Telekinetic... Flight?!?

[Dead Boy]

While looking something up today, this passage caught my eye under the write-up for the psionic power of Telekinesis...

"Telekinesis does not allow psychics to levitate themselves or fly, due to the weight limitation (see Super Telekinesis)". (RUE 170)

So, if that's the only thing holding them back, and given that 20 ISP will get a 200 lb person off the ground for 2 minutes per level using Super TK, does that mean those with Super TK can fly? And if so, how fast?

Discuss, please.

[The Baron of chaos]

Well thius is an old issue, and I think had already be discussed , to the point of causing menta headache to most Palladium Writers(well its part of the their job, I think).
Officiually the speed you cna fly with TK: super was(I use past becasue, well keep on reading..) an amazing...6. Yes a pet turtle with a paralized leg is actually FASTER than that . This is why NO ONE ever consider that. A better analysis of how TK flight could work can be found in an awesome article fo Mark Hall on Rifter 44, page 45 to 51, with telekinesis super detailed on page 48(base speed is moving stuff with TK is 25 but can be increased spending more ISP with the logic that if you move an object weighting n lbs. with a force that can move n+100lbs. than you move faster.). Personally I think fall in those Rifter articles so-good-that-should-be-canon category. I hope I was helpful

[Dead Boy]

Well thius is an old issue, and I think had already be discussed

Use the search function.

You liars. There's nothing to be found in the search using the key words "telekinesis flight" or "telekinesis fly" (and half of what did come up was stuff I wrote), and I don't recall seeing this subject before though I've been hanging on these boards for over a decade. Could I have forgotten or missed it? Possible. But the searchable history doesn't support the claims this has been discussed before.

Officiually the speed you cna fly with TK: super was(I use past becasue, well keep on reading..) an amazing...6.

"Official"? Source please, because frankly I don't buy it.

[Killer Cyborg]

Read the Collected MOPs.
The question of using TK to fly is addressed there.

[Greyaxe]

No you cant fly because you cant hold yourself up and still push against the earth. you may make someone else "fly".

Just my two cents.

[cornholioprime]

No you cant fly because you cant hold yourself up and still push against the earth. you may make someone else "fly".

Just my two cents.

Telekinesis is a quasi-supernatural phenomenon and, therefore, you don't need to be standing on the ground or anywhere else in order to use it effectively; you aren't actually lifting that weight according to the rules of physics and therefore you don't be to be standing on the ground as a sort of 'fulcrum.'

(Otherwise, if TK did follow the laws of physics, strictly speaking, the weight of the heavy object that you're levitating would rip your arm off -the one that you're making the Yoda-like motions with -if not also radically deform your spine and pulverize your kneecaps.)

[Dead Boy]

No you cant fly because you cant hold yourself up and still push against the earth. you may make someone else "fly".

So? Technically speaking, the very concept of telekinesis violates the laws of thermodynamics. Psychic abilities aren't based in physics.

Read the Collected MOPs.
The question of using TK to fly is addressed there.

Okay... I found this quote in the link you were kind enough to send me...

The Collected MOPs (p. 38), in response to the question "If a Psionic has Telekinesis, can he fly?", says:
"One can propel himself at a speed of 6 and a height of a few feet. This is not levitation! Telekinesis is really meant to throw/hurl small objects around, or used as weapons or shields, or can be used to block someone/something. See page 132 of Heroes Unlimited."

The Collected what now?!? What the fudge is The Collected MOP

Some how, this doesn't ring very well with a genuine authoritative tone.

EDIT: Okay, disregard the question regarding "what the fudge is the MOP". I found it and downloaded a PDF copy from Drive-Through RPG. And now that I've read it with my own two eyes, I must say... what a total crock!

First of all that Q&A exchange is over twenty years old! Pre-Rifts old! It's applicability and validity are questionable at best.

Secondly, the question was only about regular TK, not Super TK. Who knows if the TK writeup from Palladium's source material in the mid 80's even had that "flight" caveat at the end regarding Super. As a matter of fact, while the flight indicator is in the Telekinesis description in RUE, in my old RMB that entire paragraph was yet to be.

[The Dark Elf]

I wouldnt allow it. Why? IMO I think it it would be unbalancing and retract a bit from the flight/levitation spells/abilities/powers. At least in my games.

Im editing this. "unbalancing" isnt the right word. I dont like having abilities that have the same powers as other abilities. In this case why would anyone get levitation. Have telekinesis instead.

It's not even like the spells where levitation is a lower spell than fly or fly is with an object and you can get fly as eagle later. Those are substantially different and lead to more role playing.

[Bood Samel]

TK flight works in the marvel comics universe, so I'd allow it in HU certainly, but I could see not using it in rifts. Psionics in superhero settings are super powers, while in rifts their more along the lines of occult talents.

[Killer Cyborg]

The Collected MOPs (p. 38), in response to the question "If a Psionic has Telekinesis, can he fly?", says:
"One can propel himself at a speed of 6 and a height of a few feet. This is not levitation! Telekinesis is really meant to throw/hurl small objects around, or used as weapons or shields, or can be used to block someone/something. See page 132 of Heroes Unlimited."

The Collected what now?!? What the fudge is The Collected MOP

Some how, this doesn't ring very well with a genuine authoritative tone.

EDIT: Okay, disregard the question regarding "what the fudge is the MOP". I found it and downloaded a PDF copy from Drive-Through RPG. And now that I've read it with my own two eyes, I must say... what a total crock!

First of all that Q&A exchange is over twenty years old! Pre-Rifts old! It's applicability and validity are questionable at best.

Megaversal system.
Unless you have any indication that TK works differently in Rifts than it does in the other Palladium games, then it doesn't work differently.
Unless you have any indication that there has been a rule change regarding using TK to fly in the past 20+ years, then there hasn't been.

If you have anything more solid, by all means bring it into the discussion.

Secondly, the question was only about regular TK, not Super TK.

Super TK is basically the same power as TK, except Super TK has more range and different weight restrictions.
The powers function the same.

Who knows if the TK writeup from Palladium's source material in the mid 80's even had that "flight" caveat at the end regarding Super. As a matter of fact, while the flight indicator is in the Telekinesis description in RUE, in my old RMB that entire paragraph was yet to be.

There is no flight indicator or caveat. There is only a reference to Super TK being able to lift more.
But I don't see any logical reason why that would matter.
Regular TK can lift a person off the ground if you use the ISP.
Regular TK can hurl a person around, if you use the ISP.
The text of the TK power describes hurling a 125 lb object, and there are people who weigh less than that.
And that's not the max weight limit of the power or anything either.

In the MOP text, the objections to flight aren't really based on weight:
" Telekinesis is really meant to throw/hurl small objects around, or used as weapons or shields, or can be used to block someone/something."
Yes, the word "small" objects is in there.
But the other words seem to be more important.
TK is meant to throw/hurl, which is different from flying.
Flight requires fine control, and TK doesn't really offer that.

The question does seem to be asking about regular TK instead of Super TK, but since there is no mention in the MOPs about Super TK being an exception, it wouldn't be.

Unless there's something on page 132 of Heroes Unlimited that mentions it.
Your best bet would be to find a copy of the original HU and see.

[The Baron of chaos]

I wouldnt allow it. Why? IMO I think it it would be unbalancing and retract a bit from the flight/levitation spells/abilities/powers. At least in my games.

Im editing this. "unbalancing" isnt the right word. I dont like having abilities that have the same powers as other abilities. In this case why would anyone get levitation. Have telekinesis instead.

It's not even like the spells were levitation is a lower spell than fly or fly is with an object and you can get fly as eagle later. Those are substantially different and lead to more role playing.

Hmm This thread is starting to...ya know getting too interesting(in chinese sense of the word "interesting"), but oh well, let's get the blazing fires of discussion burn in all their glory.
Exactly why and where levitation is same as fly as the eagle? Is a very limited Psychic(sometimes spell) power. And frankly one of most intriguing aspect of telekinesis is that in theory you could fly. Now in origin I did it by combining Levitation(to ignore gravity) and Telekinesis to move horizontally(nothing say that levitation lock you in place, just that you cannot fly just with it, so if you have some propulsion, either telekinesis, a rocket, or a rope tied to an horse). But why not get over the middleman(levitation), and not doing that DIRECTLY with TK super? And sincerely ther eis a weird hostility toward flying in Rifts, unless of course you have a power armor of sort, in that case you can even reach mach speed and no one would say a thing(they would be too scared to say something against you, jetpack wielding monster of technology, you!). Whoever fly with natural means, and is not from HU earth or from South America(Rifts South America RULESS!!!), is cursed to REALLY slow speed.

TK is meant to throw/hurl, which is different from flying.
Flight requires fine control, and TK doesn't really offer that.

The question does seem to be asking about regular TK instead of Super TK, but since there is no mention in the MOPs about Super TK being an exception, it wouldn't be.

Unless there's something on page 132 of Heroes Unlimited that mentions it.
Your best bet would be to find a copy of the original HU and see.

Hmm on page 132 of HU revised(not 2nd edition, this is the blue one not the big white one) telekinesis is described as "the ability to move oneself or physical object through the power of thought." So flight was implied. But never detailed. In many Rifts book's illustrations we see psionic flying or air walking without so much a trouble, but pictures are not canon, and could be a very elastic(and one would wish for it being canon) interpretation of levitation. In Rifts South America we got most mutants got forms of telekinetically/psionic enhanced flight, and Achilles NeoHuman have TK flight all right, but they are mutants and do not count toward "average" psionic ability to fly. In that pathetic excuse for sourcebook that is Psyscape(I hate it. I'll say it plain and simple.) Psy-slayer can telekinetically air walk, but in theory is a psionic just for them. Even if is wrong , considering how many other peculiarities they got. In Transdimensional Turtle there is psionic power that allow to TK float around, is a mutant animal style psi power, so with all the bonus and side effect of it. In Power Unlimited 2 there under empowered sionic, too there is an advanced form of telekinesis that allow you to float here and there, but is limited to paralized psionic or those without legs..
NOTE Spellcaster got all possible advantages, as well as Tech users. Superpowered character(HU style) had the advantage of having to be based on very fast flying characters concept so can't be nerfed down all that much, but psionic....weeeell Psionics suffer from a very unfair treatment from palladium books(with the sole exceptions of Shadows of Light and Between the Shadows, best psionci themed book of Palladium print EVER!!). Of course I coudl be wrong about all this psionic thing, and could just be an accidental thing, due to tech books and spell books being a good product in a matrix of easy to produce/easy to seel ratio. And the contrast high tech/hihg magic IS indeed the backbone of Rifts setting. So it come more natural to thing new and weird tech and spells that new and weird psionic powers.
But is the nerfing down from the past envision of PCC that really upset me. Once time Psionic could fly, got a badass hydrokinesis power(you could actually win a battle with it, a battle against NON-vampires!! In ARMORS!!), and according to MEchanoid books, could also teleport!! TELEPORT!!! Now I could assume that most powers were simply too much, and perhaps needed to be tailored better to fit the new settings and game rules, but seem to me that all was reduced to an unfair trolling at the expense of psionics.
And here I stop. Because psionic in Rifts always pull some awful string in myself.

