Crazy occ really needs a Juicer Uprising style book

[Shark_Force]

ummm... ok.

first, we look up automatic dodge. it's on page 344 of RUE. it basically says that it's just like dodge, except you don't need to spend an action to do it.

so, let's have a look at dodge (page 345). nothing in there about being unable to dodge ranged attacks either.

in contrast, parry (page 346) explicitly says you can't typically attempt it vs bullets and energy blasts.

so where exactly do you get the impression that automatic dodge doesn't work against ranged attacks? if you can dodge something, and have the automatic dodge ability, you can also automatic dodge that something.

[Sureshot]

Guys you want to talk about other stuff besides suggestions for a Crazy sourcebook take it elsewhere. I don't want this thread turning into a "I think this is waht this rule says no your wrong etc" type of thread. No one is saying that Crazies are underpowered. They could use more variety and felshing out.

[Killer Cyborg]

Chipped skills (they should also have these available for Borgs)
More specific implants like in Psyscape
More insanities
Skills that help cope with insanities
TW devices that are popular with crazies
More details on insanities (longer lists of phobias, obsessions, etc. More variety and detail on multiple personalities)
Skills that augment insanities (Extra Frenzy bonuses, more control over triggering other personalities, more bonuses from paranoia, etc.)
Drugs popular with Crazies (medication or recreation)
Physical side-effects (drooling, twitching, spasms, etc)
Tips on playing Crazies (archetypes other than Daffy Duck, you could be more Hamlet, Hannibal Lector, Crazy Cat Lady, Zelig, or other types)
Crazy gangs
Crazy wannabes
Interaction between insanities and psychic powers (poltergeist effects)
New psionic skills and HTH combat forms (HTH TK, Telepathy/Empathy, Ectoplasm, etc)

[Supergyro]

The line between cyborg and crazy is ever a fuzzy one.

An interesting thing to develop more thoroughly is M.O.M. addition to cyborg modification. It was hinted at in Mindwerks, but like so much in the book, very undeveloped.

Or conversely, some interesting ideas as to why MOM modification doesn't work on cyborgs (increased side effects, etc).

[Sureshot]

Worst comes to worst Paxmiles you can always troubleshoot stuff you are not sure about in this thread if you ever write the book. And I agree the insanties in PB ruleset in general really need an update. Starting to show their age. Better rp advice is also needed as the fiction of the Crazy in the RUE is not that great imo and very lacking.

[Hound]

You know... you got me thinking.. this is never a good thing! I'm thinking of 3 different "variants" already.. I might just start writing them up tonight...

I think the key is the human brain. Humans use what.. 10%? What can that other 90% unlock and at what cost? How about a Crazy who has an ungodly amount of skills and can master almost anything but as a result.. can't focus well ("I can easily hijack this Kitanni Robot vehicle.. just hotwire this to that and rig this here and... ooh... butterflies.. I bet I can crossbreed them with a few other species to create attack... um.. why am I in this robot?").
OR- someone who is SOO wired and soo fast on the draw that he cannot sleep without meds.. the upside being his conscious dreams can be made real with Ectoplasm...

[Supergyro]

A new twist.

The MOM rules in Mindwerks are a little vague, but I found something which alters at least my thinking a bit.

It says that standard "Crazy" augmentation can only be used on humans or human like DBees (Mindwerks p 17). But it also explicitly states that the MOM implants can individually be put into gurgoyles, broodkill etc.

but, on P 19, it discusses what happens when a character gets MOM implants. It says that if they get 3 or more, they muct become a Crazy, receiving all the OCC's powers, bonuses, etc.. (Mindwerks p 19).

This could mean two things

1) The implants given in Mindwerks would be in addition to the bonuses for a Crazy OCC (which changes things a bit). A character with brain programming and hyper sense MOM implants would have some bonues, put in another MOM implant, that character would become a Crazy, and the Crazy bonuses would stack on top of the previous MOM implants

2) it is unclear, but what happens when you put that 3rd MOm implant into the brain of a Gurgoyle? Does the gurgoyle become a Crazy in a non-standard way (with the crazy bonuses stacking on top of the MOM implant) or can Gurgoyles simply not have more than two implants (which doesn't seem the intent since it's a very low limit and the cover of the book is literally MOM enhanced Gargoyles)?

