Center: Saved or Conquered?

[keir451]

I have yet to run anyhting revolving around Center yet, but the balance of power in my 3G is waaaaay different than in the books. I have another group that is more high tech than the Naruni hiding out in an obscure quadrant of the prime galaxy and we trashed the Kreeghor Empire. So it might be that Center falls to the Demons initially, then the PC's help this new group rout the Demons but this new group ends up claiming Center for themselves. This might cause different reactions in the PCs. Esp. when an entirely new Galaxy "drops" in on the opposite side of the 3G's and another force appears.

[Jorel]

Center would fall, just not permanently.

[taalismn]

The Liberation of Center would be one of the pivotal moments of history, an Cosmic Epic event that would in the minds of the bards herald in a new age(or at least be used as dating point; 'Pre-Center Conquest', and 'Post-Center Liberation'.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I'd personally not use the Minion War Saga at all. it has some interesting stats for Demons, but really, I treat it like the Seige on Tolkeen: Got some good ideas, NPC's, and flavor material, but I will never ever use it in a meaningful fashion. I LIKE having Center inviolate, myself.

[Jorel]

I'd like to think the Holocaust could never have happened, but it did. It wasn't the first time either. Columbus wouldn't have come to America if he hadn't been persecuted in Spain. It also helped shape the politics in modern Europe and our awareness that the potential exists for it to happen again somewhere else. So in my Megaverse, both those events will be a crappy part of Rifts history.

[taalismn]

I'd like to think the Holocaust could never have happened, but it did. It wasn't the first time either. Columbus wouldn't have come to America if he hadn't been persecuted in Spain. It also helped shape the politics in modern Europe and our awareness that the potential exists for it to happen again somewhere else. So in my Megaverse, both those events will be a crappy part of Rifts history.

"You play with the cards dealt you, not the ones you wish for, and you go to war with the weapons you got, not the ones you wish for', eh?

[Nekira Sudacne]

I've not run this adventure yet, but (and I'm glad my players don't get on the forums to see this) when they do Center will survive. If the second stagers were severely weakened it would then weaken their assistance in keeping the Old Ones trapped. With their prison weakened, then what? You can see the domino effect that I don't know if my campaign would be ready for.

Some of my favorite old comics used to be the "What If..." series. I have played some sessions around a What If scenario before and yours seems appealing for such a night.

Well, the "good" thing about the Old Ones prison is that you may be dealing with eons of time. They may have in fact weakened the dimensional prison (again) by displacing the second stagers....OR...they could go in and find that they can't even affect the second stagers who are helping to maintain it. The demons could try doing all sorts of stuff to them, even their own phase beamers, and have no effect for some reason. Alternately, the second stagers could have been shuffled off planet during the pandemonium (which could be an adventure by itself with player characters trying to help protect them as they are evacuated.

Man, I just thought about something. Imagine Center, at the moment when the Promethians realize they can't save it, and send out the mass evacuation signal. All those millions of people trying to evacuate in the middle of a battle. Every cosmoknight in range would be there trying to get people out....especially since I think the Promethians would shut down Gateland to keep the demons from taking over half the multiverse. You'd have this huge defensive action, people who refuse to leave ("I've lived here durn near 200 years, I won't let no rotten demon kick me outta my grandpappy's home! Gimme dat plasma rifle, ya cowerd!"), people trying to buy their way onto transports. People stealing and fighting over ships in the docking bay, overloaded ships crashing to the surface because their too heavy to take off....people drawing straws to see who stays behind. Those final people who see the last ships take off, and then just decide all that is left to do is kill demons until they are overrun.....

It'd be like the sinking of the Titanic, 9/11, the sacking of Rome by the Visigoths, and the Battle of Helm's Deep, times about 10,000, all at the same time.

I guess my real problem with that is say you do that. You destroy Phase World...and...now what? The game is called Phase World, the entire setting revolves around the place. You nuke it and your left with Generic Space Opera setting #820 billion.

For an individual game/campaign, sure, phase world getting destroyed or saved is a great campaign.

From a Metaplot standpoint, it's a bad, bad idea. GM's who want to focus a game around Saving Center (or breaking it), don't need a source book to do so.

[Jorel]

3 Galaxies. Doesn't have to be Phase World.

[Nekira Sudacne]

3 Galaxies. Doesn't have to be Phase World.

Sure, but that's my point: You don't need a sourcebook for this.

[jtjr26]

I am sure that some games will have Center fall but In any case I don't think it should be permanent or even for very long. Though its only hinted at the Promethan's have hidden resources, rumored phase cruisers. Well what if they have battleships or dreadnoughts as well. Let alone what the collective abilities of the Second Stage Promethan's added to the mix, if they decide to openly take action.

