Disentegration vs Invulnerability and/or Natural AR

[SoulofThunder]

I needed some opinions on whether the Disintegration ignores Natural AR and hurt invulnerable characters. Seems to me that if it's breaking down molecular bonds is should be able to. this isn't explicitly stated though.

[Reagren Wright]

HU G.M. Guide (page 216) says particle beam weapons inflict 1/2 damage against
Invulnerable people. Since PBW only cause damage on dice rolls of 11-17 (1D6x10) and full
damage on 18-20 (1D6x10+40). Objects destroyed or people killed by PB are disintergrated!
Since these weapons effect objects on a molecular level armor rating is immaterial. So I
would says the disintergrate power from PU 1 is like all PBW, the beam automatically by-
pass the A.R. of a target, including all Natural Armor Ratings. So I would say invulnerable
people also take 1/2 damage.

[NMI]

HU G.M. Guide (page 216) says particle beam weapons inflict 1/2 damage against
Invulnerable people. Since PBW only cause damage on dice rolls of 11-17 (1D6x10) and full
damage on 18-20 (1D6x10+40). Objects destroyed or people killed by PB are disintergrated!
Since these weapons effect objects on a molecular level armor rating is immaterial. So I
would says the disintergrate power from PU 1 is like all PBW, the beam automatically by-
pass the A.R. of a target, including all Natural Armor Ratings. So I would say invulnerable
people also take 1/2 damage.

I am NMI and I agree with this comment!

[SoulofThunder]

HU G.M. Guide (page 216) says particle beam weapons inflict 1/2 damage against
Invulnerable people. Since PBW only cause damage on dice rolls of 11-17 (1D6x10) and full
damage on 18-20 (1D6x10+40). Objects destroyed or people killed by PB are disintergrated!
Since these weapons effect objects on a molecular level armor rating is immaterial. So I
would says the disintergrate power from PU 1 is like all PBW, the beam automatically by-
pass the A.R. of a target, including all Natural Armor Ratings. So I would say invulnerable
people also take 1/2 damage.

[Steeler49er]

Supers with "Invulnerablity" have ALWAYS been impervious to energy attacks of all kinds... Partical beam weapons included! This has Never been indispute untill now, and since it is only now being assumed to affect Invulnerable beings simply because it would then open you up to harming Invulnerable supers with the Disintigration power, that shows personal agenda.

It is well known how many peeps have had issue with the absolute-ness of the Invulnerability and have taken up a banner against it, but there are Two effects you get from P-Beam attacks: One is Electrical attacks which "effect objects on a molecular level" just like partical beams, and second are Kinetic attack "Shread you" just like the Other aspect of Partical attacks. Considering Invulnerability makes you, Invulnerable to both those two attacks, so it does with partical beam attacks.



Whether or not Disintgration affects someone who is Invulnerable can still be in dispute, but not by using the Partical Beam argument... Cuz if you do then you'll just end up varifing that Invulnerability IS impervious to the Disintigration power as much as it is Imperviouse to Partical beams.

[NMI]

Supers with "Invulnerablity" have ALWAYS been impervious to energy attacks of all kinds... Partical beam weapons included! This has Never been indispute untill now, and since it is only now being assumed to affect Invulnerable beings simply because it would then open you up to harming Invulnerable supers with the Disintigration power, that shows personal agenda.

It is well known how many peeps have had issue with the absolute-ness of the Invulnerability and have taken up a banner against it, but there are Two effects you get from P-Beam attacks: One is Electrical attacks which "effect objects on a molecular level" just like partical beams, and second are Kinetic attack "Shread you" just like the Other aspect of Partical attacks. Considering Invulnerability makes you, Invulnerable to both those two attacks, so it does with partical beam attacks.



Whether or not Disintgration affects someone who is Invulnerable can still be in dispute, but not by using the Partical Beam argument... Cuz if you do then you'll just end up varifing that Invulnerability IS impervious to the Disintigration power as much as it is Imperviouse to Partical beams.

Actually Particle Beam weapons has been shown in writing, official material to affect Invulnerable characters via half-damage. This was in ... arrgh, I forget which book.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Supers with "Invulnerablity" have ALWAYS been impervious to energy attacks of all kinds... Partical beam weapons included! This has Never been indispute untill now, and since it is only now being assumed to affect Invulnerable beings simply because it would then open you up to harming Invulnerable supers with the Disintigration power, that shows personal agenda.

