Disguising yourself as CS and attacking Quebec

[dark brandon]

No chance.

If CS wanted to, they would wipe quebec off the map. So, it is by the good graces of the CS that quebec still stands. It'd make no sense for CS to do something small to such a nameless country if they wanted to. Quebec would instantly realize their saviors, the CS would not harm them after the emperor had gifted them freedom and that if they wanted to, they'd already be dead and such a rouse would only strengthen ties between the CS and the weak, trembling country.

[jaymz]

No chance.

If CS wanted to, they would wipe quebec off the map. So, it is by the good graces of the CS that quebec still stands. It'd make no sense for CS to do something small to such a nameless country if they wanted to. Quebec would instantly realize their saviors, the CS would not harm them after the emperor had gifted them freedom and that if they wanted to, they'd already be dead and such a rouse would only strengthen ties between the CS and the weak, trembling country.

While I agree that the CS could win a war with FQ and "wipe them off the map" as you put it, it woul be very costly and pointless because in any war with FQ the CS woudl want the infrastructure more or less intact for thier own purposes.

That being said there is no win for either of them to go to war thus any attempt to start a war in this way is most likel yto fail and fail relatively quickly.

[dark brandon]

No chance.

If CS wanted to, they would wipe quebec off the map. So, it is by the good graces of the CS that quebec still stands. It'd make no sense for CS to do something small to such a nameless country if they wanted to. Quebec would instantly realize their saviors, the CS would not harm them after the emperor had gifted them freedom and that if they wanted to, they'd already be dead and such a rouse would only strengthen ties between the CS and the weak, trembling country.

While I agree that the CS could win a war with FQ and "wipe them off the map" as you put it, it woul be very costly and pointless because in any war with FQ the CS woudl want the infrastructure more or less intact for thier own purposes.

That being said there is no win for either of them to go to war thus any attempt to start a war in this way is most likel yto fail and fail relatively quickly.

I know these are internets, but I thought my sarcastic tone (especially from me) was quite evident.

[Lenwen]

Atlantis has some of the BEST cloning centers on Rifts earth .. And .. they can be "Speed" cloned .. with out any trouble at all ..

Genetic tests = Defeated ..

As far as Being spitting images of the Original being .. copied .. Easy enough .. Pastic Surgery .. so thats not an issue .. and for Dog Tags ..

Simply take the tags off of the individuals being "Cloned" .. and guess what .. Now you have ..

100% Genetic Duplicate ..

100% Exact Copy .. down to the color of the eyes .. and facial features ..

100% Exact Dog Tags ..

TA-DA !!

Considering that FQ does not have psionic abilities ..

This would be incredibly EASY .. to do .. and it would be as trivial as you an I turn on a light switch .. for Atlantis ..

[dark brandon]

Easy Fix .. Atlantis has some of the BEST cloning centers on Rifts earth .. And .. they can be "Speed" cloned .. with out any trouble at all ..

Genetic tests = Defeated ..

As far as Being spitting images of the Original being .. copied .. Easy enough .. Pastic Surgery .. so thats not an issue .. and for Dog Tags ..

Simply take the tags off of the individuals being "Cloned" .. and guess what .. Now you have ..

100% Genetic Duplicate ..

100% Exact Copy .. down to the color of the eyes .. and facial features ..

100% Exact Dog Tags ..

TA-DA !!

Not that I question your logic, but...would it not seem somewhat suspicious to either side that the ones attacking them are soldiers who have gone AWOL or MIA?

[Lenwen]

Easy Fix .. Atlantis has some of the BEST cloning centers on Rifts earth .. And .. they can be "Speed" cloned .. with out any trouble at all ..

Genetic tests = Defeated ..

As far as Being spitting images of the Original being .. copied .. Easy enough .. Pastic Surgery .. so thats not an issue .. and for Dog Tags ..

Simply take the tags off of the individuals being "Cloned" .. and guess what .. Now you have ..

100% Genetic Duplicate ..

100% Exact Copy .. down to the color of the eyes .. and facial features ..

100% Exact Dog Tags ..

TA-DA !!

Not that I question your logic, but...would it not seem somewhat suspicious to either side that the ones attacking them are soldiers who have gone AWOL or MIA?

Another easy fix ..

Splugorthian force .. simply overwhelms the nearest "Company" size or larger CS force ..

Over take the force .. with either superior numbers .. or simply by superior tactic's .. or how ever .. this is the easy part ..

Take the force .. (Now prisoners) and remove thier helms ..

Clip some hair, put it in a Glad sammich bag .. label it as the persons it is .. along with a Facial picture ..

put the entire force to sleep .. (any means even something as easily as an IV drip)

Mind wipe each individual soilder's mind of the entire event .. (Perm)

Place them into the exact position they were .. prior to the whole incident ..

And as they slowly all start to come too ..

Feed them some Kydian's .. (small sacrafice force) so that they think they all fell asleep due to some type of magical means .. (Hence they all awoke roughly in the same time)

Those Kydians are of course .. going to die .. but this way ..

You have all the Genetic makeup you need to Create the soilders needed for what I just said prior to my last post ..

[Lenwen]

Now the Force is not "Awol" or "MIA" or anything of the nature ..

Altantean spies can easily keep tabs on the CS forces ..

So that Atlantis knows right were the forces are ..

And .. you can take the time needed to perfect each clone .. down to the eye color as well as facial features ..

When the time is right ..

Recapture the force again ..

And this time .. Destroy the forces .. take the armors .. repair them .. (Kittani can do that with ease)

And place the clones into them ..

And now you have a dedicated Coalition force .. marching on FQ ..

[dark brandon]

Now the Force is not "Awol" or "MIA" or anything of the nature ..

