So what is your favorite N&SS OCC and why?

[Nightmask]

Just curious what everyone's favorite OCC from Ninjas and Superspies is and why. Is it because the OCC can be configured with skill programs in a variety of ways, because you just find the concept just that cool, or some other reason?

I tend to lean towards the Tinker Gizmoteer myself. There's a lot of flexibility when it comes to what kind you can create. You can have a Cyber-doc, Professional Thief, Bodyguard/Assassin, and even a vehicle expert and pilot depending on what you center your non-Gizmoteer program around. Sure you don't get any dedicated MA and have to settle for the standard HtH selections but depending on the choices for your Skill programs you can be an incredible asset for a team. The Cyber-Doc for example can also provide medical care like a normal doctor and depending on his Gizmoteer programs can easily take care of weapons, computer hacking, and even vehicles if configured that way.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Ethere one of the gizmoteers or the DMA.

From MC, a Wu Shih for the OCC, but a 'Rebel' Infernal for race.

[slade the sniper]

Academy Officer, they have the largest number of skill programs and get some pretty decent bonuses. They are my favorite, and I often use them in RIFTS and ROBOTECH for command type leaders instead of tactical leaders.

-STS

[Nightmask]

Academy Officer, they have the largest number of skill programs and get some pretty decent bonuses. They are my favorite, and I often use them in RIFTS and ROBOTECH for command type leaders instead of tactical leaders.

-STS

Well the Operative Agent gets more, but only because they aren't limited to basic skill programs; an Operative Agent could technically not have any basic skill programs.

Operative Agents get six total Skill programs, Academy Officer's get Seven: Five Military (one being Basic military) and two Basic programs. Given the nature of the AO's programs it's a rare combination that doesn't end up with having mastery in all modern WP and more than a few ancient ones.

Overall the Academy officer's likely to have the most skills just because there isn't a lot of overlap in the Military programs, trying to do that with the Operative Agent is nigh-impossible unless you're selecting solely based on adding up skills rather than something that can be sensibly explained in their backstory (at least it'd take a good amount of creativity to justify that kind of skill program selection).

Still outside of a few OCC (like the Dedicated Martial Artist) N&SS is the most skill-intensive and skill-providing Palladium game that I've seen. 70+ skills is entirely possible and have it completely make sense in the context of the character created. I know I'd more likely favor a Tinker Gizmoteer over a Rogue Scientist for example in Rifts for example.

[Regularguy]

Overall the Academy officer's likely to have the most skills just because there isn't a lot of overlap in the Military programs, trying to do that with the Operative Agent is nigh-impossible unless you're selecting solely based on adding up skills rather than something that can be sensibly explained in their backstory (at least it'd take a good amount of creativity to justify that kind of skill program selection).

You already seem cool with an Academy Officer taking Military: Basic before selecting Military: Helicopters, at which point he could plausibly add in Military: Intelligence and Military: Guerilla Warfare on his way to becoming a well-rounded superspy; I'd figure an Operative can likewise start off with Military: Basic before selecting Military: Helicopters, at which point he simply adds in Espionage: Deep Cover and Espionage: Bodyguard/Assassin to cover much the same ground (Cryptography, Detect Ambush, Detect Concealment, Disguise, Forgery, Sniper, Surveillance Systems, Tracking, various WPs). Then figure both of 'em grab the same Basic skill programs -- at which point the AO picks up a seventh skill program while the OA of course picks up a non-HtH martial art.

Which raises a related point: even without the assorted woo-woo Powers, a non-HtH martial art can arguably still do the work of an HtH one. So if skill programs are your thing, the OA acting like an AO can swap out a couple of Powers from, say, Fu-Chiao Pai to pick up a seventh and eighth skill program even while retaining Karumi-Jutsu -- not to mention that he'd pick up a free language in the process, along with free Cooking and Fasting and Gardening and Gymnastics and Prowl and Swimming and Taoism and Wilderness Survival and yet another WP, but never mind that now.

[Nightmask]

Overall the Academy officer's likely to have the most skills just because there isn't a lot of overlap in the Military programs, trying to do that with the Operative Agent is nigh-impossible unless you're selecting solely based on adding up skills rather than something that can be sensibly explained in their backstory (at least it'd take a good amount of creativity to justify that kind of skill program selection).

