Altess for the win!

[rat_bastard]

I've been going over the books because the thought of a naval war between the Altess And the Golan Republik fascinates me and I've come to a singular conclusion: The Altess are going to beat the Republik like redheaded step children.

Lets look at the Golan Republic for a second, their main advantage is communication with their future self and extremely skilled fighter pilots. Beyond those two things they have nothing to speak of. Their fighters have among the finest pilots but may as well be built out of chicken wire and paper mache (300 MD main body), Their brand new style of super ship's main gun is pointed out of their rear for god sakes.

Now look the Altess, First off they have more money than several pantheons of gods. If there is a ship, gun or technology available on the open (or black) market they have it, if its a technology that they cannot produce they can buy it. Two, the advocate robots. It takes years and large amounts of money to make an experienced soldier, the Altess can smelt a medium sized asteroid and make a billion expert soldiers trained in any discipline in a month. Now look at any Naruni item in any book ever, now remember that the Altess own 39% of Naruni and 100% of the Hartigal Combine, so any Naruni item in any book is theirs if they want it.

The way I would play things If I was the Altess is first purchase the IDAR (Anvil Galaxies page 33) and move their operations to Altess Space. For those of you not in the know the IDAR has a technology that allows instant communication between points over any distance. The problem is that they only have a thousand of these devices and are struggling to produce more. However with the Altess's Small numbers they can keep their battle groups and planets in constant contact.

The other thing is he Altess need to pick up several Narnui Commodity Class ships to use as Aircraft Carriers. A single Commodity Class can Be easily loaded with 3000 Space Fighters and 1-3000 Silverhawks piloted by advocates.

A single Commodity Class With several Zhokil classes with Yannar Classes acting as a defensive screen could sit outside of the range of nearly any ship or battle group and rain horrible amounts of pain on their enemies. The main guns of the Zhokil class can strip the force-field off of almost any ship outside of the range of while the Yannar classes use their 60 attacks (each gun manned by a Advocate) to foil any attempts to strike back with Missiles.

Whats more every time the Altess take a planet they don't have to hold it, they can just sell it to Naruni as payment for the money the Republik owes the Naruni, effectively acting as Naruni's collection agency.

I honestly don't see what the Republic could possibly do to beat the Altess unless the Altess do something to destroy themselves.

[The Galactus Kid]

Awesome. Also, you suck. Just saying...

[rat_bastard]

Also, that Altess battle-group I mentioned has a speed of 8 light years per hour, 1/3 faster than a Golan Battle group.

[taalismn]

Ouch....Yes, it's good to be rich.

[DhAkael]

It's good to be the King / Queen / Gender Undetermined Royal Personage. =)

The froggies gonna be stomped... HARDCORE

[Pox]

I've been going over the books because the thought of a naval war between the Altess And the Golan Republik fascinates me and I've come to a singular conclusion: The Altess are going to beat the Republik like redheaded step children.

Lets look at the Golan Republic for a second, their main advantage is communication with their future self and extremely skilled fighter pilots. Beyond those two things they have nothing to speak of. Their fighters have among the finest pilots but may as well be built out of chicken wire and paper mache (300 MD main body), Their brand new style of super ship's main gun is pointed out of their rear for god sakes.

Now look the Altess, First off they have more money than several pantheons of gods. If there is a ship, gun or technology available on the open (or black) market they have it, if its a technology that they cannot produce they can buy it. Two, the advocate robots. It takes years and large amounts of money to make an experienced soldier, the Altess can smelt a medium sized asteroid and make a billion expert soldiers trained in any discipline in a month. Now look at any Naruni item in any book ever, now remember that the Altess own 39% of Naruni and 100% of the Hartigal Combine, so any Naruni item in any book is theirs if they want it.

The way I would play things If I was the Altess is first purchase the IDAR (Anvil Galaxies page 33) and move their operations to Altess Space. For those of you not in the know the IDAR has a technology that allows instant communication between points over any distance. The problem is that they only have a thousand of these devices and are struggling to produce more. However with the Altess's Small numbers they can keep their battle groups and planets in constant contact.

The other thing is he Altess need to pick up several Narnui Commodity Class ships to use as Aircraft Carriers. A single Commodity Class can Be easily loaded with 3000 Space Fighters and 1-3000 Silverhawks piloted by advocates.

A single Commodity Class With several Zhokil classes with Yannar Classes acting as a defensive screen could sit outside of the range of nearly any ship or battle group and rain horrible amounts of pain on their enemies. The main guns of the Zhokil class can strip the force-field off of almost any ship outside of the range of while the Yannar classes use their 60 attacks (each gun manned by a Advocate) to foil any attempts to strike back with Missiles.

Whats more every time the Altess take a planet they don't have to hold it, they can just sell it to Naruni as payment for the money the Republik owes the Naruni, effectively acting as Naruni's collection agency.

I honestly don't see what the Republic could possibly do to beat the Altess unless the Altess do something to destroy themselves.

The Golgans could come storming out of the Duluth Xiticix hives in a concerted attack of hit and run sorties and Handwavium-tipped Cruise missiles...oh....wait...

nevermind....carry on.

[Jorel]

The Golgans from the future must know how bad they got their asses kicked in the past.

