Number of magic tattoo's

[Long Shadow]

I've always assumed that it was a general rule since the T-men are slaves and it's a nice structured way of helping level a character. The blurb about run-away slaves having additional tattoos to start with shies away from the X number of tattos per level being a power-level restriction and more with a rank advancement.

[Nekira Sudacne]

They cannot get more than teh stated limit per level. Remember mystic tattoos arn't just knowlage and learning how to manipulate your PPE in new ways, magic tattoos bind themselves to your PPE Essence and FORCE it into the appropriate patterns. It's litterally hardcoding the "spell" into your very being. this is an extremely tramatic thing and why the penalties for getting it are so horribly crippling. You cannot bind more than 2 basic weapon tattoos or one power tattoo at a time because the trama is just too intense. you COULD, I suppose, the problem is you would DIE. You ALMOST die as it is, hence the horrible wracking agony. This is why T-Men go INSANE.

For slaves, it's a reflection of their masters selfishness, wanting a powerful warrior without concern for the side effects.

For Undead Slayers, it's a mark of their willing sacrafise, to give up much the magic knowlage that is their kinds birthright and much of their life in willing presuit of fighting mankinds ancentral nemisis and evil in general. This change in perspective as well as the mandatory ME 20 to endure it is why they don't have insanities, but that dosn't make the experiance any less tramatic or dangerous, merely easially endured.

[cornholioprime]

another odd question, in the books it states that you gain 1-2 magic tatoo's per level and there is a 6 month waiting period between them... BUT heres my question

Is it possible to get tattoo's when you dont level, like how a layline walker can learn spells
... I cannot physically see why you couldn't other than you're supplier saying "no... bad t-man... wait!" I mean cyberknights can gain them, they dont have to level (granted to a total of 6) so shouldnt a T-Man be able too?

No.

The same way that a Mystic can't learn Spells no matter how good the Master of Magic is who wants to train them between levels.

Like the Mystic, I for one strongly suspect that the limitations are put in place as a Game Balance issue -namely, they don't want the potential of 1st level Tattooed Men with 60 tats running around the place.

You want the "fun" of playing a Tattooed Man, you pay the "price" of being restricted to how many more Tats you can get at a time (a small price to pay, really, for a guy who can cast his spells in ways and with the ease that true mages can only dream of).

[Joey Jo Jo Jr]

In the Splynn WB you can purchase new tattoos. From a High Lord......

[cornholioprime]

In the Splynn WB you can purchase new tattoos. From a High Lord......

You can, of course, purchase New Tattoos at any time.

You just can't put them on at any time; raw materials (in this case Magic Tattoos) are one thing, and the O.C.C./R.C.C. requirements for putting on successive tats are quite another.

EDIT/ADDENDUM: In this case, you are limited to EXACTLY two Tattoos per level after the first, maximum -and that's if the Tattoos that you are getting are simple ones (you can only get one Major tattoo per level). See Rifts: Atlantis, page 97.

If, by some strange series of adventures and massive gains in experience you gain another level in a very short period of time, then that is where the 6-month limitation kicks in; if you've already gotten your 1 or 2 additional Tattoos for your current level then you could wait the next six years let alone six months, and you still can't get new tats until you level up.

If you buy a Sidewinder SAMAS off the Black Market, does that mean that you automatically know how to pilot it?

[Mouser13]

Yes, the second alantis books goes into cost of adding additional tatoo's to slaves. The problem would be to find someone to do them if you are not a slave.

[cornholioprime]

Yes, the second alantis books goes into cost of adding additional tatoo's to slaves. The problem would be to find someone to do them if you are not a slave.

Please expand upon this statement, with links to whatever you are arguing.

It is hard to tell who you are talking to, or who you are either agreeing or disagreeing with.

[Mallak's Place]

We have always played Magic Tatoos like this. You can get upto 6 tatoos without changing OCC. once you get the 7th you have to change to a Tatoo-Man class (just like you need to change classes when you become a full cyborg, get 3 or more MOM implants, or having 4 or more Bio-Wizard enhancments). Once you become a T-man you can have upto the maximum number of tatoos a T-man of 1st level can get. after that any new tatoos can only be aquired after sufficent level has been gained.

