MDC: do you use it as written?

[SkyeFyre]

I use MDC as written. In my game MDC is as rare as it's supposed to be though. So a lot of the time my players are facing off against SDC foes with SDC gear. If they use their MDC weapons against them and use up their very expensive ammo when that MDC threat comes along they're in trouble. Not to mention that even with SDC weapons if someone is wearing partial MDC armor it's still possible to hit them by rolling over the AR. My players have gotten jumped by a bunch of SDC baddies who held them down, pulled them out of their armor and beat em up. It works perfectly as a 1:100 ratio, people have just got to be more careful when facing it.

What I find works nicely is having large numbers of SDC opponents with one or two MDC foes. You've still got to worry about the SDC guys, but they can be dealt with relatively quickly. Give them a few SDC rocket launchers and such and it'll slowly wear the players down without them having the ability to salvage MDC gear to get the funds to repair.

[Elthbert]

I use MDC as written. In my game MDC is as rare as it's supposed to be though. So a lot of the time my players are facing off against SDC foes with SDC gear. If they use their MDC weapons against them and use up their very expensive ammo when that MDC threat comes along they're in trouble. Not to mention that even with SDC weapons if someone is wearing partial MDC armor it's still possible to hit them by rolling over the AR. My players have gotten jumped by a bunch of SDC baddies who held them down, pulled them out of their armor and beat em up. It works perfectly as a 1:100 ratio, people have just got to be more careful when facing it.

What I find works nicely is having large numbers of SDC opponents with one or two MDC foes. You've still got to worry about the SDC guys, but they can be dealt with relatively quickly. Give them a few SDC rocket launchers and such and it'll slowly wear the players down without them having the ability to salvage MDC gear to get the funds to repair.

MDC is also more unusual in my campaign. SDC weapons are important, and ammo is expensive.
I also use SDC opponants. Often only 1 or 2 bandits with be fully armed and armoured in MDC equioment.

[Ale Golem]

...if you're a regular guy you're useless.

100% false

I guess my players see themselves as brawlers so when they get into a fight, they like to punch and kick, but it sucks for them because if they are fighting dinosaurs or Dead Boys they can't do anything.

"What the hell? Why doesn't this triceratops fall over dead when I punch him in the face?" or alternatively "Dude, these soldiers are wearing cups, that's gotta be cheating or something!" Are you players seriously upset that they can't rip tanks and buildings apart with their bare hands when they're not playing D-Bees or augmented creatures? Tell them to get power armor, guns, magic, explosives and better tactics than bum rushing everything in their line of sight with pipes and bats.

MDC as written is completely usable, if your players refuse to use MD tactics then don't pit them against MDC creatures/structures. Rifts paints MD weapons and armor/fortifications as fairly rare so it's not a stretch for groups of people to go their whole lives without encountering it.

I use x10 instead of x100. There are some fundamental problems with energy expulsion and basic encounters that occur with x100. I swiftly figured this out by looking at the SDC of ordinary objects, and realized that if everything was obeyed to the letter, the entire planet would be a colossal desert.

The same rules apply no matter how much damage MD does. An MD shot/explosion stops at the second SDC barrier it encounters regardless of it's initial velocity or damage. So most likely the earth would not be a smoldering pile.

[Khanibal]

Wow, flashback to that poor guy beating on the tank with a baseball bat again.

5 pcs armed with chains, pipes and knives go dancing down the alley.
"When you're a Jet, you're..."
1 npc "shark" with an energy submachinegun
"zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz"
players
"Dang killer GM!"

[Noon]

People seem to be ignoring the details of the OP.

The group gets some kicks (scuse the pun) out of punching and kicking stuff. It sounds like they'd like to do just a handfull of points doing it. They find it...fun. You know, that thing you used to do before ya'll got fixated on realism (though I've noticed reality isn't really all that fun and it's got alot of realism).

[TechnoGothic]

People seem to be ignoring the details of the OP.

The group gets some kicks (scuse the pun) out of punching and kicking stuff. It sounds like they'd like to do just a handfull of points doing it. They find it...fun. You know, that thing you used to do before ya'll got fixated on realism (though I've noticed reality isn't really all that fun and it's got alot of realism).

Which is why they should be wearing Vibro-Spike Armor. the Knuckle Spikes on them can damage MD things. They would be punching and Kicking still.
I've run into player like these. I just give them Vibro-Spike Armor and they are happy.

[mobuttu]

How do you guys feel about MDC? How do you use it?

I'm going to use an SDC conversion in my next Rifts game.

[Noon]

People seem to be ignoring the details of the OP.

The group gets some kicks (scuse the pun) out of punching and kicking stuff. It sounds like they'd like to do just a handfull of points doing it. They find it...fun. You know, that thing you used to do before ya'll got fixated on realism (though I've noticed reality isn't really all that fun and it's got alot of realism).

Which is why they should be wearing Vibro-Spike Armor. the Knuckle Spikes on them can damage MD things. They would be punching and Kicking still.
I've run into player like these. I just give them Vibro-Spike Armor and they are happy.

Well, it sounded like they wanted their mortal strength to have some effect too.

But compromising on that, indeed yes, the vibro spike armour.

[SkyeFyre]

Judging by the OP's post they were asking about house rules and others rule and deal with MDC. Also, the topic is called "MDC: do you use it as written?". Sounds like house rule inquiring to me.

[Noon]

When I say indeed yes, I clearly mean it as being the only option that can be taken and not any softy 'yeah, that'd be one way of doing it that seems good'. I has zpoken the tru way and so shall ye follow it!

Now, do I note I'm using gentle sarcasm, or not in case I get a lol or two... >:)

[TechnoGothic]

People seem to be ignoring the details of the OP.

