Hypothetical Senario: Glitter Boy vs. Three SAMAS

[Subjugator]

My complaint is that you're not specific or clear in your response. I remember you mumbling something about "well, you can just shoot the cardboard, so there wouldn't be any penalty..."
But I don't remember you indicating how you think that interacts with the context of the situation.

Okay.

If you're saying that you can shoot the cover in order to avoid the specific -10 penalty, having your shot blast on through and have a good chance of hitting the person on the other side, then you're in agreement with my initial claim.

My answer to that would be that the RAW do not allow this, but that a common sense ruling would. The common sense ruling to the case in point (hiding behind collapsed buildings) would NOT be similar to what you're describing.

If you're saying (or rather, NOT saying due to a lack of clarity), "Well, a cardboard the exact size and shape is one thing, a boulder twice the size of the person is another..." then let's talk about that.
Do you think that shooting through cover only works if the cover is the exact size and shape of the person hiding behind it?
What if it's a few inches bigger?
A foot bigger?
A few feet?
A few yards?
Where's your cutoff point?

MY cutoff point would vary, depending on the situation. The RAW do not have such a cutoff point.

And when you reach that point, does the effective strike penalty for hitting that person behind the cover jump immediately from 0 to -10?
Or is it a safe assumption that the rules allow the GM to have discretion and allow for penalties somewhere between 0 and -10?
Like say if the person is smack in the middle of a 5' radius Cloak of Darkness spell, making them technically invisible even though you know their general location (in the middle of the zone), maybe the strike penalty would only be -3 to hit them, because you can easily enough shoot their cover/concealment (the darkness), and the -10 strike penalty is way too much?

The GM does have discretion. Do you think that a person who thinks that the heat signature above a PA is the same as 'seeing' a PA when reading the RAW and a person who disagrees with such a reading of the RAW are going to reach agreement on common sense rulings?

/Sub

[Subjugator]

Yet there is no actual time alloted for movement IN combat, as shown by the combat description.
It's all attack and defend, never once anything about moving.

There is no time alloted for movement in the combat actions. That does not preclude other things from taking place during combat.

I understand the point you're going for, but this is not a valid example of what you're getting at (which is surprising, because normally you're the king of good examples).

Actually, I'm suggesting that it's stupid to try to go 100% RAW, because the game doesn't work that way.

Fine - YOUR EXAMPLE is suggesting that the combat rules address all things that CAN happen in combat.

Right- which is why you can't move during combat.
The combat rules only address attacking and defending (and init).
Since the combat rules don't allow for movement, there no movement in combat.

The combat rules do not address all aspects of the game that are applicable while combat is taking place. As such, movement still relies upon the movement rules. Regeneration still relies upon the regeneration rules. Insanity still relies upon the insanity rules. Life goes on even during combat. In this case, so does movement.

No, it doesn't. Yours makes just as little sense, and also interferes with game play.

For rules of movement? It certainly does not.

Actually, you are adding to the rules. You've already added in the rule that you can shoot somebody through a cardboard cut-out, right?
(unless I misremember and you're saying that you can shoot the cardboard but not the person behind it).

What I said was that the actual target would be the cardboard cut out.

And you might not have "subtracted" the Cloak of Darkness rules, but you sure as heck are ignoring them.

I'm not ignoring them. It has specific rules to specifically address it. Those supersede the rules for shooting something you cannot see as they are specific to Cloak of Darkness.

Really?
You can still play.
You can even still play this combat.
It'll be more limited than you like, but you can still roll strikes and defenses for everybody just fine.
You might not like it, just like I don't like your RAW point, but it's playable.

Really? In your example, everyone dies during combat because their hearts stop beating and their brains stop working. See, there are no rules for continuing brain function in the combat rules section, and the same applies to the heart, so everyone dies at the moment combat starts.

My perspective differs greatly from the one you are presenting. I am saying that when arguing here, when two people cannot agree to a given set of house rules, they must use RAW and neither add to nor subtract from them. You are saying that any given section of rules addresses everything that can happen while in that mode and that if it is not included, it does not exist. My counter argument for that is that a given section of rules addresses things pertinent to that specific need, but that if something is already addressed elsewhere, then it is not eliminated or duplicated unless specific changes to that situation are called for.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

We also know that simultaneous attacks apply in ranged and melee combat.

The fact that it wasn't specified was used as evidence that it wasn't allowed, but that argument was proven wrong.
Lack of specification does necessarily not mean lack of allowance.

Do we seriously? A good argument was presented to show why the rules may not allow this. I'm not very up on simultaneous attacks and haven't read much about them, but their inclusion as an option in melee combat and the notable exclusion in ranged makes me wonder.

/Sub

[Dustin Fireblade]

Yet there is no actual time alloted for movement IN combat, as shown by the combat description.
It's all attack and defend, never once anything about moving.

So....the description of the Speed attribute on RUE pg 281 which tells you how far you can move on your "attack" doesn't apply?

Doesn't the definition of "Shooting Wild" on RUE pg 361 include such descriptors as running, leaping and dodging?

[dark brandon]

Evasive action doesn't require an Att action but it does seem to require the Defender to declare that is what they are doing. That suggests a commitment of some variety...else why would it be singled out as a separate penalty to strike? Seems to me a Character would pay for that commitment. The payoff is thathey get to Dodge. The Penalty is that they have to.

Or so it seems to me.

I simply say it as "movement". IE: We're flying to the glitterboy taking evasive action (IE zig zag as rather than flying straight at it). So, it's just a type of movement...or so it seems to me

On another note...I just read the rules for a Simultaneous Attack. Good lord! If I am reading it right, it means that when the SAM decides to fire ANYTHING the GB can simply give up the Dodge they don't want to take anyways and blast the poor sod...am I missing something?

If I'm not...the GB vs SAM fight gets REALLY one sided..

SAMAS 1: I Aim a Called Shot with one of my missiles at the Boomgun.
GB: I laugh as he fires, allow the plasma to wash over my gun and blast him!
SAMAS 1: Eep?!?! <<Ka BOOM!!!>>

WildWalker

Your right. How would a SAMAS defend against this? The simplest way is to avoid attacking. One big factor the GB has is range, the longer he waits for them to close the easier it will be for the Samas. Playing as a GB, I would take shots at them and try to keep range. This may mean trying to hide, because up close they are going to rip me up.

Playing as a SAMAS I want to close range and flank. I want to make it impossible for him to get simul attacks and utilize his lack of mobility. When I shoot the Boom gun, I want to be behind him. I know he only has 175 MDC. Without his Boom Gun, he's easy pickings. So my target is going to be only the Boom Gun.

