Juicers Without Downsides

[Killer Cyborg]

In a recent discussion, it was proposed:

you aren't going to find many if any who'd complain about having a Juicer that didn't have a 5-7 year life span and had one as long as every other PC in the group.

I feel that this is an interesting question, and thought it might make for an interesting poll.
The issue here is, would the Juicer OCC be better from a gaming point of view if it did not include the shorter lifespans?

[Nightmask]

Except having a normal lifespan in no way makes a Juicer some how better or some super-invincible combat machine, it doesn't change his actual stats one iota when it comes to combat and anything other than when he will theoretically die. You like to play a character under a death sentence that's fine, but the character doesn't become more powerful or unbeatable simply because the death sentence is lifted when everything else remains equal.

[Nightmask]

Except having a normal lifespan in no way makes a Juicer some how better or some super-invincible combat machine, it doesn't change his actual stats one iota when it comes to combat and anything other than when he will theoretically die. You like to play a character under a death sentence that's fine, but the character doesn't become more powerful or unbeatable simply because the death sentence is lifted when everything else remains equal.

It takes away from the fun of playing a Juicer is what I am saying, I have never said it made them invincible.

Eh, maybe I was reading more into that than you intended and what seemed implied wasn't. If so my apologies for that, other things might have me digging more deeply than necessary instead of sticking with straightforward simple readings.

[Blindscout]

I selected the option that it makes no difference as to what their life span is, but I must add a qualifying statement to my vote.

In my opinion it makes no difference as to what their lifespan span is so long as the removal of that downside is compensated for by some other kind of disadvantage.

If, considering the other thread, the long lived (and apparently human) juicer were the product of Gene-Splicer technology, I would fully expect some kind of downside such as the Gene-Splicers periodically re-abducting the character for evaluations, further modifications, etc. and probably at the worst possible times.

Cyborgs are no longer fully human and have to deal with upgrade and repair costs

RPA Pilots have to deal with repair/ammo costs, the can be caught with their robotic pants down and end up royally screwed.

Crazies go bat **** crazy.

Mages are persecuted/hunted/feared in many places

Every character class has (or at least should have) downsides, as long as the new Juicer OCC/RCC has some kind of downside, I don't care what the lifespan is.

[dragonfett]

I honestly don't think it would really change the game one way or another simply for the fact that Juicers tend to die in combat far more often than of old age (for a Juicer at least). Granted, some of those combat deaths can be attributed to the fact that the Juicer knows he's about to face his Last Call and would rather die in a blaze of glory than of bodily failure, however I still think that is pretty rare in Rifts Earth. But that's just me.

[Nightmask]

I selected the option that it makes no difference as to what their life span is, but I must add a qualifying statement to my vote.

In my opinion it makes no difference as to what their lifespan span is so long as the removal of that downside is compensated for by some other kind of disadvantage.

If, considering the other thread, the long lived (and apparently human) juicer were the product of Gene-Splicer technology, I would fully expect some kind of downside such as the Gene-Splicers periodically re-abducting the character for evaluations, further modifications, etc. and probably at the worst possible times.

Cyborgs are no longer fully human and have to deal with upgrade and repair costs

RPA Pilots have to deal with repair/ammo costs, the can be caught with their robotic pants down and end up royally screwed.

Crazies go bat **** crazy.

Mages are persecuted/hunted/feared in many places

Every character class has (or at least should have) downsides, as long as the new Juicer OCC/RCC has some kind of downside, I don't care what the lifespan is.

I did point out some downsides, one being that someone who is evidently a Juicer but doesn't require a harness is going to draw a lot of attention from people who'd like to know how to do that too and many are going to be quite fine with vivisecting (that's dissection while ALIVE for anyone who doesn't recognize the word) the character if they get ahold of it. 'Gene-Splicers made me this way!' isn't going to cut it so to speak. Those who do have the harness are likely to be envious of the character if they find out he's all natural and doesn't have to worry about 'Last Call' and likely lead to brawls and possible assassination attempts especially when hearing 'sorry I can't help you become like me it's in my genes'.

[Nightmask]

GM's have the ability to wave their wand at anything they want. If a GM wants to waive the burnout, he or she can do so. Or they can extend it to something both player and GM see as reasonable.

Personally, I think their guaranteed shorter lifespan makes them infinitely more interesting to roleplay. If all you care about are the stats there other OCC/RCC's to choose from.

