Thundercloud is HERE!!!!

[azazel1024]

I think maybe challenge accepted. I keep wanting to put stuff together for 3g, either in book form or rifter articles, but then I sadly lose motivation after I write maybe 20 odd pages. Usually I keep taking a crack at ship creation rules.

I think maybe, I hope, I'll actually get the motivation and put together some stuff for 3G.

One of the things I've been wanting to take a crack at along with animals, monsters and plants is a "modern" Alchemist for the UWW. Kind of part herbalist, part PFRPG alchemist and part TW.

Maybe an article with that new fangled Alchemist, a couple of plants and animals and some alchemy "goods" might just do the trick I am thinking.

[Carl Gleba]

20 pages is fine az. I think the minimum is 6?

[Vrykolas2k]

The book's alright.
I'd like to have seen a couple of the other Elders statted, but that's just me.

[Braden Campbell]

So how many agents does this leader who is lauded for their common sense send? This leader, who is responsible for a civilization that is found in three galaxies and is responsible for trillions of sentients? One. Just one. My brain choked on that one.

Well, of course they only sent one man... the absolute best-of-the-best they had. The Player Character-level, totally incorruptible hero. Who then apparently lost it.

The CCW, once the shining contrast to the TGE is now breaking it's own rules, oops, I mean reinterpreting them and basically becoming the bag guys while the TGE becomes the good guys.

I believe you may have missed a subtle but important thing here - the Thundercloud Development Company and the Thundercloud Task Force Admirals are the ones operating by a new interpretation of the Civilization Compact, not the CCW government as a whole. In fact, people in the Corkscrew have no idea what is going on, and that includes the Office of the Prime Minister. Hence, Viorr Jhawn's call for an investigation.

And the Kreeghor are still violent and self-serving. It's just that they're finally learning the art of spin-doctoring.

[Saitou Hajime]

So how many agents does this leader who is lauded for their common sense send? This leader, who is responsible for a civilization that is found in three galaxies and is responsible for trillions of sentients? One. Just one. My brain choked on that one.

Well, of course they only sent one man... the absolute best-of-the-best they had. The Player Character-level, totally incorruptible hero. Who then apparently lost it.

The CCW, once the shining contrast to the TGE is now breaking it's own rules, oops, I mean reinterpreting them and basically becoming the bag guys while the TGE becomes the good guys.

I believe you may have missed a subtle but important thing here - the Thundercloud Development Company and the Thundercloud Task Force Admirals are the ones operating by a new interpretation of the Civilization Compact, not the CCW government as a whole. In fact, people in the Corkscrew have no idea what is going on, and that includes the Office of the Prime Minister. Hence, Viorr Jhawn's call for an investigation.

And the Kreeghor are still violent and self-serving. It's just that they're finally learning the art of spin-doctoring.

Kreeghor have learned that it Location, Location, Location! there big benefit is that they are liberating slaves.

[Cybermancer]

So how many agents does this leader who is lauded for their common sense send? This leader, who is responsible for a civilization that is found in three galaxies and is responsible for trillions of sentients? One. Just one. My brain choked on that one.

Well, of course they only sent one man... the absolute best-of-the-best they had. The Player Character-level, totally incorruptible hero. Who then apparently lost it.

The CCW, once the shining contrast to the TGE is now breaking it's own rules, oops, I mean reinterpreting them and basically becoming the bag guys while the TGE becomes the good guys.

I believe you may have missed a subtle but important thing here - the Thundercloud Development Company and the Thundercloud Task Force Admirals are the ones operating by a new interpretation of the Civilization Compact, not the CCW government as a whole. In fact, people in the Corkscrew have no idea what is going on, and that includes the Office of the Prime Minister. Hence, Viorr Jhawn's call for an investigation.

And the Kreeghor are still violent and self-serving. It's just that they're finally learning the art of spin-doctoring.

Well for starters, I'm still not buying the idea of sending out just one inspector. Or even just hundreds. Even player characters would be part of a larger operation in a situation like this.

