Advantages of being Human?

[Svartalf]

Quite a few OCCs are actually not available to DB and such races. (few of those can take MOM or juicer augmentation for instance, and only humans can become psi slingers), also, quite a lot of the equipment is tuned to human morphology... try getting a grackle tooth to pilot a glitterboy...

[keir451]

@svartalf & King Harrold; You guys just made my day!!! I love the bonuses taht KH gives humans, it cna more than make up for the deficit that they have vs the supernatural (esp. if played right).
Svartalf is right too, many OCC's are effectively "human restricted" becasue of the design of our equipment. A Wolfen (for example) would need to pay big bucks to have any standard PA suit modified to fit his legs, and while there are other 'humaniform' races out there (Elves & the like) not all of then can handle the variuos augmentations (MOM, Juicers, etc.) w/out some form of modification to the system or worse effects than what humans suffer.
Humans are also incredibly prolific in our breeding abilities and we can generally adapt to most enviroments/conditions or adapt them to us.
"Watch out!! The Homecoming Queen's got a gun!!!"

[ShadowLogan]

Svartalf is right too, many OCC's are effectively "human restricted" becasue of the design of our equipment. A Wolfen (for example) would need to pay big bucks to have any standard PA suit modified to fit his legs, and while there are other 'humaniform' races out there (Elves & the like) not all of then can handle the variuos augmentations (MOM, Juicers, etc.) w/out some form of modification to the system or worse effects than what humans suffer.
Humans are also incredibly prolific in our breeding abilities and we can generally adapt to most enviroments/conditions or adapt them to us.
"Watch out!! The Homecoming Queen's got a gun!!!"

On breeding, aren't there human mutants that would outbreed the non-mutants if given enough time (Sea Titians, Amazons, Psi-Stalkers, etc) because they have a natural edge in the environment?

On the issue of technology. I have to disagree to a certain extent as technology is not unique to humans. Some races (like the Vernulians in WB1) are said to have equivalent tech adapted to their odd bodies. Few races have defined examples of tech adapted to unique anatomies (Kreeghor in PW, Dolphin/Whales have access).

[Athos]

Unless you are playing a CS game, I cannot think of any advantage to being human and there are quite a few more races out there that are more interesting and certainly more powerful.

Humans are like ants, they come at you with perseverance (sp?) and numbers. Not exactly heroic stuff in the world of Rifts Earth, where you can play a dragon hatchling in the core rules.

I am surprised that there are not leadership rules that would make humans more powerful leaders of other humans. To me this is mankind's power... one charismatic individual gets up and the rest follow, for good or ill. Maybe noone has thought about a leadership ability, but that is what I would add if it were up to me, give the humans numbers and morale, and let them overwhelm their enemies.

[Svartalf]

I knew somebody would bring up those two. Juicers die in five or less years, not exactly a good example character and frankly you don't get much for doing it. Most races would loath the entire process, it seems only humans are dumb enough to do it. M.O.M augmentation is just plain freaky and i doubt many species would even try it, you get a few bonuses and get to slowly go insane, whoo... My point wasn't directed at creatures who are mega damage tanks like grackle tooth and the like. But that said any of them could pilot a robot, tank, military vehicle and probably even a jet fighter. Power armor isn't "Quite a lot" of equipment, only a small percentage. And i bet a competent operator could make it fit for a few million credit budget.

Quite a few OCCs are actually not available to DB and such races. (few of those can take MOM or juicer augmentation for instance, and only humans can become psi slingers), also, quite a lot of the equipment is tuned to human morphology... try getting a grackle tooth to pilot a glitterboy...

Yeah and? Unless the campaign is spanned to play over more time than the juicer's got left, the fact that the char didn't live long after it ended doesn't mean anything... if the character doesn't do heroics tougher than he can handle and get himself KIA during the game itself in the first place... same thing for MOM, you have to want to play a crazy guy, and you can play one that's literally so, and much better than your basic human.

and you ever been in a tank? You know they tend to choose the runts of the military for tank crews? Those things are pretty tight now, and they aren't going to be made roomy in RIFTS... same thing with robots, most of them (like the CS, German, or Japan stuff) are going to be made specifically for humans, and not suitable for anybody bigger. More ordinary vehicles will be more adaptable.

But you want to know what's good with playing a human? Unless you're on the wrong planets in Phase world, or adventuring in Amazonia or the Republic of Achilles, odds are you're going to be in a human dominated society where everything is done mainly by and for humans and your DB or whatever will be the outsider, expect to be mistrusted and regularly ripped off, if not actually roughed up or attacked with intent to kill.

[Killer Cyborg]

What is the advantage of being human?

That depends on the context of the question.
Are you asking from an in-game or out-of-game perspective?