You already seem cool with an Academy Officer taking Military: Basic before selecting Military: Helicopters, at which point he could plausibly add in Military: Intelligence and Military: Guerilla Warfare on his way to becoming a well-rounded superspy; I'd figure an Operative can likewise start off with Military: Basic before selecting Military: Helicopters, at which point he simply adds in Espionage: Deep Cover and Espionage: Bodyguard/Assassin to cover much the same ground (Cryptography, Detect Ambush, Detect Concealment, Disguise, Forgery, Sniper, Surveillance Systems, Tracking, various WPs). Then figure both of 'em grab the same Basic skill programs -- at which point the AO picks up a seventh skill program while the OA of course picks up a non-HtH martial art.

Which raises a related point: even without the assorted woo-woo Powers, a non-HtH martial art can arguably still do the work of an HtH one. So if skill programs are your thing, the OA acting like an AO can swap out a couple of Powers from, say, Fu-Chiao Pai to pick up a seventh and eighth skill program even while retaining Karumi-Jutsu -- not to mention that he'd pick up a free language in the process, along with free Cooking and Fasting and Gardening and Gymnastics and Prowl and Swimming and Taoism and Wilderness Survival and yet another WP, but never mind that now.

Military: Basic is the required base program of the Academy Officer, you only get to choose with the remaining four. It's how they are. By the time you've got an Academy Officer or Operative Agent you've so many skills available to you there really isn't much point throwing away your Martial Arts powers to get even more skill programs especially given how few you can get anyway. Plus Discorporate would be a considerably more useful Zenjoriki what with it completely curing and eliminating everything detrimental to your character including Dim Mak.

[Regularguy]

Military: Basic is the required base program of the Academy Officer, you only get to choose with the remaining four. It's how they are.

Right. My point was that it would thus make perfect sense for an Operative built much like an Academy Officer to likewise start off with Military: Basic, and then likewise choose another Military program, and then choose a couple of programs that overlap a couple of Military programs with regard to a dozen skills -- which means it's not so much "nigh-impossible unless you're selecting solely based on adding up skills rather than something that can be sensibly explained in their backstory" so much as it's -- well, practically the path of least resistance.

Of course, an Academy Officer would then add in two Basic skill programs -- and our Operative could likewise use his "gizmoteer, medical, and/or basic" programs to pick the exact same ones, simply continuing the parallel. And while I don't know which two Basics you have in mind, that brings me to this:

By the time you've got an Academy Officer or Operative Agent you've so many skills available to you there really isn't much point throwing away your Martial Arts powers to get even more skill programs

I'm not sure. Again, (a) regardless of which Basics you have in mind for the Academy Officer -- maybe a smattering of languages, maybe a double shot of "Sports" for the professional-status cover identity, whatever -- an Operative who swaps out some (but by no means all) of his initial Martial Art powers can briskly cover those same Basics while freeing up his OCC-based programs for decidedly non-Basic stuff, bumping himself up from six to eight skill programs: computer-savvy gizmoteering and full-MD medical training, say?

And (b) if, as you say, Martial Arts powers really are so phenomenal as to be worth more than skill programs -- well, then, why the heck do you lean towards the Tinker Gizmoteer, who starts off with no powers and gets none later?

[Nightmask]

Military: Basic is the required base program of the Academy Officer, you only get to choose with the remaining four. It's how they are.

Right. My point was that it would thus make perfect sense for an Operative built much like an Academy Officer to likewise start off with Military: Basic, and then likewise choose another Military program, and then choose a couple of programs that overlap a couple of Military programs with regard to a dozen skills -- which means it's not so much "nigh-impossible unless you're selecting solely based on adding up skills rather than something that can be sensibly explained in their backstory" so much as it's -- well, practically the path of least resistance.

Of course, an Academy Officer would then add in two Basic skill programs -- and our Operative could likewise use his "gizmoteer, medical, and/or basic" programs to pick the exact same ones, simply continuing the parallel. And while I don't know which two Basics you have in mind, that brings me to this:

Well if we're talking emulating or creating variant versions of one OCC using another yes it would certainly be possible for the Operative Agent to have as many as 4 of his programs be the same as an Academy Officer might select But it's still nigh impossible for him to exceed the number of skills an Academy Officer can achieve. Remember those WP add up and the number possible to an Academy Officer can easily add up to all modern WP and spill over to some that are ancient.

