RCC + OCC = ?

[Crucible]

RCC+OCC=OCC

It would have to be, "RCC with skills pick to do the job of an OCC is similar to an OCC."
Or simplified, "RCC + skills of the OCC is almost an OCC."

I always cut all of the RCC skills completely and let the guys get the special abilities. You chose an OCC, it means that you are specialized. No RCC skills. Flat out.

[Damian Magecraft]

RCC+OCC=OCC

It would have to be, "RCC with skills pick to do the job of an OCC is similar to an OCC."
Or simplified, "RCC + skills of the OCC is almost an OCC."

I always cut all of the RCC skills completely and let the guys get the special abilities. You chose an OCC, it means that you are specialized. No RCC skills. Flat out.

so in your game I can be a Dragon Glitterboy pilot? or a Dragon Mind Melter? Or how about a Dragon Rogue Scientist?

[Crucible]

RCC+OCC=OCC

It would have to be, "RCC with skills pick to do the job of an OCC is similar to an OCC."
Or simplified, "RCC + skills of the OCC is almost an OCC."

I always cut all of the RCC skills completely and let the guys get the special abilities. You chose an OCC, it means that you are specialized. No RCC skills. Flat out.

so in your game I can be a Dragon Glitterboy pilot? or a Dragon Mind Melter? Or how about a Dragon Rogue Scientist?

LOL!!! Its like a mission on this board to complicate things huh?

[Jorel]

Isn't the Dragon the exception, not the rule. They have their own HtH!

[Damian Magecraft]

I always cut all of the RCC skills completely and let the guys get the special abilities. You chose an OCC, it means that you are specialized. No RCC skills. Flat out.

so in your game I can be a Dragon Glitterboy pilot? or a Dragon Mind Melter? Or how about a Dragon Rogue Scientist?

LOL!!! Its like a mission on this board to complicate things huh?

I am not the one complicating things...
The Highlighted statement (your statement I might point out) complicates things. I am merely pointing out the complication. By the wording I can have a Dragon with all the casting and Psi-ability and still be a skill monkey as well.

[Damian Magecraft]

Isn't the Dragon the exception, not the rule. They have their own HtH!

Dragons are the class that proves the rule.
I am addressing someones house rule.

[Jorel]

I always cut all of the RCC skills completely and let the guys get the special abilities. You chose an OCC, it means that you are specialized. No RCC skills. Flat out.

so in your game I can be a Dragon Glitterboy pilot? or a Dragon Mind Melter? Or how about a Dragon Rogue Scientist?

LOL!!! Its like a mission on this board to complicate things huh?

I am not the one complicating things...
The Highlighted statement (your statement I might point out) complicates things. I am merely pointing out the complication. By the wording I can have a Dragon with all the casting and Psi-ability and still be a skill monkey as well.

As an NPC I don't see why not, Dragons do live a very long time, and may find a want or need to pick up a trade to acquire something they really want, or maybe they have a greed for knowledge. As a PC no, not according to the rules.

Edit: Though if there is a Rogue Scholar around to teach them, then I guess by the rules I think it can work.

[dragonfett]

However, most dragons are played pretty much from birth, where they only have a handful of skills that they "remembered" from their parents.

[Zer0 Kay]

the problem comes when you try to figure out which are racial abilities, and which are racial OCC abilities, because there isn't anything that actually tells you what the difference is. so essentially, the GM has to decide.

I'm pretty sure the R.C.C. skills description accurately gives what the R.C.C. can learn, and what it already knows. I really don't see any problem here.

well, to give you an example directly from RUE, look at the psi-stalker OCC. now then, the psi-stalker is clearly a race. several of the racial OCC abilities are clearly racial abilities. now tell me, what does a psi-stalker (race) headhunter OCC look like, statwise? which OCC abilities are kept, which are lost, and of those which they keep, are they kept exactly the same, or are they not quite as good (for example, do their sensing abilities progress at a slower rate, have shorter range, etc?)

No they are borne with them.

now, you may or may not be able to come up with answers for those questions. what you won't be able to come up with are answers to those questions which are supported by any rules anywhere, because there are no rules for what a psi-stalker's abilities would be if they don't take the psi-stalker OCC (even though it clearly states that they can in fact do so).

There are only 2 versions of Psi-Stalkers.
Civilized (trained by the CS)
And Wild.
any attempts to "cross" class an RCC IMO is nothing more than an attempt at munchkinism. (gee this RCC is not godly enough for me I wanna cross it with Y class to make it uber.)

R.C.C. taking an O.C.C. is covered in three books that I can think of . One if Rifts Atlantis for the true atlantian, and Rifts under seas for the Sea Inquisitor and the sea Titan an a couple others I think. then I think in Rifts lone Star Dog boys are are sed to be able to take up an O.C.C. if they are borne feral. There is nothing wrong with an R.C.C. taking an O.C.C. you just need to use common sense. Psi Stalkers who take the Head Hunter or Justice Ranger O.C.C. are not unreasonable to me as both of thees would put the Psi Stalker in contact with there food source and is also in keeping with there combat oriented life stile, But no, they should not be allowed to be a lay line walker and don't EVEN get me started on the Psycho Juicer . Now a feral Dog Boy/Ley Line Walker is not crazy and a True Atlantian Operator is not to bad either. Now a Dragon Hatchling with an O.C.C. is just stupid. If a player would read past all the powers and ability's they would see that a dragon is already perfect in its own eyes and will only learn what it needs to get what it wants at that time. As far as munchy PC's that's a problem with humans and there O.C.C.'s as well. Like those Major psionic Vagabond Sea Inquisitor True Atlantian SAMAS pilot with the Rune Rail gun and the Soul Drinking Vibro Sword . Sure, it can get out of control, but do what Kevin S. recommends and use common sense and have fun.

GM's guide

[Zer0 Kay]

You guys know you've been saying that unless some other race can take a class, it is considered an RCC. Well concerning the Dog Boy OCC, at least, you DON'T need to be a Dog Boy, just need to look like one as a Wolfen (and Changelings, Coyles, and Kankoren I am sure) can take the Dog Boy OCC. I know this because A) Rifts Conversion Book 1 says that they can, and B) There have been official instances where there have been references to a Wolfen as a Dog Boy.

As far as the Psi-Stalker goes, I have the feeling that if a human (or some other race, or RCC if you guys prefer) could get the same skills as the Wild Psi-Stalker skills if they were raised in a tribe of Wild Psi-Stalkers. As far as the Civilized Psi-Stalker goes, the only reason no other race would be able to get that training (with the possible exception of an Auto-G), is because that no one is going to train them. It's not so much a racial barrier as it is a social barrier. I honestly don't see any reason why some other race couldn't train in those skills.

That is interesting I just noticed that. That is a huge difference between the RMB and RUE. I always assumed that the psychic classes to include DogBoys were RCCs because the the PCCs from BtS got lumped in to RCCs as in you are born with psychic abilities you don't learn them from a book, while magic is aquired, this is also why Crazies are an OCC and not a PCC/RCC as psychic powers CAN be aquired that way.

So now it seems silly to me as a non-psychic Wolfen from PFRPG can now come to Rifts Earth sneak into the Dog Boy Program and boom they're suddenly psychic.

Mind you that RCC was an entirely Rifts concept. So they changed the definition to what? A class that can be taken based on your race selection, rather than a class that is born with specific abilities which may include psychics of any race or a skill set only available to a given species?

So not that this is important but I'm house ruling that the psychic classes not included those caused by implants are PCCs to include the Dog Boy.

[Hot Rod]

Frogboy wrote:

Spoiler:

R.C.C. taking an O.C.C. is covered in three books that I can think of . One if Rifts Atlantis for the true atlantian, and Rifts under seas for the Sea Inquisitor and the sea Titan an a couple others I think. then I think in Rifts lone Star Dog boys are are sed to be able to take up an O.C.C. if they are borne feral. There is nothing wrong with an R.C.C. taking an O.C.C. you just need to use common sense. Psi Stalkers who take the Head Hunter or Justice Ranger O.C.C. are not unreasonable to me as both of thees would put the Psi Stalker in contact with there food source and is also in keeping with there combat oriented life stile, But no, they should not be allowed to be a lay line walker and don't EVEN get me started on the Psycho Juicer . Now a feral Dog Boy/Ley Line Walker is not crazy and a True Atlantian Operator is not to bad either.

Now a Dragon Hatchling with an O.C.C. is just stupid. If a player would read past all the powers and ability's they would see that a dragon is already perfect in its own eyes and will only learn what it needs to get what it wants at that time. As far as munchy PC's that's a problem with humans and there O.C.C.'s as well. Like those Major psionic Vagabond Sea Inquisitor True Atlantian SAMAS pilot with the Rune Rail gun and the Soul Drinking Vibro Sword . Sure, it can get out of control, but do what Kevin S. recommends and use common sense and have fun.

Since 70% of adult dragons (citing the "adult great horned dragon" example "Dragons & Gods" pg29) know at least one other area of magic (such as Summoner or Diabolist) and a dragon becomes 'adult' at L9-14 why should a dragon hatchling taking an OCC be a problem? Particularly as long as he uses the 3 level 'training' period, dragon xp table to advance that magic OCC (unless the occ is costlier!), and keeps the OCC less than or equal to half his dragon level [I allow switching back & forth, as long as the player has set his current class before the session]) Hatchlings want to learn, there's only 2 ways to do that, learn more of the same, or study a new path.

I haven't run into other RCCs wanting to start as an OCC, but I would probably treat them the same. (Must start as the RCC, change later.) I've been searching the FAQs for info on this & not really finding much. I think the "RCC that states it can take an OCC" would be demigod & godling (and no others that I've read, though I haven't read 1/4 of the books out there.)

Damian Magecraft wrote:
Just to make sure everyone is on the same page so to speak...

An RCC is a Race. This statement is true.
A race is not always an RCC is a true statement as well.
A race may take any available OCC or PCC. (and in some cases an RCC),
An RCC is always an RCC It may never take a different class.

