Superior Weapon question

[Xar]

Has anyone ever made a ruling on a non-magical, but kobold- or dwarven- made longbow?

Nothing in the book for a superior bow.

[Xar]

I ruled an upcharge of 600% for a Kobold made bow that gave a +1 to strike. How's that sound?

[Xar]

Ok, here is my list, created...well, just now.

Kobold Manufactured (non-magical) Items
Long bow, Short Bow & Crossbows
+1 strike

add 600%

+1 Strike and +20' to range

add 800%

These weapons have superior balance (weight/construction/design)

Dwarven Manufactured (non-magical) Items
Crossbows
+1 strike

add 700%

+1 Strike and +20' to range

add 900%

These weapons have superior balance (weight/construction/design)

+1 to Damage

add 400%

+2 to Damage

add 500%

+3 to Damage

add 600%

+4 to Damage

add 700%

These weapons have superior power (increased pull/tension)

Lets change Dwarf made to Elven made when we're talking about Long & Short bows shall we?

Elven Manufactured (non-magical) Items
Long bow, Short Bow
+1 strike

add 800%

+1 Strike and +20' to range

add 1000%

+2 Strike and +50' to range

add 2000%

These weapons have superior balance (weight/construction/design)


Hows that suit everyone?

These look great. Of course, elven-made makes more sense. I also do like the idea of dwarves making superior crossbows.

Thanks for the great input.

[Soldier of Od]

The Dwarven and Kobold stats and prices look good. Even if Dwarves aren't often longbowmen they can still manufacture the weapons for use by others.

But why have you put in stats for Elven made bows? Elves don't have any connection with bows or superior made weapons.

[azazel1024]

Except that Elves tend to be longbowmen, as well as humans.

Dwarves aren't, nor are Kobold (too short). As for making them, Kobolds and Dwarves specialize in weapons that are smithed, IE blacksmithing. A bow has no metal pieces. A bowyer is a very different speciality than blacksmithing, and this is something I think you'd see infinitely more of with humans and elves than you would dwarves and kobolds.

It would make sense that superior quality longbows and bows are produced only by Elves. As for crossbows, I can see this being a Dwarven or Kobold speciality.
-Matt

[Scrud]

Xar
Post subject: Superior Weapon question
Has anyone ever made a ruling on a non-magical, but kobold- or dwarven- made longbow?

Nothing in the book for a superior bow.
Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:56 p

I agree if anyone made a superior bow its the elves, for that matter any race could specialize in the creation of their chosen weapons, just so happens that dwarves makes steel, the great weapons that everyone likes to use

[The Dark Elf]

I disagree. elves arent longbowmen. thats a different game.

If anyone was going to make a quality bow it would be the wolfen.

[Scrud]

I disagree. elves arent longbowmen. thats a different game.

If anyone was going to make a quality bow it would be the wolfen.

I suppose there are not a whole lot of hard facts pointing towards elves superior craftsmanship, and your right its is mostly sentiments left over from other fantasy settings, but elves are the only ones who are considered superior bowmen and get and extra attack when using a bow, so I say go with what feels right. In my opinion elves with so many generations of being long bowmen that they get a racial bonus to the skill, that if anyone would have figured out how to make a superior bow in that amount of time it would have been them.

[Cinos]

I don't, it's not metal work and out of the normal dwarf / kobold areas.

I have elven made bows of similar work, and gnomish crossbows, same idea though.

[JuliusCreed]

I have to agree that Elves make superior longbowmen and thus by default, superior bows. Dwarves just wouldn't be able to match the craftsmanship, especially of longbows. And why would a Dwarf waste the time carving something he's never going to be able use himself, much less a weapon that the ancient enemy, Elves, usually specialize in?
I've also had Elves crafting what i call Elven War Bows

Elf War Bow
Either a long or short bow of superior craftsmanship and strength, often with bladed hardware attached at the grip area, kind of like a stirrup hilt on a sword, for close quarters combat. The bows, as they come, require a minimum PS of 14 to draw, 12 for the short bow version, and do 1d8 damage when the blades are used in melee combat, 1d6 for short bows. Damage from the arrows is 2d6+2 and 1d6+2 respectively. Cost: 100 gold long war bow, 60 gold short war bow

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. I have to agree with Dark Elf that elves shouldn't be stereotyped into the cliche of expert bowman. Grr ... personal pet peeve (along with elves being naturally tree loving hippies, but that's a different topic really).