As for the rest, I didn't miss the 'subtle' points. They just don't mitigate the situation. It's pretty much criminal that the CCW has so little oversight over such an important operation that they're allowing the TDC and their admirals to warp their rules so outrageously. So that makes the CCW as an organization in the Thundercloud criminals and their leadership back home incompetent.

Sorry, I'm just not happy about how this book was handled. Like I said before, it's not that you're a bad writer but there are elements to this book I just can't swallow without a bad after taste.

[azazel1024]

What do you think happened to a large degree with the Imperial colonizations during the 18th and 19th centuries (and early 20th)? A lot of the abuses, mismanagement, aboriginal disinternment from their lands, etc was swept under the rug. Some of it was fairly common knowledge, but a lot wasn't. Keep in mind, Thundercloud isn't on the radio waves or internet. It is a good 2-3 month hard space journey for a fast courier from the Anvil or Corkscrew galaxies. A lot more information can be carried on a ship than an old age of sail ship, but you are still reliant on either magic word of mouth communications, or physically couriering information.

As for the investigation, I can see it being lead by a single sentient, maybe even one that wanted to be "on the spot" to investigate. However, I can't imagine they wouldn't have had dozens to hundreds of investigators working for them (in fact I believe the book mentions hundreds of investigators "disappearing" (bought, killed, accidented, gone in to hiding, etc). That doesn't mean that the information would necessarily "leap" back to the CCW gov't when the person in charge of the investigation just loses it. These investigators are physically weeks away from the closest Anvil or Corkscrew galaxy planets. Even if you "write the report" it doesn't mean that suddenly you've recalled all of the investigators, let alone are able to just throw together a new one even if you get all the guys back.

The point is, the inertia of the whole thing is making the CCW take a long time, both the public and the gov't, to not only learn of the abuses, but also really believe what is going on and then furthermore take action (Us, do something like that?!? Absolutely not! We have laws against that sort of thing! What do you mean our own officials could be skirting the laws?!? Unthinkable!). It took a lot of imperial gov'ts decades to reform "abuses" that were even relatively widely known and DECRIED by their own public (even if it was only a vocal minority against it), let alone stuff that is being actively hidden from the public and home government.

Who do you believe, a steady, but very small stream of "nay sayers" or "conspiracy theorists" or "alarmists" who are saying there is all this bad stuff going on, in contravention of centuries of law, tradition and convention? Or do you believe the large majority who (are paid to) say that everything is just hunky-doory, and well, maybe a few minor incidents have occured, but they are very isolated, not policy, and of course we are looking in to it!

[BookWyrm]

I so want this book now. But I'll have to wait until the next time I get a chance to hit The Compleat Strategist, maybe next month.

[Braden Campbell]

An additional note: people (and power blocs by extrapolation) are always quick to point out the wrongs committed by others first and foremost, even when they themselves are committing the same wrongs.

Therefore, the CCW attitude in the Thundercloud is one of, "the TGE are abusing the natives, but we're saving them. No need to examine our motives when those of our enemies are so blatantly wrong."

I'm sorry you didn't like the book's over-arching theme, Cybermancer, but as a writer I despise black or white, one power bloc squeeky clean while the other is quite obviously oppresive. The fact is everything has shades of grey - people suck and governments are duplicitous. In the Scramble for the Thundercloud, it's all just come to the surface.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I think Branden is trying for the Thundercloud Development groups operating on a basis rather like the Dutch and English East Indies corporations. Organizations with broad objectives, authorized to use military force with little to no oversight, presuing agendas that seem most advantagous to them at the time. They're not operating the way the CCW as a whole might like them to operate, but they are taking advantage of the huge communication time lags and sheer impossible volume of information an intergalatic political body has to keep track of to do it quietly.

Basically, they're doing things that the Prime Minister would never allow--if he actually had time to aquire and read accurate reports, and then simply presenting the CCW with a fait accompli, with there really being nothing to do but try to make the best of it.