IMO an RCC is simply a racially restricted class that the race starts as (they can switch but all abilities become frozen until they return to it) i.e. a Dragon without the Dragon RCC would be ridiculous. (If a PC insisted [& didn't get kicked from the game] he'd get the physical shape & stats but none of the draconic abilities inc Breath, shapechanging, magic use, etc... He'd be considered 'brain damaged' by his cousins)

Granted dragons may be an exception to RCCs with OCCs, but I don't see the need for it myself.

Oh and "Hi all", new to posting on these boards.

HR

[Zer0 Kay]

OK rules state unless an RCC says they can take an OCC they can't... but the final call is up to the GM. Isn't that just like Palladium? Leaving it up to the GM.

Yep, just like them. However, I totally understand their reasoning with this one. The rule that states that came quite late into the game-line, meaning a TON of previous books did not have their RCC's written with that in mind. In the oldest books, there IS no listing on RCCs saying what OCCs that race can take. But newer books started to include this info. So somewhere along the line, Kevin added in a clarification rule that states unless an RCC says it can take an OCC, then it can't -- but he left it up to the GM's call, because the older books didn't list that info on many races that should have it. So... big paragraph explaining that and confusing the issue, so as to remove the need to revise, update, and reprint old books to reflect the new rules... and then there's also that new definition of what is actually an R.C.C. from the RUE to complicate matters further....

Basically, what the GM has to do now, is take a look at the release date of the book, and if it's from prior to the rule mentioned by Zer0 Kay above, the GM should compare the race to newer races and decide if it too should have a list of allowable OCCs like all the newer races have (I am pretty sure SOME of them were updated in DeeBees of North America, but that book does not contain every race and RCC from the older books).

These days, as GMs we have to ask ourselves, 'Is this an RCC because it's simply a non-human or alien race, or is it an RCC because it's a creature of magic like a demon or dragon, or because the nature of this race gives it a ton of racial abilities? The way I handle it, is to ask, What Would Star Trek Do? If the race in question is just basically a human with some makeup or a mask and maybe one or two non-human abilites, like say the romulans/klingons/baatorians/ferenghi, then yes, it should have a list of allowable NPCs, like most of the races in newer Palladium games have. If the race in question is clearly NOT just a Man in a Mask, like say, the Q or Borg who have a whole host of powers and abilities that humans and human-like mere mortals don't have, then it is an actual RCC and should not be able to take an OOC.
Does that make sense? What Would Gandalf Do works as a method too, if you're a fantasy dude that's never watched Star Trek. Is it just an elf or a dwarf or similar race (ie Noro, Wolfen, Uteni Alien)? Feel free to let the player pick an OCC that makes sense. Is it a Dragon or a Wringwraith? Then it's an RCC and can't pick one of the standard OCCs, and should have an RCC skill program instead.

Hmm... OR we can assume that "but final call is up to the GM" means in all instances like my Corellian RCC is smuggler and in available OCCs it only says Imperial Officer but I want to be a Nerf Herder then the GM can give the green light... or not.

[Zer0 Kay]

RCC+OCC=OCC

It would have to be, "RCC with skills pick to do the job of an OCC is similar to an OCC."
Or simplified, "RCC + skills of the OCC is almost an OCC."

I always cut all of the RCC skills completely and let the guys get the special abilities. You chose an OCC, it means that you are specialized. No RCC skills. Flat out.

so in your game I can be a Dragon Glitterboy pilot? or a Dragon Mind Melter? Or how about a Dragon Rogue Scientist?

That's how we often do it lately too, Crucible. Simplifies things greatly for the GM, and makes more sense to me, with most races.

However, we would not usually apply that to races like Dragons or Demons. I wasn't even going to TOUCH the dragon discussion in this thread, as common sense removes the need for us to even argue about it in the first place.
Plus, I think other posters are clearly talking about Races that have been mislabelled as RCCS instead of actual R.C.C.s. and I doubt Dragon Mind Melters is what Crucible or anybody else had in mind...

But, here goes...

On the other hand, is there any particular rational reason within the versimilatude of the game world why a dragon could not learn to pliot a Glitterboy or other PA or vehicle? The writeups on dragons state that they are not inclined to do such things, but that does not mean it is impossible, or that there isn't a dragon out there SOMEWHERE in the megaverse who has chosen to do so. (The Rifts books, just like the D&D books, are CHOCK FULL of canon examples of 'exceptions to the normal rule' when it comes to NPCs doing something that it says normally their Race or RCC would never do! There are good demons, evil angels, Noli-Bushmen and Greote Cyber-knights and countless other examples!)

So long as it's a dragon type that can shapeshift into humanoid form (and maintain it for a good amount of time, you wouldn't want to limit yourself to only 2 hour sorties afterall), there's no reason why it couldn't learn to fly PA if it chose to do so. Sure, most dragons don't feel the need or desire to. But what if you had a dragon that was in disguise for the long term, like that bloke in the England book? (There's actually nearly a dozern Chiang Ku in the England book alone that are described as being permanently disguised as humans or other mortals. I could dig through other books to list off half a dozen other examples of 'dragons in disguise') A dragon in his position or one similar to it may very well see the need (if not the desire-- he doesn't have to LIKE it in order to do it!) to learn to pilot PA or other modern vehicles. The gig would be up pretty quickly if the 'human' or 'elf' refused to drive himself anywhere, becaues 'It is beneath me to fly in a man-toy vehicle!'.... Granted, in most cases, this problem can be solved by selecting the appropriate skills upon level up, but that doesn't always work.

What if a dragon wanted to learn Techno-Wizardry? Please don't try to tell us this is against the rules, Damien, because there are several places in printed Palladium books where it is clear some dragons ARE interested in learning techno-wizardry, and depending on which book you're looking at, it even clearly states that having the TW OCC at half level is an option for several types of dragons. This is how the Rifts Conversion is listed on several dragon types in Dragons & Gods, and also how it read in my original copy of Conversion Book 1 (but my newer copy of CB1 does not indicate this). It does not clearly say HOW you apply the TW OCC (or other magic OOCs mentioned as options) to the dragon character, just that it's at half the level of the dragon's RCC, so it's a tricky custom-conversion on the part of the GM to get such a PC or NPC statted out. But it looks to me like that's a canon example of how some dragons sometimes can have an OCC.

And really, it should not be any surprise to anyone that some dragons somewhere are interested in Technowizardry or that many Rifts players are always interested in making Dragon Techno-Wiz's-- one of the oldest Rifts books in my extensive collection has a beautiful full page illustration of what appears to be... a Dragon Techno-wizard!

If canon states that certain types of dragons can sometimes take magic or psychic OCCs, as per Dragons & Gods, then why would it be unreasonable for dragons to be able to pick up other OOCs as well?

Being in disguise or undercover is far from the only good reason a dragon could have to need to or want to learn the professional class of another race. Look at the Siege on Tolkeen. That was a situation where many dragons worked with and cooperated with 'lesser races' on an almost unheard of scale -- but it's NOT the only canon example of a dragon that has chosen to champion the cause of lesser mortal races, instead of just 'being a dragon' and either ignoring them or eating them. Sure, sometimes said dragons could simply help out their mortal allies/leaders by simply 'being dragons', but to me that does not reflect the way some NPC dragons in Rifts are described (Plato and other dragons in Lazlo come to mind in addition to the ones in the Federation and Tolkeen).

Wow I'd allow the Dragon GB or the Dragon Dedicated Martial Artist and even the Dragon Diabolist, Techno-Wizard or Warlock but I wouldn't allow the Dragon Mind Melter essentially any class... classically considered an OCC but not RCCs or PCCs heck even MOS's from other game but never the RCC or PCCs UNLESS and that obviously is a big unless (:thwak: bad pun) the dragon as per the species already has the psychic powers. So IIRC a dragon could be a PCC psychic sensitive from BtS or a Physical Psychic but as they don't receive the special abilities of the burster or other "special" or rather uber PCC classes like those in Psyscape they can not take it as an additional class. This makes it stupid for a dragon even with all psychic powers to take one of the BtS PCCs as their skill set is trumped by the other classes. So the smart thing would be for the Dragon with all psychic powers to choose parapsychologist or other OCC that has better skills as the PCC isn't enhancing what he already has and would rather be more like a statement of stupidity "yeah I already had the powers and just didn't feel like getting more and/or better skills."

[Damian Magecraft]

yes. that's very nice. and in the most recent, updated set of rules we have available, it tells us "oh by the way, there's some stuff that we once called RCCs, but which aren't actually RCCs". it then goes on to specifically mention that dog boys are one of those things, and a few pages later, the psi-stalker has also been made into an RCC.

If you are referring to the Canines in the Rifts Conversion Book. That is a huge mistake. If you haven't noticed already, the Canines and Dog Boys are particular the same category of species. Meaning these two "R.C.C.s" are compatible with each other. This doesn't make the Dog Boys an O.C.C. It just means the Dog Boy available skills sets can be learned for these other "similar" R.C.C.s

Again, . . . R.C.C.s are not O.C.C.s The R.C.C.s will not become human, . . . like ever.

you keep confusing RCC with RACE.
Wolfen, Coyles, kankorn are not and have never been RCCs.
Race does not equal RCC!
That is where half the dang confusion over whether an RCC can take an OCC or not.

sorry for the rant but that annoys me to end.

[Zer0 Kay]

yes. that's very nice. and in the most recent, updated set of rules we have available, it tells us "oh by the way, there's some stuff that we once called RCCs, but which aren't actually RCCs". it then goes on to specifically mention that dog boys are one of those things, and a few pages later, the psi-stalker has also been made into an RCC.

If you are referring to the Canines in the Rifts Conversion Book. That is a huge mistake. If you haven't noticed already, the Canines and Dog Boys are particular the same category of species. Meaning these two "R.C.C.s" are compatible with each other. This doesn't make the Dog Boys an O.C.C. It just means the Dog Boy available skills sets can be learned for these other "similar" R.C.C.s

Again, . . . R.C.C.s are not O.C.C.s The R.C.C.s will not become human, . . . like ever.

umm... in the RUE the Dog Boy is now an OCC not an RCC.