[Killer Cyborg]

Unless there's something on page 132 of Heroes Unlimited that mentions it.
Your best bet would be to find a copy of the original HU and see.

Hmm on page 132 of HU revised(not 2nd edition, this is the blue one not the big white one) telekinesis is described as "the ability to move oneself or physical object through the power of thought." So flight was implied. But never detailed.

Hm.
Now that IS interesting!

In many Rifts book's illustrations we see psionic flying or air walking without so much a trouble, but pictures are not canon, and could be a very elastic(and one would wish for it being canon) interpretation of levitation.

Yup.

In Rifts South America we got most mutants got forms of telekinetically/psionic enhanced flight, and Achilles NeoHuman have TK flight all right, but they are mutants and do not count toward "average" psionic ability to fly.

And, I would argue, the existence of specific TK Flight powers indicates that normal TK doesn't cover flight.

Psy-slayer can telekinetically air walk, but in theory is a psionic just for them.

Yup. Same as the TK Flight powers.

Even if is wrong , considering how many other peculiarities they got. In Transdimensional Turtle there is psionic power that allow to TK float around, is a mutant animal style psi power, so with all the bonus and side effect of it. In Power Unlimited 2 there under empowered sionic, too there is an advanced form of telekinesis that allow you to float here and there, but is limited to paralized psionic or those without legs..

The Transdimensional TMNT powers for mutant humans also only let you do one thing at a time, IIRC; either you can TK Walk, OR you can TK grab something.
Just as a side note.

Psionics suffer from a very unfair treatment from palladium books

Not exactly. It's just that psionics are a different, less flashy tool.
It's not really more unfair than the power difference between my reciprocating saw and my multi-tool.

But is the nerfing down from the past envision of PCC that really upset me. Once time Psionic could fly, got a badass hydrokinesis power(you could actually win a battle with it, a battle against NON-vampires!! In ARMORS!!), and according to MEchanoid books, could also teleport!! TELEPORT!!! Now I could assume that most powers were simply too much, and perhaps needed to be tailored better to fit the new settings and game rules, but seem to me that all was reduced to an unfair trolling at the expense of psionics.

My favorite psi-power to get the axe was "Alter Alignment" from PFRPG.
You could entirely rewrite a person's personality, far more than just their alignment, if they failed a save.

[Svartalf]

No you cant fly because you cant hold yourself up and still push against the earth. you may make someone else "fly".

Just my two cents.

Telekinesis is a quasi-supernatural phenomenon and, therefore, you don't need to be standing on the ground or anywhere else in order to use it effectively; you aren't actually lifting that weight according to the rules of physics and therefore you don't be to be standing on the ground as a sort of 'fulcrum.'

(Otherwise, if TK did follow the laws of physics, strictly speaking, the weight of the heavy object that you're levitating would rip your arm off -the one that you're making the Yoda-like motions with -if not also radically deform your spine and pulverize your kneecaps.)

Actually, I've got a theory that telek has nothing to do with gravity or any relationship to the earth.
It has to do with the object's relation with the telekineticist.
Since you can't change place in relation to yourself, that's why tk can't be used to move yourself.

[Dead Boy]

I dont like having abilities that have the same powers as other abilities. In this case why would anyone get levitation. Have telekinesis instead.

Actually, strictly by the letter of how it's spelled out, you'd need Super TK to pull this trick off; regular TK is insufficient for the job for some odd reason.

Regardless, I do like WildWalker's idea of requiring Levitation as well. It just feels right, though I have no basis for its support other than that.

Unless you have any indication that there has been a rule change regarding using TK to fly in the past 20+ years, then there hasn't been.

Yea, there has been a change. An entire paragraph was added to Telekinesis stating that fight was impossible with it (alone?), but possible with Super Telekinesis. I'd call that a rule change. This is especially true since the answer in the MOP clearly indicated that flight was possible with ordinary TK. That is no longer the case.

In the MOP text, the objections to flight aren't really based on weight:
" Telekinesis is really meant to throw/hurl small objects around, or used as weapons or shields, or can be used to block someone/something."
Yes, the word "small" objects is in there.
But the other words seem to be more important.
TK is meant to throw/hurl, which is different from flying.
Flight requires fine control, and TK doesn't really offer that.

Fine. The psychic is electing to use his Super TK to hurl the belt (a "small" item) of his body armor in a given direction while maintaining control of it the whole way through... and it just so happens the psychic is attached to the belt and is taken along for the ride (thus requiring an extra amount of lift to move the belt).

Actually, I've got a theory that telek has nothing to do with gravity or any relationship to the earth.
It has to do with the object's relation with the telekineticist.
Since you can't change place in relation to yourself, that's why tk can't be used to move yourself.

That's a very good theory! And if it was used as the basis for precluding flight in the book there would be no cause for this discussion. Too bad it wasn't.

[Killer Cyborg]

Unless you have any indication that there has been a rule change regarding using TK to fly in the past 20+ years, then there hasn't been.

Yea, there has been a change. An entire paragraph was added to Telekinesis stating that fight was impossible with it (alone?), but possible with Super Telekinesis.

No, a sentence was added that states that psychics can't use normal TK to levitate or fly.
A rather unclear sentence, at that.

I'd call that a rule change.

I'd call that an attempt on Palladium's part to clarify things.

This is especially true since the answer in the MOP clearly indicated that flight was possible with ordinary TK. That is no longer the case.

You may well be correct here, but it may well be that the writers of RUE didn't consider what was described in the MOPs as "flight."
BUT yeah, I'll agree that it may well have been changed, and that it does merit its own thread in which to address things.

In the MOP text, the objections to flight aren't really based on weight:
" Telekinesis is really meant to throw/hurl small objects around, or used as weapons or shields, or can be used to block someone/something."
Yes, the word "small" objects is in there.
But the other words seem to be more important.
TK is meant to throw/hurl, which is different from flying.
Flight requires fine control, and TK doesn't really offer that.

Fine. The psychic is electing to use his Super TK to hurl the belt (a "small" item) of his body armor in a given direction while maintaining control of it the whole way through... and it just so happens the psychic is attached to the belt and is taken along for the ride (thus requiring an extra amount of lift to move the belt).

Cool.
Now indulge me a bit, and perform a little experiment.
Go outside, to your back yard, and tie a rope from your belt to the arm of your trebuchet, then pull the lever and launch yourself into the air.
Let me know if what you experience next can accurately be described as "the ability to fly."

[Dead Boy]

And yet...you admit you had not used the search button before posting.

True, I confess to that, at least However, I did search the FAQ Archive, which is where any substantive answers should have ended up.

... yeah, I'll agree that it may well have been changed, and that it does merit its own thread in which to address things. ...

Now indulge me a bit, and perform a little experiment.
Go outside, to your back yard, and tie a rope from your belt to the arm of your trebuchet, then pull the lever and launch yourself into the air.
Let me know if what you experience next can accurately be described as "the ability to fly."

No need. Hong Kong did it for me with the invention of theatrical wire-fu... except in this case the rope overhead is infinitely long and swings as long as the psychics wills it to. Works pretty good, if I say so myself.

[Svartalf]

except the earth has far too much mass and gravity field to be affected, the same reason you can't move a tank with that power.

[The Baron of chaos]

except the earth has far too much mass and gravity field to be affected, the same reason you can't move a tank with that power.

Actually you can, with TK Super and enough ISP. Human spionic would porbably never be able of such feat, but alien itelligence or gods would probably be able to stop a train with telekinesis if the want to.(albeit the cost of ISP make it not worth, but again these creatures generally rely more on magic than psionic, so is anyone guess if they start throwing telekinetically trains around or not)

[Svartalf]

Well, find me a psionic with the ISP to move an earth mass sized object, and there's the guy capable of TK flight without a more specialized ability by my book, too bad that power also causes wobbles and irregularities in the earth's orbit and rotation... not to mention how tempting a prey with that much ISP must be to any psi vampires.

[The Baron of chaos]

Well, find me a psionic with the ISP to move an earth mass sized object, and there's the guy capable of TK flight without a more specialized ability by my book, too bad that power also causes wobbles and irregularities in the earth's orbit and rotation... not to mention how tempting a prey with that much ISP must be to any psi vampires.

EXACTLY...Why in name of heavens one psonic would need to be able to move THAT much to fly using telekinesis super?
Let's analyze how Telekinesis work(I wish I could have avoided to do it again, as it seem a futile exercise but when you've to do thing you are goig to do things).
Telekinesis is the power to move an object by the force fo the mind, no other means is needed except mental energy. there is no direct link between the user and th emoved object, dislike Ectoplasm, and infact telekinesis CAN work through walls, provided you can see the object you are moving, and withing the range of your power. Now the fact that the power has a range could make one think that has a sort of physical link. It does not. The force if directly applied to the object, and the range has probably more to do with energy dispersion and effective transmission than any thing involving physics.
OTHER telekinesis based power do prove that in theory telekinesis SHOULD allow flight.
Levitation, sure(not my favored power, but still better than Mind Bolt. I hate that power. As much as you can hate a psionic power from an RPG book), but Float is another power that suggest that telekinesis can be used to ignore gravity.
Telekinetic Leap is nice, too, albeit I would have liked an option for multiple jump and AIR jump using levitation as combo(could you use TK leaping with levitation? For me yes, since no real physics or muscles are actually used but direct psychi energy.).
You're entire logic for not allowing TK flight, well, won't allow telekinesis to start with.
....
On side note after all this years discussing Psionic I realized how much I grown to HATE Psionic and PCC in Rifts earth.
Odd considering I just love how Nightbane Game handle them.

