RCC + OCC = ?

[drewkitty ~..~]

It is simple.
The canon rule is that every thing given by the RCC is lost and takes only what the OCC gives.
The reasoning behind this is that the char would not have taken a OCC if they have the special abilities of the race.

[dragonfett]

Hey drewkitty, can you reference this canon rule where the character looses everything given by the RCC? I am curious and wish to read up on it myself.

[Daeglan]

It is simple.
The canon rule is that every thing given by the RCC is lost and takes only what the OCC gives.
The reasoning behind this is that the char would not have taken a OCC if they have the special abilities of the race.

so if a Dragon decided to take the soldier OCC they loose the ability to shape shift, breathe fire etc.? How does this make sense to you? That's like saying a dragon who decided to soldier looses his natural abilities.

[Damian Magecraft]

It is simple.
The canon rule is that every thing given by the RCC is lost and takes only what the OCC gives.
The reasoning behind this is that the char would not have taken a OCC if they have the special abilities of the race.

so if a Dragon decided to take the soldier OCC they loose the ability to shape shift, breathe fire etc.? How does this make sense to you? That's like saying a dragon who decided to soldier looses his natural abilities.

Why would a dragon ever need to take a OCC?

[Zer0 Kay]

He means skills. Not abilities. However, I recall reading or hearing somewhere that you get all the abilities and half the skills of the RCC. As you grew up learning your racial skills and then you take on the new class. I'd go so far as saying that Dragons get to keep all their starting RCC skills because it is supposed to be from racial memory.

[Zer0 Kay]

I like to believe that this topic has been thoroughly resolved.

Good thing that doesn't determine anything.
Is it really resolved just because someone says "by canon" without any references?

[drewkitty ~..~]

It is simple.
The canon rule is that every thing given by the RCC is lost and takes only what the OCC gives.
The reasoning behind this is that the char would not have taken a OCC if they have the special abilities of the race.

so if a Dragon decided to take the soldier OCC they loose the ability to shape shift, breathe fire etc.? How does this make sense to you? That's like saying a dragon who decided to soldier looses his natural abilities.

Why would a dragon ever need to take a OCC?

There is a difference between an RCC ability and a Racial ability.

Bringing up Dragons is like bringing up the exception to the rule. The skills a hatchling has are theirs from conception or from the egg. So Dragons' initial powers and skills are racial powers and skills. Not a true RCC class.

Why would a Dragon change their class to an OCC..... Because they get very little skills otherwise. They are also drawn to

[Shark_Force]

RUE, 148, designer's note.

essentially, an RCC is a hard-coded genetic character class, and if you actually have an RCC it's because that race can't have an OCC. in other words, dragons don't cast spells because they're ley line walkers or shifers, and they don't have psionics because they're a mind melter or a burster. they have those things because they are a dragon.

now that said, many things were previously erroneously classified as RCCs according to the same note. this gives us a situation where you can be a certain race, and have an OCC, and you should get the racial abilities but not the racial OCC abilities. the problem comes when you try to figure out which are racial abilities, and which are racial OCC abilities, because there isn't anything that actually tells you what the difference is. so essentially, the GM has to decide.

[The Dark Elf]

IIRC 1st ed. PF multi-classing took the bonuses for duplicated skills (should there be any) and added those together. Could be an idea.

[Damian Magecraft]

IIRC 1st ed. PF multi-classing took the bonuses for duplicated skills (should there be any) and added those together. Could be an idea.

What does the "IIRC" stand for? And "PF"?

If this is from a book that I have, can I have a page, so I can look it up, please?

If I Recall Corecctly
Palladium Fantasy


no page numbers available as Dark Elf is mis-recalling.

PF1e WB 3 (high seas) is where "multi-classing" rules came from (the same rules are available on the cutting room floor). Those rules State that the primary skills are frozen when a new Occ is selected, duplicated skills take the higher of the 2 in percentages and the higher bonuses).

[Shark_Force]

the problem comes when you try to figure out which are racial abilities, and which are racial OCC abilities, because there isn't anything that actually tells you what the difference is. so essentially, the GM has to decide.

I'm pretty sure the R.C.C. skills description accurately gives what the R.C.C. can learn, and what it already knows. I really don't see any problem here.

well, to give you an example directly from RUE, look at the psi-stalker OCC. now then, the psi-stalker is clearly a race. several of the racial OCC abilities are clearly racial abilities. now tell me, what does a psi-stalker (race) headhunter OCC look like, statwise? which OCC abilities are kept, which are lost, and of those which they keep, are they kept exactly the same, or are they not quite as good (for example, do their sensing abilities progress at a slower rate, have shorter range, etc?)

now, you may or may not be able to come up with answers for those questions. what you won't be able to come up with are answers to those questions which are supported by any rules anywhere, because there are no rules for what a psi-stalker's abilities would be if they don't take the psi-stalker OCC (even though it clearly states that they can in fact do so).

[Damian Magecraft]

the problem comes when you try to figure out which are racial abilities, and which are racial OCC abilities, because there isn't anything that actually tells you what the difference is. so essentially, the GM has to decide.