It's not all about the stats, there are interesting possibilities for Roleplaying such a character. I mean think about it, he's got the Holy Grail all Juicers want. Whether it was forced onto him or he lucked into it he's got what so many would want and he likely knows about it. How does it affect him? Consider when he's around an OCC Juicer: he's looking at someone just like him but who is going to die from what he has but the Juicer RCC will be just fine. Does he feel pity, superiority, compassion? Does he perhaps try and find a way to help other Juicers? Does he try and find some horribly evil bargain he can make with the Gene-Splicer that created him to modify at least some other Juicers to be like him, sacrificing himself so others can have that boon? Does he start feeling like a god because he's so superior to normal humans and attempt to dominate everyone around him? So many possibilities unexplored.

[Ale Golem]

Cyborgs are no longer fully human and have to deal with upgrade and repair costs.

Don't forget the insanities.

[boxee]

I voted to get rid of the limited lifespan. I think the juicer and crazy would be alot better in they did not suffer these penalties to the degree the book depicts. I really dislike that it is super high end tech and has drawbacks that would bar them from military service other then suicide attacks, yes some countries might do, but I think most would not, at all. The juicer is not as bad off as the crazy, I must agree, they can be effective for their lifespan.
IF they had done these classes in chaos earth with full tech levels there would be far less problems. HOWEVER we did not get them as far as I know, in that setting, if I am wrong please tell me, I would buy the book!

[Damian Magecraft]

IMO the only people who could care less about or think the removal of the life-span of juicers is a good thing are "optimizers" (God i hate that phrase call a spade a spade - a number cruncher.)

[Nightmask]

IMO the only people who could care less about or think the removal of the life-span of juicers is a good thing are "optimizers" (God i hate that phrase call a spade a spade - a number cruncher.)

You'll need to explain then what numbers that they're crunching to 'optimize', since lifespan doesn't affect any other numbers outside of lifespan.

[Athos]

As a GM, I would never allow a juicer to skip the penalty on life span. The class is so powerful as is, it needs something to keep the world from being dominated by "old" juicers.

If you are really looking for some extra juicer cheese as a player, I would recommend a dragon juicer, who could if powerful enough, hunt down dragons and have their blood made into a renewal for another 6d6 months or whatever it is... I would allow this, since dragons are TOUGH, and you aren't likely to live long enough to kill many of them.

[Damian Magecraft]

IMO the only people who could care less about or think the removal of the life-span of juicers is a good thing are "optimizers" (God i hate that phrase call a spade a spade - a number cruncher.)

You'll need to explain then what numbers that they're crunching to 'optimize', since lifespan doesn't affect any other numbers outside of lifespan.

Answer this...
You are told the campaign will span the course of 20 years (jump cutting down time where little to no exp would be accumulated) would you purposely choose to run a RAW juicer? even if the GM guaranteed you would survive detox regardless of how long you stayed as a juicer?
NCs would not because the ROLE-play aspect of the downsides does not appeal to them only the Bonuses do.
They would even ignore the class after the GM Fiat of survival of detox because the downsides of detox are too debilitating to their character. (all they care about is "beating the game" with the most mechanically perfect character possible).

[Mack]

Except having a normal lifespan in no way makes a Juicer some how better or some super-invincible combat machine, it doesn't change his actual stats one iota when it comes to combat and anything other than when he will theoretically die.

Indirectly it does change the stats. Try roleplaying a typical Juicer to a high experience level. Even Julian the First is only 8th level.

As an aside, part of a Juicer's nature is the 'Live Fast, Die Young' philosophy which is primarily caused by their impending death. One reason Juicer's are not afraid to take chances in combat is that they know they don't have long to live anyway. The Bio-Comp harness doesn't come with a 401k.

[Nightmask]

IMO the only people who could care less about or think the removal of the life-span of juicers is a good thing are "optimizers" (God i hate that phrase call a spade a spade - a number cruncher.)

You'll need to explain then what numbers that they're crunching to 'optimize', since lifespan doesn't affect any other numbers outside of lifespan.

Answer this...
You are told the campaign will span the course of 20 years (jump cutting down time where little to no exp would be accumulated) would you purposely choose to run a RAW juicer? even if the GM guaranteed you would survive detox regardless of how long you stayed as a juicer?
NCs would not because the ROLE-play aspect of the downsides does not appeal to them only the Bonuses do.
They would even ignore the class after the GM Fiat of survival of detox because the downsides of detox are too debilitating to their character. (all they care about is "beating the game" with the most mechanically perfect character possible).