However, while I understand it, I don't personally like it. I like my CCW more TNG Federation. I WANT an easy good guy dammit. It might not be the most interesting to write for, but that dosn't mean it has no place in the setting.

[Braden Campbell]

I like my CCW more TNG Federation. I WANT an easy good guy dammit...

The same TNG Federation that refused to acknowledge or deny the illegal (and in the case of the Founders, genocidal) actions of Section 31?

[Carl Gleba]

I like my CCW more TNG Federation. I WANT an easy good guy dammit...

The same TNG Federation that refused to acknowledge or deny the illegal (and in the case of the Founders, genocidal) actions of Section 31?

My thoughts exactly

Section 31 even going back as far as 22nd century via "enterprise".

[taalismn]

Com'on, EVERY nation worth a darn has a Dirty Tricks Department...Even Iain Banks' Culture has the Office of Special Circumstances

[azazel1024]

I do have a question about these new fangle Tachyon communications devices. I assume they are quite large and require a fair amount of power. Not something you'd see on your typical starfighter, or maybe even frigate, right? Also is the maximum range 50 light years? Or is it simply a communications speed of 1 minute per 50 light years?

I am just trying to get a handle for how far systems can really communicate. Most of the earlier books talk about how there are no feasible real time long distance FTL communications devices. Now 1 minute per 50ly isn't really real time, but it is darned close, even over significant distances. A 1hr time lag for 3,000 light years isn't all that bad. At worse you have a couple of day time lag from one end of the 3 Galaxies to the other.

I am hoping/thinking/imagining that Tachyon communications is a bit like the HPG system from battletech? A 50 odd light year maximum range and if systems are close enough together they can relay messages further on. No communications between galaxies except for courier boat and "isolated" systems that don't have any near neighbors are going to have to send courier boats as well.

It seems to lose a lot of the age of sail feel to the setting if everyone can talk to everyone else with at most a couple of day time lag, and probably more like minutes or a couple of hours, instead of having to spend days or for further distances, weeks/months for a message to be carried by courier boat.

[Braden Campbell]

The speed of communications packets was laid out in the Phase World Sourcebook (page 7). I just gave the technology a name.

The message travels at a speed of 100 lyr/hr within galaxies, and 5 times that in the intergalatic void... meaning yes, you can send a message from the Thundercloud to the Anvil.

And it's a reply time of 1 hour per every 50 light-years the message had to travel (roughly), not 1 minute. So, I send a message to a colony 50 light years distant. The message arrives there in 30 mins, and 30 mins later, I get my reply.

[azazel1024]

Okay, I couldn't remember if it was 1min/50 or 1hr/50. The time makes me a bit more comfortable with the concept of just dialing up someone in the Anvil galaxy from the Corkscrew. At least it would take a couple of weeks at a minimum to punch the message to them and the same for a reply.

[DhAkael]

The speed of communications packets was laid out in the Phase World Sourcebook (page 7). I just gave the technology a name.

The message travels at a speed of 100 lyr/hr within galaxies, and 5 times that in the intergalatic void... meaning yes, you can send a message from the Thundercloud to the Anvil.

And it's a reply time of 1 hour per every 50 light-years the message had to travel (roughly), not 1 minute. So, I send a message to a colony 50 light years distant. The message arrives there in 30 mins, and 30 mins later, I get my reply.

And the text says roughly 54 days for a transmission from one end of the trinary to the other...give or take a few celestial annomalies.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I like my CCW more TNG Federation. I WANT an easy good guy dammit...

The same TNG Federation that refused to acknowledge or deny the illegal (and in the case of the Founders, genocidal) actions of Section 31?

Negative. I only watched a few seasons of it

[Nightmask]

I like my CCW more TNG Federation. I WANT an easy good guy dammit...

The same TNG Federation that refused to acknowledge or deny the illegal (and in the case of the Founders, genocidal) actions of Section 31?