[Braden Campbell]

You are forgetting that most of the Armoria is sitting in storage on Novus 9... which will disappear in time at some point. This in turn, will gut the Altess defenses by a significant percentage. The Golgan have been told this via the Tachyonic Anti-telephone, and are simply waiting for the event to happen.

I'm not saying that it will work, but that's their plan.

[rat_bastard]

You are forgetting that most of the Armoria is sitting in storage on Novus 9... which will disappear in time at some point. This in turn, will gut the Altess defenses by a significant percentage. The Golgan have been told this via the Tachyonic Anti-telephone, and are simply waiting for the event to happen.

I'm not saying that it will work, but that's their plan.

I'm not forgetting it, I just don't think it is going to be that bad.

[taalismn]

Hey! Happy days for interstellar mercenaries(provided they can survive the post-war economic crash from all those Altess cashing out to hire them)!!!

(We really need revised tables for creating Space Mercs, especially those specializing in starship combat).

[rat_bastard]

Hey! Happy days for interstellar mercenaries(provided they can survive the post-war economic crash from all those Altess cashing out to hire them)!!!

(We really need revised tables for creating Space Mercs, especially those specializing in starship combat).

See if the Altess have a manpower problem then they'll just get the Central Alliance to fight for them.

[taalismn]

See if the Altess have a manpower problem then they'll just get the Central Alliance to fight for them.

Cyborg barbarians for the win! Pumped up with Altess-paid-for heavy weaponry!
Of course, they'll need a decent spacefleet to really compete against the Golgans, and if the Altess have lost their main warship production facilities, finding indies able and willing to whip up capital warships in short order may present a problem.

[rat_bastard]

See if the Altess have a manpower problem then they'll just get the Central Alliance to fight for them.

Cyborg barbarians for the win! Pumped up with Altess-paid-for heavy weaponry!
Of course, they'll need a decent spacefleet to really compete against the Golgans, and if the Altess have lost their main warship production facilities, finding indies able and willing to whip up capital warships in short order may present a problem.

Naruni dude, Naruni.

[Anthar]

Plus the Altess just have to ask the CCW for assistance while they restock their military. With their money and automation, it won't take long.

[taalismn]

See if the Altess have a manpower problem then they'll just get the Central Alliance to fight for them.

Cyborg barbarians for the win! Pumped up with Altess-paid-for heavy weaponry!
Of course, they'll need a decent spacefleet to really compete against the Golgans, and if the Altess have lost their main warship production facilities, finding indies able and willing to whip up capital warships in short order may present a problem.

Naruni dude, Naruni.

Then we need more (commercially available) Naruni warship designs.

[azazel1024]

Hey! Happy days for interstellar mercenaries(provided they can survive the post-war economic crash from all those Altess cashing out to hire them)!!!

(We really need revised tables for creating Space Mercs, especially those specializing in starship combat).

In a future PW book I hope?
-Matt

[azazel1024]

The Altess may win, but if the planet disappearing takes the bulk of their reserve fleet along with most of their production facilities it is going to seriously handicap their forces.

Also, unless the Altess fleet is a lot bigger then I think it is, the Golgan Republik, even as 'reduced' as the republik has become, is several hundred times larger. The Altess basically have one planet, even as super rich as it is, can't field a fleet or at least I don't expect that it is fielding a fleet nearly as large as the Golgan's. The Altess effectively have their home system and a handful of others to defend and the Golgan's hundreds, so that does spread their fleet, but the Golgan's are likely to still be able to concentrate well over 10 to 1 odds against the Altess, let alone when Novus 9 dissapears.
-Matt

[rat_bastard]

Here's the thing about the disappearance of Novus IX, while the factories and training compound are on Novus IX they have a huge active fleet around Ramis. In addition they have a massive technical base in the station around the planet Alderensys. and their financial base is not on Novus IX.

First off, while the Altess don't know they are going to lose their military planet they will figure it out a few days before it happens. The reason for that is simple, the Altess have 10% more psychics then average and they are not idiots, so when enough Altess oracles clutch their heads and scream there will be a general evacuation from Novus IX. This will involve getting as many troops as possible into the fully functional ships in the store rooms, the dime-a-dozen Naruni Gear would be left behind to reappear at some other point in time.

At this point the Repbulik will attack (which the Altess will see coming) and no doubt be surprised to find a much larger than expected counter fleet of Armoria and get swatted harshly on the nose by the Altess.

It should be noted that while the guns will be manned by the experienced hands of Advocates (each ship will have a complete complement because they collapse and fit into the overhead luggage compartments.) the captains and officers of the fleet will be inexperienced and prone to make mistakes. Its unfortunately a childrens crusade, where Ensigns and Lieutenants find themselves taking on the duties of captains and the Armoria will see some of the greatest losses in centuries. However, with vastly superior weapons, fearless crews of disposable robots and nowhere to run I believe the Republik will run first.

This initial attack on the Altess will put the fear of death in the Altess and make them take things seriously, suddenly one of their greatest advantages is gone and they're hurt for the first time in ages. Naruni will get get large orders that they have to bid competitively with the Hartigal Combine and mercenaries will be hired to privateer Republik shipping and Foreign governments like the TGE will be given the option of put pressure on the Republik or face economic collapse.

With a desperate need for Marines and an Army and fleet and cybernetics tech lightyears ahead of the Central Alliance the Altess will make a simple deal to the Troops of the Alliance: Conversion and Ships for a term of service, a couple of cortex bombs and IFF computers in those cybernetics and ships to ensure ultimate compliance and the Altess will have an army of deadly cyborgs to fill out their need for front line troops.