PS. Have any of you put some of these implants into gurgoyles and seen what happens? The rules are kind of poorly written but there are some very relevant things that could happen.

- Enhanced healing, does it double the Gurgoyle bio-regeneration (4d6 per hour becomes 8d6 per hour)?
-Enhanced PE, does that 3d4x10 SDC add 3d4x10 MDC to the gurgoyle?
- Gurgloyes with paired weapons and 18-20 critical strikes at level 1, this is a nasty thing in melee
- Am I the only on who noticed that Gurgoyles have an average PP of 25? Augment that with the brain programming Weapon proficiencies and martial arts and you start to get some very high bonuses (which in melee, can come into play since paired weapons explicitly can be used to parry and simultaneous attack at the same time).

The ideas were there, but it seems like they weren't playtested to ensure that they were usable. Given that pictures of MOM broodkill and gargoyles are all over the book, I would have liked a better discussion of exactly what happens when you make an MOM gargoyle.

[Supergyro]

Another idea. If skills can be brain programmed, and psionic powers and magic are skills, could they be brain programmed? It would be nice to cast call lightning at 7th level right away.... but perhaps magic can't be made to work that way.

Would mindwerks vaults be filled with the grisly results of attempts to do so?

[Supergyro]

So quick errata question regarding the brain programming side effects: Does the decrease in natural skill %s result in decreases on the skill's max percent or just the current?

For example, I create a robot pilot OCC and he aquires brain programming. I roll 65 on the table and my skills normally learned skills are now at -15%. Does this mean that I can't increase the class skills to more than 83% (98% is typical cap, -15 is 83)? Or just my current skill of 75% is reduced to 60%, but it can be increased to 98% with levels.
-Pax

I would presume that the -15 doesn't change the cap at 98%, it just prevents you from getting to that cap until later.

I always thought that one could have a skill at above 100%, but that a 99 and 100 were failures no matter the skill level, but the surplus would come into play to to overcome minuses (a-la that old After The Bomb road warrior supplement..... ok I'm old).

[Shark_Force]

So quick errata question regarding the brain programming side effects: Does the decrease in natural skill %s result in decreases on the skill's max percent or just the current?

For example, I create a robot pilot OCC and he aquires brain programming. I roll 65 on the table and my skills normally learned skills are now at -15%. Does this mean that I can't increase the class skills to more than 83% (98% is typical cap, -15 is 83)? Or just my current skill of 75% is reduced to 60%, but it can be increased to 98% with levels.
-Pax

I would presume that the -15 doesn't change the cap at 98%, it just prevents you from getting to that cap until later.

I always thought that one could have a skill at above 100%, but that a 99 and 100 were failures no matter the skill level, but the surplus would come into play to to overcome minuses (a-la that old After The Bomb road warrior supplement..... ok I'm old).

technically, that's a super ability that only a very few characters get (only ones i can think of offhand are hardware characters from heroes unlimited, but there could be others). it does make sense though, imo.

[MikelAmroni]

The reason the Juicer Uprising book worked was not because it expanded the Juicer. It worked because it was a very OCC specific world event that allowed for the expansion of the OCC. If you're design goal for a book is to "expand the OCC" you will fail (case in point - Cyberknights). Even the bionics book is pretty much a bunch of reprints with a few add ons (worthy add ons, but only add ons)

You could do a crazy based event in Europe, you could do one in South America, but that's about it. North America just doesn't have the impetus to have an event like that. An expanded Poland/Eastern Europe world/sourcebook could touch on Crazies as a whole, and on Mindwerks, while remaining useful to the average gamer. You could even have a city founded by crazy refugees of Mindwerks (A crazy eternal brain borg sets up a town for other refugees - the dynamics of that many issues in one settlement is ripe for adventure).