Also lets not forget everyone favorite trillionaire, Thraxus. I suspect he will be very pissed that his personal playground is being defiled in such a way and will take some kind of action both during and after the 'outbreak' is finished. Most likely some of the people who survives these events won't live to enjoy their lives.

[keir451]

I've not run this adventure yet, but (and I'm glad my players don't get on the forums to see this) when they do Center will survive. If the second stagers were severely weakened it would then weaken their assistance in keeping the Old Ones trapped. With their prison weakened, then what? You can see the domino effect that I don't know if my campaign would be ready for.

Some of my favorite old comics used to be the "What If..." series. I have played some sessions around a What If scenario before and yours seems appealing for such a night.

Well, the "good" thing about the Old Ones prison is that you may be dealing with eons of time. They may have in fact weakened the dimensional prison (again) by displacing the second stagers....OR...they could go in and find that they can't even affect the second stagers who are helping to maintain it. The demons could try doing all sorts of stuff to them, even their own phase beamers, and have no effect for some reason. Alternately, the second stagers could have been shuffled off planet during the pandemonium (which could be an adventure by itself with player characters trying to help protect them as they are evacuated.

Man, I just thought about something. Imagine Center, at the moment when the Promethians realize they can't save it, and send out the mass evacuation signal. All those millions of people trying to evacuate in the middle of a battle. Every cosmoknight in range would be there trying to get people out....especially since I think the Promethians would shut down Gateland to keep the demons from taking over half the multiverse. You'd have this huge defensive action, people who refuse to leave ("I've lived here durn near 200 years, I won't let no rotten demon kick me outta my grandpappy's home! Gimme dat plasma rifle, ya cowerd!"), people trying to buy their way onto transports. People stealing and fighting over ships in the docking bay, overloaded ships crashing to the surface because their too heavy to take off....people drawing straws to see who stays behind. Those final people who see the last ships take off, and then just decide all that is left to do is kill demons until they are overrun.....

It'd be like the sinking of the Titanic, 9/11, the sacking of Rome by the Visigoths, and the Battle of Helm's Deep, times about 10,000, all at the same time.

I think it sounds like a lot of fun and can't wait until I can run it!

[DhAkael]

In answer to the original post question: yes.

[Misfit KotLD]

I've not run this adventure yet, but (and I'm glad my players don't get on the forums to see this) when they do Center will survive. If the second stagers were severely weakened it would then weaken their assistance in keeping the Old Ones trapped. With their prison weakened, then what? You can see the domino effect that I don't know if my campaign would be ready for.

Some of my favorite old comics used to be the "What If..." series. I have played some sessions around a What If scenario before and yours seems appealing for such a night.

Well, the "good" thing about the Old Ones prison is that you may be dealing with eons of time. They may have in fact weakened the dimensional prison (again) by displacing the second stagers....OR...they could go in and find that they can't even affect the second stagers who are helping to maintain it. The demons could try doing all sorts of stuff to them, even their own phase beamers, and have no effect for some reason. Alternately, the second stagers could have been shuffled off planet during the pandemonium (which could be an adventure by itself with player characters trying to help protect them as they are evacuated.

Man, I just thought about something. Imagine Center, at the moment when the Promethians realize they can't save it, and send out the mass evacuation signal. All those millions of people trying to evacuate in the middle of a battle. Every cosmoknight in range would be there trying to get people out....especially since I think the Promethians would shut down Gateland to keep the demons from taking over half the multiverse. You'd have this huge defensive action, people who refuse to leave ("I've lived here durn near 200 years, I won't let no rotten demon kick me outta my grandpappy's home! Gimme dat plasma rifle, ya cowerd!"), people trying to buy their way onto transports. People stealing and fighting over ships in the docking bay, overloaded ships crashing to the surface because their too heavy to take off....people drawing straws to see who stays behind. Those final people who see the last ships take off, and then just decide all that is left to do is kill demons until they are overrun.....

It'd be like the sinking of the Titanic, 9/11, the sacking of Rome by the Visigoths, and the Battle of Helm's Deep, times about 10,000, all at the same time.

I guess my real problem with that is say you do that. You destroy Phase World...and...now what?

