Coalition battle tactics

[Elthbert]

cs tactics should reflect their opponant.

For example one of the things i have noticed for years is that in sci fi troops tend to move in loose squads like they do for fighting modern war even when they are fighting swarming creatures. However, when fighting creatures like that a firing line would be much more effective perhaps even a multilayered line like the 18th century soldier. I would certianly have the CS do this when fighting unintelligent swarming creatures.

[runebeo]

Our gm usually has CS flying patrols encounter our group, she usually throws 2 Super Samas, 3 Warbirds, 4 Wind Jammers at us with additional support of 2 to 6 attack copters some 5 to 10 minutes away. With an all air group patrol the CS can decimate enemies like Brodkill tribes with little resistance. Using blitzkrieg assaults, using missiles and air power, concentrating overwhelming force and rapid speed to break through enemy lines, and once the latter is broken, proceeding without regard to its flank. Through constant motion, the blitzkrieg attempts to keep its enemy off-balance, making it difficult to respond effectively at any given point before the front has already moved on. With the CS newer sky cycles using railguns may making resupplying ammo harder compared to the endless payload of energy weapons but with so many mages knowing the impervious to energy spell or using TW items, bullets are a solid way to go to ensure damage even at an advanced cost. Another tactic our gm is a fan of is if a cs vehicle is highly damaged to have the pilot to attempt Kamikaze ramming attacks with the pilot usually ditching at the last moment. One other ploy our gm uses is for a Super Samas or other vehicle to release smoke from a thruster and do some minor damage to his P.A. and pretend to grounded & injured, even crawling to draw us in then jet off leaving a fusion block behind and the squadron mops up. The copters usually drop in a half dozen to a dozen Skellbots to hold the area and with the bots in the mix the pilots rarely care if they hit bots with friendly fire. Doing up the Bots the camouflaged painted and attaching shrubbery can also give them a minor prowl skill great for ambushes and their fully submersible with great depth tolerance, so many great used like chemical warfare, smoke screen, tear gas, flashbangs and once again rigging up a fusion block can give a skellbot a powerful final attack.

[azazel1024]

I model the CS heavily on the Germans of WWII. Strong moral, good unit tactics, excellent technology, very good training, heavy propaganda, indoctrination, heavy control over strategy from the very top and meddling with commands, plans, etc from Prosek.
-Matt

[Rallan]

I played Halo ODST recently, and there was a cut-scene in that game which, I felt, described the tenacity and espirit of the CS soldier perfectly:

The ODST team is standing on a rooftop, when a large alien (roughly four times the size of a man) lands and buries an axe into one of the men. Immediately, viciously and without hesitation, one of the men pulls a knife and leaps onto the back of the alien, burying the blade in its neck. The other uninjured squadmates follow suit instantly, wrapping themselves around the creature's arms, legs and body. They pin the monster to the ground and finish it off.

The CS soldier is vicious and hard, not because he enjoys it but because he needs to be that way. He is the sheepdog, the warrior watching over and protecting his loved ones, his city and even his very planet. He is kind, loyal and protective of his own, and is willing to move towards the sound of the gunfire as everyone he fights to protect moves away from it.....

I hate thinking of the CS as disposable, dime-a-dozen "foot clan" cannon fodder. These troops are among the most sophisticated and advanced warriors the earth has ever seen, and their training should reflect that. I am trying to develop, using things I've seen on TV, read in books, games, movies, etc. --along with things I have learned throughout my own training -- a standard for CS small-unit tactics in combat against both technology and the supernatural/magic.

I was hoping to get input from others who are "veterans" of years of combat either with or against the Coalition military might. Here are a few things I have used in my games, both as player and GM which have helped my CS troops survive:

The problem is that CS soldiers are disposable, dime-a-dozen mooks. They're conscripted en masse and sent to die for the Emperor because illiterate cannon fodder is cheap. That's not to say that there aren't some eminently badass soldiers out there of course. There's going to be elite units that got some seriously badass training, and hardened veterans who decided to stay on after the terms of their conscription have expired, but by and large its a conscript army where superior firepower and overwhelming numbers are used to make up for any shortcomings in individual competence.

[rat_bastard]

A bunch of guys who look like skeletons get in a van that looks like a skull and shoot anything that does not look like them or can read, wash, rinse, repeat.

[Jorel]

A bunch of guys who look like skeletons get in a van that looks like a skull and shoot anything that does not look like them or can read, wash, rinse, repeat.

If you insert "up with", then it would sound like you are referring to Dead Heads not Dead Boys.
As in...
A bunch of guys who look like skeletons get in a van that looks like a skull and shoot up with anything that does not look like them or can read, wash, rinse, repeat.

[Lenwen]

I personally play the CS as I've seen them played in all the military engagments threw out the years..

Just keep throwing numbers at the enemies and eventually they will win.. I've yet to see in canon where the cs took out a larger force threw superior military tactics. That's to include smaller scale military skirmishes..

[Dustin Fireblade]

I personally play the CS as I've seen them played in all the military engagments threw out the years..

Just keep throwing numbers at the enemies and eventually they will win.. I've yet to see in canon where the cs took out a larger force threw superior military tactics. That's to include smaller scale military skirmishes..

Lieutenant Jericho Holmes - as described in his bio

Colonel Buck Murphy led his SAMAS company against a Xiticix swarm that rifted in at Old Chicago. Outnumbered 50 to 1 he still won.

[Lenwen]

I personally play the CS as I've seen them played in all the military engagments threw out the years..

Just keep throwing numbers at the enemies and eventually they will win.. I've yet to see in canon where the cs took out a larger force threw superior military tactics. That's to include smaller scale military skirmishes..

Lieutenant Jericho Holmes - as described in his bio

Colonel Buck Murphy led his SAMAS company against a Xiticix swarm that rifted in at Old Chicago. Outnumbered 50 to 1 he still won.

