Rifts Earth and the return of NATO (Triax 2 spoilers within)

[glitterboy2098]

once i get Triax2 i'll chime in with a more definite opinion, but it seems to me that the New Navy may not have officially revealed itself to the NGR at all, instead using it's subs to covertly supply support. at least, that was their plans as of WB7.
it's also possible the New Navy contacted the NGR prior to the operation, but required their assistance to be kept unknown. certainly if all they did was scout and provide escort to the NGR's ships their particiipation could have been kept hidden. it's unlikely the CS force sent was an amphibious unit, so it likely got assigned to the groundbased push from the NGR out to the beachhead, where it wouldn't know about NN participation.

i do wonder what the New Sovietski (which was located in sibera, last i checked..and seperated from the NGR by a dozen warlords) said to the NGR's offer, and if they participated in any way..

and the New Scandinavian Alliance (whoever they are),

Heh. Heh. Heh.

[Dustin Fireblade]

once i get Triax2 i'll chime in with a more definite opinion, but it seems to me that the New Navy may not have officially revealed itself to the NGR at all, instead using it's subs to covertly supply support. at least, that was their plans as of WB7.

Yeah somehow, it's morphed into this: the NGR president actually met Captain Nemo-2 on board the Ticonderoga itself. So apparently at some point, the has been some kind of formal introduction.

It seems the New Navy may have provided a token land-fighting force as well.



Onto the thread subject - how would the Republicans act?

[glitterboy2098]

still doesn't mean the CS is aware. look at ww1. secret alliances are easily possible here.

[Dustin Fireblade]

True, but they do know someone has helped out their navy, and if there's any kind of a exchange program you would think it should just be a matter of time.

[glitterboy2098]

actually, i bet the NGR could keep it hidden pretty easily. contact with the NN would be via specific contacts only, probably high up in the government. people who know better than to blab to anyone, much less around CS citizens.
the NN assistance would be kept to "that sub that accompanied us to the target, then left." just an unknown force that helped out. could even be a top secret NGR force, for all the troops know.

[Braden Campbell]

Don't forget that Triax has also made contact with Japan. The possibility of a "Human Axis" (Germany, Japan, and the CS) is very real.

[glitterboy2098]

i doubt Splynncryth would care over much at the moment. he might start getting concerned if the powers involved go beyond "we recognize you, trade with you, and send you a token armed force as a gesture of good will"

Don't forget that Triax has also made contact with Japan. The possibility of a "Human Axis" (Germany, Japan, and the CS) is very real.

last i'd checked, they hadn't. nor had the new navy. the NGR had sent a few expeditionary forces into the pacific, but none had made contact with anyone that i know of.

[glitterboy2098]

huh. another reason to buy the book then. what about the Austrialian tech-cities of perth and melborne?

so current list of nations in diplomatic contact: (edited to include missing entities from original post)

NGR
Coalition
Free Quebec (Via CS/Via NGR)
Columbia (Via the CS)
New Navy (Via NGR)
New Sovietskii (Via NGR)
Scandinavian Alliance (Via NGR)
Republic of japan (Via NGR)
Tritonia (Via New Navy)
Russian Warlords (Via NGR..sorta)
Poznan Colelctive (Via NGR)
Kingdom of Tarnow (Via NGR..sorta)

hmm...things look like they could get interesting..

(note: "sorta's" reflect diplomatic contact of a most basic nature.)

[jtjr26]

Like others after I get my copy of Triax II I will check it out for myself, but Chi-Town adopted the anti magic, and keeping the people illiterate policies more for propaganda and control than anything else. That being said almost everyone in the CS believes that same propaganda so it would be difficult to change. If faced with some kind of threat that was so big that alone they would be destroyed I am fairly sure that the political elites and the top military leadership would accept outside help. They may even lighten up on the education policies somewhat. The human supremacy/anti magic attitude would be much more difficult and would require a long term organized propaganda effort to begin to change opinions. Perhaps something for Emperor Joseph to do when he assumes the throne?

[glitterboy2098]

i figure that the dimetrically opposed social attitudes would make any alliance fall apart after a few years. the CS certainly hasn't been upfront with it's xenophobia when it comes to the NGR (look at Erin Tarn's story in WB5..the average NGR officer saw no problem with a CS officer going to give humanitarian aid to Dbee communities, and thought Erin Tarn was a "respected folk hero" in the CS), so once that little black spot becomes well known, relations will suffer. and the CS can't function as it does without the xenophobia and the promotion of ignorance. the NGR, New Navy, and Free Quebec are all much more amaible in that regard. to them, Dbees might not be considered citizens, but the policy is largely "out of sight, out of mind", nor racial cleansing. and all three recognize the importance of educating their people, although the exact level of education might differ.

any major alliance is going ot be led by the NGR and New Navy, as the two most adavanced and largest members. they're policies will set the policy of the entire alliance. and the CS's neo-nazi's just wouldn't last long under such pressures. they'd have to either cut ties, or reform.

FQ might have rocky relations, but depending on their leadership, they'd likely get by. Columbia would probably have similar trouble to the CS, especially if the CS is their main trading partner, and works to make them more CS-like.