By the time you've got an Academy Officer or Operative Agent you've so many skills available to you there really isn't much point throwing away your Martial Arts powers to get even more skill programs

I'm not sure. Again, (a) regardless of which Basics you have in mind for the Academy Officer -- maybe a smattering of languages, maybe a double shot of "Sports" for the professional-status cover identity, whatever -- an Operative who swaps out some (but by no means all) of his initial Martial Art powers can briskly cover those same Basics while freeing up his OCC-based programs for decidedly non-Basic stuff, bumping himself up from six to eight skill programs: computer-savvy gizmoteering and full-MD medical training, say?

And (b) if, as you say, Martial Arts powers really are so phenomenal as to be worth more than skill programs -- well, then, why the heck do you lean towards the Tinker Gizmoteer, who starts off with no powers and gets none later?

No actually I wasn't saying that, I said the character already has so many skills from his base programs it would be pointless for a few more skills to give away something you can't get back. Depending on the MA chosen giving up those is just a bad deal.

[Regularguy]

But it's still nigh impossible for him to exceed the number of skills an Academy Officer can achieve. Remember those WP add up and the number possible to an Academy Officer can easily add up to all modern WP and spill over to some that are ancient.

Shucks, if we're going for a "number of skills" comparison based on how easily WP add up, an Operative who likewise has all of the modern WPs can simply take Moo Gi Gong to spill over to all that are ancient: WP Blunt and WP Chain and WP Forked and WP Knife and WP Spear and WP Bow and WP Crossbow and WP Slingshot and WP Large Sword and WP Small Thrown Weapons and -- well, you get the idea; as was the case with Fu-Chiao Pai (and as is the case with Ch'a Ch'uan, and Isshin-Ryu, and Zanji Shinjinken-Ryu), the Operative can swiftly pick up a dozen or more skills by just taking the art in question, even if he doesn't then swap any Powers for Programs.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Dreamer Gizmoteer for me. A free martial art pick and several Gizmoteer skills for makin' stuff. Everything I want

[Nightmask]

Dreamer Gizmoteer for me. A free martial art pick and several Gizmoteer skills for makin' stuff. Everything I want

They do make for a nice alternative to the Tinker Gizmoteer, having that unexpectedly higher training in combat can be a good edge for someone who gives the appearance of just being a gizmoteer and thereby underestimates him thinking he's relatively helpless without his tech.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Dreamer Gizmoteer for me. A free martial art pick and several Gizmoteer skills for makin' stuff. Everything I want

They do make for a nice alternative to the Tinker Gizmoteer, having that unexpectedly higher training in combat can be a good edge for someone who gives the appearance of just being a gizmoteer and thereby underestimates him thinking he's relatively helpless without his tech.

Exactly! And three gizmoteer packages is still enough to specalize and have a sideline you do.

[Nightmask]

Dreamer Gizmoteer for me. A free martial art pick and several Gizmoteer skills for makin' stuff. Everything I want

They do make for a nice alternative to the Tinker Gizmoteer, having that unexpectedly higher training in combat can be a good edge for someone who gives the appearance of just being a gizmoteer and thereby underestimates him thinking he's relatively helpless without his tech.

Exactly! And three gizmoteer packages is still enough to specalize and have a sideline you do.

Too bad some combinations of MA and Skill programs aren't covered in the canon rules, no making a human ninja with tech skills like we see with one of the TMNT for example. Even though with things getting more high-tech a Ninja would have to keep up with the times and learn things like basic electronics and surveillance systems and similar skills to get around the more advanced means of security we've got today. Locksmith and Security Systems Gizmoteer program would be almost a must for modern-day ninja for such infiltration needs.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Ninjutsu kind of sucks for being an exclusive art. I was disapointed. It's not a great loss.

[Nightmask]

Ninjutsu kind of sucks for being an exclusive art. I was disapointed. It's not a great loss.