It is well known how many peeps have had issue with the absolute-ness of the Invulnerability and have taken up a banner against it, but there are Two effects you get from P-Beam attacks: One is Electrical attacks which "effect objects on a molecular level" just like partical beams, and second are Kinetic attack "Shread you" just like the Other aspect of Partical attacks. Considering Invulnerability makes you, Invulnerable to both those two attacks, so it does with partical beam attacks.



Whether or not Disintgration affects someone who is Invulnerable can still be in dispute, but not by using the Partical Beam argument... Cuz if you do then you'll just end up varifing that Invulnerability IS impervious to the Disintigration power as much as it is Imperviouse to Partical beams.

Actually Particle Beam weapons has been shown in writing, official material to affect Invulnerable characters via half-damage. This was in ... arrgh, I forget which book.

It's in the HU GMG. on page 216 under the Particle Beam Rifle. The Very last sentance in the section says: "Note: Particle Beams damage even Invunerable characters, but at half damage"

[NMI]

Supers with "Invulnerablity" have ALWAYS been impervious to energy attacks of all kinds... Partical beam weapons included! This has Never been indispute untill now, and since it is only now being assumed to affect Invulnerable beings simply because it would then open you up to harming Invulnerable supers with the Disintigration power, that shows personal agenda.

It is well known how many peeps have had issue with the absolute-ness of the Invulnerability and have taken up a banner against it, but there are Two effects you get from P-Beam attacks: One is Electrical attacks which "effect objects on a molecular level" just like partical beams, and second are Kinetic attack "Shread you" just like the Other aspect of Partical attacks. Considering Invulnerability makes you, Invulnerable to both those two attacks, so it does with partical beam attacks.



Whether or not Disintgration affects someone who is Invulnerable can still be in dispute, but not by using the Partical Beam argument... Cuz if you do then you'll just end up varifing that Invulnerability IS impervious to the Disintigration power as much as it is Imperviouse to Partical beams.

Actually Particle Beam weapons has been shown in writing, official material to affect Invulnerable characters via half-damage. This was in ... arrgh, I forget which book.

It's in the HU GMG. on page 216 under the Particle Beam Rifle. The Very last sentance in the section says: "Note: Particle Beams damage even Invunerable characters, but at half damage"

Thank you!
Particle/ Ion Beams are also mentioned affecting Invulnerable characters in Aliens Unlimited - under the section for S.H.O.C.K. Prime - Mobile Headquarters - #9 Holding Cell

[drewkitty ~..~]

Incidentally, every time I read the Disintegration ability, I want to make a Super Invention with it built into the edge of a sword.

Am I the only one?

You could still put in the danger to yourself part, you roll a 1 and you probably clipped yourself with it.

Self inflicted wounds via a nat 1 are only possible if the user does not have a WP.
More likely the sword dis's itself and the wielder is left with just the hilt.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Incidentally, every time I read the Disintegration ability, I want to make a Super Invention with it built into the edge of a sword.

Am I the only one?

You could still put in the danger to yourself part, you roll a 1 and you probably clipped yourself with it.

Self inflicted wounds via a nat 1 are only possible if the user does not have a WP

Where's the rule for that?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Incidentally, every time I read the Disintegration ability, I want to make a Super Invention with it built into the edge of a sword.

Am I the only one?

You could still put in the danger to yourself part, you roll a 1 and you probably clipped yourself with it.

Self inflicted wounds via a nat 1 are only possible if the user does not have a WP

Where's the rule for that?

Max was referencing the crit. fail for a nat one roll.
Like the "crit. fail", the "if you have a WP your crit. fails don't do yourself damage" is unwritten.
It comes down to training, those that have the training are not going avoid the worst case because they they are trained so it won't happen.

Where the novice/virgin weapons wielder will not have that training, so attacking in ways that could turn on their rear have not been trained out of them.

Example: (a virgin submachine-gun wielder) In the last episode of Macross plus, Myun fires a SMG at Sharon Apple and the bullets go all over the place because she didn't know how to deal with the recoil.

[side note: recently here on the boards I saw someone referencing where the Nat one auto-fail is. but I don't remember them listing a book, page, paragraph location.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Incidentally, every time I read the Disintegration ability, I want to make a Super Invention with it built into the edge of a sword.

Am I the only one?

You could still put in the danger to yourself part, you roll a 1 and you probably clipped yourself with it.

