Hades and Hades

[Jorel]

How is the book mentioned here coming along? Is the idea scrapped since a long while back or is it part of some sort of possible future plot?

Hades - Pits of Hell is the first book in the Minion War Series and Dimension Book 10. It's been out for awhile. Check the online store.

[anarchclown]

The booklet mentioned in this topic is something Mr Gleba talked about doing as an additional adventure book for the minion war. Not Hades. Check the topic

[Carl Gleba]

How is the book mentioned here coming along? Is the idea scrapped since a long while back or is it part of some sort of possible future plot?

It's not. While it is an interesting idea I have other commitments and other subjects I want to write about.

Carl

[Armorlord]

I'm quite certain it said that Hades, where the Greek God Hades rules, is different from the Hades where demons rule.

You know, kind of like how the Three Galaxies has 17 different "earths"

Actually.....it never said that. Not in Pantheons of the Megaverse, anyway.
It said that Hades' personal kingdom is named Hades. It said that Hades has the Interdimensional Prison of Tartarus in his realm. It says he has borders with Demon Lords, and he has to guard against raids, but that he's so singularly powerful in his own realm that none dare challenge his power. It says he has treaties with some of his Demon Lord neighbors to stop raids being launched from their realms into his. It says Succor-Bemoth once came into his realm and was punished severely, and Succor-Bemoth holds a grudge to this day. And it says that Hades commands the demons known in Palladium as the Hordes of Hades, which live in the Palladium dimension known as Hades.
Seems like, if not the same place, then its one intimately tied to it.

I am given to understand that Hades (the dimension) is modeled almost exactly on the Palladium World. Given that there is a section of the Palladium World of unknown size behind some kind of "wall", perhaps the area of Hades (the dimension) corresponding to that hidden area is ruled by Hades (the god), and the Lords of Hades (the dimension) refuse to attack that area, or the massive numbers of Demons that live there under the command of Hades (the god). Just a possibility.

Basically the Realm of Hades, ruled by Hades the Greek Deity, which also contains the Inter-dimensional Prison of Tartarus, is a separate place from the Dimension of Hades, ruled by the Demon Lords, which contains an area also called Tartarus, though the Realm of Hades borders many demonic kingdoms that must be kept back...
...Huh.
At least that was what I thought until I sat down rereading things to answer.
What I'm now pondering is pure brick **** material.
It mentions Hades, the god, as so powerful few would dare challenge him, though he still had to be on guard for demonic attack and raids constantly, and in command of many things, including, and I quote, 'all the Hordes of Hades'. So I wonder what all that is and flip over to the referenced CB1 page, and find the underworld being named for its lord: Hades. So while I'm mulling that over I flip through the Hoards of Hades section and see many familiar Hades Demons.. including the Demon Lords and Modeus.
Then I flip back to Modeus in Hades and it all makes terrifying sense. Modeus is now so powerful in Hades that few would dare challenge him, and he commands all the Hordes of Hades.. all thanks to a little Book he wrested away from the previous Lord of Hades.
At this point I realized that a whole lot had been going on in the rest of the Megaverse during the passage of time from when CB1-2 came out until now, the last 7-8 years by the PA calendar alone has been pretty eventful. No reason the rest of the plots in the Megaverse wouldn't keep trucking along. No matter where Hade's Realm was located in Hades, he certainly cared more for his duties than about trying to be a ruler of demons, which the Omega Book made easy enough to keep them roughly in line while he went about his business, other than concerns about raids and attacks attempting to claim it for their own per the curse. Seems it was finally stolen away by Modeus to firmly cement himself as Lord even over other Demon Lords.
That leaves GMs to ponder the final fate of Hades and his personal Realm.. and his prisoners. Off hand, I would probably say that once the Book was acquired, there is a strong possibility of Demons vs the garrison of Hundred Handed and a fair amount of looting of treasures and magical items (which would go toward Minion War preparations), before a pull back and offer to allow Hades, the god, the opportunity to continue to watch his prison is relative peace if he does not meddle in their affairs. All and all, a good deal for Modeus not having to worry about those the gods of various pantheons would want sealed away, too much potential for rival powers being released and angry gods, and appeals to Hades' sense of duty. As for how Hades was able to lose the Book in the first place, there was that small matter of Freya, leaving the possibility for all kinds open of intra-pantheon conflict between Zeus and Hera, and conflict between the Olympians and the Norse.

Edit: As an aside, I must say this is some Spell of Legend level Thread Necromancy here. Also, in case I haven't mentioned it before- Great work with Hades, Carl!

[anarchclown]

Ok thank you for answering Carl. What is it that you are working on now then if I may ask?

[Carl Gleba]

Ok thank you for answering Carl. What is it that you are working on now then if I may ask?

I can't say anything officially until its in a press release or Kevin talks about it in a murmur or pod cast. What I can is that I've been doing a lot of nothing! (writing wise at the moment, just a little here and there.) I've mostly been working on my home game that I run and lots and lots of yard work and gardening. Oh luck me, I get to mow the lawn this weekend

Carl

[Jorel]

I'm quite certain it said that Hades, where the Greek God Hades rules, is different from the Hades where demons rule.

You know, kind of like how the Three Galaxies has 17 different "earths"

Actually.....it never said that. Not in Pantheons of the Megaverse, anyway.
It said that Hades' personal kingdom is named Hades. It said that Hades has the Interdimensional Prison of Tartarus in his realm. It says he has borders with Demon Lords, and he has to guard against raids, but that he's so singularly powerful in his own realm that none dare challenge his power. It says he has treaties with some of his Demon Lord neighbors to stop raids being launched from their realms into his. It says Succor-Bemoth once came into his realm and was punished severely, and Succor-Bemoth holds a grudge to this day. And it says that Hades commands the demons known in Palladium as the Hordes of Hades, which live in the Palladium dimension known as Hades.
Seems like, if not the same place, then its one intimately tied to it.

I am given to understand that Hades (the dimension) is modeled almost exactly on the Palladium World. Given that there is a section of the Palladium World of unknown size behind some kind of "wall", perhaps the area of Hades (the dimension) corresponding to that hidden area is ruled by Hades (the god), and the Lords of Hades (the dimension) refuse to attack that area, or the massive numbers of Demons that live there under the command of Hades (the god). Just a possibility.

