range of mystic knights impervious to energy

[csbioborg]

exacty what does the mystic knight make impervious to energy
there are a couple possible answers to this
just the mystic knight's body

the mystic knight and his armour but not his weapons/gear

the mystic knights everything the mystic knight carries

if it is everything he carries what is there a limit

say he is in a Samas does that become impervious to energy
or the heavy TV armour from merc ops like the Atlas which is basically TW Power Armour

what about if he is carrying another person

What about anything he uses up to armour of ithan and other force fields like a naruni tech field.

[TechnoGothic]

Just the MK Himself. Not his Armor or Possessions.
Bursters go so far to mention what is protected under the PCC with their powers. Or used to.

I say Just the MK himself.

[Damian Magecraft]

I would say himself, his armor, and his gear. and that is it.
Using The Warbirds in Madhaven (pg 107) to back this stance.

For Power-armor... I would say no.
carrying a person... (Story dependent... make your own call here)
AoI or tech shielding? If generated from a physical source the generator is protected (assuming physical contact) the shields themselves no.

[Damian Magecraft]

Just the MK Himself. Not his Armor or Possessions.
Bursters go so far to mention what is protected under the PCC with their powers. Or used to.

I say Just the MK himself.

The Warbird write up in Madhaven makes it clear that unless the Imperv to Energy extends to the MKs armour and gear... other wise using them as mounts would be useless as the the MK would be naked and weaponless 15 seconds after the WB did its flame aura thing.

[csbioborg]

to play devil's advocate here
the madhaven knights might need to wear special clothing/armour that isimmune to fame much like the
canon bioborg from rifter 9 does (the flameeater I think is the name)

where did you getthat answer from Darkness?

[Damian Magecraft]

to play devil's advocate here
the madhaven knights might need to wear special clothing/armour that isimmune to fame much like the
canon bioborg from rifter 9 does (the flameeater I think is the name)

where did you getthat answer from Darkness?

But that argument assumes gear that is never described in the MK:WR write ups or in the WBs write up.
In the absence of hard data to that effect; the logical extrapolation is the field extends to what he wearing/carrying.

[Damian Magecraft]

to play devil's advocate here
the madhaven knights might need to wear special clothing/armour that isimmune to fame much like the
canon bioborg from rifter 9 does (the flameeater I think is the name)

where did you getthat answer from Darkness?

From the Palladium Books FAQ
http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/questions/index.html
Specificaly the O.C.C. section.

And that answer was created prior to the publication of Madhaven.

[drewkitty ~..~]

It you are a lazy GM, The MK and all his stuff.
It you are a realman GM, The MK and all he is wearing. (this is sort of implied by the type of armor they wear.)
If you are an AR GM, the only the MK himself and nothing else, not even his small clothes.

[Damian Magecraft]

to play devil's advocate here
the madhaven knights might need to wear special clothing/armour that isimmune to fame much like the
canon bioborg from rifter 9 does (the flameeater I think is the name)

where did you getthat answer from Darkness?

From the Palladium Books FAQ
http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/questions/index.html
Specificaly the O.C.C. section.

And that answer was created prior to the publication of Madhaven.

Madhaven pg.28 Middle Left of page. Power #4: "Impervious to Energy" is the same as it is in Federation of Magic. It has not been updated to indicate there is a change in how it works. By default this means it would be the same as the answer in the FAQ the Knight himself is impervious, his gear isnt.

The War Bird writeup on Pg. 108 of Madhaven it pretty much still says the Knight is immune to the energies and takes no damage. This is still in line with what has been stated already. It still does not say it dosnt damage his armor and gear.

As far as I see it the RAW is pretty clear on this thats its not intended to extend beyond the Knights body to protect their gear. Its house ruled or missinterpreted as protecting everything on the knight.

Also nothings stopping the knight from casting "Impervious to Energy" on themselves anyways if they know this spell or have it in a TW device. Also the higher rank Knights of the White Rose wear Armor of Ithan belts with 100 MDC availible 3 times a day. They certainly could activate that and only take 1d6 MD minus 1/2 from the aura while its active.

sorry this has been discussed to death before.
the warbird used as mounts points to the armor and gear as covered. Otherwise they are flying naked and weaponless (unless you are assuming all MK learn imp to energy).
Plus the FAQ is far from official. it does provide a good starting point however.

One big question about this debate...
Whats the big deal? so what if the armor is immune to energy? kinetics still do full damage. Its a fool who puts his trust into a single weapon.

[csbioborg]

well its important because it would be much easier to take on a mystic knight if his body was the only thing immune to energy

Sniper A shoot his naruni shoulder canon destroying mystic knight armour
Sniper B shoot's his .50 barret and kills the mystic knight
rinse and repeat

[The Beast]

exacty what does the mystic knight make impervious to energy
there are a couple possible answers to this
just the mystic knight's body

the mystic knight and his armour but not his weapons/gear

the mystic knights everything the mystic knight carries

if it is everything he carries what is there a limit

say he is in a Samas does that become impervious to energy
or the heavy TV armour from merc ops like the Atlas which is basically TW Power Armour

what about if he is carrying another person

What about anything he uses up to armour of ithan and other force fields like a naruni tech field.

Take your hand and put it against your chest, thumb touching, fingertips pointing up. If an object can fit against your body within that amount of space, then it should be covered by the impervious to energy. This would include just about all body armor types, but not power armor and beyond. Nor would it include other individuals.

[csbioborg]

exacty what does the mystic knight make impervious to energy
there are a couple possible answers to this
just the mystic knight's body

the mystic knight and his armour but not his weapons/gear

the mystic knights everything the mystic knight carries

if it is everything he carries what is there a limit

say he is in a Samas does that become impervious to energy
or the heavy TV armour from merc ops like the Atlas which is basically TW Power Armour

what about if he is carrying another person

What about anything he uses up to armour of ithan and other force fields like a naruni tech field.

Take your hand and put it against your chest, thumb touching, fingertips pointing up. If an object can fit against your body within that amount of space, then it should be covered by the impervious to energy. This would include just about all body armor types, but not power armor and beyond. Nor would it include other individuals.

that is pretty reasonable
so the big tw armour and weapons still can be attacked
or his back pack
but not the mystic knight and his personal armour

[csbioborg]

I am inclinced to say psi stalker can't be magicians because they burn up all their ppe
but that is just a guess

[Balabanto]

I always say it's just the Knight and not his stuff. If you ride a warbird, it counts only for that Warbird.

This comes from years of GMing via the "Path of Least Resistance" method. This method involves one simple rule. If it isn't explicitly stated, it doesn't work that way.

[TechnoGothic]

Just Cover the MK naked Body.

Read the dumb WarBirds again.
Ok, Riding them only Inflicts 1d6 ONCE. Its not per Melee, Per Mnute. JUST ONCE, if your the Rider.
A MK would be willing to inflict 1d6 MD ONCE. As long as he stay on the Warbord he does not continue to take damage. Again the reading does not say per turn/minute etc...

Impervious to Energy = Only the MK Himself. Fact.

[jaymz]

No offense to those who think the FAQ is right but if it is then whoever answred it is a fool. The reason impervious to energy is meant to so important is so that energy weapons woudl be useless against the mystic knight as an opponent. Make that abiity only to hisnaked body then whoopdeedoo he is imperious to energy eyt we can detroy his armour and his weapons. Wow impervious to energy now means next to nothing. Yay, way to nerf a great OCC.