Considering the Coalitions tendency of having "Pyyric" victories ..

I'd still consider their victories .. as losses ..

[Lenwen]

"Superior military tactics" doesn't necessarily mean having some fancy maneuvering tricks nobody has seen before; It means having a firm grasp on the fundamentals of warfare, plus well-disciplined, professional and thoroughly trained troops.

Training is everything. In the real world, training modern armies reduces the non-firing rate among line troops, it "inoculates" them against combat stressors, it allows them to pull their heart rate into "condition yellow" and take the slow shot, or to apply unarmed combat techniques from muscle memory when they are scared out of their wits.

What does that mean in game terms? For me, a better trained (elite) unit will:

- Have better teamwork between squadmates (they will have rehearsed it)
- Be more proficient upon contact with the enemy (read: small bonus to strike, parry and dodge, and on aimed shots)
- Will be inoculated against stress (bonus to save vs. horror factor)
- Enjoy better leadership (small bonus to initiative)

Now, if the unit doesn't make the time to train, they lose the bonus. Likewise, failing to rehearse before a raid will lose the bonus.

I agree with this whole post save one position ..

- Will be inoculated against stress (bonus to save vs. horror factor)

You mean bonus to save vs Shell shock, not Horror Factor .. right ?

[Wooly]

Lucky, not to get off subject but is the Sliver Bullet game store still open on gate 2 street? I use to ride my bike there to go pick up Rifts books.

[keir451]

My GM is an ex-Army 19 kilo who has me doing that stuff all the time. I once had an adventure w/ my rogue Dog Pack turned Merc group. They were hired to defend a town during a Ley Line storm that opened a Rift and rifted in a Wolfen Empire (Palladium RPG) town. My chara. A rogue CS Dog Pack Wolfen had to try to coordinate his team while dealing with static interference from the LLS. Each group went in squad formation and secured the town section by section, they covered each other's backs (and fronts) if one went down the next one in line stepped up to cover him while the others flanked the monster ( a Neuron Beast) and brought it down, then (due to comms issues again) they sent the wounde member back w/one other on a rocket cycle.
It does seem to me that alot of people don't want the CS to actually act as well trained military, but instead as incompetent, xenophobic, morons who don't know jack.

[Gamer]

It does seem to me that alot of people don't want the CS to actually act as well trained military, but instead as incompetent, xenophobic, morons who don't know jack.

I've noticed that when reading through some of the older threads.
That somehow them being "the bad guys" instantly translates them into total incompetence and their special forces is made of inbred descendants of Jerry's kids.
It gets worse when it's the CS versus magic users as if the CS has never ever faced them ever before.
Whats funny is if you try to rationalize it to others that the CS is not full of dullards or god forbid actually play a group of "good" CS troops you are instantly labeled some kind of CS lover as if it's real life and not an rpg.

[Aaryq]

I know that when I game with my guys from back home, they hate it when I throw some CS at them. They're not running against storm troopers...no they're going up against a highly trained professional army that does not F around. Stand and fight? Okay, they'll call for air support and/or reinforcements. Run away? They'll pursue.

[Gamer]

I know that when I game with my guys from back home, they hate it when I throw some CS at them. They're not running against storm troopers...no they're going up against a highly trained professional army that does not F around. Stand and fight? Okay, they'll call for air support and/or reinforcements. Run away? They'll pursue.

As it should be, they may be what everyone calls "the bad guys" but they are also not the F troop.

[keir451]

I personally play the CS as I've seen them played in all the military engagments threw out the years..

Just keep throwing numbers at the enemies and eventually they will win.. I've yet to see in canon where the cs took out a larger force threw superior military tactics. That's to include smaller scale military skirmishes..

The problem here is most people (KS included) have no real knowledge of military tactics, so when those of us who DO know something about how the military operates look at it we look at it in a different light. As I stated my GM is ex-Army, to him the Tolkeen War shouldn't have taken 4 yrs, it would have taken 1 yr at most. Technically speaking "Superior Tactics" is exactly what Gen. Holmes used, by skirting through territory Tolkeen "thought" was secure he was able to hit them when they were least expecting it.

[keir451]

I personally play the CS as I've seen them played in all the military engagments threw out the years..

Just keep throwing numbers at the enemies and eventually they will win.. I've yet to see in canon where the cs took out a larger force threw superior military tactics. That's to include smaller scale military skirmishes..

Lieutenant Jericho Holmes - as described in his bio

Colonel Buck Murphy led his SAMAS company against a Xiticix swarm that rifted in at Old Chicago. Outnumbered 50 to 1 he still won.

Considering the Coalitions tendency of having "Pyyric" victories ..

I'd still consider their victories .. as losses ..

How are their victories "pyrric"? The CS fought Tolkeen and lost only about 400,000 troops-most of which were skelebots and some Dog Boys, and still came out w/ an army of of well over 1million soldiers while Tolkeen is a smoking ruin.

[Mack]

I personally play the CS as I've seen them played in all the military engagments threw out the years..

Just keep throwing numbers at the enemies and eventually they will win.. I've yet to see in canon where the cs took out a larger force threw superior military tactics. That's to include smaller scale military skirmishes..

Lieutenant Jericho Holmes - as described in his bio

Colonel Buck Murphy led his SAMAS company against a Xiticix swarm that rifted in at Old Chicago. Outnumbered 50 to 1 he still won.

Considering the Coalitions tendency of having "Pyyric" victories ..

I'd still consider their victories .. as losses ..

How are their victories "pyrric"? The CS fought Tolkeen and lost only about 400,000 troops-most of which were skelebots and some Dog Boys, and still came out w/ an army of of well over 1million soldiers while Tolkeen is a smoking ruin.