The group gets some kicks (scuse the pun) out of punching and kicking stuff. It sounds like they'd like to do just a handfull of points doing it. They find it...fun. You know, that thing you used to do before ya'll got fixated on realism (though I've noticed reality isn't really all that fun and it's got alot of realism).

Which is why they should be wearing Vibro-Spike Armor. the Knuckle Spikes on them can damage MD things. They would be punching and Kicking still.
I've run into player like these. I just give them Vibro-Spike Armor and they are happy.

Well, it sounded like they wanted their mortal strength to have some effect too.

But compromising on that, indeed yes, the vibro spike armour.

Not sure. Those players in question always played brawler types in other games.
After a run-in with a Crakletooth (who enjoyed the belly rub as he called it) just laughed them off. Another player PC saw this and took them to the Weapon Shop of the merc group. He then presented them with Vibro-Armor. Took then to the weapon testing areas and showed them what these guys can do HtH with these things. They loved it. Because to them they were not really using a weapon weapon. Later on the npc Leader of the mercs noticed his Vibro-armors were missing, was yelling and scream for them to be found and accounted for "those things cost money darn it". He saw the two brawlers fighting skeletal bot dumies, taking them apart. "OK, never mind I found them. Kids look good in them, fights darn good too."

After the game I explained to those players MD's importance and how tough it really is.
I told them modern era tanks might be low mdc with modern materials. Could they punch a tank and hurt it. they liked how normal person could no ever do that even with natural 20s. Too bad those guys moved away. They saw the need for md weapons then. Learning curve. I thought they knew the system. Turned out the only tried Palladium Fantasy, and Beyond the Supernatural at that point...they knew the system, but never knew about mdc...

[Khanibal]

They moved away? Since last week?
Man, I had a GM do that once.
Game 1: "Oh, by the way, I'm moving to Washington D.C."
Frickin' game tease.

[TechnoGothic]

yeah. It they stuck around like 6 months. They moved because the Military moved them. To Iraq. When they came back to the States i heard one was in Montana the other in Texas. They are Airforce lifers...

Ohh I had a GM move on me too. He did not even tell anyone in the group he was moving. We found out after a Month or so when we ran into his brother in WalMart. Dude ran off with his brother's fiance'.

[Khanibal]

Ah, then I forgive them.

[cchopps]

I'm not sure what your saying here but from what I gather you think that people only want to be realistic on forums and not in game.

I am saying that I have never been in a grp that has ever wanted this specific of info.

In 25 years plus of RPG'ing I've personally never encountered a grp or setting that wanted to be this specific, on any level.

I know that they are out there, but I've never seen any ..

Yep they are, just try to check out Pheonix Command. 60+ hit locations on teh human body. Also Rolemaster/Spacemanster with a book for only rolling critical hits etc. Nasty stuff and I do NOT lay them for that reason.

Exactly, some people like games that a very realistic and have rules for everything and others like free flowing games that are rules light or games that are more comic book or fantastic etc.

It's not like one is better than another.

That reminds me of a Transhuman Space campaign I played in with 4 guys (including the ST) who worked for NASA. The game where the party finally got into space... I don't know how many hours I sat there when we got into a ship combat while the four of them debated ship speed and acceleration and I don't even know. They took it to a whole new level.

C. Chopps

[Colt47]

I've been pondering ways to scale or maybe replace the MDC system in Rifts all together. Beyond just the whole x100 bit, there's also the issue of MDC values of cyborgs, power armor, and vehicles. I've thought about making a weapon damage scaling system for different sized vehicles to reflect their better or worse armor and gratuitous or not so gratuitous weapons payloads. Also pondering making certain weapons an exception to the rule so as to make them more valuable... such as mini-missile launchers. The only possible issue I'm foreseeing with my current plan is that the tweak is based off of MDC values found in the RUE and not utilizing the other world books.

The current idea I've got is that vehicles, PA, and soldiers in MDC armor are at different damage scaling levels, which are referred to as classes in the scaling system. Weapons from one set up do x10 more damage to targets one step below, two steps up does x100, etc. If a weapon is too big for the intended target, however, such as being two classes up, it will have a hard time hitting the smaller target. Weapons that are one class below the target class level do 1/10 their damage, rounded up, and weapons that are two classes below the target level do no significant damage to the target. Weapons that are anti-vehicular can do their full damage to targets that are one class level up from the level of the weapon, so if a weapon is like a mini-missile, it will do full damage to the class 2 vehicle.

Current examples for what falls in each class:

Class 1: Cars, hover bikes, People in armor, human sized supernatural beings, some light aircraft, commercial ships.
Class 2: Most robot vehicles, tanks, APCs, space fighters, some naval gun boats, Shuttles, certain kinds of aircraft.
Class 3: CS Mobile Firestorm base, Large Naval ships, Destroyer / Frigate class starships.

[MaxxSterling]

I use it as written, no problem. I don't run SDC campaigns, to me it's stupid. If you want to be SDC, no problem, but you better get some mdc armor and cross your fingers, because if your armor fails in the middle of an MDC gunfight, you are in deep crap. Don't do house rules on anything and it plays out fine for us.

[Damian Magecraft]

I use it as written.

[Colt47]

If there is one thing that never seems to work out right in Rifts: it's SDC combat. The reason is pretty simple: one MD weapon or critter is all it takes to completely wipe out a group. KS states that a person would die when facing off against an attack chopper or tank, but there is a bit of a problem using realism to justify a pistol that can literally vaporize a person in a single shot 10 times over or how the equivalent of a supernatural chicken can mutilate a group of unarmored six foot tall humans.

