Can Psionics heal MDC beings?

[GT]

I been looking and looking for References that Psionic can heal MDC beings. Such as Bio-Regenerate Self and Healing Touch and like Super Psionics Bio-Regeneration.

Can Psionics heal MDC beings and if so where does it say that? All I found searching this site were references to vague typical Palladium Wording that says nothing. And so far haven't found any thing. And the only thing I did find directly was changed in the Revised Conversions 1 book.

If some one can point it out to me if I missed it or some thing that might treat it as HP or some things would be appreciated.

[Shark_Force]

only thing i can think of is that there's a power that doubles the rate of natural healing. that should work for MDC beings as well as SDC beings.

[Bood Samel]

I'd say yes with stuff like healing touch and what have you.

[GT]

Thanks, but what I need is a "Concrete" book reference.

[Bood Samel]

Thanks, but what I need is a "Concrete" book reference.

You probably won't find one. The reason for this is that Rifts was originally written with the player characters being (for the most part) SDC beings. Also, psionics in general were written for SDC beings.

The closest thing I can find to a book reference on this issue are various magic spells heal a small amount of MDC or HP/SDC depending on the creature.

As for a judgment call, I'd say that psionics that heal HP/SDC heal either the combined total in MDC if the power heals both HP and SDC with one use, or it heals the HP value in MDC if the psychic has to choose between HP and SDC with each use. Let me provide a couple of examples to make this clear.

As per RMB, Bio-Regeneration heals 2D6 HP or 3D6 SDC per melee of concentration. According to my personal judgment call above, a MDC creature using this power would regenerate 2D6 MDC per melee. By contrast, Super Bio-Regeneration heals 4D6 HP and 4D6 SDC at the end of the meditation, so this power would heal 8D6 MDC for a MDC creature using this power.

I find this to be quite a reasonable judgment and it seems to fit with precedent laid down by various healing magic spells.

As a GM of rifts sense its come out this is how I call it.

[SkyeFyre]

No. Psionics that specify that they can heal x SDC or HP do not possess enough healing power to heal MD injuries. This is evidenced by the tenth level spell: Super-Healing. It specifically states that the spell applies to Mega-Damage and not to SDC and HP creatures. The fact that this distinction exists tells me that spells and psionics heal exactly what their descriptions say they heal.

With this in mind, no, psionics do not heal Mega-Damage wounds. The only exception is the one psionic power that doesn't heal a set number of points but notes that it increases the regular healing rate. While this doesn't do your nice big chunk healing it's pretty much your only option to heal using psionics.

[Blindscout]

So the female sasquatches out of D-bees of North America cannot heal themselves with the bio-regeneration (super) they get when they hit level 5?

[SkyeFyre]

No. Psionics that specify that they can heal x SDC or HP do not possess enough healing power to heal MD injuries. This is evidenced by the tenth level spell: Super-Healing. It specifically states that the spell applies to Mega-Damage and not to SDC and HP creatures. The fact that this distinction exists tells me that spells and psionics heal exactly what their descriptions say they heal.

Wrong.

Super-Healing specifically says it applies only to MD creatures. Psionics do not give this distinction in the same way. Using this as evidence of your point is not solid, especially in the way you have stated it.

With this in mind, no, psionics do not heal Mega-Damage wounds. The only exception is the one psionic power that doesn't heal a set number of points but notes that it increases the regular healing rate. While this doesn't do your nice big chunk healing it's pretty much your only option to heal using psionics.

I might add that using the wording and what is not included in descriptions of things in a system as ambiguous as the Palladium System will only lead to headaches and arguments. Use some common sense. This isn't D&D.

All you have done is say "You're wrong because I feel my common sense is better". I presented a written distinction from a book showing that it is not possible to heal mega-damage beings without at least a tenth level spell where it specifically states that it is meant for healing mega-damage creatures. I see no reason to treat psionics any differently.

Unless you can present something from a book to at least back up what you're saying, your answer is nothing but an opinion. An opinion you are allowed to have, but in the context of this thread where the OP appears to be looking for a canon answer, it is useless.

Sorry, but my "common sense" is an educated assumption based on a clear distinction outlined in a book. What's yours?

And don't associate me with D&D. I didn't insult you, no need to be mean. (just in case you think I'm honestly offended, I'm joking)

[Athos]

SkyeFyre is right, at least in this instance... I cannot find anything other than assumptions that show MDC can be healed by psionics at a rate greater than 100 SDC == 1 MDC.

Looking at the 8th level Invocation Greater Healing, for 30 PPE, you can heal EITHER 2d4x10 SDC and 6d6 hp OR 1d4 MD. That is pretty clearly an indication that MDC doesn't heal as fast as SDC or hit points. For 70 PPE, using the Invocation Super Healing, you can heal 4d6 MD. That is a lot of PPE for a little healing...

From a strictly cheese standpoint, in my game which has SDC and MDC characters, I don't think the MDC ones need more cheese and I don't intend to coddle them and give them easy healing on top of their MDC. I think that the spells clearly show that MDC heals, maybe not at 100-1, but definitely at a rate more costly than SDC.

For this game, and since I am the GM in it I get to decide (sorry GT), I am house ruling that BioRegeneration (Super) will regenerate 1d4 MD per usage, which I think is pretty generous when compared with the spell Greater Healing. If you want to make it easier for the MDC characters to heal in your game, by all means do so.

[jaymz]

By the book? No you can only heal typically what the power says you can heal.

However PB is rife with inconsistencies like MDC beings not being able to heal themselves with a self healing psionic power they posses. In other words there is absolutely no reason for an MDC being to ever take any kind of self healing psionic power or learn any self healing type spells as they are completely useless to them. Does it make sense? No but it is the way the RAW is written unfortunately. Though there are the odd spell that does heal MDC.

Now as Rhomphaia said above :

As for a judgment call, I'd say that psionics that heal HP/SDC heal either the combined total in MDC if the power heals both HP and SDC with one use, or it heals the HP value in MDC if the psychic has to choose between HP and SDC with each use. Let me provide a couple of examples to make this clear.

