Juicers Without Downsides

[Damian Magecraft]

Because the class almost never comes to mind for me and frankly I didn't see a need to list a few dozen classes to make my point. Or are you trying to imply something there? Can't tell since unlike some I don't just assume negative intent about someone just because they like something I don't or suggest something that looks dead wrong to me is the end all and be all about something. Going to run down a list of character classes I didn't mention and try and imply failing to mention them must mean something terrible, then top it off with 'well see you didn't list all of those because you're really an 'insert derogatory gamer term here' so have no valid opinion to discuss.

Again out of your list of downsides they pale in comparison to certain death. Not might be killed, like all your suggestions (and a GM who was making that a certain kill no hope of resisting being captured or sacrificed the GM would be reviled as a Killer GM), but certain, no chance of escaping it without taking other decidedly unacceptable options and reverting to 1st level while everyone else is much higher.

reverting to 1st?
so you magically loose all your skills when you detox? Really? where does it say that?
I dont think you really understand how the process works at all.
All your arguments revolve around repeating how "unfair" it is to die or detox...
These are the arguments presented by "extreme" power gamers.
Try a new approach...
one that does not involve you repeating endlessly how unfair death is. You have flagellated that equine enough.

*laughs* Never gamed with me in your life and because I disagree with your point I 'must' be a power gamer because anyone who disagrees with you must be. No other option can exist like say simply not agreeing with you. Because only a really elitist sort would try and slap a power gaming label onto someone for thinking a particular character class shouldn't have a death sentence on it because the limited life span does NOTHING of value for the character and removing it does NOTHING to give the character any power. Zero. Zip. Not one iota more power or ability than the character had with the limited lifespan and you can't for a second honestly argue otherwise because if so then every other class is a twink power gamer class and ONLY the Juicer is proper and fair because only it dies before everyone else.

Given the Juicer has to switch classes if he survives detoxing yes he starts over at first level. No his existing skills don't magically vanish but unless they're part of his new class they're stuck where they are and many take a skill hit from seeing all of his physical abilities reduced.

In any case if you're going to toss out labels like power gamer rather than credibly discuss something because it's easier to simply write someone off rather than respect that they have an opinion that's as important as yours (and the disrespect showing you don't care to have your opinion taken seriously) really no point further responding to you. Haven't found anyone who so casually tosses such labels around particularly people they've never gamed with and have NO FOUNDATION for doing so as having worthwhile opinions. They're too obsessed with evaluating everything as being 'power gaming' or 'twink' or 'munchkin' to actually consider something rationally. Too fanatically devoted to finding such things which like any fanatic will find it anywhere and everywhere even where it doesn't exist, in fact they often find it where it doesn't exist.

The fact that you leaped to the conclusion that the quote "these are the arguments of an "extreme" power gamer" as a direct attack on you is very telling.
Read that sentence again. (I am an English precisionist my words only convey the exact meanings not inferences.)
I never once said you are a "twink, munchkin, roll player" (you copped to that all on your own) I said you are presenting the arguments of one (complete with the "waaahhh, this rule is unfair" tactic); which does nothing to support your claim that removing the limited life span does not detract from the class.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

yes , use drugs and live a normal life span, super power Charlie sheen and he doesnt have any "problems" right.

unless the character is in a merc group or has a kingdom paying for repairs, that money is coming out of his pocket, and if your broke and you need repairs I'm sure you could earn it the old fashion way , with the Orge who wants to spend "private" time with you.

[Damian Magecraft]

Read the rules. A line walker can take MONTHS to learn a single spell.

Months to learn one spell? Which spell? What rule?

2 Days per level of Spell. At best 1 month (30 days for a level 15 spell).
There are ways around that however (it still plays out as 2 days per spell level for the mage however).

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Read the rules. A line walker can take MONTHS to learn a single spell.

Months to learn one spell? Which spell? What rule?

2 Days per level of Spell. At best 1 month (30 days for a level 15 spell).
There are ways around that however (it still plays out as 2 days per spell level for the mage however).

those damn rules again always getting in the way

[boxee]

Hum I thought that RUE supersceeded old material on the same subject, juicers are updated.

[Damian Magecraft]

Hum I thought that RUE supersceeded old material on the same subject, juicers are updated.

RUE supersedes RMB. JU has not been updated and it is still considered canon material.
Plus the sideeffects listed pages 13 through 16 of JU are additional material to further flesh out the class.

[RainOfSteel]

A line walker can take MONTHS to learn a single spell.

Months to learn one spell? Which spell? What rule?

2 Days per level of Spell. At best 1 month (30 days for a level 15 spell).
There are ways around that however (it still plays out as 2 days per spell level for the mage however).

30 days for a level 15 spell does not equal months of learning for a single spell.

[Killer Cyborg]

Given the Juicer has to switch classes if he survives detoxing yes he starts over at first level. No his existing skills don't magically vanish but unless they're part of his new class they're stuck where they are and many take a skill hit from seeing all of his physical abilities reduced.

They're not necessarily stuck right where they are; there's always bionic conversion.
Depending on the GM, maybe even the option to go Crazy.

And while there might be problems with switching OCCs for whatever reason, there are advantages too. You get new skills and abilities even though the old ones are frozen; it's a chance to make the character more versatile.

You can argue that the downsides of other classes pale in comparison to being a Juicer, but that's just a matter of opinion.
Some people think that going insane (Crazy) would be worse than dying.
Some people think that becoming an inhuman machine that loses 45-65% of their sense of touch would be worse than death.
Some people think that being actively hunted by the Coalition would be worse.
Some people even think that being an ordinary person is worse than living as a superhuman for a few years then dying.

You're welcome to your opinion, but don't expect everybody else to share in it, nor for anybody else to take your personal opinion as proof of anything other than what your personal opinion is.


Meanwhile, if you took away the issues with detox and the lifespan, what would happen?
-There's be no reason for the process to be illegal.
-There'd be no reason for most humans NOT to undergo the conversion. It'd be the norm for CS troops who weren't complete cannon fodder.
-It'd be the norm for a lot of people in a lot of areas, pretty much any place where they had the money to invest.

The setting of Rifts Earth would drastically change, and it wouldn't be the same game.
For some, it could be an improvement, but for others it wouldn't be, and it would certainly change the tone of the game.

