Host Armour in Rifts Earth

[Lt. Holmes]

While the folly of bringing a Rifts-type character into Splicers is made quite clear in the main book, I'm deeply intrigued by the idea of going the other way around. So here's the set-up: a moderatly experienced Dreadguard (level 5) is summarily dumped into Rifts Earth. How would he cope and how would the rules work out?

* His living weapons (the handheld kind) have no access to a nutrient pool and would soon die.
* His host armour is capable of feeding on its own and would survive.
* No Engineer to repair/upgrade the armour.
* Culture shock as he goes from being the apex of his society to a mere D-Bee and spat upon by most people he encounters.
* The nanoplague. What ways would it react to its new environment? How careful would the Dreadguard have to be to avoid metal in a world that revolves around guns, 'borgs, and 'bots?

I have my own idea about the lack of an Engineer: the host armour would be affected directly by magical energy pervading the planet. Every level-up, the player would have a chance to spend accumulated Bio-E points, but also runs the risk of the GM rolling a die and deciding that the host armour randomly mutates on its own and grows a new bio-tech system.

I'd really like to hear your thoughts on this idea.

[runebeo]

Splicers know how to take care of their equipment. Nutrient pool should be easy for one of the characters Genetics, Biology, Chemistry or too some degree Operate Bio-equipment. Our Outrider uses the blood of his Dracos as nutrient pool and a few other ingredients.

The pc came from a high tech world with some idea of alien lifeforms after all the bio-tech came from space. Theses guys ride scary monsters and fight giant robots, you think elves, dwarfs and wolfen will shock them too much.

Most of Splicers characters are pretty powerful at low levels so they'll be fine with the upgrades they have and maybe a friendly Shifter could open a portal so they can pickup some upgrades if their house don't consider them deserters like my buddy's house does. Maybe their owed a favour from an Engineer they helped out in the past.

nanoplague is a fun weakness to play with, just feed him with wooden utensils and run a metal detector around his tent from time to time. Its not that hard to play to stay away from metal in the wilderness and theses guys been living for decades with this curse.

As for mutating armor sure, but I'd let the upgrades be random
since host armors are powerhouses to start, too much player control will cause some unbalancing.

[Zer0 Kay]

If you don't want the possibility of nanite infection to other humans and they will cross from one person to another. You could always deem that the mystic corridor of the rift that got him to Rifts goes through the Nightspawn dimension first.

[keir451]

Even easier bring thru a Splicers Great House. The nanoplague actually would not (IMO) continue to work in Rifts Earth as it's controlled by NEXUS. I'm currently playing a Pack Master who serves a House that was rifted to Chaos Earth, and we're doing OK so far made a few friends (US Army, NEMA) saved civilians from demons, etc. Check the Splicers board for this one (this is the Great House my chara. serves) [url][http://forums.palladium-megaverse.com/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=106778/url].

[Lt. Holmes]

Splicers know how to take care of their equipment. Nutrient pool should be easy for one of the characters Genetics, Biology, Chemistry or too some degree Operate Bio-equipment. Our Outrider uses the blood of his Dracos as nutrient pool and a few other ingredients.

Really? I always thought the nutrient pool was part of the Engineer organism and rooted the same place as the Engineer.

As for the nanoplauge, what about making the human infected with it still in danger, but his HA is not? By that, I mean that the Dreadguard could use his HA as a sort of space/environment suit that would allow him to enter human towns and villages without worrying about every sliver of metal.

[Zer0 Kay]

Even easier bring thru a Splicers Great House. The nanoplague actually would not (IMO) continue to work in Rifts Earth as it's controlled by NEXUS. I'm currently playing a Pack Master who serves a House that was rifted to Chaos Earth, and we're doing OK so far made a few friends (US Army, NEMA) saved civilians from demons, etc. Check the Splicers board for this one (this is the Great House my chara. serves) [url][http://forums.palladium-megaverse.com/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=106778/url].

Where does it say that the nanites aren't self sufficient? They don't replicate but they don't just stop working without a signal.

[Zer0 Kay]

Splicers know how to take care of their equipment. Nutrient pool should be easy for one of the characters Genetics, Biology, Chemistry or too some degree Operate Bio-equipment. Our Outrider uses the blood of his Dracos as nutrient pool and a few other ingredients.

Really? I always thought the nutrient pool was part of the Engineer organism and rooted the same place as the Engineer.

As for the nanoplauge, what about making the human infected with it still in danger, but his HA is not? By that, I mean that the Dreadguard could use his HA as a sort of space/environment suit that would allow him to enter human towns and villages without worrying about every sliver of metal.

How would it affect one organism and not pass on to the other? The only programming the little turds have after all are perform a random affect if organism touches metal and if host touches another organism infect it.

[Lt. Holmes]

How would it affect one organism and not pass on to the other? The only programming the little turds have after all are perform a random affect if organism touches metal and if host touches another organism infect it.

Yeah, I know. Stupid NEXUS, designing a lethal plague like that! Bad machine! *shakes finger*

As for leaving the HA unaffected, that was grasping at straws to come up with a way of letting the Dreadguard enter into the towns and villages of Rifts Earth without being paranoid. Hell, even sitting around the nightly campfire with Rifts-normal adventurers would be an exercise in caution (metal spoons, water canteens, metal firestarters, metal...).

Also, I thought it would be nifty if the only way the Dreadguard had to consistantly interact with other people would be through his HA. His very alien-looking HA. As I said in my OP, the Dreadguard and the elite of their society, and to be treated like that by mere commoners? Could be interesting from a role-play perspective.

[keir451]

Even easier bring thru a Splicers Great House. The nanoplague actually would not (IMO) continue to work in Rifts Earth as it's controlled by NEXUS. I'm currently playing a Pack Master who serves a House that was rifted to Chaos Earth, and we're doing OK so far made a few friends (US Army, NEMA) saved civilians from demons, etc. Check the Splicers board for this one (this is the Great House my chara. serves) [url][http://forums.palladium-megaverse.com/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=106778/url].

Where does it say that the nanites aren't self sufficient? They don't replicate but they don't just stop working without a signal.

True, but there's also nothing that says it ISN'T controlled by Nexus, you can use it either way.

