Duel weapons,,2 shields!?

[t0m]

i agree with Rhomphaia for the most part regarding actually hitting you. i have one correction though (possibly). im not sure if this is a house rule of mine (so someone correct me), but to use paired weapons you have to specify which pair you want when you take wp: paired. as in, paired swords, or sword/axe, or shield/mace, etc. i wouldnt let you dual wield two shields unless you were trained to do that by taking an additional wp:paired shields. i would, however, let you rush the room with two shields, and use the above rule by Rhomphaia requiring a called shot to hit you. you just wouldnt be able to simultaneously parry two blows like you would if you officially took wp:paired shields...but you wouldnt really need to because they require a called shot to hit...

[Nightmask]

i agree with Rhomphaia for the most part regarding actually hitting you. i have one correction though (possibly). im not sure if this is a house rule of mine (so someone correct me), but to use paired weapons you have to specify which pair you want when you take wp: paired. as in, paired swords, or sword/axe, or shield/mace, etc. i wouldnt let you dual wield two shields unless you were trained to do that by taking an additional wp:paired shields. i would, however, let you rush the room with two shields, and use the above rule by Rhomphaia requiring a called shot to hit you. you just wouldnt be able to simultaneously parry two blows like you would if you officially took wp:paired shields...but you wouldnt really need to because they require a called shot to hit...

It depends, some versions of the HtH skill give you all combinations of paired weapons (because you're just that GOOD!). Plus running around with a pair of shields might not rise to the level of paired weapons use even using two shields, that and you can likely use any pairing you want but without training at it you just have some unfriendly penalties to deal with because you're clumsy at maneuvering two shields at once unlike an expert.

[JuliusCreed]

This reminds me of a time when I was running around with the SCA and heard of a warrior by the name of Ursa Bambino. His preferred method of attack in large scale battles was to have a Roman tower shield on each arm and, holding them before him, charge headlong into enemy lines, smashing his way through with the shields like a battering ram and trampling his foes underfoot. While I never personally witnessed this act and have reasons to doubt the veracity of the story, it actually sounds plausible. You put a big enough guy behind a wall that he can carry with him and you've got a frightening opponent. Want to make it worse... put spikes on the shield faces and scream "Charge!". Make sure your character has the Running skill for maximum speed and effect.

As for the specifics of the paired weapons skill, by canon there is nothing stating a seperate Paired WP must be taken for each paired weapon combination you want to be proficient with. At least not anywhere I can find in the PFRPG. If there's anything anywhere else... *shrug*

In the end... I'd say go for it! Strap on your shields, charge in there and bash their brains in!

[Soldier of Od]

i agree with Rhomphaia for the most part regarding actually hitting you. i have one correction though (possibly). im not sure if this is a house rule of mine (so someone correct me), but to use paired weapons you have to specify which pair you want when you take wp: paired. as in, paired swords, or sword/axe, or shield/mace, etc. i wouldnt let you dual wield two shields unless you were trained to do that by taking an additional wp:paired shields. i would, however, let you rush the room with two shields, and use the above rule by Rhomphaia requiring a called shot to hit you. you just wouldnt be able to simultaneously parry two blows like you would if you officially took wp:paired shields...but you wouldnt really need to because they require a called shot to hit...

I'm pretty sure that this rule is from Ninjas & Superspies. I just looked over the Palladium Fantasy paired weapons description and it seems to say that you can use any one-handed weapons as paired.

[Hendrik]

This reminds me of a time when I was running around with the SCA and heard of a warrior by the name of Ursa Bambino. His preferred method of attack in large scale battles was to have a Roman tower shield on each arm and, holding them before him, charge headlong into enemy lines, smashing his way through with the shields like a battering ram and trampling his foes underfoot. While I never personally witnessed this act and have reasons to doubt the veracity of the story, it actually sounds plausible. You put a big enough guy behind a wall that he can carry with him and you've got a frightening opponent. Want to make it worse... put spikes on the shield faces and scream "Charge!". Make sure your character has the Running skill for maximum speed and effect.

Cool tale!