Your numbers a bit off. The CS lost 405,000 troops with 1.4 million wounded, not counting Dog Boys or mercs. Including those they suffered 600,000 deaths. Additioanlly, nearly 1 million Skelebots were destroyed. (Aftermath, p138)

[keir451]

I personally play the CS as I've seen them played in all the military engagments threw out the years..

Just keep throwing numbers at the enemies and eventually they will win.. I've yet to see in canon where the cs took out a larger force threw superior military tactics. That's to include smaller scale military skirmishes..

Lieutenant Jericho Holmes - as described in his bio

Colonel Buck Murphy led his SAMAS company against a Xiticix swarm that rifted in at Old Chicago. Outnumbered 50 to 1 he still won.

Considering the Coalitions tendency of having "Pyyric" victories ..

I'd still consider their victories .. as losses ..

How are their victories "pyrric"? The CS fought Tolkeen and lost only about 400,000 troops-most of which were skelebots and some Dog Boys, and still came out w/ an army of of well over 1million soldiers while Tolkeen is a smoking ruin.

Your numbers a bit off. The CS lost 405,000 troops with 1.4 million wounded, not counting Dog Boys or mercs. Including those they suffered 600,000 deaths. Additioanlly, nearly 1 million Skelebots were destroyed. (Aftermath, p138)

I'll double check my numbers, but thank you for pointing out the mistake. Even having 1.4 mil. wounded and 600,000 dead ISN'T a pyrric victory. All those wounded can probably be put back into Military service w/in a relative few months bringing the CS military up to over 2 million soldiers.

[Lenwen]

Even having 1.4 mil. wounded and 600,000 dead ISN'T a pyrric victory

2,000,000 dead or wounded to a city that had less then half that in total population (peace time) that's not their military, but ever single being militarily capable or not.

For absolutly no gain .. at all..

That's a pyrric victory if you ask me..

[keir451]

Even having 1.4 mil. wounded and 600,000 dead ISN'T a pyrric victory

2,000,000 dead or wounded to a city that had less then half that in total population (peace time) that's not their military, but ever single being militarily capable or not.

For absolutly no gain .. at all..

That's a pyrric victory if you ask me..

Nah, a Pyrric victory would be if the CS had lost 90% of their troops for absolutely no gain. In this case the CS lost only about 20% of their in theatre troops for some serious gain; 1) They eliminated a perceived threat on their border, 2) they GAINED nearly an entire states worth of territory and resources that they can use to further fuel their expansion, empire and military. So I just named three of the most basic reasons ANY culture goes to war over; differences in culture, territory and resources. The last two (by ANY standard) constitute gain in ANY civilization.

[Gamer]

Yep that would be a non Pyrrhic victory.
They also have lessons learned in warfare against such a city state and should expect changes in the CS military to reflect it.
Unit tactics are improved, hardware, overall skelebot improvements, most likely improved dogboys, better rapid deployment, general anti-magic tactics, the typical changes in the military that happen after such conflicts.
The magic shield defense is not a suprise to them anymore and they will now be expecting such cities to have them.

Tolkeens loss is a wealth of information for the CS military, it is not a pyrrhic victory by anymeans.

[Lenwen]

[color=#000000][/color]

Even having 1.4 mil. wounded and 600,000 dead ISN'T a pyrric victory

2,000,000 dead or wounded to a city that had less then half that in total population (peace time) that's not their military, but ever single being militarily capable or not.

For absolutly no gain .. at all..

That's a pyrric victory if you ask me..

Nah, a Pyrric victory would be if the CS had lost 90% of their troops for absolutely no gain. In this case the CS lost only about 20% of their in theatre troops for some serious gain; 1) They eliminated a perceived threat on their border, 2) they GAINED nearly an entire states worth of territory and resources that they can use to further fuel their expansion, empire and military. So I just named three of the most basic reasons ANY culture goes to war over; differences in culture, territory and resources. The last two (by ANY standard) constitute gain in ANY civilization.

I'm convinced.. you do not understand what a pyrric victory is.

the CS had 2,000,000 killed or wounded ... And ..

1) they gained no resources .. (name me some they have ? )

2)- Percived threat. Very understandable great move..

3)-Territory.. theey are having an incredibly hard time even holding.. let alone defending.. Atlantean forces are doing as they please . . . As are the tolkeen resistance fighters.

[Lenwen]

Technically speaking "Superior Tactics" is exactly what Gen. Holmes used, by skirting through territory Tolkeen "thought" was secure he was able to hit them when they were least expecting it.

Negative.

Gen Holmes did not use superior tactics to survive "magically" for all the months he did without being replenished by supply drops..

Gen Holmes did not use superior tactics.. after the writer basically retconned the entire Xitixic Species to allow such movement threw the HEART of the Xit territory ..

Gen Holmes did not use superior tactics ..

Gen Holmes was handwaviumed a free card to do with as per KS's wants..

Gen Holmes entire force should have been destroyed by starvation prior to their re-emergence..

Gen Holmes entire force should have been destroyed by the Xitixic being in the heartlands, after whatb the very Xitixic book itself stated about intruders ..

But that's not what happened .. as I've stated, Gen Holmes was givin a free hand with which to do as he pleased even unto staving off death itself due to no food or water.. for the "superior tactic's" side of things..

I am sorry but. I have no choice but to disagree with you on this.

[keir451]

Technically speaking "Superior Tactics" is exactly what Gen. Holmes used, by skirting through territory Tolkeen "thought" was secure he was able to hit them when they were least expecting it.

Negative.

Gen Holmes did not use superior tactics to survive "magically" for all the months he did without being replenished by supply drops..

Gen Holmes did not use superior tactics.. after the writer basically retconned the entire Xitixic Species to allow such movement threw the HEART of the Xit territory ..