Well it does carry one of the largest selections of MA powers if memory serves: two Arts of Invisibility and a selection totaling two from Body Hardening and MA techniques. Not many other MA give 4 to start like that (discounting those that are weapon based as they offer all those Weapon Katas and ones like Zanji are loaded with Weapon Katas as a result).

Then again when you're mostly building for your own amusement you're free to make a Worldly Martial Artist with Ninjitsu and top him off with a Gizmoteer program like Locksmith and Security Systems to go with his Military: Basic, Basic: Languages, and Basic: Cultural. Or for that matter give a Basic program to the Dedicated Martial Artist who's ridiculously underskilled when he's only able to have two secondary skills to start. Only way to get more is to sacrifice MA powers from his two (three in the older book) styles in order to acquire Basic programs. Hardly seems fair to the DMA when an Operative Agent can have six deluxe programs and any non-exclusive MA that the DMA is apparently sacrificing roughly 4-6 skill programs just for an extra MA.

[Regularguy]

Well it does carry one of the largest selections of MA powers if memory serves: two Arts of Invisibility and a selection totaling two from Body Hardening and MA techniques. Not many other MA give 4 to start like that (discounting those that are weapon based as they offer all those Weapon Katas and ones like Zanji are loaded with Weapon Katas as a result).

Then again when you're mostly building for your own amusement you're free to make a Worldly Martial Artist with Ninjitsu and top him off with a Gizmoteer program like Locksmith and Security Systems to go with his Military: Basic, Basic: Languages, and Basic: Cultural.

You could legally miss it pretty close with a Worldly Martial Artist who settles for Monkey Style Kung Fu instead: start off with four Martial Art powers and keep leveling up to pretty much the same combo as Ninjutsu -- the same Zenjoriki power, the same number of Katas (covering the same weapons), and the same Arts of Invisibility plus the same Body Hardening exercises, say. You'd likewise drop into a low and off-center stance, ready to leap or somersault or cartwheel or backflip as required, and so long as he passes up the more damaging double-knuckle punches he can intersperse the same knife-hand blows and palm strikes with the same kick attacks and tripping/leg hooks in between wrapping folks up in all the same holds, all while drawing on bonuses that equal or better the Ninja when it comes to parry and dodge and leap/somersault/cartwheel/backflip and so on -- except with more attacks per round and an automatic dodge.

Point is, it could look a lot the same as Ninjutsu when empty-handed or using ancient weapons -- but he'd still be a scuba-diving gizmoteer who can plant explosives or listening devices in between expertly gunning folks down from a safe distance, or whatever. So if you want enough skill at electronic countermeasures to locate your target, playing locksmith after engineering your way past the alarms before invisibly dealing out critical strikes and knockouts from behind -- hey, who's going to stop you?

[Regularguy]

Just curious what everyone's favorite OCC from Ninjas and Superspies is and why. Is it because the OCC can be configured with skill programs in a variety of ways, because you just find the concept just that cool, or some other reason?

Just bumping this back up to post my response: the Wired Agent, for both reasons.

Give him time to MacGyver something up, he can play gizmoteer. Give him none, he can draw on the mystical powers of some ancient martial art. Give him a mission where he'd need professional espionage training on top of military skills to only almost get the job done, and -- well, that's more than enough, since he's just playing delivery system for the bionic parts under his skin.

There's a big fine variety of ways the OCC can get configured -- and, conceptually, that's why he strikes me as the only guy who truly gets it: in a world where all of that stuff really works, why reject any of it?

[Nightmask]

wu shih.

chi magic just rocks, china is fascinating, and their myth and legends are easily as colorfull and exotic than any in the world, if not more so! The art of feng shih is so fun to think about and is a whole new way of looking at the world, very similar to the way WHITE WOLF game studios looked at the Umbra's reflections of the physical world in very similar ways.

If only Wu Shih weren't restricted to 3rd level as a MA, when outside of a few other OCC also in that book no other OCC is restricted from advancing their MA training, including all the other spellcasters in Palladium (including the two other spellcasters in the same book). Makes zero sense to me how everyone else manages to continue to get better at fighting as they advance in level while learning all sorts of other new things but somehow the Wu Shih doesn't. Definitely one of the badly written and thought-out parts of an otherwise excellent book (along with the pitiful PPE available and so badly nerfed on acquiring PPE as to make one wonder how nearly any of the mid to higher level spells exist when no one would have the PPE required to learn and cast them).

