Fixes to the Rifts magic systems

[Failgoat]

@damien
not having enough P.P.E. and a tard going toe to toe with something that can one shot it, to me, is not directly related. tactics are great. thinking is great.
having a huge amount of non-ritual invocations that i cannot cast by my onesies sucks.

Why?

its called an opinion.
it sucks because i want to play a magic user. i want to learn a high level spell. i want to cast it without help.
i cant make it any plainer for you

[Nightmask]

Why does a world having a lot of ambient magical energy mean to you that magic items would be commonplace?
MAGES aren't commonplace in Rifts.
Why would items they make be?

For much the same reason that the number of weapons manufacturers aren't that common yet you can see their products all over the place.

Huge factory complexes and armies of workers?

The numbers of mages might be relatively low but not so low we shouldn't see any magical items floating around and indeed should see them at least as much as we see TW-items if not moreso since non-TW mages outnumber the TW-mages.

I agree that we shouldn't see NO magical items.
And, in fact, we DO see quite a few of them, even excepting TW items.
But not so many as to make them common.
(Not in most places, anyway)

From your remarks here, you seem to be under the impression that all mages should be able to make magic items.
Care to explain where that comes from?

The general mythology of mages, as it's a common theme that mages craft magic items. So on top of mages not even being able to cast higher level spells because they're too costly they can't even craft magic items to top that off.

[Failgoat]

Why does a world having a lot of ambient magical energy mean to you that magic items would be commonplace?
MAGES aren't commonplace in Rifts.
Why would items they make be?

For much the same reason that the number of weapons manufacturers aren't that common yet you can see their products all over the place.

Huge factory complexes and armies of workers?

The numbers of mages might be relatively low but not so low we shouldn't see any magical items floating around and indeed should see them at least as much as we see TW-items if not moreso since non-TW mages outnumber the TW-mages.

I agree that we shouldn't see NO magical items.
And, in fact, we DO see quite a few of them, even excepting TW items.
But not so many as to make them common.
(Not in most places, anyway)

From your remarks here, you seem to be under the impression that all mages should be able to make magic items.
Care to explain where that comes from?

The general mythology of mages, as it's a common theme that mages craft magic items. So on top of mages not even being able to cast higher level spells because they're too costly they can't even craft magic items to top that off.

this would be acceptable for a game environment with low lvls of magic.

[Damian Magecraft]

@damien
not having enough P.P.E. and a tard going toe to toe with something that can one shot it, to me, is not directly related. tactics are great. thinking is great.
having a huge amount of non-ritual invocations that i cannot cast by my onesies sucks.

Why?

its called an opinion.
it sucks because i want to play a magic user. i want to learn a high level spell. i want to cast it without help.
i cant make it any plainer for you

you can...
What spell can your 11th level LLW not cast by himself?

[Failgoat]

@damien
not having enough P.P.E. and a tard going toe to toe with something that can one shot it, to me, is not directly related. tactics are great. thinking is great.
having a huge amount of non-ritual invocations that i cannot cast by my onesies sucks.

Why?

its called an opinion.
it sucks because i want to play a magic user. i want to learn a high level spell. i want to cast it without help.
i cant make it any plainer for you

you can...
What spell can your 11th level LLW not cast by himself?

with less than 300 P.P.E.? a lot.

[Failgoat]

i dont think you guys are understanding. this is not a complaint about
"waaaaa! im 3rd lvl LLW and i cant kill a GB! this is bs!"

you have a high magic environment with mages that cannot, without help from additional P.P.E. sources, cast a spell that they know.
im not gonna argue about it. the topic wanted to know what we thought needed a fix. this is just one thing i thought could be improved.

have a great 4th of july weekend ppl =)

[Damian Magecraft]

@damien
not having enough P.P.E. and a tard going toe to toe with something that can one shot it, to me, is not directly related. tactics are great. thinking is great.
having a huge amount of non-ritual invocations that i cannot cast by my onesies sucks.

Why?

its called an opinion.
it sucks because i want to play a magic user. i want to learn a high level spell. i want to cast it without help.
i cant make it any plainer for you

you can...
What spell can your 11th level LLW not cast by himself?

with less than 300 P.P.E.? a lot.

Name one.
I Bet with your mage I can cast it by myself.

[Failgoat]

im glad for you bro. i really am.
my reserve is less than 300. things that cost more than that require P.P.E. from another source other than my personal reserve.

[Damian Magecraft]

im glad for you bro. i really am.
my reserve is less than 300. things that cost more than that require P.P.E. from another source other than my personal reserve.

you have up to 900 personal reserve available...
when you choose the time and place of the battle.

[Killer Cyborg]

maybe an original selling point of rifts earth was that mages arent commonplace, but they are.

Source?

ok i'll reword just for you.
but they have been in my gaming experience

is that better cyborg?

It's certainly clearer, but has it occurred to you that your gaming experiences might be based on GMs that overstock the gameworld with mages?

In the books, they're not rare or anything, but they're not an everyday occurrence either, outside of certain cities.

and from what im seeing to your other responses to me, it boils down to a difference of opinion. i think having all that magic around should have a lot of magic items to go along with it. its good that you see it differently. its not wierd at all. but thats ok, i accept that im wierd to you because i think differently

We can agree on that.
When I encounter such a strong difference in views, I try to discern the origin of the difference.

[Failgoat]

excuse me but my suggestion had nothing to do with times of power or additional P.P.E. available at L.L. and nexus'.
is there something that iv grievously missed that triples someones P.P.E. reserve? please tell me, my group might collectively orgasm if there is....

[Killer Cyborg]

@damien
not having enough P.P.E. and a tard going toe to toe with something that can one shot it, to me, is not directly related. tactics are great. thinking is great.
having a huge amount of non-ritual invocations that i cannot cast by my onesies sucks.

Why?

its called an opinion.

Yes, it is.
I'm trying to find out if there is reasoning behind the opinion, or if it's just some random event with no cause or origin.

it sucks because i want to play a magic user. i want to learn a high level spell. i want to cast it without help.
i cant make it any plainer for you

You might be able to make it plainer why you want to cast high level spells without help (or prep).
Why's it so important to be able for an individual to re-arrange reality on a whim, rather than have to have some assistance and/or preparation?