Basically the Realm of Hades, ruled by Hades the Greek Deity, which also contains the Inter-dimensional Prison of Tartarus, is a separate place from the Dimension of Hades, ruled by the Demon Lords, which contains an area also called Tartarus, though the Realm of Hades borders many demonic kingdoms that must be kept back...
...Huh.
At least that was what I thought until I sat down rereading things to answer.
What I'm now pondering is pure brick **** material.
It mentions Hades, the god, as so powerful few would dare challenge him, though he still had to be on guard for demonic attack and raids constantly, and in command of many things, including, and I quote, 'all the Hordes of Hades'. So I wonder what all that is and flip over to the referenced CB1 page, and find the underworld being named for its lord: Hades. So while I'm mulling that over I flip through the Hoards of Hades section and see many familiar Hades Demons.. including the Demon Lords and Modeus.
Then I flip back to Modeus in Hades and it all makes terrifying sense. Modeus is now so powerful in Hades that few would dare challenge him, and he commands all the Hordes of Hades.. all thanks to a little Book he wrested away from the previous Lord of Hades.
At this point I realized that a whole lot had been going on in the rest of the Megaverse during the passage of time from when CB1-2 came out until now, the last 7-8 years by the PA calendar alone has been pretty eventful. No reason the rest of the plots in the Megaverse wouldn't keep trucking along. No matter where Hade's Realm was located in Hades, he certainly cared more for his duties than about trying to be a ruler of demons, which the Omega Book made easy enough to keep them roughly in line while he went about his business, other than concerns about raids and attacks attempting to claim it for their own per the curse. Seems it was finally stolen away by Modeus to firmly cement himself as Lord even over other Demon Lords.
That leaves GMs to ponder the final fate of Hades and his personal Realm.. and his prisoners. Off hand, I would probably say that once the Book was acquired, there is a strong possibility of Demons vs the garrison of Hundred Handed and a fair amount of looting of treasures and magical items (which would go toward Minion War preparations), before a pull back and offer to allow Hades, the god, the opportunity to continue to watch his prison is relative peace if he does not meddle in their affairs. All and all, a good deal for Modeus not having to worry about those the gods of various pantheons would want sealed away, too much potential for rival powers being released and angry gods, and appeals to Hades' sense of duty. As for how Hades was able to lose the Book in the first place, there was that small matter of Freya, leaving the possibility for all kinds open of intra-pantheon conflict between Zeus and Hera, and conflict between the Olympians and the Norse.

Edit: As an aside, I must say this is some Spell of Legend level Thread Necromancy here. Also, in case I haven't mentioned it before- Great work with Hades, Carl!

Agreed on all fronts. Great take on Hades.

[anarchclown]

Home games are always fun. That's why I run about 4-6 games per week. (Yeah I have Aspergers, ADHD and a lot of time on my hands)

[bradshaw]

I think there should be a Rifter article that features The Olympian Hades taking Lord Modeus to a Megaversal version of the Peoples Court over the right to the Dimensional realm name.

[Jorel]

I think there should be a Rifter article that features The Olympian Hades taking Lord Modeus to a Megaversal version of the Peoples Court over the right to the Dimensional realm name.

Second that emotion.

[anarchclown]

I think Erin Tarn should totally be the lawyer representing the Olympians in a bid to seriously hurt Lord Modeus warefford. This would be achieved by forcing them not only to pay a hefty sum of universal credits in damages, but also by making them have to change the Logos on every piece of equipment, including coffee mugs and t-shirts.

[bradshaw]

I think Erin Tarn should totally be the lawyer representing the Olympians in a bid to seriously hurt Lord Modeus warefford. This would be achieved by forcing them not only to pay a hefty sum of universal credits in damages, but also by making them have to change the Logos on every piece of equipment, including coffee mugs and t-shirts.

In the Peoples court the Plaintiff and the Defendant represent themselves however if the Olympians needed legal defense for a trial by jury I'm thinking Erin Tarn who has the equivalent of today's Associate degree (if that) might fail in comparison to Themis, Astraia or Iustitia. (But who knows maybe Zeus and her had a fling or something and Erin gets put on the team.)

[anarchclown]

Either way it's the woman playing Shirley Schmit in Boston Legal that plays Erin Tarn in the movie adaptation.

[bradshaw]

Either way it's the woman playing Shirley Schmit in Boston Legal that plays Erin Tarn in the movie adaptation.

Candice Bergen as Erin Tarn. Agreed.

[anarchclown]

Alan Rickman as Modeus

[bradshaw]

Alan Rickman as Modeus

Gabriel Byrne as Hades

[anarchclown]

Inspired choice

[sHaka]

Christopher Walken - Sahtalus

[anarchclown]

Of course Sahtalus would only make a cameo appearance here. But it's a good choice nonetheless. Unless one could get Christopher Lee to play him.

[bradshaw]

Of course Sahtalus would only make a cameo appearance here. But it's a good choice nonetheless. Unless one could get Christopher Lee to play him.

Maybe Rob Zombie?

[csbioborg]

yes the old ones as the Supreme Court
for alleged IP violations

[anarchclown]

Awesome

[cornholioprime]

I am given to understand that Hades (the dimension) is modeled almost exactly on the Palladium World. Given that there is a section of the Palladium World of unknown size behind some kind of "wall", perhaps the area of Hades (the dimension) corresponding to that hidden area is ruled by Hades (the god), and the Lords of Hades (the dimension) refuse to attack that area, or the massive numbers of Demons that live there under the command of Hades (the god). Just a possibility.

Well........Yes and No.


"Hades as we know it" -the Palladium World version -is COMPLETELY mapped out (as of Rifts Dimension Book 10: Hades), and there's little to no chance that the Greek God Hades lives in the same physical space.

The two "Hades Realms" might very well be connected the same way that the various levels of Dyval are connected -that is to say, "borders" that can be crossed by going through the proper (permanent?) Portals and what-not, but not just some place where someone could just physically walk.

P.S. As far as I can tell, the Greek Hades is probably FAR older than the Palladium Hades, which is very strongly implied through at least 1-2 PFRPG Books and at least one of the Minion War Books to have been a realm created by the Old Ones as a extradimensional, larger, but otherwise 'mirror image' version of Planet Palladium (which they are also implied to have created).

[Tor]

"Hades as we know it" -the Palladium World version -is COMPLETELY mapped out (as of Rifts Dimension Book 10: Hades)

Does the book say anywhere that the map is complete and that nothing else exists beyond what is pictured or described?

there's little to no chance that the Greek God Hades lives in the same physical space.

He could live in their basement, the Greek Hades was traditionally subterranean.

The two "Hades Realms" might very well be connected the same way that the various levels of Dyval are connected -that is to say, "borders" that can be crossed by going through the proper (permanent?) Portals and what-not, but not just some place where someone could just physically walk.

Cept we're clearly told they're in the same dimension.

far as I can tell, the Greek Hades is probably FAR older than the Palladium Hades, which is very strongly implied through at least 1-2 PFRPG Books and at least one of the Minion War Books to have been a realm created by the Old Ones as a extradimensional, larger, but otherwise 'mirror image' version of Planet Palladium (which they are also implied to have created).

What indicates the Greek pantheon predates the Demon Lords?