[Nightmask]

So the game must remain static, nothing ever improving or changing? Well other than if a published change comes along naturally. There should be room for change, even drastic change if the PC group has the skill and the will to make it happen. The GM shouldn't be railroading things because he wants to keep things all neat and limited: remember it's not just his game it's the game of the players too and they should have some say in things. It's not just the GM's toy and seeing to it the players never or almost never get to really enjoy it or make any kind of headway is a good way to a dead game with the GM rolling dice and playing for himself or a few diehards.

[Giant2005]

It seems everyone who says a Juicer without his death sentence is a bad thing thinks so because they like to RP the death sentence.
What if the Juicer Augmentation didn't give the character a death sentence but instead gave them an affective disorder akin to the Death Wish.

Would that satisfy you? Or are your complaints more the fact that you just don't want to see the rules change because they are there?

[Lord_Dalgard]

Chello!

It's effectively "flavor text". I know (or have heard of) very few campaigns that went on long enough for mortality to become a factor.

QFT. That's why I voted no difference.

[Giant2005]

It seems everyone who says a Juicer without his death sentence is a bad thing thinks so because they like to RP the death sentence.
What if the Juicer Augmentation didn't give the character a death sentence but instead gave them an affective disorder akin to the Death Wish.

Would that satisfy you? Or are your complaints more the fact that you just don't want to see the rules change because they are there?

It's not a matter of not wanting rule changes, there are lots of things I would love to see changed. Personally I like the fact that you are trading something for something. I am getting near superhuman power for the price of my life, that's what makes the juicer fun to play.

But if your character thinks he is getting superhuman power for the price of his life, what is the difference?

[Giant2005]

It seems everyone who says a Juicer without his death sentence is a bad thing thinks so because they like to RP the death sentence.
What if the Juicer Augmentation didn't give the character a death sentence but instead gave them an affective disorder akin to the Death Wish.

Would that satisfy you? Or are your complaints more the fact that you just don't want to see the rules change because they are there?

It's not a matter of not wanting rule changes, there are lots of things I would love to see changed. Personally I like the fact that you are trading something for something. I am getting near superhuman power for the price of my life, that's what makes the juicer fun to play.

But if your character thinks he is getting superhuman power for the price of his life, what is the difference?

There is a difference between knowing I am going to eventually die and wanting to die because I don't think I deserve to live.

Well that's why I wrote akin to Death Wish, not specifically death wish.
There isn't really any listed insanity that can describe what I intended but it was the closest.

What I meant is for your character to know he is going to die in 5-6 years, without the actual dying part.

[Balabanto]

The problem is GM fairness. If one guy is playing a juicer and another guy is playing a mage, this can't be balanced properly. The mage needs lots of time to go off and do research. Well, the Juicer is going to want to do something every day to make the most of the time he's got. This is not really balancable. How many sessions will the mage be sitting on his butt while the Juicer runs around and does things?

Some people will say "The answer is for someone not to play a mage." or "The answer is for someone not to play a juicer." That's nice. These games are about having fun. If the game becomes not fun because the Juicer isn't getting what he wants or the Mage isn't getting what he wants, one of these two characters will have to leave. That's a little scummy, as far as I'm concerned. Plus, it creates unnecessary player animosity, where either you have a mage that kind of sucks because he can never research anything, or a Juicer who has like six adventures in his life because the mage can't learn any new magic. This is not conducive to out of game harmony.

We've never had a problem with things like this in our game. What exactly are Mages going off to research?

Pretty sure he means the 2 days per spell level that it takes to learn a new spell. With a Juicer in the game that would be quite significant - it takes a whole month to learn a new spell. A mage who actively learns new spells is going to be killing his Juicer buddy.

Bingo

[Balabanto]

Read the rules. A line walker can take MONTHS to learn a single spell.

Months to learn one spell? Which spell? What rule?

Two days per spell level, minimum. The GM can assign additional penalties if he wishes. It takes about two weeks to learn a 7th level spell, during which time your juicer is going stir crazy and killing people.

Kevin has OPENLY said that rewards for playing mages should not be solely money, it should be LEARNING NEW MAGIC.

This being said, it means that the Juicer's disadvantages should belong to the JUICER! The juicer should not be a walking disadvantage to other character classes.

The same, in this case, goes for the Crazy. Let's say you play a crazy, and you level up. You roll "Hates and Fears Giant Robots." So your robot pilot wakes up one morning, and there's the Crazy, giggling and screaming "Got you!" as he fires grenade after grenade into his brand new Samas.

These sorts of things are NOT FUN. This is written in all caps on purpose.

IMHO, both the juicer and the crazy need to have disadvantages that affect them more, and other character types less.

[Damian Magecraft]

Read the rules. A line walker can take MONTHS to learn a single spell.

Months to learn one spell? Which spell? What rule?

Two days per spell level, minimum. The GM can assign additional penalties if he wishes. It takes about two weeks to learn a 7th level spell, during which time your juicer is going stir crazy and killing people.

Kevin has OPENLY said that rewards for playing mages should not be solely money, it should be LEARNING NEW MAGIC.

This being said, it means that the Juicer's disadvantages should belong to the JUICER! The juicer should not be a walking disadvantage to other character classes.

The same, in this case, goes for the Crazy. Let's say you play a crazy, and you level up. You roll "Hates and Fears Giant Robots." So your robot pilot wakes up one morning, and there's the Crazy, giggling and screaming "Got you!" as he fires grenade after grenade into his brand new Samas.

These sorts of things are NOT FUN. This is written in all caps on purpose.

IMHO, both the juicer and the crazy need to have disadvantages that affect them more, and other character types less.

Actually a mage can learn a new spell in less than an hour relative to the party. (relative to the mage its still 2 days per level of the spell.)
if you are going to complain something is unfair make sure you know exactly what you are talking about first.

[Killer Cyborg]

So the game must remain static, nothing ever improving or changing?

You're not even trying, are you?

[Killer Cyborg]

It seems everyone who says a Juicer without his death sentence is a bad thing thinks so because they like to RP the death sentence.
What if the Juicer Augmentation didn't give the character a death sentence but instead gave them an affective disorder akin to the Death Wish.

That'd be too much like the Crazy OCC.

It might be possible to come up with a different downside for the Juicer conversion process that would fulfill the same role as the existing one(s), but why bother?
What we have already both works and makes sense.