Also this is the same FAQ that took years to finally answer the 2 attacks or 2 attack plus HTH questions and only confused everyone in the process until the GM guide came out so you all may want to take any answers the FAQ gives few a few pounds of salt.

Making it only the MKs naked body makes no sense in teh context of what the character is. Allowing it to include his armour and carried weapons, makes sense in the context of the character.

Same goes for the spell ItE. It makes no sense to boher witeh spell if it only covers your naked body.

Yet ANOTHER example of PB using poor wording in thier game materials.

[The Galactus Kid]

I would say himself, his armor, and his gear. and that is it.
Using The Warbirds in Madhaven (pg 107) to back this stance.

Considering I wrote the warbirds and the Knights of the White Rose, I would agree with this. This is how it was intended.

[BIBBI]

well speaking in game sense, having impervious to energy extend to gear would be completely overpowered, it essentially makes you invincible to anyone except guys that carry around solid projectile weapons, which is very rare, at least in the campaigns. and also It said in one of the books, though I do not remember which one, that unless otherwise specified, impervious to X only applies to your physical bodies, not any of the gear you are carrying.

[jaymz]

well speaking in game sense, having impervious to energy extend to gear would be completely overpowered, it essentially makes you invincible to anyone except guys that carry around solid projectile weapons, which is very rare, at least in the campaigns. and also It said in one of the books, though I do not remember which one, that unless otherwise specified, impervious to X only applies to your physical bodies, not any of the gear you are carrying.

I'll say again, making the power only to your naked body makes it a useless power to have as yo uwear armou ti is fully vulnerable and if youdont a stray bullet can kill you. That makes NO sense. The whole POINT to them having impervious to energy is the very fact you HAVE to use a different way to take them out not using energy. Tha is why theyare asuch a thread to start with. Why does no one seem to grasp that fact?

[Colt47]

Need a thread with answers born from community discussion. This way we can avoid having the same conversations pop up all the time, or simply redirect to the FAQ. At this point the community on this board probably has discussed more nooks and crannies in the game system than some of the games writers have.

[jaymz]

Need a thread with answers born from community discussion. This way we can avoid having the same conversations pop up all the time, or simply redirect to the FAQ. At this point the community on this board probably has discussed more nooks and crannies in the game system than some of the games writers have.

The FAQ answer is not canon. The power makes no sense as naked body only. It comlpetely nerfs the whole point of having hte power. AS does doing that tot eh spell. WHy cast Impervious to Energy if it doesnt protect anything but yourself?

The entire idea for hte spell or power is to protect yoursefl from energy not essentialyl NOT protect yourself from energy.

[Damian Magecraft]

well speaking in game sense, having impervious to energy extend to gear would be completely overpowered, it essentially makes you invincible to anyone except guys that carry around solid projectile weapons, which is very rare, at least in the campaigns. and also It said in one of the books, though I do not remember which one, that unless otherwise specified, impervious to X only applies to your physical bodies, not any of the gear you are carrying.

Ram jet rounds for sdc fire arms, rail guns, vibro-weapons, SNPS fists, the list goes on. Kinetic weapons exist and are not as rare as one would think. And until you can back the last part of your post up with an actual source citing. I think we are just going to have to accept the writers view on this...

I would say himself, his armor, and his gear. and that is it.
Using The Warbirds in Madhaven (pg 107) to back this stance.

Considering I wrote the warbirds and the Knights of the White Rose, I would agree with this. This is how it was intended.

That sums up the answer nicely I think.

[Balabanto]

I would say himself, his armor, and his gear. and that is it.
Using The Warbirds in Madhaven (pg 107) to back this stance.

Considering I wrote the warbirds and the Knights of the White Rose, I would agree with this. This is how it was intended.

Well, normally, I agree with everything you say, except this one salient point of game mechanics. This class is not balanced if you do it this way, because the class is easily as powerful as a Dragon at high levels if you do so. 1.5 x the money=1.5x the gear. If that gear is protected, it's not really one ability. It's 2.5x the ability, and that's what makes it broken.

This is the real reason why I side with the people who say it only protects the Knight and not his stuff. Because otherwise the means of destroying the Knight's stuff is limited and he has more stuff than everyone else.

[Damian Magecraft]

I would say himself, his armor, and his gear. and that is it.
Using The Warbirds in Madhaven (pg 107) to back this stance.

Considering I wrote the warbirds and the Knights of the White Rose, I would agree with this. This is how it was intended.

Well, normally, I agree with everything you say, except this one salient point of game mechanics. This class is not balanced if you do it this way, because the class is easily as powerful as a Dragon at high levels if you do so. 1.5 x the money=1.5x the gear. If that gear is protected, it's not really one ability. It's 2.5x the ability, and that's what makes it broken.

This is the real reason why I side with the people who say it only protects the Knight and not his stuff. Because otherwise the means of destroying the Knight's stuff is limited and he has more stuff than everyone else.

oh please...
1.5x the money does not automatically mean 1.5x the gear it could just as easily mean 1.5x the quality of the gear. Either way so what if its harder for you to **** up his day? When you do its going to really **** up his day.

[Balabanto]

I'm stunned that for someone who has played this game as long as you have you doesn't understand the concept of force multipliers and less necessary replenishment. Anyone who designs games knows that no matter how you look at things, in the end, these are really just games of numbers when you're on the design part, and it's all about how well you conceal it.

In this case, I think you're not looking at what can be done with all that extra money, especially at the higher levels of play. Mack has already shown people multiple times how crunching numbers gets really nasty in Rifts. I suggest you have a look at some of the things he's created again. The reason this isn't balanced is because then the Mystic Knight's biggest enemy is a high XP giving GM and his best friend a low XP giving GM. The amount of XP the GM awards should not affect the power level of a class ability that significantly. But in this case, because of the impervious to energy and how much of his gear gets destroyed versus the gear of those around him, it does.

That can't happen. That's actually unfair to individual GM playstyles. Therefore, unless the Knight is immune and not his gear, the class is not correctly designed. End of story.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. First, I want to say that since I don't really play Rifts (and have never played nor had anyone play a Mystic Knight) that I have no personal stake or concern on this question. With that said, I do want to address a few points I've seen in this thread, mostly because it made me shake my head and I saw them more than once with no response.

Now, as to Impervious to Energy only protecting the user and not the armor being useless ... this is limited thinking. If it only protecting the Mystic Knight was useless, then it would mean that the Cyber-Armor of a Cyber-Knight is useless because it doesn't protect the Cyber-Knight's armor or gear (I'm sure some feel it is uselss, but this is a canon fact that it exists). The Cyber-Armor isn't a primary defense. It's a back-up/potential life saver. Oh geez, all your armor just got destroyed and that shot would have killed you if not for that Cyber-Armor ... but it didn't protect my armor and gear so it's useless? Similarly, characters can't wear armor 24/7. If something happens while out of their main armor this can be the difference between a character who lives and rolling up a new one.

Now, as for the Mystic Knight, I have no issues with the fact that this rival of Cyber-Knights has a similar limited protection same as their rival. Actually, it makes a certain degree of sense (though if I had to pick I'd go with the Mystic Knight invulnerability over hoping the attack rolls under my A.R.). This doesn't make it useless. For example if someone takes a shot with one of the plentifully available laser sniper rifles while the Mystic Knight is out of armor, it can be a life saver.