[cornholioprime]

"Hades as we know it" -the Palladium World version -is COMPLETELY mapped out (as of Rifts Dimension Book 10: Hades)

Does the book say anywhere that the map is complete and that nothing else exists beyond what is pictured or described?

Yes.

A]] While Greek Hades has never yet been mapped out in the Palladium Books setting, Palladium Hades has.
The entirety of that (sub-)dimension consists of landmasses that are mirror-image opposites of the Palladium World, with fire/lava where rivers and oceans are on Palladium, and vice versa.

B]] Greek Hades is a pocket dimension of the extra-dimensional realm known as Olympia (Pantheons of the Megaverse, page 65); Palladium Hades is a pocket dimension of the extra-dimensional realm known as Palladium (various books).

C]] The Authors are gifted with 'God's-eye Vision;' as such, it wouldn't make much editorial sense to consistently and frequently refer to Hades as the undisputed ruler of Hades.....and also, simultaneously, consistently and frequently refer to Modeus as the undisputed ruler of Hades -unless, of course, they were talking about two different places coincidentally named "Hades."

D]] If Palladium Hades was one and the same as Greek Hades....then there wouldn't be a River Styx (made of water) for the dead to cross as described in Pantheons of the Megaverse; it would be a river of lava instead.

there's little to no chance that the Greek God Hades lives in the same physical space.

He could live in their basement, the Greek Hades was traditionally subterranean.

Correct, Hades is 'subterranean...' in Olympia.

The two "Hades Realms" might very well be connected the same way that the various levels of Dyval are connected -that is to say, "borders" that can be crossed by going through the proper (permanent?) Portals and what-not, but not just some place where someone could just physically walk.

Cept we're clearly told they're in the same dimension.

No we aren't, we are given C.J. Carella's nebulous use of the terms 'bordered' and 'realm' in the Pantheons book....which doesn't really tell anyone anything definitive.

far as I can tell, the Greek Hades is probably FAR older than the Palladium Hades, which is very strongly implied through at least 1-2 PFRPG Books and at least one of the Minion War Books to have been a realm created by the Old Ones as a extradimensional, larger, but otherwise 'mirror image' version of Planet Palladium (which they are also implied to have created).

What indicates the Greek pantheon predates the Demon Lords?

Compared to various texts in PFRPG and elsewhere, the universes outside the Palladium dimension appear to be billions of years old, while the Palladium realm is only implied to be 'merely' millions of years old (with the Old Ones implied to have come to the Palladium Dimension and Planet Palladium from the outside where, at some point afterward, they allegedly created Hades and the Deevil and Demon species).

[Tor]

"Hades as we know it" -the Palladium World version -is COMPLETELY mapped out (as of Rifts Dimension Book 10: Hades)

Does the book say anywhere that the map is complete and that nothing else exists beyond what is pictured or described?

Yes.

A]] While Greek Hades has never yet been mapped out in the Palladium Books setting, Palladium Hades has.
The entirety of that (sub-)dimension consists of landmasses that are mirror-image opposites of the Palladium World, with fire/lava where rivers and oceans are on Palladium, and vice versa.

Firstly: are we sure the map of the Palladium World is complete?

Secondly: how does this dispute the idea that Greek Hades could simply be under the mapped continents as a subterranean realm, much like the one Mictla lives in? There's plenty of room under the surfaces.

B]] Greek Hades is a pocket dimension of the extra-dimensional realm known as Olympia (Pantheons of the Megaverse, page 65)

I don't see where on page 65 it says that, could you point it out? Olympia is an extra-dimensional realm but I don't see where the idea of Hades Aidoneous living there comes from.

Page 112 is very clear that Ravana and Hades Aidoneous both share Modeus' dimension with him, and Yama is also indicated to take a peace.

Assuming all the CB2 guys to be subterranean and sorta keeping to themselves clears up any map conflicts.

Palladium Hades is a pocket dimension of the extra-dimensional realm known as Palladium (various books).

I'd like to see where it says that in one single book. Pocket dimensions are dimensions WITHIN dimensions. Hades is much like Voi or the Nightlands, a dark copy, but not a pocket dimension.

it wouldn't make much editorial sense to consistently and frequently refer to Hades as the undisputed ruler of Hades.....and also, simultaneously, consistently and frequently refer to Modeus as the undisputed ruler of Hades -unless, of course, they were talking about two different places coincidentally named "Hades."

Except CB2 clearly states that Modeus and Hades Aidoneous dominate portions of the same dimension.

Where did you see Mr. Aidoneous referred to as a supreme ruler? He rules and underground+transdimensional REALM aka 'Greek death realm', and he's the supreme ruler of THAT, but I don't recall him being called the ruler of the whole dimension.

D]] If Palladium Hades was one and the same as Greek Hades....then there wouldn't be a River Styx (made of water) for the dead to cross as described in Pantheons of the Megaverse; it would be a river of lava instead.

Hades is a mirror copy of the Palladium World, with fire where there is water.

Is it absurd to think there might be water where there is fire? Volcanos that spew water in rare places, for example?

The Greek death-realm is subterranean, so there being rivers of water deep underground meshes quite nicely.

Hades is 'subterranean...' in Olympia.

Olympia and Hades are referred to as separate places, Zeus divided the world into 3 places (Olympia, Hades and whatever Poseidon's home is called) please show me where Hades is described as a place within Olympia.

we're clearly told they're in the same dimension.

No we aren't, we are given C.J. Carella's nebulous use of the terms 'bordered' and 'realm' in the Pantheons book....which doesn't really tell anyone anything definitive.

I'm talking about 112 not Hades' section.

Compared to various texts in PFRPG and elsewhere, the universes outside the Palladium dimension appear to be billions of years old, while the Palladium realm is only implied to be 'merely' millions of years old (with the Old Ones implied to have come to the Palladium Dimension and Planet Palladium from the outside where, at some point afterward, they allegedly created Hades and the Deevil and Demon species).

Earth being older than Palladium wouldn't mean that Earth's gods are older than Palladium's gods though. We need guidelines on how far back the gods go. With the Greek pantheon that's under 10k, how long ago did Thoth help imprison the Old Ones with the help of one of the Dragon Gods?

Heck, with Thoth being an Old One and being a god of both worlds... maybe we should just say he's the oldest deity of both games and end it there?

[Armorlord]

Huh, activity in this old thread?
Well, even four years later, I'll have to stand by what I said/discovered further up this page.
Looks like Hades was top dog in Hades, then Modeus was, and by all appearances this was because he got the Book away from him, going by what is stated at least.
My suspicion remains that Hades would take a deal to continue to control Tartarus, maintaining something of a status quo.

[Tor]

Where does it indicate that Hades Aidoneous (who I will from herefore call Aidoneous to disambiguate from discussion of the dimension) once owned Modeus' book of demon names?