The bonuses aren't that impressive (unless in the revised book they really added things to the Juicer from my old-school copy) and there are other reasons beyond bonuses and stats to not care for that offer. Whenever the character detoxes he must become another OCC, while having only 9-12 on all of his Physical stats. So unlike everyone else he now is basically starting over with a 1st level character with stats most wouldn't accept starting a game with so why would they find it okay to start playing with those abilities that far into the game?

Also you're assuming the only motivation is 'beating the game', when there is no beating an open-ended unending game and Juicers aren't mechanically perfect or so astoundingly powerful that somehow they go from okay in a game with a shorter life span to 'too powerful' when only their lifespan changed.

Where's the crippling early death for the Ley Line Walker? By the time he's mid-level he's going to have quite the selection of spells some of which will let the LLW put a Juicer to shame in combat and unlike the Juicer he's not going to get forced to reset to 1st level in another OCC and work again from scratch with a set of heavily reduced Physical stats. Meanwhile the Juicer doesn't gain anything outside what he gains from increasing his skill levels and HtH combat.

What I mostly hear is 'the class is supposed to live fast and die young that's its point', which if so that's NOT particularly conducive to RP. Every other class gets to enjoy the option of choice in how they want to do things and see the future, not so the Juicer, he's told he has to either life fast and die young, detox and live like an invalid compared to what he's used to AND die early because of the drugs while starting over in a new OCC, or sacrifice his humanity to become a borg and again start over again at first level. What a great deal, decide to either have your character die or have to deal with the other players complaining about your now 1st level character who can't keep up with them.

[boxee]

Military in our lifetime has decided not to "enhance" soldiers due to side effects, not that ones in rifts cant join, but we decided not to do this from seeing it fail again and again. In rifts it is more viable due to things like demons running around, but most civilized cities will be very leery of letting a crazy with rods sticking out or a juicer with a harness showing in to their city since they would have a very hard time stopping them from running around on a killing spree. For reasons like "i saw him move like he might have been drawing a gun" or "they are all evil bugs on the inside you know?". This is in reply to the person who asked what I was talking about them not being in military service.

[Nightmask]

Military in our lifetime has decided not to "enhance" soldiers due to side effects, not that ones in rifts cant join, but we decided not to do this from seeing it fail again and again. In rifts it is more viable due to things like demons running around, but most civilized cities will be very leery of letting a crazy with rods sticking out or a juicer with a harness showing in to their city since they would have a very hard time stopping them from running around on a killing spree. For reasons like "i saw him move like he might have been drawing a gun" or "they are all evil bugs on the inside you know?". This is in reply to the person who asked what I was talking about them not being in military service.

Well the CS certainly frowned on Juicers in the military, enough so that Quebec had to pretend its legions of Juicers were not part of its military and were independents instead. The CS only recently had started cautiously accepting some into service. Other kingdoms don't have as much regard for its citizens or find it a good way to make use of some outsiders looking for citizenship by having at least some of them become Juicers serving their militia.

[boxee]

Yes as mentioned in rifts is more viable, but I think they would be more likely to send money making bots, dogboys, and adding cyberware. Unless in very dire situations, ie invading army at the front door.

[Damian Magecraft]

IMO the only people who could care less about or think the removal of the life-span of juicers is a good thing are "optimizers" (God i hate that phrase call a spade a spade - a number cruncher.)

You'll need to explain then what numbers that they're crunching to 'optimize', since lifespan doesn't affect any other numbers outside of lifespan.

Answer this...
You are told the campaign will span the course of 20 years (jump cutting down time where little to no exp would be accumulated) would you purposely choose to run a RAW juicer? even if the GM guaranteed you would survive detox regardless of how long you stayed as a juicer?
NCs would not because the ROLE-play aspect of the downsides does not appeal to them only the Bonuses do.
They would even ignore the class after the GM Fiat of survival of detox because the downsides of detox are too debilitating to their character. (all they care about is "beating the game" with the most mechanically perfect character possible).

The bonuses aren't that impressive (unless in the revised book they really added things to the Juicer from my old-school copy) and there are other reasons beyond bonuses and stats to not care for that offer. Whenever the character detoxes he must become another OCC, while having only 9-12 on all of his Physical stats. So unlike everyone else he now is basically starting over with a 1st level character with stats most wouldn't accept starting a game with so why would they find it okay to start playing with those abilities that far into the game?

Also you're assuming the only motivation is 'beating the game', when there is no beating an open-ended unending game and Juicers aren't mechanically perfect or so astoundingly powerful that somehow they go from okay in a game with a shorter life span to 'too powerful' when only their lifespan changed.