R.C.C.s were human as the psychics were human, they weren't some alien race or a different species. R.C.C. at that time and for lack of a clear definition simply meant it was a class you were born into and couldn't learn later in life OR a skill set that is specific to a species... again born into it and couldn't just learn/take the RCC later.

[Damian Magecraft]

I think that aspect of this game annoys us all, Damien, so no need for an apology.

A lot of Rifts books seem confused on the issue, listing races as R.C.C.'s when they shouldn't be, or listing them as an R.C.C. but forgetting to include the list of allowable OCCs. So it's no surprise to me the players get confused when even the dudes that write the books do too. Heh.

I REALLY wish the RUE had included a comprehensive list of ALL non-human races from ALL previous rifts books, clearly showing whether they are an RCC or just a race, and also clearly stating if they can select an OOC or not, and if so which OCCs are available without special GM houseruling/permission so I don't have to search through 30 other books whenever a player asks me 'Can I make X?'. a 2 to 4 page list like that would have been much more clear as to what is 'canon' or not than what we got, which instead of clearing the issue up, seems to have only confused people even more. I would have even been happy for just a list showing whether it was a 'race' or a full blown R.C.C.

That comes from the writers not being conversant with the system and from missing the confusion in editing.

[Zer0 Kay]

I think that aspect of this game annoys us all, Damien, so no need for an apology.

A lot of Rifts books seem confused on the issue, listing races as R.C.C.'s when they shouldn't be, or listing them as an R.C.C. but forgetting to include the list of allowable OCCs. So it's no surprise to me the players get confused when even the dudes that write the books do too. Heh.

I REALLY wish the RUE had included a comprehensive list of ALL non-human races from ALL previous rifts books, clearly showing whether they are an RCC or just a race, and also clearly stating if they can select an OOC or not, and if so which OCCs are available without special GM houseruling/permission so I don't have to search through 30 other books whenever a player asks me 'Can I make X?'. a 2 to 4 page list like that would have been much more clear as to what is 'canon' or not than what we got, which instead of clearing the issue up, seems to have only confused people even more. I would have even been happy for just a list showing whether it was a 'race' or a full blown R.C.C.

For RUE or RMB definition of RCC?
RMB if you have to be born with the talent or as a particular species to get the class its an RCC
RUE if you have to be born as a particular species to get the class it is an RCC
So if it just listed stats and powers then it is a race if it lists stats and powers and skill selections it is an RCC (i.e. if it has everything except equipment to make a character it is an RCC, if you do everything listed and your skill section is completely blank or only as 3 or 4 skills its a race.)

As I said earlier the psychics and dog boy should have either remained RCCs or they should have brought back Psychic Character Class PCC as according to Palladium you can't just study to become a psychic you have to be born with the capability.

[Damian Magecraft]

I think that aspect of this game annoys us all, Damien, so no need for an apology.

A lot of Rifts books seem confused on the issue, listing races as R.C.C.'s when they shouldn't be, or listing them as an R.C.C. but forgetting to include the list of allowable OCCs. So it's no surprise to me the players get confused when even the dudes that write the books do too. Heh.

I REALLY wish the RUE had included a comprehensive list of ALL non-human races from ALL previous rifts books, clearly showing whether they are an RCC or just a race, and also clearly stating if they can select an OOC or not, and if so which OCCs are available without special GM houseruling/permission so I don't have to search through 30 other books whenever a player asks me 'Can I make X?'. a 2 to 4 page list like that would have been much more clear as to what is 'canon' or not than what we got, which instead of clearing the issue up, seems to have only confused people even more. I would have even been happy for just a list showing whether it was a 'race' or a full blown R.C.C.

For RUE or RMB definition of RCC?
RMB if you have to be born with the talent or as a particular species to get the class its an RCC
RUE if you have to be born as a particular species to get the class it is an RCC
So if it just listed stats and powers then it is a race if it lists stats and powers and skill selections it is an RCC (i.e. if it has everything except equipment to make a character it is an RCC, if you do everything listed and your skill section is completely blank or only as 3 or 4 skills its a race.)

As I said earlier the psychics and dog boy should have either remained RCCs or they should have brought back Psychic Character Class PCC as according to Palladium you can't just study to become a psychic you have to be born with the capability.

I heartily agree.

[Damian Magecraft]

No, he was referring to the Rifts Ultimate Edition, the updated main book for Rifts. Sorry man, but Shark Force is right, the RUE does indeed tell us that Dog Boys are no longer an R.C.C. and that they, along with lots of other races, should never have been classified as an R.C.C. in the first place (Unfortunately they did not include a simple LIST of all races that were previously stated as RCCs but are no longer considered such, it just mentions a few examples and leaves it up to each GM to determine the rest of them). Perhaps you should read the RUE before continuing this line of argument with him.

As far as the 'Wolfen' who has the Dog Boy OCC that he mentioned previously, I remember reading about him too, but don't remember which book he appears in. Probably an NPC in one of the Tolkeen books or Coalition War Campaign or Lonestar. He's like a sergeant or important NCO in charge of a dog pack, iirc.
It's definitely NOT from the Rifts Conversion Book.

So the definition of the human species has become lost in translation in the Ultimate Edition? The purpose for the R.C.C.s was to classified other species not 100% human. It was so simple to understand. I don't have the Ultimate Edition Book. My arguments come from the original book, where I don't have much trouble understanding it, especially when it comes to the differences between O.C.C.s (humans) and R.C.C.s (not 100% humans).

For Canines and Dog Packs, . . . they are in the same species category, which doesn't surprise me one bit that both skills sets can mirror each other. Under these R.C.C.s, they can choose other O.C.C. skill sets, stated in there profiling for character generation.

you keep confusing RCC with RACE.
Wolfen, Coyles, kankorn are not and have never been RCCs.
Race does not equal RCC!
That is where half the dang confusion over whether an RCC can take an OCC or not..

R.C.C.s are for other species not 100% human. The R.C.C.s, through character generation, can choose O.C.C. skill sets that are made available to them. If you are referring to the percentages of O.C.C. skill sets under a single R.C.C., that doesn't make them in it's entirety an O.C.C. An R.C.C. is an R.C.C. Nothing more, or less. R.C.C.s will not ever become an O.C.C., which is human. That's what I understand when it comes to character generation.

I mean, what part of O.C.C. crossing do you not understand? A Coalition Military Specialists, who wasn't born with the proper abilities, simply cannot become a "Ley Line Walker" (Which by the way, Step 4 "only" deals in "psionics" and not "magic" in general.).

That was never the intention of a RCC.
Your continued instance that race = RCC is only muddling the issue.
non-human does not equal RCC.
what does this have to do with anything?

[dragonfett]

Sorry about the confusion concerning Wolfen taking the Dog Boy OCC. They only get the skills, but none of the psychic detection abilities. Hope this clears up any confusion.

And Emporer Ryu, you keep stating that a Coalition Military Specialist can't become a LLW because they weren't born with the proper abilities, YOU ARE WRONG!!! He was born with the proper abilities to become a LLW, he just may not have been born with attribute scores that are not high enough, or he may not become a LLW because of the society he was born into rejects all things magical and non-human, or he even may not become a LLW because he just wants to be a CS Military Specialist more, however he was NEVER BORN WITHOUT THE PROPER ABILITIES! I apologize for being this rude because I normally am not, how ever you saying that not all humans can become LLW's just because of that reason is just, well I won't say what's on my mind because I am trying to be civil, however suffice it to say that is wrong. Any human, by the rules, can become a LLW.

[Shark_Force]

yes. that's very nice. and in the most recent, updated set of rules we have available, it tells us "oh by the way, there's some stuff that we once called RCCs, but which aren't actually RCCs". it then goes on to specifically mention that dog boys are one of those things, and a few pages later, the psi-stalker has also been made into an RCC.

If you are referring to the Canines in the Rifts Conversion Book. That is a huge mistake. If you haven't noticed already, the Canines and Dog Boys are particular the same category of species. Meaning these two "R.C.C.s" are compatible with each other. This doesn't make the Dog Boys an O.C.C. It just means the Dog Boy available skills sets can be learned for these other "similar" R.C.C.s

Again, . . . R.C.C.s are not O.C.C.s The R.C.C.s will not become human, . . . like ever.

or, you could open up the actual current rules, where the dog boy is an OCC, and it explicitly tells you what an RCC is and why dog boy is explicitly supposed to be an OCC and not an RCC.

[Shark_Force]

no, it goes against the definition of RCC that you have made up with absolutely zero corroborating evidence behind it, based on old rules which have been explicitly noted as being improperly applied. not liking the rule is a good enough reason to change it for your home game, but it's absurd to try to claim that the official rules are forced into conformity with your home rules just because you happen to have made up your own interpretation of the rules based on nothing.

[Zer0 Kay]

No, he was referring to the Rifts Ultimate Edition, the updated main book for Rifts. Sorry man, but Shark Force is right, the RUE does indeed tell us that Dog Boys are no longer an R.C.C. and that they, along with lots of other races, should never have been classified as an R.C.C. in the first place (Unfortunately they did not include a simple LIST of all races that were previously stated as RCCs but are no longer considered such, it just mentions a few examples and leaves it up to each GM to determine the rest of them). Perhaps you should read the RUE before continuing this line of argument with him.

As far as the 'Wolfen' who has the Dog Boy OCC that he mentioned previously, I remember reading about him too, but don't remember which book he appears in. Probably an NPC in one of the Tolkeen books or Coalition War Campaign or Lonestar. He's like a sergeant or important NCO in charge of a dog pack, iirc.
It's definitely NOT from the Rifts Conversion Book.

So the definition of the human species has become lost in translation in the Ultimate Edition? The purpose for the R.C.C.s was to classified other species not 100% human. It was so simple to understand. I don't have the Ultimate Edition Book. My arguments come from the original book, where I don't have much trouble understanding it, especially when it comes to the differences between O.C.C.s (humans) and R.C.C.s (not 100% humans).