[Khanibal]

Altess offer bounties of 10,000 for the head of every golgan grunt, and up for higher level officers. 100,000cr for every fighter destroyed. 1M for frigates up to 10M for the largest golgan capitol. Not to mention outright hire TGM (+50% over normal fees for maximum collateral damage).

[rat_bastard]

Altess offer bounties of 10,000 for the head of every golgan grunt, and up for higher level officers. 100,000cr for every fighter destroyed. 1M for frigates up to 10M for the largest golgan capitol. Not to mention outright hire TGM (+50% over normal fees for maximum collateral damage).

You don't get to be super rich by giving away money like that, they would tell various ministers of that they have to pull their various investments in TGE territory in order to pay for the defense of their system. They would point out that if the TGE took it upon themselves to carve out a section of Republik territory they would not have to close their businesses and in fact would have cause to invest further in the TGE.

[taalismn]

The "Golgans' in the future are really a bunch of Altess sitting around the other end of the paradox radio(having bought it from the desperate former owners who needed money to buy food) leading the past Golgans around by the nose..."Oh yeah, and after the Altess arsenal planet disappears? Send your main force to Sector 34.7, where you can step off and attack the undefended Altess homeworlds! Over!" "That oughta do it! Boy will THEY be surprised to find our main fleet on live fire exercises going on right there! Hee-hee! I remember that day fondly!"

[rat_bastard]

The "Golgans' in the future are really a bunch of Altess sitting around the other end of the paradox radio(having bought it from the desperate former owners who needed money to buy food) leading the past Golgans around by the nose..."Oh yeah, and after the Altess arsenal planet disappears? Send your main force to Sector 34.7, where you can step off and attack the undefended Altess homeworlds! Over!" "That oughta do it! Boy will THEY be surprised to find our main fleet on live fire exercises going on right there! Hee-hee! I remember that day fondly!"

better yet, its just an FTL radio to Altess control..

[glitterboy2098]

The Altess may win, but if the planet disappearing takes the bulk of their reserve fleet along with most of their production facilities it is going to seriously handicap their forces.

Also, unless the Altess fleet is a lot bigger then I think it is, the Golgan Republik, even as 'reduced' as the republik has become, is several hundred times larger. The Altess basically have one planet, even as super rich as it is, can't field a fleet or at least I don't expect that it is fielding a fleet nearly as large as the Golgan's. The Altess effectively have their home system and a handful of others to defend and the Golgan's hundreds, so that does spread their fleet, but the Golgan's are likely to still be able to concentrate well over 10 to 1 odds against the Altess, let alone when Novus 9 dissapears.
-Matt

sounds about right. it's a "Clans vs. inner Sphere" scenario. for those of you not familiar with Battletech, the clans are a groups of highly advanced (for the setting) militant quasi-tribes, while the inner sphere is the two thousand light year across "sphere" that forms the most densely colonized part of human space. there are colonies outside this sphere (the clans are one such), but most are fairly small and weak.

the clans have weapons and vehicles roughly twice as good as the inner sphere's stuff when the invade...but despite their technological advantage, they never had a hope of winning. because the clans had only about 3 dozen worlds, all sparesly populated (due to shortsighted population controls). their military numbered at best about a million some people, their total population only a couple billion all together.

the inner sphere has 3-4 thousand worlds, most with an average of 3 billion each. the different successor states, if all combined into one military, could feild a force of trillions. but the clans were convinced that if they took terra, all the rest would roll over and submit to their rule...

it was kinda stupid. the fact that they conquered the hundred of so planets they did was a small miracle in itself.. and once the inner sphere put aside their own conflicts and struck back, they rolled right over one of the clans, and then sued for peace with the rest...



in an Altess vs. Golgan war, the Altess might obliterate any Golgan military force they meet (barring any uptime meddling), but they'd never hope to actually pacify the entire Golgan holdings...and during the war more Golgan worlds will go independant, causing chaos for both sides...

[azazel1024]

Pretty much. The Altess might be able to defeat a Golgan fleet, possibly even several attacks. However, they'd never be able to take over the Republik and possibly not even be able to punch it out if they tried. They'd never be able to take any real offensive as it would draw down the Altess home fleet to much. They'd be able to have local superiority almost anywhere except critical systems and those critical systems would likely be to well protected for anything except a major portion of the Altess fleet, leaving their home system relatively defenseless.

The Altess have horrible amounts of wealth, but they don't have limitless production facilities and their population is pretty limited and very spoiled for the most part. A several day advanced notice probably wouldn't get even 10% of the gear, equipment and production facilities off Novus IX. Heck a couple of months advanced notice might let them get a sizable portion off planet, not a few days. Average ship lift is maybe in the 100,000t range for a really large freighter. How much stuff do you think they have on planet? hundreds of millions of tons when you take in to account production facilities, all of the robots, materials, etc, etc? Let alone the time to load it all. Most ships that size you can't just land on the planet, shove it in the hold and take off. That is thousands of surface to orbit trips by shuttles to load a ship that size completely. Etc, etc, ad nasuem.