[Failgoat]

maybe an original selling point of rifts earth was that mages arent commonplace, but they are.

Source?

ok i'll reword just for you.
but they have been in my gaming experience

is that better cyborg?

It's certainly clearer, but has it occurred to you that your gaming experiences might be based on GMs that overstock the gameworld with mages?

In the books, they're not rare or anything, but they're not an everyday occurrence either, outside of certain cities.

and from what im seeing to your other responses to me, it boils down to a difference of opinion. i think having all that magic around should have a lot of magic items to go along with it. its good that you see it differently. its not wierd at all. but thats ok, i accept that im wierd to you because i think differently

We can agree on that.
When I encounter such a strong difference in views, I try to discern the origin of the difference.

ya it occurred to me. wouldnt overstocking be a matter of your perception? or is there canon numbers on the number of freelance/unaffiliated magic users roaming Rifts Earth?

[Killer Cyborg]

From your remarks here, you seem to be under the impression that all mages should be able to make magic items.
Care to explain where that comes from?

The general mythology of mages, as it's a common theme that mages craft magic items.

For example?

[Damian Magecraft]

excuse me but my suggestion had nothing to do with times of power or additional P.P.E. available at L.L. and nexus'.
is there something that iv grievously missed that triples someones P.P.E. reserve? please tell me, my group might collectively orgasm if there is....

all Mages can "overcharge" their personal Reserve to 3x for 1 minute per PE point.
You still need a source but hey you can "steal" up to 1/2 a persons reserve if they are unaware of it.
and then there is the free offerings (up to 3/4 IIRC) from the willing (like the Man at arms classes that dont use their PPE.)
Its a matter of planning. mages are not a reactionary class. They act not react.

[Failgoat]

i seriously dont need to make anything plainer to you. i dont need you to understand and see things my way. this was a suggestion thread.
i made some suggestions. get over yourselves.
your awesome. we get it.
moving on.

now, somebody actually gave me some useful information.
i had no idea i could overcharge my PPE based on my PE score. thats awesome
the rest doesnt apply cuz that is NOT the mages personal reserve. thats PPE he's taking temporarily from other sources.

im done. hope my suggestion was useful to somebody somewhere.

edit: damien where can i read about that overcharging?

[Nightmask]

im glad for you bro. i really am.
my reserve is less than 300. things that cost more than that require P.P.E. from another source other than my personal reserve.

you have up to 900 personal reserve available...
when you choose the time and place of the battle.

Too bad battles being what they are one doesn't generally get to choose when they fight, much like your enemies aren't just who you decide they are but who they decide they are as well. Since one hasn't the luxury of deciding such things one must consider in generally only those assets they always have readily available, i.e. the less than 300 PPE and not expect to have a Ley Line or Nexus around to draw energy from. While one can overcharge it requires supplementing oneself with Ley Line/Nexus Points one can't just be anywhere supercharging all the time.

[Nightmask]

excuse me but my suggestion had nothing to do with times of power or additional P.P.E. available at L.L. and nexus'.
is there something that iv grievously missed that triples someones P.P.E. reserve? please tell me, my group might collectively orgasm if there is....

all Mages can "overcharge" their personal Reserve to 3x for 1 minute per PE point.
You still need a source but hey you can "steal" up to 1/2 a persons reserve if they are unaware of it.
and then there is the free offerings (up to 3/4 IIRC) from the willing (like the Man at arms classes that dont use their PPE.)
Its a matter of planning. mages are not a reactionary class. They act not react.

As I just noted elsewhere one doesn't have the luxury of always being able to plan, they don't get to decide that they're always acting just like everyone else they're often reacting to things and having to deal with events on the fly with what's at hand.

[Nightmask]

i seriously dont need to make anything plainer to you. i dont need you to understand and see things my way. this was a suggestion thread.
i made some suggestions. get over yourselves.
your awesome. we get it.
moving on.

now, somebody actually gave me some useful information.
i had no idea i could overcharge my PPE based on my PE score. thats awesome
the rest doesnt apply cuz that is NOT the mages personal reserve. thats PPE he's taking temporarily from other sources.

im done. hope my suggestion was useful to somebody somewhere.

edit: damien where can i read about that overcharging?

The PPE overcharging requires a nearby Ley Line or Nexus to draw the extra energy from, it can't be done just anywhere. But if you've got a high base and overcharge to the max and have Energy Sphere you can bank it for really high cost spells. Also there's debate because of the wording whether the idea one can overcharge means you can go from X to 3X or if you're adding 3X to your base of X for a grand total of 4X. Given the extreme cost of those higher level spells 4X seems more appropriate but you'll find as many who'll reject that as 'too powerful' and insist it's 3X.

[Damian Magecraft]

i seriously dont need to make anything plainer to you. i dont need you to understand and see things my way. this was a suggestion thread.
i made some suggestions. get over yourselves.
your awesome. we get it.
moving on.

now, somebody actually gave me some useful information.
i had no idea i could overcharge my PPE based on my PE score. thats awesome
the rest doesnt apply cuz that is NOT the mages personal reserve. thats PPE he's taking temporarily from other sources.

im done. hope my suggestion was useful to somebody somewhere.

edit: damien where can i read about that overcharging?

Book of Magic is the best place to read up on it.
You do need have sources to increase your Base as I said elsewhere. But there are methods of banking it as well. (as others have stated).

[Damian Magecraft]

excuse me but my suggestion had nothing to do with times of power or additional P.P.E. available at L.L. and nexus'.
is there something that iv grievously missed that triples someones P.P.E. reserve? please tell me, my group might collectively orgasm if there is....

all Mages can "overcharge" their personal Reserve to 3x for 1 minute per PE point.
You still need a source but hey you can "steal" up to 1/2 a persons reserve if they are unaware of it.
and then there is the free offerings (up to 3/4 IIRC) from the willing (like the Man at arms classes that dont use their PPE.)
Its a matter of planning. mages are not a reactionary class. They act not react.