Of course one might say, "But humans can learn to be anything so it makes up for it." well, no. Humans can learn to be generic classes such as ley line walkers, shifters, techno-wizards and so on, but there is no inherent advantage to being anything as a human.

Those generic classes are things that not all races can be.
Not every race can wield magic.
Not every race can have psionic powers.
Not every race can have the variety of skills that we can.
Not every race can have super powers.
But there's very, very little that humans can't do, on a species level.

Choose any class that a human can be and you can easily find a D-bee of some kind that can be a far better one.

Are you asking how humans stack up against any individual other race, or asking how humans stack up against every other race combined?
Because that comment makes it sound more like the second case.
In which case, I'd have to wonder why you think that humans should be able to do stuff that no other race anywhere can do.

Humans get a natural bonus of +1 to strike, but only with distance weapons.

So... we're 3.x Edition D&D Halflings?

[csbioborg]

there are none but thats the point this is a game abut human survival againat all odds
humanity is beset on all sides by alien invaders
mutation and heresy abound amongst its population
only those willing to fight for survival against implaceable enmies hold the line
if you want to play a god or Splugerth that's fine but I don't find it very fun

[Jay05]

Since this is all oppinion based anyway, mine is simply this. Advantages to playing humans? In a setting such as Rifts,there are none. Without falible tech a norm human is simple food and or fodder. I'd rather not play a norm human. And no I do not consider mages or psychics normal humans. And I disagree that the whole point of the game is human survival. If it were, DB classes wouldn't be available for play. They would all be listed as npcs. I've said this on other threads, Why would I want to play a normal human. That's real life. I'd rather play a mage, psychic,Juicer, crazy, dragon, alien, demi-god, hell anything than a human. But then again, I'm not one of those human supremacist fans who play DBs as monsters or victims.

[Killer Cyborg]

Since this is all oppinion based anyway, mine is simply this. Advantages to playing humans? In a setting such as Rifts,there are none. Without falible tech a norm human is simple food and or fodder. I'd rather not play a norm human. And no I do not consider mages or psychics normal humans. And I disagree that the whole point of the game is human survival. If it were, DB classes wouldn't be available for play. They would all be listed as npcs. I've said this on other threads, Why would I want to play a normal human. That's real life. I'd rather play a mage, psychic,Juicer, crazy, dragon, alien, demi-god, hell anything than a human. But then again, I'm not one of those human supremacist fans who play DBs as monsters or victims.

Humans can be mages, psychics, juicers, and crazies, so it's not an either/or situation.

[Jay05]

Yes I am aware humans can be psychics and mages. As I stated, I don't consider them "normal" humans. I was refering more toward the adventurer classes.

[Balabanto]

In my game humans get to roll 16 times and place the best eight where they want.

Everything else gets to roll twice and take the best of the two. About fifty percent of the characters are human. Guess what. This works.

[Bood Samel]

As mentioned before the main advantage of playing a human is a cultural advantage. A team of mostly D-Bees could still use a human buddy to vouch for their content of character.

[Crucible]

Plenty of advantages in that many players relate to humans a little bit more...

[Killer Cyborg]

What is the advantage of being human?

That depends on the context of the question.
Are you asking from an in-game or out-of-game perspective?

This is a pointless question... yeesh.

Apparently so, if you don't understand the significance.

Of course one might say, "But humans can learn to be anything so it makes up for it." well, no. Humans can learn to be generic classes such as ley line walkers, shifters, techno-wizards and so on, but there is no inherent advantage to being anything as a human.

Those generic classes are things that not all races can be.
Not every race can wield magic.
Not every race can have psionic powers.
Not every race can have the variety of skills that we can.
Not every race can have super powers.
But there's very, very little that humans can't do, on a species level.

Actually, no. You make it sound like humans can "Do everything" when in fact they can do ONE thing. They can be one character class, that's it. and in that one character class one can always find some other creature who can do it better than a human. You completely ignore this fact.

Except for when I specifically mention, in the part that you quoted and are responding to, that this is on a species level.

As for humans being able to be "one character class, that's it," who are you comparing them to? What races do you generally play that DO get to do everything, to be every character class, on a character level?


One can always find some other creature who can do it better?
So? You'll also find some creatures that can't do it at all.
Humans are a jack-of-all-trades species, and that's one of our strengths.
You know, on a species level.

Choose any class that a human can be and you can easily find a D-bee of some kind that can be a far better one.

Are you asking how humans stack up against any individual other race, or asking how humans stack up against every other race combined?
Because that comment makes it sound more like the second case.
In which case, I'd have to wonder why you think that humans should be able to do stuff that no other race anywhere can do.

You are ignoring my entire point in an attempt to be combative.

Not at all. I don't know what your point IS, because you can't seem to communicate it clearly.
And when I get combative, I tend to be a lot more direct than you seem to anticipate.