With that said, I'll agree Scrud is right in that elves get an extra attack when using a bow in Rifts (via Rifts Conversion Book One). That's only for Rifts, but is an actual Palladium Book reference. I never agreed with it, but it is canon.

Though, with that said, there is nothing to suggest that elves are better craftsman. Dwarves on the other hand are mentioned to have "an aptitude for weapon design" as well as a bonus to "carpentry" (which is the Palladium skill for building things with wood). Even if dwarves didn't use bows* (see the "note" below) the dwarves don't use all their weapons. They make many for others, and there is no reason why this should be any different. For example, the Kobolds make 60% of the Wolfen weapons and armor.

Note: Also, just for fun, there is nothing that prevents a dwarf from being a long bowmen by the rules. Even if there was, there would be NOTHING preventing them from using a short bow and being as proficient as any other race.

All right, that should be all for now. People are welcome to run games how they want, and as long as they're having fun then it's fine by me. I just wanted to provide some actual book information into the topic. Thank you for your time and patience, pleaes have a nice day. Farewell and safe jourenys for now.

[azazel1024]

If you read through the PFRPG books there is a good number of references to elves being excellent bowmen. Also if you look at Western Empire in particular, there is a bowyer in one of the cities (in the woodlands, I forget the exact name of the region now) that specilizes in superior longbows. He can make them with bonuses.

It is not firmly entrenched and well spelled out that Elves are all longbowmen, or even that they are better than most other species, but it is alluded to in a great many places in the PFRPG books including a large number of references to elven longbowmen NPCs (relative to other professions of elves. Most seem to be longbowmen or magic users if an Elven NPC is presented, though this isn't entirely exclusive).

Elves high PP would also contribute to their skill as a longbowman.
-Matt

[The Dark Elf]

I have to admit that I'd missed the extra attacks in the Rifts CB1 and although I hate it, i have seen more references to the stereotyped elves and their bows.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I would limit any bonuses any high quality weapon gives to highly skilled chars (L7 and above).
This because the char has to be highly skilled to get any use out of the weapon being used.

[Prysus]

However Elves Favorite Weapons (In this game) are known to be swords, knives, blunt and bows so I never understood that particular pet peeve.

Greetings and Salutations. I knew about the favorite weapon thing, but that's a far cry from being able to make it (same as I can have a favorite food but that doesn't make me an expert cook). Though, from what I'm seeing in this thread, there are other references in the book, so hard to argue. I may not like it (anymore than I like that elves officially became tree loving hippies by canon as per Rifter 50, and yes that was official material), but I can accept that it's there (even if I don't like it). I just hadn't seen the references such as Western Empire (I technically still haven't seen it, if anyone has a page number I'd appreciate it) before (or many others outside of the PF main book).

Dwarfs are almost exclusively seen carrying an axe, hammer or crossbow, yet I never hear anyone rail against it as stereotyping.

Actually, that topic just doesn't come up nearly as often because everyone loves playing elves instead (in my experience). Most player made elves (in my experience) will be mind mages or long bowmen (with little variation beyond that). I've only had one player actually want to make a dwarf. Believe me I sighed and rolled my eyes when I saw him go with battle axes. In my experience, it's just a topic that comes up far less than the elven long bowmen.

Some of my friends and players have come to realize my disdain for stereotypes/cliches. Those that know me best know that when they see a stereotype introduced (especially if I'm the player) that there's a catch (and things are not how they appear). That's just me though. I mostly wanted to say that yes, I do dislike the dwarf and battle axe (or hammer, though I'll admit I haven't seen the crossbow stereotype much to really be bothered by that one) just as much. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.



P.S. I'm not trying to argue either. Just explaining my feelings on the matter. Not everyone has to agree.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I'm not so sure. If a blade has a keen edge it's going to cut better no matter whom is holding it. Given, the poor guy may never actually hit his target, but if he/she does hit, the blade is going to cut deeper yes? Same with Balance. If a weapon is perfectly balanced it does what it needs to do better then an unbalanced one. I'm sure I could swing a balanced mace over my head a lot easier then one thats off centered. I may still get stabbed to death because I don't know what I'm doing, but thats not the point.

