Strength of the Dead

[grimmhold]

Hey all, I was going over some of my necromancer spell list, and I was wondering how much of the person/body is needed to cast strength of the dead. It doesn't really clarify exactly how much is needed, a toe, a chunk of flesh, a limb, or the whole body. If there is already a thread on this please link. Thanks in advance.

[Nekira Sudacne]

any amount will do.

[Mallak's Place]

The Range indicates that the Caster must touch the Dead Creature. We have always assumed this to mean that the caster must touch a mostly intact corpse. Since the spell gives 50% of the creatures S.D.C./H.P. (or M.D.C.) we figure you need at least 50% of the total corpse to cast the spell. This is the way we play it at our table, but this only our way of looking at the spell.

[cornholioprime]

any amount will do.

What she said.

Not because of the wording of that particular Spell, but because Necromancer Powers in general typically require only a small portion of the dead creature's body to achieve the requisite effects (e.g., you as a Necomancer only need to eat only a tongue or brain to get the creature's speech or memories, or hold onto or wear only a couple of the creature's bones in order to gain flight or attacks, et al.)

[Mallak's Place]

any amount will do.

What she said.

Not because of the wording of that particular Spell, but because Necromancer Powers in general typically require only a small portion of the dead creature's body to achieve the requisite effects (e.g., you as a Necomancer only need to eat only a tongue or brain to get the creature's speech or memories, or hold onto or wear only a couple of the creature's bones in order to gain flight or attacks, et al.)

Sorry but I have to disagree that statement.

Yes the necromancer needs only the brain to gain the memories of the dead and it's tongue to speak languages, but the brain is were we hold our knowledge and the tongue is seen as the source of speech (never heard some one say they want to tear out a liars vocal cords)
when a necromancer uses their Union With The Dead ability they need the creatures Hand/Talon/claw or Feet/Hooves(please not this is plural.. you need at least 2 to have the effect when changing the feet)
when using the Augmentation With Additional Appendages ability the necromancer must have the "Limb" Not just a small piece of one, plus if your going to add wings you need to have a matching set. Yes they retain the dead appearance and can even be skeletal and maybe missing a piece or two but the basic structure must be there to be effective.

[cornholioprime]

any amount will do.

What she said.

Not because of the wording of that particular Spell, but because Necromancer Powers in general typically require only a small portion of the dead creature's body to achieve the requisite effects (e.g., you as a Necomancer only need to eat only a tongue or brain to get the creature's speech or memories, or hold onto or wear only a couple of the creature's bones in order to gain flight or attacks, et al.)

Sorry but I have to disagree that statement.

Yes the necromancer needs only the brain to gain the memories of the dead and it's tongue to speak languages, but the brain is were we hold our knowledge and the tongue is seen as the source of speech (never heard some one say they want to tear out a liars vocal cords).

You prove my point.

If the Necromancer needed the ACTUAL, TOTAL set of parts to get a given ability:

In the one instance, to gain the Speech of the creature, he would have to eat not only the Tongue but the vocal cords, the speech centers of the brain, the spinal cord which allows the speech to be physically vocalized by the vocal cords, and the frontal lobes of the brain where the creature has its knowledge of the vocabulary of that language.

In the other instance, speaking of the Memory powers, the brain would be useless, anyway, since the neurons and axons and chemical storage centers in the brain all rapidly decompose (some of it by a chemical process that naturally releases destructive compounds into the body when dying) and become useless after death. In effect, a brain isn't really a brain anymore not long after the physical death of the creature in question.

We can therefore conclude that the transfer of powers and skills and memories is magical, not physical in nature, and as such it doesn't really need the character to eat or touch or otherwise interact with "X" percentage of the target's body unless stated otherwise; it only requires that the Necromancer complete the spell by eating or joining with the requisite amount of whatever body part is needed for whatever task.