Self inflicted wounds via a nat 1 are only possible if the user does not have a WP

Where's the rule for that?

Max was referencing the crit. fail for a nat one roll.
Like the "crit. fail", the "if you have a WP your crit. fails don't do yourself damage" is unwritten.
It comes down to training, those that have the training are not going avoid the worst case because they they are trained so it won't happen.

Where the novice/virgin weapons wielder will not have that training, so attacking in ways that could turn on their rear have not been trained out of them.

Example: (a virgin submachine-gun wielder) In the last episode of Macross plus, Myun fires a SMG at Sharon Apple and the bullets go all over the place because she didn't know how to deal with the recoil.

[side note: recently here on the boards I saw someone referencing where the Nat one auto-fail is. but I don't remember them listing a book, page, paragraph location.

It's in RUE.

[drewkitty ~..~]

[

[side note: recently here on the boards I saw someone referencing where the Nat one auto-fail is. but I don't remember them listing a book, page, paragraph location.

It's in RUE.

hint

-----------------------------

Also, you did notice this is the HU forum. RUE only applies to other settings as much or little [or not at all], as GMs want.

[KillWatch]

WOW the utterly senseless nerfing of invulnerability continues. PLEASE the power does ONE thing and not all that UTter either. Use magic, Use Psionics, Gas Attacks, Drown them geebus. It seems to me that there aren't enough people playing mages or psychics or be creative. TIE THEM UP.


For every caveat that we add in to hurt those who are invulnerable simply lowers the average intelligence level of the player populace

Invulnerability allows a being to be completely invulnerable to physical harm (other than magic)
If it isn't magic (or some psionics) then it just doesn't hurt

Most of the other majors have many different aspects that allow them to do many different things
Even some of the minors are multi faceted
dumbing down invulnerability is just stupid and wrong

Instead of trying to be a class that can hurt them or thinking around an obstacle, lets take the easy route to allows us to play mutants or experiments without consequences
Hell aliens, and special trainings, cyborgs etc are assumed to be intelligent, creative, highly trained, thinking classes.

[Captain Shiva]

WOW the utterly senseless nerfing of invulnerability continues. PLEASE the power does ONE thing and not all that UTter either. Use magic, Use Psionics, Gas Attacks, Drown them geebus. It seems to me that there aren't enough people playing mages or psychics or be creative. TIE THEM UP.


For every caveat that we add in to hurt those who are invulnerable simply lowers the average intelligence level of the player populace

Invulnerability allows a being to be completely invulnerable to physical harm (other than magic)
If it isn't magic (or some psionics) then it just doesn't hurt

Most of the other majors have many different aspects that allow them to do many different things
Even some of the minors are multi faceted
dumbing down invulnerability is just stupid and wrong

Instead of trying to be a class that can hurt them or thinking around an obstacle, lets take the easy route to allows us to play mutants or experiments without consequences
Hell aliens, and special trainings, cyborgs etc are assumed to be intelligent, creative, highly trained, thinking classes.

What if you did this: any time a character takes Invulnerability,make them also take 1d4 weaknesses, against which the power does not protect.These could be as commonplace as fire,to as rare as a radioactive mineral from another planet.And to be really mean,keep them secret from the player at first.

[Reagren Wright]

Its half damage people . And the gun only works on a dice roll of 11-17 which is a
nick and 17 and higher. If your make an Invulnerable character and all the bad guys have
PBW talk to your G.M.

[Nekira Sudacne]

[

[side note: recently here on the boards I saw someone referencing where the Nat one auto-fail is. but I don't remember them listing a book, page, paragraph location.

It's in RUE.

hint

-----------------------------

Also, you did notice this is the HU forum. RUE only applies to other settings as much or little [or not at all], as GMs want.

I noticed, but It's the only reference anywhere, and I know many GM's who play Megaversally.

So, I was more referencing the rule that Max Mentioned. Just because you don't like the answer dosn't mean it's invalid.

[NMI]

come on people.... play nice

[drewkitty ~..~]

I noticed, but It's the only reference anywhere, and I know many GM's who play Megaversally.

So, I was more referencing the rule that Max Mentioned. Just because you don't like the answer dosn't mean it's invalid.

And it is nice to let someone know where it is when they indicate they would like someone to post it. So I'll be blunt instead of hinting at it.

What page of RUE is the said text is on? And What paragraph of the page is it in?

