Permanence Wards

[Crazy Lou]

Ok, so permanence can be sewn into living creatures, but they can't be SN creatures or creatures of magic. I want to know what everyone thinks would happen if a creature has a Permanence ward sewn onto him, and then later in his life becomes a SN creature or creature of magic?

[drewkitty ~..~]

All foreign matter is expelled by the bio-regen powers.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Except that it's clear that Permance Wards actually bind to the life essence of the person, and thus become part of them. Similar to Bio-Wizardy.

[Crazy Lou]

What I'm making permanent doesn't really matter. No matter what spell was combined with the permanence ward, the results in the OP situation ought to be the same, so I didn't specify. Uh, let's say "Telekinesis" if you want a particular spell.

In regards to sewing permanence wards:

Note: A permanence ward can only be applied to a living creature by sewing on the character's body (other wards can be glued or sewn; area affect wards cannot be used on a living being). Activation of the permanence ward with other wards or spell magic can be used to endow the person with abilities that can be normally bestowed via magic, such as invisibility, invulnerability, resist fire, nightvision, blind, curse, magic sickness, etc. Spells like fire ball, wall of fire, wind rush, call lightning, illusions, and similar cannot be given to a living being via a permanence ward. After a year, the permanence ward magically bonds to the body and cannot be removed except surgically. Removing the ward inflicts 1D6x10 damage direct to the hit points of the warded person and 2D4x10 damage to everybody within a five foot (1.5 m) radius around him at the time it is removed.

A permanence ward affixed to a living being is extremely rare. Although it may give the character a magical power, it does not endow him with special healing, invulnerability, bonuses to save vs magic, or a longer life. A permanence ward cannot be attached to creatures of magic or supernatural beings.

There's the relevant permanence ward info.

[Khanibal]

After a year, the permanence ward magically bonds to the body and cannot be removed except surgically. Removing the ward inflicts 1D6x10 damage direct to the hit points of the warded person and 2D4x10 damage to everybody within a five foot (1.5 m) radius around him at the time it is removed.

Or with a surface grinder.

Hmmm... I wonder if a Flesh Sculpter from NB could take one off with less trouble.

[Khanibal]

I don't know about no limits, but you only have so much skin area.

[Crazy Lou]

You can only put one permanence ward on a living being. No "Ward-man" OCC, sorry.

Also, not all SN beings have bio-regeneration. Not all SN beings who do have bio-regeneration will grow back removed parts (think brodkil). Surgery (or amputation or violence, etc) can remove a part of them, and it won't grow back. However if that part isn't removed it will still regenerate, is still a part of them, and still functions. The ward that's now a part of the being might be that sort of thing, where it's even regenerated if damaged as long as it's not removed.

But that's just an interpretation of course (one I tend to prefer), and I'm not arguing with your point Daemon M (just a clarification).

[Crazy Lou]

I've thought about the spell providing MDC before. I concluded that since all the permanence ward does is give something an infinite duration, unless the spell itself provided a regeneration also, the MDC, once depleted, would be gone and you would become an SDC being again. In the invulnerability case, you'd get 50 MDC until its depleted, but once that's done, you just have the bonuses left (which still rock). Invincible armor however has an MDC regeneration, so I believe that even if the armor was completely depleted, it would continue to regenerate from 0 until i was back again. This is because the spell lasts forever, so unlike the spell being ended by the armor's depletion, it is still active and so continues to regenerate.

That's what I'd do anyway. I don't believe there's an official canon ruling anywhere though.

[The Dark Elf]

You can only put one permanence ward on a living being. No "Ward-man" OCC, sorry.

The NPC of Archie In "Island at the edge of the world" has several permanence wards on him. - Although ofc he is an NPC.

I have alsways ruled that permanence wards were for wards only, no spell magic. We have recently crossed over to 2nd ed. PF from 1st Ed. and am struggling with the permanence wards affecting spell magic concept. Nvm, may house rule it.

[Goliath Strongarm]

You can only put one permanence ward on a living being. No "Ward-man" OCC, sorry.

The NPC of Archie In "Island at the edge of the world" has several permanence wards on him. - Although ofc he is an NPC.

I have alsways ruled that permanence wards were for wards only, no spell magic. We have recently crossed over to 2nd ed. PF from 1st Ed. and am struggling with the permanence wards affecting spell magic concept. Nvm, may house rule it.

Simple way to view it is that wards affect the result of the spell, not the spell itself..

IE, a wall made by spell could have a perm ward put on it, effecting the wall. Hence why spells like lightning/fireball/etc cannot be done.

As for a person with spells put on them, then the perm ward, think of it that the ward is being applied to the "physical" aspect of the spell- the recipient.

Can get complicated, but, fairly straightforward.