I'm not sure why people think that something has to work in EVERY situation for it to be of any use (since the comment of Cyber-Knight's Zen Combat came up in the topic of useless). Of course, I should state I'm a fairly firm believer in that I don't have to be the best at everything. Protection doesn't have to cover everything to be useful. If not protecting gear made something useless, then Dead Boy armor is useless since doesn't protect a soldier's gear.

Another point (before I continue) is to address Ninjabunny saying Armor of Ithan covers gear. This is a complete and total falsehood. It creates a suit of armor (invisible and weightless, but still a suit of armor). If it covered gear like guns then you'd have to deplete that armor before you could shoot anyone. Armor of Ithan may be magical, but it's still armor. Now, whether or not it can be cast over armor is a matter of some debate. There is the stance that it magically fits over the armor, and the stance that you can only wear one suit of armor. That one is at least unclear and can be debated (not that I intend to debate it or derail this thread). But saying it covers gear is just making things up (or at least a house rule).

Now, beyond that, we can look at some of the facts. We have an in book example from Madhaven and the clearly stated stance of the writer. That's pretty good. There's still minor room for debate since the rules aren't always crystal clear, and freelancers may interpret it one way that's incorrect. Then there is the chance things like that get written but are inaccurate (this may have been missed or not considered during editing). With Palladium (and I mean this with no disrespect) it is completely possible. All in all though, I would say that's the most official answer we're going to get (unless Kevin decides to address this personally) and is good enough for me.

Now, on a personal note, I'll give my take on the matter. I'm not sure when Impervious to Energy (spell) was created. But if created in a S.D.C. setting the way it applies can have a very different feel from Rifts. Not protecting armor won't be as critical of a factor, especially since they have A.R. in S.D.C. settings and all attacks are S.D.C. damage so even if a projectile hits it's not instant death. Beyond that, I'd say if a Mystic Knight was created in the Rifts main book (when Rifts first came out) this would quite likely only apply to the person. The original setting was supposed to be a bit more survival, fear of death, choose your fights carefully because if your armor gets damaged you may not be able to repair it feel. Now, by the time Federation of Magic came out, we were long passed that point. Things were made more powerful, some abilities created just bcause they're cool, etc. Considering when it came out, I'd say that it's quite likely it does apply to armor (and possibly gear).

Well, that was kind of long winded, wasn't it? It's the "useless" bit that really made me respond. I'm getting tired though and should end this now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[TechnoGothic]

well speaking in game sense, having impervious to energy extend to gear would be completely overpowered, it essentially makes you invincible to anyone except guys that carry around solid projectile weapons, which is very rare, at least in the campaigns. and also It said in one of the books, though I do not remember which one, that unless otherwise specified, impervious to X only applies to your physical bodies, not any of the gear you are carrying.

I'll say again, making the power only to your naked body makes it a useless power to have as yo uwear armou ti is fully vulnerable and if youdont a stray bullet can kill you. That makes NO sense. The whole POINT to them having impervious to energy is the very fact you HAVE to use a different way to take them out not using energy. Tha is why theyare asuch a thread to start with. Why does no one seem to grasp that fact?

Then They Need To Rewrite the OCC Mystic Knight in another Revision of the Federation of Magic Worldbook.
Reword the Impervious to Energy to : "Field" of Impervious to Energy.

If it extends from your Body it is a surrounding Field Effect.

@GK no offense, I Like the MK too, but the Madhaven stuff was too much like a Fanboy love piece. You were trying to make them more powerful in every respect. Weapons, Innate abilities, Gear, Transportation methods. And it showed in that book. Though I did enjoy reading it, mind you.

Back to the Topic. The Orginal Mystic Knights from FoM are not useless if the power of Impervious to Energy is limited to their naked Body. Example : A MK and CS Grunt is fighting each other. The CS grunt is firing away for awhile. By the time the MK is in range (after his pistols ran out of juice) he has been saving his PPE/ISP for close range fighting. The MK's Armor is Trashed already after his Magic armor time elapsed. No Matter, this CS punk is using only Lasers it seems. A Laser Rifle and Pistol. The rifle has a large E-canister. The firing stops. The MK leaps out again and closes in while the Grunt is either trying to change clips or something. The Grunt throws out a Granade dang it. Ohh its a Laser granade, no problem. Without Armor the MK rushes in and uses his Deathbringer to disarm the Grunt quickly. The Grunt is shocked that a nearly naked man has beaten him. The MK sinks his sword into his throat...

See a good quick example of Why it is not useless.
WHY Fire yourself out as Mercs if you never spend money on Armor replacements.
I dont see why the MKs Armor themselves so Heavily "IF" their armor is protected too. Specially when so few opponets use Projectile Weapons of any kind in RIFTS.

I see the MK Impervious to Energy Power like the CK Cyber-Armor. Back-up ability. Not their entire focus.

[TechnoGothic]

Greetings and Salutations. First, I want to say that since I don't really play Rifts (and have never played nor had anyone play a Mystic Knight) that I have no personal stake or concern on this question. With that said, I do want to address a few points I've seen in this thread, mostly because it made me shake my head and I saw them more than once with no response.

Now, as to Impervious to Energy only protecting the user and not the armor being useless ... this is limited thinking. If it only protecting the Mystic Knight was useless, then it would mean that the Cyber-Armor of a Cyber-Knight is useless because it doesn't protect the Cyber-Knight's armor or gear (I'm sure some feel it is uselss, but this is a canon fact that it exists). The Cyber-Armor isn't a primary defense. It's a back-up/potential life saver. Oh geez, all your armor just got destroyed and that shot would have killed you if not for that Cyber-Armor ... but it didn't protect my armor and gear so it's useless? Similarly, characters can't wear armor 24/7. If something happens while out of their main armor this can be the difference between a character who lives and rolling up a new one.

Now, as for the Mystic Knight, I have no issues with the fact that this rival of Cyber-Knights has a similar limited protection same as their rival. Actually, it makes a certain degree of sense (though if I had to pick I'd go with the Mystic Knight invulnerability over hoping the attack rolls under my A.R.). This doesn't make it useless. For example if someone takes a shot with one of the plentifully available laser sniper rifles while the Mystic Knight is out of armor, it can be a life saver.

I'm not sure why people think that something has to work in EVERY situation for it to be of any use (since the comment of Cyber-Knight's Zen Combat came up in the topic of useless). Of course, I should state I'm a fairly firm believer in that I don't have to be the best at everything. Protection doesn't have to cover everything to be useful. If not protecting gear made something useless, then Dead Boy armor is useless since doesn't protect a soldier's gear.

Another point (before I continue) is to address Ninjabunny saying Armor of Ithan covers gear. This is a complete and total falsehood. It creates a suit of armor (invisible and weightless, but still a suit of armor). If it covered gear like guns then you'd have to deplete that armor before you could shoot anyone. Armor of Ithan may be magical, but it's still armor. Now, whether or not it can be cast over armor is a matter of some debate. There is the stance that it magically fits over the armor, and the stance that you can only wear one suit of armor. That one is at least unclear and can be debated (not that I intend to debate it or derail this thread). But saying it covers gear is just making things up (or at least a house rule).