Regardless of the warning, unless months and months ahead of time the Altess are going to loss the vast majority of the stuff on Novus IX. They may still retain enough quality edge to be decisive in a war against the Golgans, but they are going to be horrible shaken by Novus IX disappearing and it is going to make a very, very large hole in their fleet as almost all their reserve is going to be lost.

Altess have, lets call it, limitless money. They don't have limitless manpower, equipment or production facilities. You can give someone a trillion credits, but that doesn't get a ship that takes 18 months to produce produced faster then 18 months. Its going to take awhile for them to gear up and their limited manpower and experience is still going to handy cap them.
-Matt

[rat_bastard]

Pretty much. The Altess might be able to defeat a Golgan fleet, possibly even several attacks. However, they'd never be able to take over the Republik and possibly not even be able to punch it out if they tried. They'd never be able to take any real offensive as it would draw down the Altess home fleet to much. They'd be able to have local superiority almost anywhere except critical systems and those critical systems would likely be to well protected for anything except a major portion of the Altess fleet, leaving their home system relatively defenseless.

The Altess have horrible amounts of wealth, but they don't have limitless production facilities and their population is pretty limited and very spoiled for the most part. A several day advanced notice probably wouldn't get even 10% of the gear, equipment and production facilities off Novus IX. Heck a couple of months advanced notice might let them get a sizable portion off planet, not a few days. Average ship lift is maybe in the 100,000t range for a really large freighter. How much stuff do you think they have on planet? hundreds of millions of tons when you take in to account production facilities, all of the robots, materials, etc, etc? Let alone the time to load it all. Most ships that size you can't just land on the planet, shove it in the hold and take off. That is thousands of surface to orbit trips by shuttles to load a ship that size completely. Etc, etc, ad nasuem.

One, one of their main planets (Alderensys) has a ring that is one continuous space station ringing the planet, they also have a space elevator that leads from a planet almost to that system's sun. Its hard to believe that even 10% of their industrial capacity is on the surface of Novus IX. Two, they are decadent, not lazy. Three, all they have to do is tell the Advocates to pack up the planet as fast as possible and hop in the ships sitting in warehouses. The advocates will form a world wide network of advocates which will pack up the planet in order of priority (Altess, Ships, Factories, advocates, valuables and then Naruni gear.). Bear in mind that the Altess on Novus IX are not the soft "city" Altess, they are the military Altess, the normal Altess would not set foot on the planet without damn good reason.

Regardless of the warning, unless months and months ahead of time the Altess are going to loss the vast majority of the stuff on Novus IX. They may still retain enough quality edge to be decisive in a war against the Golgans, but they are going to be horrible shaken by Novus IX disappearing and it is going to make a very, very large hole in their fleet as almost all their reserve is going to be lost.

They may lose their primary military factories, but the ships are just sitting their loaded and ready to fly, anything that can get off planet will simply because of a combination of Advocates working together and the ability to commandeer fast massive Naruni cargo craft.

Altess have, lets call it, limitless money. They don't have limitless manpower, equipment or production facilities. You can give someone a trillion credits, but that doesn't get a ship that takes 18 months to produce produced faster then 18 months. Its going to take awhile for them to gear up and their limited manpower and experience is still going to handy cap them.
-Matt

Actually they pretty much have all of those things, they have massive amounts of robots, any mercenaries that accepts money, the most direct line to the Central Alliance (the Central Alliances are not exactly fond of the Altess but the Altess watch and shepard the central alliance closely), and several nations and mega-corps that hate the Republik far more than they have the TGE. As for ships, they have more than they can man with their own people, they just need to warehouse them somewhere else, and they have lots of places to put them.

[rat_bastard]

in an Altess vs. Golgan war, the Altess might obliterate any Golgan military force they meet (barring any uptime meddling), but they'd never hope to actually pacify the entire Golgan holdings...and during the war more Golgan worlds will go independant, causing chaos for both sides...

As I said before, they don't have to. The Golan Republik is in the red with Naruni bad and Naruni is the Altess BFF, they beat up a planet and call in the repo bots, Naruni Pays the Altess for acting as a collection agency and the Altess don't have to worry about the chore of holding misbehaving planets.

[azazel1024]

A ship in reserves doesn't sit there ready to launch at a moments notice. They generally receive minimal maitenance, tend not to sit with munitions, stores or fuel aboard, etc.

Even with a planet wide network of billions of robots, which Novus IX probably doesn't have, they can't send out an order and have all reserve ships with all the equipment and robots they can pack to the gunwales launched in an hour's time. It would probably take a few days to activate all the ships, get the loaded and launched and that still doesn't get most of the equipment off planet, just most of the ships. That would take relays of thousands of ships a couple of months, depending on just how far from Novus IX they'd have to travel to offload the equipment, to remove.

Also, there is the issue of message lag. How long in advance is someone going to know what is going to happen, then convince someone in authority to make a decision and then for that decision to be communicated, then orders coalasce in to action and then the action to begin producing results. For the most efficient system I can imagine you'd need at least a few days warning for anything to start happening (because it might take that long to get to the planet).

Industrial capacity might not be limited to Novus IX, but their primary military industrial capacity appears to be. They can retool the rest of their capacity, but that isn't necessarily going to produce instant new military equipment. Also a ship takes a certain amount of time to construct no matter how much money you throw at it. Its going to likely take a year or better, even if none of their military or industrial capacity is effected, to start seeing war construction from the time they begin laying down new ships. They could expand their capacity at a geometric rate, but those construction facilities are also going to take a certain amount of time to make, the worker robots as well, the tools to make the construction facilities, etc.