As per RMB, Bio-Regeneration heals 2D6 HP or 3D6 SDC per melee of concentration. According to my personal judgment call above, a MDC creature using this power would regenerate 2D6 MDC per melee. By contrast, Super Bio-Regeneration heals 4D6 HP and 4D6 SDC at the end of the meditation, so this power would heal 8D6 MDC for a MDC creature using this power.

I find this to be quite a reasonable judgment and it seems to fit with precedent laid down by various healing magic spells.

I agree this is reasonable for the most part except I would always only equate the MDC healed with the number of HP that could be healed as any spells/psionics that heal HP/SDC or MDC the MDC healed is typically a lower number than the HP/SDC healed.

[The Dark Elf]

By the book? No you can only heal typically what the power says you can heal.

However PB is rife with inconsistencies like MDC beings not being able to heal themselves with a self healing psionic power they posses. In other words there is absolutely no reason for an MDC being to ever take any kind of self healing psionic power or learn any self healing type spells as they are completely useless to them. Does it make sense? No but it is the way the RAW is written unfortunately. Though there are the odd spell that does heal MDC.

Exactly this.

[SkyeFyre]

All you have done is say "You're wrong because I feel my common sense is better". I presented a written distinction from a book showing that it is not possible to heal mega-damage beings without at least a tenth level spell where it specifically states that it is meant for healing mega-damage creatures. I see no reason to treat psionics any differently.

That is not what I said. I said that your reasoning and the example given, is faulty. Go back and re-read my post. The spell you gave an example of specifically says that the spell works only on MDC creatures and not SDC beings. Psionics do not have such wording. To use this as your reasoning is flawed. I was simply trying to point that out.

Unless you can present something from a book to at least back up what you're saying, your answer is nothing but an opinion. An opinion you are allowed to have, but in the context of this thread where the OP appears to be looking for a canon answer, it is useless.

Go back and read my first post in the thread. I already admitted this.

Sorry, but my "common sense" is an educated assumption based on a clear distinction outlined in a book. What's yours?

No, your common sense assumption is based on specific wording that is not given anywhere else. That is where it is flawed. I can accept a bevy of reasons for not allowing psionics to heal MDC creatures. Your reasoning is flawed on many levels, even taking into account the massive ambiguity of the Palladium System.

The specific line of the spell in question specifically says that it affects MDC beings only, not SDC beings. This wording is only found in spells meant specifically to affect MDC beings only. Psionics do not have this distinction in the same words.

Again, it's not your ruling I have an issue with. It's the, quite frankly, bull**** reasoning behind it. It smacks of looking for an excuse for your ruling and wanting to justify it with text in a book.

Firstly there's a better example in an 8th level spell which was brought up earlier in this thread.

Secondly I know what you said, and what you meant, I disagree with it and stated my opinion. I don't need to re-read anything. Stop assuming I'm some... no wait. If I use any sort of comparison that you have not explicitly stated you will correct me as being some idiot who doesn't read well and imply that I should attend second grade again.

Thirdly. You keep saying that my logic is flawed without actually pointing out why. All you say is that I do not have an example in the psionic category, even though in the case of both magic and technological (weapons) the books clearly make a distinction between Mega-Damage Capacity and good ol' regular SDC.

But wait! I'm an idiot because I'm bringing damage into this. No, I don't think so. I'll tell you why. They make a distinction between SDC and MDC in damaging psionic abilities. Telekinetic Punch is very clear to state that it inflicts "S.D.C./Hit Point" damage. Mind Bolt is very clear when it states what certain amounts of ISP will get you damage wise, requiring 40 ISP to do any sort of Mega-Damage.

So what do we see here?

In Magic: Descriptions clearly state if something can heal SDC or MDC as well as if something can damage SDC or MDC.
In Technology: Descriptions clearly state if something can inflict SDC or MDC. No means to heal MDC with technology as per the books.
In Psionics: Descriptions clearly state if something can inflict SDC or MDC. They state that healing abilities heal SDC/Hit Points.

So, we see a pattern here. In all cases the book clearly defines if something is capable of affecting MDC or SDC, whether it be healing or damaging. So why must you insist that my logic is flawed when your defense is "Don't assume that it's that way just because it's not written". I am sorry, but when it falls under a clear pattern I find myself reliving my days in kindergarten, figuring out what color came next in a series of squares. It's the same basic logic.

[SkyeFyre]

Funny, I could say the same thing. I don't think I could have been any clearer, and yet you were the one who so boldly came in and told me I was "Wrong, flawed", and was obviously not using common sense.

I agree that this conversation is over. You don't seem to be willing to entertain the idea that I might just have something. Whereas I have weighed the two points of view and found that my side has more to offer logically. I'm not saying you need to agree with me, but at least admit there's credit to my point of view rather than just telling me that I'm wrong, using flawed logic, and without common sense (implied).

EDIT AFTER YOUR EDIT: You haven't told me how my logic was flawed. I do appreciate your clarification however. Thank you. I will apologize if I offended you. I will be honest, I have found that the uptight, arrogant attitude has been on the rise lately on the boards and it has put me constantly on the defensive. As a result I may have read your post with a more negative tone than was originally intended, and this caused me to react in a manner which reflected that which I find myself so irritated with.

I still do not understand how my logic is flawed but to prevent any further discord I will simply acknowledge your point that the Palladium system is known to be ambiguous and does not regularly follow any set patterns. While I do feel that there is a pattern I shall end my argument here as it appears we both have our own strong points of view and any seemingly hostile intent on your part was a result of my agitated state.

[SkyeFyre]

Um, I was editing my previous post after you edited yours. Scroll up.

[GT]

So is that a yes or no?

[jaymz]

By the book? No. Only healing power that would affect an mdc being would be increased healing as the other powers specify hit points or sdc but as you can see the opinion on whether or that SHOULD be the case is much in dispute.

[jaymz]

By the book? No. Only healing power that would affect an mdc being would be increased healing as the other powers specify hit points or sdc but as you can see the opinion on whether or that SHOULD be the case is much in dispute.

This ruling on the issue should be taken with a very strong caveat.

The fundamental psionics rules have not changed for almost 30 years. All other aspects of the game from combat to magic to attribute bonuses to skills have undergone substantial revision, slowly, over this time. Psionics are the one exception to this and this does need to be considered when going "by the book".