[Kagashi]

Makes no difference. I have never played a single character over five years of game time.

[Wōdwulf Seaxaning]

GM's have the ability to wave their wand at anything they want. If a GM wants to waive the burnout, he or she can do so. Or they can extend it to something both player and GM see as reasonable.

Personally, I think their guaranteed shorter lifespan makes them infinitely more interesting to roleplay. If all you care about are the stats there other OCC/RCC's to choose from.

It's not all about the stats, there are interesting possibilities for Roleplaying such a character. I mean think about it, he's got the Holy Grail all Juicers want. Whether it was forced onto him or he lucked into it he's got what so many would want and he likely knows about it. How does it affect him? Consider when he's around an OCC Juicer: he's looking at someone just like him but who is going to die from what he has but the Juicer RCC will be just fine. Does he feel pity, superiority, compassion? Does he perhaps try and find a way to help other Juicers? Does he try and find some horribly evil bargain he can make with the Gene-Splicer that created him to modify at least some other Juicers to be like him, sacrificing himself so others can have that boon? Does he start feeling like a god because he's so superior to normal humans and attempt to dominate everyone around him? So many possibilities unexplored.

Do you know who one of my favorite historical figures was out of the Old West? John Henry Holliday DDS, aka Doc Holliday. He was an interesting figure because of the key characteristic that made him so damn deadly later in life; he had no fear of death. The man was dying of TB and knew it. He was a dead man walking cramming in as much life as he could in what little life he had left, frequently drunk on alcohol and and high as a kite on laudanum. I suspect his aim was to die like a man in a blaze of glory. As per the old west saying, he wanted to die with his boots on. But because of the fearless, brutal way he engaged in all his fights, the man passed in bed at a hospital undefeated by all save the disease that made him who he was. His last words, looking at his bootless feet, were "Now that's funny." He lived fast, tried to die hard, and burnt out at an early age (36).

By extension, that is the way I see a Juicer living his life. He knows his days are numbered and has very few left to live life to the fullest. But in accepting his impending death, he has no fear of it. They are dead men walking and accept their fate. It's the life they chose in exchange for the opportunity to be the stars that shine twice as brightly, only to burn out that much sooner.

Take away that limited mortality, and you take away the OCC's true defining characteristic.

I couldn't say it better myself... kudos I vote to keep the limited lifespan.

[Damian Magecraft]

Makes no difference. I have never played a single character over five years of game time.

I have a ton of characters that have been in play over 5 years game time.

Psst...
Shini...
he did not mean five years of actual play... (j/k)

@Kagashi: I have chars that have been around since 101 pa (its 109 now IIRC) thats 8 years game time.
so it is possible.

[Nightmask]

I'm with the majority on this one, since 69% said it would make it worse when I posted.

The whole point of the Juicer class is to be more than human but you get to keep your humanity and sanity (mostly) but the trade off is the short life span. Juicers aren't fearless only because of the drugs, there might not be a tomorrow so they go all out today. If you made a Juicer who could live for 90 years then Juicers would probably say "I run down the stairs super fast to catch the guy who jumped out the third story window. You can't be too careful, you know?"

Cautious behavior has nothing to do with having a normal lifespan, they've entire TV series dedicated to people who're in their teens and twenties doing totally moronic and dangerous things for the thrill. Juicers are all about the thrill and power of their newfound condition, it's not that shortened lifespan that's what defining them but that power. They aren't going to change one whit with regards to how reckless they behave just because they can live longer. If you're cautious you're going to be cautious even as a Juicer (Can't go wasting my days, I haven't very many of them now got to make each one count) if you aren't you're going to remain just as reckless (oh man this is the best! I'm going to fight each day to be sure I live the high life right up to I die of old age man!). So I really can't see why so many obsess on the limited lifespan as what the Juicer is about, as if all the power that comes with it isn't what it's really about which in fact it is all about that Juicer power and NOT the short lifespan.

In a world where you can be killed at any time by some monster or the CS the average human is not particularly assured of making it into his 50s let alone to his 90s. Everyone to a degree on some level already has to live with the shadow of death at any moment and face that and choose how to live. There's nothing special about 'Oh Juicers they just aren't the same if they've the same life span as everyone else'. Wrong. They're all about the power and living in the now because you can't ever be certain of the future and living 5 years of 50 years as a Juicer isn't going to change that.

[Damian Magecraft]

I'm with the majority on this one, since 69% said it would make it worse when I posted.

The whole point of the Juicer class is to be more than human but you get to keep your humanity and sanity (mostly) but the trade off is the short life span. Juicers aren't fearless only because of the drugs, there might not be a tomorrow so they go all out today. If you made a Juicer who could live for 90 years then Juicers would probably say "I run down the stairs super fast to catch the guy who jumped out the third story window. You can't be too careful, you know?"

Cautious behavior has nothing to do with having a normal lifespan, they've entire TV series dedicated to people who're in their teens and twenties doing totally moronic and dangerous things for the thrill. Juicers are all about the thrill and power of their newfound condition, it's not that shortened lifespan that's what defining them but that power. They aren't going to change one whit with regards to how reckless they behave just because they can live longer. If you're cautious you're going to be cautious even as a Juicer (Can't go wasting my days, I haven't very many of them now got to make each one count) if you aren't you're going to remain just as reckless (oh man this is the best! I'm going to fight each day to be sure I live the high life right up to I die of old age man!). So I really can't see why so many obsess on the limited lifespan as what the Juicer is about, as if all the power that comes with it isn't what it's really about which in fact it is all about that Juicer power and NOT the short lifespan.

In a world where you can be killed at any time by some monster or the CS the average human is not particularly assured of making it into his 50s let alone to his 90s. Everyone to a degree on some level already has to live with the shadow of death at any moment and face that and choose how to live. There's nothing special about 'Oh Juicers they just aren't the same if they've the same life span as everyone else'. Wrong. They're all about the power and living in the now because you can't ever be certain of the future and living 5 years of 50 years as a Juicer isn't going to change that.

Never mind that I have enough crack, meth, riods, percs, and what not coursing through my system to choke a full grown bull elephant; its unfair that those drugs are shortening my lifespan.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I'm with the majority on this one, since 69% said it would make it worse when I posted.