From what I recall reading, the former ruler of Hades was actually Mictla.

Per CB2, a couple do-gooder Aztecs (Xolotl and that dragon-god guy) beat up Mictla (so much that he had a gender change and became female, it seems.. what did they DO?) allowing Asmodeus (who later shortened his name to Modeus) to take control.

I don't recall seeing anything about Aidoneous ruling the entire dimension. His "Greek death realm" portion of Hades (of which the Tartarus prison is only a portion) is subterranean, while the majority of Modeus' realm is above-ground, so there isn't a huge amount of conflict.

Succor-Bemoth once tried to expand his realm underground and got slapped.

Mictla now guards Hades' underground, so presumably she and the likes of Charun and Cerberus probably hang out together occasionally.

My guess is that Mictla has tried to eat Charun a couple times but that he's too slippery for her.

[Armorlord]

Where does it indicate that Hades Aidoneous (who I will from herefore call Aidoneous to disambiguate from discussion of the dimension) once owned Modeus' book of demon names?

Well, CB2 clearly states that he commands 'all the Hordes of Hades' and references CB1 section for what that is, which as it turns out is all the Hades demons, including Modeus himself.

The Hades book features a Modeus who now commands all the hordes of Hades, citing the his rise to power as due to his acquisition of the Book from the unnamed previous Lord of Hades.

The clear implication being that in the constant raids by demons finally had a success, and Modeus gained direct control of the Hordes of Hades, setting the Minion War into motion.

[eliakon]

Where does it indicate that Hades Aidoneous (who I will from herefore call Aidoneous to disambiguate from discussion of the dimension) once owned Modeus' book of demon names?

Well, CB2 clearly states that he commands 'all the Hordes of Hades' and references CB1 section for what that is, which as it turns out is all the Hades demons, including Modeus himself.

The Hades book features a Modeus who now commands all the hordes of Hades, citing the his rise to power as due to his acquisition of the Book from the unnamed previous Lord of Hades.

The clear implication being that in the constant raids by demons finally had a success, and Modeus gained direct control of the Hordes of Hades, setting the Minion War into motion.

Or that there are two hades.....We don't have anything (that I know of) that explicitly says there can't be multiple places called Hades, I mean we have multiple Earths right?

[Armorlord]

Or that there are two hades.....We don't have anything (that I know of) that explicitly says there can't be multiple places called Hades, I mean we have multiple Earths right?

Correct, but less likely that there are multiple sets of the same major demon lords known in many dimensions ruling the same collection of demons in a place called Hades. If nothing else they would have assimilated each other violently, given what we know of them.

[eliakon]

Or that there are two hades.....We don't have anything (that I know of) that explicitly says there can't be multiple places called Hades, I mean we have multiple Earths right?

Correct, but less likely that there are multiple sets of the same major demon lords known in many dimensions ruling the same collection of demons in a place called Hades. If nothing else they would have assimilated each other violently, given what we know of them.

Just off hand....why? the CB1 mentions there being multiple beings with the same names that are not the same being. And since prior to the Taut Offensive it seems that invading others realms was not the norm.....*shrugs* it would seem to me that the simplest solution is 'all the books are right, its our understanding that's flawed' which is best supported by 'there are a bunch of different hades, for different places' (which also gets around having to have PF be known to everyone that dimensionally travels....and of course the huge problems of not enough demons to go around....if there are multiple hades, then you have more demons yah multiple birds with one stone, SCORE)

[Armorlord]

Just off hand....why? the CB1 mentions there being multiple beings with the same names that are not the same being. And since prior to the Taut Offensive it seems that invading others realms was not the norm.....*shrugs* it would seem to me that the simplest solution is 'all the books are right, its our understanding that's flawed' which is best supported by 'there are a bunch of different hades, for different places' (which also gets around having to have PF be known to everyone that dimensionally travels....and of course the huge problems of not enough demons to go around....if there are multiple hades, then you have more demons yah multiple birds with one stone, SCORE)

All the books being right was where I got my solution from.
Wasn't aware PF being known needed getting around. It is/was the homebase of the Great Old Ones and a major megaversal battleground, there not much way for knowledgeable folks NOT to have heard of it.

[eliakon]

Just off hand....why? the CB1 mentions there being multiple beings with the same names that are not the same being. And since prior to the Taut Offensive it seems that invading others realms was not the norm.....*shrugs* it would seem to me that the simplest solution is 'all the books are right, its our understanding that's flawed' which is best supported by 'there are a bunch of different hades, for different places' (which also gets around having to have PF be known to everyone that dimensionally travels....and of course the huge problems of not enough demons to go around....if there are multiple hades, then you have more demons yah multiple birds with one stone, SCORE)

All the books being right was where I got my solution from.
Wasn't aware PF being known needed getting around. It is/was the homebase of the Great Old Ones and a major megaversal battleground, there not much way for knowledgeable folks NOT to have heard of it.

Except that if it WAS common knowledge then there would be more visitors. There aren't ergo its not a dimensional hub. (Note the letter about it in the Megaverse Builder)
Which is in itself not that surprising since as things now stand the GOOs are just one of many badies that have come and gone. They aren't even the worst (There are mentions of other nasties out there that are supposedly worse in some of the books) Which helps, now they are just one of a string of nasty evil badguys instead of THE nasty evil bad guy (helps in some ways, of course it messes with continuity in other ways but meh)
And I STILL have a problem with Hades the Greek god ruling a realm that is shaped like a pocket world from someplace else (and that appears to be Styxless) If for no other reason then it begs the question of Where are the other Greek gods when some one usurped Hades throne?

[Armorlord]

Well, almost every powerful entity in the Megaverse wants to have as little to do with the Palladium World as possible, lest something manage to disturb the Great Old Ones and force them to serve or fight them. Alien Intelligences everywhere would go to extreme lengths to avoid having the place disturbed.

As far as I'm aware, there is/was/has been no bigger baddie in the Megaverse than the Great Old Ones, though The Dark might want to contend for that spot.

[Armorlord]

And I STILL have a problem with Hades the Greek god ruling a realm that is shaped like a pocket world from someplace else (and that appears to be Styxless) If for no other reason then it begs the question of Where are the other Greek gods when some one usurped Hades throne?

Someplace else? As Opposed to what? Earth? We're talking about pantheons with a presence in multiple worlds and realities. Styx, if there is one, likely resides underground along with the rest of Hades' holdings.

As for the other Olympians, they're jerks, and Hades was dealing with demon raids all the time on his own just fine. Since it hasn't escalated further, my assumption is that Modeus has otherwise left Hades and Tartarus alone since rising to power.
A loss of standing for Hades is more likely something most Olympians would just give Hades grief for. It would take a serious blow or insult to raise the ire of the other self-serving types.
Let's face it, Hades is the only non-asshole among them, outside of a couple demigods.

