times.

[rat_bastard]

The idea of TW devices made through the use of incredibly cheap gems is the work of incredibly permissive GMs, Techno wizardry is expensive, if not for the materials then for the extremely specialized skill set required to manufacture techno wizardry. If one of my players came to me with Mack's resurrection machine I'd laugh him out of the game.

Even when you have enough techno wizardry you need people who can operate the techno wizardry, that requires either troops with special powers, special techno wizard technology or troops with supernatural training (wizards).

all of those things cost more.

a AK-47 costs 900 credits, 100 silver rounds costs 90 credits, a flashlight costs 12 credits, all of these things can be used by ignorant peasants to deadly effect.

A TW water rifle costs 40,000 credits and requires a specialized operator and deals less damage over a shorter range.

I'm not saying that TW is useless, its simply not that cost effective. My troops wear amulets (Charm and protection against the supernatural) and psychic troops are issued globe of daylight flares. Also when we where leaving a town we raided we cast summon and control rain over the towns we hit to further the destruction and confusion we wreaked on waking vampires. However Techno wizardry is not something we give to standard troops because its expensive and often less effective than its technological counterpart.

[rat_bastard]

My ideas revolve around the use of magic to enhance technology, not TW more like T & W.

1. Take a three galaxies gravity based rail gun (uses gravity not magnetics) and use wooden projectiles that have had the Iron wood spell cast on them, You can convert a heck of alot of pellets per spell. This will now do megadamage and still effect wood vulnerabilities. The idea can be enhanced with TW if you wanted to combine a create wood and iron wood spell effect into the weapon magazine then it could be charged with PPE clips.

Yes this requires being able to travel to the three galaxies, but that is not very hard. With a bit more work the iron wood can be used in shrapnel rounds with out the need for new tech.

2. The other idea involved a Spacial mage and some big rocks but I'm not mentioning THAT on this thread.

Also: as far as demensions where magic does not work, there are more demensions where your technology will not work than where magic will not work. No I have not counted them, ok more an opinion than a fact then. I do keep a sword on hand just in case, never seen a place that it would not work . . . yet.

The problem with this approach is that it relies on incredibly exotic components to work, my players have access to most of the Naruni catalog but they do not even know GR rail guns exist.

There is an urban legend that at one point NASA spent millions of dollars developing a pen that could write in zero gravity while the Russian space program just issued their cosmonauts pencils. You seem fascinated with taking the NASA approach to problems when simple practicality in the face of problems.

[Shark_Force]

you can make TW devices that do not require any special powers to operate whatsoever. they are a bit more expensive, but it can be done.

and sure, i wouldn't recommend the TW sun lasers above; frankly, a flashlight with a roll of masking tape attached to the bottom of a standard laser pistol is probably good enough. on the other hand, a TW magic net gun is not particularly easy to duplicate with tech, nor are a number of other TW devices... this is largely because in rifts, magic tends to be a lot less awesome as a direct offensive tool. if you want the most destructive power with the best range and best chance to hit, you don't invest in TW devices, you invest in missiles (TW annihilation cannon notwithstanding) since ultimately techno-wizardry damaging devices tend to be about on par with regular tech gear (with the exception of melee TW weapons, but that's another story).

so sure, if you're talking about equipping your army with guns, and even to some extent with armor and vehicles, tech is probably the way to go. however, techno-wizardry gear for certain purposes is definitely also a viable concept. it just isn't likely to replace laser pulse rifles that deal >1d6x10 damage anytime soon (heck, even the C-12 can burst for 8d6).

so, for example, were i to develop a TW weapon to market to your army/mercenary company for fighting vampires, you're right in a way... i probably wouldn't want to try to sell you a TW laser. but what if i devised a techno-wizardry device to prevent the vampires from changing shape, including preventing them from turning to mist? such a device would probably not be as expensive as you might think, and i don't mean that in a "i'm going to use 500 carats of really cheap gemstones" way either (i do agree, the 75 carat thing is a bit silly... however, even without that, the resurrection machine probably doesn't cost much more than 100-200k credits, which is pretty danged cheap for unlimited use resurrection)

[rat_bastard]

Here's the the other problem with the TW weapon business model
Reloading: How do you reload an assault rifle? You slap in another clip.

How do you reload a TW device?