The whole point of the Juicer class is to be more than human but you get to keep your humanity and sanity (mostly) but the trade off is the short life span. Juicers aren't fearless only because of the drugs, there might not be a tomorrow so they go all out today. If you made a Juicer who could live for 90 years then Juicers would probably say "I run down the stairs super fast to catch the guy who jumped out the third story window. You can't be too careful, you know?"

Cautious behavior has nothing to do with having a normal lifespan, they've entire TV series dedicated to people who're in their teens and twenties doing totally moronic and dangerous things for the thrill. Juicers are all about the thrill and power of their newfound condition, it's not that shortened lifespan that's what defining them but that power. They aren't going to change one whit with regards to how reckless they behave just because they can live longer. If you're cautious you're going to be cautious even as a Juicer (Can't go wasting my days, I haven't very many of them now got to make each one count) if you aren't you're going to remain just as reckless (oh man this is the best! I'm going to fight each day to be sure I live the high life right up to I die of old age man!). So I really can't see why so many obsess on the limited lifespan as what the Juicer is about, as if all the power that comes with it isn't what it's really about which in fact it is all about that Juicer power and NOT the short lifespan.

In a world where you can be killed at any time by some monster or the CS the average human is not particularly assured of making it into his 50s let alone to his 90s. Everyone to a degree on some level already has to live with the shadow of death at any moment and face that and choose how to live. There's nothing special about 'Oh Juicers they just aren't the same if they've the same life span as everyone else'. Wrong. They're all about the power and living in the now because you can't ever be certain of the future and living 5 years of 50 years as a Juicer isn't going to change that.

Never mind that I have enough crack, meth, riods, percs, and what not coursing through my system to choke a full grown bull elephant; its unfair that those drugs are shortening my lifespan.

but i do find the thought of a 100 yr beating the snot out of character in their 20's kinda funny, new character time,Grandpa the juicer

[Balabanto]

I'm with the majority on this one, since 69% said it would make it worse when I posted.

The whole point of the Juicer class is to be more than human but you get to keep your humanity and sanity (mostly) but the trade off is the short life span. Juicers aren't fearless only because of the drugs, there might not be a tomorrow so they go all out today. If you made a Juicer who could live for 90 years then Juicers would probably say "I run down the stairs super fast to catch the guy who jumped out the third story window. You can't be too careful, you know?"

Cautious behavior has nothing to do with having a normal lifespan, they've entire TV series dedicated to people who're in their teens and twenties doing totally moronic and dangerous things for the thrill. Juicers are all about the thrill and power of their newfound condition, it's not that shortened lifespan that's what defining them but that power. They aren't going to change one whit with regards to how reckless they behave just because they can live longer. If you're cautious you're going to be cautious even as a Juicer (Can't go wasting my days, I haven't very many of them now got to make each one count) if you aren't you're going to remain just as reckless (oh man this is the best! I'm going to fight each day to be sure I live the high life right up to I die of old age man!). So I really can't see why so many obsess on the limited lifespan as what the Juicer is about, as if all the power that comes with it isn't what it's really about which in fact it is all about that Juicer power and NOT the short lifespan.

In a world where you can be killed at any time by some monster or the CS the average human is not particularly assured of making it into his 50s let alone to his 90s. Everyone to a degree on some level already has to live with the shadow of death at any moment and face that and choose how to live. There's nothing special about 'Oh Juicers they just aren't the same if they've the same life span as everyone else'. Wrong. They're all about the power and living in the now because you can't ever be certain of the future and living 5 years of 50 years as a Juicer isn't going to change that.

Never mind that I have enough crack, meth, riods, percs, and what not coursing through my system to choke a full grown bull elephant; its unfair that those drugs are shortening my lifespan.

but i do find the thought of a 100 yr beating the snot out of character in their 20's kinda funny, new character time,Grandpa the juicer

You're not the first person to think of this. One of my players actually thought of this. However, due to moving away, he never actually played it.

[Nether]

I honestly don't think it would really change the game one way or another simply for the fact that Juicers tend to die in combat far more often than of old age (for a Juicer at least). Granted, some of those combat deaths can be attributed to the fact that the Juicer knows he's about to face his Last Call and would rather die in a blaze of glory than of bodily failure, however I still think that is pretty rare in Rifts Earth. But that's just me.

Late reply but i think you would completely destroy the character and concept of the juicer by doing that. Its an option for every norm out there to do for crazy benefits and it is usually easy to do and get. It is also a very dramatic character in any sense as they know they have a short time, and it is usually an option of desperation or if forced on them. Knowing you only have a few years to live compounded with super drugs and agression running thru your viewns, you are far more dangerous or devoted because you prolly don~t care that you might die. You will also do crazy shat because of this death sentence.

None of that would be done by a normal soldier that has juicer benefits. It also creates a unique concept, part of what makes so many of the characters of Rifts unique and interesting. Take away the lifespan issue and you destroy what a juicer is. You might as well make a Rifts superhuman as part of a super soldier program if you want the no lifespan so it doesn~t destroy the great concept that is Juicer.

Also i have had a player that played a reg juicer for about a year and then was near the end of his lifespan, and he ended up getting detox and then bioborg~d.

[Nightmask]

I honestly don't think it would really change the game one way or another simply for the fact that Juicers tend to die in combat far more often than of old age (for a Juicer at least). Granted, some of those combat deaths can be attributed to the fact that the Juicer knows he's about to face his Last Call and would rather die in a blaze of glory than of bodily failure, however I still think that is pretty rare in Rifts Earth. But that's just me.

Late reply but i think you would completely destroy the character and concept of the juicer by doing that. Its an option for every norm out there to do for crazy benefits and it is usually easy to do and get. It is also a very dramatic character in any sense as they know they have a short time, and it is usually an option of desperation or if forced on them. Knowing you only have a few years to live compounded with super drugs and agression running thru your viewns, you are far more dangerous or devoted because you prolly don~t care that you might die. You will also do crazy shat because of this death sentence.

None of that would be done by a normal soldier that has juicer benefits. It also creates a unique concept, part of what makes so many of the characters of Rifts unique and interesting. Take away the lifespan issue and you destroy what a juicer is. You might as well make a Rifts superhuman as part of a super soldier program if you want the no lifespan so it doesn~t destroy the great concept that is Juicer.

Also i have had a player that played a reg juicer for about a year and then was near the end of his lifespan, and he ended up getting detox and then bioborg~d.