[Tor]

CB2 clearly states that he commands 'all the Hordes of Hades' and references CB1 section for what that is

There's actually two ways to read that section. It reads "commands a legion of ghouls all kinds, succubus, incubus, mares/nightmares, and all the Hordes of Hades"

You could take "legion of" to apply only to the first (ghouls) or to the entire list, meaning collectively, the legion Hades commands could be composed of ghouls/cubi/mares/Hordes.

In the latter case a "legion of all the Hordes of Hades" would only mean that Hordes of Hades compose the group, and not that Hades commands ALL of the Hordes.

I'm inclined to take that view since it doesn't contradict Modeus being presented as the supreme leader.

The Hades book features a Modeus who now commands all the hordes of Hades, citing the his rise to power as due to his acquisition of the Book from the unnamed previous Lord of Hades. The clear implication being that in the constant raids by demons finally had a success, and Modeus gained direct control of the Hordes of Hades, setting the Minion War into motion.

The problem with that approach is that it ignores that Modeus has always been presented as the leader. He was named leader in CB1 which was referenced by CB2. CB2 mentioned nothing about Modeus not being the leader anymore. In fact, it says elsewhere (under Aztecs) that he is.

So the best explanation is that Hades, as a sub-boss of Hades, commands a variety demons in his legion, but not all of them.

Or that there are two hades.....We don't have anything (that I know of) that explicitly says there can't be multiple places called Hades, I mean we have multiple Earths right?

There can be multiple Hades, sure.

But we are explicitly told on page 112 of CB2 that Aidoneous' death-realm is in the same dimension as Modeus' realm. Hades is "the eerie dimension" of which Aidoneous, Ravana, Yama and Modeus all rule portion.

Yama and Hel are buddies with Mictla.

I STILL have a problem with Hades the Greek god ruling a realm that is shaped like a pocket world from someplace else (and that appears to be Styxless)

The SURFACE is Styxless.

Aidoneous rules the basement.

Hades explicitly switches fire and water.

Rivers of fire on the surface equals "lava" flows of water underground.

If for no other reason then it begs the question of Where are the other Greek gods when some one usurped Hades throne?

Who says anyone did?

Someplace else? As Opposed to what? Earth? We're talking about pantheons with a presence in multiple worlds and realities. Styx, if there is one, likely resides underground along with the rest of Hades' holdings.

Yup. The only neighbour's going to be Mictla, really.

In fact I have it on good authority that Cerberus and Charun are both trying to be Mictla's boyfriend ever since dude became a lady.

[SolCannibal]

Someplace else? As Opposed to what? Earth? We're talking about pantheons with a presence in multiple worlds and realities. Styx, if there is one, likely resides underground along with the rest of Hades' holdings.

Yup. The only neighbour's going to be Mictla, really.

In fact I have it on good authority that Cerberus and Charun are both trying to be Mictla's boyfriend ever since dude became a lady.

Depends if we are even talking the same Mictla and demon realm, as Dragon & Gods seems to completely ditch the idea of Mictla as a previous ruler of the realm whom Modeus challenged but eventually negotiated into relinquishing the throne for him in exchange for keeping a good chunk of the whole (not to mention the stuff in Pantheons of Megaverse about Ravana, Yama, Kansa).
There might be enough dissonance between the two versions to more than justify the Conversion Book one being a similar but different being (some sort of predecessor, mate or parent maybe?) if not a complete impostor like they did with Mephisto.

As an aside, i find it curious that descriptively the Deevyl's realm and its inhabitants seem to have more in common with the greek myth and their underworld than Palladium's Hades and its demons.

[Fyrpower]

I'd say the dimensions are linked in some way but almost impossible or extremly difficult for each to get to one another. I'd also like to think Greek Hades' minions will be more spirit/death related rather than the infernal demons in the Hades dimension book, probably more like phantom knights etc.

[SolCannibal]

I'd say the dimensions are linked in some way but almost impossible or extremly difficult for each to get to one another. I'd also like to think Greek Hades' minions will be more spirit/death related rather than the infernal demons in the Hades dimension book, probably more like phantom knights etc.

On my own i would go with furies, lamiae, gorgons, mormos, with a smattering of griffins, chimerae, minotaurs, satyrs, hydras and giant beasts to occupy the place as wardens & vassals of Aidoneus, much like in greek myth. The funny thing is Dyval already covers much of that same terrain with its "evil Arcadia" vibe.

[The Beast]

Original CB1 = Mictla was the Aztec Mexicans’ god of the dead and lord of Hades. Lost it when Modeus beat him in a battle that lasted 300 years. Mephisto is the only listed devil lord, and he is listed as the Lord of Dyval.

CB2 = Succor-Bemoth was nearly killed by Hades when the former invaded the latter’s realm. The name of Hades’ realm is not mentioned. Hel (from the Norse Gods) considers Mictla an ally. This note also again says Mictla was an Aztec god who once rules Hades.

PFRPG = 2nd edition removed the demon/deevil lords and put them in Dragons & Gods. I don’t know what the 1st edition had said about them.

Dragons & Gods = Sahtalus is listed as the Supreme Lord of Dyval, Mephisto is said to be secretly plotting to remove Sahtalus. This book has a Hel listed as well, but this Hel is from the Northern Gods, daughter of Loknar. She is the wife of Sahtalus. Mictla went from being male to being female , and is the only one of four of Modeus’ trusted allies that is truly loyal to him. There is no mention of her being the Aztec’s god of death.

Land of the Dammed 1 = Details Modeus gathering his forces from the other demon lords, and then searching for a place in the Megaverse to test his troops out. He was tricked by the Gods of Light into using the Great Rift for the test, with neither the demons nor the deevils gaining the upper hand. The only other changes from D&G appear to be describing how the demon and deevil lords are reacting to Modeus’ Minion War. The majority of the changes are on the demons’ side.

Dark Conversions = Modeus is now a supernatural intelligence. Mictla is back to being the Aztec/Mexican god of death and previous lord of Hades, but is still female, and is a SI as well. Abrasax and Belphegor are the only other demon lords mentioned; no real information that wasn’t previously given is mentioned. No mention of Sahtalus having a wife, Mephisto still hates him. No other lords are mentioned.

DB10 = Starting on page 82 are details on each demon lord and how the expanding Minion War effects them. Modeus had to get the Omega Book from the prior lord of Hades, who previously was Mictla. No mention of her being an Aztec god of death again and no mention of her losing Lordship of Hades to Modeus. No stats of any demon lord are given. The southern continent of Hades is called Tartarus, which is the same name for Zeus’ bother Hades’ inter-dimensional prison. In Modeus’ castle is said to be a rather insane elf that says he must get back to Palladium to make sure his enchantments over the slumbering Old Ones aren’t wearing off.