Now, beyond that, we can look at some of the facts. We have an in book example from Madhaven and the clearly stated stance of the writer. That's pretty good. There's still minor room for debate since the rules aren't always crystal clear, and freelancers may interpret it one way that's incorrect. Then there is the chance things like that get written but are inaccurate (this may have been missed or not considered during editing). With Palladium (and I mean this with no disrespect) it is completely possible. All in all though, I would say that's the most official answer we're going to get (unless Kevin decides to address this personally) and is good enough for me.

Now, on a personal note, I'll give my take on the matter. I'm not sure when Impervious to Energy (spell) was created. But if created in a S.D.C. setting the way it applies can have a very different feel from Rifts. Not protecting armor won't be as critical of a factor, especially since they have A.R. in S.D.C. settings and all attacks are S.D.C. damage so even if a projectile hits it's not instant death. Beyond that, I'd say if a Mystic Knight was created in the Rifts main book (when Rifts first came out) this would quite likely only apply to the person. The original setting was supposed to be a bit more survival, fear of death, choose your fights carefully because if your armor gets damaged you may not be able to repair it feel. Now, by the time Federation of Magic came out, we were long passed that point. Things were made more powerful, some abilities created just bcause they're cool, etc. Considering when it came out, I'd say that it's quite likely it does apply to armor (and possibly gear).

Well, that was kind of long winded, wasn't it? It's the "useless" bit that really made me respond. I'm getting tired though and should end this now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Well said...

[Balabanto]

So because the knight has a power that forces people to try something other then lasers the class is unbalanced?
Because the knight Gear that is on his person I.E Weapons and armor is covered it's an unfair power?
Does that mean AoI is unfair it too can cover body armor and gear?
Honestly the power not covering his armor seems to me a bit silly and pretty much makes the power as useless as The Zen-combat of a CK against a Demon who's not using tech.

The problem with the ability is experience points and how they're awarded in any individual Rifts game. Let's arbitrarily say that I give out 1000 XP per successful adventure, and pay the characters 1000 per mission. I know this is insanely low, but I need the numbers to be somewhat recognizable. By the time the character has done about 35 missions, the character has 52,000 credits compared to 35,000, right?

Now let's do this again with 333 XP per mission and the same cost, because the amount you get paid is usually relative to your level in most games based on your competence and reputation. I just multiplied that disparity by three, and the characters are the same level. That's why it can only cover the Knight and not his gear, because the ability should not be more or less powerful based on how the GM awards experience points. In this case, 156,000 credits to 105,000.

I realize that these numbers are kind of arbitrary, but it means that in slower advancement games, the Mystic Knight class is way more powerful than in faster advancement games. You can still feel free to disagree with me. The reason why I do this is because I run a slower advancement game. Your mileage may vary.

The hardest thing about this argument is though I feel that this how the math works, it's sort of like throwing GK under the bus, which I really don't want to do either. Remember that my perspective on this is a little bit different from the rest of you. I don't just run games, I also design Hero System products, so my insight into this situation may be slightly different from yours.

[jaymz]

well speaking in game sense, having impervious to energy extend to gear would be completely overpowered, it essentially makes you invincible to anyone except guys that carry around solid projectile weapons, which is very rare, at least in the campaigns. and also It said in one of the books, though I do not remember which one, that unless otherwise specified, impervious to X only applies to your physical bodies, not any of the gear you are carrying.

I'll say again, making the power only to your naked body makes it a useless power to have as yo uwear armou ti is fully vulnerable and if youdont a stray bullet can kill you. That makes NO sense. The whole POINT to them having impervious to energy is the very fact you HAVE to use a different way to take them out not using energy. Tha is why theyare asuch a thread to start with. Why does no one seem to grasp that fact?

Then They Need To Rewrite the OCC Mystic Knight in another Revision of the Federation of Magic Worldbook.
Reword the Impervious to Energy to : "Field" of Impervious to Energy.

If it extends from your Body it is a surrounding Field Effect.

@GK no offense, I Like the MK too, but the Madhaven stuff was too much like a Fanboy love piece. You were trying to make them more powerful in every respect. Weapons, Innate abilities, Gear, Transportation methods. And it showed in that book. Though I did enjoy reading it, mind you.

Back to the Topic. The Orginal Mystic Knights from FoM are not useless if the power of Impervious to Energy is limited to their naked Body. Example : A MK and CS Grunt is fighting each other. The CS grunt is firing away for awhile. By the time the MK is in range (after his pistols ran out of juice) he has been saving his PPE/ISP for close range fighting. The MK's Armor is Trashed already after his Magic armor time elapsed. No Matter, this CS punk is using only Lasers it seems. A Laser Rifle and Pistol. The rifle has a large E-canister. The firing stops. The MK leaps out again and closes in while the Grunt is either trying to change clips or something. The Grunt throws out a Granade dang it. Ohh its a Laser granade, no problem. Without Armor the MK rushes in and uses his Deathbringer to disarm the Grunt quickly. The Grunt is shocked that a nearly naked man has beaten him. The MK sinks his sword into his throat...

See a good quick example of Why it is not useless.
WHY Fire yourself out as Mercs if you never spend money on Armor replacements.
I dont see why the MKs Armor themselves so Heavily "IF" their armor is protected too. Specially when so few opponets use Projectile Weapons of any kind in RIFTS.

I see the MK Impervious to Energy Power like the CK Cyber-Armor. Back-up ability. Not their entire focus.

But now that the MKs armour is gone sid CS punk can now kill him with a lucky vibro-blade strike because well the MKs Armour is all gone.

Guys come on READ the MK entry the whole class is meant to be an anti-energy class. ANTI-ENERGY. They can sap PPE, e-clips etc. Yet oh yeah they aren't REALLY all that tough afterall because well I can kill him with an sdc knife once I just blast him till his armour is gone and go to melee with him when he gets closer.

Again the WHOLE POINT of the class is to make you have the THINK of other ways to deal with him that just blasting him till his armour is gone. The Bonuses theyget for combat are NOT Tthe be all end all and very good rolls on a CS Grunt could put you in a Postition to be to do just what I said above. Great now an elite GRUNT can take on a Mytsic Knight yay, yep wow they are reallypowerful aren;t they?

I am sorry but allowing the ItE to cover thier armour and sayign thats too powerful indicates to me laziness and not wanting to deal with a REAL threat to a party that uses mostly energy weapons.

There is a REASON that there are projectile weapons available to characters at Character Creation. Maybe THINK when you make your character and choose your gear rather than think OOOO SHINY AND BIG. Because all the arguments against allow ItE to work the way it was seemingly intened (since the MK is an ANTI-ENERGY class in general) indicates to me players who can't handle a truly difficult opponent and just want to be able to blast him as much as possible without having to think.

Allowing ItE to cover armour and gear on his person is NOT that powerful. Learn from encountering one. Prepare for the next encounter. If all of the weapons in your group are Energy then that is your own fault for not thinking and better preparing for the world that is Rifts.

To me nerfing at as such to be only the naked person not only nerfs the whole concept behind the class but also nerfs the spell because why bother with ItE if you can cast AoI and be protected from everything rather than just energy and at a cheaper PPE Cost?

[TechnoGothic]

But now that the MKs armour is gone sid CS punk can now kill him with a lucky vibro-blade strike because well the MKs Armour is all gone.

The Energy Field around the Vibro-Blade would be ignored. The Grunt might as well be using a Kabar knife againt a MK. The Vibro-Energy field does the damage remember.