If the player group primarily wants to deal with things in SDC while playing in the Rifts setting, keep MD and MDC away from the game and setting that the players are currently taking part in. If you have to use BTS statistics for monsters go ahead, but do not mix MDC with SDC when the players want to deal with SDC challenges.

[glitterboy2098]

two answers:

playing: MDC as written, more or less. my main change is to stick to the RUE policy of "any attack inflicting 100+ SDC can do MD", and allowing lots of high SDC armor and vehicles in the setting. not MDC per say, but with enough SDC to withstand low MD attacks. likewise i allow high SDC objects (cement walls, trees, etc) to function as cover, though sometimes it doesn't last long in a fight. i also have bad guys do target priority. usually an unarmored person is a fairly low threat, so going about unarmored usually means you draw less fire, unless your brandishing a really big gun or something. between these approaches, you get a setting where not having EBA isn't a death sentance, just less safe.

Writing (which i tend to do more): i try to include 'lower tech" MDC things where possible. such as cheap low MDC vehicles, or conventional weapons able to do some MD. this gives GM's an option of "less lethal" encounters for the unarmored, and makes getting MDC protection easier, even if it is not the best options. (it also allows the "mad max" feel of bandits to return)

[Vrykolas2k]

I use it a written; MDC just isn't quite as ubiquitous as a lot of people perceive in my games.
I understand where the confusion comes in, but seriously, just because there are a lot of MDC creatures and so on described, doesn't mean you encounter them on a daily basis.

[Colt47]

I use it a written; MDC just isn't quite as ubiquitous as a lot of people perceive in my games.
I understand where the confusion comes in, but seriously, just because there are a lot of MDC creatures and so on described, doesn't mean you encounter them on a daily basis.

See that is the issue: It doesn't matter if they are rare: if a group encounters one, they die unless they have MDC armor and weapons. If the players want to fight primarily using the SDC system, the GM should completely avoid the mega-damage level. It's a waste of time, it will only cause problems, and it's going to result in cheap deaths. That is what it pretty much comes down to.

[jaymz]

I use it a written; MDC just isn't quite as ubiquitous as a lot of people perceive in my games.
I understand where the confusion comes in, but seriously, just because there are a lot of MDC creatures and so on described, doesn't mean you encounter them on a daily basis.

See that is the issue: It doesn't matter if they are rare: if a group encounters one, they die unless they have MDC armor and weapons. If the players want to fight primarily using the SDC system, the GM should completely avoid the mega-damage level. It's a waste of time, it will only cause problems, and it's going to result in cheap deaths. That is what it pretty much comes down to.

I would think that should pretty obvious though shouldn't it? If players are wanting to do mostly SDC thigns then go out into teh wilds knowing there are monsters that can eat them easilyt out there and they don't take the proper precautions that is thier own fault. If its a matter of they don't like MDC and want SDC then play something else because unless you REALLY want to convert all the gear over (you could just use stuff from Aliens Unlimited and Galaxy guide instead though) Rifts ain't the game to play.

[Killer Cyborg]

Also, a question for the OP;
Why would your players think that punching and kicking people in metal armour should result in success? Maybe if you answer this question, you'll better come to your own conclusion.

Yup.
A person in MDC armor with a MD weapon is the equivalent of a 20th century tank.
If your players like to get into fist-fights with tanks, that's their issue.

[Riftdevil]

I actually don't consider it to be trivializing. It creates a MODICUM of greater survivability. Trust me on this. I kill a lot of people. The average adventure does not pass without a PC death of some sort. Every so often, there's one where everyone survives, but that's usually luck or skill. If villains in my game see an opening, they take it and shoot.

Good that will force your players to think before they act instead of just running in and blasting away!! Always good to have a plan!

[Steeler49er]

How do you guys feel about MDC? How do you use it? We started up a Rifts campaign again as sort of a test run and one of the.. I don't want to say complaints... but definitely an issue that my players had is MDC and how if you're a regular guy you're useless.

It's not so much getting vaped by a MDC blast as much as it is just not even being able to cause 1 point of damage to an MDC structure.

I guess my players see themselves as brawlers so when they get into a fight, they like to punch and kick, but it sucks for them because if they are fighting dinosaurs or Dead Boys they can't do anything.

Sure, the easy answer is "Be a Juicer" but that's not really fixing what they see as the problem. So I was wondering if anyone had alternatives.

Like maybe MDC has SDC equivalency but has a really high AR or something like Hardness from D20, or maybe instead of 100 points an MDC equals 10 points.. I dunno.

I don't want to break the system, but I wouldn't mind seeing what other people use as their gaming norm.

I Fixed it, now it works logically and the players like it cuz I had to alter almost nothing.
100sdc is Still considered 1MDC, but Now allow that number to dip below and spike above 100!
Sometimes you'll need to do only 50 sdc to do damage to an object, other imtes that object is Much harder and you'll need to do Twice as much (200sdc or 2MDC) to even scratch it.
Some materials are highly resistant to heat (IE: takes No damage from heat attacks doing less than 1000 sdc or 10 MDC, but is flimsy for armor and only needs you to do 20 sdc to penitrate it and strike the victim) and then we allow PV from PBs' Compendioum of modernweapons. We just remove the decimal point is all.
If you have a PV of 1.8 then that equals a -18 to the targets MDC... So a gun with an 18 (1. pen/PV vs MDC armor (Standard 100 Hardness) would leave the MDC rating/Hardness is now 82!
Meaning you Only need to do 82 points of sdc damage to break through!

We call this rule the
Universal Protection Score, or U.P. Score! 8 years of on of game play and it worked...
Now "sdc" is used ALLOT in the game because it really can offer some level of protection from low end MDC attacks, and yet you can have sdc tech that is stronger than Other sdc forms of tech. One guy with an UP of 25s gets shot at by a 357 Magnum will likely die from that attack, while a person with Advance sdc tech may have an UP of 40 and will likely Nort get hurt.

