Coalition battle tactics

[Lenwen]

resources that have already been dug out of the ground will not be available to dig out of the ground again just because of the rifts. so really, it doesn't much matter what there is to dig out of the ground today, it matters how much there will be after 90 more years of continuously increasing demand, and i rather doubt it's going to be anywhere near the amount we have today.

This is 100% accurate...

To assume that the resorces we have today will still be there nearly 400 years+ in the future makes no sense.. which goes double time for thefact that even now were using better and better tech to drain said resorses faster.. and faster..

Subterranean rifting put new deposits there.

Lmao..

[keir451]

resources that have already been dug out of the ground will not be available to dig out of the ground again just because of the rifts. so really, it doesn't much matter what there is to dig out of the ground today, it matters how much there will be after 90 more years of continuously increasing demand, and i rather doubt it's going to be anywhere near the amount we have today.

This is 100% accurate...

To assume that the resorces we have today will still be there nearly 400 years+ in the future makes no sense.. which goes double time for thefact that even now were using better and better tech to drain said resorses faster.. and faster..

So the clay and sand deposits left after the glacial age are already all used up? Where do you think Ishpeming is getting its resources from? What about the return of the forests afte nearly 300 yrs of bein untouched? Where did Tolkeen get their resources from? Where did they get the food to feed their people, the metals for their equipment and buildings?
Currently Michigan and Wisconsin areas host large farms. After nearly 300 yrs. of non use that land is good to go again. That alone makes the territory worthwhile, as the CS continues to grow and expand they will need greater tracts of land with which to feed their populace and military.
To assume that ANY terrain has no value is the height of folly. As much as it was a joke, the concept of new materials being rifted in is actually a plausable scenario as this IS Rifts Earth, who's to say what does and does not exist?
But in the end all this is unrelated to the topic of CS battle tactics, which are as many and as varied as the players themselves.

[runebeo]

All the CS needed to get out of the bug swarm was a single Psi-Ghost to phase and go for backup. Another option was to fortify up in one place and since most of the energy weapons had an endless payload mixed with robotic digging ability they could have easily tunnelled under their position and tunnel a few dozen miles to safety. Teaming both options together could bring outside CS force to assist with bulldozers, construction bots and more Psi-Ghost to bring in much needed supplies. Psi-Ghosts never leave on missions without them. Their was no reason to push all the way through their territory when you can just pull a Shawshank Redemption.

[Lenwen]

So the clay and sand deposits left after the glacial age are already all used up? Where do you think Ishpeming is getting its resources from? What about the return of the forests afte nearly 300 yrs of bein untouched?

I have no clue where Ishpeming is getting its resources from.

Can you show me where "Wood" is being used in the CS military ? Is it being used to construct their weaponry ? Is it being used to create thier armors ? How bout is it being used to create their Vehicles ?

The problem is not that people do not think the CS can find its own resources, but the fact that their seems to be an unlimited supply of them .. on par with if not greater then the resources available to Atlantis itself .. whom has literally WORLDS .. of resources at its beck n call ..

Thats as pointedly direct as I can make it. Not trying to sound offensive here in any way shape or form, but the CS should not have anything near its resources as it does.

Where did Tolkeen get their resources from?

Tolkeen was a magic based sociaty, and by and large they are not limited by the same options that limit the CS as far as resources go. As I will show you after your next quote..

Where did they get the food to feed their people, the metals for their equipment and buildings?

To feed their people, Tolkeen would not need "resources" as per the normal understanding of them. Example...
Sustain = able to feed literally an entire population if needs be .. for days on end .. with the right Mage and or TW .. you could literally feed a population of a million for well .. extended periods of time with little to no problem.

Food is not an issue and as can be seen, Magic can easily solve that very aspect of "resources"

Metals can be aquired simply by the following .. Create Steel,

Matter of fact I believe in the very Tolkeen books themselves it goes into great detail how the City was constructed not by earthly materials but threw magic ..

Again.. negating the use of "resources" as per normal understanding ..

To assume that ANY terrain has no value is the height of folly.

[/quote]
I never assumed that the terrain itself could not be farmed .. I believe the discussion was about the resources inside the earth to be plundered as per your own post.. And farming I believe was not part of it .. You were talking about Ore's an the like. But now that you have seen its more then likely those ore's would be all used by in 400 years time you switch to farming the land debate .. Prolly should try to stay on one debate topic, with out switching after getting proven wrong .. or just cede the point ?

[Mercdog]

Metals can be aquired simply by the following .. Create Steel,

Just a note:
I don't have my BoM with me, but doesn't Create Steel require actually having metal to magically reprocess? I seem to remember reading that.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Metals can be aquired simply by the following .. Create Steel,

Just a note:
I don't have my BoM with me, but doesn't Create Steel require actually having metal to magically reprocess? I seem to remember reading that.

Correct, unless there was a major revision to it. The spell description basically starts out by saying it should be named "Recycle Metal" - it's also a 9th level spell, so it's not like every single mage is walking around with it either.

Plus you still need someone to work it into something other than a sheet/bar/pole.


Personally I've always liked to think that the CS gets a lot of their materials by salvage and recycling.

[Lenwen]

Both Merc and Dustin actually may be right, with out the book at my side currently I can not argue one way or the other.