Guys come on READ the MK entry the whole class is meant to be an anti-energy class. ANTI-ENERGY. They can sap PPE, e-clips etc. Yet oh yeah they aren't REALLY all that tough afterall because well I can kill him with an sdc knife once I just blast him till his armour is gone and go to melee with him when he gets closer.

Again the WHOLE POINT of the class is to make you have the THINK of other ways to deal with him that just blasting him till his armour is gone. The Bonuses theyget for combat are NOT Tthe be all end all and very good rolls on a CS Grunt could put you in a Postition to be to do just what I said above. Great now an elite GRUNT can take on a Mytsic Knight yay, yep wow they are reallypowerful aren;t they?

I am sorry but allowing the ItE to cover thier armour and sayign thats too powerful indicates to me laziness and not wanting to deal with a REAL threat to a party that uses mostly energy weapons.

There is a REASON that there are projectile weapons available to characters at Character Creation. Maybe THINK when you make your character and choose your gear rather than think OOOO SHINY AND BIG. Because all the arguments against allow ItE to work the way it was seemingly intened (since the MK is an ANTI-ENERGY class in general) indicates to me players who can't handle a truly difficult opponent and just want to be able to blast him as much as possible without having to think.

Allowing ItE to cover armour and gear on his person is NOT that powerful. Learn from encountering one. Prepare for the next encounter. If all of the weapons in your group are Energy then that is your own fault for not thinking and better preparing for the world that is Rifts.

To me nerfing at as such to be only the naked person not only nerfs the whole concept behind the class but also nerfs the spell because why bother with ItE if you can cast AoI and be protected from everything rather than just energy and at a cheaper PPE Cost?

No It LAZY to rule a Special Power about the Person himself covers his Entire Armor and Equipment.

It was an Energy Aura, They would have said so. Its Not an Aura is it.
It was Never meant to be a Aura Power, and is clear in the Orginal Write up.

They are still Might and Feared Badasses-in-the-Extreme. Their Body is Impervious to Energy for FREE. No PPE Cost. Since Most Opponets except Cyborgs or Power-Armor use Energy Weapons, this is a Huge bonus for them. Once their Armor is gone, now they dont have to fear the Energy Rifles, Pistoles, etc... and Since most Man-Portable Projectile weapons are still SDC based, at worse they get shot with a bullet.

The Innate MK power is not a Spell for starters. Its an Innate ability of their Body.
Also, they can Learn Impervious to Energy the Spell. Which would protect their gear, armor, as it is an aura effect.

I personally would have given them a More Limited Resistance to Energy akin to Psi-Slingers, since their ability is Free and cover all Energy. That is Nurfing them.

[jaymz]

But now that the MKs armour is gone sid CS punk can now kill him with a lucky vibro-blade strike because well the MKs Armour is all gone.

The Energy Field around the Vibro-Blade would be ignored. The Grunt might as well be using a Kabar knife againt a MK. The Vibro-Energy field does the damage remember.

Guys come on READ the MK entry the whole class is meant to be an anti-energy class. ANTI-ENERGY. They can sap PPE, e-clips etc. Yet oh yeah they aren't REALLY all that tough afterall because well I can kill him with an sdc knife once I just blast him till his armour is gone and go to melee with him when he gets closer.

Again the WHOLE POINT of the class is to make you have the THINK of other ways to deal with him that just blasting him till his armour is gone. The Bonuses theyget for combat are NOT Tthe be all end all and very good rolls on a CS Grunt could put you in a Postition to be to do just what I said above. Great now an elite GRUNT can take on a Mytsic Knight yay, yep wow they are reallypowerful aren;t they?

I am sorry but allowing the ItE to cover thier armour and sayign thats too powerful indicates to me laziness and not wanting to deal with a REAL threat to a party that uses mostly energy weapons.

There is a REASON that there are projectile weapons available to characters at Character Creation. Maybe THINK when you make your character and choose your gear rather than think OOOO SHINY AND BIG. Because all the arguments against allow ItE to work the way it was seemingly intened (since the MK is an ANTI-ENERGY class in general) indicates to me players who can't handle a truly difficult opponent and just want to be able to blast him as much as possible without having to think.

Allowing ItE to cover armour and gear on his person is NOT that powerful. Learn from encountering one. Prepare for the next encounter. If all of the weapons in your group are Energy then that is your own fault for not thinking and better preparing for the world that is Rifts.

To me nerfing at as such to be only the naked person not only nerfs the whole concept behind the class but also nerfs the spell because why bother with ItE if you can cast AoI and be protected from everything rather than just energy and at a cheaper PPE Cost?

No It LAZY to rule a Special Power about the Person himself covers his Entire Armor and Equipment.

It was an Energy Aura, They would have said so. Its Not an Aura is it.
It was Never meant to be a Aura Power, and is clear in the Orginal Write up.

They are still Might and Feared Badasses-in-the-Extreme. Their Body is Impervious to Energy for FREE. No PPE Cost. Since Most Opponets except Cyborgs or Power-Armor use Energy Weapons, this is a Huge bonus for them. Once their Armor is gone, now they dont have to fear the Energy Rifles, Pistoles, etc... and Since most Man-Portable Projectile weapons are still SDC based, at worse they get shot with a bullet.

The Innate MK power is not a Spell for starters. Its an Innate ability of their Body.

I personally would have given them a More Limited Resistance to Energy akin to Psi-Slingers, since their ability is Free and cover all Energy. That is Nurfing them.

Any Man at arms that isnt a basic grunt can actually take on an MK with at least a 50/50 chance of success so they are hardly the badasses you seem to think they are. Th whol concept of the charcater is that they are anit-energy. HOw does every miss that?

Lazy to let a powerful opponent BE powerful and force his opponents to think of a different tactic than well lets just blow his stuff up then we can stab him with a knife or shoot with a handgun. Seems to me allowing them to be EASIER for opponents to deal with is the lazy way not making it more difficult.

But dont take what I say about it as such, I'll lay my money on the author that wrote Madhaven since that material IS in fact canon and really nothing more than a extrapolation of the original OCC. He wrote it with the power being that it is an aura.

If it isn't the aura and it works exactley like the spell, as it is said to do, then you have just nerfed the spell as well. In a world where magic is typically outclassed by tech already you just nerfed it slightly more. Hooray for you.

I am still trying to understand how so many think allowing it to be an aura (as it was intended if you just READ the OCC and all teh abilities they get indicating htey are ANTI-energy in general adn this woudl just be part of that) as being so overpowering. It makes me laugh in fact because it just shows that a lot of peopel aren;t able to think their way around something and woudl rather nerf it than think of a way to deal with it.

[TechnoGothic]

It never states in the OCC it is an Aura effect/power for them.

You keep saying making it only effects their body is nerfing the OCC. Its Not.
Yes their stupid leather looking armor is now vulnerable to Energy attacks. So it their gear they are carring. So freaking What ? They themselves are still Impervious to Energy will most likely save their butts in combat where 999 out of 1000 opponets are using Energy weapons of some kind.

Take a Look at what your typical CS Grunt or Merc carries for weapons in general. Energy Weapons, and maybe a knife of some kind usually. Never mind a Vibro-Knife/sword, etc would be useless against a Mystic Knight also, as the its the Energy Field which destroys the object not the knife/sword itself. At Worse your give an Mk a sdc Cut with the actual blade, as the energy field would be ignored.

They are Energy Manipulators not Anti-Energy. Reread them.