[Shark_Force]

nanites within a person will gradually be passed from the system, and barring continuous additions of further nanites will eventually become so diluted as to have no significant effect.

so unless the nanites self-replicate, as far as i'm concerned the splicer will be completely clean within a month or two, most likely.

[Zer0 Kay]

How would it affect one organism and not pass on to the other? The only programming the little turds have after all are perform a random affect if organism touches metal and if host touches another organism infect it.

Yeah, I know. Stupid NEXUS, designing a lethal plague like that! Bad machine! *shakes finger*

As for leaving the HA unaffected, that was grasping at straws to come up with a way of letting the Dreadguard enter into the towns and villages of Rifts Earth without being paranoid. Hell, even sitting around the nightly campfire with Rifts-normal adventurers would be an exercise in caution (metal spoons, water canteens, metal firestarters, metal...).

Also, I thought it would be nifty if the only way the Dreadguard had to consistantly interact with other people would be through his HA. His very alien-looking HA. As I said in my OP, the Dreadguard and the elite of their society, and to be treated like that by mere commoners? Could be interesting from a role-play perspective.

Say the Dreadguard did go through the Nightspawn dimension's mirror wall which destroys all... I can't remember if it is all metal or all technology, that doesn't mean that the Dreadguard will know. So it would still be quite possible for the DG to be all paranoid.

[Zer0 Kay]

Even easier bring thru a Splicers Great House. The nanoplague actually would not (IMO) continue to work in Rifts Earth as it's controlled by NEXUS. I'm currently playing a Pack Master who serves a House that was rifted to Chaos Earth, and we're doing OK so far made a few friends (US Army, NEMA) saved civilians from demons, etc. Check the Splicers board for this one (this is the Great House my chara. serves) [url][http://forums.palladium-megaverse.com/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=106778/url].

Where does it say that the nanites aren't self sufficient? They don't replicate but they don't just stop working without a signal.

True, but there's also nothing that says it ISN'T controlled by Nexus, you can use it either way.

Tru nuff, but if it was then you figure Nexus would know where all the humans were as it should be easy enough to track where each of her little buggers are since she has to always tell them what to do. Eh?

[Zer0 Kay]

nanites within a person will gradually be passed from the system, and barring continuous additions of further nanites will eventually become so diluted as to have no significant effect.

so unless the nanites self-replicate, as far as i'm concerned the splicer will be completely clean within a month or two, most likely.

Where does it say they get passed? Unless your talking maybe onto another organic.

[Mercdog]

nanites within a person will gradually be passed from the system, and barring continuous additions of further nanites will eventually become so diluted as to have no significant effect.

so unless the nanites self-replicate, as far as i'm concerned the splicer will be completely clean within a month or two, most likely.

I actually had a few thoughts about this over the weekend and came up with a theory.

While I know the Splicer book states that the nannites do not self replicate, I agree that they would eventually simply leave the splicers system over time on Rifts Earth. Either by naturally leaving the splicers system or through infecting any metal he comes into contact with.

My theory is that the nannites do replicate, but can only do so within the environment of the organic being that serves as their host. Thus the reason that the nannites do not spread, and can only affect small pieces of metal and technology (as per the Splicers book) while on Rifts earth, is that the nannite colony within the splicer must maintain a minimum level within their host organism or the host's metabolism will expel the nanobot plague.

[Shark_Force]

nanites within a person will gradually be passed from the system, and barring continuous additions of further nanites will eventually become so diluted as to have no significant effect.

so unless the nanites self-replicate, as far as i'm concerned the splicer will be completely clean within a month or two, most likely.

Where does it say they get passed? Unless your talking maybe onto another organic.

real life says they get passed. anything in your body's system will eventually get passed through, provided you live long enough. for example, if you drink a beer today, and then don't drink a beer (or other alcoholic drink) tomorrow, there will be more alcohol in your blood today than there is tomorrow. if you give it a few days, you will essentially have no alcohol in your blood (well, possibly your blood naturally has some low level of alcohol in it, i'm really not sure; but it won't have any of the alcohol from the beer, in any case)

your body is specifically designed to expel foreign objects and substances that it doesn't specifically use for food. you have an entire immune system that does nothing but tell stuff that is foreign to the body to get out. therefore, if you don't constantly replenish the supply, eventually they will all be expelled. perhaps through blood loss, perhaps through your sweat, perhaps simply from exhaling, coughing, sneezing, vomiting, or whilst urinating or defecating, perhaps killed by white blood cells, but they are going to be gradually destroyed or expelled from your body one way or another, and unless you add new ones, you are eventually going to run out of nanites.

[Anthar]

PG 19, second column, first paragraph says that the nanobots are not self replicating and though I can't remember where it was written I believe that the Machine must manufacture more and spread it into the environment to maintain the plague.

[Zer0 Kay]

nanites within a person will gradually be passed from the system, and barring continuous additions of further nanites will eventually become so diluted as to have no significant effect.

so unless the nanites self-replicate, as far as i'm concerned the splicer will be completely clean within a month or two, most likely.

Where does it say they get passed? Unless your talking maybe onto another organic.

real life says they get passed. anything in your body's system will eventually get passed through, provided you live long enough. for example, if you drink a beer today, and then don't drink a beer (or other alcoholic drink) tomorrow, there will be more alcohol in your blood today than there is tomorrow. if you give it a few days, you will essentially have no alcohol in your blood (well, possibly your blood naturally has some low level of alcohol in it, i'm really not sure; but it won't have any of the alcohol from the beer, in any case)

your body is specifically designed to expel foreign objects and substances that it doesn't specifically use for food. you have an entire immune system that does nothing but tell stuff that is foreign to the body to get out. therefore, if you don't constantly replenish the supply, eventually they will all be expelled. perhaps through blood loss, perhaps through your sweat, perhaps simply from exhaling, coughing, sneezing, vomiting, or whilst urinating or defecating, perhaps killed by white blood cells, but they are going to be gradually destroyed or expelled from your body one way or another, and unless you add new ones, you are eventually going to run out of nanites.

yeah and you have a whole boy of muscle and bone that tells that robot not to stomp on your head. equal mass machine and organic the machine will probably win... untill it wears out. I'm pretty sure the nanites were made wit the human immune system in mind.

bad analogy, alcohol doesn't combat your system, it only poisons it.