In this case, I tried to help answer your question.

I never said they should "do stuff that other races cannot do" i said that their should be something about the human race that is unique.

Okay, I hear you. You didn't say what I stated you said, only something identical in meaning.
Gotcha.

Your attempt to dismiss my post as pointless or the work of a highly dubious nature is duly noted.

When I dismiss a post as pointless, you'll know it.
Because I'll come out and say it.
Again, I'm pretty straightforward.

Humans get a natural bonus of +1 to strike, but only with distance weapons.

So... we're 3.x Edition D&D Halflings?

Now you are just being insulting. I play Rifts, perhaps you have heard of it? I haven't touched any game of the kind you mention in 10 years. [/quote]

I play Rifts too, actually.
Which is why I'm curious why you would need to port over that old rule.
It works fine for halflings in D&D, but I don't see any real basis for applying it to humans in Rifts.

I think this will be the last time i reply to any of your posts.

If this is the standard quality of your responses, then I can only hope that this is indeed the last time.

[The Baron of chaos]

Well human in 90% of games are the base brick around the world/setting is build. Sometimes they are in background and main character are never meant to be human but super-human(like in Exalted) but still they are the base from where the game start.
So is generally normal tha thumans do not seem to have any particular advantage nor any particular disadvantage.
The last point is, IMHO, the pivotal one: most other races and species do indeed have many racial advantage (due from being from very dangerous and xxxtty worlds/environment) but also some serious racial or cultural disadvantage as well. One example come to my mind after reading Frankenfan manga(suggest to read is funny and interesting but is kinda for adult for the extreme gore and body horror). Insectoids do not have womb or placent nor they lay egg like bird. They lay eggs that become grubworms that develope in pupa and then in the adult insect. This seem cool compared tot he extreme fatigue and labor a pregnacy take for mammalian. But had it SERIOUS drawback. Grubworms are really REALLY frail, and exposed to dangers of any sort.
This to say that not having any particular disadvantage and being quite suited for our world environment is something to not pass over so lightly.
Another common advantage we go toward other species, at least in fiction, is that we tend to develope and evolve QUITE fast. If one see the other species, we can see that, yes, they are superior to us in many things, but also that they are way older than our species and had evolved to such level very slowly, without great cultural or biological changes.
Human species is really young and still managed to do a LOT in a relatively short time(from the begin of human history in 600 BC we have 320 generations or 4 generations for century as average). This si something that baffle and worry most of other non human species.
A third advantage is that for the most part of fictional universes, seem that our boyd and DNA are the EASIEST to manipulate and empower. Some species are born with the naturla abilities but cannot be empowered all that much(banal exmaple healing factor will seriously hinder any chance to get bionic enhancement), we on other hand sometims got just the proble to choose how get empowered(hmm super drugs, Genetic alterations, cybernetics, symbionts, Tattoos, Magic, Possession, Bionics, o just plain old good crazy training with "eye of the tiger" as background music) Sure other species can in some filed best us, but we are really the jack of all trades of empowerment, THERE IS NO FROM OF ENHANCEMENT/ALTERATION THAT IS FORBIDDEN TO HUMANS!! We are also extremely prone to mutation in some CRAZY way(see Madhaven or Australia if you don't believe me, and Psy-stalker are mutant HUMAN species)
(Sometimes other speices are suspiciously based on human DNA by the way.)
And finally we got our capacity to learn and develope new technologies. We don't have many racial advantage because we don't feel to adpat all that much to our environment. Is our environment that HAD to adapt to us(albeit this phylosophy had lead us to so much self inflicted pain that one wonder if won't be better just learn to grow gills and wings instead). We never grow wings, we built them so to fly!!
(infact one of the point of RIfts earth is how Technology can challenge either Natural and Supernatural advantage and powers, often at the same level and sometimes is even superior!!)

[Incriptus]

I wonder would you be happy if there were a string of D-bee's who were weaker, slower and stupider than humans? Sure people wouldn't play them but atleast you could tell your human players "hey atleast you aren't a suck-larian"

[Jay05]

Since this is all oppinion based anyway, mine is simply this. Advantages to playing humans? In a setting such as Rifts,there are none. Without falible tech a norm human is simple food and or fodder. I'd rather not play a norm human. And no I do not consider mages or psychics normal humans. And I disagree that the whole point of the game is human survival. If it were, DB classes wouldn't be available for play. They would all be listed as npcs. I've said this on other threads, Why would I want to play a normal human. That's real life. I'd rather play a mage, psychic,Juicer, crazy, dragon, alien, demi-god, hell anything than a human. But then again, I'm not one of those human supremacist fans who play DBs as monsters or victims.

So, by that logic, a borg, juicer, crazy, someone in power armor, etc are not normal humans either. Yet, all are perfectly viable and in the core rules, all are assumed to be "human".