It might cut deeper.

Maybe they should have penalties for bad quality weapons.

[Cinos]

To me, Elves preferring bows of all stripes makes sense, they're always ones to avoid putting themselves in direct harm, when your lives are really that long, you're going to attach a higher value to it in my mind, and elves are the epitome of their own well being. In general, Magic is the stereotypical elven weapon to me, followed by Bows and then Swords or Daggers for close combat (The latter growing to me from the Chaos War, Seraphs seem to have a huge affinity for flaming swords, figure their allies of the age would develop like minds to blades).

I've always seen dwarfs preferring hammers, more for the symbolic nature of their forging, with axes and anything that can easily be two handed gripped and give a wide swing arch (whatever lets them plant a heavy blow to their taller opponents chest, or sweep their legs out). I also see them using some of the heavy fist weapons, like a Cestus or a thick bladed Katar for some reason.

[azazel1024]

Well if you get in to a whole race who like to use something, that means someone has to make it. Back when during the Elf-Dwarf war and earlier, humans weren't very prominent and there weren't a whole lot of other races around (okay, plenty, but most of their populations were tiny compared to the elves and dwarfs).

So unless the Elves contracted out their bow production, they made a lof of them, themselves. That to me would say that, if you are going to have superior bows, the people most likely to be able to create them would be elves.

Frankly I haven't liked the suprior weapon thing for a long time. Or at least I should say I don't like it being limited to Dwarfs and Kobolds. You mean to tell me that a human or elf couldn't learn to become a highly skilled blacksmith? Even on the level of a dwarf or kobold? I'd agree that maybe there are a few secrets, or even minor mystical spells that kobolds and dwarfs use (the dwarfs ignoring the whole no magic thing just a tiny bit, lets say stretching the point) in smithing to make the weapons so superior (but not actually magical).

However, I think any skilled black smith should be able to create a weapon with at least the first tier of bonuses, or maybe even 2 tiers for a master smith, and with maybe the rest of the tiers reserved for really good dwarfs or kobolds.

I do think there should be penalties for poor quality weapons or 'damaged' weapons. -1 to damage (minimum 1 point) and -1 to strike/parry for poor quality weapons (typically cost half what a normal quality weapon would).
-Matt

[Cinos]

However, I think any skilled black smith should be able to create a weapon with at least the first tier of bonuses, or maybe even 2 tiers for a master smith, and with maybe the rest of the tiers reserved for really good dwarfs or kobolds.

Agreed, I added a smithing skill, and just give Dwarves and Kobolds a large bonus to set them ahead of the curve, and creating a high quality weapon requires to pass the check by a set amount (Depending on the desired bonus), lets anyone make great weapons, but gives races an edge in their realm of racial traits.

[Soldier of Od]

Okay, I don't normally bother to counter everyone's opinions in detail, but I just wanted to make my points clear - I hope no one thinks I'm being stubborn or argumentative, but I really do think that some people are taking their preconceptions from elsewhere and mistakenly applying them to PFRPG:

With that said, I'll agree Scrud is right in that elves get an extra attack when using a bow in Rifts (via Rifts Conversion Book One). That's only for Rifts, but is an actual Palladium Book reference. I never agreed with it, but it is canon.

Woah! Okay, I admit I didn't know that. Having never played Rifts I wasn't party to that bit of information. Although it is a Palladium books publication I would be a bit reluctant to consider importing it to the PFRPG if they decided themselves not to include it. Is there a reason why this difference might apply to Rifts elves? Do their history/origins or other attributes differ?

If you read through the PFRPG books there is a good number of references to elves being excellent bowmen. Also if you look at Western Empire in particular, there is a bowyer in one of the cities (in the woodlands, I forget the exact name of the region now) that specilizes in superior longbows. He can make them with bonuses.

Okay, but just because there is one elf that can make high quality bows doesn't mean that all elves are naturally good at making them. There's an elf in one of the other cities that makes high quality hats, but that doesn't mean that every elf is a natural born milliner. I haven't seen any references to elves being excellent longbowmen elsewhere in the PFRPG books.

However Elves Favorite Weapons (In this game) are known to be swords, knives, blunt and bows so I never understood that particular pet peeve.