[keir451]

There is also the fact that the New Navy command knows the CS would want them to hand over all their tech and the Ticonderoga, which they won't do. While Nemo (and the Navy high command) won't allow D-bees or non-Navy people into the cities, Nemo will use D-bees and random adventurers to do jobs for him, and eventually the New Navy will need to expand back onto the mainland which will put them in conflict with the CS for territory and resources. I think the Navy would work w/ the NGR, but not w/ the CS in the long run. It could boil down to a Navy, NGR, Japan alliance, w/the NGR keeping the CS on the sidelines for a while, don't forget that Nemo and the Sea Titans are effectively immortal so long after the current leasders of the CS and the NGR are dead they'll still be around and there'll be more of them by then too.

[Natasha]

Thus far it seems to be a completely unworkable alliance. Especially from a NATO point of view, which was an alliance of necessity more than one of choice--the Americans have bases all over Europe, is there a European military base in the US? With the end of the Cold War, the Europeans wanted to go their own way. I'm not really sure how deeply they actually want to get into bed with each other even in the world in which they live. Of course, it's been a while since I read the books, but I haven't seen anything that suggest it would be deep.

The social conflict wouldn't necessarily be a problem at the start especially if there are military successes, although it certainly would be in some time, enough that the alliance probably couldn't hold for very long.

Technology transfer is powerful stuff, the Germans wouldn't transfer latest generation tech to anybody that isn't a long standing and proven ally--even that might be questionable. It would instead transfer older tech to allies keeping the best toys for itself.

[glitterboy2098]

It was hard to find, but the New Navy does have an anti-D-Bee bias. Rifts Underseas page 110, last paragraph before the Captain Nemo-2 section. D-bees are regarded with suspicion and kept at an arms' distance, with ships run entirely by D-bees apparently considered to be hostile.

far cry from the CS's tendancy towards "shoot them all, let whatever deity they worship sort it out"
the new navy is not known to raze entire towns just because they were mostly Dbees. the new navy is not known to shoot people just because they were dbees.

the CS is so known.

the new navy as currently known is more like the NGR. "you don't bother me, i don't bother you."

[Lenwen]

How do you predict the next five years to progress for this tentative human-centric sphere of influence?

The way I see it, the Coalitions Xeno-phobia playing along the lines of attempting to overtake the New Navy threw means of subterfuge being backed by NGR's infatuation with always being the Top tech-dog in the world will eventually lead to a shattering of this alliance..

How will it play out?

Everything depends upon how the CS see's itself in this alliance an wether or not their satisfied with where they sit and if they are not in the drivers seat can they accept not being the top dog ?

Will we see war?

Yes. With out question there will be blood.

Softening of stances?

By everyone not named the Coalition yes. The CS is more apt to try to overtake the other nations/powerblock's in this alliance if they do not bend to the CS's will ..

Hardening of stances?

Yes, I can see the NGR attempting to hard line their stance twords DeBee's in an attempt at trying to bring the CS closer, much to the detriment of the NGR's relations with the New Navy.

Will the alliance fall apart?

Not totally, but I can clearly see the overall alliance being changed and reshaped due to the Coalitions stance on several issues, most importantly, their inability to allow D-Bee's into the mix, let alone being told what to do by one (Nemo an his Sea Titan's)

All in all I do not see the New Navy being in the Alliance.. or rather extremely heavily pushed to the back to such a point that it would make them rather keep to their own selves more an more.

Will smaller nations such as the Sovietski and Free Quebec be drawn into joint military actions?

They will be drawn into conflicts .. yes, but they will not be overall influenced into the super alliance .. I think they will be the ones this new super alliance will have to protect in the near future.

Will Tarnow ever figure out that its crown jewel is possessed by the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man?

I believe they already know, well more to the point a very small select few know this .. Already.

Will New Camelot try to send Lady Guinevere as an ambassador to Chi-Town only to have her secret identity revealed?

No. Lady "G" will never leave her sphere of Influence, more to the point Merlin very well might send out some of those who suspect that the "Kansas city Shuffle" is going on here .. to get rid of any an all "unwanted" interest or prying eyes as it were.

But outside of that, I do not see Merlin or Lady "G" leaving thier sphere of influence at all.

[Shark_Force]

The New Navy does attack Splugorth, Horune, and Naut'Yll vessels on sight, even going so far as to destroy scores of Naut'Yll colonies (page 109, Rifts Underseas) with the ultimate goal of driving the aliens off the planet entirely. Take that as you will.

[sarcasm] oh, well since as we all know the splugorth, horune, and naut'yll are such *friendly* civilisations, that is really a strong indication of how much like the coalition states the new navy are. [/sarcasm]

seriously... your argument is that the new navy must hate d-bees to the same extent as the CS because they attack races known for being militaristic and attacking others?

[Lenwen]

The New Navy can not hate D-Bee's due to their leadership actually being PART .. D-Bee ...

Anyone who says that the New Navy hates D-Bee's.. has not been paying attention ..

[TechnoGothic]

Don't forget that Triax has also made contact with Japan. The possibility of a "Human Axis" (Germany, Japan, and the CS) is very real.

Add in :

Australia
Columbia (South America 1)
Megaversal Legions (South America 2)
Geo-Front (China 2)

Looks like the World is Uniting at last.