[Shark_Force]

Both Merc and Dustin actually may be right, with out the book at my side currently I can not argue one way or the other.

they are, create steel requires that you have some steel as a base. that said, it does in fact create more steel then the amount you start with, and since it makes absolutely no sense to me for the spell to detect whether the base material has been shot with a laser or not, i presume you could then use the produced steel as further base material (although i think the spell technically doesn't allow that, all you have to do is smash it to bits with a hammer and you've got more scrap, so it's really not a limitation either way).

also significant is the fact that there *are* spells that can create wood from nothing (also water), and that you can subsequently make the wood MDC (there is also a spell to turn water into wine, which is likely a great moneymaker, but could presumably also be used as a fuel source if you got really desperate, though you'd likely have to process it in some way). so as far as readily available MDC construction materials go, magical nations can potentially have a pretty significant advantage (all you have to do is have the mage sit on a ley line and produce the materials. if you teach them the spell for their own use on the condition that they spend 8 hours a day converting ley line energy into MDC construction materials for some extended period of time, i could definitely see a lot of MDC wood being produced. even more if you made a TW device)

[Zer0 Kay]

I played Halo ODST recently, and there was a cut-scene in that game which, I felt, described the tenacity and espirit of the CS soldier perfectly:

The ODST team is standing on a rooftop, when a large alien (roughly four times the size of a man) lands and buries an axe into one of the men. Immediately, viciously and without hesitation, one of the men pulls a knife and leaps onto the back of the alien, burying the blade in its neck. The other uninjured squadmates follow suit instantly, wrapping themselves around the creature's arms, legs and body. They pin the monster to the ground and finish it off.

The CS soldier is vicious and hard, not because he enjoys it but because he needs to be that way. He is the sheepdog, the warrior watching over and protecting his loved ones, his city and even his very planet. He is kind, loyal and protective of his own, and is willing to move towards the sound of the gunfire as everyone he fights to protect moves away from it.....

I hate thinking of the CS as disposable, dime-a-dozen "foot clan" cannon fodder. These troops are among the most sophisticated and advanced warriors the earth has ever seen, and their training should reflect that. I am trying to develop, using things I've seen on TV, read in books, games, movies, etc. --along with things I have learned throughout my own training -- a standard for CS small-unit tactics in combat against both technology and the supernatural/magic.

I was hoping to get input from others who are "veterans" of years of combat either with or against the Coalition military might. Here are a few things I have used in my games, both as player and GM which have helped my CS troops survive:

Yeah but then we forget that ODST also shows the other side of the CS where NORMALLY the players keep killing the benign data storage aliens. But at least the ODST guys do it out of ignorance and then don't even give them a second chance because if you kill em at range then they go boom far enough to not cause you any harm. The CS on the other hand would kill them even if they knew they were harmless.

[Dustin Fireblade]

I did not get what I was looking for from this thread.

There is a HUGE, monumental difference between "Tactics" and "Strategy."

Perhaps I should have gone to the RECON forum where the rest of the vets hang out.

Sorry about that. I tend not to post a lot of "war stories" since I generally use a number of house rules when it comes to ranged combat.

That said I GM'd a long running CS game where the players were part of a Special Forces team based in Lone Star. To be brief, the players generally were very aggressive when it came to combat, but they always came up with a plan first prior to attacking. They were also pretty good at improvising and altering the plan as needed.

Generally though the team would establish a specific target, or series of targets, moving from one to the next in radio silence (unless something went wrong). If the opponent was particulary large (either in terms of size itself or just numbers), then they used a lot of ambushes. A couple of times they used themselves as bait.

Overall they made liberal use of grenade's, grenade launchers, rail guns and plasma ejectors. The C-5 was the popular sidearm, and they received approval to use a number of Wellington Industries weapons.

[Gamer]

I did not get what I was looking for from this thread.

There is a HUGE, monumental difference between "Tactics" and "Strategy."

Perhaps I should have gone to the RECON forum where the rest of the vets hang out.

That's why I gave up on it, it lasted on topic longer than I thought it would actually.
Try to have a nice conversation on CS tactics and it devolves into the usual CS thread crapping or transforms into Strategy level.

Don't like revised recon, we use Twilight 2013 for our "modern" games, it's much better at it and thier forum members are almost nothing but vets.

CS tactics are as varied as the beings on rifts Earth and have to be, tacitcs used on mundane people don't work well for magic wielders and most supernatural, then you have to consider the ones who are flight capable and if they are magic and not and so on.
One tactic we use is "gainsay prior".
A tactic used against demonstrated communication interception and telepathy.
What is said and "thought" is not what is done but it's opposite is.

[Blue_Lion]

Even having 1.4 mil. wounded and 600,000 dead ISN'T a pyrric victory

2,000,000 dead or wounded to a city that had less then half that in total population (peace time) that's not their military, but ever single being militarily capable or not.

For absolutly no gain .. at all..

That's a pyrric victory if you ask me..

Nah, a Pyrric victory would be if the CS had lost 90% of their troops for absolutely no gain. In this case the CS lost only about 20% of their in theatre troops for some serious gain; 1) They eliminated a perceived threat on their border, 2) they GAINED nearly an entire states worth of territory and resources that they can use to further fuel their expansion, empire and military. So I just named three of the most basic reasons ANY culture goes to war over; differences in culture, territory and resources. The last two (by ANY standard) constitute gain in ANY civilization.

Tolkeen is one of 3 nations in the area able to field forces near what the cs can. Decimated them takes it down to 2 threats left. So athou losses where great for the cs, the tactical advantage is far greater.

[Blue_Lion]

I did not get what I was looking for from this thread.

There is a HUGE, monumental difference between "Tactics" and "Strategy."

Perhaps I should have gone to the RECON forum where the rest of the vets hang out.

Sorry about that. I tend not to post a lot of "war stories" since I generally use a number of house rules when it comes to ranged combat.

That said I GM'd a long running CS game where the players were part of a Special Forces team based in Lone Star. To be brief, the players generally were very aggressive when it came to combat, but they always came up with a plan first prior to attacking. They were also pretty good at improvising and altering the plan as needed.

Generally though the team would establish a specific target, or series of targets, moving from one to the next in radio silence (unless something went wrong). If the opponent was particulary large (either in terms of size itself or just numbers), then they used a lot of ambushes. A couple of times they used themselves as bait.

Overall they made liberal use of grenade's, grenade launchers, rail guns and plasma ejectors. The C-5 was the popular sidearm, and they received approval to use a number of Wellington Industries weapons.