Lets say that Lazlo or Stormspire or the Colorado baronies decides that its worth forgoing profit to equip your army with tw anti vampire rifles that normal troops can use. How do you reload it? you turn your rifle over to a psychic or a magic user and he stuffs it full of power from the aether and you go back to fighting.

does anyone else see a problem with that?

You could say TW E-clips, but lets face it they cost 40,000 credits, recharging them costs 6,000-12,000 credits. Paying 40 times the price of a assault rifle and 100 rounds for a single clip seems stupid to me.

but lets say you get your clips for free because K'zaa has taken leave of all of his senses and decided he no longer loves money. That means the few people who can cast spells and use useful psychic powers are busy recharging weapons and your ability to fight is limited severely by your ability to recharge your gear.

Then their is the problem that each one of your troops carrying a TW squirt gun and some e-clips is probably carrying a quarter million credits of gear. Sounds like a great target for bandits to me.

[Nightmaster]

and sure, i wouldn't recommend the TW sun lasers above; frankly, a flashlight with a roll of masking tape attached to the bottom of a standard laser pistol is probably good enough.

Really... no offense but can you explain tht reasoning?

[rat_bastard]

and sure, i wouldn't recommend the TW sun lasers above; frankly, a flashlight with a roll of masking tape attached to the bottom of a standard laser pistol is probably good enough.

Really... no offense but can you explain tht reasoning?

Simple price to payload to damage. A Flashlight works for days and can be incidental to other damage whereas a tw laser has 10-30 shots and iis vastly more expensive.

[Nightmaster]

You could say TW E-clips, but lets face it they cost 40,000 credits, recharging them costs 6,000-12,000 credits. Paying 40 times the price of a assault rifle and 100 rounds for a single clip seems stupid to me.

The part about a PPE-Clip costing 40 times the price of a assault rifle and 100 round for a single clip is untrue. Unless you are talking about SDC weapons which in this case dont really count against vampire unless you use wood or silver bullets (and those can make the price go way high in the end for each bullet) and principally against their minions and protectors.

Most rifles in the books cost between 18.000 and 45.000 credits. The L-20 Laser Pulse Rifle, that is presented since the Original Rifts Core Rule book, cost alone 25.000 credits. Yes the PPE-Clips are expensive but well worth the money invested. A single soldier wielding a TW weapon that can harm both vampires and non-vampires in the same proportion and carring lets say 5 extra PPE-Clips can be a formidable foe indeed.

but lets say you get your clips for free because K'zaa has taken leave of all of his senses and decided he no longer loves money. That means the few people who can cast spells and use useful psychic powers are busy recharging weapons and your ability to fight is limited severely by your ability to recharge your gear.

Unless you play smart and dont go "Napoleon" with the vampires (going on a very long without supply campaign without rest or stop).

If you keep a supply line and dont try to do all the job of liberation of Mexico in one go then the problems of the cost of the PPE-Clips are minimized a lot. Also if every soldier carries a secondary weapon (like most do in real life) they can still protect thenselves.

[rat_bastard]

You could say TW E-clips, but lets face it they cost 40,000 credits, recharging them costs 6,000-12,000 credits. Paying 40 times the price of a assault rifle and 100 rounds for a single clip seems stupid to me.

The part about a PPE-Clip costing 40 times the price of a assault rifle and 100 round for a single clip is untrue. Unless you are talking about SDC weapons which in this case dont really count against vampire unless you use wood or silver bullets (and those can make the price go way high in the end for each bullet) and principally against their minions and protectors.

Most rifles in the books cost between 18.000 and 45.000 credits. The L-20 Laser Pulse Rifle, that is presented since the Original Rifts Core Rule book, cost alone 25.000 credits. Yes the PPE-Clips are expensive but well worth the money invested. A single soldier wielding a TW weapon that can harm both vampires and non-vampires in the same proportion and carring lets say 5 extra PPE-Clips can be a formidable foe indeed.

I was going for the price of a AK-47 and a box of 100 silver bullets which is a much more effective weapon against vampires than a sun laser.

but lets say you get your clips for free because K'zaa has taken leave of all of his senses and decided he no longer loves money. That means the few people who can cast spells and use useful psychic powers are busy recharging weapons and your ability to fight is limited severely by your ability to recharge your gear.

Unless you play smart and dont go "Napoleon" with the vampires (going on a very long without supply campaign without rest or stop).

Assuming everything goes to plan and you can recharge on your time.