In 2-6 years the Altess Armoria could like swamp the Golgan Republik in some seriously high tech stuff and maybe even go ship to ship with them, not simply swamp them with quality, but also quantity, but for the time being they are a very, very tiny navy in comparison. Experience is also going to be a major issue. With just a handful of humans on any given ship they don't really have the manpower to rapidly expand their fleet (IE few trained officers to man a whole host of new ships).

The Golgans have the advantage on the offense, they HAVE to defend their planets. The Golgans have enough forces they can, if they are willing to take loses, force a fleet engagement and do an end run around the forces pinned and knock out the planets behind the defending fleets with a 2nd, or 3rd or 4th offensive fleet. That is the advantage that numbers have over quality.

History has generally shown that quantity has a quality all of its own. Have a lot more quantity then your opponent and, so long as not ineptly led, your almost guaranteed to win. Having 10 or 20, or 100 times the forces of the other side and you have dozens more avenues open for offensive and defensive operations.


The Naruni can easily take over a planet for being in arears on payments. The Altess can take out any single system or small collection. Taking on thousands of systems is a whole different ball game.
-Matt

[The Galactus Kid]

This thread is singlehandedly responsible for me starting to read all of the phase world books cover to cover, starting with Phase World this past weekend.

[rat_bastard]

A ship in reserves doesn't sit there ready to launch at a moments notice. They generally receive minimal maitenance, tend not to sit with munitions, stores or fuel aboard, etc.

I guess thats true of a normal ship but we are talking about some of the most sophisticated ships in existence, ships powered by compressed quark matter and maintenenced by robots that do not need to be paid or overseen. Making speculation on the capabilities of fictional ships is a bit silly don't you think?

Even with a planet wide network of billions of robots, which Novus IX probably doesn't have, they can't send out an order and have all reserve ships with all the equipment and robots they can pack to the gunwales lunched in an hours time. It would probably take a few days to activate all the ships, get the loaded and launched and that still doesn't get most of the equipment off planet, just most of the ships. That would take relays of thousands of ships a couple of months, depending on just how far from Novus IX they'd have to travel to offload the equipment, to remove.

Novus IX is listed as the main storeroom of war materials for the Armoria holding supplies for billions of troops, as the Advocates make up 2/3s of the Armoria's active military its fair to say their are billions of robots sitting in store rooms on Novus IX.

Also, there is the issue of message lag. How long in advance is someone going to know what is going to happen, then convince someone in authority to make a decision and then for that decision to be communicated, then orders coalasce in to action and then the action to begin producing results. For the most efficient system I can imagine you'd need at least a few days warning for anything to start happening (because it might take that long to get to the planet).

The minimum IQ of an Altess is 14, the average is 19, one quarter of all Altess are psychic and Clairvoyance is a regular psi-power that any of those 25% can get extrapolating from that I am going with the assumption that Altess are not idiots and are capable of reacting to warnings from psychics. In fact given their esoteric search for the cosmic forge, I would assume use of psychic prognostication is SOP for the Altess.

Industrial capacity might not be limited to Novus IX, but their primary military industrial capacity appears to be. They can retool the rest of their capacity, but that isn't necessarily going to produce instant new military equipment. Also a ship takes a certain amount of time to construct no matter how much money you throw at it. Its going to likely take a year or better, even if none of their military or industrial capacity is effected, to start seeing war construction from the time they begin laying down new ships. They could expand their capacity at a geometric rate, but those construction facilities are also going to take a certain amount of time to make, the worker robots as well, the tools to make the construction facilities, etc.

And here you have a point I agree with totally, while the Altess start with a huge head start one so huge that they may survive anything the Golans can throw at them. If they find themselves in a drawn out war after losing their primary military facilities there is a chance they could lose. But once again I am cashing in on the idea that they are 1 not idiots and 2 rich with some esoteric allies to fill in the lines and do the toe to toe slugging it out while the Altess use their vastly longer range weapons to great effect.

In 2-6 years the Altess Armoria could like swamp the Golgan Republik in some seriously high tech stuff and maybe even go ship to ship with them, not simply swamp them with quality, but also quantity, but for the time being they are a very, very tiny navy in comparison. Experience is also going to be a major issue. With just a handful of humans on any given ship they don't really have the manpower to rapidly expand their fleet (IE few trained officers to man a whole host of new ships).

Against any power bloc but the Republik this would be a much greater issue, but the Republik does not reward exceptional commanders, it punishes them for standing out. For jeebus sake, they promote people based on their ability to pass vision tests! you have to fill out your battle plan in triplicate before you are allowed to fire missiles! The Republik sends Bureaucrats to war, not Oficers and that shows.

The Golgans have the advantage on the offense, they HAVE to defend their planets. The Golgans have enough forces they can, if they are willing to take loses, force a fleet engagement and do an end run around the forces pinned and knock out the planets behind the defending fleets with a 2nd, or 3rd or 4th offensive fleet. That is the advantage that numbers have over quality.

The Golan's are also cowards that are desperately painting themselves into a corner, more nations hate them than hate the Altess and the Altess's checkbooks aren't rubber. If you where a merc looking for work which would you go with? The Guys that make you file every battle plan in triplicate and might not be able to pay you or the rich people who just want to defend their homes?