[glitterboy2098]

... yeah, I'll agree that it may well have been changed, and that it does merit its own thread in which to address things. ...

Now indulge me a bit, and perform a little experiment.
Go outside, to your back yard, and tie a rope from your belt to the arm of your trebuchet, then pull the lever and launch yourself into the air.
Let me know if what you experience next can accurately be described as "the ability to fly."

No need. Hong Kong did it for me with the invention of theatrical wire-fu... except in this case the rope overhead is infinitely long and swings as long as the psychics wills it to. Works pretty good, if I say so myself.

which isn't a valid comparison. "wire fu" only works because the actors wear elaborate harnesses and counter balancing systems, that are all hidden through cinematic tricks and CGI.

if you were to just tie ropes to a belt and try it, at best you'd get the wedgie from hell...at worst you'd likely break your back. most likely your belt would rip right out of your pants. (probably while your in mid air..)

so telekinetically lifting your own belt, or 'bootstrapping" as i refer to it, wouldn't work. you'd have to lift the entire body.

[Killer Cyborg]

... yeah, I'll agree that it may well have been changed, and that it does merit its own thread in which to address things. ...

Now indulge me a bit, and perform a little experiment.
Go outside, to your back yard, and tie a rope from your belt to the arm of your trebuchet, then pull the lever and launch yourself into the air.
Let me know if what you experience next can accurately be described as "the ability to fly."

No need. Hong Kong did it for me with the invention of theatrical wire-fu... except in this case the rope overhead is infinitely long and swings as long as the psychics wills it to. Works pretty good, if I say so myself.

which isn't a valid comparison. "wire fu" only works because the actors wear elaborate harnesses and counter balancing systems, that are all hidden through cinematic tricks and CGI.

if you were to just tie ropes to a belt and try it, at best you'd get the wedgie from hell...at worst you'd likely break your back. most likely your belt would rip right out of your pants. (probably while your in mid air..)

so telekinetically lifting your own belt, or 'bootstrapping" as i refer to it, wouldn't work. you'd have to lift the entire body.

And not just lift, but THROW.
Because that's what TK in Rifts generally does with things, it throws them.
It doesn't fly them over to the target; control is released shortly after acceleration is achieved.
More like a trebuchet, less like carefully controlled and staged wire-fu.

[Svartalf]

Well, find me a psionic with the ISP to move an earth mass sized object, and there's the guy capable of TK flight without a more specialized ability by my book, too bad that power also causes wobbles and irregularities in the earth's orbit and rotation... not to mention how tempting a prey with that much ISP must be to any psi vampires.

EXACTLY...Why in name of heavens one psonic would need to be able to move THAT much to fly using telekinesis super?
Let's analyze how Telekinesis work(I wish I could have avoided to do it again, as it seem a futile exercise but when you've to do thing you are goig to do things).
Telekinesis is the power to move an object by the force fo the mind, no other means is needed except mental energy. there is no direct link between the user and th emoved object, dislike Ectoplasm, and infact telekinesis CAN work through walls, provided you can see the object you are moving, and withing the range of your power. Now the fact that the power has a range could make one think that has a sort of physical link. It does not. The force if directly applied to the object, and the range has probably more to do with energy dispersion and effective transmission than any thing involving physics.
OTHER telekinesis based power do prove that in theory telekinesis SHOULD allow flight.
Levitation, sure(not my favored power, but still better than Mind Bolt. I hate that power. As much as you can hate a psionic power from an RPG book), but Float is another power that suggest that telekinesis can be used to ignore gravity.
Telekinetic Leap is nice, too, albeit I would have liked an option for multiple jump and AIR jump using levitation as combo(could you use TK leaping with levitation? For me yes, since no real physics or muscles are actually used but direct psychi energy.).
You're entire logic for not allowing TK flight, well, won't allow telekinesis to start with.
....
On side note after all this years discussing Psionic I realized how much I grown to HATE Psionic and PCC in Rifts earth.
Odd considering I just love how Nightbane Game handle them.

Because TK is a power that applies to objects OTHER THAN the user. There are instances of psi based flying and levitation, so it's normal to conclude that it normally can't be done, and that the exception would require power use of cataclysmic proportion.THAT POWER cannot cover that particular use, period: it is the sole province of other powers (even incredibly rare and specialized ones)

[Dead Boy]

which isn't a valid comparison. "wire fu" only works because the actors wear elaborate harnesses and counter balancing systems, that are all hidden through cinematic tricks and CGI.

Hey, blame KC for bringing up the lame analogy in the first place. I'm still holding on to the opinion that no round-about way method of TK flight should be necessary to take to the air. I'm just questioning all the unmentioned mechanics behind it.

And not just lift, but THROW.
Because that's what TK in Rifts generally does with things, it throws them.
It doesn't fly them over to the target; control is released shortly after acceleration is achieved.
More like a trebuchet, less like carefully controlled and staged wire-fu.

Not true at at all. Though throwing items is an option, it is far from mandatory. The examples in ordinary telekinesis's writeup also includes remotely controlling melee weapons as though under the control of an invisible hand. Plus there is the line reading "Telekinesis can be used to do more than making objects fly around. ... The range of possibilities is extensive..." (RUE 170) standing in direct contrast to your assertion to the contrary. Ergo, sustained control is not only arguable, but there in canon black and white for all to see.

Up that to Super TK to overcome the supposed weight limitation (as mandated by the rules, even if that limitation doesn't make much sense) and flight is technically possible. The real questions are, how fast, how high, how much ISP is needed, and does more ISP increase the maximum altitude and speed? Obviously I'm not expecting a canon answer, but still...

Because TK is a power that applies to objects OTHER THAN the user.

Not necessarily. No such limitation is stated in any book that I'm aware of, and the line indicating that flight is possible with Super Telekinesis (though not ordinary TK) suggests just the opposite.

[Killer Cyborg]

which isn't a valid comparison. "wire fu" only works because the actors wear elaborate harnesses and counter balancing systems, that are all hidden through cinematic tricks and CGI.

Hey, blame KC for bringing up the lame analogy in the first place. I'm still holding on to the opinion that no round-about way method of TK flight should be necessary to take to the air. I'm just questioning all the unmentioned mechanics behind it.

Hey, you're the one who brought up wire-fu, not me.
I brought up throwing, which is what the book describes.
If you don't like it, take it up with Kevin sometime.

And not just lift, but THROW.
Because that's what TK in Rifts generally does with things, it throws them.
It doesn't fly them over to the target; control is released shortly after acceleration is achieved.
More like a trebuchet, less like carefully controlled and staged wire-fu.

Not true at at all. Though throwing items is an option, it is far from mandatory. The examples in ordinary telekinesis's writeup also includes remotely controlling melee weapons as though under the control of an invisible hand.

Which is also not flying.
Though you could use such an invisible hand to carry yourself along at a really low speed, as per the MOPs.

Plus there is the line reading "Telekinesis can be used to do more than making objects fly around. ... The range of possibilities is extensive..." (RUE 170) standing in direct contrast to your assertion to the contrary. Ergo, sustained control is not only arguable, but there in canon black and white for all to see.

Not sure how you get "sustained control" from that passage.

And if you read the passage, the "more than making objects fly around" is "turning a doorknob" and "flipping a table," which isn't the same as "flying."
And the "making objects fly around" in the example includes hurling objects at people. Again, not exactly fine manipulation or sustained control.

It goes on to list:
-open doors
-flick switches
-press buttons
-turn knobs and dials
-open windows
-make a rocking chair rock

Again, all brief bursts of kinetic energy, the equivalent of a push, slap, or flick.

"Objects thrown would be equivalent to objects thrown by physical hand."
No more control than any other thrown object.

Up that to Super TK to overcome the supposed weight limitation (as mandated by the rules, even if that limitation doesn't make much sense) and flight is technically possible.

What weight limitations?
You can pick yourself up and hurl yourself at something using normal TK; there's no weight limit.

The real questions are, how fast, how high, how much ISP is needed, and does more ISP increase the maximum altitude and speed? Obviously I'm not expecting a canon answer, but still...

You got the answer in the MOPs, that's as much canon as we have.

[Kalidor]

I don't know where you guys are getting this "in relation to the Earth" stuff from. You can move stuff with your mind! What does 'being planted firmly on the ground" have to do with any of it?

I'll answer that for you --- nothing.


If I can pick up and move a car (or whatever someone with Super Telekensis can move) then I can sure as heck pick up and move myself. You don't have to be 'relative' to anything. The worst penalty I can think of for someone who's using TK to fly would be that they have to concentrate to do it so in order to remain in flight during a combat round, that would have to count as their attack/action for that round as they maintain the flight (And spend the ISP). So it's really only good for travel in that sense.

[The Baron of chaos]

Because TK is a power that applies to objects OTHER THAN the user. There are instances of psi based flying and levitation, so it's normal to conclude that it normally can't be done, and that the exception would require power use of cataclysmic proportion.THAT POWER cannot cover that particular use, period: it is the sole province of other powers (even incredibly rare and specialized ones)

I've not much time, but i've to ask you. Where do you get that detail of telekinesis applied only to other object and not on the user? The textual description of the power, at best, suggest quite the opposite.

[Dead Boy]

Hey, you're the one who brought up wire-fu, not me.

Really now?

Now indulge me a bit, and perform a little experiment.
Go outside, to your back yard, and tie a rope from your belt to the arm of your trebuchet, then pull the lever and launch yourself into the air.
Let me know if what you experience next can accurately be described as "the ability to fly."

... hence the wire-fu direction things went in.

Asked... answered... let's not relive it, and leave it in the past where it belongs. Both the initial and rebuttal analogies were lame. No need to shame ourselves by needlessly rehashing something that never mattered in the first place.

Which is also not flying.
Though you could use such an invisible hand to carry yourself along at a really low speed, as per the MOPs.

(A) RUE uses the word "fly". Learn it. Love it. Live it.
(B) MOP is obsolete and anything it said is null and void. It addressed the issue of using ordinary telekinesis to fly; that is no longer possible with that particular power. Telekinetic flight seems to only be possible with Super TK (barring any creative uses of Levitate and something else for propulsion, and a generous GM). And as before when it was possible with ordinary telekinesis, the particulars behind that application are known only to Kev at this juncture.