As I just noted elsewhere one doesn't have the luxury of always being able to plan, they don't get to decide that they're always acting just like everyone else they're often reacting to things and having to deal with events on the fly with what's at hand.

and in those cases you use whats available.
Low level spells. They more economical in terms of both energy and actions.
you do not use a bowling ball to swat an insect it uses more energy than is required for the desired effect and is likely to fail.
and to a Mage any unplanned battle is just that... an annoyance not a threat.

[Proseksword]

So, this thread got me looking into some of the spell opportunities out there, and I've found that the more times I read it, the more I love the spell Talisman.

Casting Talisman requires 500 P.P.E., which means that a Ley Line Walker using average rolls must be sixth level before he may cast it (needs to have a P.P.E. base of 167, which may be tripled during a ritual by drawing off a Ley Line or other participants). Once the Ley Line Walker becomes able to cast the spell, however, the material components for a Talisman are of negligible cost. A sixth level Ley Line Walker sitting on a Ley Line could easily construct a dozen Talismans and place them all over his body over the course of a day, filling each with extra P.P.E. or combat spells.

So, with twelve talismans, a Ley Line Walker could grant himself 600 extra P.P.E. he can easily carry around with him, or around triple that in already prepared spells waiting for him to trigger from the appropriate talisman. Want your 6th level Ley Line Walker to annihilate a Glitter Boy? Get twelve P.P.E. bank talismans. You could cast that Annihilate spell completely from banked P.P.E. and have plenty of your own for Carpet of Adhesion, Invisibility, Invincible Armor, etc.

[Nightmask]

excuse me but my suggestion had nothing to do with times of power or additional P.P.E. available at L.L. and nexus'.
is there something that iv grievously missed that triples someones P.P.E. reserve? please tell me, my group might collectively orgasm if there is....

all Mages can "overcharge" their personal Reserve to 3x for 1 minute per PE point.
You still need a source but hey you can "steal" up to 1/2 a persons reserve if they are unaware of it.
and then there is the free offerings (up to 3/4 IIRC) from the willing (like the Man at arms classes that dont use their PPE.)
Its a matter of planning. mages are not a reactionary class. They act not react.

As I just noted elsewhere one doesn't have the luxury of always being able to plan, they don't get to decide that they're always acting just like everyone else they're often reacting to things and having to deal with events on the fly with what's at hand.

and in those cases you use whats available.
Low level spells. They more economical in terms of both energy and actions.
you do not use a bowling ball to swat an insect it uses more energy than is required for the desired effect and is likely to fail.
and to a Mage any unplanned battle is just that... an annoyance not a threat.

Such astounding overconfidence there, to dismiss all such situations as nothing important, something that is a staple trope of villains (and overly-arrogant heroes ) who dismiss the hero(es ) as just an annoyance only to end up sent down in ruin because they were too arrogant and didn't take a threat as being credible that they should have. An unexpected battle with a CS Kill Squad or Atlantis Slaver Group isn't an annoyance it's a threat and minor spells aren't going to see you through to victory, the best they're going to do is give you a chance to run and hope they don't catch you and finish you off anyway.

You like repeating that 'don't use a bowling ball for swatting a fly', well the flip side of that is 'don't go trying to use a fly swatter when you need tank'. A squad of SAMAS or Glitter Boys aren't insects and you don't take them out with low level spells and one is overly confident and foolish to insist that those low level spells are more than they really are. It just reminds me of various Forgotten Realms stories where the Red Wizards are always going after the Simbul so supremely confident in their magic only to fall singly and in groups because they put too much faith in their spells and rated them as more than they truly were.

[Nightmask]

So, this thread got me looking into some of the spell opportunities out there, and I've found that the more times I read it, the more I love the spell Talisman.

Casting Talisman requires 500 P.P.E., which means that a Ley Line Walker using average rolls must be sixth level before he may cast it (needs to have a P.P.E. base of 167, which may be tripled during a ritual by drawing off a Ley Line or other participants). Once the Ley Line Walker becomes able to cast the spell, however, the material components for a Talisman are of negligible cost. A sixth level Ley Line Walker sitting on a Ley Line could easily construct a dozen Talismans and place them all over his body over the course of a day, filling each with extra P.P.E. or combat spells.

So, with twelve talismans, a Ley Line Walker could grant himself 600 extra P.P.E. he can easily carry around with him, or around triple that in already prepared spells waiting for him to trigger from the appropriate talisman. Want your 6th level Ley Line Walker to annihilate a Glitter Boy? Get twelve P.P.E. bank talismans. You could cast that Annihilate spell completely from banked P.P.E. and have plenty of your own for Carpet of Adhesion, Invisibility, Invincible Armor, etc.

That depends on how many of those the GM would allow the PC to make use of at one time, loading oneself down with Talismans would be quite problematic when you consider everything else you also need to have handy. Unless they've changed the spell it only stores fresh 50 PPE (and 30 PPE when recharged) so while you could cast a single Annihilate potentially with a dozen fresh Talismans that's all you'd pull off. You'd be better off teaming with a Wu Shih, their Create Vajra spell can create an object that potentially can story hundreds of PPE at a time.

[Noon]

I think instead of looking at numbers we should look at the experience you want the player to have. Like, are you, ala old D&D, supposed to suck at low levels but get awesome latter? Or pretty much match a head hunter? Or supposed to do all the defensive spell stuff that no one really remembers, while the headhunter does the big kill that everyone remembers?

[Proseksword]

That depends on how many of those the GM would allow the PC to make use of at one time

Considering you can draw P.P.E. from multiple people at once, I'd think it'd be a real jerk GM who tried to limit your access to Talisman P.P.E., but I guess people will be people.

....loading oneself down with Talismans would be quite problematic when you consider everything else you also need to have handy.

According to the spell description, a Talisman need be no larger than a safety pin. Having them handy would be no more difficult than having clips on a jacket or belt.

Unless they've changed the spell it only stores fresh 50 PPE (and 30 PPE when recharged) so while you could cast a single Annihilate potentially with a dozen fresh Talismans that's all you'd pull off.

Yeah, but considering you just one shot killed most larger power armor or robots, I wouldn't complain.

[Killer Cyborg]

wouldnt overstocking be a matter of your perception? or is there canon numbers on the number of freelance/unaffiliated magic users roaming Rifts Earth?

