Fixes to the Rifts magic systems

[Damian Magecraft]

I Bet with your mage I can cast it by myself.

Wow, aren't you special, you go girl. Open those dimensional rifts, throw those annihilate bombs. But for those of us that stick to the rules, its a bit harder...

Apparently I am a better mage than you.
Some one points out that they can do what you cannot so they must be cheating? (how very grade school of you.)
Maybe.... Just Maybe... someone knows a great deal more about this aspect of the game?
Oh but wait....
Then that would mean that you (gasp!) are wrong.

i wish the discussion could be more about helping and informing, and improving Rifts magic system as opposed to "im right, your wrong"
i cant stand your attitude damien, but your entitled i guess eh?
and how does your title make you so much more awesome than anyone?
to quote one of my favorite movies, "thats like being the smartest kid with down syndrome"
but hey, i guess if a little title under your avatar at a forum for a game goes to your head, your pretty easy to inflate.

33 years playing mages I would say entitles one.
My "arrogance" is well earned.
While others were whining "Mages do not do what I want them to do! Mages are broken!"
I actually studied the Classes and learned how to use them effectively.
But wait; Instead of doing that; lets just ****, *****, and Moan like spoiled children until we get our way.
Oh and while we are at it let us insult anyone who may actually be able to do what we cannot.
You may hate my "attitude" but you were willing to ask me for advise when you realized I knew of a rule you had over looked.
You might also find that I am a very nice, personable fellow when I am treated with the respect my age, my time in the hobby, and my knowledge base have earned me; instead of contempt for daring to disagree with you.

And by the way... It is Damian not damien. The name is right up there at the top of the quote and right over my avatar there is no excuse for misspelling it except laziness or disrespect.

[Failgoat]

I Bet with your mage I can cast it by myself.

Wow, aren't you special, you go girl. Open those dimensional rifts, throw those annihilate bombs. But for those of us that stick to the rules, its a bit harder...

Apparently I am a better mage than you.
Some one points out that they can do what you cannot so they must be cheating? (how very grade school of you.)
Maybe.... Just Maybe... someone knows a great deal more about this aspect of the game?
Oh but wait....
Then that would mean that you (gasp!) are wrong.

i wish the discussion could be more about helping and informing, and improving Rifts magic system as opposed to "im right, your wrong"
i cant stand your attitude damien, but your entitled i guess eh?
and how does your title make you so much more awesome than anyone?
to quote one of my favorite movies, "thats like being the smartest kid with down syndrome"
but hey, i guess if a little title under your avatar at a forum for a game goes to your head, your pretty easy to inflate.

33 years playing mages I would say entitles one.
My "arrogance" is well earned.
While others were whining "Mages do not do what I want them to do! Mages are broken!"
I actually studied the Classes and learned how to use them effectively.
But wait; Instead of doing that; lets just ****, *****, and Moan like spoiled children until we get our way.
Oh and while we are at it let us insult anyone who may actually be able to do what we cannot.
You may hate my "attitude" but you were willing to ask me for advise when you realized I knew of a rule you had over looked.
You might also find that I am a very nice, personable fellow when I am treated with the respect my age, my time in the hobby, and my knowledge base have earned me; instead of contempt for daring to disagree with you.

And by the way... It is Damian not damien. The name is right up there at the top of the quote and right over my avatar there is no excuse for misspelling it except laziness or disrespect.

hehe..thank you for demonstrating exactly what i meant by over inflated ego.
you are determined along with your cyborg friend to turn this thread into an argument. that is disrespectful enough for me not to care one bit about what you think youv earned
i dont care about your name. not one bit.
i didnt **** whine moan on and on as you suggest. i made the fatal mistake of seeing a topic and deciding to post my ideas in the spirit of the thread, only to be inundated with "its fine how it is". as to what you think you are entitled to for playing a game for 33 years, enjoy the false sense of entitlement.

