Elf Mind Melter ?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Yes, she only gets the class PPE amount.

[Athos]

Is that a house rule, or is it in the books somewhere? If so, where?

Would it apply to like a True Atlantean as well then? ( TA's start with 22 PPE, 12 from Marks of Heritage + 10 base ) If it doesn't apply to TA's, why not? What other races would it not apply to?

This seems a bit arbitrary, not that palladium has ever been arbitrary in the past

Mages can have some psychic abilities, seems like psychics should be able to have some PPE if they are from a high PPE race...

[Svartalf]

Drewkitty's answer is the authoritative rules answer. Many master psionics have small PPE compared to normal members of their species, because developing psi abilities is somehow burning off some of the natural PPE. So an elf would also find himself with reduced PPE, specifically the amount specified by the class (which is normal since high PPE species are normally magic, not psi oriented, and going against grain entails not developing the high PPE normal in the species)

[Athos]

Drewkitty's answer is the authoritative rules answer.

That is just too funny to pass up...

So you have no idea where in the books it says other races lose their PPE like humans, so you just assume they do and say that is the "authoritative rules answer"?

You can do better than that, surely...

[Svartalf]

Technically, it doesn't.
But
a) if it sayss so in the PCC itself, there's no reason to believe it's any different with other races (unless a mention of the contrary is present, like those PPE rich races who are specifically mentioned as addint that PPE to that of any magic OCC)

b) I've been following PB games for more than 20 years, I know the history and logic of that thing. Being a Master psionic reduces your PPE, and that's true regardless of race.

[Killer Cyborg]

I made an Elf Mind Melter and had a question, since she's a Mind Melter does she lose all the PPE that is standard for an elf and only get the 2d4 as stated for the Mind Melter? I just want to make sure I have the information correct.

I have always ruled that whatever is the highest is correct amount.

In many cases, that's the right way to go, but not in this case.
The factor being that with psychics, their PPE is burned up in obtaining their psychic powers, so the psychic OCC will over-ride their race base PPE: the racial listing is the starting point, and the OCC listing for psychic OCCs is the end result.

If you wanted to be really precise about things, though, you could assume that the 2d4 PPE for Mind Melters is based on an assumption that the race is human, and that it should be adjusted accordingly with another race.
In which case, you could determine what fraction of overall human PPE 2d4 is, then lower the standard Elf PPE accordingly.
(i.e., if humans started with 2d6 PPE, and it's reduced to 2d4 PPE, then elf PPE could be dropped by the same measure, their d6s of PPE turning into d4s).

[Kalidor]

Mind Melter is a Racial Character Class, as such, it's racial abilities (or penalties) supersede the standard of a given race, as described in he class when talking about what happens to someone's PPE who becomes a Mind Melter. So no, you won't find an entry that says "Except Elves" in parenthesis in regards to them being affected.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Drewkitty's answer is the authoritative rules answer. Many master psionics have small PPE compared to normal members of their species, because developing psi abilities is somehow burning off some of the natural PPE. So an elf would also find himself with reduced PPE, specifically the amount specified by the class (which is normal since high PPE species are normally magic, not psi oriented, and going against grain entails not developing the high PPE normal in the species)

My answer was the Canon answer.
It says in the class description that the MM has burned off Most of their PPE to develop their Psi powers. With only a tithe left, which is defined as 2d4, if my memory serves me correctly. When a question is asked I give the canon answer as best as I understand it. Most of the time I boil it down to as short and unambiguous an answer as I can.

I'm not saying that GM's can't adjust the PPE burn off to reflect a race's higher normal PPE, to fit their ideas of how things should work. Or if you are running a high-powered campaign to give those with the higher normal PPE with extra powers to reflect that they burned off More PPE then humans would of.


Kalidor, The 'ing book is wrong. A Mind Melter is a PCC, Psychic Char Class, Just like a Mind mage is a PCC, and the Mind Master is a PCC.
*hands out a reading assignment to everyone to read the definitions of RCC and PCC.
KS even came out to say that the reason for calling some races and PCC's, RCC's in rifts is for stylistic reasons.
One of the things I Despise about RUE is they took the DogBoy RCC (which was correctly labeled as an RCC in the RMB) and made it an OCC.