Hard numbers?
Not that I know of.

But we do have plenty of indication about the relative commonness of things.

From the main book:

The average person is not likely to have psionics nor mega-damage weapons and armor. He is not a master of magic nor holder of great truths. He is one of the ordinary folk who live and struggle with the day to day hardships of life.

The entire world is mostly wilderness with scattered little towns, villages, and outposts. Cities are fairly uncommon, generally speaking. The environment, regardless of the level of technology or magic, is feudal-like, with kingdoms rather than cities, states, provinces, or nations as thought of in the 20th century.
The majority of these feudal kingdoms are ruled by, or appoint, or employ, a protector of group of protectors, much like the knights of old. The protector(s) is always a powerful warrior, frequently armed with power armor or giant robot vehicles. Men of arms seem to be the norm among these champions, but they can be mages, psychic, mutants, and even monsters.

RUE 185

Theoretically, anybody can learn magic; however, it is an extremely difficult process that proves impossible for most people.

RUE 190

Spell knowledge is power, thus it is guarded jealously by most mages. Even in friendly and open magical societies like Lazlo, New Lazlo, and Tolkeen, there are some spells that are guarded secrets, rarely taught. These generally include most spells above level 10.

The easiest spells to find are levels 1-4, followed by levels 5-7. Beyond this, the secrets of magic are just that, secret.

(those two don't have to do with the commoness of mages, but it points out that being able to cast 11th level spells isn't something that your average PC should expect to be able to do)

[Damian Magecraft]

excuse me but my suggestion had nothing to do with times of power or additional P.P.E. available at L.L. and nexus'.
is there something that iv grievously missed that triples someones P.P.E. reserve? please tell me, my group might collectively orgasm if there is....

all Mages can "overcharge" their personal Reserve to 3x for 1 minute per PE point.
You still need a source but hey you can "steal" up to 1/2 a persons reserve if they are unaware of it.
and then there is the free offerings (up to 3/4 IIRC) from the willing (like the Man at arms classes that dont use their PPE.)
Its a matter of planning. mages are not a reactionary class. They act not react.

As I just noted elsewhere one doesn't have the luxury of always being able to plan, they don't get to decide that they're always acting just like everyone else they're often reacting to things and having to deal with events on the fly with what's at hand.

and in those cases you use whats available.
Low level spells. They more economical in terms of both energy and actions.
you do not use a bowling ball to swat an insect it uses more energy than is required for the desired effect and is likely to fail.
and to a Mage any unplanned battle is just that... an annoyance not a threat.

Such astounding overconfidence there, to dismiss all such situations as nothing important, something that is a staple trope of villains (and overly-arrogant heroes ) who dismiss the hero(es ) as just an annoyance only to end up sent down in ruin because they were too arrogant and didn't take a threat as being credible that they should have. An unexpected battle with a CS Kill Squad or Atlantis Slaver Group isn't an annoyance it's a threat and minor spells aren't going to see you through to victory, the best they're going to do is give you a chance to run and hope they don't catch you and finish you off anyway.

its not over confidence if you can back it up. Its not arrogance... if its true. Its obvious you and I play very different games... I dont play in points of light games...
There are warning signs for the Kill squad in the area, same for the slavers too.
And if you cant deal with a slaver group with minor spells you are much sadder mage than I imagined.

You like repeating that 'don't use a bowling ball for swatting a fly', well the flip side of that is 'don't go trying to use a fly swatter when you need tank'. A squad of SAMAS or Glitter Boys aren't insects and you don't take them out with low level spells and one is overly confident and foolish to insist that those low level spells are more than they really are. It just reminds me of various Forgotten Realms stories where the Red Wizards are always going after the Simbul so supremely confident in their magic only to fall singly and in groups because they put too much faith in their spells and rated them as more than they truly were.

so let me see...
I cant hear the samas's comming?
I cant hear the GB?
There were no signs that they were coming after me or my chosen protectorate?

way to stack the deck with an implausible scenario.
Now I see why you think mages need so much help.
You are stuck in the proverbial "Kick in door, kill monster that did not hear me kill the one next door, loot room, rinse and repeat." mentality.
Of course in your nothing suffers from causality world mages would be getting the short end of the stick.
If a GM did that to the players around here he would very quickly find that the only players he will ever have are 10 years old.

[Killer Cyborg]

I cant hear the GB?

He probably tip-toed.
Besides, those things aren't very easy to spot, you know.
They blend.

[Nightmask]

I cant hear the GB?

He probably tip-toed.
Besides, those things aren't very easy to spot, you know.
They blend.

Right, what with the pilots being too stupid to attempt to camouflage their biggest weakness. After all only mages have working brain cells so as to be able to make plans and formulate ways to attack a foe. Oh and not like they don't have a 2 MILE range on their weapon and even augmented hearing doesn't even work over half that distance, so sure somehow the mage can hear something 2 miles away whose weapon fires rounds that travel far faster than the speed of sound so you aren't going to hear those first few rounds come tearing in as they outrace the shockwave they create.

Seriously, if you're going to try and mock something might want to put more thought into it lest you end up mocking yourself with the moon-sized holes in your efforts. Just because it's a Glitter Boy it's by no means a given someone's going to have any clue it's in the area. One could easily fail to detect the glint off of it during the day at such extreme ranges, they certainly aren't going to hear it, and at night getting around with nightvision optics you aren't going to even get a chance of the glint. You have to be a lot closer to it to affect it with magic than it has to be to affect you with the Boom Cannon as well.

[Damian Magecraft]

I cant hear the GB?

He probably tip-toed.
Besides, those things aren't very easy to spot, you know.
They blend.

Right, what with the pilots being too stupid to attempt to camouflage their biggest weakness. After all only mages have working brain cells so as to be able to make plans and formulate ways to attack a foe. Oh and not like they don't have a 2 MILE range on their weapon and even augmented hearing doesn't even work over half that distance, so sure somehow the mage can hear something 2 miles away whose weapon fires rounds that travel far faster than the speed of sound so you aren't going to hear those first few rounds come tearing in as they outrace the shockwave they create.