Going from there, we can also conclude that if the Spell doesn't specifically ask for bonding to or eating "the whole thing" (whatever that "thing" is, from a body part to an organ to the entire corpse), then the Necromancer could potentially come upon a single chunk of, say, Dragon and get his Strength of The Dead as easily as if he had come upon the entire carcass.

when a necromancer uses their Union With The Dead ability they need the creatures Hand/Talon/claw or Feet/Hooves(please not this is plural.. you need at least 2 to have the effect when changing the feet)
when using the Augmentation With Additional Appendages ability the necromancer must have the "Limb" Not just a small piece of one, plus if your going to add wings you need to have a matching set. Yes they retain the dead appearance and can even be skeletal and maybe missing a piece or two but the basic structure must be there to be effective.

Still proves my point.

The wording of those particular Necromancer Powers specifically tell you how much of the body you need to obtain a particular power; the necro-magic spell "Strength of The Dead," however, does not (see Rifts: Africa).

[Mallak's Place]

The wording of those particular Necromancer Powers specifically tell you how much of the body you need to obtain a particular power; the necro-magic spell "Strength of The Dead," however, does not (see Rifts: Africa).

That is the problem with the spell it doesn't tell exactly how much of the creature needs to be touched to have the effect. The spell description is literally one sentence.

Without limitations this become the greatest defensive spell in existence. For 60 P.P.E. and having as little as a single scale from a Adult Horned Dragon the caster will gain 1d4x1000+250 M.D.C. for 2 minutes (8 melee rounds) per level of the spell caster.

Put this spell into a Talisman or at the center of a TW device and you can imagine the problems it is going to cause.

[Johnathan]

Now here comes the real problem. Arguing the point of a Dragon's Scale and whether it is alive or not...

Naaaaah. I'm just kidding!

Moving on though. Seriously. This statement can be argued both ways. On the one hand, Mallak's Place has a very valid point. On the other hand, CHPrime also has a very valid point. Shall we see howso? I say let's and you all can be the judge.

MP argues that one would need a substantial portion of a dead "thing" in order to utilize Strength of the Dead. I would concur based upon the example, albeit and extreme one, that he has given involving the Great Horned Dragon. I will state, however, that if your Necromancer is A - Lucky enough to know an Adult Great Horned Dragon who is willing to part with a piece of themselves for the sole purpose of this spell (Most won't. Most Dragons are very particular about their bodies and who has access to them...) or B - Powerful enough to run a gauntlet AGAINST an Adult Great Horned Dragon in the attempt to acquire a piece of them. Then I say, good luck. It could work. However, in 95% of the cases, given what we have to work with... I would see the Necromancer dying a fiery and quick. But, if your necromancer IS powerful enough to take on an Adult Dragon of any kind, the world is his oyster anyway. It's all a matter of perspective... In Mallak's Place's argument, I would say that the Dragon in question will most likely be dead already and the Necromancer is one well off Death Mage (Oh the thing's a Necromancer can do with a Dragon Corpse...)

Now, CHPrime argues that one would ONLY need a small piece (or as Neky put it, Any amount will do), in order to achieve the desired results. This can be argued as well based upon one sole, solitary factor: It's Magic. 99% of the time, it doesn't make sense. It's not supposed to. Magic is meant to bend reality and achieve results that would otherwise be deemed Impossible to achieve through ordinary means. That's what makes magic what it is. Focus, chant and boom... something happens. In that regards, CHPrime's necromancer could very well achieve the results he desires. Magic doesn't make sense. Necromancy only makes sense in regards to the Dead. Strength of the Dead gives bonuses that most would argue as being outrageously high, depending upon what one has available to them. Using the example of the Dragon again. Your necromancy would be unbelievably lucky, and pretty much set for life, with that one scale and only 60 P.P.E. But bare in mind, the Necromancer is also likely to have a highly irrate dragon looking for him to get his scale BACK.