Where's the crippling early death for the Ley Line Walker? By the time he's mid-level he's going to have quite the selection of spells some of which will let the LLW put a Juicer to shame in combat and unlike the Juicer he's not going to get forced to reset to 1st level in another OCC and work again from scratch with a set of heavily reduced Physical stats. Meanwhile the Juicer doesn't gain anything outside what he gains from increasing his skill levels and HtH combat.

What I mostly hear is 'the class is supposed to live fast and die young that's its point', which if so that's NOT particularly conducive to RP. Every other class gets to enjoy the option of choice in how they want to do things and see the future, not so the Juicer, he's told he has to either life fast and die young, detox and live like an invalid compared to what he's used to AND die early because of the drugs while starting over in a new OCC, or sacrifice his humanity to become a borg and again start over again at first level. What a great deal, decide to either have your character die or have to deal with the other players complaining about your now 1st level character who can't keep up with them.

PP +1d4 to PP (no lower than 22) not that great? what kind of stat gen you using?
9-12 nonviable? again what stat gen method are you using?
This is not D20 where 2 or 3 or even 12 levels will make that big a difference in the game play.

[boxee]

So you know you will live 20 years in rifts, unlikely if you are not hiding in a hole, so situation is not viable. This is a pointless situation, like saying you are in a game and the gm says you will live, why play?

[boxee]

Never allow it as juicers are too powerful, do you only use the main book????

[Damian Magecraft]

So you know you will live 20 years in rifts, unlikely if you are not hiding in a hole, so situation is not viable. This is a pointless situation, like saying you are in a game and the gm says you will live, why play?

Never said living was guaranteed only that detox would not kill the char and that the campaign would span a twenty year time line. Still a viable premise.
You are assuming that the game is about nothing but combat.
While it is true that combat = conflict. Conflict is not necessarily combat. And role-playing is about conflict.

[Nightmask]

So you know you will live 20 years in rifts, unlikely if you are not hiding in a hole, so situation is not viable. This is a pointless situation, like saying you are in a game and the gm says you will live, why play?

Never said living was guaranteed only that detox would not kill the char and that the campaign would span a twenty year time line. Still a viable premise.
You are assuming that the game is about nothing but combat.
While it is true that combat = conflict. Conflict is not necessarily combat. And role-playing is about conflict.

Roleplaying is about storytelling, conflict isn't a requirement just a possible story element.

[boxee]

It is true, but i sometimes enjoy conflict.

[Damian Magecraft]

So you know you will live 20 years in rifts, unlikely if you are not hiding in a hole, so situation is not viable. This is a pointless situation, like saying you are in a game and the gm says you will live, why play?

Never said living was guaranteed only that detox would not kill the char and that the campaign would span a twenty year time line. Still a viable premise.
You are assuming that the game is about nothing but combat.
While it is true that combat = conflict. Conflict is not necessarily combat. And role-playing is about conflict.

Roleplaying is about storytelling, conflict isn't a requirement just a possible story element.

There is no story without conflict of some sort.
Moral, emotional, physical, etc...

[Nightmask]

So you know you will live 20 years in rifts, unlikely if you are not hiding in a hole, so situation is not viable. This is a pointless situation, like saying you are in a game and the gm says you will live, why play?

Never said living was guaranteed only that detox would not kill the char and that the campaign would span a twenty year time line. Still a viable premise.
You are assuming that the game is about nothing but combat.
While it is true that combat = conflict. Conflict is not necessarily combat. And role-playing is about conflict.

Roleplaying is about storytelling, conflict isn't a requirement just a possible story element.

There is no story without conflict of some sort.
Moral, emotional, physical, etc...

It requires a very loose definition of conflict to state that all stories are about conflict. Two characters out on a romantic date that ends up back at her place for some loving for example isn't something I'd class as being in the category of having conflict as a basic requirement.

[boxee]

HOW IS THAT NOT CONQUEST!!!!

[Dead Boy]

GM's have the ability to wave their wand at anything they want. If a GM wants to waive the burnout, he or she can do so. Or they can extend it to something both player and GM see as reasonable.

Personally, I think their guaranteed shorter lifespan makes them infinitely more interesting to roleplay. If all you care about are the stats there other OCC/RCC's to choose from.

It's not all about the stats, there are interesting possibilities for Roleplaying such a character. I mean think about it, he's got the Holy Grail all Juicers want. Whether it was forced onto him or he lucked into it he's got what so many would want and he likely knows about it. How does it affect him? Consider when he's around an OCC Juicer: he's looking at someone just like him but who is going to die from what he has but the Juicer RCC will be just fine. Does he feel pity, superiority, compassion? Does he perhaps try and find a way to help other Juicers? Does he try and find some horribly evil bargain he can make with the Gene-Splicer that created him to modify at least some other Juicers to be like him, sacrificing himself so others can have that boon? Does he start feeling like a god because he's so superior to normal humans and attempt to dominate everyone around him? So many possibilities unexplored.