DB11 = Only a small section is written on the deevil lords on page 78. Hel is finally mentioned as Lady Dyval, and under her first minion it mentions the two of them coming from Odguard. Strangely it appears that the picture of Hel is a combination of Hel from the Norse Gods, and Hel from the Northern Gods.

[cornholioprime]

Original CB1 = Mictla was the Aztec Mexicans’ god of the dead and lord of Hades. Lost it when Modeus beat him in a battle that lasted 300 years. Mephisto is the only listed devil lord, and he is listed as the Lord of Dyval.

CB2 = Succor-Bemoth was nearly killed by Hades when the former invaded the latter’s realm. The name of Hades’ realm is not mentioned. Hel (from the Norse Gods) considers Mictla an ally. This note also again says Mictla was an Aztec god who once rules Hades.

PFRPG = 2nd edition removed the demon/deevil lords and put them in Dragons & Gods. I don’t know what the 1st edition had said about them.

Dragons & Gods = Sahtalus is listed as the Supreme Lord of Dyval, Mephisto is said to be secretly plotting to remove Sahtalus. This book has a Hel listed as well, but this Hel is from the Northern Gods, daughter of Loknar. She is the wife of Sahtalus. Mictla went from being male to being female , and is the only one of four of Modeus’ trusted allies that is truly loyal to him. There is no mention of her being the Aztec’s god of death.

Land of the Dammed 1 = Details Modeus gathering his forces from the other demon lords, and then searching for a place in the Megaverse to test his troops out. He was tricked by the Gods of Light into using the Great Rift for the test, with neither the demons nor the deevils gaining the upper hand. The only other changes from D&G appear to be describing how the demon and deevil lords are reacting to Modeus’ Minion War. The majority of the changes are on the demons’ side.

Dark Conversions = Modeus is now a supernatural intelligence. Mictla is back to being the Aztec/Mexican god of death and previous lord of Hades, but is still female, and is a SI as well. Abrasax and Belphegor are the only other demon lords mentioned; no real information that wasn’t previously given is mentioned. No mention of Sahtalus having a wife, Mephisto still hates him. No other lords are mentioned.

DB10 = Starting on page 82 are details on each demon lord and how the expanding Minion War effects them. Modeus had to get the Omega Book from the prior lord of Hades, who previously was Mictla. No mention of her being an Aztec god of death again and no mention of her losing Lordship of Hades to Modeus. No stats of any demon lord are given. The southern continent of Hades is called Tartarus, which is the same name for Zeus’ bother Hades’ inter-dimensional prison. In Modeus’ castle is said to be a rather insane elf that says he must get back to Palladium to make sure his enchantments over the slumbering Old Ones aren’t wearing off.

DB11 = Only a small section is written on the deevil lords on page 78. Hel is finally mentioned as Lady Dyval, and under her first minion it mentions the two of them coming from Odguard. Strangely it appears that the picture of Hel is a combination of Hel from the Norse Gods, and Hel from the Northern Gods.

Chronologically, CB1 Original was the first -and last -time that Modeus and Mictla and Sahtahlus were mentioned as full-blown Alien Intelligences.

In all of the books to date, C.J. Carella was the one and only person to try and retcon Palladium Hades into being a vast realm physically connected with Greek Hades...but before and after CB2, he was essentially overruled by indirect mention if not an out-and-out refutation of his proposed designs for the two realms (three if you count Ravana's home).

Palladium Hades as it has been described in every single book outside of CB2 cannot possibly be connected to Greek Hades as Carella describes it because

1. Palladium Hades' 'reverse-water/fire' setup makes it impossible for The River Styx to be present, since it leads travelers into Greek Hades from 'the outside;'
2. Palladium Hades has been thoroughly mapped out at this point in time, and nowhere in its topography is there even the slightest mention of the god Hades as its co-ruler, nor Greek Hades as a separate region, nor is there any mention whatsoever of Ravana or his realm;
3. Palladium Hades' only mentioned underground regions in every book apart from CB2 are said to be occupied by Mictla and Belphegor, again with no mention whatsoever of Greek Hades -which essentially debunks the 'Maybe Greek Hades is in the underground region of Palladium Hades' argument.

[SolCannibal]

CB2 = Succor-Bemoth was nearly killed by Hades when the former invaded the latter’s realm. The name of Hades’ realm is not mentioned. Hel (from the Norse Gods) considers Mictla an ally. This note also again says Mictla was an Aztec god who once rules Hades.

Actually, you forgot to mention...

CB2, pg.20 = Tezcatlipoca occasionally associates with demons, vampires and Mictla, the Aztec ruler of the Underworld.

CB2, pg.25 = The dog-headed god Xolotl has accompanied Quetzalcoatl on many quests, including a heroic trip to the realm of Mictla, demon ruler of the Underworld. The two friends enjoyed vanquishing Mictla, weakening his power, but victory was short lived for his defeat inadvertently helped the current ruler of Hades, Asmodeus, rise to power.

CB2, pg.52 = Ereshkigal would also like to expand her realm, at the expense of the many evil entities that live in Hades. She might covertly work with any force to get what she wants.

CB2, pg.70 = Hades' realm has borders with many demonic kingdoms As a result, he has to be constantly on guard against raids and attacks The realm of Hades is also full of treasure, both in material wealth and magical items However, Hades' power is so incredible in his realm that few demons and godlmgs dare to challenge him openly. Instead, the most foolhardy and brave try to sneak in and steal items of value or retrieve prisoners, but most of these endeavors have ended disastrously.

CB2, pg.72 = Beside Zeus and Poseidon, Hades has few other allies, other than a few neighboring demon lords (not named) who have agreed to make sure that intruders don't enter Hades from their lands. He also commands a legion of ghouls of all kinds, succubus, incubus, mares/nightmares, and all the Hordes of Hades (see Rifts Conversion Book One, page 209). (those are on the same page as the incident with Succor-Bemoth).

CB2, pg.112 = Ravana, King of the Raksashas, makes his residence in a portion of Demonic Hades which is in effect, an independent kingdom beyond the influence of the Greek god Hades or the Demon Lord Modeus (see Rifts Conversion Book One). The Demon Lord has not challenged Ravana regarding his underworld kingdom for fear of defeat, while Hades is content with his massive part of the eerie dimension. Of course, individual gods of India have met, befriended or clashed with other gods, godlings, demons and monsters with varying results and lasting sentiments.