[cornholioprime]

We have always played Magic Tatoos like this. You can get upto 6 tatoos without changing OCC. once you get the 7th you have to change to a Tatoo-Man class (just like you need to change classes when you become a full cyborg, get 3 or more MOM implants, or having 4 or more Bio-Wizard enhancments). Once you become a T-man you can have upto the maximum number of tatoos a T-man of 1st level can get. after that any new tatoos can only be aquired after sufficent level has been gained.

That's pretty cool.

Get a whole bunch of levels as Something Else that won't be be negated by having Magic Tattoos -Man-At-Arms OCC, for example -THEN go T-Man.

Kickass!!!

(Would you still let me keep my Warrior Skills in that case, or would you GM House-Rule that somehow the Tats wipe my memory of my old life?? )

[Mallak's Place]

We have always played Magic Tatoos like this. You can get upto 6 tattoos without changing OCC. once you get the 7th you have to change to a Tattoo-Man class (just like you need to change classes when you become a full cyborg, get 3 or more MOM implants, or having 4 or more Bio-Wizard enhancments). Once you become a T-man you can have upto the maximum number of tattoos a T-man of 1st level can get. after that any new tattoos can only be aquired after sufficent level has been gained.

That's pretty cool.

Get a whole bunch of levels as Something Else that won't be be negated by having Magic Tattoos -Man-At-Arms OCC, for example -THEN go T-Man.

Kickass!!!

(Would you still let me keep my Warrior Skills in that case, or would you GM House-Rule that somehow the Tats wipe my memory of my old life?? )

Sure you could do that but you would then have to follow our groups rules on multi-classing
* your old class would permanently drop one level including all benefits gained from that level, except newly learned skills which would be at zero level (if you were not a man-at -arms class your old class would drop 1 level for every level in T-man you gained unless you paid double xp, old class skill percentages would then drop by its +%/level below its base success after the old class reached zero, unless your old class was a Adventurer/Scholar OCC then the old class would stop dropping once it reached zero)
* your base SDC, PPE, and ISP (if a psychic class) would be the average of the 2 (or more) classes that you have... In this case the PPE would be calculated before the addition of any PPE gained from tattoos

[drewkitty ~..~]

another odd question, in the books it states that you gain 1-2 magic tattoos per level and there is a 6 month waiting period between them... BUT heres my question

Is it possible to get tattoo's when you don't level, like how a leyline walker can learn spells
... I cannot physically see why you couldn't other than you're supplier saying "no... bad t-man... wait!" I mean cyberknights can gain them, they don't have to level (granted to a total of 6) so shouldn't a T-Man be able too?

Each T-man says that the masters or clan elders give them out as the slave/clan member reaches a new level. These are according to the decisions of the slave's masters or the clan member's elder decision that they have passed to the new level, but also if the T-man is under a punishment or injunction the slave masters and clan elders can with hold the addition of new magic tattoos.

The most tattoos any T-man, even an undead slayer, can get at any time is two (2). There must be at least six months between the acquisition of another pair of tattoos.

The six month waiting period for each pair is the only hard and fast limitation to the number of magic tattoos a char can have.

So if the T-man should be granted a boon from a tattoo master other than their master or clan elder, and it has been more then 6 months from the last time they got a pair of Tattoos, they could recieve the boon as one or two Tattoos. However, they would have to wait at least six months from then till they could get another pair of tattoos. But when they went in for their "level up" tattoos from their master or clan elder, the tattoos that they got "elsewhere" will cause 'questions' to be asked, and the possibility of the "level up tattoos" being withheld due to you char already has a new pair of tattoos.

[cornholioprime]

The most tattoos any T-man, even an undead slayer, can get at any time is two (2). There must be at least six months between the acquisition of another pair of tattoos.

The six month waiting period for each pair is the only hard and fast limitation to the number of magic tattoos a char can have.