Do you know who one of my favorite historical figures was out of the Old West? John Henry Holliday DDS, aka Doc Holliday. He was an interesting figure because of the key characteristic that made him so damn deadly later in life; he had no fear of death. The man was dying of TB and knew it. He was a dead man walking cramming in as much life as he could in what little life he had left, frequently drunk on alcohol and and high as a kite on laudanum. I suspect his aim was to die like a man in a blaze of glory. As per the old west saying, he wanted to die with his boots on. But because of the fearless, brutal way he engaged in all his fights, the man passed in bed at a hospital undefeated by all save the disease that made him who he was. His last words, looking at his bootless feet, were "Now that's funny." He lived fast, tried to die hard, and burnt out at an early age (36).

By extension, that is the way I see a Juicer living his life. He knows his days are numbered and has very few left to live life to the fullest. But in accepting his impending death, he has no fear of it. They are dead men walking and accept their fate. It's the life they chose in exchange for the opportunity to be the stars that shine twice as brightly, only to burn out that much sooner.

Take away that limited mortality, and you take away the OCC's true defining characteristic.

[Nightmask]

Do you know who one of my favorite historical figures was out of the Old West? John Henry Holliday DDS, aka Doc Holliday. He was an interesting figure because of the key characteristic that made him so damn deadly later in life; he had no fear of death. The man was dying of TB and knew it. He was a dead man walking cramming in as much life as he could in what little life he had left, frequently drunk on alcohol and and high as a kite on laudanum. I suspect his aim was to die like a man in a blaze of glory. As per the old west saying, he wanted to die with his boots on. But because of the fearless, brutal way he engaged in all his fights, the man passed in bed at a hospital undefeated by all save the disease that made him who he was. His last words, looking at his bootless feet, were "Now that's funny." He lived fast, tried to die hard, and burnt out at an early age (36).

By extension, that is the way I see a Juicer living his life. He knows his days are numbered and has very few left to live life to the fullest. But in accepting his impending death, he has no fear of it. They are dead men walking and accept their fate. It's the life they chose in exchange for the opportunity to be the stars that shine twice as brightly, only to burn out that much sooner.

Take away that limited mortality, and you take away the OCC's true defining characteristic.

But you see, not everyone sees that as being what defines the class. You're talking probably hundreds of thousands of people who play Palladium and easily tens of thousands who play Rifts (and yes I know I'm probably being conservative but I would rather undershoot than overshoot in such cases) and some just aren't going to see it that way. it doesn't make them munchkin, number crunchers, power gamers, or whatever negative label one wants to slap onto them for saying 'gee I wish this class wasn't so crippled with limitations like that, it'd be so fun to play if not for that'. The people whose idea of game play is detrimental to everyone else will have ways of seeing every class as something to exploit. Seriously that's their fixation in life they're going to analyze every class every which way to find some way to make it 'unbeatable'.

So for those who find the limitation unnecessary or needlessly restrictive compared to everyone else that's a perfect valid opinion to have. Having it doesn't for a moment mean they have to be out to 'cheat the system' or try and get some advantage over everyone else (which again what advantage are they getting exactly? Living as long as everyone else, wow what a game-breaker). Maybe it's just not fun for them to have a character with such cool abilities only to see it dead after all the hard work building it up and having to make up a new character while everyone else is grinding away at that next level.

Something that hasn't been acknowledged either is not everyone wants to play non-humans. They aren't interested in being told 'well get that RCC over there it's close enough', that's not what they want, they want a human like that. One that's not going to die in 5 years or be forced to become a shadow of his former self or more machine than man. It's not a valid point that 'well you can just play one of those aliens over there' when that's not what they want to play, 'close enough' isn't. Not to them. It's supposed to be about having fun right? Can't very well be having fun telling someone that they have to settle like that.

[boxee]

I do not agree with the motive behind doc holliday. I do not think the walking deadman theory is what was going on. He was in pain all the time, and if you look at it from that viewpoint it is not a true deathwish, he just wanted the pain to end. If there was a cure he would have been a different man. Also you need to note that he did not go and choose to become infected, did not get injected to become "better".
I do not have any disrespect for the man in any way and do not mean to say he was wrong for how he lived his life. He was many things to many people, some people loved him, some people did not love him. He has become a myth of the old west, more then history, someone who will be remembered for likely thousands of years.
History is facts, pure hard cold, dead. Myth lives, breathes, stirs emotions, allows us to feel his presence.
Good choice for a hero.