No, no it wasn't all the psychics psi-stalkers and mind melters, etc... were classified as RCCs... They are 100% Human more so than a cyborg. Their level of psychic ability is a natural ability they were born with so they are "different" than a mundane human. So a Wolfen Palladin or Wolfen Wilderness Scout is a human? Wildernes s Scout is an OCC. The RUE RCC is simply classes where inate abilities must be present at birth if it is superior psychic ability in a human or the fact that you are a Wolfen and want to be Quatoria is meaningless (the Quatoria by the way is listed as an OCC even though only wolfen may be Quatoria AND the Space Wolfen are an RCC even though they have no skill set and must take an OCC from a list. That must be where the problem started... with Phase World.

I mean, what part of O.C.C. crossing do you not understand? A Coalition Military Specialists, who wasn't born with the proper abilities, simply cannot become a "Ley Line Walker" (Which by the way, Step 4 "only" deals in "psionics" and not "magic" in general.).

Uh... yes they can neither a Ley Line Walker or a CS MilSpec are RCCs so though a diehard CS MilSpec still in the CS military would never choose to become a LLW it is not because they can't. An Ex-CS MilSpec that becomes enamored with the abilities of a LLW could change his class. Now a CS MilSpec Ex or otherwise could not later become a Burster because he wasn't born with the tallent nor could he become a DogBoy because well... he isn't a Dog. As far as I'm concerned a Wolfen also can not become a Dog Boy as they aren't born with the same psychic powers that the Dog Boys are bred for. Now a Dog Boy RCC from RMB could learn magic as could a burster but as with all multi-class their skills freeze only duplicates rising once the new OCC's identical skill percentage surpasses the other class'.

[Zer0 Kay]

Uh... yes they can neither a Ley Line Walker or a CS MilSpec are RCCs so though a diehard CS MilSpec still in the CS military would never choose to become a LLW it is not because they can't. An Ex-CS MilSpec that becomes enamored with the abilities of a LLW could change his class. Now a CS MilSpec Ex or otherwise could not later become a Burster because he wasn't born with the tallent nor could he become a DogBoy because well... he isn't a Dog. As far as I'm concerned a Wolfen also can not become a Dog Boy as they aren't born with the same psychic powers that the Dog Boys are bred for. Now a Dog Boy RCC from RMB could learn magic as could a burster but as with all multi-class their skills freeze only duplicates rising once the new OCC's identical skill percentage surpasses the other class'.

Is there a specific process that enables the Coalition Military Specialist to become enamored with the Ley Line Walker abilities? And won't it be possible for a Canine to become a Dog Boy, since that means joining the Coalition States, by ways of stimulation and genetic manipulation, simply because they are quite familiar with the very biology of a canine, that is the Dog Boys? And how can a Dog Boy become a R.C.C. Burster and learn magic spells, when it states that Ley Lines and Nexus Points impair and even obliterates the psychic sensing and tracking abilities? If magical creatures can regain their spent P.P.E. without any complications, how is this possible for Dog Boys?

How do you keep taking my posts out of context? I never said a Dog boy could become a burster, I said AS COULD A BURSTER as in a Dog Boy and a Burster (two different characters) walk into a bar they both fall to the ground and get up with the idea that they should learn how to cast magic. An RCC can become an OCC an OCC can become another OCC but and OCC can never become an RCC just as one RCC can't become another RCC.

The CS capability of Genetic manipulation is from embryo not gene therapy to grant powers otherwise all of their troops would have sixth sense. So no a Canine RCC ??? Where is that from again? Or a Mutant dog from TMNT/AtB could not become a Dog Boy EXCEPT if they already have the powers stated for Dog Boys. Really? Really? There has to be a process for a person to become interested in mystic powers? How does a normal human become enamored with the LLW's abilities? Is there a process for a real life person that makes them enamored with the military or in game a normal person to become enamored with the CS military? It is a set of skills and if you as a player want to pick a new OCC you can figure out reasons that they would be attracted to changing their OCC. The Dog Boys if they chose to become magic users... heck even without becoming a magic user ALL living beings have PPE and if they are drained by a PPE vampire it replenishes naturally. A mage LEARNS how to channel PPE to do this faster. What does "when it states that Ley Lines and Nexus Points impair and even obliterates the psychic sensing and tracking abilities" have to do with anything? Ley lines and Nexi impair the sensing and tracking abilities the same way that clouds and rain impair radar. Ley Lines and Nexi do nothing to other psychic powers nor do they impare psychic characters from drawing PPE off of it if they know how to channel it.

[drewkitty ~..~]

*yawns*
(being very non-specific here) Some people here only have the Rifts books so have not had their horizons broadened. Thus their minds are fixated on the Rifts' ways of things. (Even if the rifts ways of things is so broken that there is no way anymore.)

Canine Races are not the genetically manipulated Dogboys.
(The Dogboys being a mix of dog and human genes if I am remembering correctly.)

While in general most races has the same potential for magic and Psi as humans, DogBoys' Psi potential has been basically frozen into the powers listed in the DogBoys. The only time that Dogboys have the same Psi potential as humans is when there is a abnormality in the individual, as per the chart.
If you follow the presidents found in R South America 2 then Dogboys is a PCC.
According to the definitions of OCC, PCC, and RCC (not the rifts variants), dogboys fall into the RCC category, because they are a race with a static racial powers and with class limited skill selection. If anyone is arguing that they are not a RCC, then they are a PCC because they are a class with a selection of class Psi powers.

As for Psi-Stalkers, they a mutant humans with their own class. This is a classic. The books do not say if they are their own new species of humanoid or they are just (superhero style) mutants. If they are their own species then they are an RCC, if they can still in-breed with other humans then they are a PCC.


What are in the CC's
RCC [Racial Char. Class]: The Whole race having the same class of a static powers selection, with the same CC skill. The RCC is presented with the powers and skills, equipment, money, and all the things other classes have in them.
(The 'mutant animals' found in RSA2 would fall under this heading, along with the Machine People and Silhouette from RDB2 PW)

PCC [Psychic Char Class]: Classes that their main focus is on the char's Psi powers. Such as Mind Melters, Mind Mages, and Mind Masters, Natural Psi's, Natural Geniuses, Mystics, the Psi Gizmoteires from SA2

OCC {occupational Char Class]: This type of class is based around skills learned to do a type of job. Such as Imperial Janissaries, the N&S Gizmoteier classes, Dedicated MA, Pandora Agent, wilderness scout, Wizard, LLW

Power Categories:(in HU) these are defined by what powers you have and how you got them. All skills are based on the level of education the char has. Bionics, Aliens, Mystic study, Physical Training, Special Training, mutants, Hardware, ancient weapons master to list a few.


For a CS soldier to develop magic abilities, they have to 1) go AWOL,and 2) avoid capture, and 3) find a mage that will teach them magic and overcome the brainwashing the CS does on it's people to actually believe they can make magic work. Even then, according to the newest book on magic they would be limited to the 'Forsaken Mage" class. Even if you follow the posted class changing rules, it takes Years to be able to become proficient at magic.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. *Rubs temples.* I'll try one more time, even though I'm pretty sure it's pointless.

This definition is the R.C.C. is not 100% human. So easy to understand.

That's a simple definition, agreed. It's just not the Palladium definition. This has been stated several times, various pages and paragraphs in R:UE state otherwise. But, I'm fairly sure that's going to be ignored, so I'll try to address the rest of the points instead of wasting time repeating myself (and many others).

There are examples of this throughout the books. Show me where there is an R.C.C. that is 100% human.

1) Well, the Mind Melter (which by the original Rifts main book is a R.C.C.) can be human (a human with psychic powers, but still human). R:UE actually goes so far to state that 84% of Mind Melters are human.

2) R.C.C. (as stated) refers to skills and abilities part of someone's genetics. Humans, in general (and definitely not after R:UE) don't have a R.C.C. because we actually need to learn to do things. If we have to learn it, then it's not hard-coded into our genes (like the case with dragons). Simplest way I can descibe it after RUE: If you have to learn it, then it's an O.C.C. If you are born knowing it (every member of your race will know this regardless), then it's a R.C.C.

Humans are a race. Elves, Dwarves, and many, many other races are just that, a race. Elves do NOT have a R.C.C. They're a race that select an O.C.C., like many other races. An R.C.C. cannot (typically) take an O.C.C. Most races (humans as well as many others) can take O.C.C.

And another thing, there has not been a single evidence that clearly shows an O.C.C. crossing over into an other O.C.C. after character generation. None. Where does it state this so-called official rule? So I can make a note of it on my very old character sheets, if I ever play again.

In book, the rules can be found in Palladium Fantasy Book 3: Adventures on the High Seas. Though they can also be found on the Cutting Room Floor on the Palladium main site (the rules do vary slightly). In case anyone is still incapable of finding it on their own here is the link.

http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/cutt ... alocc.html

Also, I'm fairly sure there are several examples of NPC having more than one O.C.C. within the books, but I'm not a big Rifts player so I couldn't give any specific references (other than I've heard them talked about before).

An R.C.C. similar to another R.C.C. can share the O.C.C. skill sets, based on their born abilities. Like the Canines and the Dog Boys. How can you claim your interpretation as the just result, where it states otherwise in the rest of the books? Seriously, who is really trying to change the game, simply because they hate it, and then hate the other players and GMs that got it the first time? Look, . . . you want to play your way. That's fine. But as far as I am concern, that is not what it "officially" states in the books. And I'll say it again, . . . when I get the Ultimate Edition Book, and see that a Dog Boy is an O.C.C., and not an R.C.C., I'm just going to interpret that as a typo.

You're going to ignore multiple references on several pages as typos because they don't fit your vision, and that is fine. I think most people here don't have a problem with that. However you want to run/play your games is fine. If you're having fun, then more power to you. I don't think anyone here is actually going to disagree with what I just said (in this paragraph).

Now, the conflict is coming in because it's discussing the rules. Rifts: Ultimate Edition are the new, updated rules. When the old, outdated original Rifts main book and R:UE conflict, R:UE cancels out the old book (especially when R:UE says the old book was inaccurate). Why? Because it's the new, updated rules. And while we don't have an issue with someone preferring the old Rifts main book, it's no longer accurate when referring to many of the rules and inappropriate for a discussion on canon (the current rules as written).