Altantean spies can easily keep tabs on the CS forces ..

So that Atlantis knows right were the forces are ..

And .. you can take the time needed to perfect each clone .. down to the eye color as well as facial features ..

When the time is right ..

Recapture the force again ..

And this time .. Destroy the forces .. take the armors .. repair them .. (Kittani can do that with ease)

And place the clones into them ..

And now you have a dedicated Coalition force .. marching on FQ ..

Why would he do this again?

[Lenwen]

Now the Force is not "Awol" or "MIA" or anything of the nature ..

Altantean spies can easily keep tabs on the CS forces ..

So that Atlantis knows right were the forces are ..

And .. you can take the time needed to perfect each clone .. down to the eye color as well as facial features ..

When the time is right ..

Recapture the force again ..

And this time .. Destroy the forces .. take the armors .. repair them .. (Kittani can do that with ease)

And place the clones into them ..

And now you have a dedicated Coalition force .. marching on FQ ..

Why would he do this again?

Easy question ..

1) - To create a new Betting pool .. on various things .. heck .. he could if he wanted to .. place wagers on how long each individual Soilder would live .. or virtully ANY .. thing like that ..

2) - To get the CS and FQ .. into another "war" .. and to keep either of them from doing anything from stopping .. Lord Splynns .. North Amerian Bases .. from being discovered .. or taken out ..

But my bet is .. For Lord Splynn to simply create an entirely NEW ... Betting market ..

The Clones are 100% completely .. cut off from Atlantis .. and there is no way to trace them back to atlantis .. on any lvl ..

[dark brandon]

Easy question ..

1) - To create a new Betting pool .. on various things .. heck .. he could if he wanted to .. place wagers on how long each individual Soilder would live .. or virtully ANY .. thing like that ..

2) - To get the CS and FQ .. into another "war" ..

The Clones are 100% completely .. cut off from Atlantis .. and there is no way to trace them back to atlantis .. on any lvl ..

I won't argue that Splynn can't do it...he can.

I will merely argue your reasoning for him to do it.

It would just be easier to say "because he wants to".

when trying to compare CS to anything atlantis, it's like comparing a platoon of US Marines to an ant hill that's 10 blocks down the road.

I mean really, pulling atlantis into a situation isn't fun. It's a cop-out for when you have nothing else in your bag. It's not much of a thought exercise.

[Lenwen]

I mean really, pulling atlantis into a situation isn't fun. It's a cop-out for when you have nothing else in your bag. It's not much of a thought exercise.

And .. pulling out the CS is not the same .. for the North American Continent ?

HAHAHAHA

Yeah right ..

[dark brandon]

I mean really, pulling atlantis into a situation isn't fun. It's a cop-out for when you have nothing else in your bag. It's not much of a thought exercise.

And .. pulling out the CS is not the same .. for the North American Continent ?

HAHAHAHA

Yeah right ..

Depends on what context.

CS is far from undefeatable, and on a scale world wide, they are the third strongest nation out there. But atlantis probably could take the whole world if it wanted to. Atlantis is so far above the curve it's not fun to bring them in.

Now a fun thought exercise with atlantis would be "If splynn decided he wants wormwood, complete could he do it". That would be a fun thought exercise that involved atlantis.

[Lenwen]

CS is far from undefeatable, and on a scale world wide

I find it really funny .. you say that the CS is far from undefeatable .. yet .. have to look at it on a WORLD Scale ..

In North America ..

The CS .. plays the part that Atlantis does .. in the world ..

I think we both know this ..

And the only people who do not like to bring atlantis into the equation .. are people who heavily favor the CS over everything else in the game ..

Just as I .. love talking about all things atlantis .. because it is in fact the BEST civilization .. in Rifts Earth ..

[dark brandon]

I find it really funny .. you say that the CS is far from undefeatable .. yet .. have to look at it on a WORLD Scale ..

In North America ..

As any single nation on NA, yes, CS is one of the strongest. I would venture to say the Xitixics are far stronger. As is archie. and I believe the republicans hold a great amount of power as well though I don't have the sourcebook and cannot confirm. In fact, the very thought of the republicans seems LAME.

So, even in NA, CS has opponents that would make good thought exercises.

CS could conceivably be taken out if there was unity in NA. This of course leads to why and whens and hows...all excellent thought exercises. Could someone talk most of the powers in NA to unite against the CS? Why/why not? What would it take? Now you get pros and cons. You get point and counter point.

You really can't do that with splynn. Even world wide unity there may not be much chance against splynn. It's pretty much stated in canon in the book he could. He just doesn't because it would be impossible to keep it all (I assume otherworldly factors, nothing to do with anything on rifts itself).

[Lenwen]

As any single nation on NA, yes, CS is one of the strongest. I would venture to say the Xitixics are far stronger. As is archie. and I believe the republicans hold a great amount of power as well though I don't have the sourcebook and cannot confirm. In fact, the very thought of the republicans seems LAME.

So, even in NA, CS has opponents that would make good thought exercises.

Archie has the capability to take out the CS .. but does nothing to give away himself .. So that takes him outta the equation ..

CS could conceivably be taken out if there was unity in NA.

Actually .. it is not conceivable .. at all

Look what KS did to Tolkeen .. when Tolkeen sent out thier ambassador's to thier "Allies"

They stood alone. While the Bully on the block .. came up with handwaviumed this .. handwavim'ed that .. stuff to achieve a win ..

Matter of fact .. I find it sorta like a slap in the face .. that KS .. made the City of Tolkeen (known allies of several other power blocks) stand 100% completely alone .. in a war against a Nation ..

When Bullies bully people .. They band together .. or they eventually become the target of the Bully .. this is as common sense as it gets ..