[Killer Cyborg]

Yet there is no actual time alloted for movement IN combat, as shown by the combat description.
It's all attack and defend, never once anything about moving.

So....the description of the Speed attribute on RUE pg 281 which tells you how far you can move on your "attack" doesn't apply?

Doesn't the definition of "Shooting Wild" on RUE pg 361 include such descriptors as running, leaping and dodging?

Look at the combat section.
There are five steps.
NONE of them allow for moving around like that.
You roll init.
Then the attacker rolls the attack die.
He doesn't choose between actions.
He doesn't get to move first, or pick a lock first, or even look around.
All he can do is roll that attack die.

Of course, the movement rules are meant to apply during combat- that's just common sense.
But going strictly 100% by the actual rules of combat, you can't do anything other than roll for init, roll for attack, and roll for defense.

[Killer Cyborg]

We also know that simultaneous attacks apply in ranged and melee combat.

The fact that it wasn't specified was used as evidence that it wasn't allowed, but that argument was proven wrong.
Lack of specification does necessarily not mean lack of allowance.

Do we seriously? A good argument was presented to show why the rules may not allow this. I'm not very up on simultaneous attacks and haven't read much about them, but their inclusion as an option in melee combat and the notable exclusion in ranged makes me wonder.

/Sub

I asked Kevin, he said "Yes." I've mentioned this in a number of threads.
Somebody else* asked Kevin, and he said "Yes." It's in the FAQ.



*at least, I think it was somebody else... maybe they were using me: I can't remember for certain.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Yet there is no actual time alloted for movement IN combat, as shown by the combat description.
It's all attack and defend, never once anything about moving.

So....the description of the Speed attribute on RUE pg 281 which tells you how far you can move on your "attack" doesn't apply?

Doesn't the definition of "Shooting Wild" on RUE pg 361 include such descriptors as running, leaping and dodging?

Look at the combat section.
There are five steps.
NONE of them allow for moving around like that.
You roll init.
Then the attacker rolls the attack die.
He doesn't choose between actions.
He doesn't get to move first, or pick a lock first, or even look around.
All he can do is roll that attack die.

Of course, the movement rules are meant to apply during combat- that's just common sense.
But going strictly 100% by the actual rules of combat, you can't do anything other than roll for init, roll for attack, and roll for defense.

Obviously then the character with NO hand to hand combat training is going to be sitting pretty good then since he gets "non-combat" actions.

(On a side note, I've finally read the whole thread - I can't believe some of the statements here )

[TechnoGothic]

Instead of bickering back and forth why not find an unbiased GM then get three people to play SAMAS pilots, and one person to play the GB?

Then play the scenario out three times using the rules as in RUE. Run it like a play by post (on post per action) on a website that has a die roller, or use a die roller program where everyone can see the rolls as they are made.

I offered to do that a long time ago.

/Sub

Which I did Today with some friends. I Vetren Player (Played the 3 SAMAS), the novice Player (played the GB).

FYI = simultaneous attack = Just means giving up your Dodge/parry/Roll action to attack back as your action. You risk taking the Hit of an attack. Best done in Ranged Combat.

Ok. As for the Play by Play...

GM = All of you are in the ruins of Old Detroit. GB. As you start to finish walking off an old Highway Bridge, your Radar locates 3 targets. Your computer idents them as SAMAS (foe). SAMAS squad. As you near the old Detroit downtown busness section. Your Radar picks up a single Target. Your computer idents it as a Glitterboy Classic (Foe). Foe means their is no accompaning Friend signal. This this is not a CS/FQ GB Samas pilots. Roll for Initative to see who get to go first. GB wins Initiative with a natural 20.

GB = This is a Foe right. I'm going to find a building, one of the taller ones and duck into it as fast as I can. (just using Movement)
SAM = We turn our Samas toward the Radar hit. Oh wait, one of us is hurt already. He will run towards the GB best he can. The other two will fly no faster than 60 mph also right now.
GB = Ok I'm inside a building. Am I still on Radar ? No, good. I move up the building several floors. I try to get at least 5 floors up. Easy ok. Ohh GB Hover Jets can boost me up 25 feet to each floor since some stairs are broken, great.
SAM = He fanished from Radar already ? When we were 4 miles away ? Not good. My Samas squad stops and takes quick cover just in case. Clear, ok. Try to figure out where he disappeared to. He is in the Skyscraper section ? Not good. Limits where we can fly and how we react. We close in more at 60 mph in formation on the ground right now.

GM = Both hold several actions. GB waits in a 5th Story looking out a corner window to the samas. Samas close in looking for ambushe site, too bad every building is a snipers paridise. Samas get within the 2 mile mark. GB you notice on your right side the samas coming down the road best they can. They are not flying, running instead. The middle/rear samas' jets are smoking from damage or overheated/burnout.

GB = Staying in the shadows, I want to aim at the smoking Samas. Can I am for the head. I can. What negatives to hit ? geeze. This is a great ambush however, I'll risk negative. I aim, and Fire at the Head. (rolls 19 before bonuses). Rolls damage (3d6x10 = Whoa, 15x10= 150 mdc to Head.) Samas is Toast.

SAM = OHH SH!T. as the smoking samas head blows up/through. We duck and look around.

GM = You hear the BOOM of a GB-BG echoing through the city like Thunder during a Thunderstorm.

SAM = Can we tell where is came from which direction ? Direction we are headed towards. Good. Bad. Where the F%^* is he. Not on rader ?!? One Samas uses an action to try and figure out why. "He is in a Building !!" other sam uses detect ambush again to figure out the best place. The Taller Buildings the really big ones.

GB = I fire again this time at the one on the left side. Ohh i'd have to move to shoot that one. Ok the one one the right then. I only see his Left arm ? I'd have to move to shoot him too ? Can i shoot the arm ? Great. Called shot again. (rolls 16 before bonuses). Samas takes a Hit to the right arm. Damage (3d6x10= 17. 170 mdc) Yikes. Sorry about the arm, thats why they invented bionics.

GM = OK one of the Samas loses an his right arm and the Railgun in it and it falls to the ground. Your finger squizing the trigger once almost hitting your partner.

SAM = Damn I'm losing guys fast. Wounded Samas retreats best he can before he bleeds to death while radioing for backup. The undamaged Samas Fires randomly doing a swipping arch. (rolls a Natural 20) OMG I needed that. Rolls damage (1d4x10= 40) Sweet.

GM = While your Burst swipps, you notice a unique sound of a gun-round hitting a MDC alloy and the spark of the rounds hitting the armor.