Not sure how you get "sustained control" from that passage... No more control than any other thrown object.

"Telekinesis moves, lifts, and throws physical objects with the power of the mind." (RUE 170)

You're fixating too much on the "throws" part and ignoring "moves" and "lifts", both of which have the element of sustained control.

What weight limitations?
You can pick yourself up and hurl yourself at something using normal TK; there's no weight limit.

Ordinary "Telekinesis does not allow psychics to levitate themselves or fly, due to the weight limitation (see Super Telekinesis)." (RUE 170)

Their rule, not mine. Maybe it's the insufficiency of the base amount allowed with a nominal expenditure of ISP. After all, with Super TK it only takes two increments (10 ISP base X2) to overcome an average character's weight including gear. With ordinary TK two increments ("small" to "medium" expending 8 ISP) only grants 20 lbs of lift. In fact for the same 20 ISP (not a major effort) while Super will generate 200 lbs of lift, ordinary TK only generates 140 lbs.

Hell, I don't know. Like I said, it's there arbitrary limitation, not mine.

The real questions are, how fast, how high, how much ISP is needed, and does more ISP increase the maximum altitude and speed? Obviously I'm not expecting a canon answer, but still...

You got the answer in the MOPs, that's as much canon as we have.

Obsolete, outdated, and outright contradicted by new material. Ergo, any weight of canon it may have once borne has since evaporated.

[Killer Cyborg]

Hey, you're the one who brought up wire-fu, not me.

Really now?

Yup.

Now indulge me a bit, and perform a little experiment.
Go outside, to your back yard, and tie a rope from your belt to the arm of your trebuchet, then pull the lever and launch yourself into the air.
Let me know if what you experience next can accurately be described as "the ability to fly."

... hence the wire-fu direction things went in.

I remember the trebuchet bit I mentioned.
(Have you gotten around to doing it yet?)

I also remembered that in response to it, YOU brought up wire-fu, which isn't anywhere near the same thing.
Very few people used wire-fu to siege medieval castles.
I'm unaware of any wire-fu techniques that can knock down a brick wall.
And there's the control issues we've discussed.

Survey says.... Not the same thing.

Both the initial and rebuttal analogies were lame. No need to shame ourselves by needlessly rehashing something that never mattered in the first place.

No, the initial analogy is just fine
You're talking about taking a power used to hurl objects at high velocity with no control after the original accelleration, with enough force to shatter walls, and using it to "fly."
And you talked about doing this by hurling your belt.

The analogy there is quite appropriate.
The results would be the same: either your belt would break, or you'd suffer some spinal damage as you got yanked off your feet and catapulted in the direction you were hurling yourself.

Which is also not flying.
Though you could use such an invisible hand to carry yourself along at a really low speed, as per the MOPs.

(A) RUE uses the word "fly". Learn it. Love it. Live it.

MiO uses the word "fly" quite a bit too.
Turns out, it doesn't always mean the same thing.

When an invisible force throws things around a room, you might describe the things as "flying around," but that's not the same as the literal usage that you're looking for.

(B) MOP is obsolete and anything it said is null and void. It addressed the issue of using ordinary telekinesis to fly; that is no longer possible with that particular power.

Precedent.
It showed that you could use the power to lift and carry yourself to an extent, and what that very limited extent entailed.
It mentions as a reason that TK is meant to throw or hurl objects around, or to move them more slowly over short distances, not to pick people up and move them rapidly over long distances.
That reason stands, particularly as it jibes with RUE's description of the TK powers.

Telekinetic flight seems to only be possible with Super TK (barring any creative uses of Levitate and something else for propulsion, and a generous GM).

Only seems to seem that way to you.
For the rest of us, it just looks like you're taking an odd sentence and running it out into left field.

Not sure how you get "sustained control" from that passage... No more control than any other thrown object.

"Telekinesis moves, lifts, and throws physical objects with the power of the mind." (RUE 170)

You're fixating too much on the "throws" part and ignoring "moves" and "lifts", both of which have the element of sustained control.

I'm not ignoring them: that's what the MOPs were talking about. Moving and lifting can be done with control, and with a lot less speed than with throwing/hurling. That's what gets you the speed of 6 (or whatever) that the MOPs talk about.

Now read the rest of that sentence you quoted, and the one after:
"... so it may be used to hurl a victim into something as a slam attack, but NOT as a crushing or thrusting attack in and of itself. Objects thrown would be equivalent to objects thrown by a physical hand."

Also, pay attention to the part that you quoted:
"Telekinesis moves, lifts, and throws..."
Not "OR throws."
The way it's phrased, deliberately or not, the throwing is a mandatory part of a sequence.

What weight limitations?
You can pick yourself up and hurl yourself at something using normal TK; there's no weight limit.

Ordinary "Telekinesis does not allow psychics to levitate themselves or fly, due to the weight limitation (see Super Telekinesis)." (RUE 170)

Their rule, not mine.

Yup.
And again I as, "what weight limitation?"
Until we know that, we can't really know what they're trying to say there.

Maybe it's the insufficiency of the base amount allowed with a nominal expenditure of ISP. After all, with Super TK it only takes two increments (10 ISP base X2) to overcome an average character's weight including gear. With ordinary TK two increments ("small" to "medium" expending 8 ISP) only grants 20 lbs of lift. In fact for the same 20 ISP (not a major effort) while Super will generate 200 lbs of lift, ordinary TK only generates 140 lbs.

Which makes no difference for somebody who weighs less than 140 lbs.
And the only difference it would make for others would be that they have to expend some more ISP in order to lift their body weight.
So again, what weight limitations?

Hell, I don't know. Like I said, it's there arbitrary limitation, not mine.

Well, it's what you're hinging your hypothesis on, so we'd better figure it out if we want to accomplish anything meaningful.
Otherwise we literally don't know what we're talking about when we try to say what the sentence means.

The real questions are, how fast, how high, how much ISP is needed, and does more ISP increase the maximum altitude and speed? Obviously I'm not expecting a canon answer, but still...

You got the answer in the MOPs, that's as much canon as we have.

Obsolete, outdated, and outright contradicted by new material. Ergo, any weight of canon it may have once borne has since evaporated.

It's not obsolete, because it has info that isn't repeated or replaced.
The only contradiction from new material is that the "yeah, I guess you could kinda limp along in the air" has turned into "nah, nevermind."
This matters a lot when it comes to the question of "can you use TK to fly?" in that the old information has been changed.
But it doesn't matter so much when it comes to "Can you use Super TK to fly?"
And it lets us know what the writers' minds were at one point in time on the subject, which helps us try to interpret other texts to discern intention and meaning.

If you really want to find something saying that Super TK can let you fly, so far it seems like the best bet would be to sift through all the old HU books, as hinted by the MOP passage.

[Dead Boy]

No, the initial analogy is just fine

Nope. It wallows in lameness. LET IT DROP!!!

(B) MOP is obsolete and anything it said is null and void. It addressed the issue of using ordinary telekinesis to fly; that is no longer possible with that particular power.

Precedent.
It showed that you could use the power to lift and carry yourself to an extent, and what that very limited extent entailed.
It mentions as a reason that TK is meant to throw or hurl objects around, or to move them more slowly over short distances, not to pick people up and move them rapidly over long distances.
That reason stands, particularly as it jibes with RUE's description of the TK powers.

Read it again, because you are still too fixated on the hurling aspect.

Okay, let's hit this from a different angle. A psychic unsheathes a vibro sword and uses his power of TK to hurl it at an opponent. Once out there the psychic then mentally commands the sword to move about and attack those in the area. The hovering weapon, acting as though wielded by an invisible hand, does not move and then drop, but instead in a fluid motion, moving form one opponent to the next and chasing down anyone who tries to flee. According to the power's description, this is perfectly permissible and requires continuous, sustained control over the object. Obviously, throwing is not the only trick one can do with TK, nor is it only usable in short bursts.

That is what was possible as of 1990 with the printing of the RMB... and yes, the guidance provided by the obscure and hardly known MOP could have been applied to it at that point in time.

Fast forward to 2005 and the power of telekinesis's description changed. A supplemental paragraph was intentionally added, revoking the ability to fly with ordinary telekinesis (as indicated in MOP... which hardly anybody knew even existed at that point). The new additional paragraph points directly to Super Telekinesis now. Note that there is a complete lack of any further notation saying "see further guidance in MOP". That's because MOP has no relevance... at least not in the areas that have been revised such as this.

As further proof that MOP has no place in the current rules, look at RUE pgs 371-375. There you will find a listing of EVERY book still relevant to the game. I see every book ever published in the past 20 years, including the RGMG. And if the antiquated MOP Q&A held any weight at all, at the very least it would have found its way as a cut & paste into the RGMG. But no, it doesn't even have that.

Your so called President no longer exists. It's the 18th Amendment, there only for historical reference but on longer in effect.

Telekinetic flight seems to only be possible with Super TK (barring any creative uses of Levitate and something else for propulsion, and a generous GM).

Only seems to seem that way to you.
For the rest of us, it just looks like you're taking an odd sentence and running it out into left field.

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuure. I'm the only person who read that passage and said, "Gee, that looks like Super TK lets you fly."

... that's what the MOPs were talking about. Moving and lifting can be done with control, and with a lot less speed than with throwing/hurling. That's what gets you the speed of 6 (or whatever) that the MOPs talk about.

Not that it matters because MOP is a defunct rag of bathroom fare reading, but it doesn't say that. The "speed of 6" element only applies (well, applied, since MOP is obsolete) to TK flight, not the speed objects could be moved around. That speed has never been divulged in any Palladium publication that I'm aware of.

Now read the rest of that sentence you quoted, and the one after:
"... so it may be used to hurl a victim into something as a slam attack, but NOT as a crushing or thrusting attack in and of itself. Objects thrown would be equivalent to objects thrown by a physical hand."

So? All that says is you can't use TK like an energy blast or do the Darth Vader choke hold. And though hurling is an option, it's not the only thing you can do with the power.

Also, pay attention to the part that you quoted:
"Telekinesis moves, lifts, and throws..."
Not "OR throws."
The way it's phrased, deliberately or not, the throwing is a mandatory part of a sequence.