As for the specifics of the paired weapons skill, by canon there is nothing stating a seperate Paired WP must be taken for each paired weapon combination you want to be proficient with. At least not anywhere I can find in the PFRPG. If there's anything anywhere else... *shrug*

Funny, we have been playing the "1 Weapon Combo = 1 W.P. Paired Weapons" for so long that I actually thought it was canon, but - Hendrik completely flabberghasted - you seem to be absolutely right, Julius, I searched but could also not find that in canon... thanks.

In the end... I'd say go for it! Strap on your shields, charge in there and bash their brains in!

Yup!

Ask your DM... If your DM feels like it and wants to allow it to be potentially repeated, why not.

Just two things for your consideration, Jupios:

1.
Shields are predominantely defense tools, naturally. You might break a jaw with them or, a more primary use, push somebody aside, but they are quite unwieldy as weapons, methinks.

My instinct would be to give a strike malus, (-2) or so depending on the size of the shield (considering shield size, bearer size ratio). I have not checked up on rules on this, so this is just my thoughts. While a normal human using two bucklers to bash people - which would oddly look much as an OCC Cook W.P. Frying Pan W.P. Paired attack - is easily conceivable, I have a much more hard time imaging two tower shields used - despite Julius experience and, at least, not without a considerable malus on strike - for a Paired attack. I mean would that not look like one of those guys trying to emulate the birds in the early days of flight

2.
It also occurs to me: why the heck do you want to use two shields if almost any other "real" weapon would be so much more effective (damage potential, design) or do you want to push somebody off a ledge???

Cheers
Hendrik

[Severus Snape]

I like that you guys are discussing this tactic. I actually like and approve of the tactic myself.

As the GM in this particular game, here's the ruling I'm going to make on WP Paired Weapons and Jupios'/Palladonis' use of dual shields:

1. I'll allow the tactic to use to shields as you rush headlong into the room.
2. It will take a called shot, with the applicable penalties for being provided with ~50% body cover, to hit you.
3. You can rush them and attempt to knock them over, but you'll have to do so with no bonuses to strike. There are multiple reasons for this, with the 2 most important being that:

• You are going to be closing your eyes as Shawte casts the light spell so as not to be blinded yourself; and
• You are not proficient with the use of a shield as a battering ram

I'm not sure what the damage on the shield bash would be, but I'm gonna say that unless the books give an exact number somewhere that it's 1d6 plus PS bonus.

The other interesting thing in this topic is the whole WP Paired thing. How I see this WP is that without it, anybody can pick up 2 weapons - you're just not able to use both of them effectively enough to get the second attack or any of the bonuses for having 2 weapons. If you take WP Paired weapons, you must indicate what weapons you are taking as the paired weapons, as you would have been trained at some point in the use of those weapons in that particular style. Not to mention that it also prevents someone from using, say, a pair of long swords, but then if they get a magical axe they would immediately switch to that as one of their weapons. Sorry, but if you didn't declare the axe at first, then you don't get it.

As far as the shields go, it's the same thing. Anybody can pick up 2 shields and use them for cover. You just won't get the bonus to parry with the second shield as you aren't used to dual-wielding shields. However, if someone were to take (for some odd reason) WP Paired and indicate 2 shields, I would not only allow the bonus to parry with the second shield, but I'd give bonuses to strike with a shield and/or use a shield bash as a type of blunt attack.

This all make sense? Yes? Well, then, as soon as one of you guys indicates that you're opening the door we can continue.

[Hendrik]

Well Hendrik, the situation is that theres an unknown number of baddies on the other side of a door. We know they are there ( if not how many) and they know we're there. The mage in the group has suggested sending me in first (since I'm the only armored party member) with some sort of a distraction spell being cast as I enter. My thinking was to slam into the stunned enemies with my two medium sized shields equipped, gaining increased defense. I'm not necessarily looking to inflict big damage, but to further stun and knock over the opposing force, perhaps gaining initiative bonus for the group. Shield slams do only 1d6 or so (off the top of my head), but I would gain bonuses to parry from the WP shield skill. I figured a couple slams after the initial impact then discard one of the shields and draw a sword to finish the fight out. All this goes out the window if the GM has a carpet of adhesion spell or something to that effect on the other side of the door...

Hmmm, I do not know what your magic and mundane options (abilities etc.) are,but what about luring them out to fight in a better position? Explosives? Darkness instead of light? That said, slamming sounds cool, but I think you could do the same with one shield and 1 "real" weapon.