As true as that may be RUE is the latest authority on i thus technically, even if many of us do not agree, the answer is still no.

[jaymz]

As true as that may be RUE is the latest authority on i thus technically, even if many of us do not agree, the answer is still no.

Palladium is one of the worst systems out there to make judgments on the rules as written. One must take into account a very healthy dose of common sense. So many of the rules are contradictory or just plain ambiguous.

Unfortunately there is nothing ambiguous about the fact there are no psionics that state they can or will heal a MDC being's MDC. The only power as written (and believe me I agree with you in principle about taking the rules with a grain of salt and adding common sense) that can be used on MDC beings and actually have an effect is increased healing. That is it.

[jaymz]

Unfortunately there is nothing ambiguous about the fact there are no psionics that state they can or will heal a MDC being's MDC. The only power as written (and believe me I agree with you in principle about taking the rules with a grain of salt and adding common sense) that can be used on MDC beings and actually have an effect is increased healing. That is it.

You are aware of exactly how contradictory this is, right? This post tells me that you both do take the rules with a grain of salt and apply some common sense and that you rigidly adhere to what is written.

No I myself in MY games take them with a grain of salt but by the book (which is what understood the OP was asking for) there are NO powers for psionics that heal X amount of MDC. There is no ambiguity. They are not here unless it's in invisible ink for only special people to see. NO contradiction. What we do in our games is just that, what we do in our games. What is in the book is RAW. No powers heal X MDC. That is RAW. That is not ambiguous as they do not exist.

What your post tells me is you can't tell the difference between what I said I agree with and what the books says on the matter.

I say - you are right. Common sense and a grain of salt need to be applied

I say - the book however is clear in that there are no psionic powers that heal X MDC (whether there are spells that do or not is quite irrelevant when discussing RAW) since they are simply not there.

Not sure what contradiction you are reading there as I never said I myself run the game by the RAW.

[cchopps]

On another note, I am trying to track it down, since I don't actually have the book, but apparently the Rifts GMG states that for purposes of healing powers, hit points and MDC are interchangeable and that powers/spells that specifically state different rates of healing are exceptions to this. I am trying to get confirmation of this now.

I flipped through mine and didn't see it, though it could easily be in some random spot I overlooked. Maybe it is in Psiscape?

Otherwise, only supernaturals will innate dimensional teleport will be able to use psychic powers to heal.

C. Chopps

[Saitou Hajime]

This is how i view it, Psionics heal equal to there rating in MDC as if it was SDC/Hp unless the power for some reason has a different MDC heal rate. First of this addresses correctly MDC being with Psionics, who should be able to use their abilities on themselves and people of the same race. The only time this can ever be considered over powered is when SDC base people with Psionics heal MDC beings. in the Grand rules of game balance it is a trivial point.

[jaymz]

So the female sasquatches out of D-bees of North America cannot heal themselves with the bio-regeneration (super) they get when they hit level 5?

well i would say yes. im pretty sure kev would also say yes to this

I wold agree that Kev would say yes, as would I in that scenario. Unfortunately bythe RAW she wouldn't be able too.

The OP as looking for an in book reference and there isn't any.

[RainOfSteel]

Can Psionics heal MDC beings and if so where does it say that?

Achilles Neo Human RCC, World Book 8: South America 2, see the natural abilities list, Touch of Health or Death, p.151.

[Killer Cyborg]

As a side note, I think this is about as official as we're going to get on this issue.

From this thread...
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=79147

Question: Will Psionic Bio-regeneration give the equivalent MDC healing to a psionic who's an MDC creature?
I've noticed spells that only give a tiny amount of MD healing.
Answer: For lack of any concrete ruling in the books, we'll assume the answer is yes. It may also be fair to assume that the lowest rate of healing be used, i.e. 2D6 MDC per melee for minor bio-regeneration and 4D6 MDC per minute for super bio-regeneration.

Unfortunately, it's not correct, and it's not a good assumption.
It's not safe to assume that spells/powers that inflict SDC damage will harm Mega-Damage beings, so why would it be safe to assume that spells/powers that heal SDC damage will heal Mega-Damage beings?
While possible, there's nothing to indicate that things would work that way.

[Killer Cyborg]

While possible, there's nothing to indicate that things would work that way.

There's actually quite a bit that would indicate it works that way, just not in the psionics descriptions themselves.

We're in agreement so far.

There are various RCCs that are MDC beings and have specific entries about having healing psionics. Logic would dictate that they would be able to use these on themselves.

OR it would simply indicate that they were from SDC dimensions where their powers were effective, but that these powers were rendered ineffective once they became mega-damage creatures in a mega-damage setting.

Look at Pogtals in VK.
They have an ability to shoot Energy Bolts, which inflict SDC damage.
This was a great ability back in their home dimension, where they were SDC creatures hunting SDC prey, but it's not nearly as useful in Rifts, where they're MDC creatures hunting MDC prey.
It might suck for them, but the laws of transdimensional physics don't seem to care whether or not a once-useful power is still useful when you're in another dimension with different rules.

[jaymz]

OR it would simply indicate that they were from SDC dimensions where their powers were effective, but that these powers were rendered ineffective once they became mega-damage creatures in a mega-damage setting.

Look at Pogtals in VK.
They have an ability to shoot Energy Bolts, which inflict SDC damage.
This was a great ability back in their home dimension, where they were SDC creatures hunting SDC prey, but it's not nearly as useful in Rifts, where they're MDC creatures hunting MDC prey.
It might suck for them, but the laws of transdimensional physics don't seem to care whether or not a once-useful power is still useful when you're in another dimension with different rules.

Agreed that this is the way it is by the book.

The REAL question is, is that the way it SHOULD work. Why bother having healing abilities at all if you can't use them

[jaymz]

The REAL question is, is that the way it SHOULD work. Why bother having healing abilities at all if you can't use them

Exactly.

In the end, "by the book" arguments are almost worthless. Come up with a house rule that makes sense and go with it. I'm sure Kevin would approve.

The only problem is when someone in fact asks what is it "by the book"

[Killer Cyborg]

OR it would simply indicate that they were from SDC dimensions where their powers were effective, but that these powers were rendered ineffective once they became mega-damage creatures in a mega-damage setting.