Works just fine. And it allows players to go into a shop and ask the guy behind the counter what the differances are between Armor A) which costs 100,000Credits and Armor B) which costs 180K, without the guy saying "Oh that's easy, armor A has 150 MDC and armor B has 151 MDC!!!
And then listen to the players call this system stupid.


I'm s;eepy gonna Sleep now
night

[Vrykolas2k]

I use it a written; MDC just isn't quite as ubiquitous as a lot of people perceive in my games.
I understand where the confusion comes in, but seriously, just because there are a lot of MDC creatures and so on described, doesn't mean you encounter them on a daily basis.

See that is the issue: It doesn't matter if they are rare: if a group encounters one, they die unless they have MDC armor and weapons. If the players want to fight primarily using the SDC system, the GM should completely avoid the mega-damage level. It's a waste of time, it will only cause problems, and it's going to result in cheap deaths. That is what it pretty much comes down to.

PCs are assumed to have such gear. It's part of the beginning gear for every OCC that I'm familiar with.
Most also have some sort of SDC gear as standard issue, as well.
I fail to see the problem.

[sasha]

Typically I don't use it because usually we do explorer type campaigns and getting repairs and replacements is kind of impossible for the long range, long duration campaigns. Scaling is already so out of whack that I somewhat arbitrarily use the 1 mega-damage is 10 S.D.C. for armour and vehicles. Weapons get a damage bonus (either flat or more dice).

When I do use it I try to make sure the PCs are rich enough to afford repairs and replacements and that it's available (somewhere), because if you're active you burn through mega-damage gear rapidly. Nothing like being a combat cyborg, broke, and down to a handful of M.D.C.... brains over brawn, sure, but it defeats the purpose of the O.C.C. and nothing says a combat cyborg doesn't already use brains over brawn during course of play.

I also don't do mega-damage by location; but instead add it all up together. Primarily because it makes taking a hit with blast radius less wonky in my opinion. If it's important to have it by location such as sensors and it's a called shot target it might get its own amount of M.D.C., however. Really it's a case-by-case basis.

[MaxxSterling]

We use it exactly as written. But generally speaking we always add additional damage from the strength attribute to all md hand weapons that are indestructible instead of what canon states.

[Killer Cyborg]

I use it a written; MDC just isn't quite as ubiquitous as a lot of people perceive in my games.
I understand where the confusion comes in, but seriously, just because there are a lot of MDC creatures and so on described, doesn't mean you encounter them on a daily basis.

See that is the issue: It doesn't matter if they are rare: if a group encounters one, they die unless they have MDC armor and weapons. If the players want to fight primarily using the SDC system, the GM should completely avoid the mega-damage level. It's a waste of time, it will only cause problems, and it's going to result in cheap deaths. That is what it pretty much comes down to.

That depends entirely on the GM and the players.
If they're hack-and-slashers who just charge into combat the moment they see something worth XP, then yeah, they're probably going to just get killed.
If the GM is the type to not consider the party's power level and ability, or the player's level of skill, then yeah, they're probably just going to get killed.

But if you have players who think before they act, and a GM who's not out to TPK, then there's a lot of stuff that can be done.
For one thing, you might need to reread the original Rifts book: specifically the random monster generation tables.
Notice that each and every creature you roll up has its own weakness, something where SDC damage can inflict MD to them. It might be fire, or silver, or water, or iron, or something else, but it's there.
As more and more books came out, the writers veered (foolishly) away from that kind of thing, but that doesn't mean that GMs should follow suit.

Of course, mega-damage creatures usually inflict mega-damage with their attacks (though the GM can make up whatever kind of creatures he wants, so that's not written in stone), which is why SDC characters shouldn't go toe-to-toe with them as a first choice.
But that doesn't mean that that there's no way for SDC characters to fight MDC creatures.
You can shoot them from a distance if you have better range, using hit-and-run tactics.
You can set an ambush where you get a surprise round of attacks, and kill it before it gets to attack.
The characters could have armor with a lot of SDC, enough to take low levels of mega-damage.
The characters could be Juicers or other classes/races that have enough SDC to absorb some damage.
The characters could talk down the MDC foe, coming to some kind of arrangement with it.
They could even surrender, if they need to.
They could use MDC or high SDC objects as cover, so MDC shots can't hit them as easily (requiring a Called Shot).
They could have a spell like Impervious to Fire (or Energy, or whatever) that doesn't make them MDC, but that stops certain kinds of MDC attacks, the kind that the MDC foe uses to attack. The spell doesn't even have to be known; it can be in the form of a talisman or other one-time use object. ("According to the prophesy, the beast can only be killed by this silver sword, and the only way to survive it's mighty energy claws is to use this magic talisman...")
They could use SDC weapons that can crank out more than 100 SDC damage in a single attack.
They could overpower the enemy and capture it without needing to harm it.
They could use deadly force other than straight damage: suffocation, radiation, drowning, etc.
And a heck of a lot of other stuff that any good GM should be able to come up with, and any good set of players should be able to find out.