So why should that mean that elves are any better at using or making bows than they are with swords, knives and blunt weapons? Bows are just one of the four weapon types they prefer to use. In that case why not say that they can also make superior swords? You could just as easily decide that a troll is an expert at making large blade weapons.

I agree that humans and elves are most likely to be longbowmen than any other races, but that's because of the human society that they live in - that their armies (the important parts anyway) will only be made up of the 'human friendly races', of which dwarves and gnomes are less likely to become longbowmen due to the awkwardness of their size (although in 2nd edition, dwarves can actually pick that O.C.C.). Sure, there are references to elves taking the longbowman O.C.C. in the books, but I don't see any stating that they are any better than their human counterparts. Basically, what it comes down to is that apart from a couple of specific individuals in the Verequell Woodlands, I don't see any reasons why humans and elves should be considered any more or less proficient than each other with a bow. A high P.P. makes elves better at loads of things than humans, not just archery. Considering their much higher population, there are presumably a lot more human longbowmen out there than elves.

[azazel1024]

My point is largely that, dwarves and kobolds due to their stated preference to work with smithing, and their small stature probably would rarely become bowyers. Humans and Elves who are longbow men, typically would source from 'their own kind'. Sure in the polyglut and multiracial current day Palladium world, that might not be true now, but it certainly used to be. During the elf dwarf war at least Elves would be making all of their own long bows.

My arguement isn't that all Elves are excellent bowyers (even though it seems like basically all dwarves no matter their actual profession seem to be black smiths at least as a hobby, or that is certainly how it is portrayed in PFRPG). My arguement is that, if someone is going to make superior longbows, the races most likely to become a bowyer (out of the human friendly races at least) are Humans and Elves. The ones with the longest tradtion of making bows would be the elves, since they generally out date humans on Palladium, and certainly do in regardes to continuous, unbroken civilization.

I personally don't think Dwarves or Kobolds are the only races that could exclusively make steel weapons that are superior and humans, elves or others could do the same. I do think that the vast majority of blacksmiths skilled enough to do this are Dwarves and Kobolds. Just like I think the vast majority of bowyers able to make bows with superior traits are going to be Elves and/or Humans. Oh, fletchers able to make superior arrows would also likely be Elves and/or Humans.

Considering Elves much longer life span than humans, I think more of the very superior bowyers will be elves over humans as they are going to have several centuries more to practice their craft and perfect it.

By all means if your views differ that is fine. This is all the logic that I am using, not simply "Elves live in the woods and like bows and magic" just because there are a few off hand mentions of such things in PFRPG and it is stereotyped heavily elsewhere in fantasy settings.
-Matt

[Prysus]

Woah! Okay, I admit I didn't know that. Having never played Rifts I wasn't party to that bit of information. Although it is a Palladium books publication I would be a bit reluctant to consider importing it to the PFRPG if they decided themselves not to include it. Is there a reason why this difference might apply to Rifts elves? Do their history/origins or other attributes differ?

Greetings and Salutations. For the record, I do not import the rules from Conversion Book One into my PFRPG settings, but I know people that do and I know the reference is there. The reason given in the book is ...

Natural aptitude and eons of tradition in the art of the long bow provides one extra attack per melee if the Archery skill is taken and the character is from the Palladium World.

Of course, in Conversion Book One elves also get bonuses to Wilderness skills (like when Kevin wrote the Conversion Book he went with the classic stereotype). They also get a few (4) free skills just for being an elf (language/literacy and math based). Oddly though, the elves have (allegedly) studied the bow for eons to have bonus attacks, but that's NOT one of their normal skills. From what I can gather, every race has extra skills (and maybe some abilities) they don't have normally in PF. I think this is to make them tougher in the harsher Rifts setting (and a bow won't be a major battle changer in Rifts). That last part is just my opinion though. Personally, I ignore those Rifts notes in the PF settings.

Note: Page 90 of the original Conversion Book One has a similar passage, but worded slightly different (and doesn't require the character to be from the Palladium World).

I had only made a post to answer Soldier of Od's question, but since I'm here ...

My point is largely that, dwarves and kobolds due to their stated preference to work with smithing, and their small stature probably would rarely become bowyers. Humans and Elves who are longbow men, typically would source from 'their own kind'. Sure in the polyglut and multiracial current day Palladium world, that might not be true now, but it certainly used to be. During the elf dwarf war at least Elves would be making all of their own long bows.