Yet no one on North America .. wants to band together .. to STOP .. needless war's with no REAL .. achievable goals against what is .. North America's Deadliest advesary ?


And you call bringing atlantis into the equation unfair ?

You really can't do that with splynn.

You can not do that .. to the CS .. in North America either ..

[Corinth]

I would expect that the senior Intelligence officers, if not the head of state, would be far more familiar with the concept of a False Flag operation than this scheme implies. Therefore, I expect that Free Quebec's response would not be to immediately confront the Coalition; I expect that it would be to investigate using one official team and one covert, deniable team and see if these two independent teams reach the same conclusion. If so, then Free Quebec can confront the Coalition; the result would still likely be "Let us temporarily work together to determine the truth (while our spies check to see if either one of ours went rogue or we're being played by them)."

[jaymz]

Well FoM nveer intended to side with Tolkeen because of what happened almost a century earlier....Lazlo wanted no part of a war with the CS because of the death toll it would take on all sides....and Dweomer is part of the FoM and the Three wanted no part of the war for similar reason to Lazlo. NOt exactley far fetched that they didn't want any part of the war, allied with Tolkeen or not.

[Lenwen]

It might almost be possible to try this with infiltrations on BOTH sides at command positions, and then using real FQ/CS troops against each other, but you need some way to silence your agents they aren't aware of, or guarantee they are willing to die for the cause, not something that is easy to do when you realize the Republicans are CS troops without the indoctrination, basically.

I actually like this ..

Atlantis could with extream ease .. do this .. and to get the "Agents" out .. simply have them use a 1 use .. Teleportation charm. To Teleport out .. back to safty ..

And with some of the "Psymbiotes" .. You could literally MAKE .. the clones do everything you command them to do with out fail.

If you choose to keep the "Agents" there an have them die in the entire thing, they would do it due to the Psymbiote.

I love Atlantis .. man .. Thier just .. Pure Evilness !!!

[Lenwen]

I like it ..


I can rather easily see Lord Splynn doig something like this ..

If for no other reason then to simply create another entirely new Betting System .. to bring in more Capital .. haha

And Atlantis has the capability .. to do this with little to no trouble .. on any lvl ..

[V-Origin]

I think I am gonna play a high-level CS military specialist the next game.

Then I am gonna order my soldiers to attack Quebec.

When Quebec's diplomats ask me what's going on, I will just deny that those CS soldiers were my soldiers and were in fact Lazlo troops disguised as CS soldiers seeking to sow discord between Quebec and the CS.

I will come up with all sorts of incredible stories that my CS soldiers were possessed, they were under mind control, bla bla bla. I am very sure Quebec will believe me and forgive me for sending CS soldiers to attack them because according to my story, I didn't attack them.

Thanks guys, for giving the CS a free pass to attack Quebec.

In fact, the CS now has a free pass to attack anyone.

According to some of the pro-cs posters here, I won't be surprised if the CS send a memo to Lazlo which states, "We are very sorry for attacking Tolkeen. According to our investigation by our top level spies, it was the Federation of Magic who sent possessing entities to possess over 1 million of our soldiers and attack Tolkeen. It is not our fault we do not have magic to defend ourselves and thus we have an excuse for attacking Tolkeen."

And Lazlo is gonna believe this ****.

[Rallan]

So next game you're going to play a CS military specialist who's court martialed and executed?

Also, this:

Thanks guys, for giving the CS a free pass to attack Quebec

Nobody said anything like that. All we did was point out that your idea (faking a CS attack on Free Quebec so that FQ will declare war on the CS) is ridiculously impractical, and there's absolutely no way you'd be able to fool Quebec in any remotely realistic campaign. Free Quebec won't let this sort of incident slide because they're wimps who "give the CS a free pass", they'll let it slide because only a complete idiot would be fooled by the not-so-cunning plot you're proposing.

Seriously, the more you post in this thread the more ludicrous your suggestions get.

[runebeo]

I doubt this type of plan could work. Free Quebec will still have spies in the CS to investigate any such encounter. Free Quebec have Psychics with Object read, mind bond, telepathy, Empathy, Mentally possess others, hypnotic suggestion, Empathic transmission, mind bleeders, drugs & lie detectors to interrogate any P.O.W.s. Unless their was a powerful driving force within Free Quebec to cover up this type of investigation.

[V-Origin]

So next game you're going to play a CS military specialist who's court martialed and executed?

Also, this:

Thanks guys, for giving the CS a free pass to attack Quebec

Nobody said anything like that. All we did was point out that your idea (faking a CS attack on Free Quebec so that FQ will declare war on the CS) is ridiculously impractical, and there's absolutely no way you'd be able to fool Quebec in any remotely realistic campaign. Free Quebec won't let this sort of incident slide because they're wimps who "give the CS a free pass", they'll let it slide because only a complete idiot would be fooled by the not-so-cunning plot you're proposing.

Seriously, the more you post in this thread the more ludicrous your suggestions get.

Wow, I didn't know that Free Quebec who has no magic-users, no psychics, no mutants are able to have such an almighty espionage agency capable of finding out just about anything.

In fact, Quebec spies, who are incapable of psionics or magic, are so powerful that they are even capable of defeating Coalition spies who possess psionics and the F.O.M. spies who possess both psionics and magic!

So if the F.O.M. tried using fake CS soldiers, they will automatically be found out by the almighty Quebec spies! If the CS used their real CS soldiers and cook up a story that it was the F.O.M. who manipulated their CS soldiers with magic, they would also be found out by the almighty Quebec spies!

Magic and Psionics have no effect whatsoever against the French Wines and Pro-CS/Anti-Magic Gamemasters!