In a nutshell, it could go both ways. One would have to sit down and discuss this with their respective GM's and/or players on how it would most likely work for YOU. Perhaps one scale IS all they need, but in exchange for those 2 minutes per level of experience of ULTRA-AWESOME, the scale burns out after that one use and disintegrates into nothingness. Now you need another scale, hope you didn't use it frivolously (Hope that 4,000+ M.D.C. was worth the fight against those no-name NPC's that your GM threw your way as fodder...). See what I'm saying? If you have a majority of the dead thing to work with, it isn't burned out in the one use. If you have a minority or small fraction (Like a scale from an adult dragon) of this "thing" then the use is a one-time deal and it's useless at that point.

Of course, as I have stated earlier in this post, if your Necromancer has an Adult Dragon corpse just lying around waiting to be used by him, he's already fairly set merely by bonding with it's respective pieces. Who cares about using Strength of the Dead, when you have wings, a skull, claws (feet and hands) and a rib cage of Dragon?

[cornholioprime]

Now here comes the real problem. Arguing the point of a Dragon's Scale and whether it is alive or not...

Naaaaah. I'm just kidding!

Moving on though. Seriously. This statement can be argued both ways. On the one hand, Mallak's Place has a very valid point. On the other hand, CHPrime also has a very valid point. Shall we see howso? I say let's and you all can be the judge.

MP argues that one would need a substantial portion of a dead "thing" in order to utilize Strength of the Dead. I would concur based upon the example, albeit and extreme one, that he has given involving the Great Horned Dragon. I will state, however, that if your Necromancer is A - Lucky enough to know an Adult Great Horned Dragon who is willing to part with a piece of themselves for the sole purpose of this spell (Most won't. Most Dragons are very particular about their bodies and who has access to them...) or B - Powerful enough to run a gauntlet AGAINST an Adult Great Horned Dragon in the attempt to acquire a piece of them. Then I say, good luck. It could work. However, in 95% of the cases, given what we have to work with... I would see the Necromancer dying a fiery and quick. But, if your necromancer IS powerful enough to take on an Adult Dragon of any kind, the world is his oyster anyway. It's all a matter of perspective... In Mallak's Place's argument, I would say that the Dragon in question will most likely be dead already and the Necromancer is one well off Death Mage (Oh the thing's a Necromancer can do with a Dragon Corpse...)

Now, CHPrime argues that one would ONLY need a small piece (or as Neky put it, Any amount will do), in order to achieve the desired results. This can be argued as well based upon one sole, solitary factor: It's Magic. 99% of the time, it doesn't make sense. It's not supposed to. Magic is meant to bend reality and achieve results that would otherwise be deemed Impossible to achieve through ordinary means. That's what makes magic what it is. Focus, chant and boom... something happens. In that regards, CHPrime's necromancer could very well achieve the results he desires. Magic doesn't make sense. Necromancy only makes sense in regards to the Dead. Strength of the Dead gives bonuses that most would argue as being outrageously high, depending upon what one has available to them. Using the example of the Dragon again. Your necromancy would be unbelievably lucky, and pretty much set for life, with that one scale and only 60 P.P.E. But bare in mind, the Necromancer is also likely to have a highly irrate dragon looking for him to get his scale BACK.

In a nutshell, it could go both ways. One would have to sit down and discuss this with their respective GM's and/or players on how it would most likely work for YOU. Perhaps one scale IS all they need, but in exchange for those 2 minutes per level of experience of ULTRA-AWESOME, the scale burns out after that one use and disintegrates into nothingness. Now you need another scale, hope you didn't use it frivolously (Hope that 4,000+ M.D.C. was worth the fight against those no-name NPC's that your GM threw your way as fodder...). See what I'm saying? If you have a majority of the dead thing to work with, it isn't burned out in the one use. If you have a minority or small fraction (Like a scale from an adult dragon) of this "thing" then the use is a one-time deal and it's useless at that point.

Of course, as I have stated earlier in this post, if your Necromancer has an Adult Dragon corpse just lying around waiting to be used by him, he's already fairly set merely by bonding with it's respective pieces. Who cares about using Strength of the Dead, when you have wings, a skull, claws (feet and hands) and a rib cage of Dragon?