Seriously, if you're going to try and mock something might want to put more thought into it lest you end up mocking yourself with the moon-sized holes in your efforts. Just because it's a Glitter Boy it's by no means a given someone's going to have any clue it's in the area. One could easily fail to detect the glint off of it during the day at such extreme ranges, they certainly aren't going to hear it, and at night getting around with nightvision optics you aren't going to even get a chance of the glint. You have to be a lot closer to it to affect it with magic than it has to be to affect you with the Boom Cannon as well.

and the GB knows to shoot me specifically why?
again no causality...
give me a plausible scenario or admit you do not know as much about mages as you think you do...
there is a reason I have the title I do under my avatar.

[Killer Cyborg]

I cant hear the GB?

He probably tip-toed.
Besides, those things aren't very easy to spot, you know.
They blend.

Right, what with the pilots being too stupid to attempt to camouflage their biggest weakness.

Generally, they don't bother.
Of course, for stealth purposes, a smart pilot certainly would... but you didn't give us a scenario where the GB is attempting to ambush the mage.

After all only mages have working brain cells so as to be able to make plans and formulate ways to attack a foe.

Not even mages, the way some people play them.

Oh and not like they don't have a 2 MILE range on their weapon

True.
But it IS very much like the scenario we were presented with included the GB being within range of the Annihilate spell, which is 500'+100'/level.
What level mage were you thinking?

[Shark_Force]

i'm a bit confused as to what magic-user is getting level 10+ spells and *doesn't* know how to make talismans or scrolls in rifts.

between various spells that can increase your available PPE (such as energy sphere), access to ley lines, and essentially free casting (just takes time and an object, any object)... there is no reason a powerful mage (ie the kind that might even know the annihilate spell) wouldn't also know the useful spells that let them stock up on spellcasting power.

of course, perhaps i'm crazy, but i don't seem to recall the glitter boy ability that lets them repair their armor for free instead of spending thousands of credits on it, or the glitter boy ability that lets them teleport, or the glitter boy ability that lets them become invisible, etc...

glitter boys are very powerful in one specific way. but frankly, a magic-using character can walk into a town and end a drought, raise the dead, command demons to do their will, and can also hurl balls of fire at their enemies (provided they feel the need to cast a spell instead of just shooting things).

the glitter boy is pretty much good at one thing and one thing only. if you need something shot, preferably at long range with little to no cover available, you want a glitter boy. if you encounter any problem that cannot be solved by shooting someone or something, the glitter boy is probably less useful than a vagabond.

spellcasters (or at least, most spellcasters) are not all about blowing stuff up in rifts. that is not a problem, that is a feature. it leaves the people that aren't spellcasters a reason to exist. if i had a ley line walker that does all the stuff that ley line walkers currently do, *and* could also deal damage like a glitter boy, then what exactly would be the point in bringing a glitter boy into the party? you may as well get rid of that useless buffoon, and replace them with another spellcaster who actually brings something useful to the party.

[Athos]

I Bet with your mage I can cast it by myself.

Wow, aren't you special, you go girl. Open those dimensional rifts, throw those annihilate bombs. But for those of us that stick to the rules, its a bit harder...

[Athos]

It appears so obvious from this conversation that they could make a few simple changes to make mages more equal with tech:

1) Double PPE.

2) Scale spells, so that higher level mages do more damage than lower level mages. example, fire bolt might be 4d6 + 1d6 per level MD.

3) Make it possible for mages other than TWs to create magic items with more than the current 15th level spell. It is ok for bullets and arrows and such, but there needs to be mroe.

And for all you technophiles out there that hate the idea of magic reaching some kind of parity with tech, tough.

[Killer Cyborg]

glitter boys are very powerful in one specific way. but frankly, a magic-using character can walk into a town and end a drought, raise the dead, command demons to do their will, and can also hurl balls of fire at their enemies (provided they feel the need to cast a spell instead of just shooting things).

the glitter boy is pretty much good at one thing and one thing only. if you need something shot, preferably at long range with little to no cover available, you want a glitter boy. if you encounter any problem that cannot be solved by shooting someone or something, the glitter boy is probably less useful than a vagabond.

Pretty much.
Which is why I find it odd that people want mages not only to be more versatile than GBs, but also to be able to beat a GB in his one area of expertise.

spellcasters (or at least, most spellcasters) are not all about blowing stuff up in rifts. that is not a problem, that is a feature. it leaves the people that aren't spellcasters a reason to exist. if i had a ley line walker that does all the stuff that ley line walkers currently do, *and* could also deal damage like a glitter boy, then what exactly would be the point in bringing a glitter boy into the party? you may as well get rid of that useless buffoon, and replace them with another spellcaster who actually brings something useful to the party.

Word.

[Damian Magecraft]

I Bet with your mage I can cast it by myself.

Wow, aren't you special, you go girl. Open those dimensional rifts, throw those annihilate bombs. But for those of us that stick to the rules, its a bit harder...

Apparently I am a better mage than you.
Some one points out that they can do what you cannot so they must be cheating? (how very grade school of you.)
Maybe.... Just Maybe... someone knows a great deal more about this aspect of the game?
Oh but wait....
Then that would mean that you (gasp!) are wrong.

[Damian Magecraft]

spellcasters (or at least, most spellcasters) are not all about blowing stuff up in rifts. that is not a problem, that is a feature. it leaves the people that aren't spellcasters a reason to exist. if i had a ley line walker that does all the stuff that ley line walkers currently do, *and* could also deal damage like a glitter boy, then what exactly would be the point in bringing a glitter boy into the party? you may as well get rid of that useless buffoon, and replace them with another spellcaster who actually brings something useful to the party.

Word.

agreed.

[Failgoat]

well its obvious some people think the magic system in this game is JUST FINE. great, go make a post about it. this thread is for suggestions about changing the magic system
if you think its fine, you dont need to post here and make arguments. but i guess having 6000 or 20000 posts gives you that authority.