Cheers
Hendrik

[azazel1024]

Sure you could do it, but you'd be pretty limited. You could use a couple of small lantern shields or maybe something the size of a buckler, one in each hand. However, something like tower or kite shields is going to be difficult. In a lot of ways those would act more as cover and it would actually make it pretty difficult to parry anything effectively. Its going to cover a lot of you, but you are going to have a hard time moving to interpose the shields effectively against a blow. Its also going to serve to block your vision a lot more, so it is harder to see what exactly is happening.

You are also going to have very limited offensive capabilities. Pretty much just trying to push people back. Larger shields aren't very good offensive weapons. A medium or small shield however is pretty good at that. Also trying to bash someone with a large shield is either going to be extremely akward holding two, or else you are going to leave yourself wide open. With a sword and shield (or other hand weapon and shield) it is much easier to bash with the shield and use the hand weapon in an enguard position to parry another attack or a protect against a reposte or reprise.

A shield is much slower and ackward than most swords or other hand weapons, so against an opponent who is quick or against multiple opponents it is going to leave you extrodinarily vulnerable. Now against ranged attacks, like arrows and sling bullets a couple of shields is going to provide you much better cover. However, against someone with a sword and shield or a couple of hand weapons say, you'd be much more vulnerable.

Not trying to drill in how bad an idea it is...but I am

[zyanitevp]

Not trying to drill in how bad an idea it is...but I am

Sir I am shocked,,,shocked that anyone could perceive turning ones character into a human battering ram truth and justice as a bad idea!

Agreed... There is a group of knights, off the top of my head I think Eastern Territory, that specialize in shield combat....

[Hendrik]

Not trying to drill in how bad an idea it is...but I am

Sir I am shocked,,,shocked that anyone could perceive turning ones character into a human battering ram truth and justice as a bad idea!

Agreed... There is a group of knights, off the top of my head I think Eastern Territory, that specialize in shield combat....

Yet, good Sir, 'twould scarcely beseem a valiant knight to make use of 2 shields on a horse. Forsooth, his blazon would be doubly seen. Yet, such splendid sight would bring not tears of joy and manly cries of "bravo, Sir!" but of unashamed frolic when the thus twice protected knight is unhorsed by an errant breeze taking yon metal bird under its wings ere the first lance touches him.


Hendrik

[novatomato]

Hendrik, you good sir, are a hoot.

[JuliusCreed]

Just looked it up for those interested...

"Hitting or butting sonebody with a large of small shield does 2d4 damage" (PFRPG pg 60 WP Shield)

As for the logistics of using a larger shield, such as the previously mentioned tower shields, 1> You'd have to be a pretty big guy from the start (I'd see Ogre's and Trolls loving this tactic) and 2> The only really effective application would really be just a headlong charge into a group of opponents. It's really best for a shock and awe factor more than anything else. Using smaller shields makes for a slightly better bashing style tactic, allowing a bit more swinging room. I was thinking the use of a pair of lantern shields would be good for this style more than the headlong rush because the sword blades sticking out from the side don't really allow for effectively bringing them around to the front for a ramming attack.

[t0m]

thanks Nightmask, Rhomphaia and Soldier of Od.

[Veknironth]

Well, I am going to be the party pooper on this one. From a pure rules stand point, I don't see anything that precludes this tactic from working as desired. You have a character who has the ability to utilize both of his hands simultaneously in combat and can do so in combat. There wouldn't be a bonus to parrying an individual attack, however, as you are essentially just using one shield at a time to parry each attack. A double parry is only for parrying 2 simultaneous attacks (i.e. a double attack from another paired weapons trained assailant). It is not using both weapons to parry an incoming attack and gaining a bonus to parry that attack. To my knowledge there is no rule that exists to cover such an action. With just the rules perspective, you'd be better off just using one shield as a character with a hand to hand skill has an automatic parry and you can parry basically any attack you see coming. So it would make no difference from a rules perspective how many shields you have.

Of course, the character is not trying to merely parry attacks. What he is trying to do is a sort of group shield bash. Per the rules, this can't be done. The shield bash is a single target attack so the character would have to target the first person he approaches and ram into him. Then you'd follow the rules of a shield bash or charge attack to see what happened to the defender.