I think Shadowrun put it best when describing the advantage of being human. Basically, it boils down to humans are the old kids on the block and have been around. Almost everyone recognizes that Earth is a human world and has been for untold centuries. Communities are mostly human, the "authorities" (CS and major companies) tend to be human-centric and the general level of acceptance is higher for humans than other races. Bigotry may not go so far as the CS or NGR, but can include a merchant raising prices or even refusing service to non-humans. Many communities, while not shooting d-bees on sight, will not allow them within city limits. Also, slavers and conscriptors tend to target d-bees over humans since many, many people don't see d-bees as "real" people and thus the chance of reprisal for the crimes is lowered significantly.

I hope you'll agree that there is a big difference in being human (vegabond, wilderness scout etc) and being Super Human (Mages, Psychics, Juicers, Crazies etc) And no I don't include power armor pilots or borgs in that category in this instance. Tech is fallible,(as I stated in my original post) even in Rifts earth, I mean even if you consider the seriously powerful Power armors and borgs, a squad of them with no aforementioned (superhumans) or DBs, to counter the demons, monsters, or vampires(for some reason I get the impression it's become assumed that people are automatically prepared to fight vamps I disagree.) Then the armor pilots, borgs, even robot pilots become... Tinned meat, like spam. And while yes it is easier to opperate in larger communities especially in North America being human, if it comes down to that, I'd still rather play a master psychic. Little to no prejudice against them, and still has a big advantage against the hordes over most adventurer classes which is my point. Even if I'd have to register my character as being psychic.

[Balabanto]

The real issue is some people won't play humans if anything else is available. And because nonhumans in Rifts are ridiculously mighty RAW, it looks like they're powergaming all the time.

[Hystrix]

If the only reason you DON'T want to play a human is because they arn't MDC or don't have bonuses up the wazoo, then you need to pack up your dice and go home. There are lots of reasons to play a human besides game mechanics.

1. Playing what you know. I'm pretty sure no one on the boards is really a D-Bee, or supernatural being. A good way to start in Rifts is to play something firmiliar, then move on to the more exotic.

2. Playing a survivalist. Heck, Rifts is all anbout those stuggling to survive. Yes, you can play a D-bee or monster the same way, but humans are the ones who were beat back into the stone age.

3. Playing from the ground up. Sometimes it's ok to start at the bottom and work your way back up. It's nice to earn your way to being a powerful PC. I'm not knocking high powered campagning, but sometimes it's more rewarding to start small.

4. How about because you WANT to play a human. I think that's as good a reason as any.

[keir451]

Svartalf is right too, many OCC's are effectively "human restricted" becasue of the design of our equipment. A Wolfen (for example) would need to pay big bucks to have any standard PA suit modified to fit his legs, and while there are other 'humaniform' races out there (Elves & the like) not all of then can handle the various augmentations (MOM, Juicers, etc.) w/out some form of modification to the system or worse effects than what humans suffer.
Humans are also incredibly prolific in our breeding abilities and we can generally adapt to most enviroments/conditions or adapt them to us.
"Watch out!! The Homecoming Queen's got a gun!!!"

On breeding, aren't there human mutants that would outbreed the non-mutants if given enough time (Sea Titians, Amazons, Psi-Stalkers, etc) because they have a natural edge in the environment?

On the issue of technology. I have to disagree to a certain extent as technology is not unique to humans. Some races (like the Vernulians in WB1) are said to have equivalent tech adapted to their odd bodies. Few races have defined examples of tech adapted to unique anatomies (Kreeghor in PW, Dolphin/Whales have access).

True Sea Titans and Amazons could eventually become the new "standard human", o'course that's presupposing the CS doesn't do away w/ them first.
Technology (while not unique to humans) is, in Rifts, their great equalizer and, as much of the baseline tech in Rifts was built for & by humans, beings that are not at least humaniform will have trouble using it and the specialized modifications needed to suit their forms can be prohibitive.
While some may consider the human technology "fallable", consider that these humans have found ways to counter/defeat the special abilities found in Mages and Psychics and that "fallable technology" is, more often than not, equal or even superior to the monsters it is used against.

[Hystrix]

Svartalf is right too, many OCC's are effectively "human restricted" becasue of the design of our equipment. A Wolfen (for example) would need to pay big bucks to have any standard PA suit modified to fit his legs, and while there are other 'humaniform' races out there (Elves & the like) not all of then can handle the various augmentations (MOM, Juicers, etc.) w/out some form of modification to the system or worse effects than what humans suffer.
Humans are also incredibly prolific in our breeding abilities and we can generally adapt to most enviroments/conditions or adapt them to us.
"Watch out!! The Homecoming Queen's got a gun!!!"