If you keep a supply line and dont try to do all the job of liberation of Mexico in one go then the problems of the cost of the PPE-Clips are minimized a lot. Also if every soldier carries a secondary weapon (like most do in real life) they can still protect thenselves.

This does not in anyway change the fact that that it is better to carry a simple assault rifle with silver rounds than a TW anti-vampire weapon. Your point about troops carrying a backup weapon kinda nullifies your point about carrying a weapon that deals both mega damage and sdc damage but for arguments sake you could use a golden age weapon-smiths GAW-21 assault rifle which is a assault rifle with a under-barrel laser for 14,000 credits, still vastly cheaper than your techno wizard solution.

[keir451]

Why are you (generally speaking) trying to "liberate Mexico" in the first place? Destroy the Vampires? Totally understand. Free thousands of people who've been kept as literal fodder for said vampires for so long they don't know nor care what's going on around them and would need to be constantly sheltered and taken care of for the rest of their natural lives and don't produce anything of value or worth? Waste of manpower, esp. in a world were the people who DO produce things of value and worth need your protection more. Just my opinion regarding Mexico in Rifts.
From a strict practical point of veiw (not a GAME point of veiw) making a TW weapon that according to the original rules could only be used by a select few is folly.
BUT from a Role playing game standpoint, the fun to had in creating a new and unique item by combining magic and technology and going all munchkiny on the vamps can't be outweighed.

[rat_bastard]

Why are you (generally speaking) trying to "liberate Mexico" in the first place? Destroy the Vampires? Totally understand. Free thousands of people who've been kept as literal fodder for said vampires for so long they don't know nor care what's going on around them and would need to be constantly sheltered and taken care of for the rest of their natural lives and don't produce anything of value or worth? Waste of manpower, esp. in a world were the people who DO produce things of value and worth need your protection more. Just my opinion regarding Mexico in Rifts.
From a strict practical point of veiw (not a GAME point of veiw) making a TW weapon that according to the original rules could only be used by a select few is folly.
BUT from a Role playing game standpoint, the fun to had in creating a new and unique item by combining magic and technology and going all munchkiny on the vamps can't be outweighed.

In our case it came down to three simple bullet points:

1: The vampires have valuables we felt we could make better use of.

2: We needed farmers and warm bodies to grow food and do drudge work as well as populate the city we were building.

3: The vampires represented a threat we could deal with at a low cost while giving our soldiers much needed experience and increasing our reputation in north america.

[Shark_Force]

and sure, i wouldn't recommend the TW sun lasers above; frankly, a flashlight with a roll of masking tape attached to the bottom of a standard laser pistol is probably good enough.

Really... no offense but can you explain tht reasoning?

Simple price to payload to damage. A Flashlight works for days and can be incidental to other damage whereas a tw laser has 10-30 shots and iis vastly more expensive.

actually, i'm talking about the "put tape across the front of a flashlight in the shape of a cross and you've got a shadow of a cross gun" aspect. 1 flashlight + 1 roll of tape = anti-vampire weaponry.

also, incidentally, you can quite reasonably make a much more damaging rifle than the one presented above... and i still think the device to prevent the vampires from turning to mist and escaping is a good investment =P

[keir451]

Why are you (generally speaking) trying to "liberate Mexico" in the first place? Destroy the Vampires? Totally understand. Free thousands of people who've been kept as literal fodder for said vampires for so long they don't know nor care what's going on around them and would need to be constantly sheltered and taken care of for the rest of their natural lives and don't produce anything of value or worth? Waste of manpower, esp. in a world were the people who DO produce things of value and worth need your protection more. Just my opinion regarding Mexico in Rifts.
From a strict practical point of veiw (not a GAME point of veiw) making a TW weapon that according to the original rules could only be used by a select few is folly.
BUT from a Role playing game standpoint, the fun to had in creating a new and unique item by combining magic and technology and going all munchkiny on the vamps can't be outweighed.

In our case it came down to three simple bullet points:

1: The vampires have valuables we felt we could make better use of.

2: We needed farmers and warm bodies to grow food and do drudge work as well as populate the city we were building.

3: The vampires represented a threat we could deal with at a low cost while giving our soldiers much needed experience and increasing our reputation in north america.

OK, I see yer points, I could drag on arguing against it, but I won't, 'cause as a merc I unit I can get behind the "valuables" line and 'cause arguing is pointless.