[Damian Magecraft]

so in conclusion, all over inflated egos aside, i would like to ammend this one suggestion. perhaps just learning a spell doesnt mean that the mage should be able to cast it without external aid. but, I'd like high level spell casters to be able to cast the high level spells more easily with their own P.P.E. Not some 3rd lvl LLW rolling annihilate off like its butta. soooo....maybe a revamp to the amount of P.P.E. that a pure spell casting class receives from leveling?

funny how only those who say the set up is fine as is are the ones with inflated egos...
But then I guess if anyone dares to disagree with you they must be an ass eh?

really? when did i say that? i reacted to their inflated ego. never did i say if you like the system you have an ego problem.
shoveling words into others mouths seems to be a problem prevailent to most boards on the net tho. so, whatevs

Ahem...

his/her ego is rather unbecoming isnt it?

Followed by...

all over inflated egos aside

those in conjunction with other previous complaints that any who disagree with you need to go else where puts those words in your mouth not me.

[Killer Cyborg]

It's not about how difficult the spell is to cast; it's about how often the question should even come up.
And the answer is, "rarely."

Is it really fair to say that the magic system is broken because of situations that may well never come up in an average campaign?

And if such spells are so scarce, why should they be really easy to use?

uh no dude. it IS about how difficult it is to cast the spell. thats the issue i wanted changed as per the topic of the thread.

Fortunately, you have no control over the content of my posts, nor the points that I choose to make.

never have i complained that the spells should be more available.

Never have I claimed that you did.

my complaint is how hard it can be to cast those spells.
do i have to keep saying this?

I explained the relevance already:
If high-level magic is so hard to get, why should it be easy to cast?

[Failgoat]

It's not about how difficult the spell is to cast; it's about how often the question should even come up.
And the answer is, "rarely."

Is it really fair to say that the magic system is broken because of situations that may well never come up in an average campaign?

And if such spells are so scarce, why should they be really easy to use?

uh no dude. it IS about how difficult it is to cast the spell. thats the issue i wanted changed as per the topic of the thread.

Fortunately, you have no control over the content of my posts, nor the points that I choose to make.

except that you have repeatedly quoted me when posting, so you are, wether you like it or not, responding to concepts that i am presenting, and attempting to derail my suggestion into something it is not.

never have i complained that the spells should be more available.

Never have I claimed that you did.

great! stop responding like i did then

my complaint is how hard it can be to cast those spells.
do i have to keep saying this?

I explained the relevance already:
If high-level magic is so hard to get, why should it be easy to cast?

availablility and castibility is not the same thing. sorry.

[Failgoat]

so in conclusion, all over inflated egos aside, i would like to ammend this one suggestion. perhaps just learning a spell doesnt mean that the mage should be able to cast it without external aid. but, I'd like high level spell casters to be able to cast the high level spells more easily with their own P.P.E. Not some 3rd lvl LLW rolling annihilate off like its butta. soooo....maybe a revamp to the amount of P.P.E. that a pure spell casting class receives from leveling?

funny how only those who say the set up is fine as is are the ones with inflated egos...
But then I guess if anyone dares to disagree with you they must be an ass eh?

really? when did i say that? i reacted to their inflated ego. never did i say if you like the system you have an ego problem.
shoveling words into others mouths seems to be a problem prevailent to most boards on the net tho. so, whatevs

Ahem...

his/her ego is rather unbecoming isnt it?

Followed by...

damiAns over inflated egos aside

those in conjunction with other previous complaints that any who disagree with you need to go else where puts those words in your mouth not me.

fixed

[Killer Cyborg]

I actually studied the Classes and learned how to use them effectively.

So many people spend so much time wishing that Rifts was something else, instead of trying to see what it IS, and play it accordingly.
They want cheap armor repair, instead of taking the effort to get shot up less.
They want mages to be able to survive with no technology, instead of taking advantage of the fact that mages in Rifts have no restriction on their choice of weapons (and little restriction on armor).
They want their characters to be even more powerful, instead of looking at how godlike every PC already IS.

[Killer Cyborg]

It's not about how difficult the spell is to cast; it's about how often the question should even come up.
And the answer is, "rarely."

Is it really fair to say that the magic system is broken because of situations that may well never come up in an average campaign?

And if such spells are so scarce, why should they be really easy to use?

uh no dude. it IS about how difficult it is to cast the spell. thats the issue i wanted changed as per the topic of the thread.