Now, if you look at it from a less rules point of view and a more "how might this work in reality" view I really am against this. While you could create a larger shield wall in front of you and angle it to afford you some flank protection this will limit your ability to advance into the room through the enemy. To deliver a smashing blow you would want to direct as much of your mass and momentum towards the target as possible, and to make a smaller point if impact so it will have greater effect. If you disperse this by having 2 shields up you will essentially soften the blow by dispersing the force over a greater area. It also means that when the shields hit the target, you will be relying on the strength of only your arms and shoulders to protect against the equal and opposite reaction of your force ramming into the opponent. This would likely result in the shields being brushed aside if you hit more than one person at a time as they force would be too much for the person holding them. This is assuming the attacker and defenders are of a relatively same size. IF an ogre does this against gnomes, the results would be much different.

What you could do with 2 shields is use it like a wedge, to split the attackers into 2 groups but that wouldn't stun them much. They'd be more surprised by the sudden appearance of someone running into their midst than being bowled over by the force of the attack. Depending on what the people in the room are doing, they might be able to just side-step the charge, and then stab your back, or attack your unprotected legs. Tripping would be a huge hazard as you might be tripped intentionally by a bad guy, you might knock someone over and trip over him or her, or you just might expect an impact and have your weight thrown forward only to meet no resistance. This doesn't even take into account what the layout of the room is. It could be the door opens into a corridor and you just run across it into the opposite wall. Or, there could be furniture in the way. He could charge into a table, chair, sofa, etc.

If you want to utilize the element of surprise with rushing into the room (assuming it is laid out as you expect) I'd just have people enter the room like a SWAT team, stacked and ready to engage targets as they are identified. You have to expect that even if the guy charges into the room, not EVERYONE is going to look at him only. Someone will look past him to the other characters through the door. Also, you're going to have this guy die early then have to fight the group anyway, with 1 less character. If there's going to be a spell distraction start with that. Why bother sending the guy in first if you're going to hit them with Blinding Flash or something?

-Vek
"If you read this far, here's the answer - Cloud of Slumber on the other side of the door BEFORE opening it."

[Prysus]

Just looked it up for those interested...

"Hitting or butting somebody with a small or large shield does 2d4 damage" (PFRPG pg 60 WP Shield)

Greetings and Salutations. That's a truly fascinating quote. See, here I had been looking on the same page (PF2 main book, page 60), same section (WP Shield), but found a different quote.

"+1 to strike with a shield (1D4 damage) at levels 4, 8, and 12."

This is the last line of the first paragraph, and yours is the last line of the second paragraph. We have two different damages listed, go figure. Anyways, just wanted to point out the second quote. Though I think I like the 2D4 better truth be told. Anyways, that's all for now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.



P.S. I fixed a couple of mistakes in your quote JuliusCreed. Nothing personal, I swear.

[Severus Snape]

Overkill, that makes total sense. And as I'm the type of GM who likes to learn and adapt and get input from his players, I'd allow that line of thought.

[The Dark Elf]

I would allow two shields as they are one handed "weapons".

I wouldnt give any different bonuses other to the WP bonuses (if you have the WP).

I do treat WP paired as applying to whatever is in hand (be it bottle and chairleg if needs be). The damage and bonuses have already been differentiated.

my opinions there....

Btw, does the Gigante with the two bladed shields give any "new" rules/info?

[Specter]

I had a similar idea for a scrapper character for a heroes unlimited game. He had two shields like captain america's original shield and the points were sharp and held so the points pointed out instead of down from the forearm

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/images/users/uploads/8558/capclashld.JPG

[azazel1024]

Frankly I'd use 1d4 damage as a shield bash and 2d4 damage as a shield strike. This are two different things. A bash is with the face of the shield and is generally a "pushing" attack to force someone back, knock them over, or possibly hurt them. You can do it like a line backer with your shoulder and weight behind it, this would be great for shoving someone. However, an attack like this, unless you hit them in the face, isn't really going to hurt someone very much. Maybe knock them back a bit, spoil their cover by hitting their shield out of the way, knock a weapon lose, maybe knock them down.