SAM = He made it up there ? dang, I fly as fast as I can to the side to keep buildings between him and me. Not my turn. Ohh man.

GB = right. I got Hit ? How I cannot see that Samas right. Ohh he shot my arm/holding the BG. Not good. I move to see him, and fire at him, without aiming. Roll (natural 20) Damage (3d6x10= 30 = 60) That sucks. Oh doubles to 60 good. I like this game.

SAM = Crap, I just knocked down didn't I ? Ok rolling to see if I do. Thank You dice. I FLY FAST and TRUE. Screw this I retreat. A single Samas is no match for a GB and I would know that.

-------------
That was the FIRST time we played it out.
We played it out 3 more times. Each time, the GB would be this or something like it. The Samas once got within 4000 ft. Shot the GB with a mini-missile but still did not last past 1 minute In-Game time.
I was sure the Samas would do better.

[Shark_Force]

so wait... the response of the SAMAS to "our opponent has disappeared and has (one of?) the most destructive and long range weapons apart from missile volleys on the continent" was "hey, i know... we'll just walk down the road, in the open, slowly"? (the only reason to be traveling at that speed is to be advancing behind cover)

veteran or not, that guy had no clue what he was doing.

[Jefffar]

TechnoGothic, did you try it sterile? ie no cover for anyone?

[TechnoGothic]

So...while waiting for the turkey to cook I playtested the scenario a couple of times because I wasn't sure if I was remembering things a bit "rosy". Now I think I need to play out this scenario in a PvP with a referee because the results were so skewed in the GB's favor it wasn't funny.

First scenario was a straight up ambush from the GB. One round of firing on unprepared flying SAMs pretty much made the rest of the scenario cleanup. Did that one twice.

First time it was three aimed called shots in round one wing/wing/wing. Once they were grounded, skeet shooting missile volleys and aimed called shotting weapons, arms, legs etc as the SAMs came in, pretty much reduced them to ineffectiveness and killed them bad. Damage to eh GB was quite minimal.

Second time they knew each other was there and the SAMs combined high fast runs with one on the ground as the tip of the spear...the GB got a little more snoted up but it ended up pretty much the same.

Last scenario was a SAM ambush and the GB got ground down pretty bad but he skeeted the guy trying for a hit and run and it again never actually made it to melee range.

Out of this I had two revelations. The first is that aimed called shots with a gun big enough to blast important tools like weapons in a single shot truly rocks. The second is that a pair of mini missiles is just not much of a backup weapon.

My son was impatiently rolling the dice so I don't have a shot by shot summary but I'm going to stick to my guns. I say, unless the GB gets unlucky that 3 SAMs get wasted every time.

The Boomgun is just too dominant.

I now want to try thing against some Grinning Jacks to see if 3 times as many mini-missiles might change things.

WildWalker

The CS Special Forces Samas would be better suited to fight GBs.
Each one has like 18 mini-missiles (x3) 54 mini-missiles between 3 SF-Samas

[TechnoGothic]

so wait... the response of the SAMAS to "our opponent has disappeared and has (one of?) the most destructive and long range weapons apart from missile volleys on the continent" was "hey, i know... we'll just walk down the road, in the open, slowly"? (the only reason to be traveling at that speed is to be advancing behind cover)

veteran or not, that guy had no clue what he was doing.

He had them taking cover best they could to travel as fast as they can to get where they were going. The Samas also did not know the GB had taken cover up high. I have to give him props for not using Player-Knowledge.

They did take cover after the first one's head exploded. Thats why the GB would have to move to see them clearly or at all.

TechnoGothic, did you try it sterile? ie no cover for anyone?

Cover was used by the Samas and GB. Just did not do the Samas much good from a oppent up on the 5th Story of a building shooting downwards.

As gm I ranomly rolled 1d4 to see how much cover they each had taken.
GB rolled a 4 "total cover" in Darkness, etc...
Sam 1 rolled 1 "no cover" got his head blown off.
Sam 2 rolled 3 "3/4 cover". His Arm and weapon had no cover. Which the GB shot off.
Same 3 rolled 4 "total cover". GB could not see him, and would need to move his position to try and see him. That Sam decided "screw this...retreat."

Very logical fighting with no backup to come in and help.

[Shark_Force]

there are hundreds of collapsed buildings to hide behind and move between. probably thousands. how did any SAMAS not have good cover? for at least 2 attacks worth? (it's 2 attacks to call a shot, 3 for an aimed called shot) the entire area is full of cover, including cover that would be useful against a person 5 stories up. oh, the glitterboy might have been able to get a shot off while they're moving between cover, but no way could he spend 2 attacks aiming at someone's head while they're moving from cover to cover at 60 mph.

also, i'm a bit doubtful of the building holding the glitterboy. 400 years of exposure to elements plus 1.2 tons of robotic exoskeleton do not a good combo make. i'm extremely doubtful of the glitterboy's location not being blindingly obvious once it fired; the boom gun shatters windows and whatnot. you just look for the building with the massive dust cloud (heck, even before the shot is made, there should be a huge dust cloud; 400 years worth of dust + jets powerful enough to lift 1.2 tons, after all) and which is probably collapsing due to being 400 years old with no maintenance or repairs and having a weapon fired that creates a sonic boom loud enough to shatter windows 300 feet away.

(there's probably also some chance the SAMAS radar would have penetrated the building to detect the significantly different composition of the glitterboy, but i am not a radar operator, and it may depend on the type of radar, skill of operator, and who knows what else, so i'm not qualified to say whether it would or it wouldn't merely that it's not entirely impossible; radio and/or microwaves are used, and clearly radio waves can pass through buildings, so it's possible the radar would indeed spot the glitterboy in the fifth floor of a building clear as day)

[Jefffar]

...

(there's probably also some chance the SAMAS radar would have penetrated the building to detect the significantly different composition of the glitterboy, but i am not a radar operator, and it may depend on the type of radar, skill of operator, and who knows what else, so i'm not qualified to say whether it would or it wouldn't merely that it's not entirely impossible; radio and/or microwaves are used, and clearly radio waves can pass through buildings, so it's possible the radar would indeed spot the glitterboy in the fifth floor of a building clear as day)

Only at extremely close ranges with a specialized radar set, so I'd say not likely.

[dark brandon]

Sorry techno, but your experiment with your characters/players is extremely one sided.

[Killer Cyborg]

Of course, the movement rules are meant to apply during combat- that's just common sense.
But going strictly 100% by the actual rules of combat, you can't do anything other than roll for init, roll for attack, and roll for defense.

Obviously then the character with NO hand to hand combat training is going to be sitting pretty good then since he gets "non-combat" actions.