And as part of the crazy expansion, you could expand the insanity tables, and even set up a manageable tier system of insanities for Crazies, allowing for them to be useful and workable, even as they are stark raving mad and powerful at higher levels. And crazy only psychic powers (super telekinetic versions of TK leap, TK punch, etc) might be good as well, but tie them to higher levels as a crazy. Give them a reason to want to get up higher level. "That crazy just jumped thirty feet straight into the air and then kicked that garloyle lord in the face! Now THAT is cool!"

[Killer Cyborg]

The reason the Juicer Uprising book worked was not because it expanded the Juicer. It worked because it was a very OCC specific world event that allowed for the expansion of the OCC. If you're design goal for a book is to "expand the OCC" you will fail (case in point - Cyberknights). Even the bionics book is pretty much a bunch of reprints with a few add ons (worthy add ons, but only add ons)

Gotta disagree there.
Several members of our group bought JU, and we never once used the setting/plot stuff inside that book.
The world event wasn't a draw for anybody I know.
Sure, motivation will vary a bit by group, but I'm betting that new OCC info and toys was the big draw.

For that matter, the book with the CKs in it is more of an example of a failed plotline (SoT) where one book is more likely to be owned just for the OCC info.

[Killer Cyborg]

Man, if half these psynetic ideas go through, regular master psychics will look even more in need of an overhaul..

Actually, the psynetic ones we've talked about are already in the mindwerks book. They are just written in an incredibly confusing manner that tends to detour people from trying them.

There would need to be an in-game reason for why Mindwerks modifications were widely available in America, if you want any of their implants to impact the game world.

I had another thought regarding the book. In WB 26 they mention the bicycle, but mostly as a generic transport option. I'm thinking that Crazies are the most likely OCC to use a bicycle - they'd also have a ton of unusual uses for them too.

A RUE human crazy has an average speed of 25-26 (before physical skills), which is doubled on a bicycle for 50-52 Spd. This means that a "standard" crazy can go 35mph on 200 credit mode of transportation. Adding a few physical skills, or better than average rolls and you have a vehicle that rivals many rifts land vehicles...

Example ideas for crazy bicycles:

-rigging the gears to play a specific tune while riding.

-mounting weapons on the bicycle (like the germans did in WW2)

-Crazy extreme sports (riding SDC bicycles through "hot" zones, minefields, and so forth...)

-Unicycles....

-Mounting a ram onto the front (perhaps silver plated for vamp raming action...)

-Pax

There's a fine line between Crazy and Silly.
I think you just did a wheelie over that line.

[Killer Cyborg]

There's a fine line between Crazy and Silly.
I think you just did a wheelie over that line.

Fair enough. At least I now know where the line is. This doesn't mean that my crazy characters won't have bicycles....
-Pax

Fair enough.

[Sureshot]

First, "life isn't fair". Just because Crazies are augmented supermen and Juicers are augmented supermen, and Juicers got their own book, does not mean Crazies need their own book.

Please don't derail this thread. I started this thread because unlike Juicers I find Crazies could use more love and some more fleshing out in terms of culture. You don't want to see one fine. Start a thread called Crazies don't need a new sorucebook.

Juicer uprising wasn't just an "Ode to Juicers". It detailed a lot of Juicer culture, packed in some gear and was mostly centered around the plot of whatever those aliens were called. The Phallus? Whatever. And it added Juicer variants. But we already have Crazy variants. Sure, they're spread out across a few different books. And a lot of them are regional. If you're guy really wants to play a variant, chances are good you can always hand wave it in with "the Chop Shop that did your implants had a limited number of these experimental foreign models" or some such. Somewhere around here there's a guy who has all his CKs run around with their Third Eye opened (from Psyscape) and the TK swords from South America as standard issue. *shrug* I completely reworked the psionic system. It's your game.