So if the T-man should be granted a boon from a tattoo master other than their master or clan elder, and it has been more then 6 months from the last time they got a pair of Tattoos, they could recieve the boon as one or two Tattoos. However, they would have to wait at least six months from then till they could get another pair of tattoos. But when they went in for their "level up" tattoos from their master or clan elder, the tattoos that they got "elsewhere" will cause 'questions' to be asked, and the possibility of the "level up tattoos" being withheld due to you char already has a new pair of tattoos.

Disagreement.

The Article on Tattooed Men makes it clear that "at a time" applies to achieving a new level.

Rifts: Atlantis, page 94:

"With each new level of experience -starting at level two [emphasis mine] -his master......will add two more simple tattoos or one major tattoo...

..and the first paragraph clarifies the next one immediately following it...

Rifts: Atlantis, page 94
"..The most tattoos any T-man, even a Maxi-Man, can get at any one time is two....."

So.....if the character, for whatever reason, gains a lot of XP and gain another level in a very short time, they must still wait at least 6 months to get their next two. But if they have already gained a level, no amount of passage of time is sufficient for them to get another two tattoos; they must first level up once again.

On the other hand, this means that if for whatever reason a T-Man or Maxi-Man or any other Tattoo Magic O.C.C. variant escapes out into the world from slavery, OR if they were sent, and they spend years and years out there gaining a ton of levels without new Tats, he can get as many as 2 for each of those levels he gained in the meantime..........provided he waits six months between Tattoo Sessions for each group of 1-2 Tattoos -and provided he can find another Tattoo Master to apply them in the first place.


Tattooed Man NPCs in the Books -including but not limited to

Max the Undead Slayer (Rifts: Splynn Dimensional Market; 14th level, 33 tattoos);
Ares the Renegade (Pantheons of the Megaverse; 8th level, 19 tattoos)
NOTE: These are the only two Tattooed Men NPCs that I can think of off the top of my head; other people who know of other examples can bring them forth for comparison.

They both seemingly conform to the formula of "at least six months between applications but only 1-2 Tats per level;" even Max, the 'best' of the bunch (since he was never a slave and can presumably get more tats from his Clan whenever he wants IF it were true that T-Men could get pretty much as many Tats as they want, just wait 6 months), doesn't stray from this formula.

[cornholioprime]

The most tattoos any T-man, even an undead slayer, can get at any time is two (2). There must be at least six months between the acquisition of another pair of tattoos.

The six month waiting period for each pair is the only hard and fast limitation to the number of magic tattoos a char can have.

So if the T-man should be granted a boon from a tattoo master other than their master or clan elder, and it has been more then 6 months from the last time they got a pair of Tattoos, they could recieve the boon as one or two Tattoos. However, they would have to wait at least six months from then till they could get another pair of tattoos. But when they went in for their "level up" tattoos from their master or clan elder, the tattoos that they got "elsewhere" will cause 'questions' to be asked, and the possibility of the "level up tattoos" being withheld due to you char already has a new pair of tattoos.

Disagreement.

The Article on Tattooed Men makes it clear that "at a time" applies to achieving a new level.

Rifts: Atlantis, page 94:

"With each new level of experience -starting at level two [emphasis mine] -his master......will add two more simple tattoos or one major tattoo...

..and the first paragraph clarifies the next one immediately following it...

Rifts: Atlantis, page 94
"..The most tattoos any T-man, even a Maxi-Man, can get at any one time is two....."

So.....if the character, for whatever reason, gains a lot of XP and gain another level in a very short time, they must still wait at least 6 months to get their next two. But if they have already gained a level, no amount of passage of time is sufficient for them to get another two tattoos; they must first level up once again.

On the other hand, this means that if for whatever reason a T-Man or Maxi-Man or any other Tattoo Magic O.C.C. variant escapes out into the world from slavery, OR if they were sent, and they spend years and years out there gaining a ton of levels without new Tats, he can get as many as 2 for each of those levels he gained in the meantime..........provided he waits six months between Tattoo Sessions for each group of 1-2 Tattoos -and provided he can find another Tattoo Master to apply them in the first place.