Look at Pogtals in VK.
They have an ability to shoot Energy Bolts, which inflict SDC damage.
This was a great ability back in their home dimension, where they were SDC creatures hunting SDC prey, but it's not nearly as useful in Rifts, where they're MDC creatures hunting MDC prey.
It might suck for them, but the laws of transdimensional physics don't seem to care whether or not a once-useful power is still useful when you're in another dimension with different rules.

Agreed that this is the way it is by the book.

The REAL question is, is that the way it SHOULD work. Why bother having healing abilities at all if you can't use them

Because life isn't fair.

Palladium in general isn't geared for healing as much as other games, and apparently this is deliberate.
Most MDC creatures heal on their own anyway, either through bio-regeneration or just through simple fast healing.
Meanwhile, look at how slowly SDC creatures heal (RUE 288):
2 HP and 4 SDC per day without treatment.
2 HP and 6 SDC per day for the first 2 days, with 4 HP and 6 SDC per day each day after that.

Most mega-damage beings have bio-regeneration, which means that they heal more in an hour of activity than an SDC being heals in days of bed-rest.

For MDC creatures without bio-regeneration, as per CB1 (no idea if it's been updated since), the default for MDC creatures is healing 2d6 MDC per day. Now that's not so great, but the average is 7 MDC per day, which is better than the equivalent of 6 for SDC beings without professional treatment.

I don't recall any rules for MDC beings undergoing professional care, but it would be logical to increase it proportionately (as a house rule) by the something similar, like 3d6 per day for the first 2 days, and 4d6 per day for each day after that.

In any case, why have a power that you can't use?
No real reason, but just because you have something doesn't mean it's going to be very useful.
Consider it a vestigial power in cases where it no longer provides any benefits.

[Killer Cyborg]

The only problem is when someone in fact asks what is it "by the book"

Extended edition: "Nobody knows. They wrote over 40 books and never chose to answer this question. I'm pretty sure they want us to answer it for ourselves."

Actually, we DO know- the psionic powers list how much SDC/HP they heal.
This means that the powers heal that amount of SDC/HP.

They do not list how much MDC they heal.
This means that they do not heal MDC.

[Killer Cyborg]

Don't you just love people who flout their opinions as facts?

In this case, it's clearly not a matter where opinion counts.
If a power does not list an ability, it does not have that ability.

If x does not describe the power to heal MDC, then it does not.
That's a simple fact.

Telekinesis does not describe the ability to heal MDC, therefore it does not.
Pyrokinesis does not describe the ability to heal MDC, therefore it does not.
Telepathy does not describe the ability to heal MDC, therefore it does not.
Speed Reading does not describe the ability to heal MDC, therefore it does not.
6th Sense does not describe the ability to heal MDC, therefore it does not.
Mind Block does not describe the ability to heal MDC, therefore it does not.

And if a power used to heal SDC does not describe any ability to heal MDC, then it does not.

Powers come through the granting of them, not through the imagination, hopes, and wishes of the players.
That's where house rules come from.

So while people are free to house-rule however they like, and their house-rules may be arguably superior to the official rules, that doesn't change what the official rules ARE.
And in this case, the official rules are clear: some powers heal MDC, and some do not.

[RainOfSteel]

Don't you just love people who flout their opinions as facts?

In this case, it's clearly not a matter where opinion counts.
If a power does not list an ability, it does not have that ability.

If x does not describe the power to heal MDC, then it does not.
That's a simple fact.

Outside of house rules, that is the way it has to be.

Otherwise every power and spell and item could do anything at all that wasn't listed in its description, as long it sounded "logical" and I assure you that I can make a great deal sound logical, at least to me.

However, if anyone does want to house-rule it, go for it! (Palladium's advice is even to do it that way.)

[Dr. Doom III]

Psionics powers that heal HP and SDC heal the same amount in MDC as HP.

[Killer Cyborg]

Ok, this post made me laugh. The logic used is so ridiculous it's comedy gold.

Don't you just love people who flout their opinions as facts?

In this case, it's clearly not a matter where opinion counts.

You should rephrase this, maybe something along the lines of "My opinion is the only one that matters here. If anyone disagrees with me then they are wrong."

My opinion does not count here.
The facts that I mention do.

If a power does not list an ability, it does not have that ability.

That is your house-rule and that is fine for your games.

No, it's how reality works.
If the rules of Monopoly do not include punching your opponent and taking his cash, then it's not legal according to the rules, and it's not a house rule to say that it's illegal.
If the rules of Risk do not mention using submarines to nuke your enemies, then it's not legal according to the rules, and it's not a house rule to say that it's illegal.
If the rules of Rifts do not mention using psychic powers to heal MDC, then it's not legal according to the rules, and it's not a house rule to say that it's illegal.

That's how things work.
If you have any counter-argument based on facts, present it.
Otherwise, all you have is your opinion, and we both know how little that's worth.

If x does not describe the power to heal MDC, then it does not.
That's a simple fact.

Unfortunately, no, it's not that simple, especially in this case where we have a Palladium Rules FAQ saying that it is fair to assume so and there are many, many precidents that leave it in ambiguity.

A FAQ that has no real bearing on the actual rules of the game.
The FAQ is answered here on the boards, by a consensus of people who happen to show up and post their views, then it is accepted or denied on the opinions of the mods and the original poster.
Unless there are official rules cited in the FAQ, or a direct quote from an official author, then the FAQ is meaningless.

All you've done here is state somebody else's opinion as if it were fact.
Because that's all that FAQ quote was, somebody else's opinion.

For either case, at best, it is a matter of judgment on the part of a GM. Stop telling people who disagree with you they are wrong on this. This is clearly a case where both sides are right.

No, it's not.
If the rules don't allow for something, then the rules don't allow for it.
It's that simple.

However people want to house-rule in their games is up to them, but nobody's opinion here affects what the rules actually are.

Telekinesis does not describe the ability to heal MDC, therefore it does not.
Pyrokinesis does not describe the ability to heal MDC, therefore it does not.
Telepathy does not describe the ability to heal MDC, therefore it does not.
Speed Reading does not describe the ability to heal MDC, therefore it does not.
6th Sense does not describe the ability to heal MDC, therefore it does not.
Mind Block does not describe the ability to heal MDC, therefore it does not.