That whould be a good role for the cs sf but not the less well trained cs. By the book cs is fanantics that use tactics taken from world war to favoring blitz stile quick hit with lots of force. Most nations cant field more than a few hundred troops at most so one CS combat brigade can over run most of them. But if the CS Pushes to hard they may draw the other few nations that can field a large force into the fight. With the loss of tolkeen that reduces the number of real threats to the cs. If they attack either of the remaining threats the other will jump in.

[Blue_Lion]

I personally play the CS as I've seen them played in all the military engagments threw out the years..

Just keep throwing numbers at the enemies and eventually they will win.. I've yet to see in canon where the cs took out a larger force threw superior military tactics. That's to include smaller scale military skirmishes..

The problem here is most people (KS included) have no real knowledge of military tactics, so when those of us who DO know something about how the military operates look at it we look at it in a different light. As I stated my GM is ex-Army, to him the Tolkeen War shouldn't have taken 4 yrs, it would have taken 1 yr at most. Technically speaking "Superior Tactics" is exactly what Gen. Holmes used, by skirting through territory Tolkeen "thought" was secure he was able to hit them when they were least expecting it.

I disagree. The presence of magic is a night mare for any army. Telport a bomb to a mess tent and let it go off, invisable troops waiting to ambush. Summoning demons to tie up your forces while they get away. Throw in the Cyber knights who become tech killing melle monsters and small cs patrols have real problems. Mages whould constaly shift behind the cs front line and hit supplies. Summon troops from other demetions Mercs from phase world. The fight was in no way one sided, mages are better trained than most troops not in direct combat but in mental focus and displin no men at arms gets the same training.

Now i am not saying the CS is untrained but they have not had a major battle with a large force in quite some time so there first actions where to swarm with greater numbers witch failed. As a whole this was a type of fight on a scale that the CS was not use to. Throw in multiple units that alone are equal to 1 cs battalion such as the great dragons and it just gets worse. The CS might not be stupid but neither are the people the where up agaist.

[Blue_Lion]

I think what he was looking for was not what people thaght of the cs but tactics that could be used. Blitz is a common one but some to think of are.

River lake ambush. With full envormental armor your troops can stay submeged for what an hour at a time. Most rifts weapons are not good agaist under water opentes. A unit could wait under water for a ground bound foce to cross the river and then rise up from the water shoot at them then duck under the water. Explosives and missles will be the biggest risk here but if the force travels in one vehicle you can trap it at the bridge or crossing point.

Tag and bag whould be another choice. Hit a hostle foce with a light attack let them think they get away. But they where taged with some tracking device or agent. Maybe a remotly actvated device. Turn it on and fallow them to there camp.

SF or ranger team could sneak in to a camp and place mines around parked PA and vehicles. then fall back and engange in sniper fire and maybe call for fire. This whould cause them to rush out and the pilots whould go to there parked armor. (Works best if there are large PA like the GB that do not fit in sleeping argments.)

Call for fire. Getting attacked call in a misle or air strike. Also they can call for back up units CS has special quick responce teams to bring fresh waves of troops to the fight. (General rule of I use is if you fight a small cs force for more than 5 minetes without leaving the area a larger force shows up.)

Infiltrate...Team A member or squad pretends to join the other side may relay supply cash locations or sabatage gear for a key take down. Can be a long time sleeper agent gathering a list of your supplers and safe houses. (one game I ran there was a CS SF that was from the ARMs working to locate sorces of magic items so they can be shut down and shiped to the black vault. Gave him the skill to he could sabatage weapons. The rest the party did not know he was a CS spy. And said i was just beeing a jerk when there weapons jamed allot during fights with cs troops.)

Those are just some basic ideas. What i find works best is look what the gear can do and try to come up with ways to use it.

[Aaryq]

A good tactic I like to use is send in a light, fast moving force against an opponent they can never beat. Good Hollywood acting, attack like you don't have any sense and then conduct a professional (but disorganized looking) hasty retreat. Fire as you withdraw. The enemy will get cocky, thinking they're up against the keystone cops and rather than just let the idiots run away, they'll pursue. As they pursue, the retreating force comes up against the rest of their buddies (A). As the pursuing force meets up with A, the primary assault force (B) comes in from the flank (pick one) to pounce on the less defended position that the bait group first attacked.
Part of this comes from the book of Joshua, part from "The Patriot" and part from my own brain.

[Dustin Fireblade]

I did not get what I was looking for from this thread.

There is a HUGE, monumental difference between "Tactics" and "Strategy."

Perhaps I should have gone to the RECON forum where the rest of the vets hang out.

Sorry about that. I tend not to post a lot of "war stories" since I generally use a number of house rules when it comes to ranged combat.

That said I GM'd a long running CS game where the players were part of a Special Forces team based in Lone Star. To be brief, the players generally were very aggressive when it came to combat, but they always came up with a plan first prior to attacking. They were also pretty good at improvising and altering the plan as needed.

Generally though the team would establish a specific target, or series of targets, moving from one to the next in radio silence (unless something went wrong). If the opponent was particulary large (either in terms of size itself or just numbers), then they used a lot of ambushes. A couple of times they used themselves as bait.

Overall they made liberal use of grenade's, grenade launchers, rail guns and plasma ejectors. The C-5 was the popular sidearm, and they received approval to use a number of Wellington Industries weapons.

That whould be a good role for the cs sf but not the less well trained cs. By the book cs is fanantics that use tactics taken from world war to favoring blitz stile quick hit with lots of force. Most nations cant field more than a few hundred troops at most so one CS combat brigade can over run most of them. But if the CS Pushes to hard they may draw the other few nations that can field a large force into the fight. With the loss of tolkeen that reduces the number of real threats to the cs. If they attack either of the remaining threats the other will jump in.

I'm really not sure why people think the CS Grunt isn't well trained. It could always be better, but what can't?