Tattooed Man NPCs in the Books -including but not limited to

Max the Undead Slayer (Rifts: Splynn Dimensional Market; 14th level, 33 tattoos);
Ares the Renegade (Pantheons of the Megaverse; 8th level, 19 tattoos)
NOTE: These are the only two Tattooed Men NPCs that I can think of off the top of my head; other people who know of other examples can bring them forth for comparison.

They both seemingly conform to the formula of "at least six months between applications but only 1-2 Tats per level;" even Max, the 'best' of the bunch (since he was never a slave and can presumably get more tats from his Clan whenever he wants IF it were true that T-Men could get pretty much as many Tats as they want, just wait 6 months), doesn't stray from this formula.

see what I have highlighted in red states that you can gain tattoo's every level BUT (and its a very big but) Neither of them explicitly say that this is the only time that they can get tattoo's, they simply state that you do get some when you level, it doesn't say "you cant get them other than when you level" and it also states that you get have to wait 6 months, it doesnt say you have to have leveled up in those six months to gain more

I understand the structural ambiguity of the sentence, which is why I went to other sources to give you a more definitive answer.

Why you are almost certainly limited to a maximum of 2 Magic Tattoos per level, and no more:

1. The NPCs. The Authors' NPC creations are typically the most extreme examples of what is possible, and game-legal, for that OCC/RCC to achieve; Lord Dunscon, for example, has over 1400 P.P.E. even though he is little more than a Witch with a Major Pact (which just happens to include Conditional Immortality).
   
   And NONE of the Books' NPC Tattooed Men (or Tattoo Masters) breaks the 'rule' of 'no more than 2 tattoos, maximum, per level.
   
   Not Max the Undead Slayer in Rifts: Splynn Dimensional Market.
   Not Ares the Renegade in Pantheons of the Megaverse.
   Not any of the Elytherian Atlanteans in Rifts: Dinosaur Swamp.
   Not the Maxi-Man Ogre in Rifts: Mercenaries.
   Not Khem, the leader of Revenge Squad Ragnarok in Rifts: Firetown and the Tolkeen Crisis.
   
   Not even the two most famous Chiang-Ku Dragons in Rifts, Rama-Set and Fang-Lo (Rifts: Africa), break the rule. And in addition to having Magic Tattoos of their own, these last two examples are also Tattoo Masters capable of placing even more of these Tattoos on their bodies at any time -that is, if the "only X tattoos per level, maximum" limitation weren't applicable. (Especially the power-mad, power-hungry, and already insane Rama-Set.)
   
2. The traditional penchant of the Authors to limit "munchkinnery." From what you've seen with how historically stingy the Authors are with Ammunition, the Healing Power of Spells, Magic Shield/Force Field protective capability, PPE, ISP, and almost everything else......does it not seem as if the LAST thing that these guys would have wanted for the T-Men OCCs, especially in those early, low-powered-by-todays-Rifts-standards Books, is an OCC that essentially could just sit around all day doing nothing (in terms of gathering XP anyway), just waiting for 6 months to pass, and packing his or her body with as many Tats as can be placed on their body over time -which would also produce a super-overpowered OCC (in terms of PPE and MDC) before the character ever even got past Level Two?
   
3. There are NO provisions stated in ANY Book that rewards even the most loyal/effective T-Men with more tattoos more quickly than on a per level basis. NONE of the T-Man NPCs, regardless of professionalism, loyalty, or even connections to powerful Tattoo Master allies, have been stated to have received extra Tattoos for their service. Nor is such a reward listed as a possible canon reward for GMs to give to exceptionally-skilled players.
   
   And to restate what was said before: even the known Chiang-Ku Tattooed "Men" in the Books, most of them Tattoo Masters in their own right, don't break the rule, not even the most evil and insane and power-mad members of the species.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Let me point out that all the limitations about level up tattoos are about tattoos "From their master" or 'From their clan elder".

The Only thing limiting someone from getting tattoos from tattoos masters that are not {"From their master" or 'From their clan elder"} is the six month waiting period between pairs of magic tattoos.

[cornholioprime]

Let me point out that all the level up limitations are about tattoos "From their master" or 'From their clan elder".