Nah, it's the same thing- they get those actions, but there's no place in the combat for him/her to use them.
The rules never say "take your attack or make your action"; they say, "Attacker Rolls to Strike."

(On a side note, I've finally read the whole thread - I can't believe some of the statements here )

Yeah, I have that reaction to most threads.

[jaymz]

Of course, the movement rules are meant to apply during combat- that's just common sense.
But going strictly 100% by the actual rules of combat, you can't do anything other than roll for init, roll for attack, and roll for defense.

Obviously then the character with NO hand to hand combat training is going to be sitting pretty good then since he gets "non-combat" actions.


Nah, it's the same thing- they get those actions, but there's no place in the combat for him/her to use them.
The rules never say "take your attack or make your action"; they say, "Attacker Rolls to Strike."

(On a side note, I've finally read the whole thread - I can't believe some of the statements here )

Yeah, I have that reaction to most threads.

To be honest, why didnt they stay airborne? The glitterboy woudl have received even more penalties to thit them do to be airborne/moving a fast rates of speed. Not to mentionas was previously said its 2 attacks for a called shot. I woudl think the Smas would have a system that detect a lock on. Most fighter craft to day do so a Sam certainly should. That would give them the heads up to dodge whil;e the reaming two can watch for where he firs from. Also did they not think to use Thermal, spread out? They marched in formation down the street towards an enemy who has equal armour to the three of the total as wellas a wepon that outguns them altogether. They aren't infantry, they are airborne support/infantry, and they should have been used as such. The gave up thier entire advantage in teh first round of the fight when teh GB dropped off Radar.

[Subjugator]

That was the FIRST time we played it out.
We played it out 3 more times. Each time, the GB would be this or something like it. The Samas once got within 4000 ft. Shot the GB with a mini-missile but still did not last past 1 minute In-Game time.
I was sure the Samas would do better.

You did several things that render this irrelevant to me:

1. You did not play it in a manner that is subject to confirmation (i.e. a neutral third party from the boards GMing it).
2. The SAMs did not remain in cover from the moment they detected a GB.
3. Going by your description, the GB was played as intelligently as possible. The SAMs were not.
4. The GI Joe rule was ignored.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

Cover was used by the Samas and GB. Just did not do the Samas much good from a oppent up on the 5th Story of a building shooting downwards.

As gm I ranomly rolled 1d4 to see how much cover they each had taken.
GB rolled a 4 "total cover" in Darkness, etc...
Sam 1 rolled 1 "no cover" got his head blown off.
Sam 2 rolled 3 "3/4 cover". His Arm and weapon had no cover. Which the GB shot off.
Same 3 rolled 4 "total cover". GB could not see him, and would need to move his position to try and see him. That Sam decided "screw this...retreat."

Very logical fighting with no backup to come in and help.

That is a garbage way to determine cover. Do you honestly think a person cannot tell that they are eight feet tall standing behind a two foot tall shrubbery?

/Sub

[Subjugator]

To be honest, why didnt they stay airborne? The glitterboy woudl have received even more penalties to thit them do to be airborne/moving a fast rates of speed. Not to mentionas was previously said its 2 attacks for a called shot. I woudl think the Smas would have a system that detect a lock on. Most fighter craft to day do so a Sam certainly should. That would give them the heads up to dodge whil;e the reaming two can watch for where he firs from. Also did they not think to use Thermal, spread out? They marched in formation down the street towards an enemy who has equal armour to the three of the total as wellas a wepon that outguns them altogether. They aren't infantry, they are airborne support/infantry, and they should have been used as such. The gave up thier entire advantage in teh first round of the fight when teh GB dropped off Radar.

Because if they actually get under decent cover (though it was apparently assumed that they didn't know how to do so), the GB has a -10 to strike them.

/Sub

[jaymz]

To be honest, why didnt they stay airborne? The glitterboy woudl have received even more penalties to thit them do to be airborne/moving a fast rates of speed. Not to mentionas was previously said its 2 attacks for a called shot. I woudl think the Smas would have a system that detect a lock on. Most fighter craft to day do so a Sam certainly should. That would give them the heads up to dodge whil;e the reaming two can watch for where he firs from. Also did they not think to use Thermal, spread out? They marched in formation down the street towards an enemy who has equal armour to the three of the total as wellas a wepon that outguns them altogether. They aren't infantry, they are airborne support/infantry, and they should have been used as such. The gave up thier entire advantage in teh first round of the fight when teh GB dropped off Radar.

Because if they actually get under decent cover (though it was apparently assumed that they didn't know how to do so), the GB has a -10 to strike them.

/Sub

Oh and not to mention that yeah as someone else said, first time he fires he is no longer hiding since ht book gun would create a hell of a dust cloud from his position. At that point id be firing my entire squads minimissile load atthe floor below and above him. Lets seem him dig out fromunder a couple of tons off rubble

[jaymz]

To be honest, why didnt they stay airborne? The glitterboy woudl have received even more penalties to thit them do to be airborne/moving a fast rates of speed. Not to mentionas was previously said its 2 attacks for a called shot. I woudl think the Smas would have a system that detect a lock on. Most fighter craft to day do so a Sam certainly should. That would give them the heads up to dodge whil;e the reaming two can watch for where he firs from. Also did they not think to use Thermal, spread out? They marched in formation down the street towards an enemy who has equal armour to the three of the total as wellas a wepon that outguns them altogether. They aren't infantry, they are airborne support/infantry, and they should have been used as such. The gave up thier entire advantage in teh first round of the fight when teh GB dropped off Radar.

Because if they actually get under decent cover (though it was apparently assumed that they didn't know how to do so), the GB has a -10 to strike them.

/Sub

Oh and not to mention that yeah as someone else said, first time he fires he is no longer hiding since ht book gun would create a hell of a dust cloud from his position. At that point id be firing my entire squads minimissile load atthe floor below and above him. Lets seem him dig out fromunder a couple of tons off rubble

Personally if he dropped off radar, I would have started doing high speed/max speed recon passes. Pretty hard to hit a 300mph moving airbourne target even with a mach 5 weapon. then as soon as he took a shot he was done. Especially in the cover scenario he was in. I woudln't take him out as I said in my previous post , i would take teh building out

[Shark_Force]

Oh and not to mention that yeah as someone else said, first time he fires he is no longer hiding since ht book gun would create a hell of a dust cloud from his position. At that point id be firing my entire squads minimissile load atthe floor below and above him. Lets seem him dig out fromunder a couple of tons off rubble

Personally if he dropped off radar, I would have started doing high speed/max speed recon passes. Pretty hard to hit a 300mph moving airbourne target even with a mach 5 weapon. then as soon as he took a shot he was done. Especially in the cover scenario he was in. I woudln't take him out as I said in my previous post , i would take teh building out [/quote]
provided, of course, his little stunt didn't collapse the building in the first place (again, 400 years of exposure to the elements, sonic boom that shatters windows up to 300 feet away. oh, and did i mention the floor isn't likely to provide much of a grip for his pylons? i don't think i did)

[Killer Cyborg]

Cover was used by the Samas and GB. Just did not do the Samas much good from a oppent up on the 5th Story of a building shooting downwards.