I agree though, the CS has a lot of enemies and there is always the threat of these nations banding together. Personally if I was Prosek when I made the "Unity" speech and labeled Tolkeen as the first target that would actually have been a lie. A feint. In reality my forces were hitting both Kingsdale and New Lazlo at the same time. Kingsdale to help secure my back door and bread basket, and New Lazlo as a means of removing a close potential launching point for attacks against the CS and as an example. Both would be designed to gain practical experience for fighting magic based city-states and showing the strength of the CS. (I also wouldn't have kicked Quebec out, and do whatever I could to get myself an army of Glitter Boys, but that's another story)

[Dustin Fireblade]

Re-posting this from the "SAMAS Logistical" thread as it's more appropriate here -


First - don't announce who the target is. Tolkeen was given years to prepare their defenses.

Establish spec-op teams inside the city to conduct surveillance/intelligence gathering, sabotage, assassination of key leaders, and instigate trouble for the government. The first would be on-going, the second should start subtle (if at all, this might vary) and the third on D-Day if at all possible. The last will start after the invasion and the death of key leadership.

Take over any/all smaller outlying towns or villages and then surround the city-state and destroy all patrols and outposts - let reinforcements come to gauge the tactics and strength of the response, bleeding the enemy of the more conventional assets if at all possible. This should be done as quickly as possible. Kill all the mages and capture items of magic. Let the mundanes travel to the city-state and strain the conventional resources. All conventional trade is cut off.

Heavy missile strikes to soften the target.

Heavy use of propaganda to urge the mundanes to overthrow the mages and spare themselves. Combined with the proper amount of instigation by the Spec Ops teams, death of key leaders and a damaged infrastructure, this could happen, but it's likely to amount to civil unrest.

Use of feints by Skelebots, supported by heavy combat vehicles (anything that can keep up with the 'bots).

Once it's deemed appropriate, a aerial blitz is launched, using the heavy armored DHT's dropping from high altitude and dropping platoons of SAMAS at key locations. This would be proceeded by ground feints from several locations. Once the DHT's start releasing their troops the ground force launches a full assault led by Skelebots (the closest I come to a "wave"), Linebacker MBT's and heavy robot vehicles. Aerial assault continues using the various rocket cycles and Death Bringer APC's to land cyborg, juicer and psi troops to quickly counter magic-using opponents. Ground APC's roll in with the infantry to begin securing locations, moving inward.


Obviously no plan is perfect. Magic makes for both a tremendous defender and a dangerous wild card - there's no doubt about that. However the above strategy should be able to overtake any heavy magic based city-state (such as New Lazlo or Kingsdale) in a relatively short amount of time - perhaps a week. A kingdom much more spread out and larger, such as Tolkeen or Lazlo would be obviously harder, as both of those can draw on resources that can much more easily rival the CS.

[Blue_Lion]

[That whould be a good role for the cs sf but not the less well trained cs. By the book cs is fanantics that use tactics taken from world war to favoring blitz stile quick hit with lots of force. Most nations cant field more than a few hundred troops at most so one CS combat brigade can over run most of them. But if the CS Pushes to hard they may draw the other few nations that can field a large force into the fight. With the loss of tolkeen that reduces the number of real threats to the cs. If they attack either of the remaining threats the other will jump in.

I'm really not sure why people think the CS Grunt isn't well trained. It could always be better, but what can't?

I agree though, the CS has a lot of enemies and there is always the threat of these nations banding together. Personally if I was Prosek when I made the "Unity" speech and labeled Tolkeen as the first target that would actually have been a lie. A feint. In reality my forces were hitting both Kingsdale and New Lazlo at the same time. Kingsdale to help secure my back door and bread basket, and New Lazlo as a means of removing a close potential launching point for attacks against the CS and as an example. Both would be designed to gain practical experience for fighting magic based city-states and showing the strength of the CS. (I also wouldn't have kicked Quebec out, and do whatever I could to get myself an army of Glitter Boys, but that's another story)

Wait you disagree with me saying a grunt is less well trained that CS special forces?

Tolkeen is closer to CS boarder was more agressive and had been blamed for several attacks. They had some one else set up to take out kingsdale but Know that it was not fallowed threw on. With the lack of a clear target in the FoM New Lazlo may be the cs next target.

Its not that the cs Grunt is poorly trained but that he represents the basic level of combat training available to a formal military in rifts. But I also disagree with the idea that just any mage off the street beeing used in a formal military force. Even a small nation like kingsdale gave there troops basic combat training.

[Blue_Lion]

Re-posting this from the "SAMAS Logistical" thread as it's more appropriate here -


First - don't announce who the target is. Tolkeen was given years to prepare their defenses.

Establish spec-op teams inside the city to conduct surveillance/intelligence gathering, sabotage, assassination of key leaders, and instigate trouble for the government. The first would be on-going, the second should start subtle (if at all, this might vary) and the third on D-Day if at all possible. The last will start after the invasion and the death of key leadership.

Take over any/all smaller outlying towns or villages and then surround the city-state and destroy all patrols and outposts - let reinforcements come to gauge the tactics and strength of the response, bleeding the enemy of the more conventional assets if at all possible. This should be done as quickly as possible. Kill all the mages and capture items of magic. Let the mundanes travel to the city-state and strain the conventional resources. All conventional trade is cut off.

Heavy missile strikes to soften the target.

Heavy use of propaganda to urge the mundanes to overthrow the mages and spare themselves. Combined with the proper amount of instigation by the Spec Ops teams, death of key leaders and a damaged infrastructure, this could happen, but it's likely to amount to civil unrest.

Use of feints by Skelebots, supported by heavy combat vehicles (anything that can keep up with the 'bots).

Once it's deemed appropriate, a aerial blitz is launched, using the heavy armored DHT's dropping from high altitude and dropping platoons of SAMAS at key locations. This would be proceeded by ground feints from several locations. Once the DHT's start releasing their troops the ground force launches a full assault led by Skelebots (the closest I come to a "wave"), Linebacker MBT's and heavy robot vehicles. Aerial assault continues using the various rocket cycles and Death Bringer APC's to land cyborg, juicer and psi troops to quickly counter magic-using opponents. Ground APC's roll in with the infantry to begin securing locations, moving inward.