On breeding, aren't there human mutants that would outbreed the non-mutants if given enough time (Sea Titians, Amazons, Psi-Stalkers, etc) because they have a natural edge in the environment?

On the issue of technology. I have to disagree to a certain extent as technology is not unique to humans. Some races (like the Vernulians in WB1) are said to have equivalent tech adapted to their odd bodies. Few races have defined examples of tech adapted to unique anatomies (Kreeghor in PW, Dolphin/Whales have access).

True Sea Titans and Amazons could eventually become the new "standard human", o'course that's presupposing the CS doesn't do away w/ them first.
Technology (while not unique to humans) is, in Rifts, their great equalizer and, as much of the baseline tech in Rifts was built for & by humans, beings that are not at least humaniform will have trouble using it and the specialized modifications needed to suit their forms can be prohibitive.
While some may consider the human technology "fallable", consider that these humans have found ways to counter/defeat the special abilities found in Mages and Psychics and that "fallable technology" is, more often than not, equal or even superior to the monsters it is used against.

/agree.

Another point would be that magic, and psionics can be "fallable" as well (see SoT6).

[keir451]

Svartalf is right too, many OCC's are effectively "human restricted" becasue of the design of our equipment. A Wolfen (for example) would need to pay big bucks to have any standard PA suit modified to fit his legs, and while there are other 'humaniform' races out there (Elves & the like) not all of then can handle the various augmentations (MOM, Juicers, etc.) w/out some form of modification to the system or worse effects than what humans suffer.
Humans are also incredibly prolific in our breeding abilities and we can generally adapt to most enviroments/conditions or adapt them to us.
"Watch out!! The Homecoming Queen's got a gun!!!"

On breeding, aren't there human mutants that would outbreed the non-mutants if given enough time (Sea Titians, Amazons, Psi-Stalkers, etc) because they have a natural edge in the environment?

On the issue of technology. I have to disagree to a certain extent as technology is not unique to humans. Some races (like the Vernulians in WB1) are said to have equivalent tech adapted to their odd bodies. Few races have defined examples of tech adapted to unique anatomies (Kreeghor in PW, Dolphin/Whales have access).

True Sea Titans and Amazons could eventually become the new "standard human", o'course that's presupposing the CS doesn't do away w/ them first.
Technology (while not unique to humans) is, in Rifts, their great equalizer and, as much of the baseline tech in Rifts was built for & by humans, beings that are not at least humaniform will have trouble using it and the specialized modifications needed to suit their forms can be prohibitive.
While some may consider the human technology "fallable", consider that these humans have found ways to counter/defeat the special abilities found in Mages and Psychics and that "fallable technology" is, more often than not, equal or even superior to the monsters it is used against.

/agree.

Another point would be that magic, and psionics can be "fallable" as well (see SoT6).

Yep, it's always possible to 'run out of' PPE or ISP if the duration of spell/psionic usage is long enough and then one needs to rest or meditate (barring Ley Line access for mages) where as the power plants in these vehicles are good for 20 yrs and energy weapons linked to these powerplants get unlimited payloads.

[Jay05]

Since this is all oppinion based anyway, mine is simply this. Advantages to playing humans? In a setting such as Rifts,there are none. Without falible tech a norm human is simple food and or fodder. I'd rather not play a norm human. And no I do not consider mages or psychics normal humans. And I disagree that the whole point of the game is human survival. If it were, DB classes wouldn't be available for play. They would all be listed as npcs. I've said this on other threads, Why would I want to play a normal human. That's real life. I'd rather play a mage, psychic,Juicer, crazy, dragon, alien, demi-god, hell anything than a human. But then again, I'm not one of those human supremacist fans who play DBs as monsters or victims.

So, by that logic, a borg, juicer, crazy, someone in power armor, etc are not normal humans either. Yet, all are perfectly viable and in the core rules, all are assumed to be "human".

I think Shadowrun put it best when describing the advantage of being human. Basically, it boils down to humans are the old kids on the block and have been around. Almost everyone recognizes that Earth is a human world and has been for untold centuries. Communities are mostly human, the "authorities" (CS and major companies) tend to be human-centric and the general level of acceptance is higher for humans than other races. Bigotry may not go so far as the CS or NGR, but can include a merchant raising prices or even refusing service to non-humans. Many communities, while not shooting d-bees on sight, will not allow them within city limits. Also, slavers and conscriptors tend to target d-bees over humans since many, many people don't see d-bees as "real" people and thus the chance of reprisal for the crimes is lowered significantly.