Fortunately, you have no control over the content of my posts, nor the points that I choose to make.

except that you have repeatedly quoted me when posting, so you are, wether you like it or not, responding to concepts that i am presenting, and attempting to derail my suggestion into something it is not.

I responded to concepts that you presented by presenting my own point, which is that if high level magic is so rare, why do you have an expectation that it would be easy to use?

never have i complained that the spells should be more available.

Never have I claimed that you did.

great! stop responding like i did then

I can't stop what I never started.

I explained the relevance already:
If high-level magic is so hard to get, why should it be easy to cast?

availablility and castibility is not the same thing. sorry.

That doesn't answer the question.

[Killer Cyborg]

Also to directly reference the Glitter boy V. LLW -- We have had a LLW run into a church to share P.P.E. to cast a sanctuary spell having a whopping 400 extra P.P.E. from the people hiding from a squad of Glitterboys. The spell did not last long though it did offer enough time to allow the majority of the people to escape behind the area the was under the sanctuary spell. This worked great for us!

Excellent example!

[Damian Magecraft]

And by the way... It is Damian not damien. The name is right up there at the top of the quote and right over my avatar there is no excuse for misspelling it except laziness or disrespect.

i dont care about your name. not one bit.

so its disrespect then.
good to know where I stand then.
And before you start throwing the insults around...
you really should learn more about who you are attacking.
You Belittle my expertise in the system as if that some how makes you superior...
All it does is make you look petty and ignorant.
RPGs is one of my hobbies, as is bowling, darts, Martial Arts, and many others...
I am proud of my accomplishments in those endeavors.
Is my having gained a mastery of magic systems in RPGs any less an accomplishment than?
The fact that I have bowled a perfect game?
Taken First place at a State Darts tournament?
Or the fact that I once defeated one of the nations top ranked amateur Martial artists?
You seem to think so...

[Failgoat]

I can come off as dismissive and arrogant at times, but in my defense, I kind of am.

i like you a lot more for admitting this.

On the other hand, I'm generally happy to pass on information to other people, and have a strong knowledge of the rules of the game, as well as the setting.
If you ever want to know my source for a piece of information, you generally just have to ask.

The thing is, I've been on this website for something like a decade now, and I'm getting older, with less free time to pore through the books to cite passages for people.
The above quote that you found helpful was pulled from a previous post I made, from a very similar discussion.
Things run in cycles here, and the same topics come up again, and again, and again... and even I can get weary of rehashing stuff that I've said repeatedly in the past.

Also, I get tired of people coming in and complaining that the system/setting is broken and must be fixed when they don't even really know what the setting/system IS.

well, in my defense the only thing i wasnt aware of was the triple PPE thing. i knew about taking it from people, drawing on LL and nexus', talismans, energy sphere...so i dont think its very fair to say dont even really know what the setting/system is. but i can understand after 10 years here, or for others whov been doing it for 30+ years, why people who dont know every single little detail suddenly dont understand the setting at all.

Not that it's always their fault for not knowing; the game is so spread out and disorganized that it's difficult to impossible to keep track of every detail.

this is a constant issue in this game, unfortunately

If people would spend more time reading before they post, we could all save a lot of time.

i have to admit, i am guilty of not searching the forums enough

RUE 185

Theoretically, anybody can learn magic; however, it is an extremely difficult process that proves impossible for most people.

most chumps, ahhem, people, are not PC's.

True.
But since PCs aren't common, and mages are only a fraction of the PCs, that shows that mages aren't very common.

this is good logic that i can agree with.

[Failgoat]

And by the way... It is Damian not damien. The name is right up there at the top of the quote and right over my avatar there is no excuse for misspelling it except laziness or disrespect.

i dont care about your name. not one bit.

so its disrespect then.
good to know where I stand then.
And before you start throwing the insults around...
you really should learn more about who you are attacking.
You Belittle my expertise in the system as if that some how makes you superior...
All it does is make you look petty and ignorant.
RPGs is one of my hobbies, as is bowling, darts, Martial Arts, and many others...
I am proud of my accomplishments in those endeavors.
Is my having gained a mastery of magic systems in RPGs any less an accomplishment than?
The fact that I have bowled a perfect game?
Taken First place at a State Darts tournament?
Or the fact that I once defeated one of the nations top ranked amateur Martial artists?
You seem to think so...

dude zomg lets all bow down to the awesomeness of you. i still.......dont......care.....