[Zer0 Kay]

PG 19, second column, first paragraph says that the nanobots are not self replicating and though I can't remember where it was written I believe that the Machine must manufacture more and spread it into the environment to maintain the plague.

Yup I know that, but that doesn't mean that it is due to the little guys getting passed, at least not until they "die". You are correct on seeing the part about the machine having to continually manufacture more. It could also be because they can't be spread by touch and therefore there must be a constant new supply for all new life born onto the planet.

[Zer0 Kay]

nanites within a person will gradually be passed from the system, and barring continuous additions of further nanites will eventually become so diluted as to have no significant effect.

so unless the nanites self-replicate, as far as i'm concerned the splicer will be completely clean within a month or two, most likely.

Where does it say they get passed? Unless your talking maybe onto another organic.

real life says they get passed. anything in your body's system will eventually get passed through, provided you live long enough. for example, if you drink a beer today, and then don't drink a beer (or other alcoholic drink) tomorrow, there will be more alcohol in your blood today than there is tomorrow. if you give it a few days, you will essentially have no alcohol in your blood (well, possibly your blood naturally has some low level of alcohol in it, i'm really not sure; but it won't have any of the alcohol from the beer, in any case)

your body is specifically designed to expel foreign objects and substances that it doesn't specifically use for food. you have an entire immune system that does nothing but tell stuff that is foreign to the body to get out. therefore, if you don't constantly replenish the supply, eventually they will all be expelled. perhaps through blood loss, perhaps through your sweat, perhaps simply from exhaling, coughing, sneezing, vomiting, or whilst urinating or defecating, perhaps killed by white blood cells, but they are going to be gradually destroyed or expelled from your body one way or another, and unless you add new ones, you are eventually going to run out of nanites.

I should have said, no it doesn't. Real life says innert matter gets passed, all active "agents" must be faught and destroyed first. The only thin real life has to compare nanites to is viruses, and if AIDS wreaks havoc with the immune system a virus programmed to do specific things would be far more efficient at combatting our immune system, and more capable if it is physically designed to do so.

[Shark_Force]

nanites within a person will gradually be passed from the system, and barring continuous additions of further nanites will eventually become so diluted as to have no significant effect.

so unless the nanites self-replicate, as far as i'm concerned the splicer will be completely clean within a month or two, most likely.

Where does it say they get passed? Unless your talking maybe onto another organic.

real life says they get passed. anything in your body's system will eventually get passed through, provided you live long enough. for example, if you drink a beer today, and then don't drink a beer (or other alcoholic drink) tomorrow, there will be more alcohol in your blood today than there is tomorrow. if you give it a few days, you will essentially have no alcohol in your blood (well, possibly your blood naturally has some low level of alcohol in it, i'm really not sure; but it won't have any of the alcohol from the beer, in any case)

your body is specifically designed to expel foreign objects and substances that it doesn't specifically use for food. you have an entire immune system that does nothing but tell stuff that is foreign to the body to get out. therefore, if you don't constantly replenish the supply, eventually they will all be expelled. perhaps through blood loss, perhaps through your sweat, perhaps simply from exhaling, coughing, sneezing, vomiting, or whilst urinating or defecating, perhaps killed by white blood cells, but they are going to be gradually destroyed or expelled from your body one way or another, and unless you add new ones, you are eventually going to run out of nanites.

I should have said, no it doesn't. Real life says innert matter gets passed, all active "agents" must be faught and destroyed first. The only thin real life has to compare nanites to is viruses, and if AIDS wreaks havoc with the immune system a virus programmed to do specific things would be far more efficient at combatting our immune system, and more capable if it is physically designed to do so.

no, they're not magic, they should abide by real life laws. you can't just tell a nanobot to magically detect when it's being expelled from the system. you likewise can't just magically make it have an infinite power supply. the body will not be 100% unsuccessful at purging the nanites, and so gradually, the nanites WILL be purged. AIDS destroys the human immune system and has very obvious effects. if the nanites did that, we'd know, because humanity would be dead.

there is going to be some degree of lost nanites no matter what. it's a simple law. they are subject to entropy just like everything else. without something to replace them, they are going to gradually be destroyed, period. that's how things work in real life. they would have to have some means of sensing when they're removed from the body of their host, and then somehow get back to the host, and because they're such tiny robots they can't have that kind of sensory range or mobility.

[Zer0 Kay]

nanites within a person will gradually be passed from the system, and barring continuous additions of further nanites will eventually become so diluted as to have no significant effect.

so unless the nanites self-replicate, as far as i'm concerned the splicer will be completely clean within a month or two, most likely.

Where does it say they get passed? Unless your talking maybe onto another organic.

real life says they get passed. anything in your body's system will eventually get passed through, provided you live long enough. for example, if you drink a beer today, and then don't drink a beer (or other alcoholic drink) tomorrow, there will be more alcohol in your blood today than there is tomorrow. if you give it a few days, you will essentially have no alcohol in your blood (well, possibly your blood naturally has some low level of alcohol in it, i'm really not sure; but it won't have any of the alcohol from the beer, in any case). So who made you the expert on what kind of sensors can be put on a nanite? Especially from a super advance world that got nearly destroyed by a super advanced computer that can freaking rearrange the plates of the planet?

your body is specifically designed to expel foreign objects and substances that it doesn't specifically use for food. you have an entire immune system that does nothing but tell stuff that is foreign to the body to get out. therefore, if you don't constantly replenish the supply, eventually they will all be expelled. perhaps through blood loss, perhaps through your sweat, perhaps simply from exhaling, coughing, sneezing, vomiting, or whilst urinating or defecating, perhaps killed by white blood cells, but they are going to be gradually destroyed or expelled from your body one way or another, and unless you add new ones, you are eventually going to run out of nanites.

I should have said, no it doesn't. Real life says innert matter gets passed, all active "agents" must be faught and destroyed first. The only thin real life has to compare nanites to is viruses, and if AIDS wreaks havoc with the immune system a virus programmed to do specific things would be far more efficient at combatting our immune system, and more capable if it is physically designed to do so.

no, they're not magic, they should abide by real life laws. you can't just tell a nanobot to magically detect when it's being expelled from the system. you likewise can't just magically make it have an infinite power supply. the body will not be 100% unsuccessful at purging the nanites, and so gradually, the nanites WILL be purged. AIDS destroys the human immune system and has very obvious effects. if the nanites did that, we'd know, because humanity would be dead.

there is going to be some degree of lost nanites no matter what. it's a simple law. they are subject to entropy just like everything else. without something to replace them, they are going to gradually be destroyed, period. that's how things work in real life. they would have to have some means of sensing when they're removed from the body of their host, and then somehow get back to the host, and because they're such tiny robots they can't have that kind of sensory range or mobility.