Anyways, I think that's all for now. I doubt I'll be responding to this thread again. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Zer0 Kay]

no, it goes against the definition of RCC that you have made up with absolutely zero corroborating evidence behind it, based on old rules which have been explicitly noted as being improperly applied. not liking the rule is a good enough reason to change it for your home game, but it's absurd to try to claim that the official rules are forced into conformity with your home rules just because you happen to have made up your own interpretation of the rules based on nothing.

This definition is the R.C.C. is not 100% human. So easy to understand. There are examples of this throughout the books. Show me where there is an R.C.C. that is 100% human. And another thing, there has not been a single evidence that clearly shows an O.C.C. crossing over into an other O.C.C. after character generation. None. Where does it state this so-called official rule? So I can make a note of it on my very old character sheets, if I ever play again. An R.C.C. similar to another R.C.C. can share the O.C.C. skill sets, based on their born abilities. Like the Canines and the Dog Boys. How can you claim your interpretation as the just result, where it states otherwise in the rest of the books? Seriously, who is really trying to change the game, simply because they hate it, and then hate the other players and GMs that got it the first time? Look, . . . you want to play your way. That's fine. But as far as I am concern, that is not what it "officially" states in the books. And I'll say it again, . . . when I get the Ultimate Edition Book, and see that a Dog Boy is an O.C.C., and not an R.C.C., I'm just going to interpret that as a typo.

So where does it say similar RCCs can share OCC skill sets? Canines are not born with the same abilities as Dog Boys. Evidence of multiple OCCs? Many NPCs have multiple OCCs. An example of forced multi classing is available on page 62 of the bionic sourcebook. The previous version of the same multi-classing is less severe and is found in sourcebook 1 sixth printing FAQ section on pages 8,9 and 10. If it is this way for going from say Rogue Scientist to Cyborg why is it not the same for going from Rogue Scientist to Ley Line Walker (as mystic knowledge is learned and not innate like psychic powers are) or the other way around without the loss of mystic/psychic powers as going to Rogue Scientist does not require implants which are the cause of the loss of Mystic/Psychic powers?

I think the Dog Boy as an OCC is a mistake as well. I also think the Wolfen Quatoria being an OCC is wrong. However! They also changed the psychic classes from RCC to OCC only the Dragons are RCC in the RUE now. I'm not sure but I think they've changed their stance on psychic powers being able to be learned and therefore a DogBoy is not restricted to the mutant dog created by the CS but to all cananids and is now an OCC as it is not restricted to just a single race, while only a dragon can be a dragon. Psi-Stalker 100% Human. Superhero from HU 100% Human and it would be classified as an RCC. The Psi-Sensitive from BtS would be classified as an RCC by RMB accounts but is 100% human. 100% Human + amazing abilities does equal < 100% Human otherwise all mystic classes, the crazy, juicer, and bionic characters need to be RCCs... but they are not because any race that is allowed to select the classes can become one and don't have to be born with inate abilities (in some cases stats yes, but not abilities) so they are OCCs.

[Zer0 Kay]

Greetings and Salutations. *Rubs temples.* I'll try one more time, even though I'm pretty sure it's pointless.

This definition is the R.C.C. is not 100% human. So easy to understand.

That's a simple definition, agreed. It's just not the Palladium definition. This has been stated several times, various pages and paragraphs in R:UE state otherwise. But, I'm fairly sure that's going to be ignored, so I'll try to address the rest of the points instead of wasting time repeating myself (and many others).

There are examples of this throughout the books. Show me where there is an R.C.C. that is 100% human.

1) Well, the Mind Melter (which by the original Rifts main book is a R.C.C.) can be human (a human with psychic powers, but still human). R:UE actually goes so far to state that 84% of Mind Melters are human.

2) R.C.C. (as stated) refers to skills and abilities part of someone's genetics. Humans, in general (and definitely not after R:UE) don't have a R.C.C. because we actually need to learn to do things. If we have to learn it, then it's not hard-coded into our genes (like the case with dragons). Simplest way I can descibe it after RUE: If you have to learn it, then it's an O.C.C. If you are born knowing it (every member of your race will know this regardless), then it's a R.C.C.

Humans are a race. Elves, Dwarves, and many, many other races are just that, a race. Elves do NOT have a R.C.C. They're a race that select an O.C.C., like many other races. An R.C.C. cannot (typically) take an O.C.C. Most races (humans as well as many others) can take O.C.C.

And another thing, there has not been a single evidence that clearly shows an O.C.C. crossing over into an other O.C.C. after character generation. None. Where does it state this so-called official rule? So I can make a note of it on my very old character sheets, if I ever play again.

In book, the rules can be found in Palladium Fantasy Book 3: Adventures on the High Seas. Though they can also be found on the Cutting Room Floor on the Palladium main site (the rules do vary slightly). In case anyone is still incapable of finding it on their own here is the link.

http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/cutt ... alocc.html

Also, I'm fairly sure there are several examples of NPC having more than one O.C.C. within the books, but I'm not a big Rifts player so I couldn't give any specific references (other than I've heard them talked about before).

An R.C.C. similar to another R.C.C. can share the O.C.C. skill sets, based on their born abilities. Like the Canines and the Dog Boys. How can you claim your interpretation as the just result, where it states otherwise in the rest of the books? Seriously, who is really trying to change the game, simply because they hate it, and then hate the other players and GMs that got it the first time? Look, . . . you want to play your way. That's fine. But as far as I am concern, that is not what it "officially" states in the books. And I'll say it again, . . . when I get the Ultimate Edition Book, and see that a Dog Boy is an O.C.C., and not an R.C.C., I'm just going to interpret that as a typo.

You're going to ignore multiple references on several pages as typos because they don't fit your vision, and that is fine. I think most people here don't have a problem with that. However you want to run/play your games is fine. If you're having fun, then more power to you. I don't think anyone here is actually going to disagree with what I just said (in this paragraph).

Now, the conflict is coming in because it's discussing the rules. Rifts: Ultimate Edition are the new, updated rules. When the old, outdated original Rifts main book and R:UE conflict, R:UE cancels out the old book (especially when R:UE says the old book was inaccurate). Why? Because it's the new, updated rules. And while we don't have an issue with someone preferring the old Rifts main book, it's no longer accurate when referring to many of the rules and inappropriate for a discussion on canon (the current rules as written).

Anyways, I think that's all for now. I doubt I'll be responding to this thread again. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Carefull about bringing in PFRPG or any other PB book for rules he will bring in cross classing with a Star Trek Science Officer. (Just teasing you EK)

[Damian Magecraft]

Uh... yes they can neither a Ley Line Walker or a CS MilSpec are RCCs so though a diehard CS MilSpec still in the CS military would never choose to become a LLW it is not because they can't. An Ex-CS MilSpec that becomes enamored with the abilities of a LLW could change his class. Now a CS MilSpec Ex or otherwise could not later become a Burster because he wasn't born with the tallent nor could he become a DogBoy because well... he isn't a Dog. As far as I'm concerned a Wolfen also can not become a Dog Boy as they aren't born with the same psychic powers that the Dog Boys are bred for. Now a Dog Boy RCC from RMB could learn magic as could a burster but as with all multi-class their skills freeze only duplicates rising once the new OCC's identical skill percentage surpasses the other class'.

Is there a specific process that enables the Coalition Military Specialist to become enamored with the Ley Line Walker abilities? And won't it be possible for a Canine to become a Dog Boy, since that means joining the Coalition States, by ways of stimulation and genetic manipulation, simply because they are quite familiar with the very biology of a canine, that is the Dog Boys? And how can a Dog Boy become a R.C.C. Burster and learn magic spells, when it states that Ley Lines and Nexus Points impair and even obliterates the psychic sensing and tracking abilities? If magical creatures can regain their spent P.P.E. without any complications, how is this possible for Dog Boys?

How do you keep taking my posts out of context? I never said a Dog boy could become a burster, I said AS COULD A BURSTER as in a Dog Boy and a Burster (two different characters) walk into a bar they both fall to the ground and get up with the idea that they should learn how to cast magic. An RCC can become an OCC an OCC can become another OCC but and OCC can never become an RCC just as one RCC can't become another RCC.

The CS capability of Genetic manipulation is from embryo not gene therapy to grant powers otherwise all of their troops would have sixth sense. So no a Canine RCC ??? Where is that from again? Or a Mutant dog from TMNT/AtB could not become a Dog Boy EXCEPT if they already have the powers stated for Dog Boys. Really? Really? There has to be a process for a person to become interested in mystic powers? How does a normal human become enamored with the LLW's abilities? Is there a process for a real life person that makes them enamored with the military or in game a normal person to become enamored with the CS military? It is a set of skills and if you as a player want to pick a new OCC you can figure out reasons that they would be attracted to changing their OCC. The Dog Boys if they chose to become magic users... heck even without becoming a magic user ALL living beings have PPE and if they are drained by a PPE vampire it replenishes naturally. A mage LEARNS how to channel PPE to do this faster. What does "when it states that Ley Lines and Nexus Points impair and even obliterates the psychic sensing and tracking abilities" have to do with anything? Ley lines and Nexi impair the sensing and tracking abilities the same way that clouds and rain impair radar. Ley Lines and Nexi do nothing to other psychic powers nor do they impare psychic characters from drawing PPE off of it if they know how to channel it.

There is no canine RCC! wolfen are a race! not an RCC!

[Prysus]

I think the Dog Boy as an OCC is a mistake as well. I also think the Wolfen Quatoria being an OCC is wrong. However! They also changed the psychic classes from RCC to OCC only the Dragons are RCC in the RUE now. I'm not sure but I think they've changed their stance on psychic powers being able to be learned and therefore a DogBoy is not restricted to the mutant dog created by the CS but to all cananids and is now an OCC as it is not restricted to just a single race, while only a dragon can be a dragon.

Greetings and Salutations. I quoted just the part I wanted to respond to. For quite a while, I actually had the same view. If only race X can be a class then it's a R.C.C. However, with this discussion, and reading parts of R:UE, I can see how they're trying to take the R.C.C. term.