And I'm trying to avoid having to handwave a new Crazy variant by hopefully seeing a Crazie sourcebook in print. As I already have enough to do as a GM if I ever ran a game of Rifts. If someone were to ask me about more info about Juicers in general I hand him the JU. One book. If he were to ask me about Crazies I would have to hand him what 3-5 books. There goes his interest most likely.

I'm not sure Crazies could really unify towards a cause like Juicers did. Juicers are normal folks living fast and dying hard. Crazies are...***kin crazy! Jokes about politics aside, I'm not sure I really see Crazies working well with each other in large groups. It makes it write a book about a "Crazy Uprising" without sounding silly. "For PONY!!!"

No one expected Juicers to unite either yet they did in JU. Who says Crazies would not be able. As long as the backstory for uniting toghher makes sense why not. Even than it does not have to have a backstory just some new Crazy variants with possibly new weapons and other things. Or even just combining all the existing information in one book.

If your so against the book why even post in this thread. It makes no sense.

[Shark_Force]

actually, in terms of expressing your opinion on whether or not (including the not) you want a crazy sourcebook, this is probably the best thread. it's the best for it because it keeps them all together. also, it's perfectly reasonable to not specifically not want one; pretty much every single book that palladium publishes has the same pipeline to get through, and the major point in that pipeline where *everything* gets stuck is at kevin, because he apparently hasn't ever heard of the word 'delegate'. so every book that a given person has no interest in but which is being published anyways is a book that is getting in the way of other books they would like to see published. this isn't like WotC where you can expect multiple books to come out in a month and they have the staff to consistently pull that off, so when you propose a book that i (or anyone else) has absolutely zero interest in, it actually has a negative impact on me if that book does in fact get placed in the pipeline.

i mean, i might be vaguely interested in a crazy sourcebook. but i wouldn't be anywhere near as interested in a crazy sourcebook as i would be in, say, a lazlo sourcebook.

[DBX]

This may already have been mentioned before in this topic but i didn't spot it when i did a quick scan of this topic. there is an official symbiote crazy in one of the rifters - killcrazy ( i think). i am not sure if it has M.O.M implants, but it was meant to be one of the bioborgs left out of the sdm book

[Sureshot]

They would not have to reprint the content. All they would have to do is write a small section and point to where the Crazy occs are located. It saves on reprints and advertises other products. For skills and tech all you need is the GM sourcebook (at work cannot rememeber the title.

Want I want to see is not reprints. More information on their culture and possibly new variants. Unlike Juicers who we have a good idea of the lifestyle and culture we know very little of Crazy beyond just bering well Crazy. It does not even have to be a large book. And its not like the JU had that much new material beyond the new Juicer OCC and their culture. A lot of the occs were Juicer added with something else like Juicer assassin and Juicer Scout. Plus some new forms of tech of all kinds. And while you RS may not buy a book like that PB has proven that a large chunk of their fanbase want new toys and Occs. Look at their latest releases how much is actual story and how much is just new equipement and tech.

[Sureshot]

Because this is an open forum and I have something to say about the topic? How is this a difficult concept to grasp?

Just because it is an open forum does not your obliged to post in every thread you see. I rather this thread be more positive and less negative. You dont want to see a new Crazy sourcebook fine. Try not to rain on everyone parade. How about putting the same energy into a starting a thread about not seeing another Minion War type saga. If anything that is something the company does not need with the backlog of books

There's a lot about Rifts that hasn't changed very much in 20 years. I'm not sure adding a new insanity table and some more higher-level skills is really justification for a new book.

I think your missing the point. It is more than just more skills and an updated insanity table. It to take what I at least consider to be a one dimensonal class and add so perosnality to it. Beyond " I am nuts and I have knobs on my head fear me". I used to think the same of Juicers before JU. With that book Juicers are more than hyped up over active drug addicts with a sucidal attraction to thrill seeking. It made them three dimensonal. Sure I like a good backstory like the next guy but you know imo of you removed the backstory from the JU book it would still imo be a decent book.

[Shark_Force]

Because this is an open forum and I have something to say about the topic? How is this a difficult concept to grasp?