[TechnoGothic]

YEs, it would make the OCC better.

I would play up the Drug Addiction/Dependace aspect of the class, and require them to refill their drug harness more often for starters.
Give them the Hyper-Strength Syndrome, and Metabolic Induced tables as another side-effect for everyone. Higher the stats the greater the chances of developing these side-effects every level.

LIVE Fast, DIE Young -- Your a DRUGGIE, your a Combat Monkey of course your more likely going to die young, why not enjoy it. (No need for reduced lifespan really for this mentality)

Due to the low life span of them, as it is now, I'd rather use the HU2 Super-Soldier and build a SS even better with no side-effects usually. Ok headachs, and such, but thats ok.

I'd rather Play someone like Captain America, who is basicly a permanent Juicer (super-soldier serum) rather than someone who is going to die for fake "balance" sake as it is written.

[TechnoGothic]

Also, it would be interesting if their was no chance of detox for juicers.
Once you undergo the Chemical Enhancement Augementation process, your a hopeless drugg addict who will die without your drugs. Would make getting a resupply much more interesting and a good Story Hook.

[Nightmask]

YEs, it would make the OCC better.

I would play up the Drug Addiction/Dependace aspect of the class, and require them to refill their drug harness more often for starters.
Give them the Hyper-Strength Syndrome, and Metabolic Induced tables as another side-effect for everyone. Higher the stats the greater the chances of developing these side-effects every level.

LIVE Fast, DIE Young -- Your a DRUGGIE, your a Combat Monkey of course your more likely going to die young, why not enjoy it. (No need for reduced lifespan really for this mentality)

Due to the low life span of them, as it is now, I'd rather use the HU2 Super-Soldier and build a SS even better with no side-effects usually. Ok headachs, and such, but thats ok.

I'd rather Play someone like Captain America, who is basicly a permanent Juicer (super-soldier serum) rather than someone who is going to die for fake "balance" sake as it is written.

I've never understood why anyone would think Captain America is a drug user or fits that label. He underwent a medical procedure that permanently enhanced his body safely releasing the full human potential without the physical harm. He's the opposite of a Juicer.

[TechnoGothic]

In the comics Captain America has the Super-Soldier serum in his blood still. Give him a blood transfusion like they did in '91 and he lost his abilities...

[Nightmask]

In the comics Captain America has the Super-Soldier serum in his blood still. Give him a blood transfusion like they did in '91 and he lost his abilities...

That was a badly written storyline because someone said 'Cap's just a drug user!' and Marvel overreacted with a storyline where exposure to Meth (even though it never mattered before) contaminated his blood because it bonded with the SSS in his blood requiring a complete blood transfusion. He lost no abilities (other than perhaps his unlimited stamina) and had to exercise constantly to retain his abilities. This was dropped within weeks of comic time as it was revealed his body manufactures the SSS and with the contaminated SSS removed he produced new SSS. So it's not a drug after the process it became a natural product of his body like his blood, insulin, or adrenaline.

[Killer Cyborg]

IIRC, it was "Ice."

Having the serum in his blood does mean he's a drug user.

The thing is, even as a child I had the brains to know that just being a drug user is not necessarily a bad thing.
People who take aspirin are drug users.
The only thing wrong with being a drug user is when there are negative side effects, and there didn't seem to be any negative side effects from the super soldier serum.
Which is why Cap's reaction in that story line was absolutely retarded; it missed the whole point of the anti-drug crusade.
(illegal, recreational) drugs aren't bad because they're drugs; they're bad because they hurt and kill people.

[Killer Cyborg]

It's effectively "flavor text". I know (or have heard of) very few campaigns that went on long enough for mortality to become a factor.

I've seen it happen a couple of times at least, but I agree that it doesn't come up often.

That said, there can be a lot of great roleplaying opportunities, and things for the GM to mix in, if left as-is. I'm not sure Rifts needs more supermen with no obvious trade-offs.

Exactly.
In the beginning, Rifts (especially the focus on human augmentation) was all about power coming at a price.
You could be a superhuman soldier, but you'll die or go crazy.
You could be a kickass cyborg... but you lose some of your humanity.

Even with non-humans, it was the same.
You could be a dragon, but you'll be an obvious target most of the time, and hunted by the most powerful nation on the continent.