So If I can walk, talk, and chew bubble gum at the same time, I can't walk or talk unless I'm chewing bubble gum? Gee, I better stock up on the ol' Dentyne. Nah! That's silly. I can walk, I can talk, I can chew bubble gum, or do any combination there of as I choose. Same applies here with TK. The psychic can move, lift, and throw object, but in no way is throwing a prerequisite to enable the other two activities.

I think you misplaced a tilde in that derivation.

And again I as[k], "what weight limitation?"
Until we know that, we can't really know what they're trying to say there.

There's a lot that went unsaid. Blame the writer, not me.

Well, it's what you're hinging your hypothesis on, so we'd better figure it out if we want to accomplish anything meaningful.
Otherwise we literally don't know what we're talking about when we try to say what the sentence means.

Firstly, its not a hypothesis of mine. It's a un-elaborated on rule change... and as Barron pointed out, I'm far from the first one to notice it; only the most recent, apparently. Secondly, we know what the sentence means. It means Super TK allows psychics to fly; we just don't know any of the surrounding details to that end.

If you really want to find something saying that Super TK can let you fly, so far it seems like the best bet would be to sift through all the old HU books, as hinted by the MOP passage.

Did that with the HU2 book. Nada. Closest thing I see is "Flight: Wingless" in the minor powers, and it's aggravatingly sparse on text. And I don't think "Sonic Flight" is what they had in mind either. And while I could get Heroes Unlimited 1st edition off Drive Thru RPG, at this time I'd rather not drop the $12.49 needed to download a copy just to see if it even does have further elaboration (which it might not!).

[Killer Cyborg]

No, the initial analogy is just fine

Nope. It wallows in lameness. LET IT DROP!!!

Why?
You haven't actually come up with anything refuting the point it made.
Things don't become irrelevant just because you personally don't like them.

(B) MOP is obsolete and anything it said is null and void. It addressed the issue of using ordinary telekinesis to fly; that is no longer possible with that particular power.

Precedent.
It showed that you could use the power to lift and carry yourself to an extent, and what that very limited extent entailed.
It mentions as a reason that TK is meant to throw or hurl objects around, or to move them more slowly over short distances, not to pick people up and move them rapidly over long distances.
That reason stands, particularly as it jibes with RUE's description of the TK powers.

Read it again, because you are still too fixated on the hurling aspect.

I've read it enough times.
I'm focused on the hurling aspect because this is they closest thing the power does to being able to make things "fly," and it's one of the reasons given for TK not being able to make people fly.

Okay, let's hit this from a different angle. A psychic unsheathes a vibro sword and uses his power of TK to hurl it at an opponent. Once out there the psychic then mentally commands the sword to move about and attack those in the area. The hovering weapon, acting as though wielded by an invisible hand, does not move and then drop, but instead in a fluid motion, moving form one opponent to the next and chasing down anyone who tries to flee. According to the power's description, this is perfectly permissible and requires continuous, sustained control over the object.

What part of the text do you think permits hurled objects not hitting the ground afterward?
What part of the text do you think permits TK controlled objects to fly faster than a person can run?

Fast forward to 2005 and the power of telekinesis's description changed. A supplemental paragraph was intentionally added, revoking the ability to fly with ordinary telekinesis (as indicated in MOP... which hardly anybody knew even existed at that point). The new additional paragraph points directly to Super Telekinesis now. Note that there is a complete lack of any further notation saying "see further guidance in MOP". That's because MOP has no relevance... at least not in the areas that have been revised such as this.

You're seriously claiming that the only reason why Palladium might fail to refer back to their previous rulings on things is because they've deliberately considered the idea and rejected it due to the previous ruling being no longer valid?

As further proof that MOP has no place in the current rules, look at RUE pgs 371-375. There you will find a listing of EVERY book still relevant to the game. I see every book ever published in the past 20 years, including the RGMG. And if the antiquated MOP Q&A held any weight at all, at the very least it would have found its way as a cut & paste into the RGMG. But no, it doesn't even have that.

What part of RUE says that those are the only books relevant to Rifts?

Your so called President no longer exists.

It does; I'm looking at it.
Whether or not the ruling has been changed doesn't affect the information that's in print.

Telekinetic flight seems to only be possible with Super TK (barring any creative uses of Levitate and something else for propulsion, and a generous GM).

Only seems to seem that way to you.
For the rest of us, it just looks like you're taking an odd sentence and running it out into left field.

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuure. I'm the only person who read that passage and said, "Gee, that looks like Super TK lets you fly."

Ya got me.
There's probably one or two other people in the world who share your view, and they're just not speaking up here.
I guess that proves your case.

... that's what the MOPs were talking about. Moving and lifting can be done with control, and with a lot less speed than with throwing/hurling. That's what gets you the speed of 6 (or whatever) that the MOPs talk about.

Not that it matters because MOP is a defunct rag of bathroom fare reading,

Why does it seem that your main hatred of the MOPs stems from you not having them?

but it doesn't say that. The "speed of 6" element only applies (well, applied, since MOP is obsolete) to TK flight, not the speed objects could be moved around. That speed has never been divulged in any Palladium publication that I'm aware of.

Agreed.
It was only hinted at indirectly via the speed listed in the MOPs.
Which means that's the most solid thing we have to go on so far.

Now read the rest of that sentence you quoted, and the one after:
"... so it may be used to hurl a victim into something as a slam attack, but NOT as a crushing or thrusting attack in and of itself. Objects thrown would be equivalent to objects thrown by a physical hand."

So? All that says is you can't use TK like an energy blast or do the Darth Vader choke hold. And though hurling is an option, it's not the only thing you can do with the power.

What it says is that the passage you cited as evidence that TK can be used for non-hurling stuff comes from a sentence describing its hurling ability.

You only posted "Telekinesis moves, lifts, and throws physical objects with the power of the mind.", when the full sentence is:

"Telekinesis moves, lifts, and throws physical objects with the power of the mind so it may be used to hurl a victim into something as a slam attack, but NOT as a crushing or thrusting attack in and of itself. Objects thrown would be equivalent to objects thrown by a physical hand."

It's not talking about separate features of TK, it's talking about separate parts of throwing.
So claiming that it means that TK can do more than throw is disingenuous.

Also, pay attention to the part that you quoted:
"Telekinesis moves, lifts, and throws..."
Not "OR throws."
The way it's phrased, deliberately or not, the throwing is a mandatory part of a sequence.

So If I can walk, talk, and chew bubble gum at the same time, I can't walk or talk unless I'm chewing bubble gum?

Not really the issue.
The issue is that what they were doing was listing parts of the overall action of throwing, not listing throwing along with some other things that the power can do.

Say we were examining a sentence that said, "Bob can step with his left foot, step with his right foot, and walk across the room."
Stepping with either foot isn't mutually exclusive with walking across the room, but they're not exactly actions in their own right either, they're part of the overall action of walking.
How well Bob can step in other contexts isn't covered in the sentence.
It doesn't tell us if Bob can skip, or jump, or walk backward, or hop on one foot.

Just like the passage you cite doesn't say that TK can make objects or people fly.
It can lift things in the context of throwing (and in other contexts, as is described elsewhere).
It can move things in the context of throwing (something we already know from the definition of "throw"- it includes movement).
So the passage doesn't say anything that we don't already know; it adds nothing to the conversation.

And again I as[k], "what weight limitation?"
Until we know that, we can't really know what they're trying to say there.

There's a lot that went unsaid. Blame the writer, not me.

I do.
But blaming the writers for being vague doesn't mean that your personal random stab in the dark about what the writer was trying to say is necessarily true.
So if you want to support your case that the words carry the meaning that you believe, you'll have to come up with something better than "the writers were vague."

Well, it's what you're hinging your hypothesis on, so we'd better figure it out if we want to accomplish anything meaningful.
Otherwise we literally don't know what we're talking about when we try to say what the sentence means.

Firstly, its not a hypothesis of mine. It's a un-elaborated on rule change... and as Barron pointed out, I'm far from the first one to notice it; only the most recent, apparently. Secondly, we know what the sentence means. It means Super TK allows psychics to fly; we just don't know any of the surrounding details to that end.

You think that it means that Super TK allows psychics to fly.
That's your hypothesis.
Obviously, not everybody agrees with you, and so far you provided nothing in the ways of support for this hypothesis.

If you really want to find something saying that Super TK can let you fly, so far it seems like the best bet would be to sift through all the old HU books, as hinted by the MOP passage.

Did that with the HU2 book.
Nada. Closest thing I see is "Flight: Wingless" in the minor powers, and it's aggravatingly sparse on text. And I don't think "Sonic Flight" is what they had in mind either. And while I could get Heroes Unlimited 1st edition off Drive Thru RPG, at this time I'd rather not drop the $12.49 needed to download a copy just to see if it even does have further elaboration (which it might not!).

Me either; which is why we're not going to get to the bottom of this today, not unless somebody else quotes the relevant text from that page for us.
That is, IF there's anything more than Baron's discovery that the power mentions being able to move the psychic.

[Kalidor]

What part of the text do you think permits TK controlled objects to fly faster than a person can run?

Why does it have to be faster?

[The Baron of chaos]

What part of the text do you think permits TK controlled objects to fly faster than a person can run?

Why does it have to be faster?

Why does not have to be, considering that some of the obeject you can move(not exactly throw) can ram at considerable speed, and I'm talking about those large heavy object you move with TK super, as one can notice no one had brought TK acceleration attack, that can LAUNCH OBJECTS AT MACH SPEED, but is limited to small ones, so Is completely out of question(An unanswered question remain if can be used in combo with hydrokinesis, accelerating water bubble at mach speed. I remeber seeing it in some manga and anime. Not talking about avatar.)

[Dead Boy]

*Beats this argument to death with a wooden mallet*

My apologies. Once more things have turned in to a Dead Boy vs Killer Cyborg match... and both of us suffer from the malady of cranial-swine disease. And unfortunately when two such case come together, the overall effects is an exponential increase in the display of symptomatic behavior.

What part of the text do you think permits TK controlled objects to fly faster than a person can run?

Why does it have to be faster?

It doesn't. We don't really know either way. That's part of the problem! The Psi-Slayer power of Wind Walk allows the psi to move at one third his speed. Maybe that's how telekinetic flight with Super TK is supposed to work... maybe not. Further official elaboration is needed here.

No, the initial analogy is just fine

Nope. It wallows in lameness. LET IT DROP!!!