The Only thing limiting someone from getting tattoos from tattoos masters that are not {"From their master" or 'From their clan elder"} is the six month waiting period between pairs of magic tattoos.

If that were the case, then as is the case with anything else, then at SOME point in SOME book, either some author would have made mention of "Extra Tattoos for Faithful Service," or SOME author in SOME book would have created an NPC who would have had mention of being awarded those extra Tattoos.

I don't at all mind if you find contradictory evidence to what I have presented....but I honestly request that you at least provide something evidential to the contrary.

And I think that my point about Rama-Set, the Tattooed Chiang-Ku Master having only a limited number of tats remains one of the strongest arguments in favor of the "Two Tats, maximum, per Level of Experience" view of Tattoo Acquisition.

Rama-Set IS his own Clan Leader and Clan Elder where creating new Tattoos is concerned (as is Fang Lo, but it's understandable why he as a Monk might want to limit what is on his own body). So why does even Rama-Set have a relatively small number of tattoos that seemingly adhere to the 1-2 tats/level limit?


EDIT/ADDITION: Note that, in Rifts: England, even the Chiang-Ku Tattooed "man" -Tattoo Master or otherwise -is also limited to what they can give themselves per level (or in their case, levels). So even if these masters of Tattoo Magic and the very creators of same are limited, then why not a humanoid recipient??

[drewkitty ~..~]

I presented my evidence to the minimum limitations on how quickly anyone can get new tattoos. (See the quote from the Atlantis book.)

Any extra tattoos would come under the heading "GM discresion"and "Game Play", so would not fall under any 'book rule'.

And, the only thing I would be conflicting with you is when you use the word 'Only' when you say something like 'they only get new tattoos at their level ups.' in reference to the tattooed men classes.

While yes, that is when they Normally get new tattoos. That is not the Only time they Can get new tattoos.

Of course they are going to write the classes so to give GM's ammunition to Limit Munchkins from turning their chars into powerhouses.

[cornholioprime]

I presented my evidence to the minimum limitations on how quickly anyone can get new tattoos. (See the quote from the Atlantis book.)

No, you presented a quote from a logically and structurally vague paragraph which can be interpreted any number of ways....which forces us all to look elsewhere for evidence no matter which side of the 'argument' we're on.

Any extra tattoos would come under the heading "GM discresion"and "Game Play", so would not fall under any 'book rule'.

And yet, repeatedly in the history of the Books, when there are conditions whereby exceptional service can be rewarded by extra [fill-in-the-blanks], the Authors have not hesitated to say so.

But in the case of Magic Tattoos, they never, ever say in any book that Loyal Minions can get awarded extra....and they never instruct the GMs to award extra tattoos between levels to good players, either.

When we can't get a definitive, set-in-stone statement from the authors, we are forced to go on circumstantial evidence; and in this case, the fact that "Extra Tattoos for Exemplary Service" are NEVER mentioned in any book, where 'extra rewards for good playing' bonuses are replete throughout the books, is a strong circumstantial argument in favor of T-men being 'locked out' of any more than 1-2 Tattoos per level of experience, maximum.

And, the only thing I would be conflicting with you is when you use the word 'Only' when you say something like 'they only get new tattoos at their level ups.' in reference to the tattooed men classes.
While yes, that is when they Normally get new tattoos. That is not the Only time they Can get new tattoos.

I say "only" because the only circumstantial evidence that we have, lends itself to that argument.

We have a rather badly-worded paragraph, and so we must find other sources of information; in this case, just sticking by the paragraph alone isn't enough. Again, if you can find some info to the opposite, the answer will change. But right now, I would say, the available evidence seems to go against you.

:wink: Of course they are going to write the classes so to give GM's ammunition to Limit Munchkins from turning their chars into powerhouses.

Typically, NPCs are writen up as powerhouse examples of their respective RCCs/OCCs.

However, NONE of the NPC T-Men (and by the way, this includes Slither, the Maxi-Man from Rifts Dimension Book Three: Phase World Sourcebook, who I just remembered), in ANY book, break the formula.