Then in later books, they started coming up with characters that had all the advantages of being human, but none of the disadvantages.

[Killer Cyborg]

So you know you will live 20 years in rifts, unlikely if you are not hiding in a hole, so situation is not viable. This is a pointless situation, like saying you are in a game and the gm says you will live, why play?

Never said living was guaranteed only that detox would not kill the char and that the campaign would span a twenty year time line. Still a viable premise.
You are assuming that the game is about nothing but combat.
While it is true that combat = conflict. Conflict is not necessarily combat. And role-playing is about conflict.

Roleplaying is about storytelling, conflict isn't a requirement just a possible story element.

There is no story without conflict of some sort.
Moral, emotional, physical, etc...

It requires a very loose definition of conflict to state that all stories are about conflict. Two characters out on a romantic date that ends up back at her place for some loving for example isn't something I'd class as being in the category of having conflict as a basic requirement.

It's the kind of thing that writing and acting classes would classify as being conflict.

[DhAkael]

Stragely enough, I'm going to go with "would make the OCC / RCC better; more useable".
I run long term campaigns; reaching into years worth or in-game and IRL time. If someone were to play a juicer...the character would die just as the next story arc was getting ready, or never get to a level higher than say 4th before ganking (and this is even with 600 to 1000 exp per session per week).
VERY few people, except emo cases, ENJOY playing a character who WILL die on a set time at a set date.

...that and after hearing Roy Batty's death speach for the 20th' time it gets OLD real fast.

So yeah...

[Killer Cyborg]

Stragely enough, I'm going to go with "would make the OCC / RCC better; more useable".
I run long term campaigns; reaching into years worth or in-game and IRL time. If someone were to play a juicer...the character would die just as the next story arc was getting ready, or never get to a level higher than say 4th before ganking (and this is even with 600 to 1000 exp per session per week).
VERY few people, except emo cases, ENJOY playing a character who WILL die on a set time at a set date.

Juicers don't have to die, though. They can detox.
And if they do die, that doesn't mean that the campaign is ruined unless the juicer in question is the center of the story. If one character dies just as the next story arc was getting ready, bring in a new character.
And death doesn't have to be permanent. In one of our campaigns, the party juicer detoxed early on accident by bonding with a rune sword that made him impervious to poisons/toxins. He killed himself, but the party was able to have him resurrected.

Game Masters don't need to be completely stumped by impending character death, particularly if it's something that can be seen coming a long time in advance.

...that and after hearing Roy Batty's death speach for the 20th' time it gets OLD real fast.

So yeah...

Ya got me there.

[boxee]

I have to agree the you WILL die or become useless is a bad storyline. Even if storming into Atlantis there shound be hope of survival, granted it is unlikely, but it could happen.
I must agree with KC in the beginning it was the losing humanity to be better, then in later books they just made power trips.

[Nightmask]

I do not agree with the motive behind doc holliday. I do not think the walking deadman theory is what was going on. He was in pain all the time, and if you look at it from that viewpoint it is not a true deathwish, he just wanted the pain to end. If there was a cure he would have been a different man. Also you need to note that he did not go and choose to become infected, did not get injected to become "better".
I do not have any disrespect for the man in any way and do not mean to say he was wrong for how he lived his life. He was many things to many people, some people loved him, some people did not love him. He has become a myth of the old west, more then history, someone who will be remembered for likely thousands of years.
History is facts, pure hard cold, dead. Myth lives, breathes, stirs emotions, allows us to feel his presence.
Good choice for a hero.

HE didn't want the pain to end, if that was the case he would have put a bullet in his own head or gotten into a gunfight and not drawn his gun. There were things he could have did to prolong his life but he didn't, he figured Hell I'm going to die mine as well live the hell out of my life before I do.

On another note could you please quote when you are responding to someone, it gets very confusing to read when people have no idea who you are answering/talking to.

Well suicide even for him might have been seen as a sin and only death at the hands of another as acceptable, hence his not just killing himself.

On the other note I actually got insulted and harassed by someone who felt quoting was rude and confusing on another site, never could understand that myself since like you note especially in longer threads without the quoting you end up having no idea who someone was responding to or about what at times.

[Nightmask]

if i want to play a char that looks like a human but is totes badass & has no side effects there is like a jillion RCCs from True Atlanteans to crazy supernatural MDC bros i coud pick. juicers without pentaltys are just another borin class for twinks like Sea Titans

The twink label's on the overboard side, especially when listing so many classes equal or superior to the Juicer which if anything would rate the Juicer as a weakling and hardly interesting to a twink with these other classes around. Can't really call a class a twink class when it's inferior to a lot of other classes.