[The Galactus Kid]

i do wonder what the New Sovietski (which was located in sibera, last i checked..and seperated from the NGR by a dozen warlords) said to the NGR's offer, and if they participated in any way..

The Sovietski is located in Wester Russia, not Siberia. Also, they are not really seperated by the warlords.

[Jockitch74]

huh. another reason to buy the book then. what about the Austrialian tech-cities of perth and melborne?

so current list of nations in diplomatic contact: (edited to include missing entities from original post)

NGR
Coalition
Free Quebec (Via CS/Via NGR)
Columbia (Via the CS)
New Navy (Via NGR)
New Sovietskii (Via NGR)
Scandinavian Alliance (Via NGR)
Republic of japan (Via NGR)
Tritonia (Via New Navy)
Russian Warlords (Via NGR..sorta)
Poznan Colelctive (Via NGR)
Kingdom of Tarnow (Via NGR..sorta)

hmm...things look like they could get interesting..

(note: "sorta's" reflect diplomatic contact of a most basic nature.)

Don't forget Cordoba in there (sa2). CS had extradition and support treaties with them as well.

[Jockitch74]

the NGR, New Navy, and Free Quebec are all much more amaible in that regard. to them, Dbees might not be considered citizens, but the policy is largely "out of sight, out of mind", nor racial cleansing. and all three recognize the importance of educating their people, although the exact level of education might differ.

Not completely true. Free Quebec is just as xenophobic and paranoid as the CS in regards to dbees and such wb 22, pg 33).

[Lenwen]

The New Navy can not hate D-Bee's due to their leadership actually being PART .. D-Bee ...

Anyone who says that the New Navy hates D-Bee's.. has not been paying attention ..

Sea Titans are human mutants, not D-Bees.

True as it is ..

Human mutants are looked down upon by the CS .. and are NEVER in a HIGH Leadership position on any real level of power ..

They are looked upon like 2nd class citizens ..

The CS will eventually demand they step down from their positions .. in the alliances.

[Dustin Fireblade]

I see the alliance being much stronger when Joseph takes over for the CS, not so much with Karl

[Lenwen]

The New Navy can not hate D-Bee's due to their leadership actually being PART .. D-Bee ...

Anyone who says that the New Navy hates D-Bee's.. has not been paying attention ..

Sea Titans are human mutants, not D-Bees.

True as it is ..

Human mutants are looked down upon by the CS .. and are NEVER in a HIGH Leadership position on any real level of power ..

They are looked upon like 2nd class citizens ..

The CS will eventually demand they step down from their positions .. in the alliances.

I disagree. To the point, the Coalition is increasingly relying upon Psi-Stalkers and psychics in its military (as does the NGR - human mutants with 'gifts', including the odd Mystic but mostly they refer to psychics, are encouraged to sign up with the military to use their gifts to help the rest of humanity). Since the New Navy basically is a military, having an outstanding human mutant in a position of command isn't necessarily beyond the pale.

Human mutants who can no longer pass as human are an entirely different story, of course, but Sea Titans they are not.

Yeah but the CS doesn't let the mutants abtain a high rank, unlike the Sea Titains which are the leaders of NN.

Exactly my point .. to which he never responded to .

[Dustin Fireblade]

If psychic powers are considered a mutation, then they already have a general in charge of Psi-Division (Psyscape pg 147)

Psi-Stalkers likewise can rise all the way up to a full bird colonel (CS rank chart on page 52 of CWC)

[NMI]

True as it is ..

Human mutants are looked down upon by the CS .. and are NEVER in a HIGH Leadership position on any real level of power ..

They are looked upon like 2nd class citizens ..

The CS will eventually demand they step down from their positions .. in the alliances.

[Proseck]: Captain Nemo; as part of this alliance of Humans, I demand that you step down from the position you have held for the past few generations immediately!
[Captain Nemo]: Uhm, how about no?


[Proseck]: General Rasheed, as part of this alliance of Humans, I demand that you step down from the position you have held for the past few generations immediately!
[General]: Sure! Of course, right away. In fact I will leave Germany right away.
[Proseck]: Really???
[General]: Yes. I will return to North America and reunite the Cyber Knights instead! I mean reunite with the them.
[Proseck]: Uhm, why don't you just stay here.

[keir451]

True as it is ..

Human mutants are looked down upon by the CS .. and are NEVER in a HIGH Leadership position on any real level of power ..

They are looked upon like 2nd class citizens ..

The CS will eventually demand they step down from their positions .. in the alliances.

[Proseck]: Captain Nemo; as part of this alliance of Humans, I demand that you step down from the position you have held for the past few generations immediately!
[Captain Nemo]: Uhm, how about no?


[Proseck]: General Rasheed, as part of this alliance of Humans, I demand that you step down from the position you have held for the past few generations immediately!
[General]: Sure! Of course, right away. In fact I will leave Germany right away.
[Proseck]: Really???
[General]: Yes. I will return to North America and reunite the Cyber Knights instead! I mean reunite with the them.
[Proseck]: Uhm, why don't you just stay here.