Obviously no plan is perfect. Magic makes for both a tremendous defender and a dangerous wild card - there's no doubt about that. However the above strategy should be able to overtake any heavy magic based city-state (such as New Lazlo or Kingsdale) in a relatively short amount of time - perhaps a week. A kingdom much more spread out and larger, such as Tolkeen or Lazlo would be obviously harder, as both of those can draw on resources that can much more easily rival the CS.

Tolkeen for the most part knew well before the anonment that they whould be a target. Even in curnt times targets know they are the target well before they are attacked not always years, not shure why it took the cs so longt o go to war in the first place.

Intelgence wars agaist magic using kingdoms are realy hard to wage long term, and if a high level mage has some sort of pasive defence may fail. If they do not get caght by the securty forces of the magic using nation.

Taking out out post is a good idea. But rember you cant always count on speed to get away.

They tried heavey missle barrage at tolkeen before the war did no damage. They did bomb other targets to the ground before sending in troops, and if you bomb a target to much you may take out infestructure you may want when you own the real estate.

And with the defenders having air asstest or even summoning up new air forces not having ground forces to back up your air may be a problem.

I do not see kingsdale lasting a week agaist the cs but new lazlo has larger more agresive military and may last longer.

It is a good plan bassed on curent docturn but with so much that can stop any step is at best a loose guide.

[Zer0 Kay]

I did not get what I was looking for from this thread.

There is a HUGE, monumental difference between "Tactics" and "Strategy."

Perhaps I should have gone to the RECON forum where the rest of the vets hang out.

What difference is that that a Strategy is how to win a war while tactics are immediate battle actions? Strategy is a lot of thought while tactics are often muscle memory? Strategy is done by guys who have stars on their shoulder or others who plan what to do without ever being in the battle while tactics are done by everyone actually in the battle? Strategic is a bunch of MT with a big mushroom cloud and tactical is a few KT and a ground burst? Strategic entry is telling your guys to take "that" building and there are 100 opfor give or take 100, while a tactical entry is here is the room Jim you take lead, there are no hostages, we need to do this hard and fast (open door toss flash bang charge room and shoot anything that moves or has a human profile.)? Kinda like that?

[Mack]

Dept of Defense definitions:

strategic level of war - (DOD) The level of war at which a nation, often as a member of a group of nations, determines national or multinational (alliance or coalition) strategic security objectives and guidance, and develops and uses national resources to achieve these objectives. Activities at this level establish national and multinational military objectives; sequence initiatives; define limits and assess risks for the use of military and other instruments of national power; develop global plans or theater war plans to achieve those objectives; and provide military forces and other capabilities in accordance with strategic plans.

operational level of war - (DOD) The level of war at which campaigns and major operations are planned, conducted, and sustained to achieve strategic objectives within theaters or other operational areas. Activities at this level link tactics and strategy by establishing operational objectives needed to achieve the strategic objectives, sequencing events to achieve the operational objectives, initiating actions, and applying resources to bring about and sustain these events.

tactical level of war - (DOD) The level of war at which battles and engagements are planned and executed to achieve military objectives assigned to tactical units or task forces. Activities at this level focus on the ordered arrangement and maneuver of combat elements in relation to each other and to the enemy to achieve combat objectives.

[Blue_Lion]

personally, the CS military strikes me as a very soviet style force. quantity over quality in most things (both when they can get it), with strategy leaning towards waves of forces to batter down the enemy. each wave sent off based on a minutely detailed timeline, with little room for personal initiative on the part of lower ranking officers to factor into battle plans.
thats basically how the CS fought the SoT, and their military supports that. their soldiers are considered expendible, as are their vehicles to an extent. they're not particularly flexible or well trained, relying more on brute force to overcome opponents.

Odd that was my way of understanding it to. Witch is why they use the word swarm talking about CS skella bots and grunts and that is from cs battle tactics.

Also if you look at the cs attacks in the graphic novel for rifts, line troops where told to go in and rush in guns blazing with no consern of what is behind the target.

Other cases of dumb tatcis of cs are all over the place, one apc off by it self in FOM, troops riding on top so they can feel the fresh air (um that means the removed part or all there armor in the FOM yea that is well trained.) Now i am not saying they are not trained just that there training for grunts and line troops is base level. Now the CS SF is well trained well led and a good SF force this includes CS rangers Comandos and Special forcess OCCs.

To say the cs has good battle tactics because they have access to books is not true, most common tactics come from docturn and training. An army that had not had any large scale combat in over 10 years whould have out dated training and plans. Many cs troops where affected by the stresses of battle for the first couple of months in combat, do not have the stats on it but belive there was something on horror factor in one of the SOT books will look it up when i get off work.

Simply put while the cs may know about human mental state from books it does not have much thaght in the main line troops (high desertion is an accemple). They use heavey propaganda progams to keep there solders in line and motivated come save the human race and get a cool uniform. They bassed allot of the CS army on WWII germany, with some parts taken from us army for conviance. Basicaly they whould not act like a US fighting force or even a german one the CS is a beast unto itself.

[Jack Daniels]

The CS soldier is vicious and hard, not because he enjoys it but because he needs to be that way. He is the sheepdog, the warrior watching over and protecting his loved ones, his city and even his very planet. He is kind, loyal and protective of his own, and is willing to move towards the sound of the gunfire as everyone he fights to protect moves away from it.....

From the point of view of the CS, this is exactly accurate, I don't think anyone can argue it because it is repeatedly stated as being so in the books. This does not however automatically equate to your statement that follows.

I hate thinking of the CS as disposable, dime-a-dozen "foot clan" cannon fodder. These troops are among the most sophisticated and advanced warriors the earth has ever seen, and their training should reflect that.

I think that the problem that you have with some other people's assessment of the CS troopers quality stems from this. Why is it that you feel this way? Is there some passage in a book that you base this on? If you can describe where this view of the CS Grunt comes from it might help others more competently explain why they disagree and that just might result in a more productive conversation.