I wonder why none of these describe the ability to heal MDC, or even imply it. Oh, that's right...they're not healing powers.

Exactly.

And now let's look at the list of official psionic Healing Powers:
Deaden Pain does not describe the ability to heal MDC, therefore it does not.
Detect Psionics does not describe the ability to heal MDC, therefore it does not.
Exorcism does not describe the ability to heal MDC, therefore it does not.
Induce Sleep does not describe the ability to heal MDC, therefore it does not.
Meditation does not describe the ability to heal MDC, therefore it does not.
Psychic Diagnosis does not describe the ability to heal MDC, therefore it does not.
Psychic Purification does not describe the ability to heal MDC, therefore it does not.
Resist Fatigue does not describe the ability to heal MDC, therefore it does not.
Restore PPE does not describe the ability to heal MDC, therefore it does not.
Stop Bleeding does not describe the ability to heal MDC, therefore it does not.
Suppress Fear does not describe the ability to heal MDC, therefore it does not.

And do you know why?
That's correct: even though they're healing powers, they're not designed to heal MDC.
We know this, because none of them describe that ability.

It's almost as if powers that don't describe the ability to heal MDC, don't heal MDC, regardless of whether or not they're designed to heal something, or are generally considered "healing" powers.

Similarly,
Bio-Regeneration does not describe the ability to heal MDC, therefore it does not.
Healing Touch does not describe the ability to heal MDC, therefore it does not.
Psychic Surgery does not describe the ability to heal MDC, therefore it does not.

Get the pattern yet?

And if a power used to heal SDC does not describe any ability to heal MDC, then it does not.

Again, your opinion.

You can't dismiss facts by pretending they're opinions, and it's foolish to attempt to do so.

the Palladium System is notoriously bad for providing vagueness in all of its rules through the years.

Agreed.
Which is why it's important that we as players and customers avoid just making **** up whenever we feel like it, and pretending that our desires are the official rules.
In this case, there is nothing in the rules allowing for psychic powers to heal MDC unless the power specifically says that it is possible

Other people take this into account to come up with their house-rules, even Kevin Siembieda himself. I would hope you are intelligent enough to at least have considered that before coming up with your ruling.

We're not talking about house rules.
I even stated as much, even though it's common sense that people can and do make up whatever house rules they want.
It's just as much common sense to know that house rules don't affect the actual rules of the game, so when people ask what the rules of the game are, discussing house rules is useless to the point of being counter-productive.

It's like asking somebody if it's legal to smoke pot, and having them tell you, "Sure, man. Do whatever you want. As long as you have fun, you're obeying the law."

When somebody asks about house rules, then I'll talk about house rules.
When somebody asks about rules, I'll talk about rules.
This is a case of the latter.

It doesn't matter if I, you, Kevin Siembieda, or God Almighty Himself and his entire host of angels ALL play by house rules- that doesn't change the official rules of the game one bit.
Capiche?

Powers come through the granting of them, not through the imagination, hopes, and wishes of the players.
That's where house rules come from.

So if I get this statement right, you are basically dismissing any contrary argument by accusing anyone who rules other than you do as a wishy-washy gamer? Nice, real classy.

I'm dismissing any contrary argument by pointing out what the rules say.
I'm dismissing non-existent rules that people claim might be there simply because these people think it would make more sense if they were as being confused on the difference between desire and reality.

"Wishy-Washy" describes an inability to make decisions, and is not something that I have mentioned or implied.
Making a false claim based on emotion is not the same as not making a decision, and I'm in the dark as to how you could equate the two.

So while people are free to house-rule however they like, and their house-rules may be arguably superior to the official rules, that doesn't change what the official rules ARE.

At least in one thing we are in agreement. However...

And in this case, the official rules are clear: some powers heal MDC, and some do not.

For the last time, no they are not! There is enough ambiguity given throughout the game system that we really need to question the way that psionics are written up. As I said before, there are numerous places that provide wiggle-room to justify healing powers healing MDC.[/quote]

I forgot that you repeating your opinion made it turn magically into fact.
My bad.

One final note. Killer Cyborg, the general consensus on this thread is that by the letter of the rules, psionics do not heal MDC, but that the rule is ambiguous and does need house-ruling and that people are free to make those rules as they feel are needed on this issue.

The general consensus is wrong- no house ruling is needed.

You are the only one making the argument that any house rule that enables psionics to heal MDC is just flat wrong and in blatant violation of the rules.

And since I have only made that argument in your imagination, I believe that this is an issue that you should resolve yourself.

I still maintain my position on the matter that the rules are ambiguous.

Feel free to provide some solid support for that position at any time.

[Killer Cyborg]

This is the original post:

I been looking and looking for References that Psionic can heal MDC beings. Such as Bio-Regenerate Self and Healing Touch and like Super Psionics Bio-Regeneration.

Can Psionics heal MDC beings and if so where does it say that? All I found searching this site were references to vague typical Palladium Wording that says nothing. And so far haven't found any thing. And the only thing I did find directly was changed in the Revised Conversions 1 book.

If some one can point it out to me if I missed it or some thing that might treat it as HP or some things would be appreciated.

If anybody can, anywhere in there, find any requests for help creating house rules, please highlight that section for me, because I can't find it anywhere in there.
If anybody can, anywhere in there, find any request for advice on whether or not it is permissible for people to create house rules, then please highlight that section for me, because I can't find it in there anywhere.

All I see is somebody asking for the official rules, and the location of the official rules.
That is all.

[Killer Cyborg]

And in this case, the official rules are clear: some powers heal MDC, and some do not.

Even a strict "just what the book says, no common sense allowed!" interpretation may still allow psychics the ability to heal MDC.

People always forget about Psychic Surgery. The equivalent of "professional hospital treatment". Unless there's a specific ruling that says MDC beings cannot be healed in any tech-based hospitals anywhere in the Megaverse, then they can be healed by Psychic Surgery.