Such astounding overconfidence there, to dismiss all such situations as nothing important, something that is a staple trope of villains (and overly-arrogant heroes ) who dismiss the hero(es ) as just an annoyance only to end up sent down in ruin because they were too arrogant and didn't take a threat as being credible that they should have. An unexpected battle with a CS Kill Squad or Atlantis Slaver Group isn't an annoyance it's a threat and minor spells aren't going to see you through to victory, the best they're going to do is give you a chance to run and hope they don't catch you and finish you off anyway.

You like repeating that 'don't use a bowling ball for swatting a fly', well the flip side of that is 'don't go trying to use a fly swatter when you need tank'. A squad of SAMAS or Glitter Boys aren't insects and you don't take them out with low level spells and one is overly confident and foolish to insist that those low level spells are more than they really are. It just reminds me of various Forgotten Realms stories where the Red Wizards are always going after the Simbul so supremely confident in their magic only to fall singly and in groups because they put too much faith in their spells and rated them as more than they truly were.

his/her ego is rather unbecoming isnt it?

That depends on how many of those the GM would allow the PC to make use of at one time, loading oneself down with Talismans would be quite problematic when you consider everything else you also need to have handy. Unless they've changed the spell it only stores fresh 50 PPE (and 30 PPE when recharged) so while you could cast a single Annihilate potentially with a dozen fresh Talismans that's all you'd pull off. You'd be better off teaming with a Wu Shih, their Create Vajra spell can create an object that potentially can story hundreds of PPE at a time.

not to mention flavor. not everyone wants to have 15 talismans on them. i prefer a mix of magic items with a variety of effects. As well, iv never played with a gm that didnt use some kind of conflicting magic rule,i.e. youv got 8 magic items on that one part of your body no they dont all work...a lot of it is flavor and playstyle and preference. why they feel so obligated to shoot down others playstyles i donno.

[Failgoat]

But we do have plenty of indication about the relative commonness of things.

From the main book:

The average person is not likely to have psionics nor mega-damage weapons and armor. He is not a master of magic nor holder of great truths. He is one of the ordinary folk who live and struggle with the day to day hardships of life.

in no way, in any post about this, am i talking about the average person.

The entire world is mostly wilderness with scattered little towns, villages, and outposts. Cities are fairly uncommon, generally speaking. The environment, regardless of the level of technology or magic, is feudal-like, with kingdoms rather than cities, states, provinces, or nations as thought of in the 20th century.
The majority of these feudal kingdoms are ruled by, or appoint, or employ, a protector of group of protectors, much like the knights of old. The protector(s) is always a powerful warrior, frequently armed with power armor or giant robot vehicles. Men of arms seem to be the norm among these champions, but they can be mages, psychic, mutants, and even monsters.

i wish you would do more of just this. offer information without getting so heady over it.
i actually appreciate it when people pass knowledge onto me that i did not know as i find it very difficult to remember all aspects of a game that i own 60+ books for. its just hard to do when you attack suggestions. but thank you anyway. so it IS more common for appointed protectors to be men at arms. but that does not really apply to the perception of how many unaffiliated magic users are roaming the world. which any gm apparently can decide for themselves.

RUE 185

Theoretically, anybody can learn magic; however, it is an extremely difficult process that proves impossible for most people.

most chumps, ahhem, people, are not PC's.

RUE 190

Spell knowledge is power, thus it is guarded jealously by most mages. Even in friendly and open magical societies like Lazlo, New Lazlo, and Tolkeen, there are some spells that are guarded secrets, rarely taught. These generally include most spells above level 10.

iv always played it this way. the rifts groups iv been in rarely buy magic beyond 8th or so level.

The easiest spells to find are levels 1-4, followed by levels 5-7. Beyond this, the secrets of magic are just that, secret.

agreed.
(those two don't have to do with the commoness of mages, but it points out that being able to cast 11th level spells isn't something that your average PC should expect to be able to do)

nope. wrong. how difficult it is to get a spell, or buy a spell, or how rare mages are, or how guarded they are with their secrets, has absolutely nothing to do with how difficult it is for said spell caster to cast it once they know the spell

[Failgoat]

spellcasters (or at least, most spellcasters) are not all about blowing stuff up in rifts. that is not a problem, that is a feature. it leaves the people that aren't spellcasters a reason to exist. if i had a ley line walker that does all the stuff that ley line walkers currently do, *and* could also deal damage like a glitter boy, then what exactly would be the point in bringing a glitter boy into the party? you may as well get rid of that useless buffoon, and replace them with another spellcaster who actually brings something useful to the party.

flavor. which was why i was asking for balance. i do have a gundam freak who, even if LLW were able to pimp slap gods en masse and rule the megaverse, he would still want to play a GB lol....

[Failgoat]

It appears so obvious from this conversation that they could make a few simple changes to make mages more equal with tech:

1) Double PPE.

2) Scale spells, so that higher level mages do more damage than lower level mages. example, fire bolt might be 4d6 + 1d6 per level MD.

3) Make it possible for mages other than TWs to create magic items with more than the current 15th level spell. It is ok for bullets and arrows and such, but there needs to be mroe.

And for all you technophiles out there that hate the idea of magic reaching some kind of parity with tech, tough.

these are good suggestions. need to be tested tho.

[Failgoat]

I Bet with your mage I can cast it by myself.

Wow, aren't you special, you go girl. Open those dimensional rifts, throw those annihilate bombs. But for those of us that stick to the rules, its a bit harder...

Apparently I am a better mage than you.
Some one points out that they can do what you cannot so they must be cheating? (how very grade school of you.)
Maybe.... Just Maybe... someone knows a great deal more about this aspect of the game?
Oh but wait....
Then that would mean that you (gasp!) are wrong.

i wish the discussion could be more about helping and informing, and improving Rifts magic system as opposed to "im right, your wrong"
i cant stand your attitude damien, but your entitled i guess eh?
and how does your title make you so much more awesome than anyone?
to quote one of my favorite movies, "thats like being the smartest kid with down syndrome"
but hey, i guess if a little title under your avatar at a forum for a game goes to your head, your pretty easy to inflate.

[Failgoat]

so in conclusion, all over inflated egos aside, i would like to ammend this one suggestion. perhaps just learning a spell doesnt mean that the mage should be able to cast it without external aid. but, I'd like high level spell casters to be able to cast the high level spells more easily with their own P.P.E. Not some 3rd lvl LLW rolling annihilate off like its butta. soooo....maybe a revamp to the amount of P.P.E. that a pure spell casting class receives from leveling?