Gen Holmes did not use superior tactics ..

Gen Holmes was handwaviumed a free card to do with as per KS's wants..

Gen Holmes entire force should have been destroyed by starvation prior to their re-emergence..

Gen Holmes entire force should have been destroyed by the Xitixic being in the heartlands, after whatb the very Xitixic book itself stated about intruders ..

But that's not what happened .. as I've stated, Gen Holmes was givin a free hand with which to do as he pleased even unto staving off death itself due to no food or water.. for the "superior tactic's" side of things..

I am sorry but. I have no choice but to disagree with you on this.

You assume that Gen. Holmes or one of his staff wouldn't have told the troops to pack some of their supplies (food and weapons mainly)with them. Water could be contained within the suit itself and recycled through a still suit system(ala Nexus Nine). The CS (no matter what handwavium KS may pull) is STILL a highly trained and proficient force.
As for surviving the hivelands, my guess would be that Holmes broke his forces down into smaller groups to better avoid being spotted and avoided the actual Hive area itself. The fact that he still suffered fairly heavy losses means that his soldiers STILL encountered Xiticix (or other creatures) and may have had no choice to but to fight as running away might have led them back to the main force.
Gen. Holmes' troops could easily have kept in contact w/each other through their radios and met up at a preplanned location (not every CS soldier is lilliterate or unable to read a map or navigate the wilderness).

[Gamer]

Technically speaking "Superior Tactics" is exactly what Gen. Holmes used, by skirting through territory Tolkeen "thought" was secure he was able to hit them when they were least expecting it.

Negative.

Gen Holmes did not use superior tactics to survive "magically" for all the months he did without being replenished by supply drops..

Gen Holmes did not use superior tactics.. after the writer basically retconned the entire Xitixic Species to allow such movement threw the HEART of the Xit territory ..

Gen Holmes did not use superior tactics ..

Gen Holmes was handwaviumed a free card to do with as per KS's wants..

Gen Holmes entire force should have been destroyed by starvation prior to their re-emergence..

Gen Holmes entire force should have been destroyed by the Xitixic being in the heartlands, after whatb the very Xitixic book itself stated about intruders ..

But that's not what happened .. as I've stated, Gen Holmes was givin a free hand with which to do as he pleased even unto staving off death itself due to no food or water.. for the "superior tactic's" side of things..

I am sorry but. I have no choice but to disagree with you on this.

You assume that Gen. Holmes or one of his staff wouldn't have told the troops to pack some of their supplies (food and weapons mainly)with them. Water could be contained within the suit itself and recycled through a still suit system(ala Nexus Nine). The CS (no matter what handwavium KS may pull) is STILL a highly trained and proficient force.
As for surviving the hivelands, my guess would be that Holmes broke his forces down into smaller groups to better avoid being spotted and avoided the actual Hive area itself. The fact that he still suffered fairly heavy losses means that his soldiers STILL encountered Xiticix (or other creatures) and may have had no choice to but to fight as running away might have led them back to the main force.
Gen. Holmes' troops could easily have kept in contact w/each other through their radios and met up at a preplanned location (not every CS soldier is lilliterate or unable to read a map or navigate the wilderness).

Whats funny is that the use of "flanking the enemy" is the superior tactic, hitting them where they are weakest or just aren't is the superior tactic.
The fact that logistics is too boring for Palladium to bother with -has no WOW factor to it- has nothing to do with defining the superior tactics used. IF Lenwen was in the military as claimed he should clearly know the difference between what was done and how the authors had it accomplished.
But this is why i have him on ignore. - I only wish the quotes weren't seen as well

Also my gm WAS an United States Army Abrams driver

which happens to be a 19K (small world eh Keir?)

[keir451]

Technically speaking "Superior Tactics" is exactly what Gen. Holmes used, by skirting through territory Tolkeen "thought" was secure he was able to hit them when they were least expecting it.

Negative.

Gen Holmes did not use superior tactics to survive "magically" for all the months he did without being replenished by supply drops..

Gen Holmes did not use superior tactics.. after the writer basically retconned the entire Xitixic Species to allow such movement threw the HEART of the Xit territory ..

Gen Holmes did not use superior tactics ..

Gen Holmes was handwaviumed a free card to do with as per KS's wants..

Gen Holmes entire force should have been destroyed by starvation prior to their re-emergence..

Gen Holmes entire force should have been destroyed by the Xitixic being in the heartlands, after whatb the very Xitixic book itself stated about intruders ..

But that's not what happened .. as I've stated, Gen Holmes was givin a free hand with which to do as he pleased even unto staving off death itself due to no food or water.. for the "superior tactic's" side of things..

I am sorry but. I have no choice but to disagree with you on this.

You assume that Gen. Holmes or one of his staff wouldn't have told the troops to pack some of their supplies (food and weapons mainly)with them. Water could be contained within the suit itself and recycled through a still suit system(ala Nexus Nine). The CS (no matter what handwavium KS may pull) is STILL a highly trained and proficient force.
As for surviving the hivelands, my guess would be that Holmes broke his forces down into smaller groups to better avoid being spotted and avoided the actual Hive area itself. The fact that he still suffered fairly heavy losses means that his soldiers STILL encountered Xiticix (or other creatures) and may have had no choice to but to fight as running away might have led them back to the main force.
Gen. Holmes' troops could easily have kept in contact w/each other through their radios and met up at a preplanned location (not every CS soldier is lilliterate or unable to read a map or navigate the wilderness).

Whats funny is that the use of "flanking the enemy" is the superior tactic, hitting them where they are weakest or just aren't is the superior tactic.
The fact that logistics is too boring for Palladium to bother with -has no WOW factor to it- has nothing to do with defining the superior tactics used. IF Lenwen was in the military as claimed he should clearly know the difference between what was done and how the authors had it accomplished.
But this is why i have him on ignore. - I only wish the quotes weren't seen as well

Also my gm WAS an United States Army Abrams driver

which happens to be a 19K (small world eh Keir?)