I half-agree with you.
There is nothing preventing Psychic Surgery from being used on MDC beings.
On the other hand:
-There is no listed benefit anywhere I know of for MDC beings receiving "Professional Hospital" care.
-Psychic Surgery does not directly heal any Hit Points, SDC, or MDC

The sole benefit that I can see for an MDC being treated by psychic surgery is that they would have a much better chance of coming out of a coma, which is a pretty significant benefit when the situation arises.

Rules for professional treatment are listed somewhere. I'm sure one of you guys can dig them up and post them. I seem to recall MD being more expensive to treat. But not actually untreatable.

RUE 354-355 describes the rules for coming out of a coma and healing Hit Points and SDC under various types of care.
They do not seem to address any benefits for MDC beings.

[Killer Cyborg]

My opinion does not count here.
The facts that I mention do.

I see you have yourself convinced that your opinion is fact. That's fine, just don't expect anyone else to buy it.

Clever.
Since most of the rest of your responses focus on similar wit instead of addressing issues, I'm going to be skimming over a lot in my response to the rest of this post, only responding to the parts that are interesting or worthwhile.

Apparently I need to be more blunt.

Not at all.
You need to be less wrong.
It's not that I don't understand what you're saying, it's that what you're saying is incorrect.

That's how things work.
If you have any counter-argument based on facts, present it.
Otherwise, all you have is your opinion, and we both know how little that's worth.

I don't see why I should.

Obviously.
And so any productive discussion pretty much ends there, since you have nothing further to add.

The FAQ is only meaningless because it does not agree with your POV.

You're new here, and it's clearly showing in this response.
Do some research before you post.

I never said the FAQ ruling was fact. I simply presented it as part of the ambiguity of what you claim is a hard and fast rule.

There's no ambiguity; somebody's opinion on this message board does not change what is or is not in the books.

It is your opinion that the rules state that psionics do not heal MDC.

Uh... no.
Quit making stuff up.

It is my observation that the rules never grant certain psionic powers the ability to heal MDC.
If you do not understand the difference between what I just said and what you said, you might want to think on it, and ask around a bit, before you post again here.

And now let's look at the list of official psionic Healing Powers:

Nevermind that you didn't include the full list, but we'll get to that...[/quote]

Never claimed that I would.
I figured I'd walk you slowly through the line of thought, so that you'd have an easier time following.
So I started with the powers that most obviously do not heal MDC.

Funny, none of these psionics are designed to heal point-based damage. Gee, I wonder why they don't state that they heal MDC. They don't heal SDC either and really aren't the powers in question, are they?

Not at all.
As I said, I'm walking you slowly here.
I'm starting with stuff that we agree with, then demonstrating how it supports my side of the stuff that we disagree with.

And do you know why?
That's correct: even though they're healing powers, they're not designed to heal MDC.
We know this, because none of them describe that ability.

It's almost as if powers that don't describe the ability to heal MDC, don't heal MDC, regardless of whether or not they're designed to heal something, or are generally considered "healing" powers.

As I said before, the above powers aren't designed to heal damage at all or don't "heal" point-based damage.[/quote]

Yes. That was in fact part of my point.
Very good.

Similarly,
Bio-Regeneration does not describe the ability to heal MDC, therefore it does not.
Healing Touch does not describe the ability to heal MDC, therefore it does not.
Psychic Surgery does not describe the ability to heal MDC, therefore it does not.

Get the pattern yet?

You haven't shown one.

Again, think on it a bit.
Ask around for help.
See if anybody you know can identify the pattern if you really can't do it on your own.

You are adhering to the RAW as holy scripture when this system is the absolute worst to do this with.

What's your source on the underlined?
From where I sitting, it looks like it's just some guy's opinion, not fact.

We're not talking about house rules.
I even stated as much, even though it's common sense that people can and do make up whatever house rules they want.
It's just as much common sense to know that house rules don't affect the actual rules of the game, so when people ask what the rules of the game are, discussing house rules is useless to the point of being counter-productive.

I brought up the house rules to prove a point. That point being that pretty much everyone who plays feels the rules are insufficient as written. [/quote]

So you brought up something irrelevant in order to point out something that's blatantly obvious to everybody.
Noted.

As such, rigid absolutism in adhering to the rules is pretty stupid, even when someone asks what the rules are and ESPECIALLY with Rifts.

When somebody asks what the rules are, you do not believe that it's appropriate to stick with what the rules are.
Gotcha.

It's like asking somebody if it's legal to smoke pot, and having them tell you, "Sure, man. Do whatever you want. As long as you have fun, you're obeying the law."

Another red herring not even worth responding to.

Actually, it's an analogy.

When somebody asks about house rules, then I'll talk about house rules.
When somebody asks about rules, I'll talk about rules.
This is a case of the latter.

I addressed this above.

No, not really.
You mentioned why you brought up house rules.
You did not mention why you claimed that I was dismissing anybody's house rules, or ignoring the fact that people have house rules.

It doesn't matter if I, you, Kevin Siembieda, or God Almighty Himself and his entire host of angels ALL play by house rules- that doesn't change the official rules of the game one bit.
Capiche?

Again, the rules in this regard are ambiguous at best and the house-rules were brought up as a supporting point.

Again, the rules in this regard are NOT ambiguous, and house rules cannot make official rules ambiguous.
It doesn't matter how YOU play Monopoly, that doesn't change the actual rules of the game.
Same thing in Rifts.

The creator of the game himself feels the need to house-rule the rules he wrote. Doesn't that tell you something?

Yes.
It, along with having met the man and talked to him for quite a while, has taught me that sometimes he incorporates rules into the official version of his game simply because the fans want it, or because he thinks that the fans want it, NOT because that's how he wants to play the game himself.
He's a nice guy, and he wants to make people happy, so he adjusts his released product according to what he thinks will do that.

I take back my wishy-washy statement.

Thank you.

You are dismissing any argument to your point by basically saying anyone who says differently than you is delusional.

Incorrect.
Not everybody who says differently from me is delusional.
I am saying that the people who disagree with my observation of the facts, in preference of their own ideas of what should be fact, is delusional.
People who ignore reality in favor of fantasy are pretty much the definition of delusional.

I forgot that you repeating your opinion made it turn magically into fact.
My bad.

The same might be said about your assertions.