I hope you'll agree that there is a big difference in being human (vegabond, wilderness scout etc) and being Super Human (Mages, Psychics, Juicers, Crazies etc) And no I don't include power armor pilots or borgs in that category in this instance. Tech is fallible,(as I stated in my original post) even in Rifts earth, I mean even if you consider the seriously powerful Power armors and borgs, a squad of them with no aforementioned (superhumans) or DBs, to counter the demons, monsters, or vampires(for some reason I get the impression it's become assumed that people are automatically prepared to fight vamps I disagree.) Then the armor pilots, borgs, even robot pilots become... Tinned meat, like spam. And while yes it is easier to opperate in larger communities especially in North America being human, if it comes down to that, I'd still rather play a master psychic. Little to no prejudice against them, and still has a big advantage against the hordes over most adventurer classes which is my point. Even if I'd have to register my character as being psychic.

You are clearly thinking from a pure mechanics standpoint. This conversation is over.

As a matter of fact I was to a certain extent. Were you intentionally being rude?

[Jay05]

You are clearly thinking from a pure mechanics standpoint. This conversation is over.

As a matter of fact I was to a certain extent. Were you intentionally being rude?

Yeah, since you were being (by your own admission) not taking all the facts into account. I do not debate with people who are willfully ignorant.

And exactly what did I not take in to account? If a GM says to me Ok the group is opperating out of Chi-Town, so you will want to play a human." To avoid your correct statement I'd play a master psychic, since even in Coalition controlled towns, psychics are accepted. As I said in a previous post "even if he/she had to register as being one" That statement clearly addresses and acknowleges your point about db prejudice and discrimination. So, edxactly what did I not take into account, and again, what excuses your rudeness?

[Athos]

Hey Jay05

When someone is intentionally rude, it's best to not worry about it and just move on. You can't "fix" people, they are what they are. All you can do is hope some moderator sees their rudeness and pulls them aside for a little counselling on what is acceptable.

[Jay05]

Hey Jay05

When someone is intentionally rude, it's best to not worry about it and just move on. You can't "fix" people, they are what they are. All you can do is hope some moderator sees their rudeness and pulls them aside for a little counselling on what is acceptable.

Please tell me how I am being rude and how a moderator would see fit to take me aside for a chat.

You already admitted to being rude in an above post. Period. As for ignoring the RP aspect to the arguement, I merely stated how I would approch things. So yes, from a purely RP standpoint during a part of the game that is all character interplay, a human would have an advantage in a human controlled area. Really? No kidding!

[Kovoston]

Unless you are playing a CS game, I cannot think of any advantage to being human and there are quite a few more races out there that are more interesting and certainly more powerful.

Humans are like ants, they come at you with perseverance (sp?) and numbers. Not exactly heroic stuff in the world of Rifts Earth, where you can play a dragon hatchling in the core rules.

I am surprised that there are not leadership rules that would make humans more powerful leaders of other humans. To me this is mankind's power... one charismatic individual gets up and the rest follow, for good or ill. Maybe noone has thought about a leadership ability, but that is what I would add if it were up to me, give the humans numbers and morale, and let them overwhelm their enemies.

In the book Manhunter For Rifts they give humans a 4D6 for M.A. (Leadership and headstrong abilities). Must be something in the water...

Funny thing is that Humans have varying degrees of things for them in each dimension (I.e.: Palladium Fantasy and even BtS 2). I try to write in something for humans to use that others can not in my books.
G

[Jay05]

Hey Jay05

When someone is intentionally rude, it's best to not worry about it and just move on. You can't "fix" people, they are what they are. All you can do is hope some moderator sees their rudeness and pulls them aside for a little counselling on what is acceptable.

Please tell me how I am being rude and how a moderator would see fit to take me aside for a chat.

You already admitted to being rude in an above post. Period. As for ignoring the RP aspect to the arguement, I merely stated how I would approch things. So yes, from a purely RP standpoint during a part of the game that is all character interplay, a human would have an advantage in a human controlled area. Really? No kidding!

I never admitted to being rude, or is your perception of someone being rude an admission by them of such?

As for the other, you hold that humans have no advantages, from your above posts. You have all but dismissed humans as being weak and incapable. I noticed that you also conveniently did not address my points about your arguments in this regard.

The statement "This conversation is over" is rude. end of story, if you didn't intend it to be so, state that. As for your earlier arguement rergarding juicers etc I did in fact adress this, in an earlier post. They may be accepted as human, which renders them immune to db prejudice, they are in fact Super Humans thus being a cut above humans, in some cases by a large margin. And I also addressed power armor/borgs... See meat in a can if the tech fails for any reason.

[Bood Samel]

I use a table for humans that is basically a continuation/expansion of the standard psionics table, called a talents and traits table. Instead of rolling for psionics they roll on the table, at times the result of the table effects the choice of OCC (they go with an OCC with which the result is useful) or sometimes it makes no difference (people ignore their talent in real life too).