If I could find you so much as a single NPC whose Tattoo numbers and character level didn't follow the formula, then I would gladly tell you the opposite; I'm not interested in an Internet Win.

Not even C.J. Carella's known NPC T-Men, who are almost invariably at or near the maximums for those OCC/RCCs like virtually any NPC he ever created, breaks the formula.

So let's do a recap of what we know so far:

1. No mention of either loyal or outstanding NPCs being given extra tattoos between levels by grateful Masters in any book.
2. No out-of-game mention or direction for GMs to give their own players extra Tattoos between levels.
3. A series of NPC Tattooed Men of various types, in Books written by authors as diverse as C.J. Carella (Pantheons of the Megaverse and Rifts: Mercenaries), Mark Sumimoto (Rifts: Splynn Dimensional Market), Carl Gleba (Rifts Dimension Book Six: The Three Galaxies), Tood Yoho (Rifts: Adventures in Dinosaur Swamp), and of course Kevin Siembieda himself (Rifts: Atlantis, Rifts: Africa and Rifts: England), none of whose NPCs have tattoos in sufficient numbers to break the formula.
4. The fact that the Authors of the Books typically try to balance out a given OCC beforehand, combined with the fact that IF Tattooed Men could just wait around and scoop up Tats every six months without any other limitations, gathering MDC and PPE in the process, the resulting imbalance of that character compared to other, 'similar' OCCs (is the T-Man a Man At Arms OCC, or a Magic one?) would be something the authors would almost certainly have foreseen and avoided.
5. The fact that even those Chiang-Ku who are Tattoo Masters, and who can make new Tattoos at any time they wished, also don't break the formula.
6. The fact that, in Rifts: England, Chiang-Ku themselves, the undisputed masters of Tattoo Magic and its very creators/originators, are explicitly limited to an even greater degree than humans are (see page 49 of the same book, re: the Chiang-Ku R.C.C.) -which circumstantially and logically leads one to conclude that if even the powerful Chiang-Ku is explicitly limited, then humans can expect to see some limitations in the realm of New Tattoo Acquisition as well.

As I said earlier, I'm not looking for an Internet Win or anything, and I await someone who can come forth with an example of an NPC whose total number of Tattoos for their character level doesn't follow the whole 1-2 Tattoos, or some other information to the contrary.

EDIT: While scrubbing the Rifts: England Book one more time, I also happened upon Sir Prrcyval and Sir Galahad, the former a Chiang-Ku Tattoo Master in disguise, and the latter an Atlantean Undead Slayer.

Neither one of those NPCs broke the formula, either.

And when you have EVERY T-Man in EVERY book follow the same apparent formula, what other objective conclusion can be drawn for what the Authors apparently intended this OCC to do?

[drewkitty ~..~]

I am sorry that is the way you feel.

But a t-man can get magic tattoos from another tattoo master, other then from their master/elder, so long as the six month waiting period has been completed.

I am not saying that they would be able to find a tattoo master during that time. (This is where game play and GM D comes into play. The GM decides if there is a TM to be found or not, and wether or not the TM would emplace new tattoos on the char.)

All I was saying was that after getting a pair of tattoos and waiting the 6 months that they...

...can
....could
...it is possible
... it is physically possible
.... it is safe

to get another pair of magic tattoos.

I am not talking about "Game Mechanics" nor Access to them, just the absolute minimum time between pairs of tattoos, without getting complicated about it.

If you are not seeing that, I don't know how to get the idea across.

BTW, the line I quoted was very specific in what it said. And it was a whole paragraph unto itself.
(note: I have the fourth printing of the Atlantis book)
---------
Some rhetorical questions I will answer myself.

How long does it take to make a L1 T-man? 3 years
How long does it take to make a L1 Maxi-Man? 4.5 years
How long does it take to make a L1 Undead slayer? 4 years
How long does it take to make a L1 Monster Men? 3.5 years
Why does a L1 Undead Slayer with 18 Tattoos takes 1/2 a year less then a L1 Maxi-man with 18 tattoos? They already have 2 'marks of heritage' tattoos to start out with.