[Nekira Sudacne]

wu shih.

chi magic just rocks, china is fascinating, and their myth and legends are easily as colorfull and exotic than any in the world, if not more so! The art of feng shih is so fun to think about and is a whole new way of looking at the world, very similar to the way WHITE WOLF game studios looked at the Umbra's reflections of the physical world in very similar ways.

If only Wu Shih weren't restricted to 3rd level as a MA, when outside of a few other OCC also in that book no other OCC is restricted from advancing their MA training, including all the other spellcasters in Palladium (including the two other spellcasters in the same book). Makes zero sense to me how everyone else manages to continue to get better at fighting as they advance in level while learning all sorts of other new things but somehow the Wu Shih doesn't. Definitely one of the badly written and thought-out parts of an otherwise excellent book (along with the pitiful PPE available and so badly nerfed on acquiring PPE as to make one wonder how nearly any of the mid to higher level spells exist when no one would have the PPE required to learn and cast them).

Ya know, it's highly likely that the limited PPE was a deliberate attempt to force them into being a more ritual caster? It wasn't a mistake, they just deliberatly wanted the experiance of playing a Wu Shih to be something that had to be carefully planned.

Also: you don't need to have enough PPE to cast a spell to learn it.

I'll agree, however, they're definatly not a spellslinger type. they're ment to be prepared in advance.

I'll also note, though, that Vajra's make great PPE batteries.

[Nightmask]

wu shih.

chi magic just rocks, china is fascinating, and their myth and legends are easily as colorfull and exotic than any in the world, if not more so! The art of feng shih is so fun to think about and is a whole new way of looking at the world, very similar to the way WHITE WOLF game studios looked at the Umbra's reflections of the physical world in very similar ways.

If only Wu Shih weren't restricted to 3rd level as a MA, when outside of a few other OCC also in that book no other OCC is restricted from advancing their MA training, including all the other spellcasters in Palladium (including the two other spellcasters in the same book). Makes zero sense to me how everyone else manages to continue to get better at fighting as they advance in level while learning all sorts of other new things but somehow the Wu Shih doesn't. Definitely one of the badly written and thought-out parts of an otherwise excellent book (along with the pitiful PPE available and so badly nerfed on acquiring PPE as to make one wonder how nearly any of the mid to higher level spells exist when no one would have the PPE required to learn and cast them).

Ya know, it's highly likely that the limited PPE was a deliberate attempt to force them into being a more ritual caster? It wasn't a mistake, they just deliberatly wanted the experiance of playing a Wu Shih to be something that had to be carefully planned.

Also: you don't need to have enough PPE to cast a spell to learn it.

I'll agree, however, they're definatly not a spellslinger type. they're ment to be prepared in advance.

I'll also note, though, that Vajra's make great PPE batteries.

Except Ritual spell-casting isn't a thing one can make use of in Mystic China, they state that a Chi mage can't tap into the PPE of others in thing like Rituals, they need some kind of PPE battery or a god or demon of some sort to 'gift' them with the PPE to make it happen. Almost all methods of PPE enhancement are blocked to them otherwise, they can't even make use of celestial events and ley lines as they effectively don't exist in the setting (which gives the contrary notion of how its a 'mystic' setting when virtually no mystical energy actually exists to support the idea). Which also makes creating a Vajra problematic given the PPE cost involved in creating even the 'cheap' ones. It's like all the things you can do wrong when providing a character stuffed into one OCC.

It's like how psionics is often nerfed if its introduced into a fantasy game like D&D because 'duh psionics isn't fantasy!' thinking to make it inferior to magic. The Wu Shih has almost no PPE to power spells, almost no means of acquiring more, no ability to advance in combat ability for when he's quickly depleted of PPE/Chi, and just seems like a really missed moment to make sure you played an 'acceptable' OCC like the Demon Hunter and deal with things by straightforward bashing instead of great mystic moments and cool opportunities for the Wu Shih to contribute. As it is he contributes almost nothing, as everyone surpasses him in combat ability and skill and his spell selection quickly becomes limited to low-level spells that can't in most cases do much to protect, attack, or help in other ways. Which is a crying shame.