During the Elf-Dwarf War, elves also made their own swords, axes, staves, and other weapons. This doesn't give them unique bonuses for making them. Nor did this give them the ability to make rune weapons during the war despite how valued they were.

The rest of what you said I can agree with. I may not agree it makes elves better than the other races, but I understand it and respect your view. Hmm ... well, I do respect your point above too, I just think it has a logic flaw (if that makes sense). I won't say anything on the rest because I see your point of view.

Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Cinos]

After reading points from Pryus and Azazel1024, I got to thinking a bit.

During the Elf-Dwarf War, elves would have needed to find ways to minimize the edge of dwarven Rune Weapons, conventional enchanting would not top it anyway you cut it, even if runic weapons where done in limited production due to the requirements of their forging. So, how do you mitigate this powerful edge? You stay away from them. Bows, and other ranged weapons would be a viable option to support line fighters (Most likely combat wizards of some stripe), without slaughtering elves en mass by sending them to go toe to toe with dwarves (Who even without rune weapons, are tougher and better in close quarters combat by stat alone). This of course would not have been enough to deal with the underground fortifications of the Dwarven kingdom of the age (perhaps a reason the initial pushes of the elves where stalled out, their edge was suddenly negated any time they attacked a dwarf city by forcing them into melee range).

Of course, this is nothing but subjective reasoning on my part, and in no way supported by any canon material (I haven't even bothered seeing if it is supported anywhere or not).

[Cinos]

Wow. I can't believe I'm going to say this twice in one night, but, Welcome to the dark side.

>.>


<.<

There was a perception that I wasn't?

[Soldier of Od]

azazel1024 wrote:
My point is largely that, dwarves and kobolds due to their stated preference to work with smithing, and their small stature probably would rarely become bowyers. Humans and Elves who are longbow men, typically would source from 'their own kind'. Sure in the polyglut and multiracial current day Palladium world, that might not be true now, but it certainly used to be. During the elf dwarf war at least Elves would be making all of their own long bows.

During the Elf-Dwarf War, elves also made their own swords, axes, staves, and other weapons. This doesn't give them unique bonuses for making them. Nor did this give them the ability to make rune weapons during the war despite how valued they were.

Exactly - this is part of what I am trying to say. Most of peoples' references to bows are just as valid for all the other weapons used by elves. There is still no need for any specialisation in bows in particular.

My argument is that, if someone is going to make superior longbows, the races most likely to become a bowyer (out of the human friendly races at least) are Humans and Elves.

Just like I think the vast majority of bowyers able to make bows with superior traits are going to be Elves and/or Humans. Oh, fletchers able to make superior arrows would also likely be Elves and/or Humans.

YES! Humans AND elves - that is the point I am trying to make! Both these races should be considered equal regarding bows.

Considering Elves much longer life span than humans, I think more of the very superior bowyers will be elves over humans as they are going to have several centuries more to practice their craft and perfect it.

Good point! that makes sense. But it doesn't mean that they are naturally better at bowmaking, just that the real experts may be elven just because they will have had longer to perfect the craft. Therefore, many of the best jewellers, artists, masons and other artisans may also be elven for the same reason.

[JuliusCreed]

Considering Elves much longer life span than humans, I think more of the very superior bowyers will be elves over humans as they are going to have several centuries more to practice their craft and perfect it.

Good point! that makes sense. But it doesn't mean that they are naturally better at bowmaking, just that the real experts may be elven just because they will have had longer to perfect the craft. Therefore, many of the best jewellers, artists, masons and other artisans may also be elven for the same reason.