[KillWatch]

Invulnerability already has weaknesses;
-Gases
-Drowning
-Magic Spells
-Magic Weapons
-Psionics
-Choke Outs
-Pins
-Darkness

if you actually want to hurt them then you might have problems, but if you just want to capture then you got plenty of options

mr invulnerable will die like anyone else if you incapacitate him, tie him up, tie him to something heavy and toss him off a pier

[Nekira Sudacne]

I noticed, but It's the only reference anywhere, and I know many GM's who play Megaversally.

So, I was more referencing the rule that Max Mentioned. Just because you don't like the answer dosn't mean it's invalid.

And it is nice to let someone know where it is when they indicate they would like someone to post it. So I'll be blunt instead of hinting at it.

What page of RUE is the said text is on? And What paragraph of the page is it in?

Settle down Drewkitty. I was just trying to answer for Max who tends to be fairly slow in responding off of SO. I don't know why your jumping on my case.

and it's page 346 under Miss.

[drewkitty ~..~]

and it's page 346 under Miss.

Yep, that is the auto-miss rule.

But it says nothing about being a critical miss. Which is why I said any thing about critical misses is unwritten. along with the "If you have the WP for the weapon you are using, then your critical miss will be less severe then for those w/o the WP for the weapon they are using" is also unwritten.

defining the words as I'm using them:
Auto-Miss: when rolling a natural One the attack automatically misses no mater what bonuses the char may have.

Critical Miss: when rolling a Natural One having an auto-fail and the GM imposes a "Bad Thing" to the player, such as the firearm jamming, the E-clip blowing up, the e-clip or magazine falling out of the weapon, the fusion block sticking to the hand after setting the timer, the weapons breaking, etc...

[Steeler49er]

Its half damage people . And the gun only works on a dice roll of 11-17 which is a
nick and 17 and higher. If your make an Invulnerable character and all the bad guys have
PBW talk to your G.M.

Having a SMILY dismissively rolling it's eyes is condesending enough, but to boot, You missed the point by miles RW!The point is that this is a MAJOR canon change. The to hit is Not 11-17, it is 11-17 for THAT PARTICULAR PARTICAL BEAM WEAPON... For those of us that play in game like Rift, Phase World, Skrapers, & Robotech, Partical Beams generally HIT and kill you. And for many of us we have had advanced future (MDC) tech make it into HUL, where ½ of 10MD is 5 MD... or for you that is 500SDC...

In otherwords, ½ of DEAD is still DEAD. All your dismissive arguements are about Down playing the shear level of impact this little Gem has on the game. We have all been playing the game One way for decades and have been shot (for those of us that had the power in question) Many times by Part-Beam weapons and had not once been injured, and now we're being told that it does a Whooping 50% damage!
Not 1%, 2%, 5%, 10%, 25% or 30% but 50%!
Going from 0% to 50% is a HUGE leap cuz this Ain't a small thing anymore.
I know in Yours and others heads that ½ damage sounds like a small thing but this Ain't ½ & ½ Milk, it is damage that can KILL you Dead. For THIS RULE to have been hidden away in one book in one small blurp is annoying enough, but for the damage to go from nothing ½ of Full is absurd, thoughtless, and rude.


Listen, we all know the power has been Over-powered from when it first appeared in the books, but to have a person with a bug up their BLANK, go and get such a long standing pre-existing thing changed w/o consideration to the customer/player/GM base is very up-setting to say the least.




KillWatch & Captain Shiva have it right...This IS senceless nerfing and it Should have been done Much earlier in HU history with what Captain Shiva suggested

Spoiler:

What if you did this: any time a character takes Invulnerability,make them also take 1d4 weaknesses, against which the power does not protect.These could be as commonplace as fire,to as rare as a radioactive mineral from another planet.And to be really mean,keep them secret from the player at first.

[NMI]

Play nice.
If you are being affected emotionally by this thread or the opinions of others in this thread, then I suggest you take a break.

[Steeler49er]

Invulnerability already has weaknesses;
-Gases
-Drowning
-Magic Spells
-Magic Weapons
-Psionics
-Choke Outs
-Pins
-Darkness

if you actually want to hurt them then you might have problems, but if you just want to capture then you got plenty of options

mr invulnerable will die like anyone else if you incapacitate him, tie him up, tie him to something heavy and toss him off a pier

Carpet of Adhesion, anyone?
KillWatch is right on. We shouldn't have to "dumb down" powers just to get around them. What ever happened to creativity? Ok, so, the big bad ugly dude has Invulnerability. So what? You can't just invent new weaknesses for the power just because you aren't creative enough to get around it. In fact, read the following topic: Hot Topic

AMEN Kenndey...
Well said and Thank you for standing up for Killswitch and Commonsence at the same time! You rock!