I'm pretty sure the R.C.C. skills description accurately gives what the R.C.C. can learn, and what it already knows. I really don't see any problem here.

well, to give you an example directly from RUE, look at the psi-stalker OCC. now then, the psi-stalker is clearly a race. several of the racial OCC abilities are clearly racial abilities. now tell me, what does a psi-stalker (race) headhunter OCC look like, statwise? which OCC abilities are kept, which are lost, and of those which they keep, are they kept exactly the same, or are they not quite as good (for example, do their sensing abilities progress at a slower rate, have shorter range, etc?)

now, you may or may not be able to come up with answers for those questions. what you won't be able to come up with are answers to those questions which are supported by any rules anywhere, because there are no rules for what a psi-stalker's abilities would be if they don't take the psi-stalker OCC (even though it clearly states that they can in fact do so).

There are only 2 versions of Psi-Stalkers.
Civilized (trained by the CS)
And Wild.
any attempts to "cross" class an RCC IMO is nothing more than an attempt at munchkinism. (gee this RCC is not godly enough for me I wanna cross it with Y class to make it uber.)

[Damian Magecraft]

so could my dragon/glitterboy pilot/ley line walker/mind melter/burster/demigod be able to summon undead from inside his armor?

Thank you making my point if even in jest...

[drewkitty ~..~]

A Racial Character Class is different from the ability of the exact same Racial Character Class?

In Rifts, the usage of the term RCC is used loosely in some cases. Dragons have come up already in this discussion.

RCC also means that 'Every member of the race goes through nearly the same education/learning program to develop their powers and skills, so they end up with nearly the same abilities and skills.' Thus if the char is a member of the race they WILL have the RCC. It would only be those of the race that do not have the normal abilities/powers of the race that would be trained in ANYTHING else other then the RCC.
Those of the race that grew up outside the "tribe" would fall under GM desecration.

However, in PF most of the races are listed as races not RCC's. Thus, if there are racial powers, they are not mixed up with a quote/unquote RCC.

A Psi-Stalker would keep their own class, but chose skills to do the job of a Headhunter.
A PS is an RCC that is also a PCC. Nether of which can change from their class. They can however, learn new skills to be able to do a job. [see HU1, HU2 or BTS1 to see how to learn new skills by other means other then the "level up" system.

Yes, you will have to work with your GM while creating your char, but it is doable.

[Shark_Force]

There are only 2 versions of Psi-Stalkers.
Civilized (trained by the CS)
And Wild.
any attempts to "cross" class an RCC IMO is nothing more than an attempt at munchkinism. (gee this RCC is not godly enough for me I wanna cross it with Y class to make it uber.)

psi-stalker is no longer an RCC, it's an OCC.

furthermore, there are explicitly other psi-stalker classes already in the books.

and it still doesn't do anything to disprove my point that there's nothing telling you what exactly from the psi-stalker OCC is from the racial OCC, and what exactly is from the race but not from the OCC.

[dragonfett]

Here's what I don't get, if the Psi-Stalker gets one set skills for being "wild" and another for being "civilized", why can't they become any other OCC that doesn't confer other magical or psionic or similar abilities, like a Wilderness Scout or City Rat?

[Damian Magecraft]

Here's what I don't get, if the Psi-Stalker gets one set skills for being "wild" and another for being "civilized", why can't they become any other OCC that doesn't confer other magical or psionic or similar abilities, like a Wilderness Scout or City Rat?

Note the only "civilized" stalkers are with the CS and the skill selections are not that different and IIRC it mentions that the "civilized" ones are only a few steps away from going "feral." just like the dog boys.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. I normally don't like getting involve in topics that I don't have much personal interest in, but I'd like to note that Psi-Stalkers can also become Cyber-Knights. As per SoT4: Cyber-Knights, 3% of Cyber-Knights are Psi-Stalkers. So clearly they can select an O.C.C. (at least some). Just saying. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Shark_Force]

there are also psi-slingers iirc, and iirc there's a mindwerks psi-stalker (might also be a new type in the lone star book?). pretty sure there's a few other examples too.

and then, once again, you may wish to try actually reading the reference provided. since you appear to be incapable of actually opening your book to the reference and reading what it says, i'll repeat it here for you:

"We were a bit sloppy in the early days being consistent as to which characters were O.C.C.s and which were R.C.C.s. The Dog Boy was originally classified as an R.C.C. (so were psychics), but sticking with the definition of an R.C.C. (a character that is so defined by its genetic make-up that it cannot select other occupation, it is what it is), a Dog Boy would be an O.C.C. No, the Dog Boy is not human, but if given the opportunity, the mutant canines could learn other occupations. That puts them on par with D-Bees; a nonhuman capable of a wide range of skills and jobs. By the way, Dog Boys are one of my personal favorite characters and I still love the Dog Boy illustration by Kevin Long - Kevin Siembieda"

now, this note is in specific reference to the dog boy OCC, but it has some generally applicable information in it too. for example, "...an R.C.C. (a character that is so defined by its genetic make-up that it cannot select other occupation, it is what it is)..." would indicate that in order for something to be an RCC, it must not be able to have any differences. the fact that the psi-stalker race can choose something other than the psi-stalker OCC, by definition, means that the psi-stalker is NOT an RCC. next we have some more information about why the Dog Boy (and by extension other races) would not be an RCC: "...if given the opportunity, the mutant canines could learn other occupations. That puts them on par with D-Bees; a nonhuman capable of a wide range of skills and jobs...", meaning that if something can choose from a range of skills and jobs, it is not an RCC.