CB2, pg.135 = Yama has a non-aggression pact with the other rulers of Hades. The god will not attack or allow anyone in his land to attack his neighbors. Yama is also secretly conspiring with Mictla (see Rifts Conversion Book One), the former supreme ruler of Hades. The two are thinking of ways to wrestle control of Hades from Modeus and to lead all the demons of Hades in a diabolic crusade against the Forces of Light. This is a long-term plan that neither god is planning to enact for centuries, if ever.

CB2, pg.138 = Ravana and Kansa have reached an agreement not to interfere with each other, but the two great demons do not trust each other enough to work together. The same goes for Modeus.
- This part is, i'm first to admit pretty dubious, it might mean Ravana & Kansa have non-interference agreements with each other and Modeus or that only Ravana has such pacts. And, in theory, Kansa having such an agreement on itself doesn't mean his kingdom is part of the same dimension as the other two.

CB2, pg.194 = Ahriman was defeated when the Gods of Light called elemental spirits to their side. The evil god was finally imprisoned in another dimension which he rules but cannot leave. Ahriman has plotted to escape and destroy all life on the worlds on which that last battle was fought, including Earth. During his imprisonment, Ahriman has met and made pacts with dozens of other evil beings, including the rulers of both Hades and Dyval.
- Much like with Kansa, the existence of pacts and agreements with other entities doesn't on itself have to mean shared borders. On one side of the matter, the fact Ahriman has deals with Dyval would be a point against it, on the other side, the fact Ahriman needs major effort to send agents to any places beside his realm could be seem to imply a sort of interconnectedness, or a pretty high degree of desperation. It's up for grabs, really.

Chronologically, CB1 Original was the first -and last -time that Modeus and Mictla and Sahtahlus were mentioned as full-blown Alien Intelligences.

Actually Modeus, Mictla and Mephisto, if memory tricks me not. Dragon & Gods would then put all the book in a peculiar light by presenting those 3 in quite different portrayal AND mentioning an "Alien Intelligence Impostor Mephisto" acting in Rifts Earth, but only him, leaving Modeus & Mictla's own inconsistencies (of interaction, position & gender) in a sort of nebulous limbo. As things currently stand, if not both, at least CB1's "Aztec God of Death & previous ruler of Hades" could just as well be a different being.

And on another note, yes, C.J. Carella made some serious effort in CB2 (spread through a lot of little references) to sell the idea of Palladium's Hades as some sort of demon-overworld shared by a bunch of demon lords & darker gods, something that, as you pointed out, indeed fits no other book before or after.

Another possible way of interpreting it, and easier to fit with the other books (i hope), might be as several separate demonic dimensions with a tendency to frequently rift or fade/fuse into each other (like the Fadetown in the Magic Zone or Yucatan in Vampire Kingdoms), resulting in a number of border disputes or conflicts when one god or demon lords gets in the mood to expand or try to fuse dimensions - something possible with the divine abilities from Dragons & Gods, no? - and treaties made between those beings with other priorities of their own.

[The Beast]

Actually, you forgot to mention...

Technically it wasn't as much "forgetting to mention" but more as "not bothering to look under the other gods as much as the demon/devil lords."

[SolCannibal]

Actually, you forgot to mention...

Technically it wasn't as much "forgetting to mention" but more as "not bothering to look under the other gods as much as the demon/devil lords."

Fair point, you went for mostly what the topic already mentioned was there - and the homonym of Sahtalus' wife.


edit: Had almost forgotten, just remembered seeing a possible explanation for the confusion behind Mictla's gender.

[Tor]

Depends if we are even talking the same Mictla and demon realm, as Dragon & Gods seems to completely ditch the idea of Mictla as a previous ruler of the realm whom Modeus challenged but eventually negotiated into relinquishing the throne for him in exchange for keeping a good chunk of the whole (not to mention the stuff in Pantheons of Megaverse about Ravana, Yama, Kansa).

The Aztec section of Pantheons reinforces Mictla as the previous ruler though, and mentions it was Quetz+Doggie messing with Mictla who weakened him enough to allow Asmodeus to take over. Did CB3 even remove the prior-ruler text for Mictla from CB1? I think it came out after D+G.

Interesting idea occurred to me with Mictla being an 'it' in PRPG, a 'him' in CB1, and a 'her' in D+G/CB3, is perhaps Mictla is a multi-gendered entity (hermaphrodite? androgyne?) or one who rotates their sex over time, or someone subjected to one or more gender changes as time went by.

There might be enough dissonance between the two versions to more than justify the Conversion Book one being a similar but different being (some sort of predecessor, mate or parent maybe?) if not a complete impostor like they did with Mephisto.

Part of the problem with D+G's imposter theory with Meph is we're still left guessing who rules what...

The imposter is listed as impersonating on Rifts Earth, but CB1 had established Meph as the sole ruler of Dyval (having ditched Satan from PRPG, and not yet introducing Sahtalus in D+G) so perhaps there is a "Dyval" (perhaps single-dimension) separate from the multi-planar realm of Dyval introduced as a Rifts Dimension Book.

I'd say the dimensions are linked in some way but almost impossible or extremly difficult for each to get to one another.

This conflicts with Aidoneous' Greek death-realm being invaded by Succor-Bemoth and explicit statements about them being in the same dimension.

I'd also like to think Greek Hades' minions will be more spirit/death related rather than the infernal demons in the Hades dimension book, probably more like phantom knights etc.

Some certainly could be, but Aidoneous explicitly commands certain traditional PF demons too.

I don't think there's stopping any Demon Knights (particularly those made Undead via that disease) from turning to Aidoneous' pay if he offers enough.

Original CB1 = Mictla was the Aztec Mexicans’ god of the dead and lord of Hades. Lost it when Modeus beat him in a battle that lasted 300 years.

Dark Conversions = Modeus is now a supernatural intelligence. Mictla is back to being the Aztec/Mexican god of death and previous lord of Hades, but is still female, and is a SI as well.

Unlike Succor/Belphegor/Abrasax, CB1 had big bold "Supernatural Intelligence" headings below Modeus and Mictla's names, your summary makes it sound like Mictla being a SI is a DB3 intro, but I think he/she always was.

C.J. Carella was the one and only person to try and retcon Palladium Hades into being a vast realm physically connected with Greek Hades

That wasn't a ret-con. CB2 simply expanded on Palladium's Hades by describing other realms in it, namely the subterranean/unmapped ones.

It was the disassociation (or almost-complete ignoral) with CB2 that was the ret-con.

before and after CB2, he was essentially overruled by indirect mention if not an out-and-out refutation of his proposed designs for the two realms (three if you count Ravana's home).

I'm not sure what you mean by 'before' CB2.

CJ could not have been out-ruled before CB2, because if that was the case, CB2 could not have been published.