[psam_rage]

Bah... PPE clips are crud. I use only direct energy feed, good for a mage that focuses on using TW Items rather than casting spells themselves, not clips... It may take a while but it does pay off eventually. So I would rather use them over normal guns (Unless I have that one ZPE spell that recharges E-Clips )

when the chips are down and your mage is out of spells & PPE or you're in a magical dead zone/dimension where even the charge of that TW weapon is drained, that CP-50 "Dragonfire" rifle( or nearest equivalent) WILL still work and can, compared to a TW device, be more easily recharged or fixed if damaged.

A certain spell that Disrupts electricity comes to mind.

The idea of TW devices made through the use of incredibly cheap gems is the work of incredibly permissive GMs, Techno wizardry is expensive, if not for the materials then for the extremely specialized skill set required to manufacture techno wizardry. If one of my players came to me with Mack's resurrection machine I'd laugh him out of the game.

My take is that the cheap Gem trick gets incredibly more dangerous, for the operator, as it gets cheezier.... all though Mack's Reserection machine is the prompt for my Cyberknight and Longbowsman's first mission... what they don't realize is that the machine is a cover for an evil artifact that heals people, while stealing a portion of their PPE in the process.

[rat_bastard]

Bah... PPE clips are crud. I use only direct energy feed, good for a mage that focuses on using TW Items rather than casting spells themselves, not clips... It may take a while but it does pay off eventually. So I would rather use them over normal guns (Unless I have that one ZPE spell that recharges E-Clips )

when the chips are down and your mage is out of spells & PPE or you're in a magical dead zone/dimension where even the charge of that TW weapon is drained, that CP-50 "Dragonfire" rifle( or nearest equivalent) WILL still work and can, compared to a TW device, be more easily recharged or fixed if damaged.

A certain spell that Disrupts electricity comes to mind.

A spell that is largely ineffective on military grade gear.

The idea of TW devices made through the use of incredibly cheap gems is the work of incredibly permissive GMs, Techno wizardry is expensive, if not for the materials then for the extremely specialized skill set required to manufacture techno wizardry. If one of my players came to me with Mack's resurrection machine I'd laugh him out of the game.

My take is that the cheap Gem trick gets incredibly more dangerous, for the operator, as it gets cheezier.... all though Mack's Reserection machine is the prompt for my Cyberknight and Longbowsman's first mission... what they don't realize is that the machine is a cover for an evil artifact that heals people, while stealing a portion of their PPE in the process.

Wait, a device that heals at the cost of some ppe? Whats the evil part?

[psam_rage]

A spell that is largely ineffective on military grade gear.

Not the one I am thinking of. (The Space mages Anti-Electrical field is so powerful that it works on military grade electronics and People's nervous systems..)

Wait, a device that heals at the cost of some ppe? Whats the evil part?

The fact that it is A: Intelligent, B: A Permanent drain from the targets PPE, and C: the Healing last a week before they become ill and either 1: Die, 2: Get healed again (Repeat B&C till PPE = 0), or 3 Remove the hidden curse.

[rat_bastard]

and sure, i wouldn't recommend the TW sun lasers above; frankly, a flashlight with a roll of masking tape attached to the bottom of a standard laser pistol is probably good enough.

Really... no offense but can you explain tht reasoning?

Simple price to payload to damage. A Flashlight works for days and can be incidental to other damage whereas a tw laser has 10-30 shots and iis vastly more expensive.

actually, i'm talking about the "put tape across the front of a flashlight in the shape of a cross and you've got a shadow of a cross gun" aspect. 1 flashlight + 1 roll of tape = anti-vampire weaponry.

also, incidentally, you can quite reasonably make a much more damaging rifle than the one presented above... and i still think the device to prevent the vampires from turning to mist and escaping is a good investment =P

Here is the thing, your average wild vampire averages like 50 hit points, a secondary averages 70 A decent assault rifle loaded with stock sliver bullets deals 2d6x10 hit points damage (average 70 hit points) to a vampire with a simple three round burst. The vampire heals an average of 7 hit points a round and an vampire in negative hit points cannot turn into a mist.

So if we win initiative the vamp is pretty screwed as doctrine is to lay down fire until the vamp is a bullet ridden corpse, then a brave soldier stakes it while being covered by other soldiers.

but even if the vamps turn into a mist their options are limited, they cannot day-walk and we only attack during the day. when we attack a cave we spray it with garlic and holy water and expose the entire cave/bunker/sewer system to daylight using labor bots. A misted vamp only delays the inevitable.