now you can talk all you want, and you can make whatever claims you want, but until you back them up with something more solid than "it is this way because i said it is this way, therefore i am right", you're just closing your eyes and claiming that there is no longer anything in front of you because you can't see it. you're welcome to house rule however you want for your own games, of course, but barring specifically changing the rules, it should be immediately obvious to anyone who actually reads this section of the rules (which i specifically referred you to, and which you seem to have disregarded) that the psi-stalker is NOT an RCC, specifically because it DOES have a choice in what OCC it chooses.

if it was in fact an RCC, then there would not be two options in the main book, nor would there be other options listed in other books. a psi-stalker is nothing more nor less than a modified human, and should be able to choose from any OCC that is reasonable (a typical psi-stalker will tend to be more physically oriented, but then again, so will the typical gymnast, and i would hope that nobody is going to suggest that gymnast is an RCC)

(as far as psionics, i completely disagree with your assessment that they are RCCs. the mind melter is not just someone with above-average psionic power... that's what the major and minor psionic rules represent. a mind melter is someone who has above-average psionic power, and has specifically developed it in a certain way. you're not born able to use super telekinesis, you develop that ability by extensive practice, training, meditation, and so forth. this is why a rogue scholar with major psionics can have so many more skills than a mind melter; the mind melter devoted all resources to developing psionic abilities, while the rogue scholar devoted all resources to learning about a wide variety of subjects.)

and this is why in RUE, the only RCC you will find is dragon. a hatchling dragon, by definition, is an RCC. it doesn't learn how to cast spells by studying, it just knows how to cast spells because it's a dragon. it doesn't practice, meditate, or otherwise seek to improve its psionic powers, it simply has them, with no extra effort on its part. no mentor, trainer, book, or education is required, it simply understands these things genetically. a hatchling dragon could no more choose not to learn those abilities than a human could choose not to learn how to breathe, how to make our heart beat, or how to move our hands.

so, once you actually take the steps needed to understand the rules, rather than simply deciding that you're right for no better reason than that you say so, it should become obvious that psi-stalkers are not and never were an RCC, specifically because they can choose what OCC to be. anything previously listed as an RCC which can choose what OCC to be is, by definition, also not an RCC. there is no such thing as combining an RCC and an OCC, because it is by definition not possible. however, this also means that some things that were previously defined as RCCs have now become a specialised racial OCC, and in many cases we don't know which part is racial abilities, and which part is racial OCC abilities. presumably, a psi-stalker who chooses to become a headhunter will not be as good at the psi-stalker abilities as a typical psi-stalker who focuses on improving their psi-stalker abilities. what we don't have any information on is how much better a psi-stalker who focuses on being a typical psi-stalker and developing those abilities might be as compared to one who doesn't.

[Wildfire]

Just my 2 cents this is how we play in my games

RCCs like the Psi-stalker are not really hard wired into thier gentic make up the abilities are and if they were orphaned as a child and raised by a rogue scholar they could become a slightly (sarcasim here) agressive rogue scholar if they wanted to be. it is a choice of nature vs nurture (however you spell this) some RCC like dragons and other mystical creatures have hardwired abilities that they will want to explore so they don't really spend time exploring occs and are all bulked together in certain general RCCs were-beings could be slumped in to this.

[Damian Magecraft]

there are also psi-slingers iirc, and iirc there's a mindwerks psi-stalker (might also be a new type in the lone star book?). pretty sure there's a few other examples too.

As I stated before, . . . I believe how you're suppose to interpret the Racial Character Classes as species, and Occupational Character Classes as skills, or at times considered, jobs. Each R.C.C. describes what skills are available to them. Some R.C.C.s allows you to choose an O.C.C.'s skill set. And others just flat-out denies any O.C.C. skill set, and just gives you the only skills the R.C.C. fits into the role as, in the Rifts settings. Now since the authors are expanding R.C.C.'s skill sets for certain R.C.C.s, that's fine. So long as it states it for only the R.C.C. generation and the R.C.C. alone. As a GM, I won't permit an R.C.C. to choose an O.C.C. skill set that is "NOT" stated as an option.

now, this note is in specific reference to the dog boy OCC, but it has some generally applicable information in it too. for example, "...an R.C.C. (a character that is so defined by its genetic make-up that it cannot select other occupation, it is what it is)..." would indicate that in order for something to be an RCC, it must not be able to have any differences. the fact that the psi-stalker race can choose something other than the psi-stalker OCC, by definition, means that the psi-stalker is NOT an RCC. next we have some more information about why the Dog Boy (and by extension other races) would not be an RCC: "...if given the opportunity, the mutant canines could learn other occupations. That puts them on par with D-Bees; a nonhuman capable of a wide range of skills and jobs...", meaning that if something can choose from a range of skills and jobs, it is not an RCC.

The Psi-Stalker is an R.C.C. with other optional O.C.C.s skill sets to choose from. This does not negate the fact that it's an R.C.C. The R.C.C. is clearly stated and defined at the very beginning of the section in the original book, as I referred to earlier, as not 100% human. You didn't answer my question previously, . . .