Although, at one point when involved in an EXTREMELY high level PF game, we took a minion, cast all sorts of spells on him (nightvision, strength, fleet feet, armor of ithan, and oodles of others), then sewed in a perm ward. Worked great until he turned on us...

In same campaign, we also took a mage, and attached a power+perm sequence to him. There were other symbols/wards in the chain, but, in effect, every spell he was casting was at double power..

I love wards...

[Tor]

All foreign matter is expelled by the bio-regen powers.

Not all supernatural beings or creatures of magic have bio-regeneration though. For those that do, not all of them are strong enough to expel foreign materials, like how Brodkil get bionics.

Since when & how can wards be "sewn into" living creatures? I just recently moved and thus my more important books are buried the deepest down, but I don't seem to recall anything of the sort from PFRPG.

I think even the original PRPG had reference to being able to put wards on people, and had nothing forbidding its use with permanence. PF2nd clarified though that sewing was required to hold it on, rather than just gluing on a permanence ward, and added penalties for removal past a certain point.

it's clear that Permance Wards actually bind to the life essence of the person, and thus become part of them. Similar to Bio-Wizardy.

I wouldn't say it does this initially, but after however many months it bonds and explodes if removed, then yeah.

You can only put one permanence ward on a living being. No "Ward-man" OCC, sorry.

You're thinking of protection wards.

NPC of Archie In "Island at the edge of the world" has several permanence wards on him.

Ah, pages 67 to 72 in the first edition, nice. 'A number of them' refers to dragon-bone permanence wards, so we can clearly have more than 1.

am struggling with the permanence wards affecting spell magic concept. Nvm, may house rule it.

It is tricky in some areas. Knowing that instant spells are off-limits still doesn't answer a lot of things. Like for example, whether or not they can be used with summoning spells, and if so, where to put the ward, on the original location of the summoning, or on the summoned creature afterward, etc.

If it's required to be put on the creature then this would mean you can't make a summoning permanent if it's a supernatural/CoM, only summon spells which summon simpler creatures. Same would apply to trying to Ensorcel/Dominate a supernatural permanently.

If I made a 'wall of air' or something though, I couldn't apply a ward to air... so I assume it would be applied to a surface the wall is on top of... and if that surface was a vehicle, would the wall be a mobile shield?

interpreted by our group that while you can have only one permanance ward on a living being, it may make several spells cast ON that being permanent when the ward is activated.

The book seems to pretty clearly imply you need 1 bone ward per magic effect you want to make permanent, and that you can have multiple ones. If it's vague in the main book then Archie makes it clear.

Also it mentions the ward can be damaged via combat, so placing it where it will not be hit alot would be smart.

That's just normal wards. Permanence wards, and any other wards they are part of a phrase of, are all indestructible. All you can do is destroy the surface they're on top of to separate them.

[Library Ogre]

If you want a lot of wards linked to a single permanence ward, you just need a sufficiently complex ward sentence.

[Giant2005]

I'd treat it like Magic Tattoos. It can be sewn on just fine but it just doesn't do anything.
In the case of someone turning into a SN creature later, the ward would stop functioning as if he was a SN creature all along. Or if he was something like a Sea Titan that starts out normal and becomes SN naturally, it wouldn't work even before becoming SN and would be the first indicator that he isn't as normal as he seems (Much like it states happens to Nightbane and Magic Tattoos in Between the Shadows).

[Goliath Strongarm]

The problem with not having a limit on perm wards, or spells made permanent, etc...


Decipher Magic, See Aura, See the Invisible, Sense Evil, Sense Magic, Ventriloquism, Chameleon, Climb, Detect Concealment, Armor of Ithan, Breathe Without Air, Fingers of the Wind, Impervious to Fire, Impervious to Poison, Negate Poison/Toxin, Resist Fire, See Wards, Sense Traps, Telekinesis, Charismatic Aura, Energy Field, Energy Disruption, Escape, Eyes of Thoth, Heal Wounds, Control of the Beasts, Cure Illness, Detect Poison, Impervious to Energy, Swim as a Fish: Superior, Tongues, Fly as the Eagle, Heal Self, Invulnerability: Limited, Second Sight, X-Ray Vision, Commune with Spirits, Eyes of the Wolf, Oracle, Sense Dimensional Anomaly....

I could keep going, but I think you get the point. And that's just using the PF book, not the Rifts BoM. And plenty of others could be used as well. If you don't limit it, you get the MunchkinMan OCC

[Tor]

If you want a lot of wards linked to a single permanence ward, you just need a sufficiently complex ward sentence.

That could be a major reason why only 1 protection ward can ever be active on a living being simultaneously, to prevent that kind of stacking.

In terms of spell effects though, I'm pretty sure you need 1 perm ward per effect.