And then the campaign to liberate it begins in earnest. All of a sudden, there's actually MORE of a reason to call the campaign Phase World. It's still the center of the galaxy...a galaxy under siege by demonic invaders. All the "stuff" left behind that people could sneak into to steal, etc.
No, not the best direction for the company to take the game, but a great direction for GMs to take it.
Hell, even if the city goes down completely into ruins, it's not going to disappear off the map. It's too big, even if you nuked it.
You "wreck" Center, and with all the amazing treasures and tech left behind, you just invented the largest "dungeon crawl" location in gaming history!
As a GM, I'd need a drool bib thinking of all the gaming opportunities the "Demon-infested Ruins of Center" present.
Phase tech run wild...dimensionally unstable...all the Splugorth beasties running loose, entire "Indiana Jones" warehouses of lost treasure, and all in a structure miles around with all the lights turned out....located on a supernexus.....*GMgasm*!

So, when are we playing it? Juli is looking forward to your sound effects for a space campaign anyway.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I've not run this adventure yet, but (and I'm glad my players don't get on the forums to see this) when they do Center will survive. If the second stagers were severely weakened it would then weaken their assistance in keeping the Old Ones trapped. With their prison weakened, then what? You can see the domino effect that I don't know if my campaign would be ready for.

Some of my favorite old comics used to be the "What If..." series. I have played some sessions around a What If scenario before and yours seems appealing for such a night.

Well, the "good" thing about the Old Ones prison is that you may be dealing with eons of time. They may have in fact weakened the dimensional prison (again) by displacing the second stagers....OR...they could go in and find that they can't even affect the second stagers who are helping to maintain it. The demons could try doing all sorts of stuff to them, even their own phase beamers, and have no effect for some reason. Alternately, the second stagers could have been shuffled off planet during the pandemonium (which could be an adventure by itself with player characters trying to help protect them as they are evacuated.

Man, I just thought about something. Imagine Center, at the moment when the Promethians realize they can't save it, and send out the mass evacuation signal. All those millions of people trying to evacuate in the middle of a battle. Every cosmoknight in range would be there trying to get people out....especially since I think the Promethians would shut down Gateland to keep the demons from taking over half the multiverse. You'd have this huge defensive action, people who refuse to leave ("I've lived here durn near 200 years, I won't let no rotten demon kick me outta my grandpappy's home! Gimme dat plasma rifle, ya cowerd!"), people trying to buy their way onto transports. People stealing and fighting over ships in the docking bay, overloaded ships crashing to the surface because their too heavy to take off....people drawing straws to see who stays behind. Those final people who see the last ships take off, and then just decide all that is left to do is kill demons until they are overrun.....

It'd be like the sinking of the Titanic, 9/11, the sacking of Rome by the Visigoths, and the Battle of Helm's Deep, times about 10,000, all at the same time.

I guess my real problem with that is say you do that. You destroy Phase World...and...now what?

And then the campaign to liberate it begins in earnest. All of a sudden, there's actually MORE of a reason to call the campaign Phase World. It's still the center of the galaxy...a galaxy under siege by demonic invaders. All the "stuff" left behind that people could sneak into to steal, etc.
No, not the best direction for the company to take the game, but a great direction for GMs to take it.

I guess this right here is my problem--it should have been left entirely to the GM's if they ever wanted Center to fall. We didn't need a Book for it, and to be honest we didn't need the entire Minion War saga in the first place.

All the books have decent material, but really, it all boils down to an over-hyped Adventure book. But instead of "center falls" being one in a large list of possible adventures in an adventure book, it's turned into this overblown thing that to be honest underwhelms me quite a bit.

All in all, I think it's a net downer for the Phase World setting that this book exsists, because its going to make it much harder for me to find the kind of phase world games that I would actually want to play.

Hell, even if the city goes down completely into ruins, it's not going to disappear off the map. It's too big, even if you nuked it.
You "wreck" Center, and with all the amazing treasures and tech left behind, you just invented the largest "dungeon crawl" location in gaming history!
As a GM, I'd need a drool bib thinking of all the gaming opportunities the "Demon-infested Ruins of Center" present.
Phase tech run wild...dimensionally unstable...all the Splugorth beasties running loose, entire "Indiana Jones" warehouses of lost treasure, and all in a structure miles around with all the lights turned out....located on a supernexus.....*GMgasm*!

Sure, I mean, there's tons of gaming adventure to be had there. My problem is: there already was. Now your replacing all those pre-exsisting adventure ideas with these. It dosn't add to the game at all, it fundamentally changes it. What's more it's enshrined in the biggest Meta-plot series palladium's done, meaning it's going to be nearly impossible to find games where it hadn't happened.

I'm not saying that the idea of Center Falls shouldn't exsist, i'm saying the company had no business making an entire book about it--it's just a bad idea and a bad move.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Actually, I think it's the best Palladium book in quite some time. It blew me away like I haven't been in quite some time, and I rank it with Wormwood, Manhunter and Vampire Kingdoms, and myself and a couple other freelancers have told Carmen that he pretty much raised the bar for the rest of us.