In fact, Quebec spies are so powerful they might even find out what I have for lunch yesterday! Without the use of Psionics and Magic!

Remind me to play a Quebec Spy in any game you guys run, eh? Talk about not using one's common sense.

[V-Origin]

I doubt this type of plan could work. Free Quebec will still have spies in the CS to investigate any such encounter. Free Quebec have Psychics with Object read, mind bond, telepathy, Empathy, Mentally possess others, hypnotic suggestion, Empathic transmission, mind bleeders, drugs & lie detectors to interrogate any P.O.W.s. Unless their was a powerful driving force within Free Quebec to cover up this type of investigation.

Quebec has NO PSYCHICS and NO MUTANTS whatsoever!

Go read up Free Quebec before you open your gap again!

[dark brandon]

Seriously, the more you post in this thread the more ludicrous your suggestions get.

that's cause it's called trolling. And you all keep fallin for it.

[Dustin Fireblade]

So next game you're going to play a CS military specialist who's court martialed and executed?

Also, this:

Thanks guys, for giving the CS a free pass to attack Quebec

Nobody said anything like that. All we did was point out that your idea (faking a CS attack on Free Quebec so that FQ will declare war on the CS) is ridiculously impractical, and there's absolutely no way you'd be able to fool Quebec in any remotely realistic campaign. Free Quebec won't let this sort of incident slide because they're wimps who "give the CS a free pass", they'll let it slide because only a complete idiot would be fooled by the not-so-cunning plot you're proposing.

Seriously, the more you post in this thread the more ludicrous your suggestions get.

Wow, I didn't know that Free Quebec who has no magic-users, no psychics, no mutants are able to have such an almighty espionage agency capable of finding out just about anything.

In fact, Quebec spies, who are incapable of psionics or magic, are so powerful that they are even capable of defeating Coalition spies who possess psionics and the F.O.M. spies who possess both psionics and magic!

So if the F.O.M. tried using fake CS soldiers, they will automatically be found out by the almighty Quebec spies! If the CS used their real CS soldiers and cook up a story that it was the F.O.M. who manipulated their CS soldiers with magic, they would also be found out by the almighty Quebec spies!

Magic and Psionics have no effect whatsoever against the French Wines and Pro-CS/Anti-Magic Gamemasters!

In fact, Quebec spies are so powerful they might even find out what I have for lunch yesterday! Without the use of Psionics and Magic!

Remind me to play a Quebec Spy in any game you guys run, eh? Talk about not using one's common sense.

You don't NEED to be a Mind Melter or a High Magus, or anything else. A compentent spy agency (that Quebec DOES have)will learn that the CS High Command did not order any attacks on Quebec. They will then know that it was a rogue operation or a plan to further drive a wedge between Quebec and the CS.

All this has been talk about field actions by kidnapped, brain-washed soldiers, or even cloned soldiers. Soldiers don't just go off and do their own thing without orders from higher ups, especially attacks on foreign nations. I don't care how well you think they can "role-play" a fake briefing or whatever, those orders came from higher up and so on up the chain.

[V-Origin]

So next game you're going to play a CS military specialist who's court martialed and executed?

Also, this:

Thanks guys, for giving the CS a free pass to attack Quebec

Nobody said anything like that. All we did was point out that your idea (faking a CS attack on Free Quebec so that FQ will declare war on the CS) is ridiculously impractical, and there's absolutely no way you'd be able to fool Quebec in any remotely realistic campaign. Free Quebec won't let this sort of incident slide because they're wimps who "give the CS a free pass", they'll let it slide because only a complete idiot would be fooled by the not-so-cunning plot you're proposing.

Seriously, the more you post in this thread the more ludicrous your suggestions get.

Wow, I didn't know that Free Quebec who has no magic-users, no psychics, no mutants are able to have such an almighty espionage agency capable of finding out just about anything.

In fact, Quebec spies, who are incapable of psionics or magic, are so powerful that they are even capable of defeating Coalition spies who possess psionics and the F.O.M. spies who possess both psionics and magic!

So if the F.O.M. tried using fake CS soldiers, they will automatically be found out by the almighty Quebec spies! If the CS used their real CS soldiers and cook up a story that it was the F.O.M. who manipulated their CS soldiers with magic, they would also be found out by the almighty Quebec spies!

Magic and Psionics have no effect whatsoever against the French Wines and Pro-CS/Anti-Magic Gamemasters!

In fact, Quebec spies are so powerful they might even find out what I have for lunch yesterday! Without the use of Psionics and Magic!

Remind me to play a Quebec Spy in any game you guys run, eh? Talk about not using one's common sense.

You don't NEED to be a Mind Melter or a High Magus, or anything else. A compentent spy agency (that Quebec DOES have)will learn that the CS High Command did not order any attacks on Quebec. They will then know that it was a rogue operation or a plan to further drive a wedge between Quebec and the CS.

All this has been talk about field actions by kidnapped, brain-washed soldiers, or even cloned soldiers. Soldiers don't just go off and do their own thing without orders from higher ups, especially attacks on foreign nations. I don't care how well you think they can "role-play" a fake briefing or whatever, those orders came from higher up and so on up the chain.

Alright, based on what you just said, I will just possess some CS troops to attack Quebec then. So if they are captured by Quebec spies, they will just say,"I don't know why I attacked you. I just did it. My CS superiors didn't order me to attack you so don't blame them. It must have been those damn Lazlo magic-users casting some black magic on me or something."

It is just like a bank robber in rifts going to rob a bank with a gun. When he's captured, he told the cops,"I did not know why I robbed the bank. I must have been possessed or something."

Do you think anyone is gonna believe that story? LOL.

[Dustin Fireblade]

So next game you're going to play a CS military specialist who's court martialed and executed?