[Regularguy]

Yea they dont make it easy to gether PPE, and the normal method for gathering PPE the wu does not know, however the martial arts selections they give you, wich start and end at 3rd level are your key to aquiring PPE, by converting it from chi. So to make a strong wu, you must focus on builiding his chi to the max possable, and choose the art forms that will give you the ability to get chi mastery abilities of Dragon chi,(or dark chi) and chi overchaging. The spell copnvet chi to PPE is needed and easily gained.

poa chih artform gives you 3 chi mastery abilities right off the bat, and cool animus abilities. tai chi also grants you 3 chi mastery abilities and doubles your existing chi.

now I get the spell make mystic vajra....

Wouldn't it be more efficient to use the spell that makes a piece of celestial calligraphy? You could (a) use it to store the highest-PPE spell you could inscribe for later release -- but could instead (b) merely use it as a PPE receptacle at some future time, adding it to your by-then-replenished PPE to cast an especially nifty spell?

So, uh, figure a middle-of-the-road PE of 12, figure the Wu Shih takes the right initial skills to boost that to a 15; that's 15 Chi plus another 15 for taking Tai Chi, that's 30; double it to 60 because your Tai Chi is at 3rd level, double that to 120 with Chi Overcharge; spend 6 Chi to convert the remaining 114 into 19 points of PPE for immediate use; figure you rolled perfectly average to start with a PPE of 31, that's 50 PPE to work with at 1st level: spend 6 PPE making the celestial calligraphy, and put the other 40 PPE into making it an Invoke Third Eye calligraphy.

It shouldn't take long to restock yourself back up to 31 PPE and 120 Chi (especially if you've got Discorporate as your initial Zenjorike), at which point you can work with 50 PPE plus the 40 PPE stored in that first piece of calligraphy: spend 6 PPE making a second piece of calligraphy, putting 75 PPE into making it an Evoke Animus Of Elemental Metal calligraphy.

Some time later, you could restock your PPE and Chi and do a conversion to work with 50 PPE plus the 75 PPE stored in that second piece of calligraphy: spending 6 PPE making a third piece of calligraphy, putting 100 PPE into an Impose Moving Area calligraphy -- possibly to later bootstrap 125 PPE into a Spit Dragon Pearl calligraphy?

That ain't bad for 1st level. When you're 6th level, figure (a) you've gotten the mere average 7-point Wu Shih boost to both PPE and Chi, and (b) know how to work an Invoke Animus Of Pure Chi to collect a bonus point of negative chi every round for your use in casting spells; that gives you 81 points to work with, plus 125 stored in the calligraphy, to spend 6 PPE making a calligraphy by putting 200 PPE into making it a Detach Animus calligraphy.

If, by 15th level, you've got a little over 100 PPE of your own to work with plus the 200 PPE stored in a piece of calligraphy, you can either cast a 300 PPE spell or make a 300 PPE piece of Open Hell Gate calligraphy (which you can later use to fuel even a 400 PPE spell like Weep Beans Of Life).

And if you set up a Chi Cache, spending 100 PPE to store a 300 PPE spell effect inside yourself, you can later instantly disassemble it; half the PPE will be recovered. So that 150 PPE plus the 300 PPE in your piece of calligraphy plus the 100 or so you've got to work with -- that's Enter The Divine Realm Of The Jade Emperor territory, right? (And if you ever learn how to write that spell as calligraphy, you could cast Remove Heart and even Draw Helix Of Dragon Summoning in short order -- leaving only Draw Yin Yang symbol outside your expertise?)

[Regularguy]

That would be awsome if the spell could be used as a PPE batery. As for efficiancy I wasnt really going for that, was just trying to show that a player character could make a vajra with just his own PPE and the chimastery abilities the wu has at his disposal

nice ideas though!

Thanks. Also, since the Wu Shih starts out with 3rd-level skill, I figure he doesn't need to worry overmuch about being competitive at 1st level (when the standard-progression guys only have 1st-level skill) or 2nd level (likewise) or 3rd level (when they finally catch up to him), and is probably still on a par with 'em when they're all at 4th level: what's better, having 4th-level skill in a martial art or 3rd-level skill plus an extra Art of Invisibility power and an extra Chi Mastery power and a bonus Zenjorike power?