What do you think the 'entire concept' for a juicer is? Since I'd really like to know why so many seem to think the entire point of being a juicer has nothing to do with being a chemically-augmented superhuman but a drugged up, burned out corpse in a few years. Instead they go on and on about how the only thing that matters or makes up the OCC is an early death and all the rest (super-reflexes, enhanced healing, augmented speed and increased SDC) doesn't have anything to do with the class at all.

[Shark_Force]

What do you think the 'entire concept' for a juicer is? Since I'd really like to know why so many seem to think the entire point of being a juicer has nothing to do with being a chemically-augmented superhuman but a drugged up, burned out corpse in a few years. Instead they go on and on about how the only thing that matters or makes up the OCC is an early death and all the rest (super-reflexes, enhanced healing, augmented speed and increased SDC) doesn't have anything to do with the class at all.

a key part of the concept is increase power, AT A COST. get rid of the cost, and there's no reason every person you meet shouldn't be a juicer. there shouldn't be any such thing as regular infantry, for example; there should only be juicers. it also means that all of your technical personnel should be juicers. why not? now your scientists are just as unstoppable as your regular troops almost.

essentially, if there aren't any drawbacks, it may as well be the baseline for the entire race. no reason for it not to be, after all.

[Nightmask]

What do you think the 'entire concept' for a juicer is? Since I'd really like to know why so many seem to think the entire point of being a juicer has nothing to do with being a chemically-augmented superhuman but a drugged up, burned out corpse in a few years. Instead they go on and on about how the only thing that matters or makes up the OCC is an early death and all the rest (super-reflexes, enhanced healing, augmented speed and increased SDC) doesn't have anything to do with the class at all.

a key part of the concept is increase power, AT A COST. get rid of the cost, and there's no reason every person you meet shouldn't be a juicer. there shouldn't be any such thing as regular infantry, for example; there should only be juicers. it also means that all of your technical personnel should be juicers. why not? now your scientists are just as unstoppable as your regular troops almost.

essentially, if there aren't any drawbacks, it may as well be the baseline for the entire race. no reason for it not to be, after all.

If you look at Triax citizens can make use of the JAEP process to acquire bonuses similar albeit weaker than the standard Juicer and it's quite legal and readily available and yet there's nothing to suggest everyone's running around juiced because they aren't. I think the problem is the insistence that the penalty is an essential part when it isn't. Also just because something is safe doesn't mean everyone's going to do it. If they can't afford it for one, or have personal beliefs that contradict the use of it for another. So no unless you were juicing from infancy on up so they never knew otherwise there's no reason it would become baseline for the race, that's just the meta-gamer arguing things from a gaming standpoint instead of a practical, plausible standpoint.

[Shark_Force]

JAEPS has drawbacks. it's mostly safe, *if* you follow exactly the guidelines. set one foot outside, and you've got problems.

it's main drawback is that you only get to be superman some of the time, and you don't get to split that time up according to your needs. what's more, you're not even really superman some of the time... it's more like you're about equivalent to a really athletic human. put a juicer into combat vs a JAEPS user and see how it goes.

superhuman combat ability is something that you either don't need at all, or that you need to always have available (if not always active). the JAEPS system is, for that reason, simply not useful.

[Nightmask]

JAEPS has drawbacks. it's mostly safe, *if* you follow exactly the guidelines. set one foot outside, and you've got problems.

it's main drawback is that you only get to be superman some of the time, and you don't get to split that time up according to your needs. what's more, you're not even really superman some of the time... it's more like you're about equivalent to a really athletic human. put a juicer into combat vs a JAEPS user and see how it goes.

superhuman combat ability is something that you either don't need at all, or that you need to always have available (if not always active). the JAEPS system is, for that reason, simply not useful.

One would think death in 5-8 years wold qualify as not very useful either, yet that's not the case. The JAEP clearly has draw to it and yes I realize it's got a restricted range of use (6 months on, 6 months off, only one type of enhancement at a time) but it's certainly useful. From a game perspective alone you've plenty of gamers who wish their character had had just another point or two available for their save or dodge that would have saved their now dead character.

[Damian Magecraft]

Aaaaannnnndddd......
*ding ding ding*
There's the bell for round two folks!

[Damian Magecraft]

Mask...
Just admit that you want the benefits without ANY drawbacks...
Your argument that it is unfair is the worst foundation for the basis of your point.

I offered up a variant that was dismissed by you and several others as me being a ham-handed mean spirited GM.
The whole concept of the augmented classes is that power comes at a price.
If you are unwilling to pay the price then do not play the class.
Quit trying convince us that the price is "unfair."

A juicer is loaded up 24/7 on every conceivable chemical substance (and un-conceived ones as well) at levels that provide super-human abilities... and you still maintain that the physical burnout is...
1: Unrealistic (even though the effects of prolonged drug abuse is well documented)
2: Unfair (but the progressive mental decay of the crazy and the progressive dehumanization of the Borg is somehow fair)

These are the arguments of someone who wants something for nothing.
you want a juicer without the side effects?
Make a D-Bee race That gets those benefits...
Oh but wait...
Then it would not be a juicer and that is not the point is it?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Like mack said

The Bio-Comp harness doesn't come with a 401k.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

JAEPS has drawbacks. it's mostly safe, *if* you follow exactly the guidelines. set one foot outside, and you've got problems.

it's main drawback is that you only get to be superman some of the time, and you don't get to split that time up according to your needs. what's more, you're not even really superman some of the time... it's more like you're about equivalent to a really athletic human. put a juicer into combat vs a JAEPS user and see how it goes.

superhuman combat ability is something that you either don't need at all, or that you need to always have available (if not always active). the JAEPS system is, for that reason, simply not useful.

One would think death in 5-8 years wold qualify as not very useful either, yet that's not the case. The JAEP clearly has draw to it and yes I realize it's got a restricted range of use (6 months on, 6 months off, only one type of enhancement at a time) but it's certainly useful. From a game perspective alone you've plenty of gamers who wish their character had had just another point or two available for their save or dodge that would have saved their now dead character.

the price you pay for a character of that type. Rifts Earth is cash and go world, sometimes you pay alittle , sometime you pay with your life

[Nightmask]

Mask...
Just admit that you want the benefits without ANY drawbacks...
Your argument that it is unfair is the worst foundation for the basis of your point.