History has generally shown that quantity has a quality all of its own. Have a lot more quantity then your opponent and, so long as not ineptly led, your almost guaranteed to win. Having 10 or 20, or 100 times the forces of the other side and you have dozens more avenues open for offensive and defensive operations.


The Naruni can easily take over a planet for being in arears on payments. The Altess can take out any single system or small collection. Taking on thousands of systems is a whole different ball game.
-Matt

monkey potato paisley.

[azazel1024]

I think your strongest arguement is on the Golgan's leadership or lack there-of carrying the day on the battlefield for the Altess. If the Golgans really had exceptional leaders even at just Squadron command levels (not even captaincies or lower ranks) I really do think, if the Altess were a bit off the mark responding to Novus IX disappearing or just didn't have enough warning, that the Altess would lose.

As it stands I think you may well be right that the total lack of anything but mediocraty (at best) in 95% of their commanders as well as plenty outright cowardace is going to cause the Golgan's to get mauled badly when they go up against the Altess. I still think the Altess are also going to get pretty banged up, also at the very least. When your 100 to 1 bad things are going to happen.
-Matt

[KLM]

Something to the quality vs. quantity debate:

Altess - as well as being dirty rich - really fond of the game of interstellar intelligence. The "Psionic Forecast Service" is included.

Therefore if the Golgans mobilise, the Altess will know and react. Edit: Mind you, those guys are around for millenia, successfully
facing those quantites with their quality.

In case of war, many Golgan key personell will be assassinated, as well as many worlds of the Republik will see it (someone
will be there to show them ) as a good time to separate, and so on.

Adios
KLM

[taalismn]

Hmmmmm....Double Whammy, then....The Republik goes even FURTHER towards collapse, and the Altess cash-out to hire mercenaries to make up for the loss of their Novus assets(as well as as to rebuild and redistribute replacement military assets) causing a 3G-wide economic crash....not good...

[Khanibal]

I don't understand. If the Golgans are on the verge of social-economic collapse NOW, how did they get it together 400 years in the future to contact their present?

[KLM]

I don't understand. If the Golgans are on the verge of social-economic collapse NOW, how did they get it together 400 years in the future to contact their present?

After a collapse, 400 years are a looong time. IRL examples are Germany - defeated in WWI, torn in two after WWII (after defeated),
yet they are the engine behind the EU. All this in a single century. Power ebbs and flows.
---------------

As for demon planets (and star hives and dominators and so on...) most powers has to be ready for them any time.

For the Dynasty - having such a few planets - it is exceptionally true.

So, they have to have a "ready" task force or two just in case.

Add Clairvoyance to the picture (again: Altess have a +10% for having psionic... ), which rather ensures nightmarish
visions around the Dynasty well before the arrival of such menace...

Adios
KLM

[Khanibal]

Whoa! The Golgans are going to attack the Altess with a demon planet? Where'd they get that?

[KLM]

Add Clairvoyance to the picture (again: Altess have a +10% for having psionic... ), which rather ensures nightmarish
visions around the Dynasty well before the arrival of such menace...

The fact that the Altess have more psychics than humans makes things MORE bleak for them, not less. ANY psychic coming into mental-contact with one has to save vs insanity(at a 16, and no bonuses are applicable), psychics are at a -3 to save vs possession against it, and even with Mindblock Autodefense have to save or go catatonic(at least they get a +3 in they have MbAd). "Nightmarish visions" wouldn't be the half of it. Imagine all those psi's the Altess have suddenly going mad(and those that aren't going insane are either catatonic or possessed). And how much warning would those Clairvoyants have, considering it moves at FTL speeds? And that's assuming it isn't rifted-in by some crazy Ultrovian Shifters messing with a ritual that's waaaaay beyond their understanding.

Well, that is a bit over the hill.

As for Clairvoyance, it shows a future. Days, sometimes even years to come. Yes, even before those ultrovians decide to
summon one up.

Also, Demon planets supposed to drag in starships. Maybe the one packed with K-Hex too. Banzaii!!!

Adios
KLM

[rat_bastard]

As for demon planets (and star hives and dominators and so on...) most powers has to be ready for them any time.

Ok, Demon Planets aren't anything like Star Hives or Dominators, first of all. At least with the other two there is footage.

Nobody knows if Demon Planets are real or completely myth.

How do you prepare to battle something you have no intel on, and aren't even sure it exists in the first place?

So, they have to have a "ready" task force or two just in case.

That's nice, but... Have you seen the stats on the Demon Planet? It's MINIMUM diameter is over twice that of Earth.
Even with the Armoria's beautifully-engineered ships, those would have to be HUGE task-forces. Demon Planets take half damage from all sources of energy (and considering that the Armoria's ships are armed with only energy weapons and missiles, this means a severe reduction in the amount of punishment the Armoria could deal out), and can shoot a blast of energy from any of their leyline nexuses (that they use to break up planets so they can eat them).

Add Clairvoyance to the picture (again: Altess have a +10% for having psionic... ), which rather ensures nightmarish
visions around the Dynasty well before the arrival of such menace...