Which of my assertions have I repeated that you believe are untrue?
Please quote directly; your history so far of paraphrasing is far from accurate.

The general consensus is wrong- no house ruling is needed.

What was it you said above about opinions?

How is that an opinion?
You're seriously claiming that nobody can possibly play the game without house-ruling that psychics can heal MDC creatures?
Or that the official text cannot be understood without hearing about people's house rules?
In what way are house rules necessary to this conversation?

If that was just my opinion, then you should easily enough be able to come up with an opposing view based on fact that carries more weight.

Let's hear it.

And since I have only made that argument in your imagination, I believe that this is an issue that you should resolve yourself.

Ok, show me what your argument is then? What I see is that you say the rules are X, anyone who thinks Y is in violation of the rules, that the rules are very clear and anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong. Is that it?

House rules aren't really in violation of the rules; they're simply a change in the rules for the game in question.
There's nothing wrong with house rules, only with mistaking house rules for official rules, or in providing house rules as if they were official rules.
Because by definition house rules are not the official rules.

Feel free to provide some solid support for that position at any time.

Not that any would convince you.

As I said, your newness is showing.
I'm perfectly willing to admit when I am wrong, providing that somebody demonstrate it thoroughly, using logic.
So far, nobody has done that here.

If Nekira posts the rules she claims exists, then I'll have been proven wrong.
If Doom posts rules supporting his claim, then I'll have been proven wrong.
I've been proven wrong before, and I'll be proved wrong again.

But it'll never happen simply by people throwing tantrums and repeating opinions and house rules at me; all that proves is the character of the person behaving that way.

[Killer Cyborg]

OK if Bio-Regen doesn't heal MDC, then how do MDC beings heal themselves with Bio-Regen?

lol
That's make a good Zen riddle.

There are two kinds of bio-regeneration (probably more); it's just a term that Palladium uses instead of "regeneration."
Not sure why.

-There's the psychic power
-There's the supernatural power
-There's the biological ability

Different creatures use different forms in different ways.
Some creatures have natural (or supernatural) bio-regeneration.
Some psychics have a psychic power by that name.

But they're not the same thing.

A Dragon's bio-regeneration ability costs no ISP or PPE, and it heals 1d4x10 MDC per minute. We know these things because the books tell us.
A Psychic's bio-regeneration power costs ISP, and it heals a specific amount of SDC/HP. We know this because the books tell us.

But all that either of those forms do is what is listed under the description, nothing more, nothing less.

[Killer Cyborg]

Clever.
Since most of the rest of your responses focus on similar wit instead of addressing issues, I'm going to be skimming over a lot in my response to the rest of this post, only responding to the parts that are interesting or worthwhile.

Translation: I am going to repeat my mantra and cherry-pick what I want to respond to in order to belittle, patronize and subtly insult the person I am having a discussion with.

No translation needed; I meant what I said, and that's what I did.
Again, the facts are there for anybody to read, so I'm not sure why you pretend that they're not.

This conversation is over.

Works for me. I'm content that each of our respective ends of the conversation adequately demonstrate our personalities and powers of reason, as well as the levels of validity of our arguments.

All you do is repeat a mantra and refuse to see that there is an alternative view to yours and keep touting your views as fact while belittling anyone who thinks otherwise.

Do a quick head count; there are quite a few here who I have not belittled, but that do disagree with me.
Again, the facts are there to read, for anybody who cares to do so.

[Killer Cyborg]

What about the Lost One RCC? They don't get Bio-Regen as a Racial ability but they can take it as a Psionic ability.

I'm not familiar with them, so I can't say for sure.
All I can say is that, based on your post, that they get the psychic version of Bio-Regeneration, therefore cannot heal MDC, only SDC/HP, and only to the degree described in the power.

[Shark_Force]

What about the Lost One RCC? They don't get Bio-Regen as a Racial ability but they can take it as a Psionic ability.

don't have the book on me, but i'd guess they can probably take summon inner strength as well, which grants bonus SDC. would you claim that the official rules (not houserules) would grant them bonus MDC when they use bio-regen?

it may or may not be a sound house-rule, but that's not the point. the rules tell us that the psionic powers do heal SDC. they don't tell us that they heal MDC. i'm fairly certain there's a specific ruling somewhere dealing with the fact that spells only heal MDC if they explicitly state so, and if that is the case, the same ruling would logically (but not officially) extend to psionics.

whether or not you or i would play with the official rules is not the point. a person asked for official rules.

[Killer Cyborg]

What about the Lost One RCC? They don't get Bio-Regen as a Racial ability but they can take it as a Psionic ability.

don't have the book on me, but i'd guess they can probably take summon inner strength as well, which grants bonus SDC. would you claim that the official rules (not houserules) would grant them bonus MDC when they use bio-regen?

it may or may not be a sound house-rule, but that's not the point. the rules tell us that the psionic powers do heal SDC. they don't tell us that they heal MDC. i'm fairly certain there's a specific ruling somewhere dealing with the fact that spells only heal MDC if they explicitly state so, and if that is the case, the same ruling would logically (but not officially) extend to psionics.

whether or not you or i would play with the official rules is not the point. a person asked for official rules.

Bingo.

[Mack]

Play nice folks. If you can't do that, don't post.

[jaymz]

Rhomphaia - Killer Cyborg has done nothing but state fact. There is NO by the book ruling that allows any psionic powers to heal direct MDC. NONE. That is not an opinion it is a fact. He has not said anywhere (I know I read all of his post twice now to check) that a house rule allowing such isn't allowed. If you can quote where he said it that would be great, thanks. You are the only one practically screaming that your opinion is fact. Everyone else seems to be saying that it is just something that may need to be house ruled to allow it while you point to the faq and say "SEE IT'S RIGHT THERE". The faq is as USELESS as it is USEFUL depending on the specific topic in question. Unless it is someone, namely Kevin himself since he is really the only one qualified to give a diffinitive answer on ANY ruling, the faq has to be taken with a huge grain of salt at best as it is largely answers that are peoples opinion that seem to fit the wording of the rules the most logically not neccessarily fact.