[Zer0 Kay]

Pretty much exactly like that, yes.

A Jar Head eh? I was one of those who aimed high and sat in an office with A/C. I'm just glad there are people in the Army and Marines to do the hard work. I've always thought of the AF and USN as support forces to soften up the target for you guys.

Of course there are those insane few in the USAF that decide to hang out of a helo while under fire to pick some poor shot up guy up or those nuts who like taking air fields and then reusing it as one of ours. You'd think that the enemy would respond to a loss of communication from an air launch facilty quickly... but the class of our opponents has been on steady decline.

[Blue_Lion]

Before I say anything else it is apparent that if ANYONE says anything good about the CS or tries to make the CS what they should be there is a huge group want them to be bumbling idiots or gung ho shoot at anything that moves. It is getting very frustrating that they don't open up to the possibility that CS could do something different and tries to shoot anything down that doesn't fit what they like. It's either because that's how the CS was ran for them or that they want the Star Wars Imperial Troopers syndrome with a bit of Lucas's good guy plot device. So try it sometime where the CS is the good guys for once and see what happens but for now try to keep a little bit open minded.

Also if you look at the cs attacks in the graphic novel for rifts, line troops where told to go in and rush in guns blazing with no concern of what is behind the target.

Sorry I looked at the graphic novel for Rifts and I wasn't impressed on what the AUTHOR thought of CS line troopers would do. Also I wouldn't use anything from the novels themselves because I never had the chance to read them at all.

Other cases of dumb tactics of cs are all over the place, one APC off by it self in FoM, troops riding on top so they can feel the fresh air (um that means the removed part or all there armor in the FoM yea that is well trained.)

I'm sorry unless you EVER been in a suit of body armor for days on end, probably on patrol; you would want to feel the fresh air. Also that is NOT tactics that is just there is NOTHING around and want some fresh air instead of filtered in the APC. If there were any threat like an attack big enough to kill the APC in one shot then they would be on the ground weapons ready as the APC rolls slowly with them to give fire support and radio support. They also have to check in at certain intervals so if there was any attack that wiped them out in one shot (not likely with magic users spell list from main book and RUE. I'm not referencing the book of magic since I don't have that) the post they were relaying to would send out an Mechanized Division because if there is something out there that can take out a Mk V APC and the compliment of solders and equipment would be a big threat to the CS itself. So looking at that they would do it probably out of boredom and need to loosen up because if you ever ridden in a vehicle for more than a couple of hours you would want to get some fresh air. Since they need to keep moving because of patrol they can just be on the top while the crew that is needed to drive and keep in touch would be in there and rotating drivers to get the optimum distance per day.

Actualy i have and one of my jobs as a NCO is making shure every one has it on right in combat zones. Lots of people make the gear worse on themself not putting it on right but it does suck to be in it. Just because i am not quoting real life books and history does not mean i do not know it, but when it comes to games i perfer keeping the refences to games. The CS armor is lighter than that that i have on when i go on mission, i stay in full kit for 20+ hours at a time some times. Do i like taking it of yes am i going to do it exposed out side the wire no that is disaplin. Whould i rather just sling my weapon and not maintain securty on foot, yes will i no. Do things right out of the wire to come back safe then you can relax tell you are needed again.

The Mark V was hit with an ambush simular to how insurgents whould without another vehicle on the site to help they can be moped up. That is why you never send 1 combat vehicle into hostle territory, but that is what the CS. Even if you do not agree with how the CS are protraid in a book that is cannon that does not make it not cannon.

Part of the reason the CS is protraid the way it is because it gives the pcs a fighting chance agaist them. For a non CS party encounters with CS line troops whould be common, a ariel patrol of samas, dog pack patrol, or a APC if they where not a moderate threat such constant encounts whould whipe the party. Now am i saying you have t play it that way no, but that is the way it is written. Keven Siemba did have access to people with military background and could have made a all SF stile army but he chose not to.

Also I know of lots of Dumb tactics our own military used in the last 10 years and we are a highly trained army. Be that convoys not alternating lanes (made them IED targets tell a Natial guard unit came up with the idea of alternating lanes of travel.) or troops getting tunnel vision on what is infront of them and not seeing my OFOR team come up behind them and whipe out 65% of the convoy before whe where called off.

There are lots of things that can in a group or by itself take out one lone APC they had no air excort just one apc by it self.

[Blue_Lion]

Given the rather complex equipment the CS has even at the Grunt-level (They all have radio, night-vision, environmentals etc) they need to be well drilled/trained to simply operate the stuff. The fact that CS squads use "mixed weapon" approaches rather that the dedicated "rifle" and "heavy weapon" approach re-inforces that since this requires the NCO to have a grasp on how to use their squads equipment behind "line them up, keep the ranks closed" The large number of mechanised and the integration on the lower (company/batallion) level force a well trained officers corps even below Major to use the stuff. So one can assume a well trained, disciplined force from the source material


We also lack info on Coalition APC/IFV outside the huge and/or flying ones. One would expect them to have a hover-IFV to match their Hovertanks since that would be a good fit for their forces giving them a fast "all terrain" strike force. The Mark V (like the NGR counterpart) makes little sense within the CS forces unless it is mostly a headquarters/rear area security vehicle. For all other jobs it is too slow and given the terrain in most of non-CS america not mobile enough.

(1)Contrary to popular believes the thinking soldier was highly encouraged and the "break them/rebuild them" type of basic training no longer used back then
(2)Blitzkrieg is strategy/logistics, not tactics
(3)BAOR was well known for it's "whatever it takes" approach to excercises and tactics. This included digging in MILAN ATGM in some old ladies front garden if defending the bridge/town demanded it

The use of reading and math skills in schools are to help expand the mind both are lacking in CS troops. What book says they mix weapons in a squad level element. But even that does not mean that they are a good unit I have seen what is basicaly a pesent army with a mix of weapons in squads. The cs grunt is well trained to the point of Lemming factor setting in. That is a unit behaving in predetermed way that can be herded to do something that is bad like driving in a strait line in one lane on a road.