Examples of adventure I've run where SDC PCs go against MDC enemies:
-There is a lone, wounded (no more wings) Xiticix warrior heading north, presumably trying to get back to his hive, but it looks like his path will take him right through the middle of town. In addition to the devastation that he could inflict by himself, if the bug makes it back to his hive they'll know about the town and may decide to attack.
The party's mission is to stop the bug from walking through town, or near enough to see the town. They can try to kill it or otherwise stop it entirely, or they could try to divert it from it's path somehow.
The PCs used some super-strong SDC fishing nets, ectoplasm, and some cleverness to divert the bug from it's course. Nobody in the party got killed.
-The party (a Scrap Miner and a Farmer) discovered an old, pre-rifts bunker that likely had treasures in it, but it had become the nest for a supernatural predator (Sluglike creatures with 1 MDC, bite attack for 1d4 MD, and a speed of 3. It also has an incredible ability to track by scent, and once it locks onto a trail it doesn't quit. Vulnerability: Energy. Also, dormant during the day). The PCs at first thought about running to town for help, but realized that the creatures would follow them there and endanger the town. Eventually, after a long bout of (incredibly slow) Cat and Mouse, they discovered the creatures' weakness, and were able to kill them using SDC energy items they had in their possession (a pump-action laser rifle D: 1 SDC, basically the laser equivalent of a pellet gun), and a SDC Plasma Torch (D: 1d10 SDC).
One of the characters got his hand bitten off, but they both survived and gained some treasure.

If you need more ideas, you could look in this thread

[Zer0 Kay]

I use it as it was written in RMB NOT RUE. A weapon that does SDC with a single round reguardless of how many rounds is sent down range and is on target will not damage an MDC structure... EVER.

[Killer Cyborg]

I use it as it was written in RMB NOT RUE. A weapon that does SDC with a single round reguardless of how many rounds is sent down range and is on target will not damage an MDC structure... EVER.

There were weapons in the original Rifts book that inflicted SDC with individual shots, and MD on bursts.

[SkyeFyre]

I use it as it was written in RMB NOT RUE. A weapon that does SDC with a single round reguardless of how many rounds is sent down range and is on target will not damage an MDC structure... EVER.

There were weapons in the original Rifts book that inflicted SDC with individual shots, and MD on bursts.

Page please because I've read that book cover to cover several times and I must have missed this. Was it changed in a later printing?

[Killer Cyborg]

I use it as it was written in RMB NOT RUE. A weapon that does SDC with a single round reguardless of how many rounds is sent down range and is on target will not damage an MDC structure... EVER.

There were weapons in the original Rifts book that inflicted SDC with individual shots, and MD on bursts.

Page please because I've read that book cover to cover several times and I must have missed this. Was it changed in a later printing?

Rifts 226-227
Speedster Hover Cycle and Highway-Man Motorcycle each have an option to come with a Machinegun that inflicts 1d4 MD on a burst of 50 rounds.
Even if the 50-round bursts for some reason only count as "short bursts," that 1d4 MD is equal to 1 round x2, meaning that each individual round would inflict .5-2 MD.
Much, much, much more likely is that it counts as at least a Long Burst for 1 round x5 damage, meaning that each individual round inflicts 2d4x10 SDC.

[Zer0 Kay]

I use it as it was written in RMB NOT RUE. A weapon that does SDC with a single round reguardless of how many rounds is sent down range and is on target will not damage an MDC structure... EVER.

There were weapons in the original Rifts book that inflicted SDC with individual shots, and MD on bursts.

Page please because I've read that book cover to cover several times and I must have missed this. Was it changed in a later printing?

Rifts 226-227
Speedster Hover Cycle and Highway-Man Motorcycle each have an option to come with a Machinegun that inflicts 1d4 MD on a burst of 50 rounds.
Even if the 50-round bursts for some reason only count as "short bursts," that 1d4 MD is equal to 1 round x2, meaning that each individual round would inflict .5-2 MD.
Much, much, much more likely is that it counts as at least a Long Burst for 1 round x5 damage, meaning that each individual round inflicts 2d4x10 SDC.

and as with all things if a weapon write up says it can then it can... possibly accounting for the weapon actually being able to put all rounds hole in hole which would be striking the exact same spot which is possible with stuff like the H&K G11 and the O'Dwier Electric gun. But now it doesn't matter, even if the write up doesn't say the weapon can if it is capable of doing 100SDC in a single attack it does MDC. Simply stating that a few write ups said that those weapons could didn't change the rule any as there were hundreds of weapons that could do more than 100SDC in a single attack but were not explosive so did not do any MDC. Those write ups don't really give much detail either the ammo could be incindiary or explosive which would support my argument as there are no real details... ALL is opinion.

[Killer Cyborg]

Simply stating that a few write ups said that those weapons could didn't change the rule any as there were hundreds of weapons that could do more than 100SDC in a single attack but were not explosive so did not do any MDC.

Okay. List the weapons that had write-ups saying that even if they inflicted more than 100 SDC in an attack, they couldn't damage MDC structures.

Those write ups don't really give much detail either the ammo could be incindiary or explosive which would support my argument as there are no real details... ALL is opinion.

Hm. The ammo could be explosive, but it's pretty unlikely as no blast radius is listed.
Interesting thought, though.

[SkyeFyre]

Ah, ya know... I've read it a dozen times and it never sunk in that it was a burst weapon. Duh. Thanks KC.

[Mercdog]

I use this formula.

Defensively, a full 100 S.D.C. will 'soak' 1 M.D. of damage before being destroyed.
Offensively, a full 100 S.D.C. will inflict 1 M.D.
Against living Hit Point/S.D.C. opponents, M.D. inflicts double its potential value direct to Hit Points, completely ignoring any S.D.C. under 100.

So, in practice, someone with 43 Personal S.D.C. and 270 S.D.C. of armor shot with a laser that infliced 7 M.D. would take 11 damage direct to Hit Points, plus his armor and personal S.D.C. are wiped out completely. (7x2=14, 14-3=11.)

[Zer0 Kay]

Simply stating that a few write ups said that those weapons could didn't change the rule any as there were hundreds of weapons that could do more than 100SDC in a single attack but were not explosive so did not do any MDC.