Power #1 : Channel PPE. REad It.
Power #2 : Fire Energy Bolt. Read It.
Power #3 : Steal & Redirect PPE. Read It.
Power #4 : Impervious to Energy. Read It.

They are Not Anti-Energy based. They are Energy Manipulators, its clear and simple.
What makes them So Feared ?? Umm Power 1, Yepp. Power 2 Hell yeah. Power 3 For other mages/mystic Ohh yeah, wet your pants. Power 4 ... not an Aura effect, but still very useful to them, and is not their Focus.
Add in the HtH Training Skills, Mystic Magics, and you have a Baddasss indeed.
An Opponet to be feared for sure.

[jaymz]

It never states in the OCC it is an Aura effect/power for them.

You keep saying making it only effects their body is nerfing the OCC. Its Not.
Yes their stupid leather looking armor is now vulnerable to Energy attacks. So it their gear they are carring. So freaking What ? They themselves are still Impervious to Energy will most likely save their butts in combat where 999 out of 1000 opponets are using Energy weapons of some kind.

Take a Look at what your typical CS Grunt or Merc carries for weapons in general. Energy Weapons, and maybe a knife of some kind usually. Never mind a Vibro-Knife/sword, etc would be useless against a Mystic Knight also, as the its the Energy Field which destroys the object not the knife/sword itself. At Worse your give an Mk a sdc Cut with the actual blade, as the energy field would be ignored.

They are Energy Manipulators not Anti-Energy. Reread them.

Power #1 : Channel PPE. REad It.
Power #2 : Fire Energy Bolt. Read It.
Power #3 : Steal & Redirect PPE. Read It.
Power #4 : Impervious to Energy. Read It.

They are Not Anti-Energy based. They are Energy Manipulators, its clear and simple.
What makes them So Feared ?? Umm Power 1, Yepp. Power 2 Hell yeah. Power 3 For other mages/mystic Ohh yeah, wet your pants. Power 4 ... not an Aura effect, but still very useful to them, and is not their Focus.
Add in the HtH Training Skills, Mystic Magics, and you have a Baddasss indeed.
An Opponet to be feared for sure.

Badass to whom? Any non basic grunt type can in fact take them on on relative equal footing. Channeling PPE while handy (and even int he case of a rialgun useless if you have no actual ammo to fire) isn't all that great, Fire enrgy bolt is not all that badass (essentially the equivalent to an energy rifle oddly enough), steal adn redirect ppe is only effective if you are dumb enought o get within 50 ft of hi which mages have no reason to get that close to ANYONE most fo the time so not exactly badass there, and the way you seem to think ItE works doesnt make it all that badass either.

A mystic knight is a Mystic with Men At Arms trainign and even with what they have he isnt that badass sorry to say. and I still say nerfing ItE to his physical body is nerfing both the class to a degree (because they are NOT as badass as everyone seems to think) and then in turn nerfing the spell as well.

Make ItE the way it is intened in a Canon book and THEN he becomes a lot more badass. Keep to his physcial body then anyone who as above everage stats and a knife as a back up (pretty much every class in the game) has a decent chance of beating one. Doesn't sound all that badass to me. I've played them and played against them. They AREN'T as bad ass as you people make them out to be and that was WITH it being an aura.

Saying it should be restricted to his/her physcial body would be like me saying a Glitterboy shouldn't be laser resistant because it has so much MDC to begin with for it's size.

[johnkretzer]

Back to the Topic. The Orginal Mystic Knights from FoM are not useless if the power of Impervious to Energy is limited to their naked Body. Example : A MK and CS Grunt is fighting each other. The CS grunt is firing away for awhile. By the time the MK is in range (after his pistols ran out of juice) he has been saving his PPE/ISP for close range fighting. The MK's Armor is Trashed already after his Magic armor time elapsed. No Matter, this CS punk is using only Lasers it seems. A Laser Rifle and Pistol. The rifle has a large E-canister. The firing stops. The MK leaps out again and closes in while the Grunt is either trying to change clips or something. The Grunt throws out a Granade dang it. Ohh its a Laser granade, no problem. Without Armor the MK rushes in and uses his Deathbringer to disarm the Grunt quickly. The Grunt is shocked that a nearly naked man has beaten him. The MK sinks his sword into his throat....

This example is sooo fixed.

1) The CS grunt don't use laser grenades. Those are made by Wilk's...

2) Even if they did....the CS grunt and most mercs would use a frag. grenade to deal with the naked guy. As that is a anti-personel grenade and also a whole lot more commopn than say a laser grenade.

The problem is two fold here with not extending to the MK's armor.
1) It just means replacing the armor becomes a endless credit sink that needs to be replaced....which becomes boring for players after a while....yeah at 1.5 credit per mission( which is just a freakin guideline by the way.....a PC MK does not have to recieve that) means hey look I get to replace more armor that is useless because 'everybody' uses energy weapons...

2) The other problem is that everyone knows about this ability. So people do normaly carry solid projections weapons just because of the possibility of dealing w/ a MK.

So to me atleast either the Imprevious to Energy ability either has to cover armor atleast...or people need to make a Lore roll to know about it.

Though I play in a game where the GM enforces the Imp. to Energy only protects the MK nbaked body...I have to say I almost completely ignore that I have it because it never comes up...thus it is useless ability.

[TechnoGothic]

@ John...

YES, oh Goodness YES. Thank you for point out LORE ROLLS.
Not just a Lore Magic roll either. That will just get you basic stuff about magic in general.
Juicers Uprising introduced a new Lore skill called Lore : Juicers. Gives you History on Juicers, the ability to tell different juicers apart. Their needs to be a New Lore skill introduced about Magic-Users that allows you to Tell based how how they behave or work their magics that lets you tell which Magic OCC someone is. Lore : Wizards/Mystics. A Lore skill like this is how someone might Spot a MK in combat.

The CS grunt in my example would not know that Mage was a Mystic Knight. Never. Its just a stinking Mage to him. Heck he would not even have Lore Magic usually, to know Mages could become Impervious to Energy in the first place. Its a none-issue.

Not Everyone knows of the Impervious to Energy ability. That is the beauty of the Mystic Knights. Its a hidden power.
Mystic Knights are better Known for the Energy Manipulation powers in General. That is why they are feared. They can recharge Eclips with PPE, Steal & redirect PPE from other mages as they cast spells. Fire Inexpensive Energy Bolts from their Hands...Imperv.Energy is simply a Backup power like the CK Cyber-armor.

[csbioborg]

Any vetran CS grunt is going to be aware of mystic knights
who knows what they cover in basic training
presumably they go over simply tactics and different enemy types so maybe even a fresh recruit
The mystic knights are infamous
there powers are going to be well known just like everyone knows that a cyberknight has a psi sword
that should not require a lore roll

[jaymz]

So if everyone is house ruling this where do we stop? If a MK is in TW power armor or some heavier suite is that still covered by the immunity? Since theres NO stated range on the ability whats the house rule concensus especialy considering we see a good example of their energy manipulation extending to around a 50 foot range? Should his aura apply to that range as you can use the same arguments in this thread to justify it.

I like how the Madhaven author stated this clearly on the forum and didnt bother to do it in the actual book except for a small part of a monster writeup and the info is no where else except in that small part.

Im still arguing that the RAW is it effects themselves, but I am a supporter of a small field around them that does this to protect them. Also I really find the fact that in everyones examples its a cherry picked and entirely unrealistic of combat scenarios. What about the MDC creature Mystic Knights? partcularly the ones that have more then 100 natural MDC or how about if they have force fields?