The Mark V is a old CS vehicle from before the CS war book. It is a relible vehicle but older than most other CS gear. Why not make it a fling vehicle, probaly to provide deversty in combat vehicles if they all use type-x methond ot get around and spell Y counters X then you have a problem. Look at the varity of vehicles and weapons used now days some are tracked some are not some fly some are gound. Close air suport is good but you need troops on the ground to win a fight and something on the ground to back them up at the time that was the Mark V.

[DhAkael]

CS battle tactics = 1st edition WH40k Imp. gaurd.
Re: Scream and charge the guns by the gross-lot.
They aint that bright.

[Killer Cyborg]

I hate thinking of the CS as disposable, dime-a-dozen "foot clan" cannon fodder. These troops are among the most sophisticated and advanced warriors the earth has ever seen, and their training should reflect that.

I think that the problem that you have with some other people's assessment of the CS troopers quality stems from this. Why is it that you feel this way? Is there some passage in a book that you base this on? If you can describe where this view of the CS Grunt comes from it might help others more competently explain why they disagree and that just might result in a more productive conversation.

They're certainly the standard for Rifts Earth soldiers. In the early books, before power creep really kicked in, most armies for other nations/regions would describe their soldiers as "the equivalent of the CS Grunt" with maybe one or two notes of difference.

viewtopic.php?p=2045146#p2045146

Go back to the original Rifts book, and they were as good as any other OCC, because that's how they're supposed to be.
They were the standard.
The only reason they've slipped down is because of power creep, because every writer wants their soldiers to be better than the standard, and they write them that way.

I ususally agree with you, but I also think that the cs grunt is dumb. On purpose. The other cs soldier occs are quite intelligent and well trained. The grunt however, doesn't even have to do basic math, or read. It just has to walk, shoot, kill.

Not being able to do basic math doesn't mean that they're dumb, just ignorant.
And of the four human CS OCCs in the book (grunt, SAMAS Pilot, Military Specialist, and Technical Officer, only the Technical Officer starts with basic math.

The only thing the grunts are good at may be combat, but they are supposed to be good at that.
EVERY CS Grunt can pilot tanks, hovercraft, and robots/power armor, and has HTH: Expert.
That's not bad, not in comparison to the other original Man-At-Arms OCCs.
The Grunt gets a total of 29 skills at first level.
The SAM pilot gets 32
The Military Specialist gets 34
The Technical Officer gets 25

Grunt isn't great, but he has more skills than the technical officer (though not as good of bonuses).

Crazies get 28 skills
Borgs get 18 skills
GB Pilots get 26 skills
Headhunters get 33 skills
Juicers get 27 skills
The Cyberknight gets 39 skills.

So of the original 10 Man-At-Arms OCCs, CS Grunts get more skills than half of them.
That's not "poorly trained" or "stupid."

Another thing to keep in mind is that in any army there are green recruits and there are veterans. The typical CS Grunt is only 1st level, so that's more towards the green recruit end of things... but green doesn't mean "poorly trained."

It might make a difference in what tactics are used, though, because green troops are more likely to go "by the book" in many cases, or to stray from the book at the wrong times in the wrong ways.
The more seasoned soldiers will have a better grasp of what actually works.

[Killer Cyborg]

As far as tactics go, here are my thoughts:

CS Grunts do NOT have any special lore skills for dealing with their enemies. No Demon Lore or Psychic Lore or anything. Why this is, I'm not sure. Perhaps the CS wants to keep their guys in the dark simply to better control them with fear and paranoia.
If you're trying to convince them that the man you just executed was guilty of possessing a CS official, you don't want them piping up with "But he was only a Minor Psychic. Only the most powerful psychics can actually possess somebody; minor psychics only have a couple of limited abilities."
Granted, they are able to learn Any technical skill with a +5% bonus (which again speaks to quality training), so a number of grunts most likely DO have some appropriate lore skills. It's just not part of basic training, apparently.