Some examples from my Talents and Traits table:
Minor Psionic: Standard

Major Psionic: Standard

Touched by Magic: Increased PPE (+1d6 to base PPE)

Touched by Magic: Minor Sense Magic Energy (allows the user to feel a vague non directional sensation when magic is in use in 25' range)

Natural Linguist: Learns all languages as native languages (if it's audible by them but not reproducible by human vocals, they can learn to understand it, but not speak it).

Jack of All Trades: Gets double the OCC related and secondary skills, but no bonuses derived from the OCC, must spend two skills to earn the OCC derived bonus for a selected skill or ANY physical skill or weapon proficiencies selected with OCC related or secondary skill selections.

Those are decent minor and well balanced perks.

[ShadowLogan]

Svartalf is right too, many OCC's are effectively "human restricted" becasue of the design of our equipment. A Wolfen (for example) would need to pay big bucks to have any standard PA suit modified to fit his legs, and while there are other 'humaniform' races out there (Elves & the like) not all of then can handle the various augmentations (MOM, Juicers, etc.) w/out some form of modification to the system or worse effects than what humans suffer.
Humans are also incredibly prolific in our breeding abilities and we can generally adapt to most enviroments/conditions or adapt them to us.
"Watch out!! The Homecoming Queen's got a gun!!!"

On breeding, aren't there human mutants that would outbreed the non-mutants if given enough time (Sea Titians, Amazons, Psi-Stalkers, etc) because they have a natural edge in the environment?

On the issue of technology. I have to disagree to a certain extent as technology is not unique to humans. Some races (like the Vernulians in WB1) are said to have equivalent tech adapted to their odd bodies. Few races have defined examples of tech adapted to unique anatomies (Kreeghor in PW, Dolphin/Whales have access).

True Sea Titans and Amazons could eventually become the new "standard human", o'course that's presupposing the CS doesn't do away w/ them first.
Technology (while not unique to humans) is, in Rifts, their great equalizer and, as much of the baseline tech in Rifts was built for & by humans, beings that are not at least humaniform will have trouble using it and the specialized modifications needed to suit their forms can be prohibitive.
While some may consider the human technology "fallable", consider that these humans have found ways to counter/defeat the special abilities found in Mages and Psychics and that "fallable technology" is, more often than not, equal or even superior to the monsters it is used against.

I'm not sure the CS would be in a position to do anything about either group until its to late given that both species are far removed from CS territory and their nation state keeps a low profile. And if the CS can come to accept human mutants such as Psi-Stalkers, Amazons and SeaTitans would be no different.

Tech vs Mystic really isn't the issue though. Other races do have high technology, and some of them have oddly shaped bodies. That means a human trying to use their tech will encounter the same difficulty the race in question encounters using their tech. So really the tech operation advantage is really nill in that regard.

I use a table for humans that is basically a continuation/expansion of the standard psionics table, called a talents and traits table. Instead of rolling for psionics they roll on the table, at times the result of the table effects the choice of OCC (they go with an OCC with which the result is useful) or sometimes it makes no difference (people ignore their talent in real life too).

Some examples from my Talents and Traits table:

Rifts Lone Star has a similiar table, along with Dead Reign and the new RT books.

[keir451]

@Shadow Logan; The CS might indeed come to accept these groups, but my initial thoughts were based around the differences in ideologies, the New Navy represents the Pre -Rifts attitudes towards learning and citizenship and the Amazons, though human, are used to using magic and a form of technowizardry.
Your point regarding humans adapting alien tech to themselves is valid. Humans would, indeed, have the same kind of difficulty.
The advantage of tech, as it were, is what gives the CS their edge. Specifically; In Rifts Earth the humans have the highest native tech level and though they are supposedly outnumbered by inhuman monsters they are prevailing and, barring another force of equal or superior power (natural or civilized) will most likely continue to do so.
In the case of Rifts Earth, human history (providing it has any similarities to real history) shows us that humans are the top line predators of the planet, are excellent at warfare (as a whole, not individually), and seem to have a knack for gizmoteering that other races apparently lack, or don't have in the same degree. Tech became the replacement for Magic (after the fall of Atlantis) and (ad mittedly IMO) seems to be doing better than magic (no dimensionally displaced continents due to magic ).

[Hystrix]

To caviot on Keir's point:

Tech is a huge advantage on Rifts Earth. If we were talking about another world/dimension were the predominant tech is a non-huminoid tech, then you have a good point. However, on Rifts Earth most tech is geared towards humans and huminoid like life forms (CS, NGR, Japan, Northern Gun..etc...). Even most ailen tech that is mentioned is aproximatly human size (Kittani comes to mind)...

Yeah, I'm gonna side with Keir451 in that tech is a huge advantage on Rifts Earth...