[Mack]

One of the things I Despise about RUE is they took the DogBoy RCC (which was correctly labeled as an RCC in the RMB) and made it an OCC.

There's a fine distinction with Dog Boys that most people miss. There's two definitions of "Dog Boy"-- 1) The race, and 2) the occupation.

The occupation is an OCC, but with a racial restriction to Dog Boys (the race), which is a round-about way of making it an RCC. The advantage is that freeborn Dog Boys (the race) may choose a different OCC (such as Bounty Hunter, etc). Had it been called a normal RCC then it would preclude freeborn's from choosing a different occupation, hence the round-about method.

[grandmaster z0b]

What about the True Atlantean scenario? They must keep their PPE to power their Marks of Heritage, yet don't seem to have any negative side effects from not burning up all their PPE.

[Mack]

What about the True Atlantean scenario? They must keep their PPE to power their Marks of Heritage, yet don't seem to have any negative side effects from not burning up all their PPE.

I don't have the book in front of me, but here's my approach:
1) Reduce there's starting PPE the same percentage that a human's in reduced (same as Killer Cyborg said above)
2) Then add the extra PPE from each tattoo.

The Marks of Heritage don't require much PPE to activate, so this should be sufficient. (Again, I don't have the book handy to verify the numbers.) This also provides a reasonable amount of balance because it prevents Mind-Melter TA's from using the more powerful tattoos.

[grandmaster z0b]

What about the True Atlantean scenario? They must keep their PPE to power their Marks of Heritage, yet don't seem to have any negative side effects from not burning up all their PPE.

I don't have the book in front of me, but here's my approach:
1) Reduce there's starting PPE the same percentage that a human's in reduced (same as Killer Cyborg said above)
2) Then add the extra PPE from each tattoo.

The Marks of Heritage don't require much PPE to activate, so this should be sufficient. (Again, I don't have the book handy to verify the numbers.) This also provides a reasonable amount of balance because it prevents Mind-Melter TA's from using the more powerful tattoos.

Also, surplus PPE can be used to power TW devices and such at a more efficient rate than using ISP.

However it doesn't stop MM TA's from getting more powerful tattoos because I think when you get the tattoo, you get the minimum amount of PPE to power it IIRC.

[gelidus]

What about the True Atlantean scenario? They must keep their PPE to power their Marks of Heritage, yet don't seem to have any negative side effects from not burning up all their PPE.

I don't have the book in front of me, but here's my approach:
1) Reduce there's starting PPE the same percentage that a human's in reduced (same as Killer Cyborg said above)
2) Then add the extra PPE from each tattoo.

The Marks of Heritage don't require much PPE to activate, so this should be sufficient. (Again, I don't have the book handy to verify the numbers.) This also provides a reasonable amount of balance because it prevents Mind-Melter TA's from using the more powerful tattoos.

HA! Last time I checked if you go by the rules a TA vampire hunter/mind melter or any class thats not a tatto class can only use one outta two of there Marks of Heritage

[keir451]

One of the things I Despise about RUE is they took the DogBoy RCC (which was correctly labeled as an RCC in the RMB) and made it an OCC.

There's a fine distinction with Dog Boys that most people miss. There's two definitions of "Dog Boy"-- 1) The race, and 2) the occupation.

The occupation is an OCC, but with a racial restriction to Dog Boys (the race), which is a round-about way of making it an RCC. The advantage is that freeborn Dog Boys (the race) may choose a different OCC (such as Bounty Hunter, etc). Had it been called a normal RCC then it would preclude freeborn's from choosing a different occupation, hence the round-about method.

Is it not more accurate to say that the Dog Boy "OCC" is restricted to Canids in general as, IIRC, the Conversion book stated that Wolfen could become Dog Boys and the Aliens Unlimited guide allowed the same thing for its Canid Races?
But, in this instance, Drew Kitty is correct. The Class itself defines how much PPE your character has after mastering his psionics.