The would be likely to have a lot of Standard Operating Procedures, though.
For example:
-When you kill any demon, mage, or monster, chop the body into pieces and burn it once the fight is over.
-Make mages and psychics a priority target; they are powerful and unpredictable. Shoot them first, THEN focus on taking out any gun-toting demons or men-at-arms on the other team.
-Do not remove your helmet or any other part of your armor while on patrol or in any combat zone. When the armor gets too uncomfortable and/or you have to take a break, go to a secure area such as the inside of a building/bunker or APC/tank.
-When fighting anything that keeps dodging your attacks without slowing down (autododge), wait until they pause to attack you, then open fire (simultaneous attack).
-When you're in CS territory, where you can get armor and weapons repaired, replaced or recharged easily, use burst settings and don't be afraid to take some damage to your armor. Also, use grenades and missiles freely (but safely), since they can be replaced when you get to the nearest base.
-When you're away from home turf, and supplies/repairs are hard to come by, be more conservative with your arsenal, and protect your armor whenever possible; your armor is your life.
-Mages have trouble casting spells when they're under attack. Press them hard, and when possible use concussive weapons like grenades in order to keep them off balance. Tear gas is also often effective.
-Even in a mega-damage firefight, make good use of terrain and cover. Hiding behind meda-damage cover is best (like an APC, or fallen soldier in MDC armor), but even SDC cover is often better than no cover at all. If you keep your torso under cover, the enemy will either have to blow through the cover to get to you (dispersing at least some of the damage) or take extra time attacking in order to aim for your head or arms.
-When facing inferior SDC foes, use your SDC weapon settings when applicable. But if the enemy is capable of dealing significant damage, don't be afraid to use a mega-damage setting to end things more quickly.
-If teamed with dogboys and/or psi-stalkers, take their advice when it comes to dealing with supernatural threats.
-If the fight goes against you, and a retreat is in order, toss down a smoke grenade and/or lay down suppressive fire to cover your retreat.
-Even monsters don't like pain. If what you're fighting appears to be a living being of some kind, even if your weapons don't do a lot of damage, keep firing. Even minor damage might be enough to drive it away for a time.
-Try not to cluster together when patrolling or fighting; it makes you easy fodder for explosives and spells. But don't range too far apart, either.
-Never go off alone. Try to stay in groups of at least two, ideally three. That way if one of you gets possessed, the other two will be able to pacify the possessed individual.
-When fighting lightly armored opponents, it's often more effective to take out one of the limbs instead of aiming at the main body.
But only when you have the time and opportunity to make the shot. The same applies to weapons. If you can destroy your enemy's gun, that often means that he can no longer hurt you.
-Engaging a mage in melee combat can tie him up and force him onto the defense until your allies can take him down, even if you don't have any MD melee weapons.
-Remember that your armor has up to 5 hours of oxygen stored in case you need it. If you're under any kind of chemical or gas attack, switch to o2 instead of filtered air. Also, remember that if necessary for an ambush or retreat, you can jump into a river, pond, or bog and lurk at the bottom for the next several hours or more. Likewise, you can bury yourself completely in leaves, sand, or mud.
-Some supernatural creatures are harmed by certain substances like wood, iron or silver, or kinds of attacks such as cold, heat, or energy. Keep your eyes open for any demonstrated weakness, and be prepared to exploit it.
-Neural maces are not effective against magical or supernatural creatures, but they are still effective against many targets, from normal people and creatures to mega-damage mutants and animals.
-A vibro knife is a tool as well as a weapon. They can be invaluable when making temporary fortifications or shelter.
-When conversing or negotiating, always insist that the other people speak only American. This helps put the encounter on your terms, and helps you avoid any tricks or traps of a foreign language. Even if you're well-versed in the other language, the native speakers are going to be better at it than you are. Also, it never hurts to keep your language skills to yourself (and your team mates), just to see what the others are saying when they think you're not listening.
-Many or most magical items and weapons can house a spirit or other supernatural entity/force inside it. It is best to destroy these items when captured, unless they are unique enough that they should be taken in for examination. Ask your superiors when in doubt.
-Signal flares can be used to cue a coordinated attack, to summon reinforcements, or as an improvised weapon.

[Colt47]

PS: I noted the use of mines and traps. It's truly amazing how few defenses Rifts has for this type of assault. Even a D-bee wizard can lay a cunning non-magical trap to kill off the pursuing psi-stalker or dog boy unit. Sixth-sense, yes, but not much else. Use anti-personal mines to soften up MDC armor, the loud noises could also alert CS patrols and they could notify CS Command, who in turn send a aerial patrol to investigate.

The CS would certainly acknowledge the use of of such tactics in undesirable areas (like magic user controlled forests). In areas they need for strategic reasons, the use of traps (particularly the indiscriminate kind) will lessen. Specifically note that the CS EOD specialist can make the existing explosive traps do considerably more damage.

It's reasons like these that I go by this rule of thumb when buying up traveling gear: don't invest in nuclear engines unless it flies! Can't tell you how many times people try to stick a nuclear powered engine in a mountaineer and it ends up getting totaled by some well laid trap by bandits, thieves, or worse. Yes, gas is expensive and recharging energy cells can be a bit of a pain, but it costs no where as much as that 600,000 credit nuclear powered engine.

Edit: Speaking of which, the logistics of having completely nuclear powered vehicles for just about every military operation seems a bit excessive. Mathematically it seems cheaper and more efficient to have electric engined vehicles with self powered weapons on routine patrols.

[Samored II]

personally, the CS military strikes me as a very soviet style force. quantity over quality in most things (both when they can get it), with strategy leaning towards waves of forces to batter down the enemy. each wave sent off based on a minutely detailed timeline, with little room for personal initiative on the part of lower ranking officers to factor into battle plans.
thats basically how the CS fought the SoT, and their military supports that. their soldiers are considered expendible, as are their vehicles to an extent. they're not particularly flexible or well trained, relying more on brute force to overcome opponents.

That's essentially how the CSM fought the pre-Sorcerers Reveng portion of the conflict. Post-SR they brought in the first team.

[dragonfett]

I'll have to remember that.

[Shark_Force]

where is the CS going to get their holy water, out of curiosity? because last i checked, the kinds of people who can make holy water tend to have a significant overlap with the kinds of people the CS has a kill-on-sight policy towards.

also, from what i can tell, the CS is in fact almost completely unprepared for vampire combat. they can't even handle issuing pointy sticks to their regular troops, let alone advanced holy water based traps and whatnot.

[dragonfett]

First, the CS would never use holy water because that means that it has to be blessed by a spell and confers belief/following some religion which the CS would never condone, mostly because it means bowing down to a higher power/supernatural being and the CS wouldn't do that.

As far as I know, there are few vampires in the CS State of Lonestar, or at least few known ones. I think they are still further west at the moment, not to mention that all of the Vampire Intelligences would want to avoid letting their vampires gather too much power in Lonestar for fear of drawing CS attention too soon. These are creatures of immense intellect and foresight. They do not fear the CS specifically, they realize that if the CS were ever to realize the severity of the situation, they would band together and make a concerted push to push them south of the Rio Grande river. Not to mention IIRC, Dr. Desmond Bradford has been sending expeditions into Mexico to learn more about vampires and their strengths and weaknesses.

And as for werewolves, as far as I know, there aren't enough were-creatures to warrant issuing and deploying or even making silvered frag mines or grenades and stuff like that.

[Killer Cyborg]

IIRC, the CS's view on religion is that it's all well and good as long as nobody's God actually shows up.

[Colt47]

IIRC, the CS's view on religion is that it's all well and good as long as nobody's God actually shows up.

Perhaps the most ironic statement in the entire universe. It's ok to believe in something as long as it doesn't prove to be actually REAL!

[Aaryq]

Just personal opinion but I would say it would be a BYOB. If he's critically lacking the CS could rent it or sell it to him (depending on what it is) and take it out of his pay