Did I say they were magic? If a nanite can't tell the difference in organ walls and the various types of dermus then it isn't worth a crap. Yeah, so lets look at how the Rifts nanites work if they didn't know where they were then how would they find the wound and repair it? So that is Rifts nanites which would be inferior to that which could be produced by a machine that was created by a culture more advanced than Golden Age (Chaos Earth) Earth, and has far better knowledge of how to program a machine than any person or even ARCHIE III. It is likely that as an intelligent design most don't live in the fluids only using it for a transit system and they'd probably be massed mostly near the hands and feet. I never said they had an infinite power supply I did say when they "die" didn't I? At the same time the nanites may work on thermal energy or may even steal carbs from our system and burn them. However, considering that that would require the nanites to be more taxing on resources, and require additional programming, I don't think they are. I think that it is highly likely that the human immune system would be 100% inneffective against an active nanite. I didn't say it was exactly like AIDS but if rather than full attack like the AIDS virus the nanites knew how to defend themselves it would be able to remain in the body until its power was exhausted. Only attacking the immune system defensively and only to the point needed to abate an attack it would not be apparent nor would our immune systems be destroyed.

I agree with the entropy. As their power died off they would be expelled, but the durration of their power has not been discussed, so it is up to the GMs... for now. As for the sensors, active expulsion from the body and

[Rallan]

Even easier bring thru a Splicers Great House. The nanoplague actually would not (IMO) continue to work in Rifts Earth as it's controlled by NEXUS. I'm currently playing a Pack Master who serves a House that was rifted to Chaos Earth, and we're doing OK so far made a few friends (US Army, NEMA) saved civilians from demons, etc. Check the Splicers board for this one (this is the Great House my chara. serves) [url][http://forums.palladium-megaverse.com/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=106778/url].

That all depends on whether the nanoplague needs real-time instructions to be transmitted to it, or if it's preprogrammed and will just keep blindly doing its thing until NEXUS releases a trigger telling it to stop. If it's the latter, a Splicers PC who gets to Rifts Earth could make things... interesting.

[Rallan]

While the folly of bringing a Rifts-type character into Splicers is made quite clear in the main book, I'm deeply intrigued by the idea of going the other way around. So here's the set-up: a moderatly experienced Dreadguard (level 5) is summarily dumped into Rifts Earth. How would he cope and how would the rules work out?

* His living weapons (the handheld kind) have no access to a nutrient pool and would soon die.
* His host armour is capable of feeding on its own and would survive.
* No Engineer to repair/upgrade the armour.
* Culture shock as he goes from being the apex of his society to a mere D-Bee and spat upon by most people he encounters.
* The nanoplague. What ways would it react to its new environment? How careful would the Dreadguard have to be to avoid metal in a world that revolves around guns, 'borgs, and 'bots?

I have my own idea about the lack of an Engineer: the host armour would be affected directly by magical energy pervading the planet. Every level-up, the player would have a chance to spend accumulated Bio-E points, but also runs the risk of the GM rolling a die and deciding that the host armour randomly mutates on its own and grows a new bio-tech system.

I'd really like to hear your thoughts on this idea.

The other fun thing would be the absolute lack of nation or research institute anywhere on Rifts Earth (with the exception of Genesplicer aliens who are explicitly written as a Deus Ex Machina source for any mad science abominations the GM feels like, and possibly the Splugorth and the Mechanoids) that would be able to help. And let's face it, Splicers are human beings so they're not likely to get a very good deal if the approach Genesplicers, Lord Splynncryth, or the Mechanoid invaders. The good folks at Lone Star might be able to work something out if they dedicate a few decades of research to the project, but since our hypothetical splicer is from another dimension and infested with some sort of alien symbiote, they're more likely to see him as a test subject to get the research started than a recipient of any care they can give.

Seriously, he'd almost be better off accidentally getting sucked to Systems Failure Earth than Rifts Earth. NORAD would be ecstatic to have him on board

[Shark_Force]

the books are quite clear that if ANY biological material (including blood) gets onto any non-precious metal other than that used directly in functioning NEXUS robots, the plague is triggered. we can therefore conclude that the nanobots are in fact spending plenty of time in the blood of the host.

NEXUS is constantly making nanobots and spreading them across the world. if the nanobots didn't need to be replenished, this wouldn't be necessary.

and the medical nanobots don't work by knowing where the wound is, they go to the wound with regular blood that is traveling there.

[Zer0 Kay]

the books are quite clear that if ANY biological material (including blood) gets onto any non-precious metal other than that used directly in functioning NEXUS robots, the plague is triggered. we can therefore conclude that the nanobots are in fact spending plenty of time in the blood of the host.

NEXUS is constantly making nanobots and spreading them across the world. if the nanobots didn't need to be replenished, this wouldn't be necessary.

and the medical nanobots don't work by knowing where the wound is, they go to the wound with regular blood that is traveling there.

Yeah... that is the only place. it also states that it lies dormant on metal so does that make metal blood? As I said before it could be using the blood and other fluid as a "highway". But that does give me another idea for getting rid of them. Leaches. Besides as you so kindly quoted ANY biological material (including blood) Any not JUST blood. Could be semen, lactation, feacle matter, urine, vomit, a snot rocket, tears, spit, dead skin cells, hair, a finger nail clipping, an arm, a leg, the sixth finger off one of your hands... hey wait, you killed my father prepair to die.

If the nanobots die off because their powersource was limited and if new life as in children, and bunnies and puppies and fish and rats and orangutan brains and cold cereal and... oh waith, that is for the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch, still enters the world then yes... they would still have to make nanobots. Remember every new hound, hawk or other manipulated creature, every new host armor, every new warmount has to be infected and then there is always those pesky Technojackers who use a bunch of them to do their little tricks. You know it never says that the factories spew forth nanobots in great clouds, I know that this would be rediculous but for the sake of argument, they could be manufacturing them in SMALL amounts.