As gm I ranomly rolled 1d4 to see how much cover they each had taken.
GB rolled a 4 "total cover" in Darkness, etc...
Sam 1 rolled 1 "no cover" got his head blown off.
Sam 2 rolled 3 "3/4 cover". His Arm and weapon had no cover. Which the GB shot off.
Same 3 rolled 4 "total cover". GB could not see him, and would need to move his position to try and see him. That Sam decided "screw this...retreat."

Very logical fighting with no backup to come in and help.

That is a garbage way to determine cover. Do you honestly think a person cannot tell that they are eight feet tall standing behind a two foot tall shrubbery?

/Sub

You're assuming that the "plenty of cover" in the scenario means "Plenty of complete cover for 10' tall power armor.
He was assuming that the amount of cover varied, which is the more logical assumption.

I tend to think that if the scenario was designed for the SAMs to have complete cover until they were in melee range, the scenario would have started them off in melee to begin with.

[DtMK]

Another possibility to consider is running this scenario featuring more than one of the Glitter Boy and/or SAMAS types. The playing field might change a bit if it were the Glitter Boy No.7 or Mutants in Orbit GB with the particle beam cannon that does 4D6X10 damage per shot!

[jaymz]

Well the standard is however, a Glitterboy (main book) versus 3 Samas (old school)

My money is on the old school sams with competent pilots.

[DtMK]

True, and I see plenty of discussion here. I simply thought it would be a matter of time before someone decides to strafe a GB with a Striker, Super SAMAS, Sidewinder or Wild Weasel or even the FQ models with the vibro-blade wings. Once those were introduced, it would be a matter of time to bring in the variant GB's from NGR, Japan Free Quebec or space.

[jaymz]

True, and I see plenty of discussion here. I simply thought it would be a matter of time before someone decides to strafe a GB with a Striker, Super SAMAS, Sidewinder or Wild Weasel or even the FQ models with the vibro-blade wings. Once those were introduced, it would be a matter of time to bring in the variant GB's from NGR, Japan Free Quebec or space.

Exactley and the most versatile would in fact be the NGR model with its multiple weapon systems including a secondary main gun. That is one that might actually survive the out come versus 3 Sams.

But I digress, the topic is about old school if I recall

[J_cobbers]

Hey there I'm a bit of a lurker on the boards here and wanted to chime in. Been a while since I played Rifts so I'm going off things I remember, and what you all have quoted for RAW from RUE. FYI I'm in the Army currently deployed and no I don't have my gaming books with me.

So lets dive in shall we? Dodging issues: only apply the bonuses to dodge when making a dodge, not counted against the strike. Leaping, is not listed in combat rules as a defensive maneuver. I.e. either you are already leaping when you make a dodge (and get the +5) or you aren't. You can't say oh I'm going to leap to dodge and get the bonus. You can dodge, and on your next action declare you leap. The rules say it is a bonus to dodge while leaping, not that you can leap as part of your dodge. ie the dodge can be incorporated only after you are already mid leap. Otherwise you are leaping while dodging, which isn't mentioned RAW to be a bonus, but I suppose if you said I dodge, and I want to leap to do it, that means if you get shot at again that round you can dodge again, and get the bonus, but not on the inital dodge. Tt's a matter of how the rule was phrased, otherwise everyone would leap when they dodge all the time, and it would be some sort of common twinky practice. I have a sneaking suspci

In short if you declared as your action that round you are moving by leaping you get the bonus if you come under fire that round and need to make a dodge. You do not get it to say you leap as your dodge and pick up the bonus.

On the issue of "Twice as Big" Mass is a perfectly valid way to make that determination. Something twice as massive is twice as hard to move. Height/width/depth don't make any sense. Here is why: If you have two standing objects of the same mass the shorter one is harder to tip over as it is more dense and has a lower center of gravity. Also if you do want to factor in something like volume (also a measurement of size) then remember 3 dimensional objects increase volume on a cube root. That is to say a 2 cubic foot object is 8 times the volume of a 1 cubic foot object. That is to say it is twice as tall, wide and deep, but 8 times as big when measured by volume, and if made of the same material, also 8 times as heavy. Thus the GB can quickly be twice as big with out being twice as tall if the arms, legs, torso and head have slightly larger dimensions than the SAMAS. That should settle how you all resolve the body block/tackle/ram attacks in terms of whether or not the GB is knocked over.

Thermal imaging and total cover: Sub's right, deal with it and adapt. Sure all you can see is the heat radiating above the SAMAS when behind cover, but if they peek out even a little, it'll show up like fireworks. No the GB won't know exactly where to aim, the SAMAS could be up higher than the ground level as large piles of debris are 3 dimensional objects and more like small hills. So yes if completely behind the rubble the either side is at -10 to try and shoot the other. Now if I was the GB I'd use the heat trails to know where my targets are generally located and move to a spot where I do have a clear shot, or where I know they will have to make a dash to the next area of cover and thus be exposed. Sorry to say SUB but on a battlefield when you are moving, you simply aren't going to have cover 100% of the time. To think so is ignorant and naive. Play any modern FPS and try to stay under cover all the time when approaching an enemy, it doesn't happen, play some paint ball, it doesn't happen. Better yet, join the military as a ground ponder and do some combat drills. Guess what? You don't have total cover all the time. When you move from cover to cover you will be exposed, a harder target, but still the chance is there for the enemy to get a shot in. Now the flip side is that the GB is going to show up like a candle on birthday cake too. If hiding in the dark shadows of building with its windows blown out (if they aren't before he starts shooting they soon will be after the first strike of the boom gun) and large holes in it from years of disintegration after the apocalypse.

Radar: buildings and rubble will conceal what's behind it. So if the Samas aren't flying much above ground level they should stay off the GB's scope except when they move in between areas of cover. A GB hiding in a building (as it seems to be the tactic dejour won't show up on radar as anything special, but see above for thermal. And yes I'm pretty sure SAMAS have thermal, again CWC seems to indicate that it does if I remember right.