Negative. I only watched a few seasons of it

Definitely didn't care for that 'secret evil wing of the federation' junk that was added in during DS9, just awful. The whole point of the Federation was the hope that humanity would get over all that evil xenophobic behavior, indeed the original series spent all sorts of time going around pointing out how much better we'd become by then and somehow the TNG era that was supposedly so much better is engaging in immoral acts all over the place ('gee I'm sorry we can't do anything to save your world, wouldn't want to interfere in its natural destruction by a sun blowing up we can easily fix. You just aren't civilized enough for us to consider important.')

[mumah]

If you want to get historical about it, Colonial England used to hire privateers, pirates who plundered under the pirate flag but sailed for England. Then there were their treatment of the indigenous tribes of the Americas. Biological warfare was invented during that time in the form of blankets covered with small pox. The taking of entire regions of land in trade for beads. Those were governmental practices.

[Nightmask]

If you want to get historical about it, Colonial England used to hire privateers, pirates who plundered under the pirate flag but sailed for England. Then there were their treatment of the indigenous tribes of the Americas. Biological warfare was invented during that time in the form of blankets covered with small pox. The taking of entire regions of land in trade for beads. Those were governmental practices.

Biological warfare is older than that, coming from when things like castle sieges would have them catapulting rotting animal corpses into the castles to spread disease and weaken the defenders.

[taalismn]

If you want to get historical about it, Colonial England used to hire privateers, pirates who plundered under the pirate flag but sailed for England. Then there were their treatment of the indigenous tribes of the Americas. Biological warfare was invented during that time in the form of blankets covered with small pox. The taking of entire regions of land in trade for beads. Those were governmental practices.

Biological warfare is older than that, coming from when things like castle sieges would have them catapulting rotting animal corpses into the castles to spread disease and weaken the defenders.

The Mongols did a lot of that when they were invading Eastern Europe.
Now the irony of the Manhatten-for-beads story is that the Indian tribe that accepted the deal weren't even the local territory holders. They were just passing through hunting and fishing.
And the Spanairds who invaded Mexico wouldn't have been able to pull off their conquest if the Aztecs hadn't utterly annoyed the other tribes and made a whole slew of enemies with their flower wars nonsense(essentially staged conflicts meant to deliver up tribute and sacrifices; the Aztecs exceled in surround-and-isolate-and-oh-now-we're-going-to-have-nice-little-battle-where-we-take-prisoners-for-blood-sacrifice-or-we'll-simply-kill-you-all).

[mumah]

Not much of a sacrifice if you're not sacrificing anything you care about. No wonder the Aztecs were defeated.

[cchopps]

From my notes then, are a few more tidbits about the Kingdom of Desslyth, just for you guys.

Rifter?

Thank you!

C. Chopps

[cchopps]

The Splugorth have had a limited lifespan since, oh, 1992, when Atlantis first came out. When I read that their average lifespan was a quarter million years... and Terri Schiavo was in the news at the time... well, that's where the idea came from.

And now you know.

A Splugorth in a coma? What an intriguing source of a 'hard to find" bio-wizardry or necromancer components.

C. Chopps

[taalismn]

The Splugorth have had a limited lifespan since, oh, 1992, when Atlantis first came out. When I read that their average lifespan was a quarter million years... and Terri Schiavo was in the news at the time... well, that's where the idea came from.

And now you know.

A Splugorth in a coma? What an intriguing source of a 'hard to find" bio-wizardry or necromancer components.

C. Chopps

Okay, THAT'S got some possibilities...A Splugorth with an organ donor card? One it doesn't even know it has?

[ghost2020]

My copy arrived today. I was able to power skim it and I am liking the all the background fluff. Can't wait to dive into the Dominators, always been a fan of that group.

I am sticking with my first comments about the aliens though, I am really not a fan of the anthropomorphic aliens. I just don't care for the "furries", and I think that Aliens Unlimited really took a hit because of that very premise. I like my aliens...well...not so much like zebras and lions.