[Capt. Nemo to Prosek]: Master Cheif Daniels remove this scum bag from My Bridge.
[MC Daniels]; Is that an order Sir?
[Prosek]: Don't you dare!!
[Nemo]: That was an order sailor.
[MC Daniels, with an evil grin spreading across his face]: Yessir!! (sound of Prosek squealing in pain as his arms are wrenched from their sockets.)
Moments later; "Sir?"
[Nemo]: What is it Seaman?
[SN]: Aft torpedo tube just launched, Sir.
[Nemo}: Ah, that must have ben our guest.
[Sn]: "Gulp" Yessir!
[General]: I like that guys style.
[Nemo]: One of my best General, one of my best.

[AzathothXy]

Would the CS consider Demi-gods as human mutants? Cause that is precisely what the the Sea itans have become, more or less. They are not human mutants, they are now supernatural creatures empowered by magic from a rift. Atleast that is how I think the CS would view them.

[Seneca]

I fail to see what the average CS grunt's prejudice against D-bees and mutants has a bearing on an international diplomatic alliance. Nowhere is it written or implied that Karl and son are rabid human supremisists, or stupid, and the value of a North Atlantic alliance would not be thrown away because Nemo can breath under water and lives a long time. Even if they could deduce that just by looking at him.

After all scientists and teachers are criminals in the CS but valued members of society in the NGR.. All that has to be done is limit the amounnt of fraternization between crews and soldiers to keep such a group together. Just like the U.S. did with the Russians in WWII. Joint operations? Yes. Joint commands? No.

(edited to clarify)

[Natasha]

I fail to see how you can have joint operations without joint commands. If the relationship develops and the Germans decide to share tech and conduct more military operations together you can't avoid each side talking to each other.

I'm curious to know although it's off topic, who is "we" and where did you execution joint operations with the Soviet military?

[taalismn]

I fail to see how you can have joint operations without joint commands. If the relationship develops and the Germans decide to share tech and conduct more military operations together you can't avoid each side talking to each other.

I'm curious to know although it's off topic, who is "we" and where did you execution joint operations with the Soviet military?

Can't recall there WERE joint operations between the Allies and the Soviets...Even the Soviet basing of 'shuttle bombers' over German territory was frought with problems(it was even suggested that Stalin allowed the Germans to bomb American bombers that were sitting on a Soviet airfield awaiting turnaround just to discourage the Allies from getting used to flying warplanes in Soviet airspace).

[AzathothXy]

Would the CS consider Demi-gods as human mutants? Cause that is precisely what the the Sea itans have become, more or less. They are not human mutants, they are now supernatural creatures empowered by magic from a rift. Atleast that is how I think the CS would view them.

The Auto-G is also considered a human mutant, and we all know how the Coalition treats them.

In the case of the Sea Titans, though, whose basic abilities are fairly measurable and entirely out in the open, I do believe that the value of a North Atlantic alliance outweighs Coalition prejudices. In short, in this case human survival trumps regional ideology.

And when the CS learns that the Sea Titans are humanity's greatest threats? That they will eventually outbreed 'true' humans? None the other human mutants present that kind of threat.

Or do they herald this as humanity's ascension and a symbol of humankind's eventual victory over all things inhuman.

[keir451]

Would the CS consider Demi-gods as human mutants? Cause that is precisely what the the Sea itans have become, more or less. They are not human mutants, they are now supernatural creatures empowered by magic from a rift. Atleast that is how I think the CS would view them.

The Auto-G is also considered a human mutant, and we all know how the Coalition treats them.

In the case of the Sea Titans, though, whose basic abilities are fairly measurable and entirely out in the open, I do believe that the value of a North Atlantic alliance outweighs Coalition prejudices. In short, in this case human survival trumps regional ideology.

And when the CS learns that the Sea Titans are humanity's greatest threats? That they will eventually outbreed 'true' humans? None the other human mutants present that kind of threat.

Or do they herald this as humanity's ascension and a symbol of humankind's eventual victory over all things inhuman.

I can't see the CS accepting the Sea Titans into their midst and the CS's "Mad Scientist" in Lone Star would be rubbing his hands in glee. Righ now the New Navy has quite possibly the most advanced and experience naval force on the face of the planet and if they truly wanted to could destroy the remnants of the CS's navy and keep them land bound long enough for the New Navy to become a land force equal to or better than the CS.
The NGR on the other hand would welcome them, maybe not with wide open arms, but they'd see the value of having an alliance w/one of the most powerful Navies on the oceans.

[dark brandon]

CS themselves will not change any stances, but I don't see them forcing anyone to either. Triax/NGR are close partners with the NGR. The new NGR book states that one of the higher ups is a 12 ft. tall 4 armed supernatural dbee, and he's loved and trusted among the people. CS has not asked them to displace him. They are not happy, that much is true, but they are not going to force allies into doing what they want. Quebec was different in that it was an actual state, not another nation. I'm not sure if this analogy is a good one, but US hasn't suspended trade with china, Saudia or any other number of nations that don't fully conform to the US's ideals of "humanitarianism". CS will try to, influence the course but wether they do so or not is not important, as long as the "nation" is mostly human.

Also, depending on how much trade is done between the two nations, the more trade there is the less chance of their being a war between the nations, despite how bad the other gets.