The over-rule came after with KS ret-conned or ignored many CB2 changes (and of course, CB1 info that KS also introduced also got ret-conned, just like PRPG stuff got ret-conned, unless one takes the 'many incarnations' approach)

Palladium Hades as it has been described in every single book outside of CB2 cannot possibly be connected to Greek Hades as Carella describes it because Palladium Hades' 'reverse-water/fire' setup makes it impossible for The River Styx to be present, since it leads travelers into Greek Hades from 'the outside;'

'Outside' is a subjective label. I'm not seeing how you don't understand how this makes sense.

Our earth has subterranean lava flows. Hades flips lava and water. So clearly, River styx is an underground river which leads to the subterranean Greek death-realm province of the Hades world.

Palladium Hades has been thoroughly mapped out at this point in time, and nowhere in its topography is there even the slightest mention of the god Hades as its co-ruler, nor Greek Hades as a separate region, nor is there any mention whatsoever of Ravana or his realm

That is not a direct conflict. Omitting a previously established connection is not the same as out-ruling it.

Palladium Hades' only mentioned underground regions in every book apart from CB2 are said to be occupied by Mictla and Belphegor, again with no mention whatsoever of Greek Hades -which essentially debunks the 'Maybe Greek Hades is in the underground region of Palladium Hades' argument.

Please provide more explicit quotes, if you think any actually prohibit Aidoneous' realm. Not mentioning the other realms is not the same as presenting information that rules them out.

C.J. Carella made some serious effort in CB2 (spread through a lot of little references) to sell the idea of Palladium's Hades as some sort of demon-overworld shared by a bunch of demon lords & darker gods
something that, as you pointed out, indeed fits no other book before or after.

I don't agree with that characterization. CB2 fit quite well with CB1 and many other Rifts books. In fact I would only say there are only a few later books it did not fit with, later books which created conflicts with much of the Rifts line, by ignoring CB2 data even though they are part of a complex intricacy of plots including some reflected in other Rifts books (like Atlantis, Mercs, Wormwood, etc)

[SolCannibal]

Thread necromancy, ho!!!

Depends if we are even talking the same Mictla and demon realm, as Dragon & Gods seems to completely ditch the idea of Mictla as a previous ruler of the realm whom Modeus challenged but eventually negotiated into relinquishing the throne for him in exchange for keeping a good chunk of the whole (not to mention the stuff in Pantheons of Megaverse about Ravana, Yama, Kansa).

The Aztec section of Pantheons reinforces Mictla as the previous ruler though, and mentions it was Quetz+Doggie messing with Mictla who weakened him enough to allow Asmodeus to take over. Did CB3 even remove the prior-ruler text for Mictla from CB1? I think it came out after D+G.

CB1 is from late '91, CB2 is from '94, D+G (is it called CB3 anywhere) from '96, so it is undeniably the last book - also with the fact the Dimension Books for Dyval and Hades seem to be heavily reference it, the implication seems to be that D+G supersedes the previous books on what relates to the lords of Demons and Deevyls and the Minion War.

Interesting idea occurred to me with Mictla being an 'it' in PRPG, a 'him' in CB1, and a 'her' in D+G/CB3, is perhaps Mictla is a multi-gendered entity (hermaphrodite? androgyne?) or one who rotates their sex over time, or someone subjected to one or more gender changes as time went by.

Could certainly be - another viable alternative would be for D+G Mitcla to be Mictlancihuatl his distaff counterpart/wife in aztec myth.

There might be enough dissonance between the two versions to more than justify the Conversion Book one being a similar but different being (some sort of predecessor, mate or parent maybe?) if not a complete impostor like they did with Mephisto.

Part of the problem with D+G's imposter theory with Meph is we're still left guessing who rules what...

The imposter is listed as impersonating on Rifts Earth, but CB1 had established Meph as the sole ruler of Dyval (having ditched Satan from PRPG, and not yet introducing Sahtalus in D+G) so perhaps there is a "Dyval" (perhaps single-dimension) separate from the multi-planar realm of Dyval introduced as a Rifts Dimension Book.

The explanation would be that CB1 info on Mephisto is incorrect stuff learned by groups from Rifts Earth through the intervention/influence of the "alien intelligence imposter" that has been impersonating him. Satan is just another name for Sahtalus afaik. It doesn't solve everything, but deals with the Dyval side of things at least.

C.J. Carella made some serious effort in CB2 (spread through a lot of little references) to sell the idea of Palladium's Hades as some sort of demon-overworld shared by a bunch of demon lords & darker gods something that, as you pointed out, indeed fits no other book before or after.

I don't agree with that characterization. CB2 fit quite well with CB1 and many other Rifts books. In fact I would only say there are only a few later books it did not fit with, later books which created conflicts with much of the Rifts line, by ignoring CB2 data even though they are part of a complex intricacy of plots including some reflected in other Rifts books (like Atlantis, Mercs, Wormwood, etc)

More precise would be to say those books are neutral to it, as most worldbooks, sourcebooks and dimension books are not dependent or even reference either take of those realms, their rulers and denizens.

The fact remains that "Hades as an over-hell that contains all demon-realms" is wholy a CB2-only thing and one that at least in part ignores the idea from CB1 that there are several unconnected demon realms across the Megaverse, with Hades and Dyval being just two among the most notorious.

[Tor]

Necromancy is a beloved past-time in Hades, no worries.

CB1 is from late '91, CB2 is from '94, D+G (is it called CB3 anywhere) from '96, so it is undeniably the last book - also with the fact the Dimension Books for Dyval and Hades seem to be heavily reference it, the implication seems to be that D+G supersedes the previous books on what relates to the lords of Demons and Deevyls and the Minion War.

Superceding is only necessary in the case of unavoidable contradictions though. A new book leaving a detail out does not necessarily mean it no longer exists. Does Thoth not being given the Stone Master OCC in D+G (which he got in Rifts Africa) mean that Thoth is no longer a Stone Master? Can Chaing-Ku no longer make the Elixer of Power and Deceit because D+G did not stat it?

The interesting things with NPCS is we can view new stats as a new change or a new being, which could be the case with Mictla. We have more than one Mephisto, I think THREE ladies called Lilith, so we can just dupe to avoid inconsistent texts.

"Hades as an over-hell that contains all demon-realms" is wholy a CB2-only thing and one that at least in part ignores the idea from CB1 that there are several unconnected demon realms across the Megaverse

CB2 did not say that, it simply adds new kingdoms to Hades, it doesn't say Dyval is within hades or anything like what you're saying.

[Nursahburen]

Perhaps Hades Kingdom from CB2 can be retconned to be located in the location corresponding to the North presented in the new Byzantium book? (So push come to shove Dyval could never truly win because if they managed to concur the Demons of Hades then they would still have to contend with the god Hades and possibly the entire Greco-Roman Pantheon)***

[Tor]

I don't mind giving them a surface outpost there, but I'm standing by my 'Aidoneous rules the underground' theory.