As I said in a different post: If you're born into it and every member (yes, every member needs to have these skills/abilities) then it's a R.C.C. If you have to learn them, then it's a O.C.C. So with your examples ...

1) Dog Boy: Yes, more or less only a Dog Boy can be a Dog Boy O.C.C. However, a Dog Boy (race) does not necessarily have to be a Dog Boy O.C.C. This involves training and for them to learn the skills (and perhaps enhance their talents). Dog Boys can also be feral and a few other different classes (hence O.C.C.).

2) Wolfen Quatoria: Yes, only a Wolfen can be a Wolfen Quatoria, but not all Wolfen are the Wolfen Quatoria. This is a life path they chose, learn, and become. This is why it's an O.C.C.

3) Mind Melter: You still need to be born with psychic abilities, but since not every human (not even every human with psychic powers) will be a Mind Melter, it's an O.C.C. I do believe psionics still require training to master (which is why a Major Psychic had O.C.C. penalties before). Someone could, in theory, have the potential to be a Mind Mage but waste away that potential, or channel that psychic potential into a different psychic class. That's at least always been my take on it.

Note: Rifts Ultimate Edition specifically mentions that they left P.C.C. out of the book because they felt that it would be too many different types of character classes and didn't want to confuse new players (this is found on page 278).

4) Dragons: Dragons are a R.C.C. because every single dragon starts off as a Dragon Hatchling R.C.C. Every dragon will start off the same. There is no training, no choice, this is simply who they are. Note: With this restriction, this is probably mostly a category for Supernatural Beings and/or Creatures of Magic at this point.

Anyways, just wanted to get a bit more into the whole run down of the differences (as per R:UE). While that's not how I used the term previously, I have no problem with this usage. It's fairly clean cut, in my opinion. With that said, some O.C.C. (such as the Psi-Stalker O.C.C.) do have "Racial Requirements" listed within R:UE. While the Psi-Stalker may be a O.C.C., it's also limited only to Psi-Stalkers. The Dog Boy O.C.C. has a racial restriction to genetically cloned canines. So this still helps limit an O.C.C. to certain races. All right, that's all for now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Zer0 Kay]

Uh... yes they can neither a Ley Line Walker or a CS MilSpec are RCCs so though a diehard CS MilSpec still in the CS military would never choose to become a LLW it is not because they can't. An Ex-CS MilSpec that becomes enamored with the abilities of a LLW could change his class. Now a CS MilSpec Ex or otherwise could not later become a Burster because he wasn't born with the tallent nor could he become a DogBoy because well... he isn't a Dog. As far as I'm concerned a Wolfen also can not become a Dog Boy as they aren't born with the same psychic powers that the Dog Boys are bred for. Now a Dog Boy RCC from RMB could learn magic as could a burster but as with all multi-class their skills freeze only duplicates rising once the new OCC's identical skill percentage surpasses the other class'.

Is there a specific process that enables the Coalition Military Specialist to become enamored with the Ley Line Walker abilities? And won't it be possible for a Canine to become a Dog Boy, since that means joining the Coalition States, by ways of stimulation and genetic manipulation, simply because they are quite familiar with the very biology of a canine, that is the Dog Boys? And how can a Dog Boy become a R.C.C. Burster and learn magic spells, when it states that Ley Lines and Nexus Points impair and even obliterates the psychic sensing and tracking abilities? If magical creatures can regain their spent P.P.E. without any complications, how is this possible for Dog Boys?

How do you keep taking my posts out of context? I never said a Dog boy could become a burster, I said AS COULD A BURSTER as in a Dog Boy and a Burster (two different characters) walk into a bar they both fall to the ground and get up with the idea that they should learn how to cast magic. An RCC can become an OCC an OCC can become another OCC but and OCC can never become an RCC just as one RCC can't become another RCC.

The CS capability of Genetic manipulation is from embryo not gene therapy to grant powers otherwise all of their troops would have sixth sense. So no a Canine RCC ??? Where is that from again? Or a Mutant dog from TMNT/AtB could not become a Dog Boy EXCEPT if they already have the powers stated for Dog Boys. Really? Really? There has to be a process for a person to become interested in mystic powers? How does a normal human become enamored with the LLW's abilities? Is there a process for a real life person that makes them enamored with the military or in game a normal person to become enamored with the CS military? It is a set of skills and if you as a player want to pick a new OCC you can figure out reasons that they would be attracted to changing their OCC. The Dog Boys if they chose to become magic users... heck even without becoming a magic user ALL living beings have PPE and if they are drained by a PPE vampire it replenishes naturally. A mage LEARNS how to channel PPE to do this faster. What does "when it states that Ley Lines and Nexus Points impair and even obliterates the psychic sensing and tracking abilities" have to do with anything? Ley lines and Nexi impair the sensing and tracking abilities the same way that clouds and rain impair radar. Ley Lines and Nexi do nothing to other psychic powers nor do they impare psychic characters from drawing PPE off of it if they know how to channel it.

There is no canine RCC! wolfen are a race! not an RCC!

I had never heard of one thanks. Figured it was from a Rifter I didn't own. Space Wolfen are listed as an RCC while the Quatoria a class only available to the Wolfen are listed as an OCC, which I swore was supposed to be RCCs. See told ya Phase World screwed it up.

[Zer0 Kay]

I think the Dog Boy as an OCC is a mistake as well. I also think the Wolfen Quatoria being an OCC is wrong. However! They also changed the psychic classes from RCC to OCC only the Dragons are RCC in the RUE now. I'm not sure but I think they've changed their stance on psychic powers being able to be learned and therefore a DogBoy is not restricted to the mutant dog created by the CS but to all cananids and is now an OCC as it is not restricted to just a single race, while only a dragon can be a dragon.

Greetings and Salutations. I quoted just the part I wanted to respond to. For quite a while, I actually had the same view. If only race X can be a class then it's a R.C.C. However, with this discussion, and reading parts of R:UE, I can see how they're trying to take the R.C.C. term.

As I said in a different post: If you're born into it and every member (yes, every member needs to have these skills/abilities) then it's a R.C.C. If you have to learn them, then it's a O.C.C. So with your examples ...

1) Dog Boy: Yes, more or less only a Dog Boy can be a Dog Boy O.C.C. However, a Dog Boy (race) does not necessarily have to be a Dog Boy O.C.C. This involves training and for them to learn the skills (and perhaps enhance their talents). Dog Boys can also be feral and a few other different classes (hence O.C.C.).

2) Wolfen Quatoria: Yes, only a Wolfen can be a Wolfen Quatoria, but not all Wolfen are the Wolfen Quatoria. This is a life path they chose, learn, and become. This is why it's an O.C.C.

3) Mind Melter: You still need to be born with psychic abilities, but since not every human (not even every human with psychic powers) will be a Mind Melter, it's an O.C.C. I do believe psionics still require training to master (which is why a Major Psychic had O.C.C. penalties before). Someone could, in theory, have the potential to be a Mind Mage but waste away that potential, or channel that psychic potential into a different psychic class. That's at least always been my take on it.

Note: Rifts Ultimate Edition specifically mentions that they left P.C.C. out of the book because they felt that it would be too many different types of character classes and didn't want to confuse new players (this is found on page 278).

4) Dragons: Dragons are a R.C.C. because every single dragon starts off as a Dragon Hatchling R.C.C. Every dragon will start off the same. There is no training, no choice, this is simply who they are. Note: With this restriction, this is probably mostly a category for Supernatural Beings and/or Creatures of Magic at this point.

Anyways, just wanted to get a bit more into the whole run down of the differences (as per R:UE). While that's not how I used the term previously, I have no problem with this usage. It's fairly clean cut, in my opinion. With that said, some O.C.C. (such as the Psi-Stalker O.C.C.) do have "Racial Requirements" listed within R:UE. While the Psi-Stalker may be a O.C.C., it's also limited only to Psi-Stalkers. The Dog Boy O.C.C. has a racial restriction to genetically cloned canines. So this still helps limit an O.C.C. to certain races. All right, that's all for now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Thanks for the note. Granted it is canon and of course with every thing else that is PB we have written authority by the grand puhbah himself to ignore it if we don't like it... which is technically also cannon... so does that thereby make house rules canon? So yeah for me master psychics are PCCs as are the Dog Boys and classes that require a single specific race is an RCC. But for canonical arguement I will differ to your definition which needs to be altered in so many of the non updated books like oh Phase World.

[Zer0 Kay]

How do you keep taking my posts out of context? I never said a Dog boy could become a burster, I said AS COULD A BURSTER as in a Dog Boy and a Burster (two different characters) walk into a bar they both fall to the ground and get up with the idea that they should learn how to cast magic. An RCC can become an OCC an OCC can become another OCC but and OCC can never become an RCC just as one RCC can't become another RCC.

What I meant was the abilities the two R.C.C.s have, where the Burster can replenish and double the effectiveness of his abilities, whereas the Dog Boy, cannot.

The CS capability of Genetic manipulation is from embryo not gene therapy to grant powers otherwise all of their troops would have sixth sense. So no a Canine RCC ??? Where is that from again? Or a Mutant dog from TMNT/AtB could not become a Dog Boy EXCEPT if they already have the powers stated for Dog Boys. Really? Really? There has to be a process for a person to become interested in mystic powers? How does a normal human become enamored with the LLW's abilities? Is there a process for a real life person that makes them enamored with the military or in game a normal person to become enamored with the CS military? It is a set of skills and if you as a player want to pick a new OCC you can figure out reasons that they would be attracted to changing their OCC. The Dog Boys if they chose to become magic users... heck even without becoming a magic user ALL living beings have PPE and if they are drained by a PPE vampire it replenishes naturally. A mage LEARNS how to channel PPE to do this faster. What does "when it states that Ley Lines and Nexus Points impair and even obliterates the psychic sensing and tracking abilities" have to do with anything? Ley lines and Nexi impair the sensing and tracking abilities the same way that clouds and rain impair radar. Ley Lines and Nexi do nothing to other psychic powers nor do they impare psychic characters from drawing PPE off of it if they know how to channel it.

Humans are not canines. Canines are R.C.C.s, because they are not human. Canines can have the same psionic abilities as the Dog Boy.