Oh i'm not saying it's a poorly written book. I'm just saying the basic premise is flawed. I don't think it's something we can agree on. But the simple point is, it's a metaplot that I simply don't think should happen in the first place, from the perspective of the line, although individual GM's will, of course.

Basically, it simply shouldn't have been a published product and left entirely to individual GM's rather or not Center is even attacked.

[Carl Gleba]

Actually, I think it's the best Palladium book in quite some time. It blew me away like I haven't been in quite some time, and I rank it with Wormwood, Manhunter and Vampire Kingdoms, and myself and a couple other freelancers have told Carmen that he pretty much raised the bar for the rest of us.

Man I just can't compete with Carmen. He gets his name on T-shirts, has his own book series, runs games at the POH that will be remembered for years and steals credit for my book!

Sorry el magico, I couldn't resist

[Carl Gleba]

Oh i'm not saying it's a poorly written book. I'm just saying the basic premise is flawed. I don't think it's something we can agree on. But the simple point is, it's a metaplot that I simply don't think should happen in the first place, from the perspective of the line, although individual GM's will, of course.

Basically, it simply shouldn't have been a published product and left entirely to individual GM's rather or not Center is even attacked.

Sorry you don't like the premise of the Minion War Nekira. The thing is a static world without change is boring to me.

Well even if you don't like the plot there is still a lot of info on Center itself. That might be worth something to you unless it doesn't fit your vision of Center.

Carl

[Nekira Sudacne]

Oh i'm not saying it's a poorly written book. I'm just saying the basic premise is flawed. I don't think it's something we can agree on. But the simple point is, it's a metaplot that I simply don't think should happen in the first place, from the perspective of the line, although individual GM's will, of course.

Basically, it simply shouldn't have been a published product and left entirely to individual GM's rather or not Center is even attacked.

Sorry you don't like the premise of the Minion War Nekira. The thing is a static world without change is boring to me.

Well even if you don't like the plot there is still a lot of info on Center itself. That might be worth something to you unless it doesn't fit your vision of Center.

Carl

No game /world/ should be static, that is, the actual games that individual GM's run. the game /line/ should absolutely be static and metaplot free. It's a template for GM's to build their own stories upon, it shouldn't be used for individual authors to change the scenario just because, because then it invalidates everyone who liked the OLD setting better.

In short, the minion war should have been an optional adventure sourcebook that in no way affected the ongoing cannon of Phase World, or other lines, does that make sense?

And that's my problem. Why was this a Metaplot instead of an adventure book? that's the thing I can't understand. you could have had all your adventure ideas published without screwing with everyone who wants to run a game without center being attacked.

[Carl Gleba]

No game /world/ should be static, that is, the actual games that individual GM's run. the game /line/ should absolutely be static and metaplot free. It's a template for GM's to build their own stories upon, it shouldn't be used for individual authors to change the scenario just because, because then it invalidates everyone who liked the OLD setting better.

Yeah disagree with this one big time. Rifts has been an evolving (and dynamic) plot ever since World Book one when Erin Tarn went to the Vampire kingdom. Every world book to follow has furthered the time line. To a lesser extent the same thing has happened in PW. Avil Galaxy brought you the forge war. So now Center has been attacked and the details are in writing. big deal, no one is forcing you to use it, nor does it invalidate the setting because the setting has not changed, just the circumstances.

In short, the minion war should have been an optional adventure sourcebook that in no way affected the ongoing cannon of Phase World, or other lines, does that make sense?

No.

And that's my problem. Why was this a Metaplot instead of an adventure book? that's the thing I can't understand. you could have had all your adventure ideas published without screwing with everyone who wants to run a game without center being attacked.

See first reply.

Carl

[Nekira Sudacne]

No game /world/ should be static, that is, the actual games that individual GM's run. the game /line/ should absolutely be static and metaplot free. It's a template for GM's to build their own stories upon, it shouldn't be used for individual authors to change the scenario just because, because then it invalidates everyone who liked the OLD setting better.

Yeah disagree with this one big time. Rifts has been an evolving (and dynamic) plot ever since World Book one when Erin Tarn went to the Vampire kingdom. Every world book to follow has furthered the time line. To a lesser extent the same thing has happened in PW. Avil Galaxy brought you the forge war. So now Center has been attacked and the details are in writing. big deal, no one is forcing you to use it, nor does it invalidate the setting because the setting has not changed, just the circumstances.

In short, the minion war should have been an optional adventure sourcebook that in no way affected the ongoing cannon of Phase World, or other lines, does that make sense?

No.