Close combat: you can fire guns in melee range, you can use melee attacks on someone with a gun if you are close enough to them. Therefore you should be able to use grapple attacks and entangle defenses up close even if being shot at (this happens all the time in martial arts movies). I would need my books to read through as to how many attacks are used to maintain it, and how you can break free, so I got no further comments as to the exact interpretation of the rules.

Mini missiles as I remember are unguided, and therefore can hit only main body, and blast area again only effects main body of other caught in the radius, therefore no splash damage to other parts of the GB. Realistic? hmm depends on the type of ammo used. In real live an armor penetrating shaped charge will go through cold rolled steel like nothing if it hits dead on(which is why MRAMPS have curved hulls and angled sides, to deflect the angle of attack and minimize damage). Likewise I'm pretty sure you aren't allowed called shots with burst fire. Now there is something I remember from the old Rifts Conversion Book, Kevin talked about several situations where the normal rules don't apply. Can someone check and see if one of those situations included someone being shot point blank in the head when bound or incapacitated? My memory is pretty fuzzy but I think there might be something there. If it is, that may open the possibility of a held/entangled/or grappled GB's boom gun to being shot by mini missiles and rail guns. This requires that at least 2 Samas survive to get close and further that at least one is able to use one of those attacks to tie up the boom gun or the GB's arms so he cant fire. If I'm wrong, well then that's a lot of 1D4 attacks to be made or hand to hand attacks.

There was some other stuff but I can't remember and really slogging through the back log on this discussion isn't high on my priorities at the moment. I'm not really in a position to play test and say who I think would win, but I think the edge does go to the GB unless the SAMAS have perfect cover up to the point where they can close to melee and grapple the GB to the ground, and are allowed to point blank fire point blank on the boom gun. But as long as the GB is free the Samas are at a big risk. Once they close to melee they lose their flying bonus, and can't constantly leap around to fight effectively (firing wild).

[Jefffar]

One thing I should point out: We are arguing about 3 Coalition SAMAS - arguably the best PA from the Coalition and the second best PA in North America from the fall of man until around 100 PA versus just 1 Glitterboy.

The argument itself presupposes the GB will indeed be a pretty tough customer.

Just as a reminder.


Another thing, that I have already mentioned, but the main respondents tend to ignore, is that each GM runs the rules differently because of the way the rules are written. Ignoring possible bias or situational advantages, this will swing the advantages about wildly.

In short, the answer to this thread is "It depends on the GM running the encounter and the specifics of the encounter."

[Killer Cyborg]

Another thing, that I have already mentioned, but the main respondents tend to ignore, is that each GM runs the rules differently because of the way the rules are written. Ignoring possible bias or situational advantages, this will swing the advantages about wildly.

In short, the answer to this thread is "It depends on the GM running the encounter and the specifics of the encounter."

Agreed.
Which is why I haven't directly responded to you before- there's nothing there for me to argue with.

[Killer Cyborg]

Sorry to say SUB but on a battlefield when you are moving, you simply aren't going to have cover 100% of the time. To think so is ignorant and naive. Play any modern FPS and try to stay under cover all the time when approaching an enemy, it doesn't happen, play some paint ball, it doesn't happen. Better yet, join the military as a ground ponder and do some combat drills. Guess what? You don't have total cover all the time. When you move from cover to cover you will be exposed, a harder target, but still the chance is there for the enemy to get a shot in.

Exactly.

[Subjugator]

Subjugator,

Please run it with 2-4 competent veterans role-players and post your results.

WildWalker

I'll only do it with confirmable results (meaning a GM from here and players from here), otherwise it'll be just as invalid as anyone else's postings. I'm rather tired of the argument anyway - the same things have been said again and again.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

You're assuming that the "plenty of cover" in the scenario means "Plenty of complete cover for 10' tall power armor.
He was assuming that the amount of cover varied, which is the more logical assumption.

It's not cover if it's ineffective for them. I'm sure the amount of cover varies, but the amount of cover for them is ample...otherwise, it needn't be mentioned.

I tend to think that if the scenario was designed for the SAMs to have complete cover until they were in melee range, the scenario would have started them off in melee to begin with.

I'm not assuming constant and complete cover until in melee range, but definitely enough to let them close in for the kill without being wasted.

/Sub

[Killer Cyborg]

You're assuming that the "plenty of cover" in the scenario means "Plenty of complete cover for 10' tall power armor.
He was assuming that the amount of cover varied, which is the more logical assumption.

It's not cover if it's ineffective for them.

Yeah, it is.
That's why RUE has rules for making Called Shots at people behind cover.

I'm sure the amount of cover varies, but the amount of cover for them is ample...otherwise, it needn't be mentioned.

All the scenario indicates is that they have things that they can hid behind, to a point, here and there.
Much different than you're describing.

I tend to think that if the scenario was designed for the SAMs to have complete cover until they were in melee range, the scenario would have started them off in melee to begin with.

I'm not assuming constant and complete cover until in melee range, but definitely enough to let them close in for the kill without being wasted.
/Sub

Why are you assuming that?

[TechnoGothic]

That was the FIRST time we played it out.
We played it out 3 more times. Each time, the GB would be this or something like it. The Samas once got within 4000 ft. Shot the GB with a mini-missile but still did not last past 1 minute In-Game time.
I was sure the Samas would do better.

You did several things that render this irrelevant to me:

1. You did not play it in a manner that is subject to confirmation (i.e. a neutral third party from the boards GMing it).
2. The SAMs did not remain in cover from the moment they detected a GB.
3. Going by your description, the GB was played as intelligently as possible. The SAMs were not.
4. The GI Joe rule was ignored.

/Sub

Umm. I was for the SAMAS winning the fight. I honestly thought they could do it.

1. huh???. Dude noone is nuetral, so this makes no sense.
2. They Tried to remain in cover. The did not figure on taking cover from sniper fire from on high ground. So the Player having his character act without Player knowledge is a bonus.
3. Both tried to play it safe as best they could. Without using Player Knowledge.
4. GI JOE RULE !?!?! Dude you just lost all crediblity. That rule is STUPID, I refuse to use it as would any intelligent Player or GM. I'm not playing/running a Cartoon made for children. The Extra MDC over whats needed KILLS the character, simple. SAMAS does not have a Pilot Comparent. The GB does adds +110 MDC to the 770 MDC of the PA when deciding if the pilot is killed. SAMAS is S.O.L..