Also, this:

Thanks guys, for giving the CS a free pass to attack Quebec

Nobody said anything like that. All we did was point out that your idea (faking a CS attack on Free Quebec so that FQ will declare war on the CS) is ridiculously impractical, and there's absolutely no way you'd be able to fool Quebec in any remotely realistic campaign. Free Quebec won't let this sort of incident slide because they're wimps who "give the CS a free pass", they'll let it slide because only a complete idiot would be fooled by the not-so-cunning plot you're proposing.

Seriously, the more you post in this thread the more ludicrous your suggestions get.

Wow, I didn't know that Free Quebec who has no magic-users, no psychics, no mutants are able to have such an almighty espionage agency capable of finding out just about anything.

In fact, Quebec spies, who are incapable of psionics or magic, are so powerful that they are even capable of defeating Coalition spies who possess psionics and the F.O.M. spies who possess both psionics and magic!

So if the F.O.M. tried using fake CS soldiers, they will automatically be found out by the almighty Quebec spies! If the CS used their real CS soldiers and cook up a story that it was the F.O.M. who manipulated their CS soldiers with magic, they would also be found out by the almighty Quebec spies!

Magic and Psionics have no effect whatsoever against the French Wines and Pro-CS/Anti-Magic Gamemasters!

In fact, Quebec spies are so powerful they might even find out what I have for lunch yesterday! Without the use of Psionics and Magic!

Remind me to play a Quebec Spy in any game you guys run, eh? Talk about not using one's common sense.

You don't NEED to be a Mind Melter or a High Magus, or anything else. A compentent spy agency (that Quebec DOES have)will learn that the CS High Command did not order any attacks on Quebec. They will then know that it was a rogue operation or a plan to further drive a wedge between Quebec and the CS.

All this has been talk about field actions by kidnapped, brain-washed soldiers, or even cloned soldiers. Soldiers don't just go off and do their own thing without orders from higher ups, especially attacks on foreign nations. I don't care how well you think they can "role-play" a fake briefing or whatever, those orders came from higher up and so on up the chain.

Alright, based on what you just said, I will just possess some CS troops to attack Quebec then. So if they are captured by Quebec spies, they will just say,"I don't know why I attacked you. I just did it. My CS superiors didn't order me to attack you so don't blame them. It must have been those damn Lazlo magic-users casting some black magic on me or something."

It is just like a bank robber in rifts going to rob a bank with a gun. When he's captured, he told the cops,"I did not know why I robbed the bank. I must have been possessed or something."

Do you think anyone is gonna believe that story? LOL.

[Lenwen]

Well if the Splugorth wanted to .. They actually have merchants that Sell CS weapons, armors an other stuff...

All they would have to do is read the memories of the CS deadboys they have in the slave pens .. implant those memories into another totaly human being .. put that human in the Deadboy armor .. with a deep seeded hatred for Free Quebec (which again can be put in the mind) and now do this as many times as it takes ..

Now you have 100% humans ..

100% Coalition Gear ..

100% Coalition men with CS memories ..

100% Hatred of FQ ..

100% full proof way to instigate ..

Considering FQ has no Psionic's in its military .. it would be trivial for the Atlantean based CS force .. to hide its tracks .. with out any trouble at all ..

[gaby]

Yes the CS can say it was Mage or D-Bees and Quebec will Believe it,Mind-control is real in this world.

Both do not want a war with a Marjorty Human nation.

[Rallan]

Seriously, the more you post in this thread the more ludicrous your suggestions get.

that's cause it's called trolling. And you all keep fallin for it.

Yeah but there's such a fine line between trolls and earnest Rifts fans

[Lenwen]

Seriously, the more you post in this thread the more ludicrous your suggestions get.

that's cause it's called trolling. And you all keep fallin for it.

Yeah but there's such a fine line between trolls and earnest Rifts fans :)

True'er words .. were never spoken ..

[runebeo]

Using Mentally Possess Others a psychic can take over a P.O.W.'s body, then go chat with other prisoners and if he has just mind bonded with him it will be hard to detect the deception.

[V-Origin]

Yes the CS can say it was Mage or D-Bees and Quebec will Believe it,Mind-control is real in this world.

Both do not want a war with a Marjorty Human nation.

Yes Gaby. The CS will use the same excuse when they assault Quebec the next time.

And Quebec is gonna fall for the same excuse.

In fact, when the CS has completely invaded Quebec, Prosek is gonna say, "Sorry Quebec, I didn't know I ordered my troops to attack you. I Was Possessed. But now that I have conquered, there isn't a need for me to return your country to you. You French Wines just suck my ass for the rest of your lives." LOL

[V-Origin]

Yes Gaby. The CS will use the same excuse when they assault Quebec the next time.

And Quebec is gonna fall for the same excuse.

In fact, when the CS has completely invaded Quebec, Prosek is gonna say, "Sorry Quebec, I didn't know I ordered my troops to attack you. I Was Possessed. But now that I have conquered, there isn't a need for me to return your country to you. You French Wines just suck my *** for the rest of your lives." LOL

I really don't see the CS attacking FQ again. In Final Siege it states that Emperor Prosek gave an impassioned speech asking forgivness and vowing never to attack FQ again. The CS would do everything in it's power to prove they were setup in this scenario of yours and I tend to think they'ed get the proof, plus FQ would also have their own spies out and would get the truth themselves.

Lenwen's right about the Splugorth being the only one able to truly pull this off, but doesn't atlantis have a remote outpost somewhat close to FQ and if they did try to start something between FQ and the CS and somehow got caught, then FQ would ask the CS for help in destroying that outpost. And I think the CS would help in that little mission.