Now I have said the same as KC, you want to house rule that psionic powers CAN heal MDC directly then by all means, it's your game do what you want(hell I house rule it that way myself in MY games), but when the OP is specifically looking for what comes across as a BY THE BOOK ANSWER you can only use facts and the facts are there are none. That is not opinion it is fact. Unless of course you can cite a page number to reference one somewhere that does in fact heal direct MDC.

[SkyeFyre]

Because it came up earlier in the topic: Rifts Conversion Book 1 Unrevised, page 22 under Converting an S.D.C. creature into a mega-damage structure:

"Mega-damage is healed/restored the same way as a human regains hit points from medical treatment and rest."

[jaymz]

Rhomphaia - Killer Cyborg has done nothing but state fact. There is NO by the book ruling that allows any psionic powers to heal direct MDC. NONE. That is not an opinion it is a fact. He has not said anywhere (I know I read all of his post twice now to check) that a house rule allowing such isn't allowed. If you can quote where he said it that would be great, thanks. You are the only one practically screaming that your opinion is fact. Everyone else seems to be saying that it is just something that may need to be house ruled to allow it while you point to the faq and say "SEE IT'S RIGHT THERE". The faq is as USELESS as it is USEFUL depending on the specific topic in question. Unless it is someone, namely Kevin himself since he is really the only one qualified to give a diffinitive answer on ANY ruling, the faq has to be taken with a huge grain of salt at best as it is largely answers that are peoples opinion that seem to fit the wording of the rules the most logically not neccessarily fact.

Now I have said the same as KC, you want to house rule that psionic powers CAN heal MDC directly then by all means, it's your game do what you want(hell I house rule it that way myself in MY games), but when the OP is specifically looking for what comes across as a BY THE BOOK ANSWER you can only use facts and the facts are there are none. That is not opinion it is fact. Unless of course you can cite a page number to reference one somewhere that does in fact heal direct MDC.

You re-read his posts, but not mine. Go back and do that. I am not arguing that psionic powers do heal MDC. I am taking issue with KC's iron-fisted authoritarian stance on the issue that they cannot and that there is no ambiguity in the matter when in fact there is a ton of it. He is not allowing any room for caveats when it is clearly necessary in this case.

But, I don't have to worry about that anymore. After his last post, I just decided to stop listening to his insulting, childish behavior.

No he has stated every time that "by the book" while you have argued ad nauseum that it HAS to be house ruled to allow it because of perceived ambiguity. Not every one thinks it is ambiguous. You have also repeatedly pointed to an unofficial faq as if that should be the defining stance on the matter and it is far from it on this matter as well as others (need a remind others about the whole impervious to energy debate surrounding the Mystic knights?)

Furthermore KC HAS stated on more than one occasion that if you want to house rule it go right ahead, it just isn't the official rule but apparently you missed those parts of his posts. And for the record I have reread your posts.

[RainOfSteel]

If a power does not list an ability, it does not have that ability.

That is your house-rule and that is fine for your games.

The Rules as Written are not house-rules. Variations, like adding in capabilities that are not listed, those are house-rules.

[Athos]

OK if Bio-Regen doesn't heal MDC, then how do MDC beings heal themselves with Bio-Regen?

Very, very slowly at the rate of 100 SDC to 1 MDC

That would be the strict book interpretation anyways...

Killer Cyborg is correct.

My house rule, and since I am the GM in this case for GT's poor mdc character, is that super bio regeneration will heal 1d4 MD per use. I think this is a fair amount and comparable to the Greater Healing spell. Other psychic healing will not work on MDC beings unless it says it will in the description. At least for our game.

We (GT and I) have looked all through the books for references to psychic healing MDC creatures, and they do not exist. There are implications and you can make assumptions, but there is NO PSYCHIC POWER that says it can heal MDC creatures of MD wounds. I hate assumptions though, and implications are just that... you can have whatever house rules you want in your game of course though...

[Anthar]

Very, very slowly at the rate of 100 SDC to 1 MDC

That would be the strict book interpretation anyways...

Incorrect, as stated earlier by someone it is written in CB:1 that MDC heals at a rate equal to HPs.

[jaymz]

No he has stated every time that "by the book" while you have argued ad nauseum that it HAS to be house ruled to allow it because of perceived ambiguity. Not every one thinks it is ambiguous. You have also repeatedly pointed to an unofficial faq as if that should be the defining stance on the matter and it is far from it on this matter as well as others

Everyone seems focused on poking holes in my stance by using house rules and the FAQ. Those aside, there are numerous other reasons why this whole issue is up in the air and is not definitive. The simple fact that even one RCC that is an MDC being and is specifically given one of the healing powers asked about (one of those was mentioned earlier this thread) is enough to make one scratch their heads. Also, it is stated multiple times in different books (specifically I can think of CB1 and Skraypers) where it says specifically that MDC is functionally hit points. Do you want me to do all the work for you and get the quotes or can you do it yourself?

By all means get the quotes that specify psionics abilities do in fact heal x amount MDC. Of course MDC is funtctionaly hit points but functionality is not the same as MDC ARE hit points OR SDC.

(need a remind others about the whole impervious to energy debate surrounding the Mystic knights?)

Trollbait much? I simply stopped posting on that thread because the whole thing was coming down to judgment calls and semantics and there was no right answer.

Defensive much? I wasn't referring to you at all with that reference but the fact the faq is about as useful as it useless. Learn about context, it can be quite useful.

Furthermore KC HAS stated on more than one occasion that if you want to house rule it go right ahead, it just isn't the official rule but apparently you missed those parts of his posts.

No, I didn't. I simply did not address those parts of his posts because it wasn't the matter at hand. The issue at hand is what KC was claiming was fact and that anyone that disagreed with that assertion was delusional (check his words).

[/quote]

No what he claimed as fact was in fact, facts. There is no by the book ruling that allows psionic abilities that heal x amount mdc.
There are not any as much as you might like to think there are and the OP was looking for an official by the book answer. The answer is no there are not, plain and simple.

[jaymz]

Very, very slowly at the rate of 100 SDC to 1 MDC

That would be the strict book interpretation anyways...

Incorrect, as stated earlier by someone it is written in CB:1 that MDC heals at a rate equal to HPs.

Which, iirc, is 2 per day with or without medical treatment since again, iirc, it is the amount of sdc that increases with medical treatment.