[cornholioprime]

I am sorry that is the way you feel.

But a t-man can get magic tattoos from another tattoo master, other then from their master/elder, so long as the six month waiting period has been completed.

I am not saying that they would be able to find a tattoo master during that time. (This is where game play and GM D comes into play. The GM decides if there is a TM to be found or not, and wether or not the TM would emplace new tattoos on the char.)

All I was saying was that after getting a pair of tattoos and waiting the 6 months that they...

...can
....could
...it is possible
... it is physically possible
.... it is safe

to get another pair of magic tattoos.

I am not talking about "Game Mechanics" nor Access to them, just the absolute minimum time between pairs of tattoos, without getting complicated about it.

If you are not seeing that, I don't know how to get the idea across.

BTW, the line I quoted was very specific in what it said. And it was a whole paragraph unto itself.
(note: I have the fourth printing of the Atlantis book)
---------
Some rhetorical questions I will answer myself.

How long does it take to make a L1 T-man? 3 years
How long does it take to make a L1 Maxi-Man? 4.5 years
How long does it take to make a L1 Undead slayer? 4 years
How long does it take to make a L1 Monster Men? 3.5 years
Why does a L1 Undead Slayer with 18 Tattoos takes 1/2 a year less then a L1 Maxi-man with 18 tattoos? They already have 2 'marks of heritage' tattoos to start out with.

You're still just making statements, as opposed to gathering actual evidence.

By the way, even more proof that the formula is "1-2 Tattoos per level, maximum:"

Rifts: Atlantis, page 83:

However, the Elite Maxi-man will have 18 to 48 tattoos depending on the level of experience and the degree of loyal service they have given their masters.

• In the early books, all the way up to today (including Rifts: Ultimate Edition), the Authors usually stop Experience Tables at Level 15 for Player Characters -and Kevin explained why (also in Rifts: Ultimate Edition, I believe) -he believes that in real-world time, 15 levels is plenty of time for real players to have, and it should take years and years of regular gaming with the same PC in order to get that high. I think that some of the only exceptions are long-lived RCCs like Ancient Dragons.
• Look at that sentence in quotes one more time -even the Maxi-man, no matter how loyal he has been to his masters, can get no more than 48 tattoos.
• The Maxi-man starts out with 18 tattoos.
• That leaves a maximum of 30 more he can get, no matter how loyal or useful he might be.
• 15 levels times 1-2 Tattoos per level equals a minimum of 15 and a maximum of 30.
• Therefore, we can determine that, although not clearly stated, that the information that we have thus far indicates that the Authors' intent was indeed to limit the acquisition of new tattoos to a maximum of 2 per level, no matter what.

Now.....would you PLEASE gather some actual, additional information that rebuts what has been presented thus far, instead of just repeating the same structurally-flawed sentences over and over again and expecting those sentences to stand all by themselves??

Everybody who has read or participated in this Thread to date knows what it says by now......but if it were actually 100% clear what was meant (i.e., "The Tattooed Man can ONLY get 2 tattoos per level of experience no matter what" or "The Tattooed Man can get Tattoos every six months, even between levels, for exceptional service and loyalty or if he can find a willing Tattoo Master to give him more"), then the need to go gather proof from additional sources wouldn't even be necessary.
But because the paragraphs aren't clear, just re-stating them all by themselves isn't sufficient proof for your side of the argument and it isn't sufficient proof for my side of the argument.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The thing is, I'm not arguing with you about Your point, the level up tattoos for tattoo men. In which you are correct.

I presented the evidence for My Point, 'what is the absolute minimum time between each pair of tattoos', in my first post.

Found in the T-man OCC. Like with the TA UH this is the whole paragraph.

The number of tattoos any T-man, even a Maxi-Man, can get at any one time is Two. There must be at least six months between the acquisition of another pair of tattoos.

Found in the Maxi-Man OCC

The most tattoos any T-am, even a Maxi-man, can get at any one time is two (2). There must be at least six months between the acquisition of another pair of tattoos.