And no NMI, Im fine now, I just wanted to point-out to RW that this Isn't sound-off and that such dismissive comments Are not polite (however you spell that word) and I got a little heated. Sorry, I will try and cap my attitude and leave it at the door.

[Steeler49er]

????And When did we get the 'Quick Reply' option???
I'm gone fer a week and POW, we get Quick-Resp.
cool

[drewkitty ~..~]

????And When did we get the 'Quick Reply' option???
I'm gone fer a week and POW, we get Quick-Resp.
cool

Saturday afternoon.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I think I'm going to disagree with you on this one. Yes, training provides you with the ability to fire/use the weapon better than the average joe schmuck on the street. But that doesn't mean you can't hurt yourself with it if you roll a natural 1. The best example I can give is that you could potentially drop the weapon, and it goes off, hitting you. That would qualify as getting hurt on a natural 1.

Think of it this way: Can you use a hammer? Are you proficient with it? Are you exempt from it hitting your foot if you drop it just because you can use it?

The example you gave is an example of an Evil GM, or a freak axe'ident.
I never said that those with WP's never have crit fails, What I said was that those with WPs' crit fails are less sever then those w/o the WP. And Less severe can mean less frequent also.

However....... If you have an EVIL GM , it's not going to matter one bit if he is itching to get at your char.

---------

Who is more likely to hit themselves with a hammer (in chances for each swing), a computer programer or a Carpenter?

The Comp Prog'er is more likely to hit themselves. They do not have the experience in handling hammers that Carpenters do.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Its half damage people . And the gun only works on a dice roll of 11-17 which is a
nick and 17 and higher. If your make an Invulnerable character and all the bad guys have
PBW talk to your G.M.

Having a SMILY dismissively rolling it's eyes is condesending enough, but to boot, You missed the point by miles RW!The point is that this is a MAJOR canon change. The to hit is Not 11-17, it is 11-17 for THAT PARTICULAR PARTICAL BEAM WEAPON... For those of us that play in game like Rift, Phase World, Skrapers, & Robotech, Partical Beams generally HIT and kill you. And for many of us we have had advanced future (MDC) tech make it into HUL, where ½ of 10MD is 5 MD... or for you that is 500SDC...

The problem is in Skraypers Invunerability grants hundreds of MDC, and any MDC tech that gets into Heros Unlimited actually does SDC equivlent to the MDC conversion 1 to 1, so a 1d4*10 Rifts particle beam does 1d4*10 SDC in heros Unlimited. No more.

[Steeler49er]

Agreed on the issue of Skraypers. That book Needed to deside if it was going to be an MDC or SDC setting from the start, but for many of us here we use strait MD & MDC tech as is when going into 'Other worlds' such as Heroes Unlimited and The Iraq (and such).
We see Hygh tech as Just that, high tech. The need to have Two separate systems going in a 'Universal System' is weird and unneeded. Many of us play it that worlds considered to be 'SDC' worlds, are just low tech enviros (which will become MD tech worlds given time) and MD worlds are just High tech worlds.

As such, we have had 100's of games where MD & MDC tech has made it into so called 'sdc' worlds and the players have had to defeat/take on MD high tech enemies. Oftentimes the tech comes from the same dimension but from outter space (aliens) or maybe from a rare 'Super Invention'. Since 'this' relatively new rule-retcon to Invulnerability is now putting the power (that has always worked One way) into question, you should see why it is both upsetting And annoying and just Shouldn't be. Palladiums Already got a bad reputation for Meta-Plotting and Mega-Munchkin-Power Gaming (despite always claiming to 'dissuade' such behavior), but the "Fairness" retcon is what is Really hurting PB.
I just wish PB would Stop 'Being fair' already.