And that's my problem. Why was this a Metaplot instead of an adventure book? that's the thing I can't understand. you could have had all your adventure ideas published without screwing with everyone who wants to run a game without center being attacked.

See first reply.

Carl

I don't think i've quite articulated myself properly. I don't understand why any game line should have any metaplots in the first place. It seems we're talking apples and oranges. advancing the timeline dosn't inherently advance a metaplot. What was told in new west, or vampire kingdom, didn't actually change what had already exsisted. it added new things to the mix. This does change things, but it dosnt' invalidate what was already written.

Things like Seige on Tolkeen, and Minion wars, are metaplots, as they completey change what was written before them.

However, I don't think it should do that. I think things like that should be optional adventure books. New material should never invalidate old material. The minion war does invalidate what was already written about center, how can you say it dosn't?

[Carl Gleba]

doh! Sorry, was looking at one of his books when I typed that...lol

It's all good

[V-Origin]

I know according to the books it is saved, but what about in people's personal games?

I have to say, in my universe, I think Center will have fallen if a gaming group goes to Three Galaxies. I can think of so many great stories emanating from that, where the Three Galaxies is just under assault from relentless demon armies, planet after planet falling, and the heroes pushed into being insurgents trying to free the galaxies from the grip of evil. The major powerblocks would still be holding, like the CCW, UWW, TGE and FWC, but everyone else is in deep trouble: The Altess, the Golgans, etc.
The only saving grace would be that the Prometheans locked down gateland before they basically had to abandon ship, and the demons are trying to hunt down the last few Second Stagers, who they see as the biggest threat. Thraxus and others would be hiring adventurers and funding the rebellion, and basically, there'd be a cadre of the biggest badarses in the Three Galaxies who have banded together to strike at the Demonic centers of power. Cosmo-knights, Invincible Guardsmen, Phase Adepts, Quatoria, Gunbrothers, etc. trying to work together despite their differences to stop the tides of darkness.
It would be like Star Wars meets Wormwood meets Doom Trooper/Mutant Chronicles. At least that's how I'd play it. What about everyone else?

Saved AND Conquered

[V-Origin]

I am sure that some games will have Center fall but In any case I don't think it should be permanent or even for very long. Though its only hinted at the Promethan's have hidden resources, rumored phase cruisers. Well what if they have battleships or dreadnoughts as well. Let alone what the collective abilities of the Second Stage Promethan's added to the mix, if they decide to openly take action.

Also lets not forget everyone favorite trillionaire, Thraxus. I suspect he will be very pissed that his personal playground is being defiled in such a way and will take some kind of action both during and after the 'outbreak' is finished. Most likely some of the people who survives these events won't live to enjoy their lives.

Thraxus is a wimp. He depends on his money and soldiers far too much.

[V-Origin]

I am sure that some games will have Center fall but In any case I don't think it should be permanent or even for very long. Though its only hinted at the Promethan's have hidden resources, rumored phase cruisers. Well what if they have battleships or dreadnoughts as well. Let alone what the collective abilities of the Second Stage Promethan's added to the mix, if they decide to openly take action.

Also lets not forget everyone favorite trillionaire, Thraxus. I suspect he will be very pissed that his personal playground is being defiled in such a way and will take some kind of action both during and after the 'outbreak' is finished. Most likely some of the people who survives these events won't live to enjoy their lives.

Thraxus is a wimp. He depends on his money and soldiers far too much.

Ahhh, and that is the source of the power. If you believe that power is only defined by how much MDC he has or how high his supernatural STR is, you've missed using half of the villians properly. The biggest movers and shakers of the world were not the best warriors. I bet even I could have beat up Napoleon or Hitler, but they knew how to command or inspire large groups of people (soldiers) and commanded resources of entire countries (money) to forward their agendas and incite wars that killed more people than any single "tough" guy.

Someone with an army would easily take him down, especially in the chaos of war. 10 adult dragons would take him down easily. But that would be too easy so you have to trash his property first. Watch the count of monte crisco.

Hey, even D.O. implies that Centre might fall, even though that is not advisable from a gameplay balance pov. So thrashing Thraxus' property is not improbable.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I am sure that some games will have Center fall but In any case I don't think it should be permanent or even for very long. Though its only hinted at the Promethan's have hidden resources, rumored phase cruisers. Well what if they have battleships or dreadnoughts as well. Let alone what the collective abilities of the Second Stage Promethan's added to the mix, if they decide to openly take action.

Also lets not forget everyone favorite trillionaire, Thraxus. I suspect he will be very pissed that his personal playground is being defiled in such a way and will take some kind of action both during and after the 'outbreak' is finished. Most likely some of the people who survives these events won't live to enjoy their lives.