I said I see no point to the drawback when no other class suffers such drawbacks, and dozens of available classes not only far exceed the Juicer in ability but live far longer than humans do. So I see no value or fairness in that as I've noted multiple times.

I offered up a variant that was dismissed by you and several others as me being a ham-handed mean spirited GM.
The whole concept of the augmented classes is that power comes at a price.
If you are unwilling to pay the price then do not play the class.
Quit trying convince us that the price is "unfair."

Except that's not so, augmented doesn't require an inherent price even if some thing everything just has to have a cost.

A juicer is loaded up 24/7 on every conceivable chemical substance (and un-conceived ones as well) at levels that provide super-human abilities... and you still maintain that the physical burnout is...
1: Unrealistic (even though the effects of prolonged drug abuse is well documented)
2: Unfair (but the progressive mental decay of the crazy and the progressive dehumanization of the Borg is somehow fair)

It's also future tech with access to technology advanced enough to have nanobot repair systems for people, so safe augmentation isn't inherently impossible.

These are the arguments of someone who wants something for nothing.
you want a juicer without the side effects?
Make a D-Bee race That gets those benefits...
Oh but wait...
Then it would not be a juicer and that is not the point is it?

I really need to repeat how I hate that phrase of 'something for nothing', it's really insulting and meant to be derogatory and dismiss out of hand someone for having a different viewpoint than yourself. But as I've already pointed out plenty of times what makes the juicer isn't the penalties, and it seems the only reason everyone else clings to them is because they're there and take any suggestions to the fact that it's the powers not the penalties that define the OCC as if it were a heresy to suggest someone might want the power when they're supposed to want the penalties. Talk about being confused about what is and isn't essential to the class, as it's the powers that make the juicer not the penalties.

[Shark_Force]

One would think death in 5-8 years wold qualify as not very useful either, yet that's not the case.

and again we observe why the drawbacks to being a juicer are central to the concept. the juicer is someone who is selling their later years to power up their current time. there's a reason why not everyone undergoes the process, but only the desperate, the foolhardy, the shortsighted, and those who otherwise feel that the sacrifice is worthwhile and do it knowingly.

it's the whole basis of the juicer 'culture': you're going to die in a few years anyways, so live life to the fullest right now. the main reason it makes sense to be living in the now is because there likely isn't going to be a tomorrow, one way or another. that doesn't make sense for someone who has a full life of superhuman strength, agility, toughness, speed, etc, ahead of them.

you can get a lot of stuff done in 5-8 years if you're motivated. those who juice, generally speaking have the motivation. a father seeking revenge for his children who were killed by bandits. a soldier who pledges to give his life to protect his nation. a thrill-seeker who's greatest fear is to spend years in a wheelchair or worse, a sick-bed, withering away. the desperate man who will give up a lifetime of misery and poverty for a few years of excitement, wealth, and adventure. these are your archetypical juicers when you've got only a few years to live.

in contrast, the archetypical juicer when you remove that drawback? the rich, spoiled brat who doesn't want to spend time exercising. the wealthy businessman who needs more hours in the day. the rogue scholar who needs to be ever watchful in case a coalition patrol comes calling. the powerful magician who has little time to study combat. anyone who can afford it, really. it goes from being an adventurer and warrior with a mission and a limited time to get it done, to being the new sea inquisitor: tack it on to every character, because why not? there's no drawbacks.

[Nightmask]

One would think death in 5-8 years wold qualify as not very useful either, yet that's not the case.

and again we observe why the drawbacks to being a juicer are central to the concept. the juicer is someone who is selling their later years to power up their current time. there's a reason why not everyone undergoes the process, but only the desperate, the foolhardy, the shortsighted, and those who otherwise feel that the sacrifice is worthwhile and do it knowingly.

it's the whole basis of the juicer 'culture': you're going to die in a few years anyways, so live life to the fullest right now. the main reason it makes sense to be living in the now is because there likely isn't going to be a tomorrow, one way or another. that doesn't make sense for someone who has a full life of superhuman strength, agility, toughness, speed, etc, ahead of them.

you can get a lot of stuff done in 5-8 years if you're motivated. those who juice, generally speaking have the motivation. a father seeking revenge for his children who were killed by bandits. a soldier who pledges to give his life to protect his nation. a thrill-seeker who's greatest fear is to spend years in a wheelchair or worse, a sick-bed, withering away. the desperate man who will give up a lifetime of misery and poverty for a few years of excitement, wealth, and adventure. these are your archetypical juicers when you've got only a few years to live.

in contrast, the archetypical juicer when you remove that drawback? the rich, spoiled brat who doesn't want to spend time exercising. the wealthy businessman who needs more hours in the day. the rogue scholar who needs to be ever watchful in case a coalition patrol comes calling. the powerful magician who has little time to study combat. anyone who can afford it, really. it goes from being an adventurer and warrior with a mission and a limited time to get it done, to being the new sea inquisitor: tack it on to every character, because why not? there's no drawbacks.

You left off the slave Juicers forcibly converted and who never wanted to be Juicers in the first place. Who end up not having the option of de-toxing because they can't afford it and never see it as anything but a death sentence imposed on them by someone else.

This is just going to be an area we'll fundamentally disagree on. I don't see penalties and flaws as requirements for things or define things by their downsides and think that removing them somehow 'ruins' something. I'm just not going to see flaws as essential to a concept, and while I'm clearly in the minority as so many others seem to think the only essential thing is the flaws and the actual benefits mean nothing I'm not going to be changing that. They just aren't my idea of fun, especially extreme flaws like the Juicer Death Penalty.

[Shark_Force]

You left off the slave Juicers forcibly converted and who never wanted to be Juicers in the first place. Who end up not having the option of de-toxing because they can't afford it and never see it as anything but a death sentence imposed on them by someone else.