The fact that the Altess have more psychics than humans makes things MORE bleak for them, not less. ANY psychic coming into mental-contact with one has to save vs insanity(at a 16, and no bonuses are applicable), psychics are at a -3 to save vs possession against it, and even with Mindblock Autodefense have to save or go catatonic(at least they get a +3 in they have MbAd). "Nightmarish visions" wouldn't be the half of it. Imagine all those psi's the Altess have suddenly going mad(and those that aren't going insane are either catatonic or possessed). And how much warning would those Clairvoyants have, considering it moves at FTL speeds? And that's assuming it isn't rifted-in by some crazy Ultrovian Shifters messing with a ritual that's waaaaay beyond their understanding.

the Altess have that free floating space elevator that makes a Mass Driver look like a cap gun, they can shoot MDC rounds the size of starships at FTL speeds at a demon Planet.

In addition, the Armoria's ships are much much faster than the Demon Planet and much much smaller, so while the demon planet so the planet has 12 energy blasts he's going after wasps with machine guns that can evade and take a few of the shots the demon planet can dish out.

Also, assuming the Armoira does not have mass driver satellites ringing their important worlds is asinine at best.

[Braden Campbell]

Is anyone planning on dragging Jelko Rodula into this hypothetical cluster **** ?

[Nekira Sudacne]

I personally don't get the whole "Their Military planet will disapear" thing. I even re-read the section and I still don't get it. No offence to you, Branden, but it just struck me as a cheesy plot device. "Oh, the Altess are Rich, Immortal, and have everything they could ever want in as a near-perfect Utopia (for them) as any race of the three galaxies has ever dreamed of.

Naturally, we have to Gut their defences and leave them vunerable to an attack by a race of thugs, because, gosh darn it, we can't have Super-High-Tech races actually enjoy their advances in this game. That's just not good drama!


(Yes, i'm exsagerating for the sake of effect, but the point more or less stands.)

[azazel1024]

I think the point isn't that the Golgans are going to gut the Altess, I think the point is that it will later be used as a plot device to change the Altess world view, how they work in to the politics of the 3G, etc. Suddenly the 'benign' super rich Altess maybe become agressors, or they back a specific faction, etc, etc. All because they lost a bunch of their military strength and had to desperately beat off the paranoid 'thugish' Golgans.
-Matt

[Nekira Sudacne]

I think the point isn't that the Golgans are going to gut the Altess, I think the point is that it will later be used as a plot device to change the Altess world view, how they work in to the politics of the 3G, etc. Suddenly the 'benign' super rich Altess maybe become agressors, or they back a specific faction, etc, etc. All because they lost a bunch of their military strength and had to desperately beat off the paranoid 'thugish' Golgans.
-Matt

Again, I still don't see the point from a game designers perspective.

I guess the problem I have is the Altess still fill a specific roll, and after what you discribe, the role changes and there's nothing else in the setting to fill that role. There are already countless War-hardened races in the three galaxies. It was nice to have one that wasn't.

And yes, yes, I know I can do whatever I want in my games. But still, from a designers point, he's limiting his own setting by removing a specific type/drama of race and changing it without anything to replace the current position.

[DhAkael]

I personally don't get the whole "Their Military planet will disapear" thing. I even re-read the section and I still don't get it. No offence to you, Branden, but it just struck me as a cheesy plot device. "Oh, the Altess are Rich, Immortal, and have everything they could ever want in as a near-perfect Utopia (for them) as any race of the three galaxies has ever dreamed of.

Naturally, we have to Gut their defences and leave them vunerable to an attack by a race of thugs, because, gosh darn it, we can't have Super-High-Tech races actually enjoy their advances in this game. That's just not good drama!


(Yes, i'm exsagerating for the sake of effect, but the point more or less stands.)

Y'know, for once (-Gasp- ) I agree 100% with Nekira on a subject.
..yeah, I'm suprised as well.
LOL!
Regardless, the whole deus-ex anti-munchkina plot bomb is kinda irksome. Like, wouldn't the Altess have been aware WELL in advance that their stockpile planet/solar-system was gonna go piffle?
They ARE the richest AND smartest of the Tri-Galactic canon races after all. You'd figure they'd have a small army of Shifters and other arcane advisors on retainer.

[Khanibal]

Not to mention a Temporal Wizard or two.

[Havoc]

Sorry but the Altess are suppose to be intelligent, so why would they not have a plan in place just in case the planet disappears. To me you would think they would start stockpiling additional supplies across there space close to the amount that would disappear.
Really what military command would put all there surplus in one spot when they know there is a chance that it could disappear or be destroyed, none would. It would cost them more money to buy more surplus but do you think they would care about that, they would just have a massive surplus that they could retool for a couple hundred years or more without costing them to much or worry of running out.

[KLM]

While more or less agreeing with Nekira...

The Altess are "here", for millenia. They are intelligent (not that the poor Golgans aren't above human level too, statwise, but that is
another matter), plus their social structure (rival Houses) also suggest a defense strategy standing on "several legs".

- One is firepower, pure and simple. Politics without armed forces... In that matter, they have to have a rather
large fleet on standby 24/7 - because in the 3Galaxis there are threats that cannot be countered otherwise.
Dominators, Star Hives, Sploogies, Demon Planets, Gene-Tech/Splicers etc. just pop up, and the Altess cannot
afford any losses.

- Other "leg" is economics. With a bit of exagerration, no country with a MacDonalds ever declared war on the US.

- Third one are allies. Whether they are allied for a cause (CCW) or for cash (mercenaries, NE)...