CS will not force war on anyone who is a human nation. I don't think they can. CS is built upon the premise of human superiority and as shown with Quebec, moral drops hard and fast if they are forced to content with another human nation. I don't think there are any deal breakers outside of not being a human nation that would cause CS not to allie with a nation.

[Lenwen]

CS themselves will not change any stances, but I don't see them forcing anyone to either.

The CS has done that very thing in the past, when refused .. they invaded ..

CS will not force war on anyone who is a human nation. I don't think they can.

Quebec ring a bell ? Human nation, with whom the CS actually invaded ..

Not good enough for what ever reason ?

What about all the little towns/kingdoms from The Juicer Uprisings that the CS simply invaded ..

Still not good enough for what ever reason ?

What about the Port town in Texas that one day woke up .. and suddenly they were escorted outta town or destroyed ..

For you to sit there an try to say that the CS would never go to war with another "Human" nation, I do not think you have been paying attention to what the CS has been doing .. and to whom.. unless your just trying to ignore it .. or downplay it .. for what ever reasons ..

The CS will go to war with human nations as it has in the past ..

[NMI]

Play nice people

[Lord_Dalgard]

The CS will go to war with human nations as it has in the past ..

Now, were those human nations or were those traitor humans who had allied with D-Bees and magic-users? With the exception of Free Quebec, the answer is traitor human. And the differences with Quebec were...not resolved precisely, but they were seen as no longer important.

[Lenwen]

The CS will go to war with human nations as it has in the past ..

Now, were those human nations or were those traitor humans who had allied with D-Bees and magic-users? With the exception of Free Quebec, the answer is traitor human. And the differences with Quebec were...not resolved precisely, but they were seen as no longer important.

The reasons matter not .. why the CS went to war with other human nations/kingdoms ..

The fact is they will go to war with other human nations ... that is all ..

[dark brandon]

Quebec ring a bell ? Human nation, with whom the CS actually invaded ..

Quebec was a CS state. It was part of the CS nation. Quebec successfully seceded. As of after math, the are on ok terms.

How one reads this is going to be left to the individual and how they see the CS.

Those who are anti-cs will say they they stopped the war because they were fighting a

1) losing war and/or 2) cannot hold a war on two fronts, not after the sorcerers revenge.

Those who are pro-CS will say

1) Karl made a public speech about how wrong he was for fighting the war with Quebec, and after what quebec did (saving CS from having to fight demons by fighting it themselves) realized the war was wrong. 2) Fighting a human nation gave CS a huge morality drop, as they are not use to fighting other humans who really haven't done anything wrong. Quebec and CS have nearly the same attitude on many things it's kinda like fighting your brother, and that CS was sincere in their proclamations to notice Quebec as an independent state and truely sorry for starting a war against them.

I suspect the answer is somewhere between them both.

What about all the little towns/kingdoms from The Juicer Uprisings that the CS simply invaded ..

We're talking about human nations though. Not citys or city states, nor did

For you to sit there an try to say that the CS would never go to war with another "Human" nation, I do not think you have been paying attention to what the CS has been doing .. and to whom.. unless your just trying to ignore it .. or downplay it .. for what ever reasons ..

The CS will go to war with human nations as it has in the past ..

No, It hasn't. City states are not nations, and Quebec was a state in the CS state that seceded.

[Lord_Dalgard]

The fact is they will go to war with other human nations ... that is all ..

If they have d-bees or magic-users in them, they are not "human" kingdoms. They might have humans in them, but they gave up their rights to be treated as humans when they either collaborated with D-Bees or allowed them to live. Death to the traitors of the human motherland, the Earth.

[johnkretzer]

I see the alliance failing mainly because the NGR has not gone far down the path of darkness yet...but I see it failing for two reasons mainly..

1) The CS will be caught stealing tech from Triax. Which the CS troops left behind are looking to do...it even went into how lax Triax security has grown against this kind of stuff.

2) The CS has to present as a corrupt nation to it's people as soon as word spread that they suffer the D-Bees to live. They have to break off the alliance at this point because if the people stop fearing every little shadow and actualy you know start thinking for themselves. And lets be honest here that is all the CS leardership cares about is their own power...they would kill every human on the planet if it meant they would be in power happily.

It probably would not lead to a war though as well they both have enemies of their own to deal with and well they are not exactly close to each other as of yet. But maybe the NGR can actualy allied with the actual good forces of Rifts Earth like Lazlo...the Cyber-Knights...etc.

[dark brandon]

2) The CS has to present as a corrupt nation to it's people as soon as word spread that they suffer the D-Bees to live. They have to break off the alliance at this point because if the people stop fearing every little shadow and actualy you know start thinking for themselves. And lets be honest here that is all the CS leardership cares about is their own power...they would kill every human on the planet if it meant they would be in power happily.

While your opinion is your own, I will disagree with the assessment that any kind of interaction with a nation who holds different views will result in complete shift in mentality and all chaos will ensue. For example, just because America has huge interactions with China doesn't mean that we are going to cut off alliances with them if they don't adhere to a "humanitarian" policies. there are plenty of examples in todays world where 2 ideologies conflict yet people don't cut off trade with these nations.