Just because it is an open forum does not your obliged to post in every thread you see. I rather this thread be more positive and less negative. You dont want to see a new Crazy sourcebook fine. Try not to rain on everyone parade. How about putting the same energy into a starting a thread about not seeing another Minion War type saga. If anything that is something the company does not need with the backlog of books

There's a lot about Rifts that hasn't changed very much in 20 years. I'm not sure adding a new insanity table and some more higher-level skills is really justification for a new book.

I think your missing the point. It is more than just more skills and an updated insanity table. It to take what I at least consider to be a one dimensonal class and add so perosnality to it. Beyond " I am nuts and I have knobs on my head fear me". I used to think the same of Juicers before JU. With that book Juicers are more than hyped up over active drug addicts with a sucidal attraction to thrill seeking. It made them three dimensonal. Sure I like a good backstory like the next guy but you know imo of you removed the backstory from the JU book it would still imo be a decent book.

but it is an open forum, and that means he is entitled to have his say, and there is not really any logical reason he should be exiled from making his point in this thread when his point is entirely relevant to this thread.

[Sureshot]

but it is an open forum, and that means he is entitled to have his say, and there is not really any logical reason he should be exiled from making his point in this thread when his point is entirely relevant to this thread.

True but I repeat you don't have to post in a thread. It would be like me going to a vegan open forum and posting the merits of meat. Sure I can hide behind the open forum defence yet I would still look like a douche for posting about meat on a vegan only forum. And to be honest I rather see more on how we can see getting the book in print rather than don't bother it won't work or sell.

[MikelAmroni]

The reason the Juicer Uprising book worked was not because it expanded the Juicer. It worked because it was a very OCC specific world event that allowed for the expansion of the OCC. If you're design goal for a book is to "expand the OCC" you will fail (case in point - Cyberknights). Even the bionics book is pretty much a bunch of reprints with a few add ons (worthy add ons, but only add ons)

Gotta disagree there.
Several members of our group bought JU, and we never once used the setting/plot stuff inside that book.
The world event wasn't a draw for anybody I know.
Sure, motivation will vary a bit by group, but I'm betting that new OCC info and toys was the big draw.
For that matter, the book with the CKs in it is more of an example of a failed plotline (SoT) where one book is more likely to be owned just for the OCC info.

And that may be the case, but I've never used any of the OCCs out of the book, but I have used the world events multiple times, and the equipment and skills even more. For me the big attraction was showing why someone would actually choose to die in five years (give or take). While that would have made a VERY interesting Rifter Article, in the context of the larger book, it made perfect sense. And I think that is my own reservation. if its just expanding the Crazy OCC, you can do that quite effectively in the Rifter, and even have it be official material. A World Book means you actually have a plot and interaction with the world at large (Which JU did).

I think your missing the point. It is more than just more skills and an updated insanity table. It to take what I at least consider to be a one dimensonal class and add so perosnality to it. Beyond " I am nuts and I have knobs on my head fear me". I used to think the same of Juicers before JU. With that book Juicers are more than hyped up over active drug addicts with a sucidal attraction to thrill seeking. It made them three dimensonal. Sure I like a good backstory like the next guy but you know imo of you removed the backstory from the JU book it would still imo be a decent book.

I am going to disagree there. What made Juicer Uprisings relevant was that it directly tied to the overall plot going on (it was one of the big events that foreshadowed the CS War Campaign and eventually the Tolkeen War), and added options for others to use (the juicer organizations), as well as new juicer options, and equipment for dealing with M&Ms in general.

[Shark_Force]

but it is an open forum, and that means he is entitled to have his say, and there is not really any logical reason he should be exiled from making his point in this thread when his point is entirely relevant to this thread.