Also to the guy that was crunching numbers about exp vrs money. Theres plenty of spells that do basicaly the same thing in reguards to avoid repair bills. you may wanna factor those in.

Another thing, MK use magic and im not seeing them spellcasting in any example. Its always Shoot with a Gun or charge in and melee. Never setting up defensive spells or debilitating spells. I mean come on what melee mage wouldnt hit another one with some spell like Blind as soon as possible or carpet of adhesion, or magic net.

*Edit* its not hard to make TW armor or get it made that applies to impervious to energy to any armor, or vehicle. Food for thought.

I always took ItE, both the MK ability and hte spell to be a form fitting aura ala Armour of Ithan that covered at least anything the spellcaster, or MK, was wearing. This precludes Power arour as you don;t really "wear" power armour you sit inside of it in many cases and in others it is just to big to be considered form fitting. NOw ther are SOME that youcould argue is basically body armour with an exoskeleton built in (Terrain Hopper being ht emost wellknwong one) but typically most power armour are not considred form fitting in anyway shapw or form. BOdy Armours are by thier very nature.

[TechnoGothic]

Any vetran CS grunt is going to be aware of mystic knights who knows what they cover in basic training presumably they go over simply tactics and different enemy types so maybe even a fresh recruit.
The mystic knights are infamous there powers are going to be well known just like everyone knows that a cyberknight has a psi sword that should not require a lore roll

CS Grunts or Vets should never have Lore Magic period. That would stuff the CS higher ups would keep from people. Because it is Information about Magic, and Information is Power.

The CS higher up would be wondering by such-a-such is Learning about Forbidden Magic subjects in the first place. He would likely get himself sent into combat or killed for noising into the occult. Its Magic, just Kill it.

Mystic Knights are Infamous alright. Not for the Powers and Abilities to Everyone. Everyone Knows they are Mystics with Fighting Training and are Evil B@stards. That is their Rep. I just Reread the OCC again. It never mentions people know them for anything besides as Great Warrior Mystics. Thats it. Period.

As for Cyber-Knight. Yeah It even says in the OCC they are Well Know as Cyber-Knights, and Known for the Psi-Sword power because they are one of the RARE few who possess the powerful weapon.

*Edit* its not hard to make TW armor or get it made that applies to impervious to energy to any armor, or vehicle. Food for thought.

Exactly. This is Why TW Armors are for. Put Invulnerable to Energy on it. Your Done. Your Armor is protected from energy. TW Armors can have 3 or so Spells placed on them Permanently. Impervious to Energy is a No-brainer for a MK.

[Display-Name-Alpha]

I would say himself, his armor, and his gear. and that is it.
Using The Warbirds in Madhaven (pg 107) to back this stance.

Considering I wrote the warbirds and the Knights of the White Rose, I would agree with this. This is how it was intended.

Knights of the White Rose, my favorite class to play outside of Grackle Tooth Gunfighter. I've got an Orc Knight of the White Rose who is kind of "rogue" at the moment, only in the fact he hasn't reported back after completing his mission thus far. he still owns face and is gonna return a glorious hero with tales to tell.

[jaymz]

CS Grunts or Vets should never have Lore Magic period. That would stuff the CS higher ups would keep from people. Because it is Information about Magic, and Information is Power.

So you don't think the CS would train their troops about the primary enemies they face in the way of magic users?

I find that insulting. The CS cointrols information nad disseminates inforamtion that furthers thier cause. Basic magic knowledge woudl be part of indoctrination. Mystic knight being infamous and well known would be seen as an even greater threat than a typical magic user and thus be included in anythign information wise thatth e troops are taught. To think teh CS would not teach its troops these thigns is laughable.

If theydidnt teach such thigns to thier army then guess what Tolkeen woudlhave won because the troops woudl have had no clue whatoever how to deal with magic. They do however because through SoT and other books they say the CS knowns much about magic and uses what it knowns to fight magic. YOu can;t do that if you dont teach that information to your troops.

[csbioborg]

they sent what a million men to tolkeen
somehow I think those troops may have learned a thing or two about how to fight magic in the 4 years they were there

[TechnoGothic]

CS Grunts or Vets should never have Lore Magic period. That would stuff the CS higher ups would keep from people. Because it is Information about Magic, and Information is Power.

So you don't think the CS would train their troops about the primary enemies they face in the way of magic users?

I find that insulting. The CS cointrols information nad disseminates inforamtion that furthers thier cause. Basic magic knowledge woudl be part of indoctrination. Mystic knight being infamous and well known would be seen as an even greater threat than a typical magic user and thus be included in anythign information wise thatth e troops are taught. To think teh CS would not teach its troops these thigns is laughable.

If theydidnt teach such thigns to thier army then guess what Tolkeen woudlhave won because the troops woudl have had no clue whatoever how to deal with magic. They do however because through SoT and other books they say the CS knowns much about magic and uses what it knowns to fight magic. YOu can;t do that if you dont teach that information to your troops.

If the CS Taught Lore Magic to Everyone in the Military it would be included in their OCC Skills. Not Related Skill List. As it is, Its an Optional Skill for a CS member to learn. Since it is not taught to Everyone, or to Special Force, or to Commando as OCC Skills. It must be a Top Secret information to have access to or considered danagerous information in general. I Could see Officers have the Option to Learn it. Not a Lowly Grunt Veteren though.

Most Grunts would know the ultra-basic. Mages are Bad, Magic is Bad. Magic does Weird stuff, some say they shoot fire from their Eyes, others say they shoot lightning from the butts. A few said they saw a mage disappear from sight somehow...

Look at the CS basic OCC skills for what they consider Important skills. Never assume CS the CS has skills they would consider dangerous knowledge. It might influence them into learning magic...If they actually Understood it. Which is what the Lore Magic skill does for you. You understand Magic itself, how it works, why it works. Knowledge about different types of magic. It just does not give you the ability to use it. If CS grunts understood magic completely as the skill says it does. They would not fear it anymore. They would know magic is not Evil in itself. Just like technology.

The CS Grunt's experience in magic would be like watching Harry Potter, then expecting it to work that way in Rifts. They dont understand the mechanics of Magic itself. They could not spot the Shifter in the crowd of mages. They dont need to. Its a Mage, kill it.

[TechnoGothic]

they sent what a million men to tolkeen
somehow I think those troops may have learned a thing or two about how to fight magic in the 4 years they were there

Yeah.
If it is not wearing CS Armor Kill it.

[jaymz]

CS Grunts or Vets should never have Lore Magic period. That would stuff the CS higher ups would keep from people. Because it is Information about Magic, and Information is Power.

So you don't think the CS would train their troops about the primary enemies they face in the way of magic users?

I find that insulting. The CS cointrols information nad disseminates inforamtion that furthers thier cause. Basic magic knowledge woudl be part of indoctrination. Mystic knight being infamous and well known would be seen as an even greater threat than a typical magic user and thus be included in anythign information wise thatth e troops are taught. To think teh CS would not teach its troops these thigns is laughable.

If theydidnt teach such thigns to thier army then guess what Tolkeen woudlhave won because the troops woudl have had no clue whatoever how to deal with magic. They do however because through SoT and other books they say the CS knowns much about magic and uses what it knowns to fight magic. YOu can;t do that if you dont teach that information to your troops.