Carefull about bringing in PFRPG or any other PB book for rules he will bring in cross classing with a Star Trek Science Officer. (Just teasing you EK)

Whose EK? If you mean ER, me, then, . . . it's all good.

First... I do mean ER... I was thinking Kai instead of Ryu... COMPLETELY different

My point is they have the data to manipulate the human genome as much if not more so than the Dog Boy. So if they can do the above suggested they would have already given all of their soldiers sixth sense it is reguardless of humans being canine or not RCC or OCC.
Canines can not have the Dog Boy OCC as Dog Boys are not Canines they are Canine/Human hybrids not simply mutated canines with the canine genome tweeked to make them more intelligent and bipedal. Which somewhat explains the lack of digitigrade legs (walk on digits like dogs or wolfen instead of the "palm" like humans also what produces the distinct knee reverse knee look which is actually the ankle and what we perceive as the ankle is the first knuckle) and the presence of the more human ones we see.

[Damian Magecraft]

OK one last time...

RACE does not equal RCC!!!
Please stop referring to all non-human races as RCCs!
not only do you muddy the issue but you come off as talking out a body part not attached to your face.

WB30 clearly and definitely shows that non-human does not equal RCC!

[keir451]

Howdy All!!! I find that I agree w/Shark Force, many RCC's are ones that certain races (like the Dragon) *must* take because they're a dragon or a specific creature, the rest are "OCCs" that have a racial requirement (such as the Omaguan Oracle Cat).

I also agree that a character cannot gain the "special abilities" of an RCC if they (somehow) manage to take it.
For example; The Omaguan Oracle Cat RCC can only be taken by the Oracle Cat breed (or race if you prefer) and no one else because of their psionic abilities that are specific to that race/breed. Yet that selfsame 'Cat could take another OCC in place of or in addition to the Oracle Cat RCC/OCC yet still retain their psionic abilities.
On the same note a Wolfen that get's trained as a Dog Boy does not gain the Mutant Dog Boy psychic powers he/she only gets the skills.

That's Alll Folks

[Damian Magecraft]

My point is they have the data to manipulate the human genome as much if not more so than the Dog Boy. So if they can do the above suggested they would have already given all of their soldiers sixth sense it is reguardless of humans being canine or not RCC or OCC.
Canines can not have the Dog Boy OCC as Dog Boys are not Canines they are Canine/Human hybrids not simply mutated canines with the canine genome tweeked to make them more intelligent and bipedal. Which somewhat explains the lack of digitigrade legs (walk on digits like dogs or wolfen instead of the "palm" like humans also what produces the distinct knee reverse knee look which is actually the ankle and what we perceive as the ankle is the first knuckle) and the presence of the more human ones we see.

No, the complete human sequence is very, very different from a Dog Boys. Granted Dog Boys have "some" human genes in them, but that doesn't mean that if a dog can have these abilities, a human can too. Even the slightest difference in the sequence can have a very profound effect on the subject, hence the random tables for the Dog Boys. The Canine R.C.C. will go through this table too, that is, if they join the Coalition States and become a Dog Boy R.C.C. It states specifically that a Canine R.C.C. can choose the skill sets of the R.C.C. Dog Boy, and has the psionic potential to obtain the abilities of the R.C.C. Dog Boy as well, in the Rifts Conversion Book.

OK one last time...

RACE does not equal RCC!!!
Please stop referring to all non-human races as RCCs!
not only do you muddy the issue but you come off as talking out a body part not attached to your face.

WB30 clearly and definitely shows that non-human does not equal RCC!

Thanks for informing me that World Book 30 "might" have another typo in it, when I get it.

Allow me to ask, . . . what does the "R" stand for in R.C.C.?

And does it make it clear in the original book, at the very beginning, what an R.C.C. is defined as, in terms of species?

While an RCC is a race that does not mean and it has never meant that every non-human is an RCC.

Think of it like this.
A dolphin is a mammal.
but a mammal is not necessarily a Dolphin.

Same thing applies to races vs rcc .
A RCC is a Race.
But a Race is not necessarily a RCC.

[dragonfett]

Hey Emperor Ryu, you said you wanted canonical evidence from the original RMB that someone can change classes after character creation, well here it is. Page 69 of the RMB, where it describes Juicer Detox procedure. Step 2, which is on page 70, tells the player to choose a new OCC.

As for Wolfen and other Canine races having the same psychic abilities as a Dog Boy, you are still wrong, and here is why. They have the same 25% chance at having psychic abilities as a human, and a Dog Boy. A Dog Boy has a 100% chance to have psychic powers. In addition to all that, 96% also get Sense Psychic and Magic Energies, Recognize Psychic Scent, and Sense Supernatural Being. A Wolfen never will get these just by being born. They would have to take some OCC that had those abilities in order to get them. Even in the original Conversion Book 1, Wolfen could choose the Dog Boy OCC (which, btw, was still an RCC at the time).

I also noticed something just now as I was flipping through my RUE, both the Civilized and Wild Psi-Stalker are not just restricted to Psi-Stalkers anymore, but Mutant Humans (which I find interesting due to the fact that all a Psi-Stalker really is is a mutant human with a specific mutation that has bred true throughout generations).

I have question for you. Why are you insisting that the new rules that are written in the RUE are a typo? A typo is when a word is misspelled word or something along those lines that are later corrected in errata releases, not a an entire paragraph written by the game designer HIMSELF! Now I can understand that you might not be up to par on the most current rulings since you do not have the RUE, and I even understand and respect the fact that you are wanting to adhere to the original definition of an RCC (a rather extreme and strict one IMHO). But I do not respect the fact that you are trying to force feed it down our throats.

The definition for an RCC has been changed to, and I quote (RUE, page 278):

RCC: (Racial Character Class) is basically the same thing [as an OCC] but refers to inhuman monsters, demons and aliens with abilities and skill equivalents that come natural to all creatures of that specific race, such as Climbing, Swimming, Seduction, etc. This category is sometimes confusing when an alien being or monster has a range of instinctive skills and abilities, but is also intelligent and driven enough to learn additional skills, just like humans.

So you see, RCC does not mean 99.99999999% or < human anymore. So please stop posting your drivel to this thread as it is painfully obvious that you have nothing more to the thread to contribute.

[Crucible]

I always cut all of the RCC skills completely and let the guys get the special abilities. You chose an OCC, it means that you are specialized. No RCC skills. Flat out.

so in your game I can be a Dragon Glitterboy pilot? or a Dragon Mind Melter? Or how about a Dragon Rogue Scientist?

LOL!!! Its like a mission on this board to complicate things huh?

I am not the one complicating things...
The Highlighted statement (your statement I might point out) complicates things. I am merely pointing out the complication. By the wording I can have a Dragon with all the casting and Psi-ability and still be a skill monkey as well.

There are exceptions and my players know what they are. You can choose a Psi-Stalker if you want to, but in the end you have to choose either the RCC skills or the OCC skills. A Dragon? RCC only. This is why sitting with players during character creation is important. I have never seen where you can merge RCC with OCC skills. Show me where it is in the book please.

[Damian Magecraft]

I always cut all of the RCC skills completely and let the guys get the special abilities. You chose an OCC, it means that you are specialized. No RCC skills. Flat out.

so in your game I can be a Dragon Glitterboy pilot? or a Dragon Mind Melter? Or how about a Dragon Rogue Scientist?

LOL!!! Its like a mission on this board to complicate things huh?

I am not the one complicating things...
The Highlighted statement (your statement I might point out) complicates things. I am merely pointing out the complication. By the wording I can have a Dragon with all the casting and Psi-ability and still be a skill monkey as well.

There are exceptions and my players know what they are. You can choose a Psi-Stalker if you want to, but in the end you have to choose either the RCC skills or the OCC skills. A Dragon? RCC only. This is why sitting with players during character creation is important. I have never seen where you can merge RCC with OCC skills. Show me where it is in the book please.

You have me confused with some one else if you think I am arguing for combining RCC and OCC. I was pointing out where the flaw was in the original post. (by being facetious in my post.)

[Zer0 Kay]

My point is they have the data to manipulate the human genome as much if not more so than the Dog Boy. So if they can do the above suggested they would have already given all of their soldiers sixth sense it is reguardless of humans being canine or not RCC or OCC.
Canines can not have the Dog Boy OCC as Dog Boys are not Canines they are Canine/Human hybrids not simply mutated canines with the canine genome tweeked to make them more intelligent and bipedal. Which somewhat explains the lack of digitigrade legs (walk on digits like dogs or wolfen instead of the "palm" like humans also what produces the distinct knee reverse knee look which is actually the ankle and what we perceive as the ankle is the first knuckle) and the presence of the more human ones we see.

No, the complete human sequence is very, very different from a Dog Boys. Granted Dog Boys have "some" human genes in them, but that doesn't mean that if a dog can have these abilities, a human can too. Even the slightest difference in the sequence can have a very profound effect on the subject, hence the random tables for the Dog Boys. The Canine R.C.C. will go through this table too, that is, if they join the Coalition States and become a Dog Boy R.C.C. It states specifically that a Canine R.C.C. can choose the skill sets of the R.C.C. Dog Boy, and has the psionic potential to obtain the abilities of the R.C.C. Dog Boy as well, in the Rifts Conversion Book.

OK one last time...

RACE does not equal RCC!!!
Please stop referring to all non-human races as RCCs!
not only do you muddy the issue but you come off as talking out a body part not attached to your face.

WB30 clearly and definitely shows that non-human does not equal RCC!

Thanks for informing me that World Book 30 "might" have another typo in it, when I get it.

Allow me to ask, . . . what does the "R" stand for in R.C.C.?

And does it make it clear in the original book, at the very beginning, what an R.C.C. is defined as, in terms of species?

I realize a dog and human aren't genetically similar! I'm saying that if they can isolate the abilities in a dog boy they can do the same for their human soldiers by figuring out how it works with psychic humans. Um... it is proven that a human in game can have those abilities except being able to "smell" them. Psi-stalker, psychic sensitives etc. The Lone Star Complex has just as much mastery over the human genome as they do over dog boys. Can you give me a book and page number for this supposed Canine R.C.C.?