Is there an O.C.C. with 2 or more O.C.C.s "within" it, like an R.C.C.?

and this is why in RUE, the only RCC you will find is dragon. a hatchling dragon, by definition, is an RCC. it doesn't learn how to cast spells by studying, it just knows how to cast spells because it's a dragon. it doesn't practice, meditate, or otherwise seek to improve its psionic powers, it simply has them, with no extra effort on its part. no mentor, trainer, book, or education is required, it simply understands these things genetically. a hatchling dragon could no more choose not to learn those abilities than a human could choose not to learn how to breathe, how to make our heart beat, or how to move our hands.

All R.C.C.s are born with their own abilities, just like the Psi-Stalkers. What part of "R.C.C." do you not understand? You even stated from the Ultimate Edition books on the definition of an R.C.C., . . . "an RCC is a hard-coded genetic character class.", which tells us that they are clearly not 100% human.

it should become obvious that psi-stalkers are not and never were an RCC, specifically because they can choose what OCC to be. anything previously listed as an RCC which can choose what OCC to be is, by definition, also not an RCC. there is no such thing as combining an RCC and an OCC, because it is by definition not possible. however, this also means that some things that were previously defined as RCCs have now become a specialised racial OCC, and in many cases we don't know which part is racial abilities, and which part is racial OCC abilities. presumably, a psi-stalker who chooses to become a headhunter will not be as good at the psi-stalker abilities as a typical psi-stalker who focuses on improving their psi-stalker abilities. what we don't have any information on is how much better a psi-stalker who focuses on being a typical psi-stalker and developing those abilities might be as compared to one who doesn't.

I'm not the one whose trying very hard to convince others to turn the entire R.C.C.s into O.C.C.s, in which it contradicts, if not violates, the very purpose of the R.C.C.s, and the "rules" for character generation. O.C.C.s are humans, and R.C.C.s are not 100% human. Simple as that. R.C.C.s are only allowed certain O.C.C. skill sets in accordance to their own species. If a species is capable of expanding their area of knowledge, that is fine. We have a working education skill learning system that doesn't hinder the abilities to learn, and self-learn new things, in order to survive. But that doesn't mean an R.C.C. is going to turn 100% human. You should really ask, does an R.C.C. want to become 100% human in the first place?

As a side note, I'm ignoring your rude, slandering remarks, because it has no place in this discussion. The parenthesis section has nothing to do with me.

no he is right on the stalker being a race. However the Civilized and Wild Psi stalker classes are RCCs (you must be a Stalker to take take the class... this is the very definition of a RCC.) But Stalkers are not limited to just those classes.

An RCC is either a race that is a class unto itself (such as the Dragon) or is an OCC exclusive to a particular race (wild Psi stalker, feral dog boy, etc.)
I was mistaken on my earlier stance where the Stalker is concerned. but not on the a RCC may take an OCC or a PCC.

[dragonfett]

I'm not the one whose trying very hard to convince others to turn the entire R.C.C.s into O.C.C.s, in which it contradicts, if not violates, the very purpose of the R.C.C.s, and the "rules" for character generation. O.C.C.s are humans, and R.C.C.s are not 100% human. Simple as that. R.C.C.s are only allowed certain O.C.C. skill sets in accordance to their own species. If a species is capable of expanding their area of knowledge, that is fine. We have a working education skill learning system that doesn't hinder the abilities to learn, and self-learn new things, in order to survive. But that doesn't mean an R.C.C. is going to turn 100% human. You should really ask, does an R.C.C. want to become 100% human in the first place?

So by your definition, Elves, Dwarves, Bearmen of the North, Wolfen, etc., are all RCC's? None of these are human, they all have abilities that humans don't. Not to mention that in the RUE, it specifically states that the Psi-Stalker is an OCC, as is the Dog Boy, and the other psychic classes, where as the dragon is specifically mentioned as an RCC.

[keir451]

Howdy All!! The trick I employ is to take skills that are the same (between OCC & RCC) and treat them like the domestic skills. Specifically, if the RCC and OCC both have Land Nav. I give the chara. the higher bonus of the two skills as the "professional bonus", much like the 10% bonus given to domestic skills.
The Psi-stalker is good exmple of an RCC w/an OCC, the Psi-stalker gets to keep all his inherent psionic abilities, but gets a new set of skills in place of his original ones. Following that standard an Omaguan Oracle Cat could give up his "Oracle Cat" RCC and become a Cyber Knight, or even a Merc Soldier, instead. He'd still have his psionics as they're inborn and don't go away. So a Dragon could pick up an OCC but not lose his magic or shapeshifting abilities precisely because they're inborn.

[Shark_Force]

once again, many of you seem to be ignoring the EXPLICIT definition of what is an RCC provided by the guy who makes all the rules. if you can choose to be a different OCC, ANY OCC, then it isn't an RCC, because by definition an RCC does not get to choose an OCC it simply is what it is. if you left a hatchling dragon at the north pole, it will develop the exact same abilities and skills as it would if you left it in the middle of the sahara desert, and that is what makes it an RCC.

an RCC is not a class that is only available to a single race, it is a class that the race *must* take because being a member of that race means that you cannot possibly choose a different class.

there are many racial OCCs, which are restricted by race, but they are not RCCs, they are simply OCCs that have a race requirement.

as far as OCCs that have multiple sub-OCCs within them, yes. there are several. ley line walkers are now divided into walkers and rifters, plus the russian ley line walker. necromancers have regular necromancers and russian necromancers. mystics have regular mystics plus several orders of mystics, including mystic knights, grey seers, and one or two others iirc. there are several new types of headhunters in the rifts Canada book. there are half a dozen different kinds of tattooed men OCCs. there are several juicer OCCs, at least 3 different crazy OCCs that i can think of, and there are more full conversion cyborg OCCs than i can list off the top of my head. it is not by any means unheard of for there to be multiple OCCs within the same type of OCC.