[keir451]

Another thought occured to me; In Rifts Earth humans have, twice now, experienced the rise and cataclysmic fall of very advanced (albeit different) civilizations and have come back from the brink.
1st was Atlantis, whose magic cataclysm drained Earth of its magic and shunted the continent of Atlantis into a dimensional pocket (later to be discovered by Splynncryth).
2nd was Chaos Earth or the pre-Rifts era, a world society based largely around technological advancements and human/genetic augmentation/alteration.
So Humans, as a species, are effectively bad@$$es. Esp. as in other regions we see similar examples of humans being thrown into hideous circumstances (cities rifted to other worlds, starships crashing on planets in other galaxies, etc.). Yet in each case humans have come back from the edge and thrived, becoming, in some cases, Galactic level Superpowers (CCW, etc.).
Advantages of being human? Simple. WE RULE!! To paraphrase a song: "We get knocked down, but we get up again. You're never gonna keep us down."

[Athos]

Another thought occured to me; In Rifts Earth humans have, twice now, experienced the rise and cataclysmic fall of very advanced (albeit different) civilizations and have come back from the brink.
1st was Atlantis, whose magic cataclysm drained Earth of its magic and shunted the continent of Atlantis into a dimensional pocket (later to be discovered by Splynncryth).

Well, I think it was the True Atlanteans that survived the first cataclysm of the fall of Atlantis, and they are far superior to "ordinary" humans if you go by their racial abilities and stats.

As for the coming of the Rifts, humanity is still in danger, they haven't made it out of the frying pan yet. The whole world is beset by evil and supernatural menaces, and the strongest "human" colonies are the xenophobic and fascist governments of the NGR and CS. When the humans of Rifts Earth overcome their enemies and settle into nice democratic governments, then they will have overcome the coming of the rifts.

[keir451]

Who says that democracy is the way to go in this case? By the standards of Rifts Earth the CS is VERY stable, their leader will be there until he dies or retires in favor of his son who will do much the same thing (barring untimely death). Historically speaking monarchies have proven to be the most stable form of gov't. Granted Kings and Queens come and go, but the institution of the monarchy still goes on. Look at Great Britain, they've been a continuing monarchy for 2,000 yrs., China was a monarchy for 10,000 yrs.
Now, I'm not trying to argue political/gov't theory, I'm just pointing out historical fact. If you were playing in MY games, however, this fact would have significant bearing.
As for the NGR, I believe they ARE an elected government and not totally xenophobic, at least not as xenophobic as the CS (one of their Generals is a Rahu-man).

[Jay05]

So, in other words you put your players imaginations in a tiny box and cut the nuts off the setting.

[Blindscout]

So, in other words you pigeon hole your players and cut the nuts off the setting.

Could not have said it better myself.

Those sort of things are fine for some campaigns (Coalition campaigns come to mind), but every single game? No thanks.

[Jay05]

Exactly right. I've been a gamer for nearly 22 years. A Palladium gamer for 19 of those, and if a GM says to me " Want to play in an all human campaign for awhile?" I'd probably say sure. But if that was all that was allowed ever, and players got penalized for playing other than normal humans, nah I'm either going to suggest alternatives to the rest of the group, or go elsewhere for my gaming. On the other hand, if the group [url]as a whole[/url] is happy with those very restrictive rulings, more power to all of you.

[GeraldClamar]

It's true that technology is a big advantage for humans in Rifts, but the main point is that humans are the underdogs of Rifts Earth. Humans have to not just survive, but they have to thrive. As far as I've seen, humans are the only creatures who will team up to defeat the common foe, as was proven in the war between the CS and Free Quebec. It's true most d-bees are powerful enough to defeat a small band of humans, maybe even an army, but will dragons work with other dragons? Not unless there were a big advantage to one or the other. And the CS has, in the past, developed "spot blindness" when it came to attacking human mages or xiticix. We're imperfect, that's true, but in the end humans will always persevere in the face of the greatest adversity.

[Kovoston]

It's true that technology is a big advantage for humans in Rifts, but the main point is that humans are the underdogs of Rifts Earth. Humans have to not just survive, but they have to thrive. As far as I've seen, humans are the only creatures who will team up to defeat the common foe, as was proven in the war between the CS and Free Quebec. It's true most d-bees are powerful enough to defeat a small band of humans, maybe even an army, but will dragons work with other dragons? Not unless there were a big advantage to one or the other. And the CS has, in the past, developed "spot blindness" when it came to attacking human mages or xiticix. We're imperfect, that's true, but in the end humans will always persevere in the face of the greatest adversity.

Very well put!

[Killer Cyborg]

basicly the only thing humans on Rifts Earth have is that Siembieda decided their the good guys & later on he decided that if a whole buncha fans lurve the CS then the CS will stop bein written as straight up baddies

You should probably read the books more thoroughly, because none of what you've said there is true.