RCC does not equal race and Elf without an OCC is not an RCC a Wolfen without an OCC is not an RCC a Dwarf, Titan etc, etc...

[LostOne]

Simple way is however works for you and your group. I've had players combine RCC and OCC before just fine, given they aren't already super powerful CCs and there is a good/reasonable in game reason for how such an RCC would have picked up the OCC that doesn't violate some rule (like a regenerating RCC taking the cyber-knight class with the cybernetics).

In those cases, in our games, the character would only get the RCC specific skills not the RCC other or RCC secondary. If the RCC and OCC both have the same skill, we would apply the bonus the OCC gave to the skill the RCC had. So if a Kydian (Splugorth Overlord, Atlantis) took an OCC that gave Climbing +15 (Kydian already has Climbing +10), the Climbing skill would get the additional +15 as a one time bonus.

It has worked well in our games.

[Zer0 Kay]

Simple way is however works for you and your group. I've had players combine RCC and OCC before just fine, given they aren't already super powerful CCs and there is a good/reasonable in game reason for how such an RCC would have picked up the OCC that doesn't violate some rule (like a regenerating RCC taking the cyber-knight class with the cybernetics).

In those cases, in our games, the character would only get the RCC specific skills not the RCC other or RCC secondary. If the RCC and OCC both have the same skill, we would apply the bonus the OCC gave to the skill the RCC had. So if a Kydian (Splugorth Overlord, Atlantis) took an OCC that gave Climbing +15 (Kydian already has Climbing +10), the Climbing skill would get the additional +15 as a one time bonus.

It has worked well in our games.

Certainly the most simple... but we don't argue house rules, we argue canon rules. So what are the canon rules?

[Damian Magecraft]

Simple way is however works for you and your group. I've had players combine RCC and OCC before just fine, given they aren't already super powerful CCs and there is a good/reasonable in game reason for how such an RCC would have picked up the OCC that doesn't violate some rule (like a regenerating RCC taking the cyber-knight class with the cybernetics).

In those cases, in our games, the character would only get the RCC specific skills not the RCC other or RCC secondary. If the RCC and OCC both have the same skill, we would apply the bonus the OCC gave to the skill the RCC had. So if a Kydian (Splugorth Overlord, Atlantis) took an OCC that gave Climbing +15 (Kydian already has Climbing +10), the Climbing skill would get the additional +15 as a one time bonus.

It has worked well in our games.

Certainly the most simple... but we don't argue house rules, we argue canon rules. So what are the canon rules?

Canon? I believe Canon is a reduction in certain natural abilities and a loss of all skills related to the RCC in favor of the OCC. Although certain OCCs (IIRC) overide even RCC "natural-abilities." Although with the new RUE definition of RCC only encompassing; inhuman monsters, demons and aliens that may have been rendered moot.

[Damian Magecraft]

Simple way is however works for you and your group. I've had players combine RCC and OCC before just fine, given they aren't already super powerful CCs and there is a good/reasonable in game reason for how such an RCC would have picked up the OCC that doesn't violate some rule (like a regenerating RCC taking the cyber-knight class with the cybernetics).

In those cases, in our games, the character would only get the RCC specific skills not the RCC other or RCC secondary. If the RCC and OCC both have the same skill, we would apply the bonus the OCC gave to the skill the RCC had. So if a Kydian (Splugorth Overlord, Atlantis) took an OCC that gave Climbing +15 (Kydian already has Climbing +10), the Climbing skill would get the additional +15 as a one time bonus.

It has worked well in our games.

Certainly the most simple... but we don't argue house rules, we argue canon rules. So what are the canon rules?

Canon? I believe Canon is a reduction in certain natural abilities and a loss of all skills related to the RCC in favor of the OCC. Although certain OCCs (IIRC) overide even RCC "natural-abilities." Although with the new RUE definition of RCC only encompassing; inhuman monsters, demons and aliens that may have been rendered moot.

still don't understand why this rule got made this way? I mean I understand it, just don't see why?

which part? I mention 2 different rules in my post, I am unsure as which you speak.

[Damian Magecraft]

Although certain OCCs (IIRC) overide even RCC "natural-abilities." Although with the new RUE definition of RCC only encompassing; inhuman monsters, demons and aliens that may have been rendered moot.

which part? I mention 2 different rules in my post, I am unsure as which you speak.

Ah...
My assumption was so as to clear up the confusion as what qualifies as a rcae and what is an actual RCC. As to the first sentence of my post I assume that is because the OCC is so powerful that the adding on the RCC powers was both redundant and a tad munchie.

[drewkitty ~..~]

[
And does it make it clear in the original book, at the very beginning, what an R.C.C. is defined as, in terms of species?

Maybe ER is not understanding what is being said.

Race: is being a species of sentient beings. (Elf, Human, Dwarf, Gnome, Changeling,....) A race does not necessarily have a class attached to it.

snip....
What are in the CC's
RCC [Racial Char. Class]: The Whole race having the same class of a static powers selection, with the same CC skill. The RCC is presented with the powers and skills, equipment, money, and all the things other classes have in them.
(The 'mutant animals' found in RSA2 would fall under this heading, along with the Machine People and Silhouette from RDB2 PW)

PCC [Psychic Char Class]: Classes that their main focus is on the char's Psi powers. Such as Mind Melters, Mind Mages, and Mind Masters, Natural Psi's, Natural Geniuses, Mystics, the Psi Gizmoteires from SA2

OCC {occupational Char Class]: This type of class is based around skills learned to do a type of job. Such as Imperial Janissaries, the N&S Gizmoteier classes, Dedicated MA, Pandora Agent, wilderness scout, Wizard, LLW

Power Categories:(in HU) these are defined by what powers you have and how you got them. All skills are based on the level of education the char has. Bionics, Aliens, Mystic study, Physical Training, Special Training, mutants, Hardware, ancient weapons master to list a few.
....snip

In the Rifts books the terms RCC and PCC are more often then not, used Wrongly.
An Example of the term RCC used wrongly would be the "Space Wolfen RCC" page 65 RDB2 PW, and a few pages before that the "Noro RCC" Page 61, then on page 73 the "Kreeghor RCC" on page 73.

I could go on, and on, and on.

[Damian Magecraft]

Although certain OCCs (IIRC) overide even RCC "natural-abilities." Although with the new RUE definition of RCC only encompassing; inhuman monsters, demons and aliens that may have been rendered moot.

which part? I mention 2 different rules in my post, I am unsure as which you speak.

Ah...
My assumption was so as to clear up the confusion as what qualifies as a rcae and what is an actual RCC. As to the first sentence of my post I assume that is because the OCC is so powerful that the adding on the RCC powers was both redundant and a tad munchie.

Thank you

NP

[drewkitty ~..~]

Maybe ER is not understanding what is being said. Race: is being a species of sentient beings. (Elf, Human, Dwarf, Gnome, Changeling,....) A race does not necessarily have a class attached to it. In the Rifts books the terms RCC and PCC are more often then not, used Wrongly. An Example of the term RCC used wrongly would be the "Space Wolfen RCC" page 65 RDB2 PW, and a few pages before that the "Noro RCC" Page 61, then on page 73 the "Kreeghor RCC" on page 73.

Again, if you want to adopt the Fantasy character generation for the Rifts settings, that's fine. However, this is not what is interpreted and done in the Rifts Books.

Even in RIFTS Elves are not an RCC, Dwarves are not an RCC.

It is starting to feel like you are ignoring the way the system works, in favor of broken rifts. It is people that have Rifts as the 'Is All, and End All" that drove me from liking rifts.

By the way, nice of you to edit the quote from me w/o showing you edited it.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Not discussing Fantasy character generation over the Rifts character generation.

You are ignoring people who have been playing the PB system for 15 or more years, you are trying to correct your misinterpretations of the PB system is, because you only look at what the rifts books say.

You have made my ignore list.

[dragonfett]

Look at it from my perspective. I've been playing this game since the first year it showed up in our local RPG stores, back in 1990. Since then, I've read where other RPGs had to change there systems over and over again. I am loyal to Rifts because it didn't go through any changes. All it ever did was add more and more awesome material that keeps the game both interesting and fun. The only reason we stopped, was a huge change in lifestyle from school, namely work. Now, after conversing with Kevin back then, he assured us that it's mainly up to the GMs and players to decide how they want to play the game. Now ask yourself, is it wrong to stick with the original rules? Is it wrong correct typos in the book? If you or anybody else want to follow the new rules. That is fine. For me, and definitely I know the rest of my group, would probably fine ways to adjust to the new rules and combine the old and the new together in some format, in order to make the transition, that is, if we ever manage to get together and actually make the playable amount of time to game. It feels more like it's the other way around, where new rules are being forced onto me, while everybody else still understands the original. So far, I have not heard once a compromising adjustment to bridge the old and new, without ever having to mention, "because he said so". I can easily come back and use the same line.

Actually, I have been trying to take that into account, but it honestly felt like to me that is what you were doing. As far as I can tell, the OP was wanting canonical rules on how to go about this, which no one has answered because you're not supposed to let an RCC take any OCC's. However, because of the way different authors took certain liberties with the term RCC, that is the most likely reason Kevin had to make that clarification in the RUE (the first logical opportunity to do so, really). But I do have to agree with you somewhat with how the rules have changed. The only rule that I can really think of of the top of my head that I do like that was introduced in the RUE was the fact that all spells of level 5 and lower only take one action to cast, so a LLW can't get interrupted while casting a simple Armor of Ithan or even a Globe of Daylight, but that is off topic.

The only thing that I can see as far as the op is concerned is that Conversion Book 1 (unrevised) implies that the only OCC's (note that it says OCC's and not OCC skills, meaning that the RCC get's all of their special abilities and the special abilities of the OCC, except where it is specifically noted in the OCC description, like the Psycho Stalker) that an RCC can take are noted in their description. I would have to dig out and take a look at how the Revised version states it before I call it definitive. I personally don't like how that's worded, but as far as anything canon goes, that is the best that I have found so far.