Yeah but they'd still have to be able to tell the difference between a wound and not a wound or it could be ugly if they made a mistake. Their sensors are better than you make them out to be and that is just for the comparably stupid Rifts ones.

[Ziggurat the Eternal]

Where does it say they get passed? Unless your talking maybe onto another organic.

real life says they get passed. anything in your body's system will eventually get passed through, provided you live long enough. for example, if you drink a beer today, and then don't drink a beer (or other alcoholic drink) tomorrow, there will be more alcohol in your blood today than there is tomorrow. if you give it a few days, you will essentially have no alcohol in your blood (well, possibly your blood naturally has some low level of alcohol in it, i'm really not sure; but it won't have any of the alcohol from the beer, in any case). So who made you the expert on what kind of sensors can be put on a nanite? Especially from a super advance world that got nearly destroyed by a super advanced computer that can freaking rearrange the plates of the planet?

your body is specifically designed to expel foreign objects and substances that it doesn't specifically use for food. you have an entire immune system that does nothing but tell stuff that is foreign to the body to get out. therefore, if you don't constantly replenish the supply, eventually they will all be expelled. perhaps through blood loss, perhaps through your sweat, perhaps simply from exhaling, coughing, sneezing, vomiting, or whilst urinating or defecating, perhaps killed by white blood cells, but they are going to be gradually destroyed or expelled from your body one way or another, and unless you add new ones, you are eventually going to run out of nanites.

I should have said, no it doesn't. Real life says innert matter gets passed, all active "agents" must be faught and destroyed first. The only thin real life has to compare nanites to is viruses, and if AIDS wreaks havoc with the immune system a virus programmed to do specific things would be far more efficient at combatting our immune system, and more capable if it is physically designed to do so.

no, they're not magic, they should abide by real life laws. you can't just tell a nanobot to magically detect when it's being expelled from the system. you likewise can't just magically make it have an infinite power supply. the body will not be 100% unsuccessful at purging the nanites, and so gradually, the nanites WILL be purged. AIDS destroys the human immune system and has very obvious effects. if the nanites did that, we'd know, because humanity would be dead.

there is going to be some degree of lost nanites no matter what. it's a simple law. they are subject to entropy just like everything else. without something to replace them, they are going to gradually be destroyed, period. that's how things work in real life. they would have to have some means of sensing when they're removed from the body of their host, and then somehow get back to the host, and because they're such tiny robots they can't have that kind of sensory range or mobility.

Did I say they were magic? If a nanite can't tell the difference in organ walls and the various types of dermus then it isn't worth a crap. Yeah, so lets look at how the Rifts nanites work if they didn't know where they were then how would they find the wound and repair it? So that is Rifts nanites which would be inferior to that which could be produced by a machine that was created by a culture more advanced than Golden Age (Chaos Earth) Earth, and has far better knowledge of how to program a machine than any person or even ARCHIE III. It is likely that as an intelligent design most don't live in the fluids only using it for a transit system and they'd probably be massed mostly near the hands and feet. I never said they had an infinite power supply I did say when they "die" didn't I? At the same time the nanites may work on thermal energy or may even steal carbs from our system and burn them. However, considering that that would require the nanites to be more taxing on resources, and require additional programming, I don't think they are. I think that it is highly likely that the human immune system would be 100% inneffective against an active nanite. I didn't say it was exactly like AIDS but if rather than full attack like the AIDS virus the nanites knew how to defend themselves it would be able to remain in the body until its power was exhausted. Only attacking the immune system defensively and only to the point needed to abate an attack it would not be apparent nor would our immune systems be destroyed.

I agree with the entropy. As their power died off they would be expelled, but the durration of their power has not been discussed, so it is up to the GMs... for now. As for the sensors, active expulsion from the body and

Yeah, you're basing all this on false assumtions.

Rifts nanites are about 1,000 times larger than splicers ones. Thats 1,000 times the sensor capability, moblity, and programming.

Splicers nanites detect molecules of metal, and react. They don't really do anything else. They can't. There's just no room for anything other than the most basic coded instructions, and a really crappy scanner, that can only recognize man made metals and alloys. You could play hot potato all day with iron ore, or take a bath in gold pieces. It's explicitly stated what they do, and nothing you say is in the list.

Don't let your conceptions and ideas infect(pun intended) the written laws of the game, and common laws of reality. Don't get me wrong, what goes on in your game is your deal, but don't call it canon.

[Zer0 Kay]

Yeah, you're basing all this on false assumtions.

Rifts nanites are about 1,000 times larger than splicers ones. Thats 1,000 times the sensor capability, moblity, and programming.

Splicers nanites detect molecules of metal, and react. They don't really do anything else. They can't. There's just no room for anything other than the most basic coded instructions, and a really crappy scanner, that can only recognize man made metals and alloys. You could play hot potato all day with iron ore, or take a bath in gold pieces. It's explicitly stated what they do, and nothing you say is in the list.

Don't let your conceptions and ideas infect(pun intended) the written laws of the game, and common laws of reality. Don't get me wrong, what goes on in your game is your deal, but don't call it canon.

Where did you get that they were 1000 times larger? Still you can't say A tech nanites that is 1000 times larger has 1000 times the sensor capability as nanites made with Z tech. Where is it written that that is all they can detect? I know it is specifically written that they do, but you know what it detects more... it has to otherwise it would react the same when a robot touches a tree or if two pieces of metal touched and according to the fluff it is smart enough to tell the difference between Reptile and Mammal.

I didn't say my opinion was canon. However I'd argue yours isn't either. Show me the 1000x, show me where it says it has limited sensors, and show me where it says it reacts when anything (including other metal) touches metal. Oh and I recall something about the elements but can you get me a page for that too. My books are in storage.