Why?
You haven't actually come up with anything refuting the point it made.

It's lame because it follows your (and yours alone) assumption that telekinesis only functions in bursts of force with no sustained control, when in fact there is not a bit of evidence to substantiate that claim. That's why. The reason why I rebutted with the (albeit lame) "wire-fu" retort was because that imparts greater sustained control.

Things don't become irrelevant just because you personally don't like them.

I said antiquated and obsolete, not irrelevant.

Read it again, because you are still too fixated on the hurling aspect.

I've read it enough times.
I'm focused on the hurling aspect because this is they closest thing the power does to being able to make things "fly," and it's one of the reasons given for TK not being able to make people fly.

Incorrect. The only stated reason why ordinary TK doesn't allow flight is due to the weight limitation. Though the limitation is not expanded on beyond that, that is the official Palladium reason.

And besides which, according to you, the 20+ year old MOP citing takes precedence over the the newer 6 year old RUE rule-addition. You really need to decide which way you're going to argue for consistency's sake. Is TK Flight possible a la MOP, or is it not possible hence RUE? Pick one and we can discuss it from there.

Okay, let's hit this from a different angle. A psychic unsheathes a vibro sword and uses his power of TK to hurl it at an opponent. Once out there the psychic then mentally commands the sword to move about and attack those in the area. The hovering weapon, acting as though wielded by an invisible hand, does not move and then drop, but instead in a fluid motion, moving form one opponent to the next and chasing down anyone who tries to flee. According to the power's description, this is perfectly permissible and requires continuous, sustained control over the object.

What part of the text do you think permits hurled objects not hitting the ground afterward?

"The character can make an object hop, fall, roll, rise into the air, suspender it there (hover) or make it fly across the room." (RUE 170) Note the part about suspending object in the air on a sustained basis.

"One attack with Telekinesis by hurling an object as if thrown or causing it to buzz about a room..." (RUE 170) Objects that "buzz about" do not fall to the ground every three seconds. That is a sustained, controlled flight with multiple vector changes.

If you need a refresher on the popular concept of how telekinesis works, pop The Empire Strikes Back into the ol' DVD player (the new BluRay versions just came out if that's your preferred format). Lots of great examples in that movie, from throwing, to lifting, to moving. No, no flying characters, but I guess the jedi prefer TK Leap (it's a style thing for them).

That snarky comment said, there is nothing in the power's description that even implies that the psychic must release the object at the end of his melee action. In fact, in addition to the above two quotes to the contrary, the two-minute per level power duration supports a continuation of effect.

What part of the text do you think permits TK controlled objects to fly faster than a person can run?

Never said it did. And that's really a subjective thing given the varying Speed attributes from one character to another... plus there is no official guidance in this area.

As for how fast the object moves, that can be inferred from the damage inflicted by the flung objects. An object weighing as little as 1.5 lbs can inflict 1D6SDC. That damage is equivalent to the damage of a .22LR bullet, which has 105 ft.-lbs of energy. In order for a 1.5 lb (10,500 grain) object to hit the the same amount of force, it must be traveling at 67.116 feet per second.

So there you have it. A reasonable basis for the determination of how fast an object can be moved using telekinesis: 67.116 feet per second. (Math is our friend )

You're seriously claiming that the only reason why Palladium might fail to refer back to their previous rulings on things is because they've deliberately considered the idea and rejected it due to the previous ruling being no longer valid?

Wouldn't be the first time. Remember when the whole subject of bursts was easy to look up? Just because it's still in the older books doesn't mean they still apply to RUE material.

As further proof that MOP has no place in the current rules, look at RUE pgs 371-375.

What part of RUE says that those are the only books relevant to Rifts?

What part of Super TK says flight is not possible?

Your so called President no longer exists.

It does; I'm looking at it.
Whether or not the ruling has been changed doesn't affect the information that's in print.

And I'm looking at the 18th Amendment. Doesn't mean Eliot Ness is going to be kicking down my door for the beer in my fridge.

Not that it matters because MOP is a defunct rag of bathroom fare reading,

Why does it seem that your main hatred of the MOPs stems from you not having them?

You bandy about belittling words like "hypothesis", I throw around my own in turn.

And for the record, I bought MOP from DriveThruRPG.com the moment it came up days ago so I could read it with my own two eyes.

What it says is that the passage you cited as evidence that TK can be used for non-hurling stuff comes from a sentence describing its hurling ability.

"Telekinesis moves, lifts, and throws physical objects with the power of the mind so it may be used to hurl a victim into something as a slam attack, but NOT as a crushing or thrusting attack in and of itself. Objects thrown would be equivalent to objects thrown by a physical hand."

It's not talking about separate features of TK, it's talking about separate parts of throwing.
So claiming that it means that TK can do more than throw is disingenuous.

Again you fixate on only one element when the part you emphasize is only part of the picture. Yes, you can hurl object. You can also levitate objects over a period of time, or roll a ball down the road at sustained pace out to the full range of the power. Claiming that hurling objects is the limit of the power when it says in black and white "Telekinesis can be used to do more than make objects fly around. ... The range of possibilities is extensive..." (RUE 170) is outright myopic.

"Telekinesis moves, lifts, and throws..."
Not "OR throws."
The way it's phrased, deliberately or not, the throwing is a mandatory part of a sequence.

So If I can walk, talk, and chew bubble gum at the same time, I can't walk or talk unless I'm chewing bubble gum?

The issue is that what they were doing was listing parts of the overall action of throwing, not listing throwing along with some other things that the power can do.
Say we were examining a sentence that said, "Bob can step with his left foot, step with his right foot, and walk across the room."
Stepping with either foot isn't mutually exclusive with walking across the room, but they're not exactly actions in their own right either, they're part of the overall action of walking.

The problem is your evidence to support this assertion is rather contrived... Dare I say it, out right manufactured. Word-play is not evidence; it's only word-play for the sake of obfuscating the issue. What is written is not a sequence, but a list of individual options that can be initiated and executed independent of each other.

The psychic can telekinetically move an object. He can lift something. He can hurl something. These are all individual options that are not contingent on each other, nor are they limited to bursts of effort.

[Killer Cyborg]

What part of the text do you think permits TK controlled objects to fly faster than a person can run?

Why does it have to be faster?

Because in order to "chase down anyone who tries to flee," you have to move faster than them.
Otherwise it would be "chase after them as they get away."

[Killer Cyborg]

It's lame because it follows your (and yours alone) assumption that telekinesis only functions in bursts of force with no sustained control, when in fact there is not a bit of evidence to substantiate that claim.

No, it follows my assumption that telekinesis can only make things "fly" through bursts of force with no sustained control, and I have this assumption because of how the books describe things.
None of the stuff that the books describe TK doing include the kind of power and control that you'd need in order to make somebody actually fly.
You can use TK to whack somebody with a club (control), or you can use it to hurl a piano at them (power), but there's no examples in the books of both at the same time.
Notice that the damage listing for the powers is all for hurled objects, not for using them as melee weapons.

The MOPs list as one of the reasons why TK can't be used for flight the fact that the power is designed to throw things.

There's quite a bit of evidence on the side of my claim, which is why I both made the claim in the first place, and why I keep bringing up the evidence.

Things don't become irrelevant just because you personally don't like them.

I said antiquated and obsolete, not irrelevant.

Fair enough.

Read it again, because you are still too fixated on the hurling aspect.

I've read it enough times.
I'm focused on the hurling aspect because this is they closest thing the power does to being able to make things "fly," and it's one of the reasons given for TK not being able to make people fly.

Incorrect. The only stated reason why ordinary TK doesn't allow flight is due to the weight limitation.[/quote]

That is one reason.

Again, "Telekinesis is really meant to throw/hurl small objects around, or used as weapons or shields, or can be used to block someone/something."

You seem to be taking that sentence and ignoring everything except the word "small," when the words "throw/hurl" are at least as important.
The official response given as to why TK can't let you fly is that it is really meant to throw/hurl things, or use melee weapons/shields, or to directly block attacks.... not to let people fly.

And besides which, according to you, the 20+ year old MOP citing takes precedence over the the newer 6 year old RUE rule-addition.

I'm not taking the MOP over RUE at all.
RUE just doesn't add anything new to the picture, except to restrict things even tighter than they were before, eliminating the only flight capabilities that TK ever had.

You really need to decide which way you're going to argue for consistency's sake. Is TK Flight possible a la MOP, or is it not possible hence RUE? Pick one and we can discuss it from there.

It once was, now it's not.
As I've said before.

Okay, let's hit this from a different angle. A psychic unsheathes a vibro sword and uses his power of TK to hurl it at an opponent. Once out there the psychic then mentally commands the sword to move about and attack those in the area. The hovering weapon, acting as though wielded by an invisible hand, does not move and then drop, but instead in a fluid motion, moving form one opponent to the next and chasing down anyone who tries to flee. According to the power's description, this is perfectly permissible and requires continuous, sustained control over the object.

What part of the text do you think permits hurled objects not hitting the ground afterward?

"The character can make an object hop, fall, roll, rise into the air, suspender it there (hover) or make it fly across the room." (RUE 170) Note the part about suspending object in the air on a sustained basis.

Using an attack to suspend something in the air is not the same as using an attack to hurl an object at a person, then keep the object from hitting the ground.
The latter part is a separate action, which would require a separate attack, just like throwing something at somebody in front of you, then catching the object before it falls to the ground.
And the way the rules work, you can't really make that second attack until the opponent has gotten a chance to react and/or counter-attack.

So the way it would work by the rule is:
-You attack by hurling an object. The opponent gets to defend. It either hits him or not. Either way, the object hits the ground.
-The opponent gets an action/attack.
-Your next attack/action comes up, and you use that action to make the object hover.

Remember, throwing things with TK works the same as throwing them with your hands. There are no provisions for retaining control of the object after it has struck.

"One attack with Telekinesis by hurling an object as if thrown or causing it to buzz about a room..." (RUE 170) Objects that "buzz about" do not fall to the ground every three seconds. That is a sustained, controlled flight with multiple vector changes.