Thraxus is a wimp. He depends on his money and soldiers far too much.

Ahhh, and that is the source of the power. If you believe that power is only defined by how much MDC he has or how high his supernatural STR is, you've missed using half of the villians properly. The biggest movers and shakers of the world were not the best warriors. I bet even I could have beat up Napoleon or Hitler, but they knew how to command or inspire large groups of people (soldiers) and commanded resources of entire countries (money) to forward their agendas and incite wars that killed more people than any single "tough" guy.

Someone with an army would easily take him down, especially in the chaos of war.

Except, of course, Thraxus has a much larger army than you do...

[V-Origin]

I am sure that some games will have Center fall but In any case I don't think it should be permanent or even for very long. Though its only hinted at the Promethan's have hidden resources, rumored phase cruisers. Well what if they have battleships or dreadnoughts as well. Let alone what the collective abilities of the Second Stage Promethan's added to the mix, if they decide to openly take action.

Also lets not forget everyone favorite trillionaire, Thraxus. I suspect he will be very pissed that his personal playground is being defiled in such a way and will take some kind of action both during and after the 'outbreak' is finished. Most likely some of the people who survives these events won't live to enjoy their lives.

Thraxus is a wimp. He depends on his money and soldiers far too much.

Ahhh, and that is the source of the power. If you believe that power is only defined by how much MDC he has or how high his supernatural STR is, you've missed using half of the villians properly. The biggest movers and shakers of the world were not the best warriors. I bet even I could have beat up Napoleon or Hitler, but they knew how to command or inspire large groups of people (soldiers) and commanded resources of entire countries (money) to forward their agendas and incite wars that killed more people than any single "tough" guy.

Someone with an army would easily take him down, especially in the chaos of war.

Except, of course, Thraxus has a much larger army than you do...

And how would you know that?

[V-Origin]

Or would hire said dragons or army out from under you. He's quite connected would would likely be well aware of any large move against him before you got very close.

His attention would be on the more immediate threat. aka the demons.

I would use my army as a check against the Deevils. Place my troops on lvl 5 and prevent the Deevils from coming up. Let the demons flood lvl 2 and correspondingly lvl 1,3 and 4.

Then when the time is right, some of my superhuman troops and dragons metamorphosed as demons will take him down. Easy.

If i want to take him down of course.. Such a weakling would be better off being kept alive.. Better the devil you know than the one you don't know.. Nah I would just thrash his property and leave him bruised, humilated and .. alive..

hire my troops? i think i have much more money than him, matey..

hehhehee

[Nekira Sudacne]

Thraxus is a wimp. He depends on his money and soldiers far too much.

Ahhh, and that is the source of the power. If you believe that power is only defined by how much MDC he has or how high his supernatural STR is, you've missed using half of the villians properly. The biggest movers and shakers of the world were not the best warriors. I bet even I could have beat up Napoleon or Hitler, but they knew how to command or inspire large groups of people (soldiers) and commanded resources of entire countries (money) to forward their agendas and incite wars that killed more people than any single "tough" guy.

Someone with an army would easily take him down, especially in the chaos of war.

Except, of course, Thraxus has a much larger army than you do...

And how would you know that?

Back Atchya. How do you know he don't?

[V-Origin]

Back Atchya. How do you know he don't?

Cos I can't see ancient dragons following such a weakling. Nor does he have the ability to give out major pacts to his army of billions.

Put it simply. Someone with only trillions of credits just doesn't have the ability to enforce the requisite loyalty in high-level supernatural minions. Especially when these high-level supernatural minions i.e dragons possess billions of credits themselves.

Unless you are able to sorta upgrade these high-level supernatural minions with lotsa power. Lotsa magical power and knowledge which will become unavailable if these high-level supernatural minions ie.e dragons dare to betray you.

And it is only when you have millions of LOYAL high-level supernatural minions as lieutenants then can one control billions of soldiers.

Money is never enough to control a mercenary's loyalty.

hehehe

[Misfit KotLD]

And what's going to hold together an army of high level superntural critters such as dragons?

[V-Origin]

And what's going to hold together an army of high level superntural critters such as dragons?

Major pacts for one.. and if you are a god, you can create your own dragons which are extremely loyal to you.

This is assuming you managed to become a god in the first place.

[Misfit KotLD]

And what's going to hold together an army of high level superntural critters such as dragons?

Realistically? Overarching common need. You basically have to convince them that not only is sticking together the only way they'll survive and that their ability to dimensionally teleport won't save them, but you also have to convince them that you're the "man with the plan" that they need to follow. Otherwise you end up with every high-powered being thinking that they should be the boss and questioning your every decision. Even if you do all that, that still leaves you on some extremely shakey ground.