Okay. List the weapons that had write-ups saying that even if they inflicted more than 100 SDC in an attack, they couldn't damage MDC structures.

I don't have to list the weapons of the RMB generation you just need to follow the old rules which is what I said I did: M.D.C. versus S.D.C.

1. Generally, 100 S.D.C. (or hit point) damage equals about one
M.D.C. point.
2. This also means that one point of Mega-Damage does approximately
100 S.D.C. points of damage.
3. Most conventional weapons do absolutely no damage to a megadamage
structure, even when combined for a total of 100 or more (See
example).
4. Example: A Coalition SAMAS power armor unit and two foot
soldiers in standard "Dead Boy" body armor are on a routine patrol of
Old Chicago ruins. All are wearing M.D.C. armor. Suddenly, they are
attacked by thirty rebel bandits. The bandits are armed with old S.D.C.
weapons, mostly M-16 assault rifles and sub-machineguns.
The two soldiers in Dead Boy body armor are caught in a hail of
bullets. Perhaps as many as 50 rounds hit for a combined amount of
S.D.C. damage of about 300, but the soldiers just stand their ground.
All the bullets bounce off their mega-damage body armor. The worst
is a few scratches. They take no damage!

Skip a bunch...

Combat Note: Typically, only a mega-damage weapon can harm a
M.D.C. structure. S.D.C. missiles and explosives that can inflict over
100 S.D.C. points of damage do inflict the equivalent of mega-damage.
In these rare cases, approximately every 100 S.D.C. points of damage
equals one mega-damage point. Always round down S.D.C. damage.
For example: A missile that inflicts 450 S.D.C. equals 4 M.D.C.

Those write ups don't really give much detail either the ammo could be incindiary or explosive which would support my argument as there are no real details... ALL is opinion.

Hm. The ammo could be explosive, but it's pretty unlikely as no blast radius is listed.
Interesting thought, though.

Maybe they are very well shaped explosives doing SDC over a wide area but when focused by using an MDC casing creates an MDC plasma penitrator. Kinda like how the RPG creates a plasma lance on impact. Or they were Rifts Ramjet rounds before they released the Ramjet rounds

[Killer Cyborg]

Simply stating that a few write ups said that those weapons could didn't change the rule any as there were hundreds of weapons that could do more than 100SDC in a single attack but were not explosive so did not do any MDC.

Okay. List the weapons that had write-ups saying that even if they inflicted more than 100 SDC in an attack, they couldn't damage MDC structures.

I don't have to list the weapons of the RMB generation you just need to follow the old rules which is what I said I did: M.D.C. versus S.D.C.

You said that there were hundreds of weapons that could do more than 100 SDC in a single attack, but were not explosive so did not do any Mega-damage.
I was hoping you could list one or two of these hundreds.
I'm already familiar with the general rule outlined in the book, but the wording isn't exactly crystal clear.
"Even when combined for a total of 100 or more" seems to be referring more to different attacks from different weapons combining, or different attacks from the same weapon, than to be referring to multiple bullets/rounds within a single attack (burst).

Since the rule can be interpreted multiple ways, I don't see any need to interpret it in such a way as to require relying on guesswork such as "well, maybe those rounds are explosive," instead of interpreting it in such a way as to be immediately inclusive of all known existing weapons in the book (i.e., "Since there are weapons in the book that deal mega-damage through bursts of rounds that individually inflict SDC, the rule about SDC not being able to stack up to inflict MD doesn't seem to apply in the case of burst fire").

Maybe they are very well shaped explosives doing SDC over a wide area but when focused by using an MDC casing creates an MDC plasma penitrator. Kinda like how the RPG creates a plasma lance on impact. Or they were Rifts Ramjet rounds before they released the Ramjet rounds

Maybe.
But I doubt that they put that much thought into things, especially since none of it is included in the weapon stats.

[Killer Cyborg]

Ah, ya know... I've read it a dozen times and it never sunk in that it was a burst weapon. Duh. Thanks KC.

No problem.

[Zer0 Kay]

Simply stating that a few write ups said that those weapons could didn't change the rule any as there were hundreds of weapons that could do more than 100SDC in a single attack but were not explosive so did not do any MDC.

Okay. List the weapons that had write-ups saying that even if they inflicted more than 100 SDC in an attack, they couldn't damage MDC structures.

I don't have to list the weapons of the RMB generation you just need to follow the old rules which is what I said I did: M.D.C. versus S.D.C.

You said that there were hundreds of weapons that could do more than 100 SDC in a single attack, but were not explosive so did not do any Mega-damage.
I was hoping you could list one or two of these hundreds.

Oh my mistake, I thought you wanted me to provide you with weapons that specifically said they did not do MD. Sure I'll list a couple, remember this is working off of old RMB rules with bursts.
Pg244. RMB
The Ingram with .45 ammo on full magazine burst does 40-240 SDC damage or upto 2MD
The Uzi with 9mm ammo on full magazine burst does 20-120 SDC damage or upto 1MD
These are both examples of weapons that are capable of doing more than 100SDC damage but should NEVER be capable of penitrating a tanks hull.
Are you going to hold me to the hundreds as a way to try to discredit my point? Or can I stop this silliness?
I'm sure I can get at least 100 out of "The Compendium of Contemporary Weapons"

I'm already familiar with the general rule outlined in the book, but the wording isn't exactly crystal clear.
"Even when combined for a total of 100 or more" seems to be referring more to different attacks from different weapons combining, or different attacks from the same weapon, than to be referring to multiple bullets/rounds within a single attack (burst).