But You seem to be only concerned the SAMAS lost. Hey I thought they would win too.
The GB rolled very well, the SAMAS did not.Thats the roll of the dice. And this is what it all boils down to. HOW WELL THEY ROLL. You can try to set up a 100% win case all you want. I do not care. It comes down to the dice and the dice similed on the GB here. The SAMAS were not making their Detect Ambush skills. i'm not going to hand-wave the detection to them. Since they did not know where the attack was going to come from they acted logically. Stay Low, keep moving on foot so as to take cover once fired apon. Did not work out great for them.
FYI, the second time, the SAMAS player tried to stay moving while flying with his men. Still didnt work out for them. In that one, the GB took 300 MDC damage however before he won with several great rolls in a row.
The Last two times, we switched the players around. SAMAS tried to keep it fast and mobile. Which in the urban eviroment meant poor manivuerablity without slowing down to turn. GB picked them off FAST without getting hit once.But the GB used up around 60 shots of his 100 round (Old School RIFTS). None of his shot did less that 90 damage however. Player did not make called shots either due to their fast flying.

That is a garbage way to determine cover. Do you honestly think a person cannot tell that they are eight feet tall standing behind a two foot tall shrubbery?

They dived behind building walls/rubble. It just did not cover the as they wished from an attack from above on Highground.

/Sub

Cover was used by the Samas and GB. Just did not do the Samas much good from a oppent up on the 5th Story of a building shooting downwards.

As gm I ranomly rolled 1d4 to see how much cover they each had taken.
GB rolled a 4 "total cover" in Darkness, etc...
Sam 1 rolled 1 "no cover" got his head blown off.
Sam 2 rolled 3 "3/4 cover". His Arm and weapon had no cover. Which the GB shot off.
Same 3 rolled 4 "total cover". GB could not see him, and would need to move his position to try and see him. That Sam decided "screw this...retreat."

Very logical fighting with no backup to come in and help.

That is a garbage way to determine cover. Do you honestly think a person cannot tell that they are eight feet tall standing behind a two foot tall shrubbery?

/Sub

You're assuming that the "plenty of cover" in the scenario means "Plenty of complete cover for 10' tall power armor.
He was assuming that the amount of cover varied, which is the more logical assumption.

I tend to think that if the scenario was designed for the SAMs to have complete cover until they were in melee range, the scenario would have started them off in melee to begin with.

Yepp. Sub is assuming the SAMAS have 100% cover at all times. While the GB does not.
Sub just let the Dice roll as they will and stop trying to turn this in a SAMAS must win case. Because it is what you sound like right now. The only way the SAMAS will have 100% at all times is to fly down in the Storm Sewers tunnels.

[TechnoGothic]

Another possibility to consider is running this scenario featuring more than one of the Glitter Boy and/or SAMAS types. The playing field might change a bit if it were the Glitter Boy No.7 or Mutants in Orbit GB with the particle beam cannon that does 4D6X10 damage per shot!

Hehehe. After we did our 4 playtests using Classics. Which the GB won btw to my surprise.
We tried the Match using the GB-7 from SA2. Umm yeah, that GB did not last long. Both have railguns with equal range. GB-7 took the hits from Mini-missiles. Torn him up good. His gattling rail gun took out only one Samas. Did it 4 times, same every time. Lack of range did him in and he ran out of rounds. The Laser was not much help really which was a surprise for me. I thought the GB-7 was a gang good model.

Next we tried GB MK IV vs 2 SF SAMAS and a Super Samas.
Tied. Two Win each. Each time the GB lost was due to using up his 20 shot payload. Then it was over fast. If he could hit them, it took them out very well. A Natural 20 took out a SF-Samas in one hit. ROlled max damage, doubled. Owww. 4d6x10=240 x2 = 480 mdc. Very lucky shot.

[Shark_Force]

while the SAMAS may not have been able to get perfect cover all the time, i question that they would have been sitting in the open for 2 attacks (the amount of time it takes for the glitterboy to get a called shot off). sure, the GB might have gotten a shot off on the main body doing just a regular attack, but a called shot to the head? not a chance. and also, while the SAMAS may not have perfect cover all the time, they can still quite definitely tell when they are standing behind something that only covers their shins. no, they wouldn't have full cover all the time, especially if they're not sure at first where their opponent is. but having mostly full cover most of the time should be very possible; there's tons of buildings, some collapsed, some not, that they can move up behind, and they *do* know the general direction of their opponent. all they have to do is hug the side of the cover that is on the side opposite their opponent. given they are moving at 60 mph and the GB doesn't know when they'll start moving, getting a called shot to the head off is just not plausible. i do agree that a regular shot, to the main body, would have been possible while the SAMAS is running between cover, but i also think that the SAMAS could easily make it hard for the GB to spot them, just as much as the GB can make it hard for the SAMAS to spot it. in fact, i wouldn't consider it an improbable outcome if both the SAMAS and the GB never even find each other before the stated 10 minute timeframe of reinforcements arriving.

additionally, getting a bonus to dodge for being in the middle of a leap while being shot at is stupid. you don't get a bonus to dodge for being *less* able to maneuver, and being in the middle of a leap means you have a very clearly defined trajectory which isn't going to change unless you hit the jets and start flying. again, these rules are intended to provide a reasonable facsimile of reality; if something makes absolutely no sense, you are probably not understanding it correctly.

and again, this does not address the fact that the GB seemingly became weightless and somehow reached the 5th floor of the building not only without falling through the floor, but without creating a huge, highly visible dust cloud billowing out of the building.

[Killer Cyborg]

while the SAMAS may not have been able to get perfect cover all the time, i question that they would have been sitting in the open for 2 attacks (the amount of time it takes for the glitterboy to get a called shot off). sure, the GB might have gotten a shot off on the main body doing just a regular attack, but a called shot to the head? not a chance.

Agreed, for the most part.
There would be A chance, but nothing you should count on.

[jaymz]

No offense but the above scenario wasn't played tactically at all. Now was it portrayed properly.

Again the first shot the GB takes gives away his postion, no more sniping or surprise attacks. The first attack to the head could have been made IF the Sams were actually dumb enough to actually be marching down the street the way it was described. I don't think even Coalition pilots are THAT dumb. They 'd have the general idea of where he was. He can get THAt far in the few minutes they had to get ther without him exposing hmself to radar. Logically the last known signal woudl be the general area he is in. They woudl have been a helluva lot more cautious than they were. That alone essentially negate the GB's sniping position and I wont get into my opinion how he managed to get to where he was without causing any kind of cave in. Or why the sams woudlnt immeditely pepper the big dust cloud that was created with mini missiels....may not hit him but sure as hell would seriously mess up his secure position on a rickety floor in 400 year old wether worn building

[Shark_Force]

This thread has been going back and forth for a while now, has any one played this out yet.

not properly.