What you see doesn't matter as much as what the Quebec intelligence see - which is both the CS and D-Bees want them dead.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Yes Gaby. The CS will use the same excuse when they assault Quebec the next time.

And Quebec is gonna fall for the same excuse.

In fact, when the CS has completely invaded Quebec, Prosek is gonna say, "Sorry Quebec, I didn't know I ordered my troops to attack you. I Was Possessed. But now that I have conquered, there isn't a need for me to return your country to you. You French Wines just suck my *** for the rest of your lives." LOL

I really don't see the CS attacking FQ again. In Final Siege it states that Emperor Prosek gave an impassioned speech asking forgivness and vowing never to attack FQ again. The CS would do everything in it's power to prove they were setup in this scenario of yours and I tend to think they'ed get the proof, plus FQ would also have their own spies out and would get the truth themselves.

Lenwen's right about the Splugorth being the only one able to truly pull this off, but doesn't atlantis have a remote outpost somewhat close to FQ and if they did try to start something between FQ and the CS and somehow got caught, then FQ would ask the CS for help in destroying that outpost. And I think the CS would help in that little mission.

What you see doesn't matter as much as what the Quebec intelligence see - which is both the CS and D-Bees want them dead.

well half right...the CS does NOT want Quebec dead.

[Elthbert]

!

Now Lie Detectors fall under the same heading technically as Empathy, however in real life you actually can't spoof these things most of the time, its actually nearly impossible. In a typical game, this changes depending on the GM and the character. With a Bio-Comp, a Juicer is actually impossible to detect, same thing as Crazies for different reasons. But your typical super agent isn't as likely to shake off a detector and/or drugs, not unless you want a fantastic element to your game world.

And lastly, EVERYONE breaks under torture, its just a matter of time. You talk, its just that you have to talk garbage a lot to muddy the waters. Its all a matter of telling near truths and half lies consistently (with consistency being the hard part here, pain and fear being such strong motivators and all) and hope that you actually manage to spill the truth in a manner that makes it hard for the interrogator to truly understand it for the truth.

I agree with everything you said but these last two things.

You can indeed beat a lie detector, and there are multiple ways to do it, the soviets and the AMericans trained people to do it using differant techniques further, people who simply lack a conscince can often beat them. Drugs are a bit harder, but people react differantly to drugs so it is possible that some people could resist them up to doses which my kill them out right.


And everybody does not break under torture. I would agree most people do, but certianly not everyone.

[Elthbert]

FQ is a human majority run kingdom with significant resources, personnel, Glitter Boys, and a distinct dislike for many of the same things the rest of the CS hates. Why would they ever, in a way that would in any manner gain them nothing, ever want to conquer this allied nation, especially since Triax and FQ are research and trade partners, something the CS desperately wants to get back for their own? Taking FQ won't do it, it will simply **** of Triax one final time and poof, the primary source of ALL of their technical advances in the last 5-10 years goes away in a brief, badly thought out attack.

FQ, Triax, CS, and anyone else with a moderately decent grasp of local intelligence knows this, and won't buy such a thing happening. This lack of belief isn't carte blanche to launch such an attack, it is instead confirmation that such an attack HAD to have come from some other source, or CS forces were manipulated in some manner. The only way this will work is if some aspect of the CS can be goaded into such an attack internally, and even then FQ would expect the CS to fully investigate, because FQ CAN'T take the CS in a fight. Would it be a cake walk? No, it wouldn't but it would be the fall of FQ, the further weakening of the CS, and the potential for someone to try an invasion that will lead to CS nuclear retaliation. This isn't something anyone really wants. The CS is never going to fall, it is going to have to change, probable with Joseph's son, at best.

Agreed.

[V-Origin]

Let's put it this way.

If CS troops keep attacking Quebec and even if CS keeps denying it, Quebec is only gonna end up being suspicious of both the D-bees and CS.

Trust no one will be their motto. Even if CS provides evidence, the paranoia in the Quebecis will prevent them from completely trusting the CS.

And that is the entire objective of the whole operation. Erode the trust between the CS and Quebec leading to outright war if the cards are played right.

[jaymz]

It won;t lead to outright war is the part you don't seem to understand Crys. They already distrust everyone outside their borders including the CS. The only nation that could even remotley try to pull this off would have no interest in doing it to start with. The Cs will not for at least another decade even THINK about a full out war against another nation and the likely hood of that Nation being FQ is HIGHLY ridiculous. It will likely be FoM or maybe Lazlo. IF it is Lazlo THEN FQ maybe in thier sights. IF it is FoM then no way in hell is FQ even in the top 3. we ar trying to be logical about it and all you do is throw more fuel on the fire and i really am not sure why. You want rh tech nation to be that stupid and useless by all means but by canon they are far from that.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Actually, how come everyone says there are no FQ psychics when FQ had access to the same resources, OCC/RCC/PCC wise as the other CS nations, and lived next to a bunch of potential supernatural threats? That's like Alaska declaring (and being allowed to actually truly become) independence, and then tossing out all US armed forces intelligence gather and special operations apparatus entirely, without having a replacement option. It makes no sense. And where do all the FQ Psi-Stalkers, Dog Boys, and Tech Spec: Psi personnel go? I can see them ousting NET-SET maybe, but the actions being described suddenly undoes all the forward work Psis have been achieving in the last decade entirely, and this is with a nation that actually accepted Crazies too! (You, know, those lovable potentially psychotic psionic super humans, right!)

Quebec has no psi of any kind as per the Free Quebec world book. No Dog Boys, no Psi-Stalkers, nothing. They never used them, just like they used Glitter Boys and the other CS didn't. The psi's are viewed as second class citizen's at best. This is covered on pages 34-36 of WB 22.