In other words, Thraxus' army is bigger.

[V-Origin]

And what's going to hold together an army of high level superntural critters such as dragons?

Realistically? Overarching common need. You basically have to convince them that not only is sticking together the only way they'll survive and that their ability to dimensionally teleport won't save them, but you also have to convince them that you're the "man with the plan" that they need to follow. Otherwise you end up with every high-powered being thinking that they should be the boss and questioning your every decision. Even if you do all that, that still leaves you on some extremely shakey ground.

WHich is why only gods and supernatural intelligences have the required power to command their loyalty.

Mere godlings can never command a fully grown dragon, much less millions of them.

[Nekira Sudacne]

And what's going to hold together an army of high level superntural critters such as dragons?

Realistically? Overarching common need. You basically have to convince them that not only is sticking together the only way they'll survive and that their ability to dimensionally teleport won't save them, but you also have to convince them that you're the "man with the plan" that they need to follow. Otherwise you end up with every high-powered being thinking that they should be the boss and questioning your every decision. Even if you do all that, that still leaves you on some extremely shakey ground.

WHich is why only gods and supernatural intelligences have the required power to command their loyalty.

Mere godlings can never command a fully grown dragon, much less millions of them.

His point is that no level of power can command their loyalty. They'll just leave. at best you'd get a few out of friendship. Even if you offered them witches pacts they have no reason to accept no matter how much power you offer.

[V-Origin]

And what's going to hold together an army of high level superntural critters such as dragons?

Realistically? Overarching common need. You basically have to convince them that not only is sticking together the only way they'll survive and that their ability to dimensionally teleport won't save them, but you also have to convince them that you're the "man with the plan" that they need to follow. Otherwise you end up with every high-powered being thinking that they should be the boss and questioning your every decision. Even if you do all that, that still leaves you on some extremely shakey ground.

WHich is why only gods and supernatural intelligences have the required power to command their loyalty.

Mere godlings can never command a fully grown dragon, much less millions of them.

His point is that no level of power can command their loyalty. They'll just leave. at best you'd get a few out of friendship. Even if you offered them witches pacts they have no reason to accept no matter how much power you offer.

I believe any of the major gods in the Egyptian pantheon can easily command an army of dragons if they want to.

[Nekira Sudacne]

And what's going to hold together an army of high level superntural critters such as dragons?

Realistically? Overarching common need. You basically have to convince them that not only is sticking together the only way they'll survive and that their ability to dimensionally teleport won't save them, but you also have to convince them that you're the "man with the plan" that they need to follow. Otherwise you end up with every high-powered being thinking that they should be the boss and questioning your every decision. Even if you do all that, that still leaves you on some extremely shakey ground.

WHich is why only gods and supernatural intelligences have the required power to command their loyalty.

Mere godlings can never command a fully grown dragon, much less millions of them.

His point is that no level of power can command their loyalty. They'll just leave. at best you'd get a few out of friendship. Even if you offered them witches pacts they have no reason to accept no matter how much power you offer.

I believe any of the major gods in the Egyptian pantheon can easily command an army of dragons if they want to.

It's the dragons that's the problem. Why should they listen to you instead of just T-teleporting to a dimension you've never heard of?

[V-Origin]

It's the dragons that's the problem. Why should they listen to you instead of just T-teleporting to a dimension you've never heard of?

Create Minion

[Nekira Sudacne]

It's the dragons that's the problem. Why should they listen to you instead of just T-teleporting to a dimension you've never heard of?

Create Minion

Unfortunatly, Create Minion cannot create dragons. look closely at the specifics of the power. There are limits to what can be bestowed.

[V-Origin]

It's the dragons that's the problem. Why should they listen to you instead of just T-teleporting to a dimension you've never heard of?

Create Minion

Unfortunatly, Create Minion cannot create dragons. look closely at the specifics of the power. There are limits to what can be bestowed.

that depends on how you define "Player Races"

[anarchclown]

Deeeeeeeee (this continues for some time) eeeeerailed!!!

[Nekira Sudacne]

It's the dragons that's the problem. Why should they listen to you instead of just T-teleporting to a dimension you've never heard of?

Create Minion

Unfortunatly, Create Minion cannot create dragons. look closely at the specifics of the power. There are limits to what can be bestowed.

that depends on how you define "Player Races"

Well, just define Alien Intelligences as a player race and create minions of that.

You could argue that you can make hatchling dragons as a minion, but if so, they wouldn't "Transform" into adults as that would make them not a player race.