True but I repeat you don't have to post in a thread. It would be like me going to a vegan open forum and posting the merits of meat. Sure I can hide behind the open forum defence yet I would still look like a douche for posting about meat on a vegan only forum. And to be honest I rather see more on how we can see getting the book in print rather than don't bother it won't work or sell.

no, it really wouldn't. because this isn't a "people who want a crazy sourcebook only" forum. heck, it isn't even a "people who want a crazy sourcebook only" thread. having started a thread does not entitle you to have everyone who posts in that thread be forced to agree with you. such a concept flies in the face of the entire purpose of posting in an open forum. if you want people to mindlessly agree with you all the time, you may find you get better results by using robots that are programmed to only ever agree with you, instead of trying to get that kind of behaviour from actual human beings (note: being rich and hiring a bunch of yes-men can also help obtain the desired results). going to a vegan forum and bashing on the vegan lifestyle would be trolling. going to a rifts forum and disagreeing with a person in a given thread on something that is completely on-topic? i don't see why that would be a problem.

frankly, i'm inclined to disagree... i haven't really heard much of anything that makes me thing a full-on sourcebook is needed. an article in the rifter, sure. i could even see this becoming a decently large article in the rifter, if written sufficiently well to keep the whole thing interesting and usable rather than just rambling. but you've got a long way to go to convince me that this subject really needs even a small book to itself... that's a lot of information. i'm not entirely certain you really fully grasp just how much RPG information you can cram into that much writing. if PB did mini-releases of books that were 20 pages or so as PDFs, no problem. a full sourcebook or world book? i just don't see the need for that much information on the subject.

[Sureshot]

no, it really wouldn't. because this isn't a "people who want a crazy sourcebook only" forum. heck, it isn't even a "people who want a crazy sourcebook only" thread. having started a thread does not entitle you to have everyone who posts in that thread be forced to agree with you. such a concept flies in the face of the entire purpose of posting in an open forum. if you want people to mindlessly agree with you all the time, you may find you get better results by using robots that are programmed to only ever agree with you, instead of trying to get that kind of behaviour from actual human beings (note: being rich and hiring a bunch of yes-men can also help obtain the desired results). going to a vegan forum and bashing on the vegan lifestyle would be trolling. going to a rifts forum and disagreeing with a person in a given thread on something that is completely on-topic? i don't see why that would be a problem.

Let me tell you I started a thread in another section of this forum asking for suggestions on running a Kingmaker campaign I asked posters no to badmouth the game. What did one poster do. He insults the game by referring to it in a deragotory manner. He then tried to pass it off as a mistake when I was very clear about it. When asked to actually respond to the topic pretty much ignored it. While I do not expect people to be robots and respond to threads the way I want them to I do epxect them to at least follow the thread. If I start a thread "what don;t you like about Rifts" and tell you to not respond by inuslting the game and the first thing you do is insult it well to me it's a lack of respect for the poster and poor internet etiquette. Sure a person can hide behind the open forum copout while politely telling me "screw you I do what I want" well don;t be surprised if a mod pays you a visit.

You want to post what you want in a thread even when asked not to more power to you. I will not hesitate to report you to a Mod without a single nanosecond of regret. My take is this if you enter a thread with an open mind then disagree with the thread. That I can understand and respect. If your already entering a thread and already disagreeing with it from the get go why bother posting in it. Seems like a waste of time if your mind is already made up about a subject.

[Sureshot]

Good work Paxmiles I like it. How about a varaint crazy OCC where the Crazy while not being as powerful as the regular one stays relatively saner than the usual one. Either something went wrong with the implants ot just an usually strong minded indivdual. Whilew also being looked down upon by "nornal" Crazies as being too weak and too normal while not being trusted by others as who knows when and if the "sane" Crazie will snap and revert back to being the usual kind. Not sure if you can do a Mega Juicer version of the Crazie. Imo would be unplayable and more an NPC. How about also expanding on the culture of Crazies. Also adding some unique vehicles for Crazies too eventually.

[Killer Cyborg]

I've never used any of the OCCs out of the book, but I have used the world events multiple times, and the equipment and skills even more.

Ask around; you're in the minority.
That doesn't change the validity of how you used the book, but it does comment on what a book "should" have in it.