[Damian Magecraft]

so in conclusion, all over inflated egos aside, i would like to ammend this one suggestion. perhaps just learning a spell doesnt mean that the mage should be able to cast it without external aid. but, I'd like high level spell casters to be able to cast the high level spells more easily with their own P.P.E. Not some 3rd lvl LLW rolling annihilate off like its butta. soooo....maybe a revamp to the amount of P.P.E. that a pure spell casting class receives from leveling?

funny how only those who say the set up is fine as is are the ones with inflated egos...
But then I guess if anyone dares to disagree with you they must be an ass eh?

[Shark_Force]

spellcasters (or at least, most spellcasters) are not all about blowing stuff up in rifts. that is not a problem, that is a feature. it leaves the people that aren't spellcasters a reason to exist. if i had a ley line walker that does all the stuff that ley line walkers currently do, *and* could also deal damage like a glitter boy, then what exactly would be the point in bringing a glitter boy into the party? you may as well get rid of that useless buffoon, and replace them with another spellcaster who actually brings something useful to the party.

flavor. which was why i was asking for balance. i do have a gundam freak who, even if LLW were able to pimp slap gods en masse and rule the megaverse, he would still want to play a GB lol....

palladium doesn't obsess over balancing things by making things exactly the same in combat. if you want a game like that, why not try 4th edition D&D? you have your rogues that deal 3d6 rogue-y damage, your wizards that deal 3d6 wizard-y damage, your fighters that deal 3d6 fighter-y damage, etc. everyone's the same, and the classes are dull dull dull and barely worth the bother of making the choice.

in palladium, what you can do out of combat is as important, if not more important, when compared to what you can do in combat, and classes aren't even necessarily balanced based on that measurement either (for example, a demi-god with the powers of both a mind melter and a shifter is clearly more powerful than either a mind melter or a shifter, but that's not something that palladium worries about, it's up to the GM to balance parties in these games).

again, the spellcasters that are not as good at some things (in exchange for being much better at other things) is a feature of the game. if you want magic that works like D&D magic, go play D&D. if you want both magic and technology, then just grab the rules from d20 modern (and it's various supplements, such as d20 future) and go nuts. but i don't see why it would be a design goal for rifts to make spellcasters nothing more than warriors that use spells instead of guns.

[Failgoat]

so in conclusion, all over inflated egos aside, i would like to ammend this one suggestion. perhaps just learning a spell doesnt mean that the mage should be able to cast it without external aid. but, I'd like high level spell casters to be able to cast the high level spells more easily with their own P.P.E. Not some 3rd lvl LLW rolling annihilate off like its butta. soooo....maybe a revamp to the amount of P.P.E. that a pure spell casting class receives from leveling?

funny how only those who say the set up is fine as is are the ones with inflated egos...
But then I guess if anyone dares to disagree with you they must be an ass eh?

really? when did i say that? i reacted to their inflated ego. never did i say if you like the system you have an ego problem.
shoveling words into others mouths seems to be a problem prevailent to most boards on the net tho. so, whatevs

[Killer Cyborg]

But we do have plenty of indication about the relative commonness of things.

From the main book:

The average person is not likely to have psionics nor mega-damage weapons and armor. He is not a master of magic nor holder of great truths. He is one of the ordinary folk who live and struggle with the day to day hardships of life.

in no way, in any post about this, am i talking about the average person.

You're talking about how common mages are.
The above passage describes a world where the average person is not any kind of adventurer, much less a mage.
Which means that mages aren't very common.

And the fact that the average person is not likely to have mega-damage armor or weapons would mean that they're not likely to have magic weapons either.
Conversely, if magical items were common, then the average person could have a decent chance of having some, which would change the setting significantly.

The entire world is mostly wilderness with scattered little towns, villages, and outposts. Cities are fairly uncommon, generally speaking. The environment, regardless of the level of technology or magic, is feudal-like, with kingdoms rather than cities, states, provinces, or nations as thought of in the 20th century.
The majority of these feudal kingdoms are ruled by, or appoint, or employ, a protector of group of protectors, much like the knights of old. The protector(s) is always a powerful warrior, frequently armed with power armor or giant robot vehicles. Men of arms seem to be the norm among these champions, but they can be mages, psychic, mutants, and even monsters.

i wish you would do more of just this. offer information without getting so heady over it.
i actually appreciate it when people pass knowledge onto me that i did not know as i find it very difficult to remember all aspects of a game that i own 60+ books for. its just hard to do when you attack suggestions. but thank you anyway. so it IS more common for appointed protectors to be men at arms. but that does not really apply to the perception of how many unaffiliated magic users are roaming the world. which any gm apparently can decide for themselves.

I can come off as dismissive and arrogant at times, but in my defense, I kind of am.

On the other hand, I'm generally happy to pass on information to other people, and have a strong knowledge of the rules of the game, as well as the setting.
If you ever want to know my source for a piece of information, you generally just have to ask.

The thing is, I've been on this website for something like a decade now, and I'm getting older, with less free time to pore through the books to cite passages for people.
The above quote that you found helpful was pulled from a previous post I made, from a very similar discussion.
Things run in cycles here, and the same topics come up again, and again, and again... and even I can get weary of rehashing stuff that I've said repeatedly in the past.

Also, I get tired of people coming in and complaining that the system/setting is broken and must be fixed when they don't even really know what the setting/system IS.
Not that it's always their fault for not knowing; the game is so spread out and disorganized that it's difficult to impossible to keep track of every detail.
The conversation that quote was pulled from was one of the many "Mega-damage is stupid because no SDC creatures would be left alive" threads that is rooted in a fundamental lack of understanding about how common MDC is on Rifts Earth.
If people would spend more time reading before they post, we could all save a lot of time.

RUE 185

Theoretically, anybody can learn magic; however, it is an extremely difficult process that proves impossible for most people.

most chumps, ahhem, people, are not PC's.

True.
But since PCs aren't common, and mages are only a fraction of the PCs, that shows that mages aren't very common.