[Rallan]

I'm still wondering how CS and FQ spies across north america aren't going to notice that hundreds of millions (billions even?) of credits worth of CS guns, armor, vehicles, and robots are being picked up off the black market by a mystery buyer along with enough transportation, food, and ammunition to provision a small army.

Or how CS and FQ patrols aren't going to notice a large force assembling outside Quebec's borders.

Or how Quebec scouts aren't going to be able to follow the trail back to base and find out what really happened.

Or how someone's supposed to assemble the huge number of master psychics and/or supernatural monsters (depending on which version of the harebrained scheme we go with) that'll be needed to brainwash a small army of humans into being convincing fake Coalition soldiers.

Or how that small army will be recruited or abducted in the first place.

Or where the money to pay for all of this comes from.

Or what Free Quebec will think when its spies in the CS can't find any trace of a plan to attack Quebec and deny all knowledge of it, and instead are finding evidence of a CS plan to find out what the heck is going on and put a stop to it.

This'll "erode the trust between the CS and Quebec" for the five minutes it takes them both to realise that this is a transparent ruse. Then once they've figured out what's going on (which isn't hard at all), it'll give 'em both pause for thought as they realise that they've got a mutual enemy with considerable wealth and power that's trying to drive a wedge between them.

[Corinth]

Quebec has no psi of any kind as per the Free Quebec world book. No Dog Boys, no Psi-Stalkers, nothing. They never used them, just like they used Glitter Boys and the other CS didn't. The psi's are viewed as second class citizen's at best. This is covered on pages 34-36 of WB 22.

This is true. It is written that way. It's also utterly unbelievable that this is sustainable, and the lawful results of such a policy is best left for another thread.

[Rallan]

Quebec has no psi of any kind as per the Free Quebec world book. No Dog Boys, no Psi-Stalkers, nothing. They never used them, just like they used Glitter Boys and the other CS didn't. The psi's are viewed as second class citizen's at best. This is covered on pages 34-36 of WB 22.

This is true. It is written that way. It's also utterly unbelievable that this is sustainable, and the lawful results of such a policy is best left for another thread.

A complete absence of common sense? In my Rifts canon?

[Corinth]

Quebec has no psi of any kind as per the Free Quebec world book. No Dog Boys, no Psi-Stalkers, nothing. They never used them, just like they used Glitter Boys and the other CS didn't. The psi's are viewed as second class citizen's at best. This is covered on pages 34-36 of WB 22.

This is true. It is written that way. It's also utterly unbelievable that this is sustainable, and the lawful results of such a policy is best left for another thread.

A complete absence of common sense? In my Rifts canon?

It's more common than you think. (Yes, I saw what you did there, and I approve.)

[V-Origin]

I'm still wondering how CS and FQ spies across north america aren't going to notice that hundreds of millions (billions even?) of credits worth of CS guns, armor, vehicles, and robots are being picked up off the black market by a mystery buyer along with enough transportation, food, and ammunition to provision a small army.

Or how CS and FQ patrols aren't going to notice a large force assembling outside Quebec's borders.

Or how Quebec scouts aren't going to be able to follow the trail back to base and find out what really happened.

Or how someone's supposed to assemble the huge number of master psychics and/or supernatural monsters (depending on which version of the harebrained scheme we go with) that'll be needed to brainwash a small army of humans into being convincing fake Coalition soldiers.

Or how that small army will be recruited or abducted in the first place.

Or where the money to pay for all of this comes from.

Or what Free Quebec will think when its spies in the CS can't find any trace of a plan to attack Quebec and deny all knowledge of it, and instead are finding evidence of a CS plan to find out what the heck is going on and put a stop to it.

This'll "erode the trust between the CS and Quebec" for the five minutes it takes them both to realise that this is a transparent ruse. Then once they've figured out what's going on (which isn't hard at all), it'll give 'em both pause for thought as they realise that they've got a mutual enemy with considerable wealth and power that's trying to drive a wedge between them.

The money comes from the coffers of New Tolkeen's god sponsors.

The army will be abducted piece by piece. A few squads here and a few squads there.

The brainwashing by master psychics/supernatural monsters will be conducted in the CIA/Intelligence HQ of New Tolkeen or another dimension.

The huge amount of CS equipment will be acquired piece by piece or manufactured by non-CS manufacturers.

Attacks on FQ will be the following process. First a few spies and mages scout for some targets to hit. Then they locate a staging ground near the target.

The staging ground will have no witnesses and we know it is possible bcos FQ is a huge piece of land. Cast illusionary forest to hide the staging ground and open up a teleportation circle/gate to another dimension where the brainwashed CS troops are already waiting.

The brainwashed CS troops attack the FQ with the spies and mages scouting from a distance. If the attacks fail, bombs hidden inside the CS soldiers' bodies, amour, Powered armour and robots/tanks will explode. If the attacks succeed, CS troops will trek to an extraction ground where there are no witnesses.

Mages cast Illusionary forest on extraction grounds and open dimension gates. CS troops exit this world into another dimension.

Easy.

[Jack Daniels]

The money comes from the coffers of New Tolkeen's god sponsors.

OK first, this is unfair. New Tolkeen has fabulously wealthy god sponsors to go along with its limitless supply of Noro psychics? Since this is your setting why don't you stop beating around the bush with comic book plots and, like Smashed suggests, just have New Tolkeen wipe the CS off the map directly?

The army will be abducted piece by piece. A few squads here and a few squads there.