Second, being exposed to NGR will not make someone miraculously "see the light" and change their views. The two have completely different up-bringing. CS citizens are taught the the government is god. They don't question, even those who are educated don't, generally. Heck, in today world shows because you have information doesn't mean you become a better person. You can bombard people with too much information or misconstrued it to make it say whatever you want and people will believe whatever they want.

CS leadership does care about it's power, but it also states that the Proseks also really do care about the citizens of their state (I believe Juicer uprisings in regards to juicer augmentation).

Lots of what I see saying the reason NGR and CS won't last boarders on 2 ideas

CS: Will kill anyone who doesn't think like them, allie or not. CS is run by brilliant strategists (well, it's suppose to be, but the writers of many books themselves aren't so it leaves something to be desired). CS has only attacked one human nation, that was quebec, and that was because it seceded from the States. Quebec was part of the CS.

NGR: they are good guys. If you read the books in regards to Dbees, they are only slightly above CS in regards to treatment of dbees. Dbees are given more options, but generally are beaten, treated worse than second class citizens, given no respect. Dbees are making some headway but face huge obstacles, and there is no guarantee it will ever change or that it won't get worse. They are getting even worse treatment now because human refugees are getting privlage treatment above them, which is not leaving much for them. They are becoming desperate. And, when the Brodkil decides to make itself known, NGR will be at a somewhat disadvantage (Their primary enemy has been gargs, and to a lesser degree brodkil). The resources are probably going to get pulled even more leaveing dbees in an even worse situation. The only reason they are given anything at the moment is because of Triax. It's a company and has a company mentality and as long as it can make money off of the dbees, they are good. If things get so bad that triax cannot get much of any profit, the dbees may end up being completely outcast. And with the events that happend to the president, it won't be hard to get the majority of the population (Which is stated they really don't even want them there in the first place) to ok another mass deporation.

Now, this is all ifs, and can work both ways, and brodkil could be a boon for dbees. It's a flip of the coin.

But I will say this, trade partners rarely see war with each other. Even in rifts earth, money still talks, and CS and NGR would not go to war unless the money were to stop changing hands.

[TechnoGothic]

The NGR and Coalition should try to find a way controlling the sattelites orbiting rifts earth eventualy with an help of PSI Telemechanic Powers (people who possessthem). Than send their own sattelites if the controled sattelites to unstable orhad to be destroyd first in order to find a way to control them) . After that the could at ease bombed the gargoyles from a safe location 10.000 mile+ distance back to Hell/Stone Age.

For that matter: Telemechanic powers are much unastimated forso long.
The possible controling whole computer networks with some thoughts in combination of other usefull sensetive/super Psi Powers should be watched with greater attanion

Sorry fo my poor english

Telemechanics would not help in controlling any of the Satillites in Orbit.
The Orbital Communities keep a close eye on their Sattilites. They are ones responible for the Derbis Field around Earth and Shot/Destroy anything that leaves the planet. See Mutants in Orbit for details.

[Capt. Nemo to Prosek]: Master Cheif Daniels remove this scum bag from My Bridge.
[MC Daniels]; Is that an order Sir?
[Prosek]: Don't you dare!!
[Nemo]: That was an order sailor.
[MC Daniels, with an evil grin spreading across his face]: Yessir!! (sound of Prosek squealing in pain as his arms are wrenched from their sockets.)
Moments later; "Sir?"
[Nemo]: What is it Seaman?
[SN]: Aft torpedo tube just launched, Sir.
[Nemo}: Ah, that must have ben our guest.
[Sn]: "Gulp" Yessir!
[General]: I like that guys style.
[Nemo]: One of my best General, one of my best.

Love it. So true.

The Legion is ran by D-Bees. Columbia views Elves and Dwarves the same as humans.

But the CS is Trading with Columbia right now for Coffee and Foods. See SA1.
The CS dislikes their opinion on Dwarfs and Elfs, but they have things they want or need. So its Tolerated for now.
CS even knows about...the ANTI-MONSTER TW Borgs. They dont trust them of course. But the CS agrees why the Columbian government uses them. Though the CS would not turn to that method themselves.

I fail to see what the average CS grunt's prejudice against D-bees and mutants has a bearing on an international diplomatic alliance. Nowhere is it written or implied that Karl and son are rabid human supremisists, or stupid, and the value of a North Atlantic alliance would not be thrown away because Nemo can breath under water and lives a long time. Even if they could deduce that just by looking at him.

After all scientists and teachers are criminals in the CS but valued members of society in the NGR.. All that has to be done is limit the amounnt of fraternization between crews and soldiers to keep such a group together. Just like the U.S. did with the Russians in WWII. Joint operations? Yes. Joint commands? No.

(edited to clarify)

Unless there's a Mega-Playboy gene amongst the Sea Titans, I'm betting that their breeding rates could be easily controlled. At any rate, they're seamen and women restricted to the New Navy with minimal shore-leave........... ok, I can't talk around the problem. The Sea Titans would probably have to have their reproductive activities closely monitored if the New Navy ever folded into the Coalition or NGR.