This is just going to be an area we'll fundamentally disagree on. I don't see penalties and flaws as requirements for things or define things by their downsides and think that removing them somehow 'ruins' something. I'm just not going to see flaws as essential to a concept, and while I'm clearly in the minority as so many others seem to think the only essential thing is the flaws and the actual benefits mean nothing I'm not going to be changing that. They just aren't my idea of fun, especially extreme flaws like the Juicer Death Penalty.

you're not making any sense. you're complaining over and over again that the drawback has no effect whatsoever on the class, then you turn around and complain that you don't like the effect of the drawback on the class. this is fundamentally flawed reasoning.

you want to change a class's character entirely, and then claim you have changed nothing. that is nonsense. it's like claiming that the coalition would be exactly the same if they suddenly started welcoming d-bees and grant them automatic citizenship and stopped hating magic in every form. your arguments are clearly flawed, and have no logic in them whatsoever.

you want the entire basis of the class to change. the numbers are just there to provide mechanical support for the story. the problem is that you are claiming that the story is not in any way an important part of the class, only the numbers. this is a completely absurd line of reasoning. kevin siembieda didn't write down a bunch of numbers, look at it, and say "hey, this would make a great class called the juicer". he came up with an idea, a concept, a story, and then he wrote down numbers to help tell that story.

you cannot take away the story behind the juicer, and then claim you've still got a juicer. you don't. you have something else. is it mechanically unbalanced? probably not. after all, it's not like there's a disclaimer in the juicer class that says you can't play it unless you guarantee the campaign will last several in-game years. but it sure as hell isn't a juicer, and i can't for the life of me imagine why you would think it's the same thing at all.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Meh. Don't know if anyone's posted this yet, but if somone wanted to play a Juicer with a "normal" lifespan, just have them build a True Atlantean Juicer.
That's the most likely explanation as to why Julian the First is still alive despite the fact that even he admits he should've died years ago. Maybe his parents (or at least one of them) was a True Atlantean, perhaps with amnesia.

I mean, weirder things have happened, it's Rifts Earth for cripe's sake! We have the Sundance Kid and Victor Lazlo running around, and lots of other highly recognizable (but not named) characters have appeared in the artwork. Wolverine, Doc Savage, even Cable, have all cameoed in artwork in various books.

i would they have an uncanny appearance to said characters but that's not them

[Nether]

You left off the slave Juicers forcibly converted and who never wanted to be Juicers in the first place. Who end up not having the option of de-toxing because they can't afford it and never see it as anything but a death sentence imposed on them by someone else.

This is just going to be an area we'll fundamentally disagree on. I don't see penalties and flaws as requirements for things or define things by their downsides and think that removing them somehow 'ruins' something. I'm just not going to see flaws as essential to a concept, and while I'm clearly in the minority as so many others seem to think the only essential thing is the flaws and the actual benefits mean nothing I'm not going to be changing that. They just aren't my idea of fun, especially extreme flaws like the Juicer Death Penalty.

you're not making any sense. you're complaining over and over again that the drawback has no effect whatsoever on the class, then you turn around and complain that you don't like the effect of the drawback on the class. this is fundamentally flawed reasoning.

you want to change a class's character entirely, and then claim you have changed nothing. that is nonsense. it's like claiming that the coalition would be exactly the same if they suddenly started welcoming d-bees and grant them automatic citizenship and stopped hating magic in every form. your arguments are clearly flawed, and have no logic in them whatsoever.

you want the entire basis of the class to change. the numbers are just there to provide mechanical support for the story. the problem is that you are claiming that the story is not in any way an important part of the class, only the numbers. this is a completely absurd line of reasoning. kevin siembieda didn't write down a bunch of numbers, look at it, and say "hey, this would make a great class called the juicer". he came up with an idea, a concept, a story, and then he wrote down numbers to help tell that story.

you cannot take away the story behind the juicer, and then claim you've still got a juicer. you don't. you have something else. is it mechanically unbalanced? probably not. after all, it's not like there's a disclaimer in the juicer class that says you can't play it unless you guarantee the campaign will last several in-game years. but it sure as hell isn't a juicer, and i can't for the life of me imagine why you would think it's the same thing at all.

Completely agree with everything you said about the Juicer debate!

@Nightmask, it's just hard to see your points to how the penalities don't make a big part of the class. Read the JU and you will see that it is inherently part of every juicer's mentality. It sounds like you want a super soldier type program vs what the juicer concept is. His bonuses don't really matter. Also why are you so intent on changing the juicer (destroying the concept) when there is so many other options out there that are simular in power without the drawbacks that you can just choose?

[Nightmask]

@Nightmask, it's just hard to see your points to how the penalities don't make a big part of the class. Read the JU and you will see that it is inherently part of every juicer's mentality. It sounds like you want a super soldier type program vs what the juicer concept is. His bonuses don't really matter. Also why are you so intent on changing the juicer (destroying the concept) when there is so many other options out there that are simular in power without the drawbacks that you can just choose?

I've already said my piece. I disagree with the death sentence being an integral part of the juicer concept or that removing it would destroy the juicer concept. Telling me how I have to accept it as integral isn't going to change my mind, I disagree. I've laid out my reasons why multiple times to have them dismissed 'because that's not a juicer' and see no reason to waste time more with this topic when the only response is 'that's not a juicer'.

[Damian Magecraft]

A juicer is loaded up 24/7 on every conceivable chemical substance (and un-conceived ones as well) at levels that provide super-human abilities... and you still maintain that the physical burnout is...
1: Unrealistic (even though the effects of prolonged drug abuse is well documented)
2: Unfair (but the progressive mental decay of the crazy and the progressive dehumanization of the Borg is somehow fair)

It's also future tech with access to technology advanced enough to have nanobot repair systems for people, so safe augmentation isn't inherently impossible.

Which is why they do not die the instant the bio-comp floods their system with the lethal cocktail of drugs (or do you think that a drug that provides super human ability has no degrading effects on the human system?) It is also why they get up to 10 years of "extreme" life.

These are the arguments of someone who wants something for nothing.
you want a juicer without the side effects?
Make a D-Bee race That gets those benefits...
Oh but wait...
Then it would not be a juicer and that is not the point is it?

I really need to repeat how I hate that phrase of 'something for nothing', it's really insulting and meant to be derogatory and dismiss out of hand someone for having a different viewpoint than yourself. But as I've already pointed out plenty of times what makes the juicer isn't the penalties, and it seems the only reason everyone else clings to them is because they're there and take any suggestions to the fact that it's the powers not the penalties that define the OCC as if it were a heresy to suggest someone might want the power when they're supposed to want the penalties. Talk about being confused about what is and isn't essential to the class, as it's the powers that make the juicer not the penalties.

you are right in one respect the juicer is about the power...
It is also about the price.

Yes there are other beings out there that are "better" than the Juicer but they are not really humans are they?
The premise of the augmented human is in exchange for the power they pay a price.
It just happens to be a short lifespan in the case of the juicer.