Follow common laws of reality... yeah whatever it's palladium. Here's a couple common laws of reality that we should follow:
You can't make a full grown creature from a vat of organic material
You can't remove most of a rat and replace the vitals with only a bomb... the ticking no matter how loud doesn't count as a heart plus the metal would kill the rat... because of the nanites. If it doesn't then that lends further support for my theory that the nanites have greater capabilities than you lend them

[Zer0 Kay]

ok a few points

the nanite infection is not in the human, its the metals. (otherwise why not have the nanites just kill the human that they are infecting) also you have the people who ARE infected with the nanites but (somehow) controll them.

given the selective nature of the nanite infection (its perfectly safe to be human in the preserves for example, and the nanites dont bother non humans) I would think it more likely that the nanites are remote controled

so anyone who finds themselves on Rifts earth willl not have any probems from the nanites unless your one of the nanite users.(and even then there problem is that every high teck society that uses nanites will want to vivisect them)

Nope the people and all life are infected everything is coated with it and anything that breathes has it in them. It doesn't kill them because it was designed by Nexus to restrict humans from developing technology... oops can't do anything about genetic engineering.

Nanites in the preserves are also infected the book has conflicting views on how the nanites work because it there is:
How the nanites work by the rules
How the resistance think the nanites work
How Nexus intends for them to work

IIRC the book states that if any biological life form comes in contact with metal the nanites activate. The plague isn't supposed to activate around simple tools like shovels so that Gaia or whoever the heck has the human zoos can still allow her humans to work the land. It isn't selective about what it infects its selective on what activates it.

The humans that are infected are all humans, the ones that can control it are called technojackers.

So... yes they would have problems and according to popular opinion (not my own) it is so tech activated that it doesn't matter if it is metal, as most of the Rifts weapons and armor are ceramic (non-organic, non-metal, crystaline material), it still activates on high-tech items.

[Shark_Force]

no, it's very definitively metal. not high tech. just metal (with the exception of precious metals).

if you have a shovel, it'd better be a stone age shovel, because otherwise it will eventually get you.

the only metal it doesn't work on is active NEXUS robots (and presumably any handheld weapons they use). if the machine is then rendered inoperable, the nanoplague will take effect, if contact is maintained.

there are, in fact, examples of high-tech armor from before the plague right in the book, which don't use metal and are therefore perfectly safe to use.

[Zer0 Kay]

no, it's very definitively metal. not high tech. just metal (with the exception of precious metals).

if you have a shovel, it'd better be a stone age shovel, because otherwise it will eventually get you.

the only metal it doesn't work on is active NEXUS robots (and presumably any handheld weapons they use). if the machine is then rendered inoperable, the nanoplague will take effect, if contact is maintained.

there are, in fact, examples of high-tech armor from before the plague right in the book, which don't use metal and are therefore perfectly safe to use.

Yeah but as I said many for whatever reason liked doing it that way. I had mentioned that many Rifts characters would be fine because their equipment is made up of ceramics and cloth. Can you give me a page for the precious metals? Thanks.

That wasn't what I read when it was talking about the reserves.

Where does it say that about the robots and their weapons?

Yeah but I wasn't talking from Splicers I was talking to them about bringing a Rifts character over.

[Shark_Force]

page 9, second paragraph on the right side, a size is given for the nanites (about the size of bacteria, which is fairly non-specific, admittedly)

immediately afterwards, the person indicates that the nanobots can only hold a minimal amount of data.

3rd paragraph clearly states that it is contact with metal.

the top of the next page (ie before the first paragraph break) mentions precious metals as being the exception.

the next paragraph mentions that functioning robots do not trigger the nanoplague response, because it would damage the robots and is undesirable.

[Zer0 Kay]

page 9, second paragraph on the right side, a size is given for the nanites (about the size of bacteria, which is fairly non-specific, admittedly)

immediately afterwards, the person indicates that the nanobots can only hold a minimal amount of data.

3rd paragraph clearly states that it is contact with metal.

the top of the next page (ie before the first paragraph break) mentions precious metals as being the exception.

the next paragraph mentions that functioning robots do not trigger the nanoplague response, because it would damage the robots and is undesirable.

cool thanks.
But as I said before
there is the fluff given as hear say and the perceived that the human resistance has
there is the fluff given as what the robots built them to do
there is the game mechanics of how it works

So is page 9 Game System, Human Perception, or Machine Intention?

for example IIRC the game system says if a PC touches, the Human Perception says if any Animal and the Machine says Mammals. See what I mean... now I know, I just know I got some of those details mixed up but there is three different sources in a single book each saying a different thing and I think that is OK. GM's need to follow the mechanics and maybe read the machine side to understand the intent. PCs should only know the Human Perception fluff and maybe if they are some how able to hack the system learn about the intent.

[runebeo]

Use precious metals to build radios for Splicers to use in Rifts and other minor tech equipment the same way, pay a operator or even City Rat for a custom job.

[Zer0 Kay]

Use precious metals to build radios for Splicers to use in Rifts and other minor tech equipment the same way, pay a operator or even City Rat for a custom job.

Exactly how "precious" do the metals have to be? Why not just make the radios out of plastic, glass, silicon and carbon with traces of copper and gold like they are now. Most of the metal is chrome on the finish and completely cosmetic. Hmm... maybe any transformers and other coils would have large amounts of non-precious metals in it. Hey here is another possibility. Why would the machine waste precious resources to harden the electronics against EMPs? They've made it so the resistance couldn't produce the weapons required to make the pulse so if they were they've probably phased it out since then since the Nexus likes being efficient.

[Lt. Holmes]

Exactly how "precious" do the metals have to be? Why not just make the radios out of plastic, glass, silicon and carbon with traces of copper and gold like they are now. Most of the metal is chrome on the finish and completely cosmetic.

The problem with that is that the machines which make the plastic items are all steel. Trust me, I work in the plastics business. Most of the machines are straight out of the industrial revolution Okay, not that bad but you get the idea. Also, plastics, glass, silicon and carbon are all non-existant in any usable form until processed by a steel machine.

[Zer0 Kay]

Exactly how "precious" do the metals have to be? Why not just make the radios out of plastic, glass, silicon and carbon with traces of copper and gold like they are now. Most of the metal is chrome on the finish and completely cosmetic.

The problem with that is that the machines which make the plastic items are all steel. Trust me, I work in the plastics business. Most of the machines are straight out of the industrial revolution Okay, not that bad but you get the idea. Also, plastics, glass, silicon and carbon are all non-existant in any usable form until processed by a steel machine.

Aww how nice... The machines in Rifts would be these same machines you work on right? They'd likely be the machines that the Golden age used wich was probably nano lathes.