Sorta as he's MY GM too!!

[Lenwen]

IF Lenwen was in the military as claimed he should clearly know the difference between what was done and how the authors had it accomplished.
But this is why i have him on ignore. - I only wish the quotes weren't seen as well

I must be doing something right, This is the second or third time you have mentioned me specifically (which makes me curoius why the mods allow this as there is an entire thread started about "talk about the post not posters".) Just to say how how much you do not care for or what have you about me.

I shall keep up the good work since I know doing so takes up time of the other posters just to state how badly they do not like me bahahaha

[Jack Daniels]

You assume that Gen. Holmes or one of his staff wouldn't have told the troops to pack some of their supplies (food and weapons mainly)with them. Water could be contained within the suit itself and recycled through a still suit system(ala Nexus Nine). The CS (no matter what handwavium KS may pull) is STILL a highly trained and proficient force.

It's been a while since I read the books, but as I recall it was a surprise attack that completely caught the CS off guard, including Gen Holmes. The soldiers had literally minutes of warning before they were being overrun in their bases. In those minutes they had to wake up and get in their gear, not knowing what exactly was coming at them, and be ready to fight. I'm not military, but under those conditions I would expect that several months worth of rations would not be one of the things that the troops would have been grabbing.

By what I recall from the books the officers in charge didn't understand the scale of the attack until their troops were already engaged. Troops engaged are not going to be looking to gather several months worth of rations when the order to fall back comes through unless specifically ordered to do so. Certainly some far sighted officers may have organized units to hold off the attackers in their area while others gathered some supplies, and I'll give Holmes the credit for having that kind of foresight, but in the short period of time between first alarm and retreat to avoid being routed that is discussed in the books, there is just not enough time to physically pack the necessary amount of food for what followed.

As for surviving the hivelands, my guess would be that Holmes broke his forces down into smaller groups to better avoid being spotted and avoided the actual Hive area itself. The fact that he still suffered fairly heavy losses means that his soldiers STILL encountered Xiticix (or other creatures) and may have had no choice to but to fight as running away might have led them back to the main force.

He didn't do that, again from what I remember. He had as many troops as could fit get inside the vehicles, lined them up bumper to bumper and had the PA troopers sit on them and then drove in a big long line at 10-15 mph through the middle of the hivelands.
This minimized the perceived number of intruders, but per the Xit book only groups of adventuring party size or smaller can move around, any larger group is attacked no exception.
The slow speed is key for the adventuring party sized groups when they move, but since the army fell into the no exceptions size the speed should not have made any substantial difference.
The troops on the outside of the vehicles were under orders to not fire weapons, just to push with poles and stuff against nosy Xits, but the trip took a day or two. I'm sure they are well trained and obedient soldiers, but after two days of constant swarming by Xits and watching friends get carried off from time to time, no sleep or even rest, somebody's going to shoot their gun or launch their missile when the next Xit grabs a hold of the arm of his PA suit and starts to carry him away. No group of several hundred thousand troops is stone cold enough to be perfect on this. Even if the Xits have up until now for whatever reason ignored that no-exception rule regarding the size of an intruding group, once that Xit gets killed by the exhausted trooper trying to save his own life the swarm is on.

Gen. Holmes' troops could easily have kept in contact w/each other through their radios and met up at a preplanned location (not every CS soldier is lilliterate or unable to read a map or navigate the wilderness).

I haven't seen anyone debating this part, the problem comes with the troops surviving long enough to be able to make the rendezvous. According to the Xit book, which is not in-world knowledge like how some of the Tarn diary stuff could be interpreted, but player and GM background setting info, this simply could not have happened.

The other major issue is after we've assumed that they survived the journey that the setting info says they could not possible have survived, they lived mostly off of the land for months in a complete wilderness. That is flat impossible.

It's not a superior tactic what Holmes did. It is an impossibility.

[Lenwen]

Gen. Holmes' troops could easily have kept in contact w/each other through their radios and met up at a preplanned location (not every CS soldier is lilliterate or unable to read a map or navigate the wilderness).

I haven't seen anyone debating this part

Then I guess I will remind everyone on the thread Gen Holmes himself ordered 100% complete radio blackout.

Sorry keir, not trying to sound any way but Gen Holmes ordered radio silence for everyone which is why everyone else thought they were dead. Which means they could not keep in contact through radio, and did not have enough time to coordinate a meeting place for his forces.

[glitterboy2098]

personally, the CS military strikes me as a very soviet style force. quantity over quality in most things (both when they can get it), with strategy leaning towards waves of forces to batter down the enemy. each wave sent off based on a minutely detailed timeline, with little room for personal initiative on the part of lower ranking officers to factor into battle plans.
thats basically how the CS fought the SoT, and their military supports that. their soldiers are considered expendible, as are their vehicles to an extent. they're not particularly flexible or well trained, relying more on brute force to overcome opponents.