I like what you've put forth in this Post, I really do, BUT.....I have to point out a couple of things:

1. The general tone of the Necromancer Section seems to strongly imply that the parts in question have to come from a creature that is itself dead, not just a dead piece of a still-living creature. (No, seriously; I re-read the Necromancy section from Rifts: Africa before making this post.)

2. If attaching a relatively tiny Dragon's Claw gives the Necromancer certain effects, then what is so "bad" or "overpowering" about the Strength of the Dead power being able to be used with similarly small or even smaller pieces of the same dead Dragon?

So what if a Necromancer can temporarily hold his own against a Squadron of Coalition Troops -in the high-powered world of Rifts, who cares?

[Prysus]

The wording of those particular Necromancer Powers specifically tell you how much of the body you need to obtain a particular power; the necro-magic spell "Strength of The Dead," however, does not (see Rifts: Africa).

Greetings and Salutations. In Rifts Africa it only says "Touch" without additional clarification. In Rifts Book of Magic (a newer book) on page 195, it states the range as: "Self, must touch the dead creature."

Now what constitutes a "dead creature"? Personally, I'd say you have to have a fair bit of a body. While The Thing from Adam's Family may be an exception, in general I wouldn't consider a hand, a scale, or a lock of hair (Cousin It is another exception!) as a creature. In my opinion, I'd say if you sewed it all up and cast Resurrection on it ... would it come back to life (giving that you cast it in the appropriate time frame)? If not (because it wasn't enough to live), then I'd say it isn't a creature. Something that can't ever be considered a living creature can't be considered a dead creature. Anyways, just a random thought. Though I wanted to note the Rifts Book of Magic wording, because I do think that's important (in my opinion).

I've never had a player want to play a Necromancer before, so this is really a non-issue for me and I have no personal stake in this. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[cornholioprime]

The wording of those particular Necromancer Powers specifically tell you how much of the body you need to obtain a particular power; the necro-magic spell "Strength of The Dead," however, does not (see Rifts: Africa).

Greetings and Salutations. In Rifts Africa it only says "Touch" without additional clarification. In Rifts Book of Magic (a newer book) on page 195, it states the range as: "Self, must touch the dead creature."

Now what constitutes a "dead creature"? Personally, I'd say you have to have a fair bit of a body. While The Thing from Adam's Family may be an exception, in general I wouldn't consider a hand, a scale, or a lock of hair (Cousin It is another exception!) as a creature. In my opinion, I'd say if you sewed it all up and cast Resurrection on it ... would it come back to life (giving that you cast it in the appropriate time frame)? If not (because it wasn't enough to live), then I'd say it isn't a creature. Something that can't ever be considered a living creature can't be considered a dead creature. Anyways, just a random thought. Though I wanted to note the Rifts Book of Magic wording, because I do think that's important (in my opinion).

I've never had a player want to play a Necromancer before, so this is really a non-issue for me and I have no personal stake in this. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

I'll look into the wording in the Rifts: Book of Magic when I get the chance (i.e., when I feel motivated enough to get off my arse to do so).


Good to know, thanks.

[Mercdog]

Necromancy is heavily based on symbols. Brain for memories, tongue for speaking, and not just any piece of the body. And strength of the dead gives hit points. What symbolizes hit points, i.e. overall health and endurance, best? I would say a whole body.

I'd say the heart, which is much easier to carry.

[Pike]

Everyone has very good points on this topic. The way I've always played it (as a GM as well as a necromancer PC) is that is has to be a fresh kill with the body still intact. Similar to the rules of draining PPE from a sacrifice or resurrecting a deceased character. Just my two cents.

[Lenwen]

If your running a game in where your attempting to gimp the spell "Strength of the Dead" then make the required body part be .. nearly a complete corpse.

But lets be honest here a "corpse" does not signify hp's .. if anything it signify's "Lack of Hp's" .. least that is how I would see it..

I would say any peice does the trick as it is not explained in depth and as was pointed out already Necromancy is a symbolic magic .. meaning only a small portion be needed to cast wanted spells ..

[SpiritInterface]

what is Thing form the adam's family?

Thing is a Helping Hand familiar from Rifter 21 page 33.