Full sentence:
"One can attack with telekinesis by hurling an object as if thrown or causing it to buzz about a room, swinging and hitting like a club controlled by an invisible hand."
The last bit of the sentence shows you the context for the part you quoted: it's moving the object from point a to point be in order to make melee attacks with it.
The club attacks one person, then floats relatively slowly over to the the next person, then attacks them, then floats to the next.
Yes, it's control. But there's no real power with the blows.
Which is what is described in the MOPs version of flying that TK can provide: you can float slowly from one place to another, but there's no real zip if you want to retain control.

there is nothing in the power's description that even implies that the psychic must release the object at the end of his melee action. In fact, in addition to the above two quotes to the contrary, the two-minute per level power duration supports a continuation of effect.

You don't have to release the object at the end of a melee action.
But you do have to release an object in order to hurl/throw it, by definition.

What part of the text do you think permits TK controlled objects to fly faster than a person can run?

Never said it did.

You said:
"...moving form one opponent to the next and chasing down anyone who tries to flee."

How can you chase somebody down if you don't move faster than they do?
Just wait until they stop to rest?

And that's really a subjective thing given the varying Speed attributes from one character to another... plus there is no official guidance in this area.

Agreed; there's no reason to assume that a TK wielded object can chase somebody down.

(Math is our friend )

Not for this kind of stuff in the context of Palladium.
It's pretty clear that they don't take that kind of think into account.

You're seriously claiming that the only reason why Palladium might fail to refer back to their previous rulings on things is because they've deliberately considered the idea and rejected it due to the previous ruling being no longer valid?

Wouldn't be the first time.

Are you equating "wouldn't be the first time" with "the only possible reason?""

As further proof that MOP has no place in the current rules, look at RUE pgs 371-375.

What part of RUE says that those are the only books relevant to Rifts?

What part of Super TK says flight is not possible?

That doesn't actually answer my question, so I'll take it as admission that you were misrepresenting things in your post.

Moving on, I'll answer your question:

Nothing in the Super TK description states that flight is not possible.
Just like nothing in the Pyrokinesis description states that flight is not possible.
Just like nothing in the Psychosomatic Disease description states that flight is not possible.
Power is granted by permission, not by lack of denial.

So the better question would be, "What part of Super TK says that flight IS possible?"
The answer, again, is "nothing."

All we've got to go on to support the notion that Super TK allows flight is:
-The TK description's mention of weight and reference to Super TK
-The Super TK's description mentioning increased weight
-A mention in HUr that Super TK can move objects or the psychic.

It's not nothing, but it's definitely not conclusive in any way. All we have is a few vaguely worded phrases in a couple of books, one of which is as obsolete as the MOPs.

Your so called President no longer exists.

It does; I'm looking at it.
Whether or not the ruling has been changed doesn't affect the information that's in print.

And I'm looking at the 18th Amendment. Doesn't mean Eliot Ness is going to be kicking down my door for the beer in my fridge.

Nobody's saying that the rule still applies, only that it can still be referred to when trying to determine the mindset of the writers.
The intent of TK, as pointed out in the MOPs is NOT to let people fly.
Unless this has been demonstrably changed, then whether or not the limited flight described in the MOPs still exists, the purpose of the power remains the same, and it still does not include flight.

What it says is that the passage you cited as evidence that TK can be used for non-hurling stuff comes from a sentence describing its hurling ability.

"Telekinesis moves, lifts, and throws physical objects with the power of the mind so it may be used to hurl a victim into something as a slam attack, but NOT as a crushing or thrusting attack in and of itself. Objects thrown would be equivalent to objects thrown by a physical hand."

It's not talking about separate features of TK, it's talking about separate parts of throwing.
So claiming that it means that TK can do more than throw is disingenuous.

Again you fixate on only one element when the part you emphasize is only part of the picture.

I'm only emphasizing the parts here that negate your claims about the passage you quoted.
Because that's my only point in this part- the passage you cited does not support what you claim.

Yes, you can hurl object. You can also levitate objects over a period of time, or roll a ball down the road at sustained pace out to the full range of the power.

Yes.
Of course, levitation isn't flight, and rolling a ball down a road isn't flight, so I don't get why you think these parts are relevant.
Also, I don't recall the part saying that you could roll a ball at a sustained pace.

Claiming that hurling objects is the limit of the power when it says in black and white "Telekinesis can be used to do more than make objects fly around. ... The range of possibilities is extensive..." (RUE 170) is outright myopic.

Which is likely why I've never made that claim.

What is written is not a sequence, but a list of individual options that can be initiated and executed independent of each other.

I've shown the full sentence, and explained how it works according to the rules of the English language.
If you want to come up with an opposing argument, by all means do so.
But just saying "nuh-uh" doesn't constitute an argument.
From the complete sentence, it's quite clear that they're all steps in the process of throwing.
Ask an English teacher.

[Killer Cyborg]

*Beats this argument to death with a wooden mallet*

Posts that have nothing useful to contribute, nothing that would actually resolve the argument one way or the other, or to provide support for either of the opposing views, are spam.

Yes, it can get tedious when two people make long posts back and forth over a subject of disagreement, but spamming doesn't make things go any smoother or faster.
All it does is to clutter up the thread.

[Dead Boy]

All it does is to clutter up the thread.

Or provide comic relief and gently remind two people that they're being annoying.

An unfortunate and unintentional side effect. Again, my apologies for being party to it. But I refuse to be drown out or shut up by the relentless barrage of one person's mega posts. Just because some says something otherwise more frequently, doesn't make it so.

I'll get back to this tomorrow. It's late and I really don't want to stay up too much later just to spend an hour plus putting together a response that's going to have its perfectly valid points ignored anyways.

[The Baron of chaos]

I feel I've not contribuited all tha tmuch to this thread. Mostly because is the same old "What Telekinesis can do" thread, old as this very board(even older...).
Fact is that ORIGINALLY Telekinesis was allowed a certain degree of freedom due its extremely generic description.
In following times, additional psionic powers(TK Leap, TK Lift, TK Push, and Levitation and TK Punch even if they are not that good, in Rifts setting that's it.) have took tasks that once time were part of Telekinesis psionic gig.
Now Telekinesis super is only left, as KC said, to throw stuff around. That's pretty much all of it.
Flight? Walking on Water? Sticking to Walls? These are anybody guess if can be done with telekinesis or not.
In theory, YES, nothing prevent it
In the practice is complex to put this in reasonable game terms, considering that Rifts earth is quite a psionic unfriendly place you can get(REALLY if took years to give Psy-stalker a power that make them survive a battle with SN creatures, it took years to get pyro and electro kinesis upgrader so they can do a reasonable megadamage, and took lot of times before TK acceleration attack was even introduced. ). Clearly not at level of Beyond the Supernatural, but still.(Splicer do not count as it was not thought to have psionic in any form. Too bad they put the back door of bio-force field. Once you open that door, well, next step is Green Lantern style Host Armor or course.)

BUT
I think tha tall the above, a psionic can move in sky, simply using some comb and some "elastic" thought process.
Example COmbining Levitation,that essentially is a power that lift you in air vertically at some height aaaaannd leave you there for the duration. Nothing is said about being STUCK there by any force, nor that if you are moved horizontally by any other way you drop down(actually is hinted the opposite). So Is possible combining it with TK, Ectoplasm, TK leaping, TK super, or just anything else(if you're close to a building use TK push).
Really in theory you could use TK force field as a sort of "stair", Float to stay on water while pushing/pulling yourself in a given direction.
Till we got an official psionic power, is either this or using one of the MANY fan made TK flight psionic power. Is one of the most common psionic powers that fans make. Is part of Palladium Books zetgeist.

[Killer Cyborg]

All it does is to clutter up the thread.

Or provide comic relief and gently remind two people that they're being annoying.

An unfortunate and unintentional side effect. Again, my apologies for being party to it. But I refuse to be drown out or shut up by the relentless barrage of one person's mega posts. Just because some says something otherwise more frequently, doesn't make it so.

I work pretty darned well with syllogisms, and would be astoundingly pleased if people who argue with me online could manage to come up with a simple logical argument that could be addressed as such, instead of meandering emotional tangents and wishful thinking.
But yeah, as it is people all too often just try to drown me out by spamming out long posts and monologues, so I feel your pain.

I'll get back to this tomorrow. It's late and I really don't want to stay up too much later just to spend an hour plus putting together a response that's going to have its perfectly valid points ignored anyways.

Why not?
That's what I do.

[Killer Cyborg]

Example COmbining Levitation,that essentially is a power that lift you in air vertically at some height aaaaannd leave you there for the duration. Nothing is said about being STUCK there by any force, nor that if you are moved horizontally by any other way you drop down(actually is hinted the opposite). So Is possible combining it with TK, Ectoplasm, TK leaping, TK super, or just anything else(if you're close to a building use TK push).

Of course.
Perfectly book legal.

You could even levitate yourself to the desired height, then TK hurl yourself in the direction you want to go in, travelling by a kind of mid-air slide, unless your GM has some home-brewed whiplash rules.

[Dead Boy]

I work pretty darned well with syllogisms, and would be astoundingly pleased if people who argue with me online could manage to come up with a simple logical argument that could be addressed as such...

Seems to me you're only interested in logical arguments when they suit your preconceived point of view. Case in point, the proposed idea that telekinesis moves objects at a Speed of up to 67. That was perfectly logical argument based on indisputable facts, rooted in solid math. And by definition, a mathematical argument is a logical argument. Your response? Ignore it. Me? The more I think of it the stronger that figure sounds. Your proposed Speed of 6 is weak and unfounded.

Overall, you're against the idea of Telekinetic Flight. I get that loud and clear. But your strategy in attacking it is beyond infuriating. You're not just trying to counter it; you're taking a "Scorched Earth" approach to the entire power of Telekinesis! You're attempting to nerf it into oblivion so not only would it prevent the possibility of flight to any extent, but destroy it's ability to move anything in a significant manner beyond "hurling" things. And let's face it, in on MDC battle field that makes it all but useless. Not only are you intent on nerfing the power, you seem intent of forcing that point of view on others.

More later. It's sleepy time and I just spent the day doing taxes. I'll reorganize this into something a lot less chopped up like the above posts. In the mean time, bullet point me your case, and make it good.

[Killer Cyborg]

I work pretty darned well with syllogisms, and would be astoundingly pleased if people who argue with me online could manage to come up with a simple logical argument that could be addressed as such...