Since the rule can be interpreted multiple ways, I don't see any need to interpret it in such a way as to require relying on guesswork such as "well, maybe those rounds are explosive," instead of interpreting it in such a way as to be immediately inclusive of all known existing weapons in the book (i.e., "Since there are weapons in the book that deal mega-damage through bursts of rounds that individually inflict SDC, the rule about SDC not being able to stack up to inflict MD doesn't seem to apply in the case of burst fire").[/burst] If all the SDC weapons that can do 100+ SDC in a single attack can do MD then why would the few weapons list that they do MD in their burst? That would border more so on stupidity then simply stating the write up says this one can't but the others can't so... this one can't and the others can't.

Maybe they are very well shaped explosives doing SDC over a wide area but when focused by using an MDC casing creates an MDC plasma penitrator. Kinda like how the RPG creates a plasma lance on impact. Or they were Rifts Ramjet rounds before they released the Ramjet rounds

Maybe.
But I doubt that they put that much thought into things, especially since none of it is included in the weapon stats.

... like PB puts much thought into everything else, like... I don't know writing clear rules?

[Killer Cyborg]

You said that there were hundreds of weapons that could do more than 100 SDC in a single attack, but were not explosive so did not do any Mega-damage.
I was hoping you could list one or two of these hundreds.

Oh my mistake, I thought you wanted me to provide you with weapons that specifically said they did not do MD. Sure I'll list a couple, remember this is working off of old RMB rules with bursts.
Pg244. RMB
The Ingram with .45 ammo on full magazine burst does 40-240 SDC damage or upto 2MD
The Uzi with 9mm ammo on full magazine burst does 20-120 SDC damage or upto 1MD
These are both examples of weapons that are capable of doing more than 100SDC damage but should NEVER be capable of penitrating a tanks hull.
Are you going to hold me to the hundreds as a way to try to discredit my point? Or can I stop this silliness?
I'm sure I can get at least 100 out of "The Compendium of Contemporary Weapons"

I don't have my books, so I can't say for certain, but I don't recall any one of those weapons stating that they're incapable of inflicting mega-damage.

SHOULD they be capable of penetrating tank armor?
Probably not. But then, that gets into the whole mess of SDC, AR, and PV.

[SkyeFyre]

In the books it states that multiple rounds that total above 100 SDC do not inflict mega-damage, however as KC pointed out there are some burst weapons that inflict MD; The Wellington guns from Mercenaries come to mind. So what it sounds like to me is that unless it specifically states that a machine gun (or other generally SDC burst weapons) does MD on a burst it does not.

The blanket rule seems to make it clear that bursts do not inflict mega-damage
and the other examples are merely exceptions to the rule

[Killer Cyborg]

In the books it states that multiple rounds that total above 100 SDC do not inflict mega-damage, however as KC pointed out there are some burst weapons that inflict MD; The Wellington guns from Mercenaries come to mind. So what it sounds like to me is that unless it specifically states that a machine gun (or other generally SDC burst weapons) does MD on a burst it does not.

The blanket rule seems to make it clear that bursts do not inflict mega-damage
and the other examples are merely exceptions to the rule

Unfortunately, the blanket rule isn't really that clear.
Neither the rule nor the example given for the rule in action seem to be directed at multiple rounds from the same gun in a single burst; the example given is for multiple shooters with multiple bursts, none of which seem likely to total 100+ SDC.

[Zer0 Kay]

You said that there were hundreds of weapons that could do more than 100 SDC in a single attack, but were not explosive so did not do any Mega-damage.
I was hoping you could list one or two of these hundreds.

Oh my mistake, I thought you wanted me to provide you with weapons that specifically said they did not do MD. Sure I'll list a couple, remember this is working off of old RMB rules with bursts.
Pg244. RMB
The Ingram with .45 ammo on full magazine burst does 40-240 SDC damage or upto 2MD
The Uzi with 9mm ammo on full magazine burst does 20-120 SDC damage or upto 1MD
These are both examples of weapons that are capable of doing more than 100SDC damage but should NEVER be capable of penitrating a tanks hull.
Are you going to hold me to the hundreds as a way to try to discredit my point? Or can I stop this silliness?
I'm sure I can get at least 100 out of "The Compendium of Contemporary Weapons"

I don't have my books, so I can't say for certain, but I don't recall any one of those weapons stating that they're incapable of inflicting mega-damage.

SHOULD they be capable of penetrating tank armor?
Probably not. But then, that gets into the whole mess of SDC, AR, and PV.

And again I didn't say that the weapons state that they can't, the rules state that. I stated that unless the rules or weapon write ups state that they CAN, then they can't

Here is a little tid bit from the mother of MDC

3. Conventional weapons, normal grenades, automatic weapons,
flamethrowers, even rams from an automobile, DO NOT harm
mega-structures, such as Veritech Fighters, Starships, and all
Human and Alien mecha.

and

Consider this example with a contemporary M.D.C. structure we all
recognize, a tank. There you are, sitting inside a tank; a powerful,
heavily armored (M.D.C.) weapon. A kid walks up to your tank and
begins to bounce a hard rubber ball against the hull of the tank. He
can do this all day long without damaging the tank in the tiniest way.
The kid picks up a rock and throws it, hard, against the tank. Again,
no damage is done other than a tiny nick in the paint. Now, pounding
with all his might against the hull with a baseball bat, the kid is scuffing
the daylights out of the paint jobr but still does no damage. Yet, all of
these items could affect and damage most items with a normal Structural
Damage Capacity (S.D.C.).
You're still sitting in your tank when somebody waltzes up and lets
go with a .357 Magnum at point-blank range. The bullets bounce off
the tank's armored hull, leaving only large gouges in the paint and
scratched armor. No damage is done. His two buddies whip out an Uzi
sub-machinegun and an M-16 assault rifle, and spray the tank with a
hail of bullets. The combined attack must number into the hundreds of
S.D.C. damage. But the tank's hull is undamaged because it is super
tough . . . M.D.C.! Normal weapons, even when combined, can not
damage a mega-structure. Only a weapon that inflicts mega-damage
(M.D.) can harm the tank.