[keir451]

@Jack Daniels & Lenwen; No worries guys, I didn't have the books in front of me so I wasn't able to reference what I couldn't remember. Thanks for correcting me.
Each soldier (IMO) would already be carrying a ready supply of CS equivalent MRE's (our military does) and as the books say all body armor and power armor are enviromentally sealed which means they would have to have water/waste recycling systems (some may even have limited food/paste dispensers like the GB does).
Gen. Holmes' reaction to the assault would be that of any well trained soldier, assess and react on the fly-as trained. When you spent day in day out being drilled in certain things like maintaining your gear and supplies you wind up reacting instantaneously BECAUSE it's been drilled into you. THAT's the "Highly trained and proficient" part of the CS military. He would have ordered his guys to get as much supplies as they could and load them into the vehicles along with the soldiers own supplies.
By having said soldiers and gear inside (or strapped to the outside) of the vehicles helps protect it somewhat (the Xiticix don't use CS gear or supplies) and protects the majority of the troops by putting the heavy armor on the outside to interdict the bugs w/ and if they are attacked (which did happen) they eliminate the threat ASAP. Communications could also be relayed through visual Morse code or tight band laser comms when needed eliminating any chance of radio leakage.
The Xiticix would generally leave the slow moving vehicles alone and so long as they didn't attack the Hive itself only the patroling/raiding swarms would fight and do damage or be destroyed.
The CS has a wealth of historical material regarding Military actions to draw upon in the Chi-town library, the kinda books you can find in bookstores, schools and college campuses, that and the Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard and Marines ALL maintain base around the Great Lakes region (esp. Navy and Coast Guard).
@GB2098; Yet if the CS are the descendants of NEMA and the US forces wouldn't they instead fall back on the traditions of their forefathers instead?

[glitterboy2098]

@GB2098; Yet if the CS are the descendants of NEMA and the US forces wouldn't they instead fall back on the traditions of their forefathers instead?

first, because the political and economic enviroments are totally dissimilar. the CS has a large uneducated working class (like the soviets) with a small quasi-aristocratic educated ruling class (like the soviets). America does not. even in Chaos Earth, there is no indications of that. so using tactics of flexibility and initiative just isn't feasible for the CS.

second, they basically are using the tactics america was using at the time of the books writing. "shock and awe" is just a bit of "red white and blue" painted on a very soviet style strategy. pound them flat with overwhelming airpower, then grind them flat under waves of tanks and troops. the difference was the soviets were planning for fighting a superpower with equal military capabilities, just focused differently, while America was using their superior hardware to pummel nation with inferior military abilities

tolkeen fought back with a very NATO style strategy. flexibility, spoiling attcks, and avoiding direct combat. highly trained forces and recruiting less well trained and ultimately disposable troops. developing the most advanced hardware they could make to serve as a force multiplier.
the problem being that magic based weapons are just too hard to make at the level needed, so they couldn't put out the quantity needed to blunt the CS attacks. and in the end, the death blow was a CS general pulling a very un-CS manuvuer. somthing tolkien couldn't have expected because not only did it go against normal CS battle strategy, but it it shouldn't have worked as well as it did. a bit of blind luck on the part of holmes after his un-CS like bit of personal initiative meant a threat coming out of left feild that caught tolkeen offbalance.

[Jack Daniels]

Each soldier (IMO) would already be carrying a ready supply of CS equivalent MRE's (our military does) and as the books say all body armor and power armor are enviromentally sealed which means they would have to have water/waste recycling systems (some may even have limited food/paste dispensers like the GB does).

I agree that they would have some rations in their ready kit, but only a couple of days worth, maybe a week. Not months.

Gen. Holmes' reaction to the assault would be that of any well trained soldier, assess and react on the fly-as trained. When you spent day in day out being drilled in certain things like maintaining your gear and supplies you wind up reacting instantaneously BECAUSE it's been drilled into you. THAT's the "Highly trained and proficient" part of the CS military. He would have ordered his guys to get as much supplies as they could and load them into the vehicles along with the soldiers own supplies.

And I already stated that Holmes reasonably would have been on it enough to have issued those orders. But even if he did, there wasn't enough time to execute the orders before the troops were forced to retreat from their bases.

putting the heavy armor on the outside to interdict the bugs w/ and if they are attacked (which did happen) they eliminate the threat ASAP.

If by "eliminating the threat ASAP" you mean killing the Xit, that would trigger a swarm attack, even if somehow the swarm had for whatever reason up until that point held off attacking the tens of thousands of vehicles that made up what had to be at least a dozen mile long column.

The Xiticix would generally leave the slow moving vehicles alone and so long as they didn't attack the Hive itself only the patroling/raiding swarms would fight and do damage or be destroyed.

Again, they only leave alone small groups that are traveling slowly. This was a very large group. By the Xit sourcebook it doesn't matter what speed they move, if that many vehicles enter a hive's territory they will be swarmed.

[Lenwen]

Each soldier (IMO) would already be carrying a ready supply of CS equivalent MRE's (our military does) and as the books say all body armor and power armor are enviromentally sealed which means they would have to have water/waste recycling systems (some may even have limited food/paste dispensers like the GB does).

I agree that they would have some rations in their ready kit, but only a couple of days worth, maybe a week. Not months.

Gen. Holmes' reaction to the assault would be that of any well trained soldier, assess and react on the fly-as trained. When you spent day in day out being drilled in certain things like maintaining your gear and supplies you wind up reacting instantaneously BECAUSE it's been drilled into you. THAT's the "Highly trained and proficient" part of the CS military. He would have ordered his guys to get as much supplies as they could and load them into the vehicles along with the soldiers own supplies.

And I already stated that Holmes reasonably would have been on it enough to have issued those orders. But even if he did, there wasn't enough time to execute the orders before the troops were forced to retreat from their bases.

putting the heavy armor on the outside to interdict the bugs w/ and if they are attacked (which did happen) they eliminate the threat ASAP.

If by "eliminating the threat ASAP" you mean killing the Xit, that would trigger a swarm attack, even if somehow the swarm had for whatever reason up until that point held off attacking the tens of thousands of vehicles that made up what had to be at least a dozen mile long column.

The Xiticix would generally leave the slow moving vehicles alone and so long as they didn't attack the Hive itself only the patroling/raiding swarms would fight and do damage or be destroyed.

Again, they only leave alone small groups that are traveling slowly. This was a very large group. By the Xit sourcebook it doesn't matter what speed they move, if that many vehicles enter a hive's territory they will be swarmed.