[KillWatch]

I consider each rifts world setting as a world of it's own, inside a pocket dimension that holds them all.
I think x100 is a bit of a leap
but I allow it for gods and devels etc
however Rifts tech does x10
aliens do x2-x10 depending
energy weapons, well what the hell is the point? I mean if it is goin to do the same as a normal handgun or rifle, albeit a beefy one, why bother? So I dd something like this
Lasers: x2
Ion: x3
PB: x5

[Nekira Sudacne]

Agreed on the issue of Skraypers. That book Needed to deside if it was going to be an MDC or SDC setting from the start, but for many of us here we use strait MD & MDC tech as is when going into 'Other worlds' such as Heroes Unlimited and The Iraq (and such).
We see Hygh tech as Just that, high tech. The need to have Two separate systems going in a 'Universal System' is weird and unneeded. Many of us play it that worlds considered to be 'SDC' worlds, are just low tech enviros (which will become MD tech worlds given time) and MD worlds are just High tech worlds.

As such, we have had 100's of games where MD & MDC tech has made it into so called 'sdc' worlds and the players have had to defeat/take on MD high tech enemies. Oftentimes the tech comes from the same dimension but from outter space (aliens) or maybe from a rare 'Super Invention'. Since 'this' relatively new rule-retcon to Invulnerability is now putting the power (that has always worked One way) into question, you should see why it is both upsetting And annoying and just Shouldn't be. Palladiums Already got a bad reputation for Meta-Plotting and Mega-Munchkin-Power Gaming (despite always claiming to 'dissuade' such behavior), but the "Fairness" retcon is what is Really hurting PB.
I just wish PB would Stop 'Being fair' already.

No, The Aliens Unlimited books clearly shows that in heros Unlimited even Super-High-Ultra Precurser level tech is still SDC.

Megaverse Builder further backs this up by saying that the physical laws in MDC worlds like Rifts are fundamentally different than laws in Heros Unlimited and the toughness and power of MDC materials simply arn't possible to be made.

[Gryphon Chick]

No, The Aliens Unlimited books clearly shows that in heros Unlimited even Super-High-Ultra Precurser level tech is still SDC.

Megaverse Builder further backs this up by saying that the physical laws in MDC worlds like Rifts are fundamentally different than laws in Heros Unlimited and the toughness and power of MDC materials simply arn't possible to be made.

It does say that in multiple sources. I think these guys just like playing it differently. Which is perfectly okay, I just wish they would not force their opinions down everyone's throat when they know how it is written in the books. Frankly, the argument gets a bit tiresome. If they don't like the system, they should just say so and leave it at that rather than argue the system is designed wrong for the way they play. Of course it is, since they do not play it how it is written.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Disintegration has a 1~5% chance of damaging the user if directed at a living target.

5% on a d20 is a 1.

And that is why I said that it would Dis the blade of the Disintegration Super invention sword if said crit. fail happened.
Because the "user" of the Dis power is the super-invention, not the wielder weapon, in this instance.

However, if you have an Evil GM it probably wouldn't matter that it's a super invention of not.

[Steeler49er]

No, The Aliens Unlimited books clearly shows that in heros Unlimited even Super-High-Ultra Precurser level tech is still SDC.

Megaverse Builder further backs this up by saying that the physical laws in MDC worlds like Rifts are fundamentally different than laws in Heros Unlimited and the toughness and power of MDC materials simply arn't possible to be made.

It does say that in multiple sources. I think these guys just like playing it differently. Which is perfectly okay, I just wish they would not force their opinions down everyone's throat when they know how it is written in the books. Frankly, the argument gets a bit tiresome. If they don't like the system, they should just say so and leave it at that rather than argue the system is designed wrong for the way they play. Of course it is, since they do not play it how it is written.

NO YOURSELF NEKIRA... Gryphon Chick saw it right. I am Very much aware of the rules, but Megaversal Builder came out LONG after we had started playing HUL and others such RPG's. As such there is no logical reason to bust the rules cuz they changed to fit illogic, I'm sure that you can simpathize.

And Gryphon, Yes and No... We Are and Are-Not shuving the view down peoples thoats. This IS a free discussion forum and people are free to ignore posts written by I and others by simply skipping over what I write.
Yes I am being pushy to anyone who does reads what I wrote (you have me there, which of course you know) but that is because Palladium Books has proven Time and Time again to be influenced by the court of public opinion, as such it is important for you to realize that When a consessious is reached Here on the forums, Keivn will in time take it under advisement (this is what makes him differant that other companies that do not listen to their customer/player base).