Seems to me you're only interested in logical arguments when they suit your preconceived point of view. Case in point, the proposed idea that telekinesis moves objects at a Speed of up to 67. That was perfectly logical argument based on indisputable facts, rooted in solid math. And by definition, a mathematical argument is a logical argument. Your response? Ignore it. Me? The more I think of it the stronger that figure sounds. Your proposed Speed of 6 is weak and unfounded.

If we were trying to calculate realworld speeds based on realworld information, then I'd go with your figures as they're logical.
But we're not; we're going with Palladium.
Trying to use math to determine how TK works is no more logical in this case than using math to try to determine how much damage the Boom Gun should do- it's the wrong tool for the particular job.
We know how much damage the Boom Gun does because the books tell us.
We know how fast Boom Gun rounds travel because the books tell us.
Any calculations that we perform on our own that conflict either of these pieces of information are calculations that are invalid, no matter how much sense they'd make in the real world.

"My" proposed speed comes from the books; it was the official answer at one point.
All the math in the world cannot change that.

Do you seriously think for one minute that Kevin would use the same calculations that you did and come up with the same answer?
Do you seriously think for one minute that if Kevin came forth and delivered an answer to us from on high, that the answer you came up with would be what he delivered?

I don't. It doesn't fit his M/O.
Therefore it's not an appropriate answer.
It doesn't matter how good the Mona Lisa is, you can't just stick it in an Andy Capp comic strip- it doesn't belong.
Good isn't the issue.
The issue is whether or not it fits with where you're trying to put it, and it doesn't.

You and I both know that what makes sense is often not the official answer in Rifts, so it's not logical to argue that something must be official based solely on the idea that it's what makes sense.

The argument of:
-X is what makes sense
-What makes sense is sometimes what the official rules are
Therefore, X must be an official rule

... simply does not work. It is simply not valid.
The conclusion does not follow from the premises.

Overall, you're against the idea of Telekinetic Flight.

Not as a concept, no. In general fiction where there is telekinesis, it makes sense for a powerful psychic to be able to use his/her power to fly around.
If the books presented the powers of TK as having the ability to make a person fly, I'd have no problem with it, and I'd make some rather happy use of it when I played.
But that's not what the books present.
What the books present is a power that, unlike many (most?) forms of TK in fiction, is primarily used for short bursts of uncontrolled movement or for more careful and controlled movement of smaller objects (melee weapons, etc.).
-The damage listing for TK is always for hurling/throwing, NEVER once for bashing somebody with an object melee-style.
-The MOPs describe the power as being used for throwing things, and this description is in the context of explaining why flight isn't possible with TK.

Personally, I'd love to have a Vance Astrovik type character who could fly around using TK, or somebody like The Great And Powerful Turtle from the Wild Cards novels.
(in fact, I'd happily run a game for somebody who wanted to play such a character, and change the rule accordingly, just like I've allowed TK to inflict direct damage in my games, to allow for an Akira-style telekinetic that could explode people with their mind)

But this isn't personal- this is a discussion that's about what the rules are, not what we'd like them to be.

You're attempting to nerf it into oblivion so not only would it prevent the possibility of flight to any extent, but destroy it's ability to move anything in a significant manner beyond "hurling" things. And let's face it, in on MDC battle field that makes it all but useless. Not only are you intent on nerfing the power, you seem intent of forcing that point of view on others.

What I am doing is granting the Telekinesis powers the ability to do everything that the powers are described as doing, and nothing more.
Ascribing un-described abilities to the powers and claiming that they're officially there would be disingenuous.
There is nothing official in the books that describes the TK powers as being capable of flight.
All there is are two instances where it's hinted that possibly the authors might have had some thoughts in that direction (the HUr mention of the power being able to move the psychic, and the RUE mention of weight limit), but that these thoughts were never officially put to paper or described in any way, and are therefore unofficial.

In the mean time, bullet point me your case, and make it good.

-Powers are granted by permission, not by the absence of forbiddance.
-The descriptions of the Telekinesis powers give no permission for use for flight
Therefore, the Telekinetic powers, lacking any specific permission for use in flight, do not provide the power of flight.

-The Telekinetic powers' descriptions allow for either bursts of power (hurling/throwing/flicking/etc.) OR for significant control (wielding a melee weapon with telekinetic force instead of physical hands), but not both at the same time.
-Telekinetic Flight would require both at the same time.
Therefore, the Telekinetic powers do not allow for telekinetic flight.

That's really all there is to it; there is no sufficient argument FOR the idea that the TK powers allow for flight, therefore it does not.

So far, we only have two pieces of circumstantial evidence pointing toward the notion of flight being possible with Super TK, and those pieces are not strong enough to build a valid case on.

[The Beast]

Well, find me a psionic with the ISP to move an earth mass sized object, and there's the guy capable of TK flight without a more specialized ability by my book, too bad that power also causes wobbles and irregularities in the earth's orbit and rotation... not to mention how tempting a prey with that much ISP must be to any psi vampires.

A Mulka.

[Killer Cyborg]

Addressing the math:

As for how fast the object moves, that can be inferred from the damage inflicted by the flung objects. An object weighing as little as 1.5 lbs can inflict 1D6SDC. That damage is equivalent to the damage of a .22LR bullet, which has 105 ft.-lbs of energy. In order for a 1.5 lb (10,500 grain) object to hit the the same amount of force, it must be traveling at 67.116 feet per second.

The primary issue there is the assumption that anything that inflicts 1d6 SDC is the equivalent of a .22 bullet, but that's not true.
Knives inflict 1d6 SDC, whether they're being thrown, thrust, or used in a slash.
Falling 10' inflicts 1d6 SDC.
Certain kick or punch attacks inflict 1d6 SDC.
An arrow from a short bow inflicts 1d6 SDC.
A pistol crossbow inflicts 1d6 SDC.
A lead pipe inflicts 1d6 SDC.
Impaling somebody with a grappling hook inflicts 1d6 SDC.
A short spear or javelin inflicts 1d6 SDC.
A boomerang inflicts 1d6 SDC.
A hurled brick or stone inflicts 1d6 SDC.
A sling or slingshot inflicts 1d6 SDC.
A shuriken inflicts 1d6 SDC.
A Wilk's Laser Scalpel inflicts 1d6 SDC.

Unless you can make a sufficient case for all of these things having the same amount of energy, then your line of thought does not follow:

Examine the following argument:
-An object weighing as little as 1.5 lbs can inflict 1D6SDC.
-A .22 bullet inflicts 1d6 SDC.
-Attacks that have equivalent damages have the same energy
Therefore, an object weighing as little as 1.5 lbs has the same energy as a .22 bullet

It is valid; the conclusion follows from the premises, but it is not SOUND- at least one of the premises is flawed.

We know that not all attacks with equivalent damages have the same energy.
We know this from the list I post above.
We also know this because hurled objects of different weight would have different energy levels, and the TK power lists the same damage for multiple weight levels.
A 1.5 lb object can inflict 1d6 SDC damage, but so can a 2 lb object, even though logically a 33% increase in mass would change the level of energy involved.
This becomes even clearer at the larger end of things:
A 26 lb object inflicts 4d6 SDC.
A 40 lb object inflicts 4d6 SDC.

Going with your argument as I read it, that would mean that a 26 lb object and a 40 lb object have the same energy, which does not make sense to me.
Am I missing some pieces to the puzzle?

[Svartalf]

Well, find me a psionic with the ISP to move an earth mass sized object, and there's the guy capable of TK flight without a more specialized ability by my book, too bad that power also causes wobbles and irregularities in the earth's orbit and rotation... not to mention how tempting a prey with that much ISP must be to any psi vampires.

A Mulka.

aren't mulka those beings that are designed to break the game whenever they appear anyway?

[Killer Cyborg]

Well, find me a psionic with the ISP to move an earth mass sized object, and there's the guy capable of TK flight without a more specialized ability by my book, too bad that power also causes wobbles and irregularities in the earth's orbit and rotation... not to mention how tempting a prey with that much ISP must be to any psi vampires.

A Mulka.

aren't mulka those beings that are designed to break the game whenever they appear anyway?

Not really break the game, just be virtually all-powerful plot devices.

[The Beast]

Well, find me a psionic with the ISP to move an earth mass sized object, and there's the guy capable of TK flight without a more specialized ability by my book, too bad that power also causes wobbles and irregularities in the earth's orbit and rotation... not to mention how tempting a prey with that much ISP must be to any psi vampires.

A Mulka.

aren't mulka those beings that are designed to break the game whenever they appear anyway?

Hey, all I did was answer the highlighted portion...

[Zer0 Kay]

Well, find me a psionic with the ISP to move an earth mass sized object, and there's the guy capable of TK flight without a more specialized ability by my book, too bad that power also causes wobbles and irregularities in the earth's orbit and rotation... not to mention how tempting a prey with that much ISP must be to any psi vampires.

A Mulka.

aren't mulka those beings that are designed to break the game whenever they appear anyway?

Not really break the game, just be virtually all-powerful plot devices.

Rifts Earth is an Astral Dimension created by a Mulka that was visiting the Nightspawn dimension on vaccation.

[Killer Cyborg]

Normal TK could lift/suspend/move you, but the weight limit prohibits it,

I asked Dead Boy, and he couldn't come up with an answer, so I'll ask you:
What weight limit?

You can lift as much weight as you like with normal TK- there IS no maximum weight limit.
The book even demonstrates that lifting a 125 lb object only takes 19 ISP, easily in the range of most psychic OCCs and races.
And there are people who weigh less than 125 lbs, especially when you add in non-human races like gnomes and pixies.
An average human Mind Melter will have about 120 ISP at first level, enough to lift an object or person weighing up to 1,120 lbs!!
So, what weight limit prohibits using normal TK to fly?

Dead Boy's response was:

Maybe it's the insufficiency of the base amount allowed with a nominal expenditure of ISP. After all, with Super TK it only takes two increments (10 ISP base X2) to overcome an average character's weight including gear. With ordinary TK two increments ("small" to "medium" expending 8 ISP) only grants 20 lbs of lift. In fact for the same 20 ISP (not a major effort) while Super will generate 200 lbs of lift, ordinary TK only generates 140 lbs.

Hell, I don't know. Like I said, it's there arbitrary limitation, not mine.

Got anything better?

Spoiler:

Doing some reading prompted by your post, I believe that I actually know the answer and have figured out most of the puzzle, if not all of it. But what fun would it be if I just suddenly gave you guys all the answers?