[Jorel]

I agree with the Shark, if Kevin wrote it to exclude OCCs, then that is what it should do.

[Crucible]

It is simple.
The canon rule is that every thing given by the RCC is lost and takes only what the OCC gives.
The reasoning behind this is that the char would not have taken a OCC if they have the special abilities of the race.

This is how I have always understood it.

[Damian Magecraft]

once again, many of you seem to be ignoring the EXPLICIT definition of what is an RCC provided by the guy who makes all the rules. if you can choose to be a different OCC, ANY OCC, then it isn't an RCC, because by definition an RCC does not get to choose an OCC it simply is what it is. if you left a hatchling dragon at the north pole, it will develop the exact same abilities and skills as it would if you left it in the middle of the sahara desert, and that is what makes it an RCC.

an RCC is not a class that is only available to a single race, it is a class that the race *must* take because being a member of that race means that you cannot possibly choose a different class.

there are many racial OCCs, which are restricted by race, but they are not RCCs, they are simply OCCs that have a race requirement.

as far as OCCs that have multiple sub-OCCs within them, yes. there are several. ley line walkers are now divided into walkers and rifters, plus the russian ley line walker. necromancers have regular necromancers and russian necromancers. mystics have regular mystics plus several orders of mystics, including mystic knights, grey seers, and one or two others iirc. there are several new types of headhunters in the rifts Canada book. there are half a dozen different kinds of tattooed men OCCs. there are several juicer OCCs, at least 3 different crazy OCCs that i can think of, and there are more full conversion cyborg OCCs than i can list off the top of my head. it is not by any means unheard of for there to be multiple OCCs within the same type of OCC.

This statement is incorrect. From the same source as you are quoting (Kevin, yeah the publisher) an RCC is a race that is a class unto itself... OR a Class that is exclusive to that race. An OCC with a race restriction that cannot be overcome is an RCC. wild psi-stalker for example is a Class that no one but a Stalker can be, a human can never be a wild psi-stalker (it is biologically impossible).

[Jorel]

[color=#0000FF]This statement is incorrect. From the same source as you are quoting (Kevin, yeah the publisher) an RCC is a race that is a class unto itself... OR a Class that is exclusive to that race. An OCC with a race restriction that cannot be overcome is an RCC. wild psi-stalker for example is a Class that no one but a Stalker can be, a human can never be a wild psi-stalker (it is biologically impossible)./color]

Where is it you are referencing your information from? It might help to clarify whether it is something Kevin has recently published, or whether it is something older which he has more recently over-ruled.

[The Dark Elf]

IIRC 1st ed. PF multi-classing took the bonuses for duplicated skills (should there be any) and added those together. Could be an idea.

What does the "IIRC" stand for? And "PF"?

If this is from a book that I have, can I have a page, so I can look it up, please?

If I Recall Corecctly
Palladium Fantasy


no page numbers available as Dark Elf is mis-recalling.

PF1e WB 3 (high seas) is where "multi-classing" rules came from (the same rules are available on the cutting room floor). Those rules State that the primary skills are frozen when a new Occ is selected, duplicated skills take the higher of the 2 in percentages and the higher bonuses).

Or.... PFRPG first edition page 17 "Rules for changing OCCs" section #8 - "Example: A third level thief switches to wizard OCC. Again choosing the prowl skill he automatically adds the 4% wizard prowl bonus to his already formidable prowl abilities....."

[Damian Magecraft]

IIRC 1st ed. PF multi-classing took the bonuses for duplicated skills (should there be any) and added those together. Could be an idea.

What does the "IIRC" stand for? And "PF"?

If this is from a book that I have, can I have a page, so I can look it up, please?

If I Recall Corecctly
Palladium Fantasy


no page numbers available as Dark Elf is mis-recalling.

PF1e WB 3 (high seas) is where "multi-classing" rules came from (the same rules are available on the cutting room floor). Those rules State that the primary skills are frozen when a new Occ is selected, duplicated skills take the higher of the 2 in percentages and the higher bonuses).

Or.... PFRPG first edition page 17 "Rules for changing OCCs" section #8 - "Example: A third level thief switches to wizard OCC. Again choosing the prowl skill he automatically adds the 4% wizard prowl bonus to his already formidable prowl abilities....."

My error DE was recalling it correctly after all but High Seas 1e over rides that ruling. (Plus I have not had a 1e book for a very long time now... my last one died of over use.)

[Damian Magecraft]

This statement is incorrect. From the same source as you are quoting (Kevin, yeah the publisher) an RCC is a race that is a class unto itself... OR a Class that is exclusive to that race. An OCC with a race restriction that cannot be overcome is an RCC. wild psi-stalker for example is a Class that no one but a Stalker can be, a human can never be a wild psi-stalker (it is biologically impossible).