100% completely agree with this post.

[Gamer]

The WoW Factor is there when a few men cripple an army, when a few men lead an army into death

Spoken like a true armchair general.
That is not WOW factor that is simply "you got lucky"
wow factor to me is not some silly little tactic used by few to wipe out many.
Been there, done that, partially disabled for doing so and very thankful don't have to do it anymore and wish it wouldn't be needed to be done again but human nature as it is says otherwise.

Wow factor has it's own meaning to Palladium and it's writers and apparently that meaning is oblivious to you.

Spouting tactics done through the history isn't impressing anyone.
Those of us who are unfortunate enough to have had to deal with tactics on the real battlefield know the writers are not versed tacticians and have no combat experience and don't care and not going to decry them for it.
We'll let you armchair generals knock yourselves out doing that.

[Lenwen]

The WoW Factor is there when a few men cripple an army, when a few men lead an army into death

Spoken like a true armchair general.
That is not WOW factor that is simply "you got lucky".

"you got lucky" .. is more believeable then printing out an entire World book about the Xitixic ..

Only to retcon the entire species a couple books later with literally two sentances ..

Mr. Armchair General Gamer "Sir" ..

[glitterboy2098]

nah, CS logistics allowing for the crippling of their army wouldn't be the WOW factor, just a happy side effect.

the WOW factor would be something like them using auto-pilot equipped supply trucks with skelebot based brains, aliens power loader style UAR-1's (as described in SB4) to load and unload, and gliding air drop containers... stuff that Gm's can look at and say "hey, i want my players to encounter this" and players to go "hey, i want to steal one of these"
then you can append the information on how their logisitics work as a background section for using all those neat "logistics section" toys...

[Lenwen]

[MODERATED - Address the topic not the poster. Mack]

[runebeo]

I was thinking about how to improve Skelebots and it quickly came to me that along with our camouflage ideas to add even more tactical advantage have the bots move like apes or dogs to gain a low profile few other upgrades like climbing spikes in the hands and feet could add some spider-like advantages for a minor cost. Theres no reason their programing couldn't be expanded to better use cover tactics, using playing dead tactics could be devastate in the right battle, with the cost of the bots why not give them shields to add cover bonus and extra toughness. Crazy idea but create a Skeleton Medic to do maintenance in the field and savage for parts. I know theses bots are not that well defined and thought of as brainless attack bots but theses guts never get tired, hungry, fully of advanced optics, sensors hearing, don't require flashlights to see, sure sounds like deadly warriors to me. Look at what the Milo program can do today for retail price of 70 bucks and think what will be possible to program a bot to do in a few decades, seems silly for the robot defenders of humanity to have such a simple program, maybe the next line will be more like Archie's spy bots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPIbGnBQcJY

[Gamer]

Yeah Runbeo you have got a point with the skelbots, they did get a raw deal didn't they.
They were never a threat to any player group I ever heard of as written, I had to change them to be more Terminator and less George Lucas battle droid.
The possibilities with the skelebots are endless if you make them something other than a walking sentry gun.

[Jack Daniels]

they only leave alone small groups that are traveling slowly. This was a very large group. By the Xit sourcebook it doesn't matter what speed they move, if that many vehicles enter a hive's territory they will be swarmed.

Only problem with that then your going against all known figures of nature for bugs. First, yes Xiticix are an aggressive race but that does not discount the basic fact off all hive insect behavior and it is as quoted "Xiticix are very much "insects."'. For that they will attack big living things but looking through a bugs eyes to an APC that has an odd shape with everything on it will confuse the drone and he wont attack or he would and find out its too hard for him to keep up and will get more. Once the group has proven to hard for the Xiticix to attack they would leave it alone because it would take too much resources to capture that food/eliminating the threat that only attacked when you have. They might follow it but that depends on what the bug will do. Also looking at the book knowing Holmes would have the knowledge of how to combat them and use it to full extent like the white noise affect but not always but enough to keep the bugs away. So really he could go through mostly unscathed.

I'm not sure I agree with your assessment of real world hive insect behavior regarding intruders, but that doesn't really matter for this discussion.

In the book, from which you just pulled a quote that's on pg 8, it states on pg 10 that "these aliens see any non-Xiticix "group" larger than eight . . . as an intruder to be destroyed." The next paragraph goes into details about how they will respond. "Against small groups of intruders (less than 20), the Xiticix dispatch a squadron. . . This squad will fight to the death and battle until all interlopers are destroyed!" It continues to say that if the intruders flee they will be pursued and that if the attacking squad is killed another squad will immediately renew the attack, "[t]his process is repeated until the intruders are slain."

On pg 11 it address groups larger than 20, which I think we can all agree is the category that would apply to General Holmes' army. They "typically elicit a massive swarm . . . two Xiticix for every one invader; giant robots and vehicles will earn 4-8 Warriors each."

Finally it says "while a lone individual, a pairs [sic] or small group of eight or less" can pass through without being attacked, it is only possible if they are quiet, keep a low profile, and never stop for more than 2-3 minutes. It specifically says that it is not wise to bring a large vehicle or giant robot into Xit territory, which I understand to be an implication that they will provoke an attack, even if part of a small group of eight or less. Even with all this, if a small group remains in Xit territory for more than a day they will be viewed as a danger, and again by implication attacked.

So, according to the Xit sourcebook, they do not act at all according to your interpretation of how real world hive insects act. Also, according to the Xit sourcebook all of General Holmes precautions would not have had any effect whatsoever on his ability to move through the Xit territory with a 200,000 man army.

The fact that General Holmes was able to do what he did is equivalent to having the new updated Vampire sourcebooks declare that vampires are not harmed by running water. It completely contradicts what was established in prior cannon. And in this case the explanation for the contradiction does not actually provide justification for the action that violates the established canon.