Or you could let them do so, but once they do, they would no longer be loyal to you. And probablly mad about being enslaved.

And even so, your minions might be loyal, but being loyal and doing what you want arn't always the same thing. Especially when it's essentially forced religious fanatasiem. They'll do what they THINK you want, which is rarely going to be what you actually want no matter how clear you think you are.

So no matter how you define this...it's gonna turn out ugly.

[Vrykolas2k]

I thought about having Center fall.
Then I looked again at how powerful the Prometheans are, then looked at the Second Stagers... and the fact that no-one has any idea of how many of those there are.
They're about as powerful as gods.
Trying to invade Center, in my game, is the pivotal moment in ending the war between both Dyval and Hades, as they have to deal with a few dozen Second Stagers who are ticked off at the temerity of attacking Center.

[9voltkilowatt]

And lets not forget about any of the built-in security features that the original builders may have put in place. I mean come on, the Prometheans smacked down a splugorth invasion force and then charged them rent for the effort!

[cornholioprime]

doh! Sorry, was looking at one of his books when I typed that...lol

It's all good

Now if we could only get Desmond Bradford and the Gene-Splicers to give us....

.......


CARMEN GLEBA!!!

(dun dun.........dunnnnnnnn!)


Ooohh........"The Demonic Dyvalian Splicers of Hades!!" I can't wait!!

[cchopps]

I thought about having Center fall.
Then I looked again at how powerful the Prometheans are, then looked at the Second Stagers... and the fact that no-one has any idea of how many of those there are.
They're about as powerful as gods.
Trying to invade Center, in my game, is the pivotal moment in ending the war between both Dyval and Hades, as they have to deal with a few dozen Second Stagers who are ticked off at the temerity of attacking Center.

That is my issue with Center falling.. but nothing a good story couldn't fix. Basically, something would have to happen that would get the Second Stagers attention and draw it away from Center prior to the attack. Or something that they and maybe tons of First Stagers have to *deal with* instead of defending Center. I'm not exactly sure what that would be, but without that there is absolutely no way Center could fall.... well, unless they forget to defend their Northern Border.

C. Chopps

[Johnathan]

Actually... the prospects behind defending Center from massive amounts of demonic and supernatural invasions is... Tempting and tasty! It's AWFULLY tempting actually considering how it would play out. Everyone would be pulling their resources to stem the tides of monsters.

Would. Be. AWESOME!!

Out of all of my characters... I would want my cyber-knight there... He would consider it a challenge worthy of his skills. :3

[DhAkael]

Haven't gotten there yet.
still at least another half-year game-time, until i'm even close to using 'Outbreak'.
All depends on how the players and their characters comport themselves prior to the invasion

[V-Origin]

It's the dragons that's the problem. Why should they listen to you instead of just T-teleporting to a dimension you've never heard of?

Create Minion

Unfortunatly, Create Minion cannot create dragons. look closely at the specifics of the power. There are limits to what can be bestowed.

that depends on how you define "Player Races"

Well, just define Alien Intelligences as a player race and create minions of that.

You could argue that you can make hatchling dragons as a minion, but if so, they wouldn't "Transform" into adults as that would make them not a player race.

Or you could let them do so, but once they do, they would no longer be loyal to you. And probablly mad about being enslaved.

And even so, your minions might be loyal, but being loyal and doing what you want arn't always the same thing. Especially when it's essentially forced religious fanatasiem. They'll do what they THINK you want, which is rarely going to be what you actually want no matter how clear you think you are.

So no matter how you define this...it's gonna turn out ugly.

I do not know of any Canon that quote Alien Intelligences as player races.

Nor do I know of any Canon that states that hatchling dragons can't grow up to become adult dragons.

However, Rifts Main Book Revised explicitly quote that Hatchling Dragons are player races.

Thus a God can use Create Minions to create his own Minion Dragons with the loyalty trait imbued in them.

You can say the same thing of any hired army when it comes to executing orders. However, I would say that if mere humans in the CS army can follow orders to the point that the Tolkeen War is won, then dragons won't have too much trouble doing the same or even exceeding humans in this aspect.

[V-Origin]

Actually... the prospects behind defending Center from massive amounts of demonic and supernatural invasions is... Tempting and tasty! It's AWFULLY tempting actually considering how it would play out. Everyone would be pulling their resources to stem the tides of monsters.

Would. Be. AWESOME!!

Out of all of my characters... I would want my cyber-knight there... He would consider it a challenge worthy of his skills. :3

It is even more tempting when you imagine how you can use the chaos or even ADD to the chaos to carve out your own power base on Center. Use your own imagination.

Hehehehehhe..