[dark brandon]

and sure, i wouldn't recommend the TW sun lasers above; frankly, a flashlight with a roll of masking tape attached to the bottom of a standard laser pistol is probably good enough.

Really... no offense but can you explain tht reasoning?

Simple price to payload to damage. A Flashlight works for days and can be incidental to other damage whereas a tw laser has 10-30 shots and iis vastly more expensive.

actually, i'm talking about the "put tape across the front of a flashlight in the shape of a cross and you've got a shadow of a cross gun" aspect. 1 flashlight + 1 roll of tape = anti-vampire weaponry.

also, incidentally, you can quite reasonably make a much more damaging rifle than the one presented above... and i still think the device to prevent the vampires from turning to mist and escaping is a good investment =P

Here is the thing, your average wild vampire averages like 50 hit points, a secondary averages 70 A decent assault rifle loaded with stock sliver bullets deals 2d6x10 hit points damage (average 70 hit points) to a vampire with a simple three round burst. The vampire heals an average of 7 hit points a round and an vampire in negative hit points cannot turn into a mist.

So if we win initiative the vamp is pretty screwed as doctrine is to lay down fire until the vamp is a bullet ridden corpse, then a brave soldier stakes it while being covered by other soldiers.

but even if the vamps turn into a mist their options are limited, they cannot day-walk and we only attack during the day. when we attack a cave we spray it with garlic and holy water and expose the entire cave/bunker/sewer system to daylight using labor bots. A misted vamp only delays the inevitable.

The flashlight is a good idea if you fight vampires who wear armor. I won't get into EBA, that just opens up all kinds of debate, but normal armor, even cheap MDC body armor would make the assult rifle worthless.

[Danger]

you can make TW devices that do not require any special powers to operate whatsoever. they are a bit more expensive, but it can be done.

No, it's a LOT more expensive. Also, where are you coming up with the unlimited gems that you're making TW devices from?

The Gem Fairy?

[rat_bastard]

The flashlight is a good idea if you fight vampires who wear armor. I won't get into EBA, that just opens up all kinds of debate, but normal armor, even cheap MDC body armor would make the assult rifle worthless.

See here is the thing, if one in three vampires have an energy weapon then I think its fair to assume that one in three has some sort of vest. When in that situation we usually shoot them with energy weapons untill their armor is destroyed then use the silver bullets, and for every 8 gunmen we have 2 with garlic/holy water sprayers that will effect most vampires, unless they are the one in a large number who wears full environmental armor they are largely screwed by a spraying of garlic and holy water.

As of the current era of my game all of our soldiers carry a combination pulse laser/assault rifle, its heavier but since the majority of our troops are Vintex they can carry the heavier rifles with ease. This allows the soldiers to switch from mega damage lasers to deadly silver bullets in moments. This has been a lifesaver as Alexandria is often under assault from demons and deevils as well as Mystic Knights.

[Shark_Force]

you can make TW devices that do not require any special powers to operate whatsoever. they are a bit more expensive, but it can be done.

No, it's a LOT more expensive. Also, where are you coming up with the unlimited gems that you're making TW devices from?

The Gem Fairy?

you do realise that among the gems useful for techno-wizardry are a number of gems that aren't very hard to find, and which are not very uncommon i hope?

or perhaps you feel that having access to large amounts of, say, quartz, is unrealistic? if nothing else, there are sure to be pre-rifts jewelry stores that people are looting, and some gems (diamonds, in particular) can be man-made (though it's hard to say whether a man-made diamond would work for TW purposes, i can't recall any explicit mention).

additionally, there is the possibility for the merchants who sell gems to go to other dimensions to obtain them, or to trade with those who do. in all probability, there is someplace in the megaverse that thinks of diamonds the same things europeans thought of glass beads. the average TW likely doesn't know where it is... but you can bet there's someone (or several someones) in the megaverse who does, who is taking advantage of it, and who recognises the fact that rifts earth is both an interdimensional hotspot, and a prime market for selling these gems to. remember, rifts earth may be a devastated shattered wasteland, but it's also prime real estate for a lot of people/beings. people focusing on it more than they focus on other places is normal.

[Danger]

you can make TW devices that do not require any special powers to operate whatsoever. they are a bit more expensive, but it can be done.