[Jack Daniels]

The WoW Factor is there when a few men cripple an army, when a few men lead an army into death

Spoken like a true armchair general.
That is not WOW factor that is simply "you got lucky"
wow factor to me is not some silly little tactic used by few to wipe out many.
Been there, done that, partially disabled for doing so and very thankful don't have to do it anymore and wish it wouldn't be needed to be done again but human nature as it is says otherwise.

Wow factor has it's own meaning to Palladium and it's writers and apparently that meaning is oblivious to you.

Spouting tactics done through the history isn't impressing anyone.
Those of us who are unfortunate enough to have had to deal with tactics on the real battlefield know the writers are not versed tacticians and have no combat experience and don't care and not going to decry them for it.
We'll let you armchair generals knock yourselves out doing that.

Whoa there, dial it back a bit. I'm pretty sure than in an imaginary setting everyone can have their own personal WOW factor. Your WOW might be a flanking maneuver through hostile territory in the face of an attacking enemy, his WOW is apparently surgical strikes on supply dumps and utterly incompetent generals.

Don't think either of you has any right to dog the others opinion on something like this because they are after all opinions and you know how the rest of that saying goes.

[Lenwen]

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Absolutly.. not even trying to make it a fair one huh ?

This site is a riot !!!

Especially for the do as I say, not as "they" do rule I see clearly now..

[Lenwen]

The fact that General Holmes was able to do what he did ... completely contradicts what was established in prior cannon. And in this case the explanation for the contradiction does not actually provide justification for the action that violates the established canon.

This bears repeating.. for those that just do not get it..

Kudoes on the post. Very well said.


The fact that it took a total retcon for Holmes to get off his "superior" military tactic.. only serves to show it was not a superior tactic at all..

Superior tactic's do not make need of a retcon of entire species.. to work..

Its literally THAT simply put..

[keir451]

@Well, everyone; Granted KS DID make serious misstep in "retconning" the Xiticix. That does not negate the fact that the CS military is highly trained and competent. KS' (more than) occasional slips have been argued before (ad nauseum).
The real point isn't what SHOULD have happened to Gen. Holmes, but that by skirting through terrain thought to be impassable he managed to take Tolkeen by surprise. Was part of that due to Tolkeens failure to defend their Northern border? Yes. But that still makes it a "Tactic", called "flanking".

[keir451]

[color=#000000][/color]

Even having 1.4 mil. wounded and 600,000 dead ISN'T a pyrric victory

2,000,000 dead or wounded to a city that had less then half that in total population (peace time) that's not their military, but ever single being militarily capable or not.

For absolutly no gain .. at all..

That's a pyrric victory if you ask me..

Nah, a Pyrric victory would be if the CS had lost 90% of their troops for absolutely no gain. In this case the CS lost only about 20% of their in theatre troops for some serious gain; 1) They eliminated a perceived threat on their border, 2) they GAINED nearly an entire states worth of territory and resources that they can use to further fuel their expansion, empire and military. So I just named three of the most basic reasons ANY culture goes to war over; differences in culture, territory and resources. The last two (by ANY standard) constitute gain in ANY civilization.

I'm convinced.. you do not understand what a pyrric victory is.

the CS had 2,000,000 killed or wounded ... And ..

1) they gained no resources .. (name me some they have ? )

2)- Percived threat. Very understandable great move..

3)-Territory.. theey are having an incredibly hard time even holding.. let alone defending.. Atlantean forces are doing as they please . . . As are the tolkeen resistance fighters.

Look at a map of resources for Wisconsin; You get more farmland, clay (for ceramics used in industry/military) copper and iron metal deposits, silicon (i.e. sand, also used in making microchips and other hightech materials), gypsum deposits, salt deposits, limestone (concrete anyone), better Great Lakes access for better trade and defensibility.
Most of those resistance fighters will be dealt with over time as they are caught by NTSET, ISS or other CS Police forces. The rest wiil either continue until they are also caught /killed or quit and go elsewhere.
I mean this IS North America we're talking about, what resources exist today for US to use are also present there for the CS to use as well.
A Pyrrhic victory for the CS would be if they defeated Tolkeen, only to lose to say Lazlo, or someother group immediately thereafter.
Also among the dead of the Sorcerer's Revenge were Gen. Holmes troops so that reduces the number of dead by about 300-400,000.
Russia suffered as much in casualties during WW 2 and I don't hear anyone claiming that was Pyrrhic victory. 600,000 dead in the defense of Kiev alone.

[Shark_Force]

resources that have already been dug out of the ground will not be available to dig out of the ground again just because of the rifts. so really, it doesn't much matter what there is to dig out of the ground today, it matters how much there will be after 90 more years of continuously increasing demand, and i rather doubt it's going to be anywhere near the amount we have today.

[Lenwen]

resources that have already been dug out of the ground will not be available to dig out of the ground again just because of the rifts. so really, it doesn't much matter what there is to dig out of the ground today, it matters how much there will be after 90 more years of continuously increasing demand, and i rather doubt it's going to be anywhere near the amount we have today.

This is 100% accurate...

To assume that the resorces we have today will still be there nearly 400 years+ in the future makes no sense.. which goes double time for thefact that even now were using better and better tech to drain said resorses faster.. and faster..

[Wooly]

resources that have already been dug out of the ground will not be available to dig out of the ground again just because of the rifts. so really, it doesn't much matter what there is to dig out of the ground today, it matters how much there will be after 90 more years of continuously increasing demand, and i rather doubt it's going to be anywhere near the amount we have today.

This is 100% accurate...

To assume that the resorces we have today will still be there nearly 400 years+ in the future makes no sense.. which goes double time for thefact that even now were using better and better tech to drain said resorses faster.. and faster..

Subterranean rifting put new deposits there.