When dealing with this particular aspect of the subject, to a point it becomes a question of "nobility".
Before the time of the Dwarf-Elf War, there is little argument that the Elf was essentially the ruling class. Yes, Dwarf had his kingdoms and levels of nobility as well. But they were still second to the Elf in terms of the classic ruling elite. The Dwarf kingdoms were built primarily on the principle of hard work at various jobs that were considered to be, at least by Elf standards, hard labor. The Elf ruled primarily on the premise of political standing and the sense that hard labor was beneath the caliber of the ruling elite like themselves. To an Elf of the time, occupations such as masonry, jewlelry making and weaponsmithing were most likely considered "dirty" and meant to be done by someone of lower social status. This is not to say that there were no weapon smiths among the Elf. Quite the contrary, I'm certain there were many. Even among the ruling elite there are sub-strata within the ranks, like a sort of upper-middle class, if you will. Most Elf weaponsmiths were probably more likely to make more decorative and ceremonial pieces rather than the sturdier tools of war. That particular task was left, then, to the Dwarf.
The extent of Elf weapon manufacture excelled in bow making largely due to the relatively noble nature behind the bow. As the primary weapon of an elite fighting class, the Longbowman, Elf bowyers had the monumental task of providing excellent quality weapons for "their" warriors that could be comparable in quality to those forged by the Dwarf. And of course these weapons were not only available to the Elf elite soldier, they were also readilly available to the more noble of Elf classes, mostly because of noble sports such as hunting, target shooting, and any other "game" you can think of that involves the use of bow and arrow.
Hence, the (rather cliche'd) idea of the superiority of Elf at crafting bows versus the Dwarf ability to do the same.

[azazel1024]

A final point I think.

Most of us agree that someone should be able to make superior bows and probably arrows. Anyone could do it, if we are the GMs in our games.

At least looking at real world examples, you don't find too many cases in artisan crafts where you'd find someone making something that they can't use or at least can't appreciate. Sure it happened, but is much the exception.

So I think you'd find, before, now and in the future most races of dimished stature are going to be rare as bowyers and fletchers. The taller races are more likely to participate in making the weapons that others of their race are likely to use.

Elves, Humans, Wolfen, Changelings, Giants and Kankoran are probably roughly in that order the most likely to make superior bows and arrows.

The Elves at least by simple dint of their long life span have the opportunity to become so incredibly skilled at it. Humans, because they are so damn prolific, and frankly get good at things quickly would be just behind Elves. Wolfen, because they are pretty prolific (but they haven't had a real organized civilization very long which would encourage organized artisanry). Giants, because they use bows, and making an 18ft longbow is probably not something you are going to find a shortie doing...but frankly few take to anything ressembling organized artisanry (other than Cyclops and to a lesser degree Jotans, and neither have much love for bows...the Cyclops some). Kankoran in their love for nature are probably going to be HUGE longbow lovers. However most are so in to nature, etc that they are going to spend their time out in it, not sitting down to make things like longbows.
-Matt

[Soldier of Od]

A final point I think.

Most of us agree that someone should be able to make superior bows and probably arrows. Anyone could do it, if we are the GMs in our games.

At least looking at real world examples, you don't find too many cases in artisan crafts where you'd find someone making something that they can't use or at least can't appreciate. Sure it happened, but is much the exception.

So I think you'd find, before, now and in the future most races of dimished stature are going to be rare as bowyers and fletchers. The taller races are more likely to participate in making the weapons that others of their race are likely to use.

Elves, Humans, Wolfen, Changelings, Giants and Kankoran are probably roughly in that order the most likely to make superior bows and arrows.

The Elves at least by simple dint of their long life span have the opportunity to become so incredibly skilled at it. Humans, because they are so damn prolific, and frankly get good at things quickly would be just behind Elves. Wolfen, because they are pretty prolific (but they haven't had a real organized civilization very long which would encourage organized artisanry). Giants, because they use bows, and making an 18ft longbow is probably not something you are going to find a shortie doing...but frankly few take to anything ressembling organized artisanry (other than Cyclops and to a lesser degree Jotans, and neither have much love for bows...the Cyclops some). Kankoran in their love for nature are probably going to be HUGE longbow lovers. However most are so in to nature, etc that they are going to spend their time out in it, not sitting down to make things like longbows.
-Matt

Yeah, fair enough. I agree.

[The Dark Elf]

giants make longbows that fire dwarves. Thats the real reason they dont use longbow - it brings back bad memories.

[Cinos]

giants make longbows that fire dwarves. Thats the real reason they dont use longbow - it brings back bad memories.

Do their Catapults fire Elves?

[The Dark Elf]

giants make longbows that fire dwarves. Thats the real reason they dont use longbow - it brings back bad memories.

Do their Catapults fire Elves?

No - Kobolds.