(those two don't have to do with the commoness of mages, but it points out that being able to cast 11th level spells isn't something that your average PC should expect to be able to do)

nope. wrong. how difficult it is to get a spell, or buy a spell, or how rare mages are, or how guarded they are with their secrets, has absolutely nothing to do with how difficult it is for said spell caster to cast it once they know the spell

It's not about how difficult the spell is to cast; it's about how often the question should even come up.
And the answer is, "rarely."

Is it really fair to say that the magic system is broken because of situations that may well never come up in an average campaign?

And if such spells are so scarce, why should they be really easy to use?

[Failgoat]

spellcasters (or at least, most spellcasters) are not all about blowing stuff up in rifts. that is not a problem, that is a feature. it leaves the people that aren't spellcasters a reason to exist. if i had a ley line walker that does all the stuff that ley line walkers currently do, *and* could also deal damage like a glitter boy, then what exactly would be the point in bringing a glitter boy into the party? you may as well get rid of that useless buffoon, and replace them with another spellcaster who actually brings something useful to the party.

flavor. which was why i was asking for balance. i do have a gundam freak who, even if LLW were able to pimp slap gods en masse and rule the megaverse, he would still want to play a GB lol....

palladium doesn't obsess over balancing things by making things exactly the same in combat. if you want a game like that, why not try 4th edition D&D? you have your rogues that deal 3d6 rogue-y damage, your wizards that deal 3d6 wizard-y damage, your fighters that deal 3d6 fighter-y damage, etc. everyone's the same, and the classes are dull dull dull and barely worth the bother of making the choice.

in palladium, what you can do out of combat is as important, if not more important, when compared to what you can do in combat, and classes aren't even necessarily balanced based on that measurement either (for example, a demi-god with the powers of both a mind melter and a shifter is clearly more powerful than either a mind melter or a shifter, but that's not something that palladium worries about, it's up to the GM to balance parties in these games).

again, the spellcasters that are not as good at some things (in exchange for being much better at other things) is a feature of the game. if you want magic that works like D&D magic, go play D&D. if you want both magic and technology, then just grab the rules from d20 modern (and it's various supplements, such as d20 future) and go nuts. but i don't see why it would be a design goal for rifts to make spellcasters nothing more than warriors that use spells instead of guns.

i have tried 4th edition dnd. it was stupid.
i understand what your saying. this game has never concerned itself with balance.
im not sure i get this tho.
a thread was made for suggestions on how people would like to fix the magic system.
i dont understand what point it is that you come here to say its fine, if you dont like it play another game. how about respecting that some people, im not the only one, arent satisfied with it and would like to make changes? i dont want to play another game. i want rifts to be better.

seriously, i think you guys should make a "Rifts magic system is great and heres why" thread. i promise i wont litter it with rants about how messed up it is when your trying to express how much you love it.

[Failgoat]

But we do have plenty of indication about the relative commonness of things.

From the main book:

The average person is not likely to have psionics nor mega-damage weapons and armor. He is not a master of magic nor holder of great truths. He is one of the ordinary folk who live and struggle with the day to day hardships of life.

in no way, in any post about this, am i talking about the average person.

You're talking about how common mages are.
The above passage describes a world where the average person is not any kind of adventurer, much less a mage.
Which means that mages aren't very common.

And the fact that the average person is not likely to have mega-damage armor or weapons would mean that they're not likely to have magic weapons either.
Conversely, if magical items were common, then the average person could have a decent chance of having some, which would change the setting significantly.

The entire world is mostly wilderness with scattered little towns, villages, and outposts. Cities are fairly uncommon, generally speaking. The environment, regardless of the level of technology or magic, is feudal-like, with kingdoms rather than cities, states, provinces, or nations as thought of in the 20th century.
The majority of these feudal kingdoms are ruled by, or appoint, or employ, a protector of group of protectors, much like the knights of old. The protector(s) is always a powerful warrior, frequently armed with power armor or giant robot vehicles. Men of arms seem to be the norm among these champions, but they can be mages, psychic, mutants, and even monsters.

i wish you would do more of just this. offer information without getting so heady over it.
i actually appreciate it when people pass knowledge onto me that i did not know as i find it very difficult to remember all aspects of a game that i own 60+ books for. its just hard to do when you attack suggestions. but thank you anyway. so it IS more common for appointed protectors to be men at arms. but that does not really apply to the perception of how many unaffiliated magic users are roaming the world. which any gm apparently can decide for themselves.

I can come off as dismissive and arrogant at times, but in my defense, I kind of am.

On the other hand, I'm generally happy to pass on information to other people, and have a strong knowledge of the rules of the game, as well as the setting.
If you ever want to know my source for a piece of information, you generally just have to ask.

The thing is, I've been on this website for something like a decade now, and I'm getting older, with less free time to pore through the books to cite passages for people.
The above quote that you found helpful was pulled from a previous post I made, from a very similar discussion.
Things run in cycles here, and the same topics come up again, and again, and again... and even I can get weary of rehashing stuff that I've said repeatedly in the past.

RUE 185

Theoretically, anybody can learn magic; however, it is an extremely difficult process that proves impossible for most people.

most chumps, ahhem, people, are not PC's.

True.
But since PCs aren't common, and mages are only a fraction of the PCs, that shows that mages aren't very common.

(those two don't have to do with the commoness of mages, but it points out that being able to cast 11th level spells isn't something that your average PC should expect to be able to do)

nope. wrong. how difficult it is to get a spell, or buy a spell, or how rare mages are, or how guarded they are with their secrets, has absolutely nothing to do with how difficult it is for said spell caster to cast it once they know the spell

It's not about how difficult the spell is to cast; it's about how often the question should even come up.
And the answer is, "rarely."

Is it really fair to say that the magic system is broken because of situations that may well never come up in an average campaign?

And if such spells are so scarce, why should they be really easy to use?

uh no dude. it IS about how difficult it is to cast the spell. thats the issue i wanted changed as per the topic of the thread. never have i complained that the spells should be more available. that part makes perfect sense to me. my complaint is how hard it can be to cast those spells.
do i have to keep saying this?