A World Book means you actually have a plot and interaction with the world at large (Which JU did).

Please let me know what the plots are in the following world books:
Vampire Kingdoms
Atlantis
England
Triax & the NGR
South America
Underseas
Japan
South America 2
Psyscape
Lonestar
New West
Spirit West
Federation of Magic
Warlords of Russia
Mystic Russia
Australia
Canada
Splynn Dimensional Market
Free Quebec
The Xixticix Kingdoms
China
China 2
Dinosaur Swamps
Arzno
Madhaven

Some of those might have obvious plots that I missed simply because I never read those particular books (Russia, Mystic Russia, China 1 & 2), but all the rest just seem like snapshots of the current situation in that part of the world with some background information.
Which is all that a world book should be.

[Killer Cyborg]

i haven't really heard much of anything that makes me thing a full-on sourcebook is needed. an article in the rifter, sure. i could even see this becoming a decently large article in the rifter, if written sufficiently well to keep the whole thing interesting and usable rather than just rambling. but you've got a long way to go to convince me that this subject really needs even a small book to itself... that's a lot of information. i'm not entirely certain you really fully grasp just how much RPG information you can cram into that much writing. if PB did mini-releases of books that were 20 pages or so as PDFs, no problem. a full sourcebook or world book? i just don't see the need for that much information on the subject.

I could fill 20 pages with new gear and wetware alone.
Not to mention new skills, roleplaying tips, and all the other stuff we've gone over here.

[Shark_Force]

You want to post what you want in a thread even when asked not to more power to you. I will not hesitate to report you to a Mod without a single nanosecond of regret. My take is this if you enter a thread with an open mind then disagree with the thread. That I can understand and respect. If your already entering a thread and already disagreeing with it from the get go why bother posting in it. Seems like a waste of time if your mind is already made up about a subject.

feel free. "worship the almight powers of the original poster" is not one of the forum rules, so i'm not terribly worried about it. i didn't call anyone names, i didn't insult anyone's intelligence, and so far as i can tell, i haven't even been accused of breaking any actual forum rules that really exist.

it's an open forum. the intent is that people express their opinion. I'm expressing my opinion that i don't think such a book is necessary, and that i don't think there's enough material to warrant an entire book on the subject. I've yet to see anything yet that has persuaded me otherwise. this doesn't necessarily mean that i am right, but neither does it mean that i am wrong. and i'm still not seeing how stating my opinion on the premise of the thread is not relevant. the thread is entitled "crazy occ really needs a juice uprising style book", and my opinion on that subject is "i'm not convinced that it needs that at all". this doesn't mean i *couldn't* be convinced... if anyone had asked me if i thought nightbane or splicers would have been good ideas, i doubt i'd have been sold on them, but now that i've had some time to take a closer look at them i really like the settings. i still don't feel any interest in the dead reign series, but that doesn't mean i couldn't be made to feel interest. and i simply can't get myself feeling excited about the minion war. but again, this doesn't mean that i *couldn't* be interested. it *does* mean that i haven't yet seen anything that has really piqued my interest, nothing that has made me acknowledge that this book really needs to be made. on the other hand, some of the other books that we know are being written, or which have been suggested, i'm confident those books would really be something that would add to the world.

i see all this stuff you're talking about, and i think of some of the ~20 page gaming PDFs i've read, and my inclination is that you've pretty much got enough that you could fill such a PDF with interesting material. sure, you could just keep cramming random material in there to pad it out, but that either dilutes the "crazy book" aspect of it, or it just makes the product overall less valuable to me; i'd much rather have 20 pages of good material than 20 pages of good material interspersed between 100 pages of filler material that was added just to make something book-sized. i mean, i could probably write a 120-page book about the theoretical impact the xiticix would have on the ecology of flying squirrels in the appalachians, doesn't mean it's got enough useful material to justify a 120-page book though.