I would believe your stance more readily if you offered up a different price...
But you dismissed that idea already.
so no you are not arguing for no "death penalty"
you are arguing for power with out any cost; which fundamentally breaks the conceit of the augmented human.

[Shark_Force]

@Nightmask, it's just hard to see your points to how the penalities don't make a big part of the class. Read the JU and you will see that it is inherently part of every juicer's mentality. It sounds like you want a super soldier type program vs what the juicer concept is. His bonuses don't really matter. Also why are you so intent on changing the juicer (destroying the concept) when there is so many other options out there that are simular in power without the drawbacks that you can just choose?

I've already said my piece. I disagree with the death sentence being an integral part of the juicer concept or that removing it would destroy the juicer concept. Telling me how I have to accept it as integral isn't going to change my mind, I disagree. I've laid out my reasons why multiple times to have them dismissed 'because that's not a juicer' and see no reason to waste time more with this topic when the only response is 'that's not a juicer'.

and yet pretty much all the flavor text we have on juicers emphasises that drawback as being a major part of why they are the way they are.

as i said, if you take the CS, remove their hatred of non-humans and magic, but keep all the same soldiers, weapons, armor, vehicles, etc... would you claim that the CS was not in any way changed? mechanically, nothing is different. the rules are the same. they're using the same weapons and armor. and yet, they are so obviously *not* the same that it should be immediately obvious to anyone that it's a major change.

same thing with juicers. it's not unbalanced. it's not overpowered. but if you take out the core defining element of all the flavor text we have on juicers, you have completely changed the class.

[Nether]

Wasn't an entire plot for this done in Juicer Uprising? With the Prometheus Treatment?

Lolz, yes it was, but it really had nothing to do with "curing" the juicers, it was all about tricking them into becoming undead juicers.

Details, who needs em...

[Nether]

Wasn't an entire plot for this done in Juicer Uprising? With the Prometheus Treatment?

Lolz, yes it was, but it really had nothing to do with "curing" the juicers, it was all about tricking them into becoming undead juicers.

Details, who needs em...

So, it just seems to me, you're destorying one of the reasons, rp aspects of Juicers and there's a whole plot dealing with promising Juicers immortality, all the benefits, but none of the draw-backs. I'd keep the draw-backs as that's one of the things that keeps the role-play... not the roll-play in Rifts.

Just to make sure i am reading your point right,

You are saying i am destroying the juicer concept because i want them to have the short life span?

or

you are more agreeing with me that if the drawback is important to roleplaying?

[Ziggurat the Eternal]

IMO the only people who could care less about or think the removal of the life-span of juicers is a good thing are "optimizers" (God i hate that phrase call a spade a spade - a number cruncher.)

You'll need to explain then what numbers that they're crunching to 'optimize', since lifespan doesn't affect any other numbers outside of lifespan.

Answer this...
You are told the campaign will span the course of 20 years (jump cutting down time where little to no exp would be accumulated) would you purposely choose to run a RAW juicer? even if the GM guaranteed you would survive detox regardless of how long you stayed as a juicer?
NCs would not because the ROLE-play aspect of the downsides does not appeal to them only the Bonuses do.
They would even ignore the class after the GM Fiat of survival of detox because the downsides of detox are too debilitating to their character. (all they care about is "beating the game" with the most mechanically perfect character possible).

We call those munchkins. not optimizers. Munchkin has a negative connotation attached to it to desrcibe how often they ruin the game for everyone else.

unless everyone is going munchkin. in which case its the most awesome fun thing that ever happened.

[Damian Magecraft]

IMO the only people who could care less about or think the removal of the life-span of juicers is a good thing are "optimizers" (God i hate that phrase call a spade a spade - a number cruncher.)

You'll need to explain then what numbers that they're crunching to 'optimize', since lifespan doesn't affect any other numbers outside of lifespan.

Answer this...
You are told the campaign will span the course of 20 years (jump cutting down time where little to no exp would be accumulated) would you purposely choose to run a RAW juicer? even if the GM guaranteed you would survive detox regardless of how long you stayed as a juicer?
NCs would not because the ROLE-play aspect of the downsides does not appeal to them only the Bonuses do.
They would even ignore the class after the GM Fiat of survival of detox because the downsides of detox are too debilitating to their character. (all they care about is "beating the game" with the most mechanically perfect character possible).

We call those munchkins. not optimizers. Munchkin has a negative connotation attached to it to desrcibe how often they ruin the game for everyone else.

unless everyone is going munchkin. in which case its the most awesome fun thing that ever happened.

no a munchkin and an optimizer are not the same thing...
A munchkin could not give a good ***-**** about the rules as long as his character is the most uber-AI-killing-universe-shattering-mary-sue-PC in the game.
An optimizer only cares that his character is the most mechanically efficient possible. Sometimes an optimizer can/will slip into munchkinism but they are generally two separate entities.

[Shark_Force]

there's also the fact that an optimiser will not necessarily optimise for the "best" thing.

that is, an optimiser *could* make a combat character optimised for killing things quickly and efficiently. but they might also optimise for stealth, information gathering, and computer skills. they might optimise for melee combat, even though it's generally speaking not as good as ranged. they might even try to optimise things that are a challenge, such as making a good combat character out of a vagabond.

[Balabanto]

My point is that if some guy wants to play a juicer, and you run the game FAIRLY, he's going to be running around doing something every day while other people take downtime. When I used to do this, Juicers wanted every day roleplayed out and everyone else was like "Could we skip three weeks, please?" Juicer: But, but, but...

And so on. While life isn't fair, the GM does have to be fair to his players, and the eight year burnout effect lends itself perfectly to certain types of gaming styles. However, the problem with this is:

It doesn't matter WHO in the group plays the juicer. This is INEVITABLY what happens. The most important thing in roleplaying games is still having fun, and this drawback makes it fairly hard for groups who don't enjoy day by day roleplaying to have fun. At one point in my Rifts game, the game got so bolluxed up by this that it took SIX MONTHS to roleplay THREE DAYS! That's crazy. I had plots I wanted to run. Some characters couldn't do ANYTHING because they were spending entire sessions doing their exercises, etc, while the Juicers ran around and did stuff. And in those three game days, about 4 PC's died from doing those things. This was highly un-fun.