Where is it you are referencing your information from? It might help to clarify whether it is something Kevin has recently published, or whether it is something older which he has more recently over-ruled.

unfortunately my source is straight from the horses mouth as it were. Discussions with kevin at various cons and listening to him explain it (multiple times) when asked at the Palladium vendors booths.

The thing is honestly (now that I have had time to consider it) Shark and I are just arguing a semantics issue. His interpretation is no more incorrect than mine. I however feel That to keep from further confusing the issue (and new players) the definition should stand as follows...

RCC: a hard-coded genetic character class, or Race exclusive character class.

and By race exclusive I mean there is absolutly no way to work around the Race restriction (meaning the "OCC" is dependent on the "inborn" abilities of the race in question, Wild Psi-stalker, and Feral Dog-boy are good examples of this.)

Of course this requires the writers to be a more cognizant of the system they write for (not that this seems to be an issue with the current crop).

[The Baron of chaos]

Ya know I always thought that R.C.C. was simply a race with average racial skills, that can be changed/shifted for a specific O.C.C., generally any R.C.C. now list if a R.C.C. can shift its R.C.C. skills for a differetn O.C.C. and what O.C.C. are available.
R.C.C./D-Bees enough similar to human, list only a few basic racial skills and then list the O.C.C. that generall choose.
As Ratling like becoming city rat, or Cyber-knight being an omniversal O.C.C. as so far very few race cannot become CK if they want to, Lanotaur, Rahh-men, Wolfen..if your alignment is good enough and have psionic potential everythign is fine.

[Damian Magecraft]

Ya know I always thought that R.C.C. was simply a race with average racial skills, that can be changed/shifted for a specific O.C.C., generally any R.C.C. now list if a R.C.C. can shift its R.C.C. skills for a differetn O.C.C. and what O.C.C. are available.
R.C.C./D-Bees enough similar to human, list only a few basic racial skills and then list the O.C.C. that generall choose.
As Ratling like becoming city rat, or Cyber-knight being an omniversal O.C.C. as so far very few race cannot become CK if they want to, Lanotaur, Rahh-men, Wolfen..if your alignment is good enough and have psionic potential everythign is fine.

could you rephrase this? I am not understanding what you mean.

[The Baron of chaos]

Ya know I always thought that R.C.C. was simply a race with average racial skills, that can be changed/shifted for a specific O.C.C., generally any R.C.C. now list if a R.C.C. can shift its R.C.C. skills for a differetn O.C.C. and what O.C.C. are available.
R.C.C./D-Bees enough similar to human, list only a few basic racial skills and then list the O.C.C. that generall choose.
As Ratling like becoming city rat, or Cyber-knight being an omniversal O.C.C. as so far very few race cannot become CK if they want to, Lanotaur, Rahh-men, Wolfen..if your alignment is good enough and have psionic potential everythign is fine.

could you rephrase this? I am not understanding what you mean.[/quote

Well to put it simply I don't get the sense of this thread. I always thought that R.C.C. is simply a racial package with standard racial skills with it, the skill that the average adult speciman is expected to have. Most R.C.C. can shift this standard skills with an O.C.C. skills, and in the recent years books is always listed if they can do that and if there is a limitation to the O.C.C. they can choose from. Generally only minimal racial skills are kept, generally native language and some social skills.
CK is the most widely available O.C.C.
Mind Melter is a P.C.C. available to any race that has such psionic potentional
Any spellcasting O.C.C. is generally available, too

[Jorel]

This statement is incorrect. From the same source as you are quoting (Kevin, yeah the publisher) an RCC is a race that is a class unto itself... OR a Class that is exclusive to that race. An OCC with a race restriction that cannot be overcome is an RCC. wild psi-stalker for example is a Class that no one but a Stalker can be, a human can never be a wild psi-stalker (it is biologically impossible).

Where is it you are referencing your information from? It might help to clarify whether it is something Kevin has recently published, or whether it is something older which he has more recently over-ruled.

unfortunately my source is straight from the horses mouth as it were. Discussions with kevin at various cons and listening to him explain it (multiple times) when asked at the Palladium vendors booths.

The thing is honestly (now that I have had time to consider it) Shark and I are just arguing a semantics issue. His interpretation is no more incorrect than mine. I however feel That to keep from further confusing the issue (and new players) the definition should stand as follows...

RCC: a hard-coded genetic character class, or Race exclusive character class.

and By race exclusive I mean there is absolutly no way to work around the Race restriction (meaning the "OCC" is dependent on the "inborn" abilities of the race in question, Wild Psi-stalker, and Feral Dog-boy are good examples of this.)

Of course this requires the writers to be a more cognizant of the system they write for (not that this seems to be an issue with the current crop).

When was the last time you actually spoke to Kevin about it face to face? As in, What year was that? Things change over time, as do definitions.

[Damian Magecraft]

This statement is incorrect. From the same source as you are quoting (Kevin, yeah the publisher) an RCC is a race that is a class unto itself... OR a Class that is exclusive to that race. An OCC with a race restriction that cannot be overcome is an RCC. wild psi-stalker for example is a Class that no one but a Stalker can be, a human can never be a wild psi-stalker (it is biologically impossible).