20 years after New navy Shore leave...
General : Chairman Prozek (the Son) We have a Problem with many of the new recruits, Sir.
Chairman : What is it now. If they dont wish to kill the Debee targets, just shoot them in the head. I'm tired of these cowards.
General : Err, Sir thats not the issue. Problem is much bigger than that.
Chairman : Then what is it General ?
General : Sir, Our newest Recruits have Supernatural Strength and are natural MDC beings and regenerate damage at an amazing rate. Seems their Fathers were from the New Navy. Sea-Titans, sir.
Chairman : Ohh Really. And we raised them correct ?
General : Yes sir!
Chairman : They agree with Ideaology correct ?
General : Yes Sir. But they are worried about their abilities and dont want to removed from our lands or their families.
General 2 : Sir. As the Leader of your Vanguard branch we could use men like these. My research into SeaTitans is vast. I even taught one Magic some years ago before you took your fathers seat on the throne.
Chairman : Yes, Yes, Yes. Wil they be a threat to us then ?
General 2 : No sir. However...They will outbreed us Normal Humans. Their children will be SeaTitans too most likely. I suggest we breed more of them. Their abilities would be a boon for the people and the human race itself. They are still human, just enhanced or more evolved than we are.
Chairman : Fine. General (1) let them know I'm not my father. They are Welcome as long as they Serve in our Military for Life. Wait. I wish to meet them bring them here the day after tomarrow. I will give them Medals and prounce them a new Branch of our Military.
General 1 : Sir, All of them. ??
Chairman : Yes all of them.
General : Sir their is over 2,000 of them.
Chairman : WHAT !!?!?!? Your kidding, No you not are you. Alright we have a whole new branch. 2,000 of them ? What were those Seatitans doing durning that Weekend leave ?
General 2 : Sir, appears they hit Every Whorehouse in the City, the Burbs and outside that. They knocked up alot of women that weekend sir by these reports.
Chairman : OMG...They come into our territory every Year for a Weeks leave for the last 15 years !
General 2 : Yes sir. We are looking at a much greater number of SeaTitans gaining their powers over the upcoming years.
Chairman : I WANT A SEA TITAN WIFE !!! My Children Will be Immortal. We will not have to worry about a chaning of Guard between Chairmen anymore unless they step down.
General 1 & 2 : Brillient Sir !!

[TechnoGothic]

Mostly I just want to roll up a Sea Titan Mega-Playboy now...

You Killed another One !!
Zerebus this has to stop. Your going through too many Sea Titan Playboys.
You have not even bought a new carpet to roll him up in. Geeze Zerebus.
You need a new Hobby.

[Lenwen]

What about all the little towns/kingdoms from The Juicer Uprisings that the CS simply invaded ..

We're talking about human nations though. Not citys or city states, nor did

Now your argueing symantics ?

For you to sit there an try to say that the CS would never go to war with another "Human" nation, I do not think you have been paying attention to what the CS has been doing .. and to whom.. unless your just trying to ignore it .. or downplay it .. for what ever reasons ..

The CS will go to war with human nations as it has in the past ..

No, It hasn't. City states are not nations, and Quebec was a state in the CS state that seceded.

Fact is the CS crushed MANY .. human based sociaties (that had no D-Bee's mind you) for not joining thier little empire ..

The fact that you want to sit here an debat .. names, Empire's, Kingdoms, City States .. only serves to further my point . The CS WILL in fact go to war with another human based sociaty .. if they feel they have the ability and power to win .. if not they will leave sleeping dogs lie ..

[johnkretzer]

@Dark Brandon: I am not talking about knowledge...and people will start questioning things. Not everyone....but some will. The CS goverment controls the people though fear. The NGR has not. When people see that not all d-bees are monsters they will start to questions things. I am not saying that all will...or even most. But enough will that will cause the goverment concern. They will be force to react because of the whole power thing which is more important to them then money. Money is not everything not even in our world. Look at the extreme terroist. I think in the end the CS will cut off relations with the NGR because along with trade ideas will spread and the CS power structure can't exist with that happening.

As to your claim that the NGR only treat D-Bees slightly better...are you joking? I mean given a choice have a chance to try to integrate into a society though military service or though working...or get shot...or at best get kicked off my land that I do have? I would say the NGR policy is leaps and bounds beeter than the CS...and while you are right that the NGR has come to a cross road I think they will head in the right and intelligent direction. I mean they now have new land to control and eventualy seattle so they are going to need more man power then before. They just need time to organize it.

I really believe in the end though that it will be the NGR that breaks of relations with the CS( sure they might still be trade...countries trade with their enemies all the time as you have pointed out), but I think the CS is going to do three things that will make the NGR reject them out of hand.

1) Try to steal technology
2) Give support to the NGR human supremist terroist activities.
3) The CS will probably end up doing something stupid like attacking a NGR d-bee ally..

The CS is evil...they are not the best last hope for humanity...the leadership does only care about power( sure they 'care' about their people because without the people power is meaningless). I just find it funny when people seem to buy into the CS proganda when their true aims is very clear.

[glitterboy2098]

the NGR, New Navy, and Free Quebec are all much more amaible in that regard. to them, Dbees might not be considered citizens, but the policy is largely "out of sight, out of mind", not racial cleansing. and all three recognize the importance of educating their people, although the exact level of education might differ.