A shield strike is using the edge of the shield to hit someone. This can do a lot of damage. You are using the edge as a blunt weapon by swinging the shield edge on at the person, slamming it down on the top of their foot, clubbing it ciruclarly around yourself and in to your opponent, etc. The edge of a shield striking can fairly easily break bones and cause a large amount of trauma with an unprotected hit. This isn't going to really push someone, but if you hit unprotected it is going to hurt, badly.

This would be nearly impossible with two shields, unless they were relatively small.

[Severus Snape]

Well, I took care of the shields issue. All I can say is that they are too heavy now.

If you want to read the whole thing, go to the Storm Watch.

[Hendrik]

Well, I took care of the shields issue. All I can say is that they are too heavy now.

If you want to read the whole thing, go to the Storm Watch.

Hi there, Severus,

I still have to look at the Storm Watch forum, but for now:

I have not got my history books at hand now, but I would think that a tower shield (scutum), which is what was talked about, right?, would weigh about max. 5-12 KG depending on material used but being made usually of wood, hide/leather, metal boss, and such. That would admittedly outweigh a normal weapon considerably, which rarely are above 2 KG, but a strong guy for only a short combat should be able to use a heavier thing just fine. The issue I think is more the size and bulkiness of the larger shields, even your average "Viking" round shield would when you have two of them obstruct your sight pretty much, which cannot be so good when fighting, but which would influence strike.

Cheers
Hendrik

[Prysus]

I do think the notion has possibilities as a specialized combat OCC. A character that would use momentum and strength to employ a specialized form of combat where he/she whirls his shields in a dance of brutal smashing and bashing attacks. The edge of the shields could even be customized with sharp edges or spikes. This special form of combat would be a WP skill or hand to hand style available only to this OCC.

Greetings and Salutations. Funny, because I've been thinking the same thing since I've started to read this post. I've been toying with writing up such an O.C.C., but haven't gotten around to it yet (been busy). If I do, I'm likely to post it up here on these boards (haven't come up with a good name for it yet). Well, not the exact same as your thoughts, but similar.

Somewhere I read ( and I forget where) about characters that employ over sized weapons in combat. Suffering a penalty in the first melee action, but with momentum built up after the first swing they would use that momentum and their strength to execute multiple attacks per melee round.

*Raises eyebrow.* That sounds strikingly similar to something I did, but I can't remember posting it. Wait ... *thinks about it more* ... by any chance did you read Rifter 52? I'm thinking of From Ruins to Runes (Living Rune Weapon article), the NPC Seraphend used that Hand to Hand (unless someone else made similar rules/style). If that is what you're thinking of, then you'll also be able to see the hand to hand style (and more rules on oversized weapons) in Rifter 0.1 (coming soon).

Anyways, that's all for now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Hendrik]

I do think the notion has possibilities as a specialized combat OCC. A character that would use momentum and strength to employ a specialized form of combat where he/she whirls his shields in a dance of brutal smashing and bashing attacks. The edge of the shields could even be customized with sharp edges or spikes. This special form of combat would be a WP skill or hand to hand style available only to this OCC.

Greetings and Salutations. Funny, because I've been thinking the same thing since I've started to read this post. I've been toying with writing up such an O.C.C., but haven't gotten around to it yet (been busy). If I do, I'm likely to post it up here on these boards (haven't come up with a good name for it yet). Well, not the exact same as your thoughts, but similar.

Pan-Handler O.C.C.?

Lambaster O.C.C.?

Kindest regards,
Hendrik

PS: Sorry, could not resist ... ... although Lambaster has a certain RING to it.

[Severus Snape]

Well, I took care of the shields issue. All I can say is that they are too heavy now.

If you want to read the whole thing, go to the Storm Watch.

Hi there, Severus,

I still have to look at the Storm Watch forum, but for now:

I have not got my history books at hand now, but I would think that a tower shield (scutum), which is what was talked about, right?, would weigh about max. 5-12 KG depending on material used but being made usually of wood, hide/leather, metal boss, and such. That would admittedly outweigh a normal weapon considerably, which rarely are above 2 KG, but a strong guy for only a short combat should be able to use a heavier thing just fine. The issue I think is more the size and bulkiness of the larger shields, even your average "Viking" round shield would when you have two of them obstruct your sight pretty much, which cannot be so good when fighting, but which would influence strike.