[Kalidor]

My Rifts book is a second printing, give me a break I've had it for a while...


But in any case, the class still states what happens so I was agreeing with you Drew in that there's no "Unless you are an elf" clause in there.

[Athos]

My answer was the Canon answer.

Well of course we should go to you instead of the books, baka books, what do they know... You still can't give a page reference that shows yours is even a correct answer. Look in dbees of north america, there are races like the demon dragon mage that are master psychics and spell users, major psychics can be mages, psi druids are master psychics and have more PPE than a normal human.

I fail to see why you think your hubris is justified without having any book in rifts agree with you. Yours is simply the most common house rule, that is all.

[Svartalf]

excuse me sir, but can you give us where in the books it says that racial traits supersede OCC traits?
Since race comes before OCC in char creation... well, if OCC specifically says to nerf something, maybe that something is to be nerfed, period.

[drewkitty ~..~]

One of the things I Despise about RUE is they took the DogBoy RCC (which was correctly labeled as an RCC in the RMB) and made it an OCC.

There's a fine distinction with Dog Boys that most people miss. There's two definitions of "Dog Boy"-- 1) The race, and 2) the occupation.

The occupation is an OCC, but with a racial restriction to Dog Boys (the race), which is a round-about way of making it an RCC. The advantage is that freeborn Dog Boys (the race) may choose a different OCC (such as Bounty Hunter, etc). Had it been called a normal RCC then it would preclude freeborn's from choosing a different occupation, hence the round-about method.

The typical way that an individual of a race (talking game mechanics, to be a class other then the RCC of their race is that of loosing the RCC, skills, powers, abilities, etc... all of it. And be the OCC or different PCC.

There is still the problem that even in RUE the CS DogBoy class is STILL mislabeled as a an OCC, when it is a PCC.

If the Dogboy's powers were suppose to be a racial powers then the text should have been written to have then as racial powers and not the PCC's powers.

-----------------
*@ Athos*
There is a page number, it is the one where the text for class is listed. Because there is no listing for 'other then humans' exceptions text In The Text Of The Class.

Since, as turn about is fair play, YOU list where it is a general rule that the final PPE is adjusted due to a race's natural high PPE. Not just using 'way out' exceptions to norm to imply that your idea for a home rule is canon.

BTW, when I make a comment about the books being wrong, I put the blame for this in only one place for bad editing. The guy who does the editing, for not making sure that all the text conforms to the standard game terms.

Svartalf, any master psi classes are PCC's, not OCC's.
While what you said is mostly correct, except for the using the term 'OCC' interchangeably with the term 'Class'.

[grandmaster z0b]

One of the things I Despise about RUE is they took the DogBoy RCC (which was correctly labeled as an RCC in the RMB) and made it an OCC.

There's a fine distinction with Dog Boys that most people miss. There's two definitions of "Dog Boy"-- 1) The race, and 2) the occupation.

The occupation is an OCC, but with a racial restriction to Dog Boys (the race), which is a round-about way of making it an RCC. The advantage is that freeborn Dog Boys (the race) may choose a different OCC (such as Bounty Hunter, etc). Had it been called a normal RCC then it would preclude freeborn's from choosing a different occupation, hence the round-about method.

The typical way that an individual of a race (talking game mechanics, to be a class other then the RCC of their race is that of loosing the RCC, skills, powers, abilities, etc... all of it. And be the OCC or different PCC.

There is still the problem that even in RUE the CS DogBoy class is STILL mislabeled as a an OCC, when it is a PCC.

If the Dogboy's powers were suppose to be a racial powers then the text should have been written to have then as racial powers and not the PCC's powers.

-----------------

The current situation does make it difficult to tell if a Dog Boy takes a different OCC whether they still get their normal Psi-Powers, and to what degree. I would like to see a minimum set of psi-powers the race gets that are lower than a properly trained psi-hound (either CS or a freeborn who's trained up their psi-powers and essentially the same).