So I figure the Wu Shih only needs to really start bringing the high-powered spellcasting (by way of drawing on the PPE stored in calligraphy) when they're all maybe at 5th or 6th level...

[Nightmask]

That would be awsome if the spell could be used as a PPE batery. As for efficiancy I wasnt really going for that, was just trying to show that a player character could make a vajra with just his own PPE and the chimastery abilities the wu has at his disposal

nice ideas though!

Thanks. Also, since the Wu Shih starts out with 3rd-level skill, I figure he doesn't need to worry overmuch about being competitive at 1st level (when the standard-progression guys only have 1st-level skill) or 2nd level (likewise) or 3rd level (when they finally catch up to him), and is probably still on a par with 'em when they're all at 4th level: what's better, having 4th-level skill in a martial art or 3rd-level skill plus an extra Art of Invisibility power and an extra Chi Mastery power and a bonus Zenjorike power?

So I figure the Wu Shih only needs to really start bringing the high-powered spellcasting (by way of drawing on the PPE stored in calligraphy) when they're all maybe at 5th or 6th level...

true, but the basic idea of Wu is NOT combat. the styles they can choose reflect this heavily, as snake style is the only thing close to a deadly art form in their list. The others are mostly soft forms of martial arts, so from my experiance and the way me and my groups have made martial artists, yea first level he can hold his own...but the guy wth the dedicated form and the secondairy form just dominates the punching mooks heads roll. I think they deliberatly made wu not so great in combat to force the players to focus on the.....CHI!!!!!! and bringing the MAGIC.

And then nerfed their access to Chi and magic so they aren't much of anything. The DMA with the same MA as the Wu Shih is going to end up with endlessly advancing Chi and end up a better master of Chi than the Wu Shih, who won't even be a great master of spell magic. Just wrong on so many levels. There shouldn't be any restriction on the advancement of the Wu Shih's MA, it just makes no sense at all that they can't learn to fight better when everyone else including a conventional magic user can, especially when they haven't got the most combat-oriented of MA available to them.

[Regularguy]

And then nerfed their access to Chi and magic so they aren't much of anything. The DMA with the same MA as the Wu Shih is going to end up with endlessly advancing Chi and end up a better master of Chi than the Wu Shih, who won't even be a great master of spell magic.

And the DMA won't have any spell magic; he can eventually build up a lot of chi, but will never get the ability of a 1st-level Wu Shih to funnel that chi into assorted effects. Solve a crime with View Ghost Drama? No. Knock out the opposition's guns and cars with a circle of non-ignition? Nope. Inscribe celestial calligraphy for your buddies? Never. You can't so much as fly with a stream of chi; this guy does that in his spare time from using a one-two of Tung Tien to whisk himself and his teammates halfway around the world on a moment's notice. You can't so much as purify the ingredients of your food and water; this guy does, sure as he exhales an acidic fog that eats through metals in between whipping up an electrostatic fog to gently knock out computers and robotics. Want to turn invisible against multiple observers, or get useful information by bringing a forest to life? Want to create poisons while empty-handed, or wipe out a whole community with instant disease? Not really a job for the DMA, but it's all in a day's work for the Wu Shih.

And you're getting older every year; he just weeps himself a bean of life every couple of decades to stay forever young and vital -- at least until he feels ready to Enter The Divine Realm Of The Jade Emperor, possibly after years of firing up Summon And Control Infernal whenever he's needed someone to do his dirty work for him. He's not overpowered compared to the DMA, but I'm not entirely sure he's underpowered.

[Nightmask]

And then nerfed their access to Chi and magic so they aren't much of anything. The DMA with the same MA as the Wu Shih is going to end up with endlessly advancing Chi and end up a better master of Chi than the Wu Shih, who won't even be a great master of spell magic.