The Uzi we've established can do 100s of SDC with a full clip... yet it states above that it can not do MDC
The M-16 does twice as much damage as the Uzi yet it too is stated here as being unable to do MDC

It is also interesting to note that in this printing (9th) it is MD and MSC Mega-STRUCTURALcapacity.

Besides did you miss this part

Combat Note: Typically, only a mega-damage weapon can harm a
M.D.C. structure. S.D.C. missiles and explosives that can inflict over
100 S.D.C. points of damage do inflict the equivalent of mega-damage.
In these rare cases, approximately every 100 S.D.C. points of damage
equals one mega-damage point. Always round down S.D.C. damage.
For example: A missile that inflicts 450 S.D.C. equals 4 M.D.C.

If most burst weapons can do MD it wouldn't say Typically and then identify missiles and explosives. Instead of just missiles and explosives it would also state burst fire weapons.

this is from the natural MDC section of the RMB

Like any other mega-damage structure, they can not be damaged
by S.D.C. type weapons, with the possible exception of high
explosives and missiles.

Hey while looking through RT I found somthing interesting that has nothing to do with this topic.

You can not roll with the impact of attacks from auto cannons,
machineguns, energy weapons, or plasma/napalm missiles.

!!

Heck even in the RMB canon example it states that they are armed with M-16s and sub-machine guns. Out of 3000 random rolls for an M-16 with a full magazine burst (4d6x10), which those bandits would be doing in the hopes to survive an encounter with an MDC vehicle, more than 60% in multiple samples was always over 100 SDC with the constant average being over 137 SDC. Now the example given in the text would be a stupid example for the toughness of MDC and its resistance to SDC weapons if the bandits were giving it anything less then everything they could in order to survive. Stating that the example given was less than full magazine bursts and rather a combination of all of the bandits single shots is tantamount to stating that Kevin is a complete and utter moron.

Now the RMB MDC example seems to mostly be a cut and paste from the old Rifts MD/MSC rules but convalutes it more due to there being 30 bandits shooting at the SAMAS with "mostly M-16 assault rifles and sub-machineguns." instead of "His two buddies whip out an Uzi sub-machinegun and an M-16 assault rifle."

Finally this from RT

Quick Mega-Damage and M.D.C. Reference Chart
• 1 M.D. Point equals approximately 100 S.D.C. points.
• 1 M.D. Point equals 100 Hit Points.
• Armor Ratings do not apply when up against a weapon that inflicts
mega-damage. This is always true!
• Normal weapons do absolutely no damage to mega-structures
(M.D.C.), even if the total damage is over 100 S.D.C.
• Only weapons that do M.D. can damage M.D.C.
Also See Mega-Damage and M.D.C. explaination in the beginning of
the book.

and from the RMB

1. Generally, 100 S.D.C. (or hit point) damage equals about one
M.D.C. point.
2. This also means that one point of Mega-Damage does approximately
100 S.D.C. points of damage.
3. Most conventional weapons do absolutely no damage to a megadamage
structure, even when combined for a total of 100 or more (See
example).

are refering to singular weapons from a broad catagory to do otherwise is pointless as we already know attacks from multiple weapons equaling over 100 doesn't count so then attacks from a single weapon doing over 100 also can not. Total in the RT is a better than combined. After all a burst attack IS just multiple attacks from a single weapon in rapid succession and is less likely to hit the exact same point at the same time to cause MDC to a structure than 100 snipers firing one bullet at the "same" time. It isn't like MDC is a forcefield and that the rounds from a burst weapon are capable of penitrating it because it is pelting the armor all over so that when the "one" hits it causes a fracture while a bunch of people firing multiple burst weapons, but not individually causing over 100 SDC but collectively being more efficient, causing over lets say 300 SDC but because it is at different or times the field had time to regenerate. Heck if everyone is shooting they are going to be putting more metal on metal at a faster rate than one person using a burst weapon. Point being Missiles and Explosives are cited and as those are the only constants within the "rare cases" unless the weapon is stated as being able to do MDC even with a burst it is not a "rare case" as fully autmatic SDC weapons in Rifts and RT and other MD settings are not "rare" then it stands that 4d6SDC on a full magazine burst (x10) CAN NOT DO MDC. This is the way RT and RMB were written and this is the way I play my games even though the way the RUE is written any weapon that does 100 SDC in a single attack does 1MD but then again all the weapons in RUE that are capable of such are written down as having a burst capable of doing an MD burst.

[Zer0 Kay]

In the books it states that multiple rounds that total above 100 SDC do not inflict mega-damage, however as KC pointed out there are some burst weapons that inflict MD; The Wellington guns from Mercenaries come to mind. So what it sounds like to me is that unless it specifically states that a machine gun (or other generally SDC burst weapons) does MD on a burst it does not.

The blanket rule seems to make it clear that bursts do not inflict mega-damage
and the other examples are merely exceptions to the rule

I said that and he wanted me to show him guns that said they didn't do MD even if it did above 100 SD on a burst. That is like asking me to that toys are not a choking hazard by providing him with a toy that says "This is not a choking hazard" and completely ignoring that the ones that ARE a choking hazard clearly state that.

Rules say NO
Certain Weapons say YES
This shows that those weapons are the exception to the rule not that all weapons can... otherwise there is no point of the statement on the weapons that said they could as it would be assumed.