Cheers
Hendrik

I appreciate the input. And I was allowing him to dual-wield the shields. Until the Lizard Mage cast Increase Weight on them. +100 pounds to each shield (yes, it was cast twice - once on each shield).

[Hendrik]

I appreciate the input. And I was allowing him to dual-wield the shields. Until the Lizard Mage cast Increase Weight on them. +100 pounds to each shield (yes, it was cast twice - once on each shield).

*roaring laughter*

Severus,

you are a fine, fine ... and devious DM! Simple, yet effective, i.e. elegant. ... Hmmm, 50 KG per shield is still possible to hurl/bash with (at least once) and the added weight, while eating up speed, should give such attack devastating momentum.

Jupios,

did you succeed to bash in some heads? Especially that of the offensive Lizard?

Kind regards
Hendrik

[Hendrik]

Heh, ya, Snape got me good on that one. I got one ineffectual bash in ( bad roll) before my second shield was taken away from me. My goal at this point is just to try and keep the lizard mage (Snape) from doing the same thing to my suit of armor, or worse

Hiya, Jupios,

I assume the Lizard mage is not within reach. I further assume that you are, err, occupied by other opponents. I hope you have another weapon in reach and I understand you to still have one of the shields available. At that weight it should be not much use in parrying either, but ...

I think you can throw it. If you hit the mage with 50 KGs of razor blades (weren't those attached?) and the weight alone, that should distract if not on a lucky roll at least smash in the lizard man, I would venture.

... Severus, should you have anything against such brainstorming, please say. I do not want to be impolite about this, sancticity of the table, virtual or not, and all that.

Cheers
Hendrik

[Severus Snape]

Hendrik
I have nothing against this type of brainstorming at all. Even if you aren't in the campaign, it's still good to hear what is going on in the minds of other gamers, and how others would react to the same situation. It's all in good fun, as long as out-of-game information doesn't make its way into the game. So please, keep providing input!

Additionally, I figured that the added 100 lbs. to each shield would be too much for someone to actually carry with one hand while charging into combat, which is why he dropped each shield as the increase weight spells were cast. Think about it - you're carrying something that weighs about 10 pounds or so, and you have one of each of these in your arms. You rush headlong at full speed into combat, when all of a sudden one of them immediately - not gradually or casually, but immediately - weighs 110 pounds. You're gonna drop it. Which is what I figured would happen. If that's not right, let me know and I can adjust for future encounters.

Jupios
You better hope that Globe of Daylight works. Or you're really not going to be happy with what happens.

[Severus Snape]

Spells and crossbow bolts are one thing,,but if he gives me fleas its on.

As your GM...

You are immediately feeling itchy from having a few hundred of the small critters find their way inside your armor. You are now infested with fleas, each one carrying a small sign that says "We came from Takara!".

Fight away!

[t0m]

add me to your cult as well...but i liked it before it was cool

[Specter]

Don't know what you are talking about Bandit. Almost all of my friends loved Samurai Jack, and myself included.

[Prysus]

I do think the notion has possibilities as a specialized combat OCC. A character that would use momentum and strength to employ a specialized form of combat where he/she whirls his shields in a dance of brutal smashing and bashing attacks. The edge of the shields could even be customized with sharp edges or spikes. This special form of combat would be a WP skill or hand to hand style available only to this OCC.

Greetings and Salutations. Funny, because I've been thinking the same thing since I've started to read this post. I've been toying with writing up such an O.C.C., but haven't gotten around to it yet (been busy). If I do, I'm likely to post it up here on these boards (haven't come up with a good name for it yet). Well, not the exact same as your thoughts, but similar.

Greetings and Salutations. For those curious to see what I came up with, feel free to check out this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=123083

I had toyed around with making an entirely new Hand to Hand style just for this O.C.C., but the truth is that it would have taken more time and effort than I wanted to put into this project (which isn't to say I didn't aim for quality, but designed an all new HtH would have doubled the time it took me to do the rest of the O.C.C.). This idea was inspired by Jupios and this campaign, so I posted my work here for all to see freely (as I won't take claim for this as my idea, even if I did the work and followed with my take/vision on it). Hopefully you enjoy. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.