No, it's a LOT more expensive. Also, where are you coming up with the unlimited gems that you're making TW devices from?

The Gem Fairy?

you do realise that among the gems useful for techno-wizardry are a number of gems that aren't very hard to find, and which are not very uncommon i hope?

or perhaps you feel that having access to large amounts of, say, quartz, is unrealistic? if nothing else, there are sure to be pre-rifts jewelry stores that people are looting, and some gems (diamonds, in particular) can be man-made (though it's hard to say whether a man-made diamond would work for TW purposes, i can't recall any explicit mention).

Quartz may be common, but I'm sure you are aware that not all T.W. items run soley on quartz? Please read 'About precious gemstones', R:UE pg. 134.

Additionally, there is the possibility for the merchants who sell gems to go to other dimensions to obtain them, or to trade with those who do. in all probability, there is someplace in the megaverse that thinks of diamonds the same things europeans thought of glass beads. the average TW likely doesn't know where it is... but you can bet there's someone (or several someones) in the megaverse who does, who is taking advantage of it, and who recognises the fact that rifts earth is both an interdimensional hotspot, and a prime market for selling these gems to. remember, rifts earth may be a devastated shattered wasteland, but it's also prime real estate for a lot of people/beings. people focusing on it more than they focus on other places is normal.

This is exactly what I'm talking about - The Gem Fairy. There is no canon source that is stated in print where there are unlimited gems for sale on Rifts Earth that I'm aware of. In fact, the page I quoted above says the exact opposite. Even places that may regularly have most types of gem stones, like Atlantis or Lazlo are not going to have them in unlimited quantities. If they did, why do they cost so much?

If you think otherwise, hell, I want to play a Techno-Wizard in your game!

[rat_bastard]

you can make TW devices that do not require any special powers to operate whatsoever. they are a bit more expensive, but it can be done.

No, it's a LOT more expensive. Also, where are you coming up with the unlimited gems that you're making TW devices from?

The Gem Fairy?

you do realise that among the gems useful for techno-wizardry are a number of gems that aren't very hard to find, and which are not very uncommon i hope?

or perhaps you feel that having access to large amounts of, say, quartz, is unrealistic? if nothing else, there are sure to be pre-rifts jewelry stores that people are looting, and some gems (diamonds, in particular) can be man-made (though it's hard to say whether a man-made diamond would work for TW purposes, i can't recall any explicit mention).

additionally, there is the possibility for the merchants who sell gems to go to other dimensions to obtain them, or to trade with those who do. in all probability, there is someplace in the megaverse that thinks of diamonds the same things europeans thought of glass beads. the average TW likely doesn't know where it is... but you can bet there's someone (or several someones) in the megaverse who does, who is taking advantage of it, and who recognises the fact that rifts earth is both an interdimensional hotspot, and a prime market for selling these gems to. remember, rifts earth may be a devastated shattered wasteland, but it's also prime real estate for a lot of people/beings. people focusing on it more than they focus on other places is normal.

In the game this point is academic, the Platinum Shield does not have the magical know how to make techno wizard devices that anyone can use without some extremely excessive cost (hit points, extra PPE or some other time and money consuming preparation), meanwhile cheaper and more universal technological approaches have consistently proven to be more effective. One techno wizard creates one rifle in a few days while one factory creates thousands of rifles and millions of bullets in the same amount of time. Its simply not practical to rely on something as expensive and inconsistent as magic.

[Shark_Force]

Quartz may be common, but I'm sure you are aware that not all T.W. items run soley on quartz? Please read 'About precious gemstones', R:UE pg. 134.

ok, sure, let's read that: "Certainly places like Atlantis have anything you might want, and cities like Lazlo, MercTown, and other trading centers should have a good if not complete selection."

gosh, that almost sounds like you can buy gemstones from a store, and that stores with a large selection available are not hard to find if you have access to a large trading center. which pretty much anyone can, if they actually care to.

This is exactly what I'm talking about - The Gem Fairy. There is no canon source that is stated in print where there are unlimited gems for sale on Rifts Earth that I'm aware of. In fact, the page I quoted above says the exact opposite. Even places that may regularly have most types of gem stones, like Atlantis or Lazlo are not going to have them in unlimited quantities. If they did, why do they cost so much?