If the CS Taught Lore Magic to Everyone in the Military it would be included in their OCC Skills. Not Related Skill List. As it is, Its an Optional Skill for a CS member to learn. Since it is not taught to Everyone, or to Special Force, or to Commando as OCC Skills. It must be a Top Secret information to have access to or considered danagerous information in general. I Could see Officers have the Option to Learn it. Not a Lowly Grunt Veteren though.

Most Grunts would know the ultra-basic. Mages are Bad, Magic is Bad. Magic does Weird stuff, some say they shoot fire from their Eyes, others say they shoot lightning from the butts. A few said they saw a mage disappear from sight somehow...

Look at the CS basic OCC skills for what they consider Important skills. Never assume CS the CS has skills they would consider dangerous knowledge. It might influence them into learning magic...If they actually Understood it. Which is what the Lore Magic skill does for you. You understand Magic itself, how it works, why it works. Knowledge about different types of magic. It just does not give you the ability to use it. If CS grunts understood magic completely as the skill says it does. They would not fear it anymore. They would know magic is not Evil in itself. Just like technology.

The CS Grunt's experience in magic would be like watching Harry Potter, then expecting it to work that way in Rifts. They dont understand the mechanics of Magic itself. They could not spot the Shifter in the crowd of mages. They dont need to. Its a Mage, kill it.

SoT disagrees with you.

[johnkretzer]

I don't think a common CS grunt would have Lore:Magic....sorry but they wouldn't. Even those fighting on the front at Tolkeen. It would go like this.

'Hey look that one did get hurt by my laser rifle. Sarge"

Sargwe look and throw a frag grenade or orde a SAMAs rail gun strafe or etc.

"Yeah that some times happens with these magic types."

The fact that with the spell anybody can duplicated would probably mean it is not neccessarily known by the rank and file.

Sure CS rangers...Special Forces elite would have this infomation. It really is all about need to know.

[csbioborg]

there are two ways to know something
the PC learns it during play
or he purchases a skill
in the case of a CS trooper he does not get lore off the bat
so he knows what his experience has given him but has no formal training
however it is availble as a skill
the likely scenario if the CS resembles anything like a modern military
they have one guy per platoon or squad sent to CS anti magic/monster school
this is what a ward looks like don't touch it
this is what a potion looks like don't drink it
this is a dragon range of powers
he then is the expert ikely getting a lore in both magic and monsters/demons after going to some b school
the modern day analogy
the Infantry "OCC" does not get arabic as a skill
however some guys in the unit will be taught some arabic formally
he won't know arabic like the translator "OCC" but he will know enough to get by

[jaymz]

I don't think a common CS grunt would have Lore:Magic....sorry but they wouldn't. Even those fighting on the front at Tolkeen. It would go like this.

'Hey look that one did get hurt by my laser rifle. Sarge"

Sargwe look and throw a frag grenade or orde a SAMAs rail gun strafe or etc.

"Yeah that some times happens with these magic types."

The fact that with the spell anybody can duplicated would probably mean it is not neccessarily known by the rank and file.

Sure CS rangers...Special Forces elite would have this infomation. It really is all about need to know.

Regardles of who gets the info you can bet your bottom dolar at least one person in any patrol will have that knowledge and pass it along to others in the unit. ESPECIALLY the units operating outside of the well defended areas of the CS.

Leaving the ability as physical body only STILL nerf the class IMO since the first tiem they see his armour blasted away and he takes no damage the heavy gunner in the unit who likely has a rail gunis gonna open up on him and watch him die at least bleed. So much for being a big bad ass ability. Make it to his armour as well and now the heavier gunner has to pay attention to the mage instead of hte PA he WAS going to take on.

[The Beast]

So if everyone is house ruling this where do we stop? If a MK is in TW power armor or some heavier suite is that still covered by the immunity? Since theres NO stated range on the ability whats the house rule concensus especialy considering we see a good example of their energy manipulation extending to around a 50 foot range? Should his aura apply to that range as you can use the same arguments in this thread to justify it.

Well if you go back to my post you'll find a reasonable place to stop.

[Damian Magecraft]

So if everyone is house ruling this where do we stop? If a MK is in TW power armor or some heavier suite is that still covered by the immunity? Since theres NO stated range on the ability whats the house rule concensus especialy considering we see a good example of their energy manipulation extending to around a 50 foot range? Should his aura apply to that range as you can use the same arguments in this thread to justify it.

I like how the Madhaven author stated this clearly on the forum and didnt bother to do it in the actual book except for a small part of a monster writeup and the info is no where else except in that small part.

Im still arguing that the RAW is it effects themselves, but I am a supporter of a small field around them that does this to protect them. Also I really find the fact that in everyones examples its a cherry picked and entirely unrealistic of combat scenarios. What about the MDC creature Mystic Knights? partcularly the ones that have more then 100 natural MDC or how about if they have force fields?

Also to the guy that was crunching numbers about exp vrs money. Theres plenty of spells that do basicaly the same thing in reguards to avoid repair bills. you may wanna factor those in.

Another thing, MK use magic and im not seeing them spellcasting in any example. Its always Shoot with a Gun or charge in and melee. Never setting up defensive spells or debilitating spells. I mean come on what melee mage wouldnt hit another one with some spell like Blind as soon as possible or carpet of adhesion, or magic net.

*Edit* its not hard to make TW armor or get it made that applies to impervious to energy to any armor, or vehicle. Food for thought.

I always took ItE, both the MK ability and hte spell to be a form fitting aura ala Armour of Ithan that covered at least anything the spellcaster, or MK, was wearing. This precludes Power arour as you don;t really "wear" power armour you sit inside of it in many cases and in others it is just to big to be considered form fitting. NOw ther are SOME that youcould argue is basically body armour with an exoskeleton built in (Terrain Hopper being ht emost wellknwong one) but typically most power armour are not considred form fitting in anyway shapw or form. BOdy Armours are by thier very nature.

Sorry I was all over the place in that post, what I get for typing in a rush.

But still I think should follow along a Bursters "fire protection" aura type of thing. Close field to the body. I think it was origenaly done as a back up like cyber armor as explained its just more useful to have aura. Same reason I know GMs who adjust cyber-armor to have like a 19 AR or just rule you gotta go through the cyber-armor and ignore AR rules. It just makes things easier and more useful. I can see this as im a fan of more action rpg type of combat instead of the rules bogged RAW combat system. I like combat to flow better, and players have more fun.

Though to play the Arbiter here, why cant the ImpEnergy start as themselves only at first level and its range extend as they increase in power/experince levels? Like at lvl 3 it will include armor, lvl 6 small field arround the knight so armor, equipment are protected. Lvl 9 field is large enough to protect a small/light mount or vehicle like a cycle and or protect 1 other player in extremly close proximity. ? Something along these lines.

Dear God no...
You think the threads on how "overpowered" MKs are bad now...
Posters would be gettingbanned left and right over something like that.
Having it cover the MK, his armor, and gear carried is not that big a deal.
If Thats too much then lose the gear issue.
Make it identical to bursters Impervious to fire/heat power.
Covers the MK and what he is wearing.

Personally it will always be at least the MK and his armor seeing as the burster set the precedent with its own Impervious to ______ power. I have always seen it played that any gear the burster carried (directly touching the char) was protected, but mounts and the like were not. So if its good enough for the Pyro why is it too good for the Mage?