Already quoted the paragraph from the TA Undead Slayer OCC

From the T-Archer OCC

The most tattoos any T-Man, even a Maxi-man, can get at one time is two (2). There must be at least six months between the acquisition of another pair of tattoos.

From the (true) Atlantean Monster Hunting OCC

The most any tattooed-man can get at any time is two. There must be at least six months between the acquisition of another pair of tattoos.

I'm noticing a pattern here.

• That leaves a maximum of 30 more he can get, no matter how loyal or useful he might be.
• 15 levels times 1-2 Tattoos per level equals a minimum of 15 and a maximum of 30.
• Therefore, we can determine that, although not clearly stated, that the information that we have thus far indicates that the Authors' intent was indeed to limit the acquisition of new tattoos to a maximum of 2 per level, no matter what.

Yes, you are correct that any T-man can not get more then 30 more tattoos through leveling up.

If you might note, I'm being very specific in what I said in the above sentence.

Now what did I leave out of the above line...
[list=][*]Tattoos as grants
[*]Tattoos as Boons
[*]tattoos from paying for them
[*]tattoos put on someone to neutralize their magic powers. (the more then 6 tattoos thing)
[*]tattoos given for the H*** of it
[*]Tattoos given for undisclosed reasons[/list]
In other words, how non-tattooed men get their tattoos.

As to wether or not a T-man's slave master/clan elder with get upset with the T-man for getting tattoos from another Tattoo master, I covered this in my first post. Saying that they might with-hold the normal level up tattoos because they T-man already has them.
So while they might of gotten some tattoos from another Tattoo Master, they would most likely NOT get the next tattoos from their normal supplier. Thus keeping them with in what their normal supplier thinks they should have.
[(Just to be BLUNT about saying it since you refused to see it the first time)i.e.: The slave masters and Clan elders would refuse to give the t-man any more tattoos till he catches up his levels to what the numbers of tattoos he has.]

Remember, Getting Magic Tattoos is contingent on someone else thinking they should give them to the char. Not an automatic thing just for leveling up.

[Carl Gleba]

another odd question, in the books it states that you gain 1-2 magic tattoo's per level and there is a 6 month waiting period between them... BUT heres my question

Is it possible to get tattoo's when you don't level, like how a layline walker can learn spells
... I cannot physically see why you couldn't other than you're supplier saying "no... bad t-man... wait!" I mean cyberknights can gain them, they dont have to level (granted to a total of 6) so shouldnt a T-Man be able too?

Back in the day when we had a few undead slayers, a slayer could get more than 1 power/2 simple as long as their was a six month wait period. The problem that arose was that the slayer would make two or three levels and the player felt jipped that he didn't get anything for his level (other than the usual level ups) cause the way we were doing time it happened in less than a six month period.

If I ran a game today I would probably dole out the tattoos as boons/grants depending on the situation. The players wouldn't know it, but I'd probably do the "per level" instead of every six months. Then again I usually fast forward through down time anyway. I was asked how I made my tattooed men N.P.C. I just went with the per level because it was easier that way. At the time I didn't think there was a need for any "additional" tattoos above and beyond what they already had. Writers are given a measure of leeway so I doubt Kevin would do a tattoo audit, but if he felt the N.P.C. was unbalanced he would adjust it accordingly.

In the end its up to the GM. I suppose you have to understand my GM philosophy which it is the GM's job to keep the game balanced and I have no trouble doing that in my games regardless of the power level.

[cornholioprime]

Thank you for stopping by, Carl.

(For those of you who don't know, Carl Gleba, in one of the Books that he's written for Palladium over the past few years, created a Maxi-Man NPC. If anyone knows of the internal, official rules of Character Creation, he as a writer would be one of the sources.)

"GM's call."

Damn.

I was hoping for a win against drew_kitty....what with his Screen Name having "kitty" in it and all that. A red-blooded, tough-as-nails, all-American male shouldn't have to go back to his home and try to explain how he either lost or got held to a draw....by a kitty.

(Just kidding, Drew!)



[[[I think that I'll try to get this Question and Answer entered into one of the Gaming FAQs in a little bit....]]]