If I can get the logic of my point across than, in time, it is capable of influencing (not always) enough people to make Real Change take place here on the message boards, & thus else where.
This is what has happened several dozen times with rules in the books, players got kevin to changes them, problem is... It's not Always for the best, and I'd like it to Aways be for the best for everyone, not just a Few. So that is why I get forceful with "Rules Prosecutors" (the juxtaposed version of a rules lawyer) from time to time who help push 'bad' rules. If I can change a few peeps minds than this is a good thing.

Hey, 15 years ago I had several dozen posters, like 'Lunar Lama' for one, to contend with all the time. Back then they use to shoot Everyone down who had ideas or who dared to speak up (and out), nowadays the boards are filled with ideas and peeps discussing them with allota less fear of elitests flaming them.

But even if you can't agree with my direction, I'm sure that if you play PB long enough, you'll come to like rules that make sence, and seriously hate it when a few people get that/those rules change because they are power gamers, rules rapists, twinks, munchkins, rules lawyers, who all want endless freedom and klutter up the game with game imbalancing rules. IE: Rules that are not well game tested or thought out, but pushed because of gamer inexperiance (green) and they feel the game needs more 'Boom, Pow, Explosion' to it.

You'll Equally get the otherside of the tracks as in the case of Rules Prosecutors-(the kinda person that forces Bad and ultra restrictive, 'fairness rules' down your throat), and they feel the need to take their bad experiances and restrict everyones rights out of a sence of misplace rightiousness.

PB changes good rules to bad ones, bad rules into really bad rules, and often ignores people with great ideas in lue of the fact that those with bad ideas are more often ore outspoken... The balance is Other people who shout back "no".

[Gryphon Chick]

Well, Steeler, when all is said and done, PB does mess up a LOT, so I can't argue with the validity of your statements. By and large, that is why we have house rules, to counteract and make void those rules we have trouble with.
I am personally of the opinion that particle beams should have SOME effect on invulnerable characters, which is why I am arguing in favor of the rules. Anything that attacks on a molecular level would not be able to be shrugged off so easily. It would, however, fall under SG's EE Soaking skill and the character should be able to shrug off some damage the way we play.
But that falls into how you play according to your house rules.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Well, Steeler, when all is said and done, PB does mess up a LOT, so I can't argue with the validity of your statements. By and large, that is why we have house rules, to counteract and make void those rules we have trouble with.
I am personally of the opinion that particle beams should have SOME effect on invulnerable characters, which is why I am arguing in favor of the rules. Anything that attacks on a molecular level would not be able to be shrugged off so easily. It would, however, fall under SG's EE Soaking skill and the character should be able to shrug off some damage the way we play.
But that falls into how you play according to your house rules.

Yes, we play energy attacks a little differently in my game. If you have a problem with the issue of particle beams potentially killing characters, just make it so particle beams only affect SDC of invulnerable characters and not HP, assuming you can make a compromise in your style of play. Or reduce damage to a level you can live with.

[Gryphon Chick]

Well, Steeler, when all is said and done, PB does mess up a LOT, so I can't argue with the validity of your statements. By and large, that is why we have house rules, to counteract and make void those rules we have trouble with.
I am personally of the opinion that particle beams should have SOME effect on invulnerable characters, which is why I am arguing in favor of the rules. Anything that attacks on a molecular level would not be able to be shrugged off so easily. It would, however, fall under SG's EE Soaking skill and the character should be able to shrug off some damage the way we play.
But that falls into how you play according to your house rules.

Yes, we play energy attacks a little differently in my game. If you have a problem with the issue of particle beams potentially killing characters, just make it so particle beams only affect SDC of invulnerable characters and not HP, assuming you can make a compromise in your style of play. Or reduce damage to a level you can live with.

I agree. SOME effect does not necessarily have to be half or have the potential to be deadly.

[Stone Gargoyle]

You see, there are other possibilities than using the rule or not using the rule.

[NMI]

relax EVERYONE!
Let's not allow this thread to get as heated as the -10 Dodge rule or other such heated and emotional debates.

[Nekira Sudacne]

No, The Aliens Unlimited books clearly shows that in heros Unlimited even Super-High-Ultra Precurser level tech is still SDC.

Megaverse Builder further backs this up by saying that the physical laws in MDC worlds like Rifts are fundamentally different than laws in Heros Unlimited and the toughness and power of MDC materials simply arn't possible to be made.