When the bodies are recovered and examined it will become obvious that this was a mish-mash of unrelated units if you go this route. An investigation will reveal that they were all reported as MIA/KIA by their parent units and all under similar circumstances, unless of course a different method of abduction was used each time. Making certain that there was no pattern in the abductions would be enormously complicated, but of course we're already way past that point so lets just assume it can be done by the villainous masterminds of New Tolkeen.
Still, no competent military would stage a covert op intended to provoke war with another powerful nation using a mish-mash of unrelated units. The coordination and training required would be extensive and using so many different units would make operational security literally impossible while the involved units were undergoing that training. That there would be no evidence of any of this in CS records would indicate to both CS internal investigators as well as FQ embedded spies that the CS did not plan this op.

The brainwashing by master psychics/supernatural monsters will be conducted in the CIA/Intelligence HQ of New Tolkeen or another dimension.

It is your setting so if you say New Tolkeen is capable of brainwashing this many soldiers it must be so. What is the organizational alignment of New Tolkeen by the way?

The huge amount of CS equipment will be acquired piece by piece or manufactured by non-CS manufacturers.

Again, this method will result in lots of clues that this was not a CS op. Acquiring equipment piece by piece will result in an even greater apparent mish-mash of units than the abduction scheme. There will be no consistency in serial numbers within a squad or even on an individual soldier. Additionally, most of this equipment will be reported as lost, stolen, or captured and none of it will be recorded as assigned to the soldier who had it. Then the equipment that is made by non-CS manufacturers, even assuming their methods of copying are exact (there are several very large holes in this assumption that I will ignore for purposes of finishing this post), will not have matching serial numbers or they will duplicate serial numbers already in the CS records. The sheer amount of effort it would require to to fake that much documentation of equipment would be huge. These are all again things that can be investigated through CS records by both internal investigators as well as any theoretical FQ spies and would be mighty suspicious.

Attacks on FQ will be the following process. First a few spies and mages scout for some targets to hit. Then they locate a staging ground near the target.

The staging ground will have no witnesses and we know it is possible bcos FQ is a huge piece of land. Cast illusionary forest to hide the staging ground and open up a teleportation circle/gate to another dimension where the brainwashed CS troops are already waiting.

The brainwashed CS troops attack the FQ with the spies and mages scouting from a distance. If the attacks fail, bombs hidden inside the CS soldiers' bodies, amour, Powered armour and robots/tanks will explode. If the attacks succeed, CS troops will trek to an extraction ground where there are no witnesses.

Mages cast Illusionary forest on extraction grounds and open dimension gates. CS troops exit this world into another dimension.

The staging ground and the target selection I can go with. Any intelligent magical kingdom would use that kind of attack as part of SOP.

The suicide pills though are the most ridiculous give away yet. There are many ways for me to go at this but I've already talked about records so I'll do that more. Each of the soldiers involved would have to have had surgery to implant the bomb, there would normally be a record of that surgery in each case, doctors signatures, post op checks, serial numbers of devices used, surgical teams involved, etc etc. A half-dozen people would be involved in each surgery team and there would have to be dozens of surgery teams involved to perform the operation on every soldier in a reasonable time frame. And not a single one of these medical professionals leaves a single scrap of record of this entire operation? Unlikely. That same complete lack of evidence in the CS records again.
Repeat all of this for the mechanical requirements of rigging every vehicle to self destruct. . . And how is the command issued? Does each explosive have a receiver and is it secured in any way or might a random transmission set it off? Is the security on the receiver CS issue and if so, how does New Tolkeen have such a secure piece of knowledge/tech? If it is not CS issue then why would presumably the most important piece of the puzzle be the only thing that is not from the CS?

Easy.

Even what you described is not exactly easy to pull off. Making what you described a plausible plan that might have a chance of standing up to any investigation, and thereby serve its purpose of creating conflict between FQ and the CS, would be much more difficult than simply deciding that New Tolkeen is strong enough to destroy the CS itself.

This plot would work great in a comic book and I'm not intending that as a slam. If your setting works with comic book logic, comic book politics, and comic book plots that's fine. There is reason that comic books are pretty popular and that is because they are fun and entertaining. Logic, politics and plots in the real world however and not nearly as entertaining because it's the real world and things don't work like they do in comics. Unless you set the scene otherwise, people in this forum tend to relate to the real world more than they do to comic world.

So, let's say New Tolkeen executes this op as you have described in the "real world". Lots of soldiers on both sides are killed and 100s of millions in equipment is destroyed. FQ is not going to simply launch a counter attack, their individual units are not going to launch couterattacks either. They have a chain of command which will contact the CS command and demand an explanation. The CS high command will not initially know what FQ is yelling about, so rather than expose their ignorance they will give some unspecific non-denials and ask for time to prepare a report. The CS will try to find out what happened and their spies in FQ will feed them the information about what it is that FQ is so upset about. CS high command will immediately realize that they did not authorize the attack. They will notify FQ command that they were not involved and are beginning an investigation to determine the culprits, they will ask for the evidence that FQ collected from the battlefield to aid their investigation and if they are concerned about FQ not trusting their investigation they will invite FQ to send a team to observe and monitor the progress. The investigation will reveal the complete lack of evidence (see above) that the CS was involved in the planning or execution of the attack and the investigation will then turn to likely outside instigators that would have the resources to pull off an op of that scale and stood to benefit from the results.

That's may not be very entertaining, especially from a roleplaying standpoint, but it is a lot more realistic than it is comic book.

[jaymz]

What JD said is true, except the CS will end up sending a team to FQ, not the other way around.

Oh, and the team leader will be a red headed guy with a pair of sunglasses and some snappy opening lines too!

Dont forget he head tilt.....

[Dustin Fireblade]

The money comes from the coffers of New Tolkeen's god sponsors.

Yeah, again as mentioned in the Machinations of Doom thread - your personal campaign, as interesting as it may be, really can't be brought into discussions like this.