Anyway what is your point? It isn't the bio coming in contact with the nanites that causes a reaction it is the bio with the nanites on them coming into contact with metal objects that may or may not have the nanites on them.

[Lt. Holmes]

You're right in that Rifts Earth or Splicers technology could possibly have different ways of making those materials. But especially in the Splicers world, by the time they develop organic technology to make plastics and whatnot, their culture most likely wouldn't allow them to even consider using those materials. They'd be "of the Machine" and thus taboo. The Technojackers might, but they can use metal anyway, so...

Now, on a completely different topic, is it wrong that I have a mental image of a Behomoth on Rifts Earth trying to make nice-nice with a Monst-Rexs?

[Zer0 Kay]

You're right in that Rifts Earth or Splicers technology could possibly have different ways of making those materials. But especially in the Splicers world, by the time they develop organic technology to make plastics and whatnot, their culture most likely wouldn't allow them to even consider using those materials. They'd be "of the Machine" and thus taboo. The Technojackers might, but they can use metal anyway, so...

Now, on a completely different topic, is it wrong that I have a mental image of a Behomoth on Rifts Earth trying to make nice-nice with a Monst-Rexs?

I think that they did have plastics and ceramics but the machine probably destroied the tech after the rebellion. The items didn't become taboo until the machine started using the nanites and they wouldn't throw anything away that they could use or that was important otherwise all the disks that they use for money would have been cast out. Now the other funny thing is that all CDs have a little bit of metal to make it reflective. So how come the disks don't cause the reaction?

That reminds me there was this wildlife video where they were checking out the mating habits of a Cheetah so they made this dummy sprayed it with female Cheetah scent and played the sounds. It didn't take too long before a male Cheetah ran over jumped it and tried to make "nice-nice"... yeah well the dummy wasn't biologically accurate so the male Cheetah went thump and fell over.

[TechnoGothic]

Splicer biotech could produced oil, plastics, woods, bone, etc...no problem. Maybe even a type of ceramic produced by biotech methods as waste material.

The Nanoplague is a Non-issue in RIFTS. Without nexus creating more nanites to infect them, as the Splicers touch things they would shed nanites over time. I'd say between 3-6 months tops.

If a Splicer House was ported over to RIFTS, wow. I have introduced Splicer tech to my games. So I know the uses for Rifts Earth well. I have even had it start from a Single Seedling and how their are 4 in total. One Large House, and Three smaller houses. One of the smaller houses focuses on Biotics over Host Armors, and have created a Hyper-Biotic with BioE equal to a Dreadguard.

[Zer0 Kay]

Splicer biotech could produced oil, plastics, woods, bone, etc...no problem. Maybe even a type of ceramic produced by biotech methods as waste material.

The Nanoplague is a Non-issue in RIFTS. Without nexus creating more nanites to infect them, as the Splicers touch things they would shed nanites over time. I'd say between 3-6 months tops.

If a Splicer House was ported over to RIFTS, wow. I have introduced Splicer tech to my games. So I know the uses for Rifts Earth well. I have even had it start from a Single Seedling and how their are 4 in total. One Large House, and Three smaller houses. One of the smaller houses focuses on Biotics over Host Armors, and have created a Hyper-Biotic with BioE equal to a Dreadguard.

So because you play with them, in Rifts a world they shouldn't technically be able to be in because there shouldn't be a way for them to rift out of Splycers because it is a magic dead world, makes you makes you and SME? Where does it say that the nanites leave an organic host shedding onto everything they touch? Wouldn't you think they'd be programmed to remain on an animal host, unless the nanite signal was not detected in which case send an "colonization team over"? They have to be able to signal each other in close proximity otherwise you wouldn't be able to get some of the more spectacular effects and you'd have to roll for each nanite that detected the metal.

The plastics and ceramics... more like resins and ceramics couldn't be made into exacting shapes like that of a tech based laser rifle and all the internal components. It would be too much work even if it was so why not stick with the super light cells?

[Rallan]

Hey here is another possibility. Why would the machine waste precious resources to harden the electronics against EMPs? They've made it so the resistance couldn't produce the weapons required to make the pulse so if they were they've probably phased it out since then since the Nexus likes being efficient.

Because phasing out that sort of protection is just asking for it. Unless infestation is universal and instant, there's always the possibility that the resistance will be able to churn out EMP devices and deploy them in the field before nanites have enough time to disable them.

[The Galactus Kid]

Hey here is another possibility. Why would the machine waste precious resources to harden the electronics against EMPs? They've made it so the resistance couldn't produce the weapons required to make the pulse so if they were they've probably phased it out since then since the Nexus likes being efficient.

Because phasing out that sort of protection is just asking for it. Unless infestation is universal and instant, there's always the possibility that the resistance will be able to churn out EMP devices and deploy them in the field before nanites have enough time to disable them.

I agree with Rallan here. Something like this will be included in an upcoming Rifter article on new Warmounts that I'm working on.

[Zer0 Kay]

Hey here is another possibility. Why would the machine waste precious resources to harden the electronics against EMPs? They've made it so the resistance couldn't produce the weapons required to make the pulse so if they were they've probably phased it out since then since the Nexus likes being efficient.

Because phasing out that sort of protection is just asking for it. Unless infestation is universal and instant, there's always the possibility that the resistance will be able to churn out EMP devices and deploy them in the field before nanites have enough time to disable them.

I agree with Rallan here. Something like this will be included in an upcoming Rifter article on new Warmounts that I'm working on.

and how does it produce a EMP pulse? A nuclear detonation, an electromagnet compression detonated at its peak with shaped charges? Or are you going to apply the same Splycers magic as the Omega Blasters? Why would a logical machine calculate that bio can emulate an EMP pulse? Plus if your putting an EMP pulser in a new book and the machines systems are shielded then the machine doesn't have to worry. You do understand that if it is shielded it IS SHIELDED? You can't have different levels of pulse shielding. All the shielding does is redirect the magnetic pulse with electrical properties to ground or a bleed off capacitor, around all the sensitive components. An EMP also has detrimental effects on bios too they just aren't as spectacular as with electrical components. I'd think something like a taser as the EMP uses your nervous system as a way to ground.

[Zer0 Kay]

Hey here is another possibility. Why would the machine waste precious resources to harden the electronics against EMPs? They've made it so the resistance couldn't produce the weapons required to make the pulse so if they were they've probably phased it out since then since the Nexus likes being efficient.