It does say that in multiple sources. I think these guys just like playing it differently. Which is perfectly okay, I just wish they would not force their opinions down everyone's throat when they know how it is written in the books. Frankly, the argument gets a bit tiresome. If they don't like the system, they should just say so and leave it at that rather than argue the system is designed wrong for the way they play. Of course it is, since they do not play it how it is written.

NO YOURSELF NEKIRA... Gryphon Chick saw it right. I am Very much aware of the rules, but Megaversal Builder came out LONG after we had started playing HUL and others such RPG's. As such there is no logical reason to bust the rules cuz they changed to fit illogic, I'm sure that you can simpathize.

Actually, I already figured what Gryphon chick did, no need to flame me for it. However, the least you could do is if you know the rules say otherwise, than SAY you do. What you were doing is presenting your houserules as if that was the way it actually supposed to be done, which it isn't, and it needs to be corrected so any newcomers or other people on the forums (They are here ya know) don't read the thread and get the wrong idea. I actually tend to be one of the regulars on the Q&A forums and I can't tell you how many newcomers i've seen read posts like yours then have to make another thread asking which way it goes because it confuses the people who don't know any better. Your not just writing to me, or to palladium, your writing to every single people on these forums and not everyone knows the rules as well as longtimers like you and I.

[KillWatch]

1) Palldium REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY needs a new Monsters and Animals book, I mean isn't that where d20 makes a LOT of money from MM1-1billion. The art is effing terrible, and honestly, when I was playing D&D 2ed long ago, I kept wandering to the back of Royal Hobby and checking out the other games, and Palladium looked interesting, but the thing that kept holding me back was the sub pr, even then, art of themonsters and animals book. Is it cost? the amount needed for artists and new art? I know palladium usually uses and resuses art, and usually not bad. But M&A seems like the dumping ground

2) MDC Heroes:
a) If you want to run REAL mega heroes, USE MDC stats for them in an SDC world
b) So rifts/hu is broken, no continuity there? Because, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the SDC setting suppose to be the progenator of the MDC world? If so then where the hell did it come from. I want a canon answer if they have canon "reason" why SDC worlds can't develop MDC items, ESPECIALLY when HU has so many items that apprently eventually make it into rifts like Glitterboys, Mutant Animals, etc

[drewkitty ~..~]

2) MDC Heroes:
a) If you want to run REAL mega heroes, USE MDC stats for them in an SDC world
b) So rifts/hu is broken, no continuity there? Because, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the SDC setting suppose to be the progenitor of the MDC world? If so then where the hell did it come from. I want a canon answer if they have canon "reason" why SDC worlds can't develop MDC items, ESPECIALLY when HU has so many items that apparently eventually make it into rifts like Glitterboys, Mutant Animals, etc

*takes a look & shaking head, crumples up the suggestion and tosses it into the circular file*

Let's see why to play HU2 if you've always played rifts, "I"M <BLEEPING> Board of RIFTS and MDC"

[KillWatch]

Jesus Effing Christ , I am not saying you SHOULD put MDC into HU, I was simply saying it COULD and there shouldn't be a reason why it couldn't, and that there are plenty reasons why there MAY be.

No MDC? fine
just don't say that there couldn't be

[Gryphon Chick]

NO YOURSELF NEKIRA... Gryphon Chick saw it right. I am Very much aware of the rules, but Megaversal Builder came out LONG after we had started playing HUL and others such RPG's. As such there is no logical reason to bust the rules cuz they changed to fit illogic, I'm sure that you can simpathize.

Actually, I already figured what Gryphon chick did, no need to flame me for it. However, the least you could do is if you know the rules say otherwise, than SAY you do. What you were doing is presenting your houserules as if that was the way it actually supposed to be done, which it isn't, and it needs to be corrected so any newcomers or other people on the forums (They are here ya know) don't read the thread and get the wrong idea. I actually tend to be one of the regulars on the Q&A forums and I can't tell you how many newcomers i've seen read posts like yours then have to make another thread asking which way it goes because it confuses the people who don't know any better. Your not just writing to me, or to palladium, your writing to every single people on these forums and not everyone knows the rules as well as longtimers like you and I.

Steeler likes to press his opinion as the way it should be done, hence my comments that he forces it down people''s necks. I have seen him answer his own questions numerous times rather than allow someone to explain their position and flame them for not agreeing with him. But you well know that by now. I prefer people who present their opinion and still allow you the dignity of your own.

[Stone Gargoyle]

True, but it is not like others on the boards don't do the same thing at times.