If you think otherwise, hell, I want to play a Techno-Wizard in your game!

who needs unlimited gems? if they're so impossible to find, then they wouldn't even *have* prices, because nobody would be selling them, they'd be hoarding them. that being said, Atlantis is indicated as having "anything you might want". that sounds an awful lot like "if i WANT 10,000 carats of diamond, then Atlantis HAS 10,000 carats of diamond that i can buy."

so, sure, if i walk into some podunk general store in some 200 person town that counts itself lucky to be able to offer commodities like rechargeable batteries and copper wire, let alone diamonds, i'm out of luck. but if i go to a major trade center, i can buy these gemstones, because they aren't all that impossible to find, any more than MD weaponry or MDC armor (which are also rare, but not impossible to find)

[dark brandon]

ok, sure, let's read that: "Certainly places like Atlantis have anything you might want, and cities like Lazlo, MercTown, and other trading centers should have a good if not complete selection."

gosh, that almost sounds like you can buy gemstones from a store, and that stores with a large selection available are not hard to find if you have access to a large trading center. which pretty much anyone can, if they actually care to.

Finding and finding in large quantities are two different things. One can find a very valuble gem, but one will not find a whole lot of them. If they did, economically they would get cheaper and cheaper, so diamonds, if they could be found in large quantities, would eventually become worthless.

The cost for gems seems to be Universal, such as diamonds have always been expensive thus it's logical to assume that they are equally rare in most parts of the Megaverse. There may be a mythic place where diamonds flow like water, but probably not. I wouldn't allow it as a GM and it's not supported by any book or source.

who needs unlimited gems? if they're so impossible to find, then they wouldn't even *have* prices, because nobody would be selling them, they'd be hoarding them. that being said, Atlantis is indicated as having "anything you might want". that sounds an awful lot like "if i WANT 10,000 carats of diamond, then Atlantis HAS 10,000 carats of diamond that i can buy."

so, sure, if i walk into some podunk general store in some 200 person town that counts itself lucky to be able to offer commodities like rechargeable batteries and copper wire, let alone diamonds, i'm out of luck. but if i go to a major trade center, i can buy these gemstones, because they aren't all that impossible to find, any more than MD weaponry or MDC armor (which are also rare, but not impossible to find)

If they were impossible to find they'd have much higher prices than listed or be listed as "invaluble". As they are not impossible, just rare, the cost reflects that.

[Shark_Force]

diamonds are rare today. nonetheless, if i go to a mall and i have a crapload of money, odds are good i could buy hundreds of carats of diamonds. likewise with most precious gems; notwithstanding they're fairly rare, i can probably buy them quite easily if i have a sufficiently large amount of money.

now, granted, if you go to lazlo and ask for 1,000 or even 100 carats of diamonds, they may not have it handy at any given store (though it wouldn't surprise me too much if such an amount was available for sale by going to multiple shops). but if you want something like 10 carats of diamonds, probably not so hard. it might not be cheap, but it certainly is likely to be available if you have the money for it.

[dark brandon]

diamonds are rare today. nonetheless, if i go to a mall and i have a crapload of money, odds are good i could buy hundreds of carats of diamonds. likewise with most precious gems; notwithstanding they're fairly rare, i can probably buy them quite easily if i have a sufficiently large amount of money.

now, granted, if you go to lazlo and ask for 1,000 or even 100 carats of diamonds, they may not have it handy at any given store (though it wouldn't surprise me too much if such an amount was available for sale by going to multiple shops). but if you want something like 10 carats of diamonds, probably not so hard. it might not be cheap, but it certainly is likely to be available if you have the money for it.

Depends. You walk into a shop with a ton of cash, you can buy them out of stock. Depending on where they get their stock it could be a while before they have more on hand. Just because you have a a lot of money with you doesn't mean they can make more stock appear.

[rat_bastard]

The Gem Question is largely academic in this game, Naruni Sells gems from all around the galaxy, you can place an order and they will have the correct gem within 2 business days.

that said, not everyone can use the items, and they are stupid expensive, so besides mages and certain psychics we don't make a huge practice of selling them.

[V-Origin]

RB, I hope your GM doesn't stumble across my 15th level Harvester/Necromancer/Master Vampire with 180,000 Hit Points. All legit.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=110555

[rat_bastard]

I am my GM, and screw that thing.

[V-Origin]

I am my GM, and screw that thing.

Hey it is legit and all that's preventing it from being created is an oven exploding or a cab running someone over.

[rat_bastard]

I only allow naturally formed gems to be used for magic.