Otherwise, great cover, great art and looks good otherwise!

[gaby]

You have a point.
Maybe they replace the animal appearance with more alien one if they make aliens of the 3 Galaxys.

[Carl Gleba]

There are a few alien looking aliens in this book as well. I think some of the more animal ones fit the theme of the book nicely.

[azazel1024]

One thing to point out is that a lot of the aliens presented, especially the less alien looking ones might well be genetech experiments.

If so, maybe the genetechs are in to furries? Or have a thing for Africa?

[taalismn]

One thing to point out is that a lot of the aliens presented, especially the less alien looking ones might well be genetech experiments.

If so, maybe the genetechs are in to furries? Or have a thing for Africa?

Gene-Tech: "I'm going to hug him, and kiss him, and squeeze him, and call him George!"

[gaby]

What Aliens races in Thundercloud do you think have the Potential go for TGE?

I would have made more Independent powers.

What would you do if you were the one making Thundercloud?

[taalismn]

What Aliens races in Thundercloud do you think have the Potential go for TGE?

I would have made more Independent powers.

What would you do if you were the one making Thundercloud?

I'd call it "The Puffy White Clouds of Whipped Cream with Ladyfingers and Sweet Cherry Filling and a Sprinkling of Nuts Sundae Galaxy" instead.

[DhAkael]

What Aliens races in Thundercloud do you think have the Potential go for TGE?

I would have made more Independent powers.

What would you do if you were the one making Thundercloud?

I'd call it "The Puffy White Clouds of Whipped Cream with Ladyfingers and Sweet Cherry Filling and a Sprinkling of Nuts Sundae Galaxy" instead.

Well...I've got the perfect thing to go after the TGE's tech base.
My Uncle.
Seriously; he went onto my machine (without my permission and without my being here), accessesed a gubermint site to print a .PDF... and when it didn't work he just left the printer AND the computer on the site..and walked away to have my ma call me (taking 45 minutes for me to return).
Long story short; Printer is bust. Can;t even un-install to re-install the drivers cuz there are no drivers showing up.
My O/S is going SHODAN on me.
And well... yeah.

Clone this man, and send hundreds of copies of him into the maufactories and computer server buildings. I gauren-[censored]-tee he will have the TGE ground to a halt, tri-galaxy-wide, inside of a week.

[gaby]

How do you use Thundercloud,s info?

[taalismn]

How do you use Thundercloud's info?

I use it as a guide for troubleshooting my VCR, for preparing my taxes, and occasionally my personal relationships. It's surprisingly effective for these things.


Why? Is there some other way you can use Thundercloud's info?

[DhAkael]

As a door stop.
Paper weight.
Figuring out the square root of fudge.

[taalismn]

Figuring out the square root of fudge.

It's chocolate.

[gaby]

What Races do you make for Thundercloud?

[taalismn]

What Races do you make for Thundercloud?

Gaby, there's an entire THREAD in this section devoted to that.
http://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=68194&start=0
I've invited you in the past to contribute your own races to it.

[BookWyrm]

YES! Picked it up today. Can't wait to look through it (right now, I'm finishing up Wild Cards XXI: Fort Freak).

[Shorty Lickens]

BUMP!

Just got the book.
I did not like the Colony Creation rules at all. They made no sense compared to the other systems Palladium has already used. They should have used the Mercenary Company rules instead.
Size determines your base points.
Sponsorship determines bonus point in specific areas.
Each area requires you to spend points for the stuff you want a colony to have.
The random percentage rolls means its possible to have a huge, high-tech colony with absolutely no medicine and no real reason for it to be that way. Strikes me as silly.

Other than that, I really like the book.

[Braden Campbell]

Yes, it is entirely possible that a colony was set up but that the medical supplies were shipped elsewhere... or were damaged in transit... or were stolen...l or were sent to the wrong site and are now sitting in the middle of the jungle. Now you're in the middle of the Thundercloud with no medical supplies: what do your characters do?