Where is it you are referencing your information from? It might help to clarify whether it is something Kevin has recently published, or whether it is something older which he has more recently over-ruled.

unfortunately my source is straight from the horses mouth as it were. Discussions with kevin at various cons and listening to him explain it (multiple times) when asked at the Palladium vendors booths.

The thing is honestly (now that I have had time to consider it) Shark and I are just arguing a semantics issue. His interpretation is no more incorrect than mine. I however feel That to keep from further confusing the issue (and new players) the definition should stand as follows...

RCC: a hard-coded genetic character class, or Race exclusive character class.

and By race exclusive I mean there is absolutly no way to work around the Race restriction (meaning the "OCC" is dependent on the "inborn" abilities of the race in question, Wild Psi-stalker, and Feral Dog-boy are good examples of this.)

Of course this requires the writers to be a more cognizant of the system they write for (not that this seems to be an issue with the current crop).

When was the last time you actually spoke to Kevin about it face to face? As in, What year was that? Things change over time, as do definitions.

08 open house. oops miss spoke...
07 open house.

[Damian Magecraft]

Ya know I always thought that R.C.C. was simply a race with average racial skills, that can be changed/shifted for a specific O.C.C., generally any R.C.C. now list if a R.C.C. can shift its R.C.C. skills for a differetn O.C.C. and what O.C.C. are available.
R.C.C./D-Bees enough similar to human, list only a few basic racial skills and then list the O.C.C. that generall choose.
As Ratling like becoming city rat, or Cyber-knight being an omniversal O.C.C. as so far very few race cannot become CK if they want to, Lanotaur, Rahh-men, Wolfen..if your alignment is good enough and have psionic potential everythign is fine.

could you rephrase this? I am not understanding what you mean.[/quote

Well to put it simply I don't get the sense of this thread. I always thought that R.C.C. is simply a racial package with standard racial skills with it, the skill that the average adult speciman is expected to have. Most R.C.C. can shift this standard skills with an O.C.C. skills, and in the recent years books is always listed if they can do that and if there is a limitation to the O.C.C. they can choose from. Generally only minimal racial skills are kept, generally native language and some social skills.
CK is the most widely available O.C.C.
Mind Melter is a P.C.C. available to any race that has such psionic potentional
Any spellcasting O.C.C. is generally available, too

A common mistake... furthered by authors such as CJ and Bill not getting the difference between a race and a Racial Class and it being missed in editing. An Elf is a race. A Dragon Is an RCC. Mechanically speaking the Race has so many abilities and advantages that it is a class unto itself. A dragon (for example) can cast spells not because it is a Mage class but because it is a Dragon. Does that help?

[Damian Magecraft]

Just to make sure everyone is on the same page so to speak...

An RCC is a Race. This statement is true.
A race is not always an RCC is a true statement as well.
A race may take any available OCC or PCC. (and in some cases an RCC),
An RCC is always an RCC It may never take a different class.

[Jorel]

I agree with the point that OCC = an occupation, not a race definition of human.

[Jorel]

As the most average/generic of RCCs that they don't need to be labeled as such.

[The Baron of chaos]

A common mistake... furthered by authors such as CJ and Bill not getting the difference between a race and a Racial Class and it being missed in editing. An Elf is a race. A Dragon Is an RCC. Mechanically speaking the Race has so many abilities and advantages that it is a class unto itself. A dragon (for example) can cast spells not because it is a Mage class but because it is a Dragon. Does that help?

Weeeelllll, no actually it does confuse me a little bit more than i was before . But I think I roughly got it. It is all matter on how damn powerfull a race is right?

I agree with the point that OCC = an occupation, not a race definition of human.

Well that's how I always seen it too. But lot of peole here seem to think otherwise.

In game terms? 3d6 on the stats, with the possibility of an extra d6, height & weight ranges, add personal descriptive details to taste. No skill set or bonuses, no powers except for a possibly-unlimited OCC selection, squishy. j/k. In many cases, the RUE OCCs represent a human who chose to do some occupation X instead of some occupation Y. There is no racial difference between a Scholar or a Coalition Soldier, despite Coalition propaganda. The generic folk don't try to switch careers, so they'll usually only have one "OCC", or a non-OCC for really generic types.
If you wanted to break it out, you could say that your Secondary skills are a lot more related to your race than any real aspect of your OCC. Humans have no particular bonuses, and access to most everything that doesn't specifically limit it.

Well said, Humans in 99% of RPG are the point zero of all races, completely neutral, with only advantage to choose whatever pathway they want, no matter what .

[Damian Magecraft]

A common mistake... furthered by authors such as CJ and Bill not getting the difference between a race and a Racial Class and it being missed in editing. An Elf is a race. A Dragon Is an RCC. Mechanically speaking the Race has so many abilities and advantages that it is a class unto itself. A dragon (for example) can cast spells not because it is a Mage class but because it is a Dragon. Does that help?

Weeeelllll, no actually it does confuse me a little bit more than i was before . But I think I roughly got it. It is all matter on how damn powerfull a race is right?

Mechanically speaking yes.