Not completely true. Free Quebec is just as xenophobic and paranoid as the CS in regards to dbees and such wb 22, pg 33).

read it, and it's my basis for my statement.
the FQ response to finding Dbees living in their lands? "you have X days to leave our territory. we will escort you to the border. please follow our orders and do not return, or we will be forced to employ permanent measures against you."
the CS version begins more "after the bombing runs are completed" , and just gets worse from there.
while FQ is more hardline than the NGR, their policy is still very liberal compared to the CS.

I fail to see what the average CS grunt's prejudice against D-bees and mutants has a bearing on an international diplomatic alliance. Nowhere is it written or implied that Karl and son are rabid human supremisists, or stupid, and the value of a North Atlantic alliance would not be thrown away because Nemo can breath under water and lives a long time. Even if they could deduce that just by looking at him.

the common popular attitude cannot exist without at least some support from the government as a whole. governments have a vested interest in controlling popular attitudes, and if the average CS grunt thinks "dbees shouls all be exterminated", thats mainly because their government beleives something similar. is it going ot be the exact same? maybe not. but the attitudes are going ot be the result of the government efforts at control.

After all scientists and teachers are criminals in the CS but valued members of society in the NGR.. All that has to be done is limit the amounnt of fraternization between crews and soldiers to keep such a group together. Just like the U.S. did with the Russians in WWII. Joint operations? Yes. Joint commands? No.

(edited to clarify)

during WW2 we worked with the russians, despiute our people disliking them, and our governemnt really disliking them. and this was before we learned about Stalin's purges. and we only worked together because we had a common, greater enemy in the Nazi's. and what happened after that enemy was gone? we stopped working together, and wound up at each others throats pretty much right away.
it's the same story with many of the places we teamed up with during the cold ar. once the cold war ended, our support of most of those distasteful unhumanitarian dictatorships was dropped like a hot potato.
history is fairly clear. nations ally with governments that violate their own moral and ethical codes only in times of crisis or because there is a resource avaialbel fro mthem not available from others. once that crisis or valuable reesource is no longer present, the alliance falls apart.

so it would be with the NGR and the CS. once the gargoyles are no longer a threat, the CS will be tossed away like a live grenade. doesn't matter that the CS will want to stay allied, the differences will be too great.

[dark brandon]

Fact is the CS crushed MANY .. human based sociaties (that had no D-Bee's mind you) for not joining thier little empire.

I don't have my books readily at hand, can you name some?

[dark brandon]

@Dark Brandon: I am not talking about knowledge...and people will start questioning things. Not everyone....but some will. The CS goverment controls the people though fear. The NGR has not. When people see that not all d-bees are monsters they will start to questions things. I am not saying that all will...or even most. But enough will that will cause the goverment concern. They will be force to react because of the whole power thing which is more important to them then money. Money is not everything not even in our world. Look at the extreme terroist. I think in the end the CS will cut off relations with the NGR because along with trade ideas will spread and the CS power structure can't exist with that happening.

Well, we disagree fundamentally then. In this world, I see money as the most important thing, and so do many nations. Its why america has so many trade agreements with nations that need to work on their "humanitarianism". We turn a blind eye to it because we get things cheap.

As to your claim that the NGR only treat D-Bees slightly better...are you joking? I mean given a choice have a chance to try to integrate into a society though military service or though working...or get shot...or at best get kicked off my land that I do have? I would say the NGR policy is leaps and bounds beeter than the CS...and while you are right that the NGR has come to a cross road I think they will head in the right and intelligent direction. I mean they now have new land to control and eventualy seattle so they are going to need more man power then before. They just need time to organize it.

Maybe. Like I said, it can really go either way.

I really believe in the end though that it will be the NGR that breaks of relations with the CS( sure they might still be trade...countries trade with their enemies all the time as you have pointed out), but I think the CS is going to do three things that will make the NGR reject them out of hand.

1) Try to steal technology
2) Give support to the NGR human supremist terroist activities.
3) The CS will probably end up doing something stupid like attacking a NGR d-bee ally..

1) Maybe. But that is almost expected. I'm sure they have spies on each side trying to steal each others info. The alliance is too important for both sides and I think both sides are expecting some sort of spy network in each group
2) That would be really stupid of CS. I see them supporting human supremacists, but not supporting something that would harm the citizens and that could be linked to the CS.
3) Like who?

The CS is evil...they are not the best last hope for humanity...the leadership does only care about power( sure they 'care' about their people because without the people power is meaningless). I just find it funny when people seem to buy into the CS proganda when their true aims is very clear.

Why funny? Have you actually sat down and talked with someone who thinks CS is the greatest hope for humanity?

[dark brandon]

so it would be with the NGR and the CS. once the gargoyles are no longer a threat, the CS will be tossed away like a live grenade. doesn't matter that the CS will want to stay allied, the differences will be too great.

I disagree. Many nations still trade and work with a number of countries that have unscrupulous reputations in humanitarianism. Most immediate is china. We did not have a strong trade with Russia.

Any time money becomes involve, morality becomes a non-issue.

[Lenwen]

Fact is the CS crushed MANY .. human based sociaties (that had no D-Bee's mind you) for not joining thier little empire.

I don't have my books readily at hand, can you name some?

I already have ..

Most of them are nameless towns ..

For example the towns taken over threw out the Juicer Uprisings ..