- Fourth one is intelligence. Information gathering, sabotage, assasination, supporting rebellions, legal lobbist activity -
business as usual.

Now add magic and the already-mentioned Altess psionic potential (they have about 150% of psionic populace compared
to RIFTS Earth humanity), to all branches.

The end result is, that the loss of a stockpile planet will not leave them "naked". They already have to have forces on standby,
have a chance to foresee (both with Clairvoyance and from "humint"...errr... "golgint") it, as well as predict in time and react
to a Golgan mobilisation.

Adios
KLM

[taalismn]

Yep...under all those gold-plated hovercars and luxury yachts is some serious megadamage plating, military grade powerplants, forcesheidling, and the best concealed weaponry the wealthiest beings in the 3G can buy...
Even if the Golgans manage to REACH an Altess world, the Poor Bloody Infantry are going to be annihilated by the Golf Carts of Doom when the Golgans try landing in those manicured Altess lawns.

[azazel1024]

Sure the Altess have tons of power politically and economically, but their military is pretty darned tiny. I doubt they could field even 1/10th the fleet of the UWW, let alone TGE or CCW. Probably even a pretty small fraction of the Golgans. The technology of the Altess might make up for a bunch of it, but frankly the Altess are damned inexperienced in war. No one is crazy enough to attack them. The Golgans might be rather lead from behind and run while the running is good type, but they at least have experience and a vast quantity edge.

I think the Altess will win as well, but I don't think it would be anywhere near as close as you think. Also the Golgan first citizen is whiping the rest of his race in to shape. They might well have some decent admirals and captains in their fleet by the time they take on the Altess.

The Altess Armoria is bad ass, but not all Altess are. They mostly have robots to do the fighting for them, not Altess themselves. What, maybe 1 in 1,000 Altess are actually in the military? Probably less then that, maybe 1 in 10,000. They have a few thousand Altess, all officers leading a few hundred million robots. Robots that aren't true AI it seems. Oh and officers with no real experience other then in training wars. The Altess themselves are not war like in anyway. Naive, no, but warlike with a massive military in comparison to their economy, also no. Huge military for their population, but their GDP is probably a quarter the size of the TGE's (200m Altess compared to several trillion TGE citizens, so yeah the per capita is, shall we say, in favor of the Altess).
-Matt

[rat_bastard]

While I think the Golgans will get an arse-pounding, the Altess will feel it more. Every Altess death will hurt. There's only 100 million Altess, so it won't take long for them to lose the will to fight. Good thing the CCW has their back. What I want to know is how the Omegan Order is going to exploit the situation.

very good points all, very good points.

[KLM]

Sure the Altess have tons of power politically and economically, but their military is pretty darned tiny. I doubt they could field even 1/10th the fleet of the UWW, let alone TGE or CCW. Probably even a pretty small fraction of the Golgans. The technology of the Altess might make up for a bunch of it, but frankly the Altess are damned inexperienced in war.
(...)
-Matt

Dead wrong. They repelled a Golgan invasion a few hundred years ago, as it is mentioned in the Anvil book, and they remember
it as yesterday.
You know, those guys are practically immortal - so about 99% of personel who won against a much stronger Republik is
probably still in the Armoria.

You know, for example fighter jocks, who shot it out with biplanes, Zeroes, and MiGs (from 3 to 31) in one person and still active.

Adios
KLM

[azazel1024]

Sure the Altess have tons of power politically and economically, but their military is pretty darned tiny. I doubt they could field even 1/10th the fleet of the UWW, let alone TGE or CCW. Probably even a pretty small fraction of the Golgans. The technology of the Altess might make up for a bunch of it, but frankly the Altess are damned inexperienced in war.
(...)
-Matt

Dead wrong. They repelled a Golgan invasion a few hundred years ago, as it is mentioned in the Anvil book, and they remember
it as yesterday.
You know, those guys are practically immortal - so about 99% of personel who won against a much stronger Republik is
probably still in the Armoria.

You know, for example fighter jocks, who shot it out with biplanes, Zeroes, and MiGs (from 3 to 31) in one person and still active.

Adios
KLM

Who haven't been in a shooting war in centuries. Sure plenty of them are still around, but plenty of them have moved on to do something else for now, or are just rusty. I don't care if you are immortal or not, if you don't really use a skill for a few centuries, you're going to be rusty and maybe forget some stuff. Frankly most are probably on the bored side with their job in the Armoria. It doesn't mean they won't knock off the rust quickly, but it isn't the same as having very current experience. There are also still plenty of Armoria officers who are 'newbies', IE they only joined up in the last century or two.

When you have a ship with say 20 Altess on board, half a dozen newbie makes up for quite a bit of the non-robot crew. Robots are also pretty darned good, but being non-AI still a little short on the imaginitive side of things.

As I mentioned though, I think the Altess will overcome most of this, but I think they are going to feel it in a big way when the shooting war happens. The Golgans have a large enough fleet that if they were willing to press home attacks and take serious losses they could sterilize several planets before the Altess could stop them. When you are out numbered 5, or 10 or 20 to 1 you can only do so much to stop a determined force from getting to your planet and saturating it with nukes and antimatter missiles. I just don't think the Golgans are that dedicated or suicidal. If they were though, the Altess would be in serious, serious trouble.
-Matt