Because phasing out that sort of protection is just asking for it. Unless infestation is universal and instant, there's always the possibility that the resistance will be able to churn out EMP devices and deploy them in the field before nanites have enough time to disable them.

I'd agree... at the beginning of the rebellion. But after they've churned out enough nanites... as they have and so long after technology has been abandoned and no one knows nuclear physics, electrical engineering, and weapons engineering. It would be illogical to continue waisting enough wiring on one robot that it could use to produce two robots on the off chance that one of the rarities that is able to handle the nanites has the combined skill sets to make an EMP device never mind a non-nuclear EMP device never mind being accepted by any non-technojackers that do have the needed skill sets. The probability and risk wouldn't make the continued EMP sheilding valuable.

[The Galactus Kid]

Hey here is another possibility. Why would the machine waste precious resources to harden the electronics against EMPs? They've made it so the resistance couldn't produce the weapons required to make the pulse so if they were they've probably phased it out since then since the Nexus likes being efficient.

Because phasing out that sort of protection is just asking for it. Unless infestation is universal and instant, there's always the possibility that the resistance will be able to churn out EMP devices and deploy them in the field before nanites have enough time to disable them.

I agree with Rallan here. Something like this will be included in an upcoming Rifter article on new Warmounts that I'm working on.

and how does it produce a EMP pulse? A nuclear detonation, an electromagnet compression detonated at its peak with shaped charges? Or are you going to apply the same Splycers magic as the Omega Blasters? Why would a logical machine calculate that bio can emulate an EMP pulse? Plus if your putting an EMP pulser in a new book and the machines systems are shielded then the machine doesn't have to worry. You do understand that if it is shielded it IS SHIELDED? You can't have different levels of pulse shielding. All the shielding does is redirect the magnetic pulse with electrical properties to ground or a bleed off capacitor, around all the sensitive components. An EMP also has detrimental effects on bios too they just aren't as spectacular as with electrical components. I'd think something like a taser as the EMP uses your nervous system as a way to ground.

Its not a full EMP pulse. The new Warmount will be pretty spectacular, nonetheless.

[Shark_Force]

the splicers have figured out how to make a thing that shoots lightning bolts, more or less. true, that isn't an EMP, but it can have some of the same kinds of effects.

[Zer0 Kay]

the splicers have figured out how to make a thing that shoots lightning bolts, more or less. true, that isn't an EMP, but it can have some of the same kinds of effects.

Not to mention that it can also be thwarted or at least dampened with the same tech. Hmm ok. You know I beleive that a ion weapon would also do something similar.

[Rallan]

Hey here is another possibility. Why would the machine waste precious resources to harden the electronics against EMPs? They've made it so the resistance couldn't produce the weapons required to make the pulse so if they were they've probably phased it out since then since the Nexus likes being efficient.

Because phasing out that sort of protection is just asking for it. Unless infestation is universal and instant, there's always the possibility that the resistance will be able to churn out EMP devices and deploy them in the field before nanites have enough time to disable them.

I agree with Rallan here. Something like this will be included in an upcoming Rifter article on new Warmounts that I'm working on.

and how does it produce a EMP pulse? A nuclear detonation, an electromagnet compression detonated at its peak with shaped charges? Or are you going to apply the same Splycers magic as the Omega Blasters? Why would a logical machine calculate that bio can emulate an EMP pulse?

Well you could build 'em the old fashioned way. If EMP is useful enough, there'll be an incentive for the humans to make EMP devices even though they know that any device which doesn't get deployed and discharged quick enough will be rendered useless by the nanites. It'd be one of the few kinds of technological weapons other than high explosives that would actually be worth making.

The only problem of course is that it doesn't work unless you assume the humans have managed to set up some sort of hidden manufacturing bases that are kept absolutely sterile and isolated to make sure the manufacturing equipment doesn't get taken out. Which I'll admit is where the idea kinda comes apart.

[Zer0 Kay]

Hey here is another possibility. Why would the machine waste precious resources to harden the electronics against EMPs? They've made it so the resistance couldn't produce the weapons required to make the pulse so if they were they've probably phased it out since then since the Nexus likes being efficient.

Because phasing out that sort of protection is just asking for it. Unless infestation is universal and instant, there's always the possibility that the resistance will be able to churn out EMP devices and deploy them in the field before nanites have enough time to disable them.

I agree with Rallan here. Something like this will be included in an upcoming Rifter article on new Warmounts that I'm working on.

and how does it produce a EMP pulse? A nuclear detonation, an electromagnet compression detonated at its peak with shaped charges? Or are you going to apply the same Splycers magic as the Omega Blasters? Why would a logical machine calculate that bio can emulate an EMP pulse?

Well you could build 'em the old fashioned way. If EMP is useful enough, there'll be an incentive for the humans to make EMP devices even though they know that any device which doesn't get deployed and discharged quick enough will be rendered useless by the nanites. It'd be one of the few kinds of technological weapons other than high explosives that would actually be worth making.

The only problem of course is that it doesn't work unless you assume the humans have managed to set up some sort of hidden manufacturing bases that are kept absolutely sterile and isolated to make sure the manufacturing equipment doesn't get taken out. Which I'll admit is where the idea kinda comes apart.

WTH and how are the humans going to touch the material? Never mind how the heck are the humans going to know what the heck an EMP is anyway? They are so far removed from their tech ancestors that they lost most of the science anyway. Why do they need to research HE they have bio-missiles that go boom? HE is a chemicle reaction not a mechanical one so they shouldn't have a problem doing that one. Sterile isolated plant... yeah ok so no host armor because those things are filthy and how are they going to sterilize the inside of people? And AGAIN the nanites don't disassemble tech. The nanites react to the touch of bio touching tech for extended periods of time. It doesn't just go out looking for tech to take apart.

[runebeo]

In our game our GM like to use the nano-plague as Out Rider main weakness for how powerful he is. Since he cannot come in contact with metal we tracked down a Living Chariot since its a supernatural shape-shifter it can become nearly and vehicle up to the size of a large van and as small as motorcycle. Rifts have flying wing-boards much like the Green Goblin's make it easy to take them inside building and still enjoy the chariot's power forcefield and protective bonuses.