[Cinos]

Would it make a 'better' class? Sure. Remove any given downside without a new downside to any class makes it a 'better' class. Let wizards wear full plate without worry? Better class.

Does it make a better game? No. I've seen people take the Juicer BECAUSE of their short life span. It's a bold choice for players who can actually see the long scope.

[Nightmask]

Would it make a 'better' class? Sure. Remove any given downside without a new downside to any class makes it a 'better' class. Let wizards wear full plate without worry? Better class.

Does it make a better game? No. I've seen people take the Juicer BECAUSE of their short life span. It's a bold choice for players who can actually see the long scope.

That's some people though, many take it in spite of that or don't take it at all because of that one point being a deal-killer for an OCC they'd otherwise enjoy. Plus there isn't much of a long scope with a character that's certain barring death from combat to end up dead long before everyone else. It's a downside that just doesn't add anything substantive. Every character has a death sentence from aging eventually, you can play any character with a 'live fast/die young' mindset, considering even a century of life as ephemeral or looking at how dangerous the world is and feeling like everyone's under a death sentence and will never live to old age and might as well live it up in the meantime. So there's nothing of value about the Juicer Death Sentence, one does not require it be forced onto you by the class to play a character like that. It's a limit that forces only a few choices for RP onto the player, they're shackled in ways you aren't with any other OCC.

[Killer Cyborg]

Would it make a 'better' class? Sure. Remove any given downside without a new downside to any class makes it a 'better' class. Let wizards wear full plate without worry? Better class.

Does it make a better game? No. I've seen people take the Juicer BECAUSE of their short life span. It's a bold choice for players who can actually see the long scope.

That's some people though, many take it in spite of that or don't take it at all because of that one point being a deal-killer for an OCC they'd otherwise enjoy.

Agreed.
And looking at the poll, we can get an idea of what general percentage of players behave which way.

[dark brandon]

personally, for players, I don't think it really matters on average.

I don't think the average game/story lines go into the years, so I don't think it matters one way or another.

[Rahmota]

Juicers need to keep their check out time to make them a playable class with the uniqueness that having a built in timer gives them. It gives the character a definate goal, definate motivation to do somethign with his life and a definate reason to make a if not difference an impact in the world.

And I have played in games that have lasted long enough real world and game world that can be measured in years.

[RainOfSteel]

I feel that this is an interesting question, and thought it might make for an interesting poll.
The issue here is, would the Juicer OCC be better from a gaming point of view if it did not include the shorter lifespans?

If the time-limited death were removed, it would be a different OCC. I can easily imagine much more advanced technologies being able to handle it. But not the technology of Rifts Earth. Perhaps some Rifts Earth technologies might be advanced enough to add 1d3 years of usefulness, but that would be it.

It could be the Advanced Juicer or Accelerated Human O.C.C., possibly originating in Three Galaxies, for instance. It would require something like a slurry of nanobots to be administered regularly for system functionality and maintenance, with death following if it were not available after a certain period (or perhaps automatic suspended animation). I don't see this as being more powerful than a Cosmo Knight even with a few boosted stats due to the higher technology. As regular contact between the Three Galaxies and Rifts Earth is not something I personally believe in, any player on Rifts Earth who had somehow acquired the OCC would eventually run out of "the stuff" and die anyway (or be removed from play by suspended animation), and so it would not be much different in the Rifts Earth post-apocalyptic setting.

[boxee]

I feel that this is an interesting question, and thought it might make for an interesting poll.
The issue here is, would the Juicer OCC be better from a gaming point of view if it did not include the shorter lifespans?

If the time-limited death were removed, it would be a different OCC. I can easily imagine much more advanced technologies being able to handle it. But not the technology of Rifts Earth. Perhaps some Rifts Earth technologies might be advanced enough to add 1d3 years of usefulness, but that would be it.

It could be the Advanced Juicer or Accelerated Human O.C.C., possibly originating in Three Galaxies, for instance. It would require something like a slurry of nanobots to be administered regularly for system functionality and maintenance, with death following if it were not available after a certain period (or perhaps automatic suspended animation). I don't see this as being more powerful than a Cosmo Knight even with a few boosted stats due to the higher technology. As regular contact between the Three Galaxies and Rifts Earth is not something I personally believe in, any player on Rifts Earth who had somehow acquired the OCC would eventually run out of "the stuff" and die anyway (or be removed from play by suspended animation), and so it would not be much different in the Rifts Earth post-apocalyptic setting.

Well said!