[Wildfire]

wow the answer is I guess different strokes for different folks

but an RCC is to me simply a racial occ that only that race can take. inante powers are something different. Stalker can be a cyber knight mind you that would be one patient as hell stalker, or he could be any other non-magic or omaster psychic class with out to much problems just as an elf could be a monk or a mage however. this is evident as I belive the psi-stalker has an off shoot of the psi-slayer from Psiscape

[Shark_Force]

This statement is incorrect. From the same source as you are quoting (Kevin, yeah the publisher) an RCC is a race that is a class unto itself... OR a Class that is exclusive to that race. An OCC with a race restriction that cannot be overcome is an RCC. wild psi-stalker for example is a Class that no one but a Stalker can be, a human can never be a wild psi-stalker (it is biologically impossible).

Where is it you are referencing your information from? It might help to clarify whether it is something Kevin has recently published, or whether it is something older which he has more recently over-ruled.

unfortunately my source is straight from the horses mouth as it were. Discussions with kevin at various cons and listening to him explain it (multiple times) when asked at the Palladium vendors booths.

The thing is honestly (now that I have had time to consider it) Shark and I are just arguing a semantics issue. His interpretation is no more incorrect than mine. I however feel That to keep from further confusing the issue (and new players) the definition should stand as follows...

RCC: a hard-coded genetic character class, or Race exclusive character class.

and By race exclusive I mean there is absolutly no way to work around the Race restriction (meaning the "OCC" is dependent on the "inborn" abilities of the race in question, Wild Psi-stalker, and Feral Dog-boy are good examples of this.)

Of course this requires the writers to be a more cognizant of the system they write for (not that this seems to be an issue with the current crop).

funny, because when he was writing the rulebooks he explicitly tells us, in writing, in a location where he cannot take it back without attracting a lot of notice, that it isn't one or the other, it's just one, and that one is the hard-coded genetic character class. he then goes on to tell us explicitly that this is the reason dog boy is an OCC and not an RCC (and if you'd care to suggest how you can be a dog boy OCC without being a dog boy racially, you're welcome to try), and then a few pages later we come across the psi-stalker and it is also an OCC.

your answer has absolutely no method to verify accuracy. mine, well, you can just open up the rule books (which, funnily enough, are the standard place to check for the rules for the game; go figure) and read, and it very explicitly tells you what makes something an RCC, and mentions that many things which were previously classified as an RCC should not have been classified as such. at best, your answer is probably old, and comes from a time when kevin was apparently not very clear on what an RCC actually meant (hence the large number of RCCs that should not have been RCCs he mentioned). we have, in writing, a very clear explanation of what an RCC is. i'm not about to exchange that for something which the writer himself has publicly, in the rulebooks, announced to be wrong.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. Just a small note. In addition to the "Designer's Note" on page 148 of R:UE, there is also a R.C.C. description on page 278. Just so people can review it because the wording is different, and may give people a different interpretation. Anyways, that's all for now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Zer0 Kay]

OK rules state unless an RCC says they can take an OCC they can't... but the final call is up to the GM. Isn't that just like Palladium? Leaving it up to the GM.

[dragonfett]

You guys know you've been saying that unless some other race can take a class, it is considered an RCC. Well concerning the Dog Boy OCC, at least, you DON'T need to be a Dog Boy, just need to look like one as a Wolfen (and Changelings, Coyles, and Kankoren I am sure) can take the Dog Boy OCC. I know this because A) Rifts Conversion Book 1 says that they can, and B) There have been official instances where there have been references to a Wolfen as a Dog Boy.

As far as the Psi-Stalker goes, I have the feeling that if a human (or some other race, or RCC if you guys prefer) could get the same skills as the Wild Psi-Stalker skills if they were raised in a tribe of Wild Psi-Stalkers. As far as the Civilized Psi-Stalker goes, the only reason no other race would be able to get that training (with the possible exception of an Auto-G), is because that no one is going to train them. It's not so much a racial barrier as it is a social barrier. I honestly don't see any reason why some other race couldn't train in those skills.

[Shark_Force]

The Dog Boy and Psi-Stalkers can be found in the R.C.C. Section of the original book.

yes. that's very nice. and in the most recent, updated set of rules we have available, it tells us "oh by the way, there's some stuff that we once called RCCs, but which aren't actually RCCs". it then goes on to specifically mention that dog boys are one of those things, and a few pages later, the psi-stalker has also been made into an RCC.

if i used a physics textbook from 20 years ago and treated it as being 100% accurate, then attempted to go to all the physicists in the world today and tell them they don't know what they're talking about because i have an old, out-of-date physics textbook that disagrees with them, i can't imagine anyone would take me seriously. in fact, i'd probably be laughed out of any meeting of physicists where i attempted to push this kind of nonsense on them.

so if you want to take an old, outdated rulebook and treat it as the ultimate and most accurate resource, even though current rulebooks pretty much explicitly tell us that in the specific area of contention the old rulebook was wrong, well, that's fine; you can think whatever you want... just don't be surprised if i don't give you any credibility based on your choice to use an outdated set of rules over the new ones.

[Crucible]

RCC+OCC=OCC

[drewkitty ~..~]

RCC+OCC=OCC

It would have to be, "RCC with skills pick to do the job of an OCC is similar to an OCC."
Or simplified, "RCC + skills of the OCC is almost an OCC."