[Sureshot]

At this point I am not going to respond to either Rogue_Scientist or Shark-Force anymore. If you want to contribute to the thread in adding content to a possible sourcebook go right ahead. If not I ask you to stop posting in this thread. Your not adding anything to it. And for the record I do not run to the mods at the slightest negative thing said in one of my threads. Its when a posters delbrately ignores my request to not post a certain and does. Or when a poster refuses to stop an argument. Feel free to continue posting both of you. I am just going to ask those interested in the thread to not respond to you. At least in this thread. I am through trying to convince either of you of the merit of the book. I stand a better chance of smahing a brick wall with my head first.

[Sureshot]

Back to topic. How about an npc class where someone experiments on a Crazy by adding too many impants to the point that they become a psinioc being. Basically someone attempting to use all the brain as oppsoed to the amount a Crazie regualrty uses. And unleashes the total psinic power of the mind. I would call it it an overmind. Not the best name I know. I also was wondering how about trying to add the alien intelligence from Psycape (at work cannot check the name) as being the one through a splintered essence who introduced the Angel of death the idea and creation of the Mindwerks Plague. Without her knowing.

[Mack]

LOCK WARNING.

Discuss the subject, not each other. If you can't do that, don't post.

[Killer Cyborg]

I had a lengthy subplot in my campaign-world where agents of Psyscape got ahold of the tech to make the MOM implants from that book, the ones that give you psychic powers, and started mass-producing them for sale in the black market.
Because the more psychics there are, the more people there are to oppose Nxla.

[Dustin Fireblade]

So far, the list of Crazy OCC/RCCs is as follows:

1: Standard Crazy OCC (RUE)
-"normal" crazy

2: Psynetic Crazy OCC (Mindwerks)
-This is the psychic crazy

3: Mutant Crazy (Vague rules mentioned in Mutants in Orbit, Yuro Station)
-A "normal" crazy with a less than human as the species

4: Wired Gunslinger OCC (New West)
-Pistol focused Crazy

5: Ultra Crazy/TW Crazy OCC (South America 2)
-MDC creature crazy

6: Ninja Crazy OCC (Japan)
-Infiltrator and espionage focused Crazy. Also has less insanities than standard crazy.

7: Lightning Warrior OCC (China 2)
-Demon hunting crazy

Others worthy of mention:

Mindwerks Full conversion borg OCC, null psy-borg OCC, and ecto-traveler OCC.
-these all have insanities relating to the MOM implants in their systems.

-Pax

Well not from Rifts, but in the Powers Unlimited 2 book, under the Super-Soldier category you can get a "Brain Implant Augmentation" rather than super-powers. You pretty much become a Rifts Crazy type OCC.

There's also an option under the "special supersoldier enhancement table" for what they call 'Bionic Implants' that give improved physical abilities not unlike a Crazy (not as great) with the side effect of suffering from headaches all the time. Personally I'd use this as an option for the CS experiments from Lone Star.

[Killer Cyborg]

And there's the Psi-Borg from VK.
He was a one-shot NPC, but there could be an assumption of MOM tech involved there.

[Sureshot]

VK? Do you mean Vilians Unlimited?

[Killer Cyborg]

VK? Do you mean Vilians Unlimited?

Vampire Kingdoms.
He was one of the circus performers.

[Sureshot]

Vampire Kingdoms.
He was one of the circus performers.

Man the long shifts at work are getting to me. How did I miss what VK meant.

[grandmaster z0b]

There's also the Delphi Juicer which uses Mindwerks MOM implants.

Although personally I find it to be one of the worst OCCs in that book; the premise that a technician from Mindwerks was able to just sneak away and then that not only did he create a better system than the original implants but he was able to attach them to Juicers to essentially create a Juicer with Psychic powers not far off a Mind Melter with very little drawback?

[Daniel Stoker]

I've been supporting this idea for years now and I like some of the idea here, though personally my main incentive would be to see a new insanity table which we desperately need.


Daniel Stoker

[Killer Cyborg]

Vampire Kingdoms.
He was one of the circus performers.

Man the long shifts at work are getting to me. How did I miss what VK meant.

More importantly, why are you talking to yourself there...?