[dark brandon]

This thread has been going back and forth for a while now, has any one played this out yet.

not properly.

Senarios will differ. You're never going to get a straight answer because their isn't one. Some can see how a GB can take 3 SAMAS, others see how 3 SAMAS can take a GB.

I think the best way, the only way to work this out is to view only the numbers. A GB has range and damage, but samas have 3x the attacks which allows options to dodge (GB can dodge, but that in the end costs him, he needs to be offensive). Given each SAMAS requires 3 shots from the boom gun to go down (requiring a total of 9 shots on average), and it will on average take 9 shots from the SAMAS to bring down a boom-gun, you're looking at a pretty balanced fight.

[Subjugator]

Yeah, it is.
That's why RUE has rules for making Called Shots at people behind cover.

Then that would be effective cover, would it not?

All the scenario indicates is that they have things that they can hid behind, to a point, here and there.
Much different than you're describing.

The scenario indicates ample cover. Ample means plenty of.

Why are you assuming that?

Because ample cover was the description given.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

4. GI JOE RULE !?!?! Dude you just lost all crediblity. That rule is STUPID, I refuse to use it as would any intelligent Player or GM. I'm not playing/running a Cartoon made for children. The Extra MDC over whats needed KILLS the character, simple. SAMAS does not have a Pilot Comparent. The GB does adds +110 MDC to the 770 MDC of the PA when deciding if the pilot is killed. SAMAS is S.O.L..

Dude - let me say it for you slowly:

Rules. As. Written.

We didn't say, "Rules as TechnoGothic likes them." If you want to ignore a rule, get consensus first.

But You seem to be only concerned the SAMAS lost. Hey I thought they would win too.

I'm not concerned about it.

The GB rolled very well, the SAMAS did not.Thats the roll of the dice. And this is what it all boils down to. HOW WELL THEY ROLL. You can try to set up a 100% win case all you want. I do not care. It comes down to the dice and the dice similed on the GB here. The SAMAS were not making their Detect Ambush skills. i'm not going to hand-wave the detection to them. Since they did not know where the attack was going to come from they acted logically. Stay Low, keep moving on foot so as to take cover once fired apon. Did not work out great for them.
FYI, the second time, the SAMAS player tried to stay moving while flying with his men. Still didnt work out for them. In that one, the GB took 300 MDC damage however before he won with several great rolls in a row.
The Last two times, we switched the players around. SAMAS tried to keep it fast and mobile. Which in the urban eviroment meant poor manivuerablity without slowing down to turn. GB picked them off FAST without getting hit once.But the GB used up around 60 shots of his 100 round (Old School RIFTS). None of his shot did less that 90 damage however. Player did not make called shots either due to their fast flying.

He's got 1,000 shots - old school was a typo. It's still the original GB with 1,000 shots. I'd also like to see this done in a confirmable manner.

They dived behind building walls/rubble. It just did not cover the as they wished from an attack from above on Highground.

They should've been more intelligent about the cover they sought or the way they used it.

You're assuming that the "plenty of cover" in the scenario means "Plenty of complete cover for 10' tall power armor.
He was assuming that the amount of cover varied, which is the more logical assumption.

If there is plenty of cover, then there's plenty of effective cover, otherwise there is no reason to so much as mention it.

Yepp. Sub is assuming the SAMAS have 100% cover at all times. While the GB does not.
Sub just let the Dice roll as they will and stop trying to turn this in a SAMAS must win case. Because it is what you sound like right now. The only way the SAMAS will have 100% at all times is to fly down in the Storm Sewers tunnels.

No I am not assuming that. I am assuming 100% cover about 80% of the time, while the GB can have similar cover if he wishes, but that he's unlikely to want it.

/Sub

[Killer Cyborg]

Yeah, it is.
That's why RUE has rules for making Called Shots at people behind cover.

Then that would be effective cover, would it not?

Tell it to Palladium.

All the scenario indicates is that they have things that they can hid behind, to a point, here and there.
Much different than you're describing.

The scenario indicates ample cover. Ample means plenty of.

Plenty /= Ideal In Every Way.

There might be plenty of cover to hide behind that's spaced dozens of yards apart.
There might be plenty of cover to hide behind, but none of it large enough to hide the entire suit of power armor.

Go play paintball a few times.
There's plenty of cover on a speedball field, but that doesn't mean there's enough cover to reach the enemy without them getting a good shot off at you.
Or even necessarily to reach the next piece of cover.

[Killer Cyborg]

This thread has been going back and forth for a while now, has any one played this out yet.

not properly.

Senarios will differ. You're never going to get a straight answer because their isn't one. Some can see how a GB can take 3 SAMAS, others see how 3 SAMAS can take a GB.

I think the best way, the only way to work this out is to view only the numbers. A GB has range and damage, but samas have 3x the attacks which allows options to dodge (GB can dodge, but that in the end costs him, he needs to be offensive). Given each SAMAS requires 3 shots from the boom gun to go down (requiring a total of 9 shots on average), and it will on average take 9 shots from the SAMAS to bring down a boom-gun, you're looking at a pretty balanced fight.

Except you can't make Called Shots with railguns or mini-missiles.

[Killer Cyborg]

This thread has been going back and forth for a while now, has any one played this out yet.

not properly.

Without a map, there is no proper way to play it.
The battle depends on the terrain.

[Killer Cyborg]

Additional Thoughts:
1. The GB can blow away pieces of cover whether or not there's a SAMAS behind it, destroying cover before they get to it or reducing its effectiveness.
2. If the SAMs start off flying (and leaping, for the one with the malfunction), that would give the GB potentially a free shot at them before they go to ground, IF he wins initiative or if they don't know he's there.

[Subjugator]

Plenty /= Ideal In Every Way.

There might be plenty of cover to hide behind that's spaced dozens of yards apart.
There might be plenty of cover to hide behind, but none of it large enough to hide the entire suit of power armor.

Go play paintball a few times.
There's plenty of cover on a speedball field, but that doesn't mean there's enough cover to reach the enemy without them getting a good shot off at you.
Or even necessarily to reach the next piece of cover.

Once again, I never once said he'd never get a shot off at them. I never once said it was ideal in every way.

Go play paintball? Dude, I was sponsored (amateur) for two or three years (I sucked, but the guys on the team and the sponsor (the inventor of constant air paintball guns) liked me, so I was a bit of a hanger on, but I was sponsored). I've played a LOT of paintball.

Ultimately though, please don't add to the words I've used.

/Sub

P.S. If I'm a bit terse today or in the next few days, I apologize. I'm on heavy drugs due to a serious attack of gout.