And the DMA won't have any spell magic; he can eventually build up a lot of chi, but will never get the ability of a 1st-level Wu Shih to funnel that chi into assorted effects. Solve a crime with View Ghost Drama? No. Knock out the opposition's guns and cars with a circle of non-ignition? Nope. Inscribe celestial calligraphy for your buddies? Never. You can't so much as fly with a stream of chi; this guy does that in his spare time from using a one-two of Tung Tien to whisk himself and his teammates halfway around the world on a moment's notice. You can't so much as purify the ingredients of your food and water; this guy does, sure as he exhales an acidic fog that eats through metals in between whipping up an electrostatic fog to gently knock out computers and robotics. Want to turn invisible against multiple observers, or get useful information by bringing a forest to life? Want to create poisons while empty-handed, or wipe out a whole community with instant disease? Not really a job for the DMA, but it's all in a day's work for the Wu Shih.

And you're getting older every year; he just weeps himself a bean of life every couple of decades to stay forever young and vital -- at least until he feels ready to Enter The Divine Realm Of The Jade Emperor, possibly after years of firing up Summon And Control Infernal whenever he's needed someone to do his dirty work for him. He's not overpowered compared to the DMA, but I'm not entirely sure he's underpowered.

The DMA (and any other OCC with such chi advancement for that matter) is going to have chi skills/attacks that are going to continue to grow in power as the amount of chi available increases, unlike the Wu Shih who's gonig to see almost no advancement, just a few d6 over their 15 levels of possible growth. Said forest isn't a given at coming to life (it can choose to refuse to do so), and the Wu Shih isn't going to be creating those beans of life because they require 400 PPE to create, over 10 times the PPE available to a Wu Shih, and they aren't going to provide you more than an extra 25 years of life on top of your normal max you aren't going to be stacking those bonuses from the beans even if you could produce them (and the GM even let you learn the spell). Even if he had the PPE and access to the spell to cast Enter The Divine Realm of the Jade Emperor if he's been summoning and using Infernals for years he's likely to not find a friendly reception.

[Regularguy]

Said forest isn't a given at coming to life (it can choose to refuse to do so), and the Wu Shih isn't going to be creating those beans of life because they require 400 PPE to create, over 10 times the PPE available to a Wu Shih, and they aren't going to provide you more than an extra 25 years of life on top of your normal max you aren't going to be stacking those bonuses from the beans even if you could produce them (and the GM even let you learn the spell). Even if he had the PPE and access to the spell to cast Enter The Divine Realm of the Jade Emperor if he's been summoning and using Infernals for years he's likely to not find a friendly reception.

Well, (a) that still leaves all the other stuff you copy-and-pasted -- solving impossible crimes with View Ghost Drama, whisking the team halfway around the world with Tung Tien, rendering gunpowder and car batteries and robotics useless, turning invisible, drawing on the power of flight, whipping up acids and poisons and disease, inscribing celestial calligraphy for your buddies, and et cetera, which is still pretty terrific.

But (b) I'm not sure I agree about the Beans Of Life spell, which 1st-level Wu Shihs can of course take as an initial selection; the description merely states the following: "Any character so treated will be perfectly healed and gain an additional twenty-five years of youthful life and vitality." So long as a Wu Shih counts as "any character", I see no reason why he wouldn't gain "an additional twenty-five years of youthful life and vitality" from each bean -- well, so long as he can get his hands on 400 PPE once every twenty-five years or so, which seems easy enough if you inscribe ahead of time for to draw on the PPE you've stored in a piece of celestial calligraphy.

Also, (c) just how seriously will folks in the Divine Realm object to Infernals having being put to work doing good? Shucks, the Taoist alignment is all about ignoring the law and the rules whenever you feel you can get away with it, taking advantage of defenseless foes in between cheating and torturing whenever necessary; what counts is helping those in need and making fun of authority; typically, an Enlightened Immortal visiting the place "always manages to be offensive, embarrassing, or just plain insulting" and "will laugh uproariously" if the Jade Emperor starts to speak about "the whole point" of the talk. They're just here to do good, is all.

But, yes, (d) as to whether the trees "are likely to be very happy and curious" because "each tree-person understands that this is a very rare event and that they might never have another chance to be a mobile human, they try to get the most out of the experience", such that they "tend to be cooperative" and "readily share information", you're absoultely right that it's not a given; we're merely told that young ones "will start playing as if they'd never has the chance to play before" and that old ones "will be the equivalent of a Taoist Enlightened Immortal in attitude and power." Even a Wu Shih can't win 'em all.