[Failgoat]

And by the way... It is Damian not damien. The name is right up there at the top of the quote and right over my avatar there is no excuse for misspelling it except laziness or disrespect.

i dont care about your name. not one bit.

so its disrespect then.
good to know where I stand then.
And before you start throwing the insults around...
you really should learn more about who you are attacking.
You Belittle my expertise in the system as if that some how makes you superior...
All it does is make you look petty and ignorant.
RPGs is one of my hobbies, as is bowling, darts, Martial Arts, and many others...
I am proud of my accomplishments in those endeavors.
Is my having gained a mastery of magic systems in RPGs any less an accomplishment than?
The fact that I have bowled a perfect game?
Taken First place at a State Darts tournament?
Or the fact that I once defeated one of the nations top ranked amateur Martial artists?
You seem to think so...

dude zomg lets all bow down to the awesomeness of you. i still.......dont......care.....

edit: for the record, i never belittled your expertise. i thanked you for the information i did not know. it is another aspect of your ego problem that you percieve people who dont revolve their life around what you think and say as disrespectful to you
you seriously need to get over yourself

[Failgoat]

@cyborg
this is what i see.
i made suggestion that high level spells should be castable when a mage learns it without needing so much help to do it.
your response is that mages in general are rare so casting those spells should be rare too.

you are relating them when i only seek to isolate the castibility of spells, not the availability.
in my perception, you are indeed responding as if i want them to be more available, which i do not.

this is why i say availability and castibility is not the same thing, and you telling me that doesnt answer the question is true. because it isnt relavent to my issue with castibility, so im just not going to answer it.

thanks for at least showing a modicum of respect.

[Nightmask]

well its obvious some people think the magic system in this game is JUST FINE. great, go make a post about it. this thread is for suggestions about changing the magic system
if you think its fine, you dont need to post here and make arguments. but i guess having 6000 or 20000 posts gives you that authority.

Well some that like it are making valid points of how to make use of existing parts of the game to try and correct the inequities via creative use, but true it might be better in its own thread of 'How to get the most out of the existing Magic Rules to be an epic Magic User'.

Such astounding overconfidence there, to dismiss all such situations as nothing important, something that is a staple trope of villains (and overly-arrogant heroes ) who dismiss the hero(es ) as just an annoyance only to end up sent down in ruin because they were too arrogant and didn't take a threat as being credible that they should have. An unexpected battle with a CS Kill Squad or Atlantis Slaver Group isn't an annoyance it's a threat and minor spells aren't going to see you through to victory, the best they're going to do is give you a chance to run and hope they don't catch you and finish you off anyway.

You like repeating that 'don't use a bowling ball for swatting a fly', well the flip side of that is 'don't go trying to use a fly swatter when you need tank'. A squad of SAMAS or Glitter Boys aren't insects and you don't take them out with low level spells and one is overly confident and foolish to insist that those low level spells are more than they really are. It just reminds me of various Forgotten Realms stories where the Red Wizards are always going after the Simbul so supremely confident in their magic only to fall singly and in groups because they put too much faith in their spells and rated them as more than they truly were.

his/her ego is rather unbecoming isnt it?

Well it's way too overconfident with regards to magic and how certain he is he can do everything with some low-level spells and always be prepared for everything. Sorry but while they write Batman up like that anymore realistically your character isn't always going to be PPE super-charged and always have advance warning of everything so it can always prepare everything it needs to deal with a threat.

That depends on how many of those the GM would allow the PC to make use of at one time, loading oneself down with Talismans would be quite problematic when you consider everything else you also need to have handy. Unless they've changed the spell it only stores fresh 50 PPE (and 30 PPE when recharged) so while you could cast a single Annihilate potentially with a dozen fresh Talismans that's all you'd pull off. You'd be better off teaming with a Wu Shih, their Create Vajra spell can create an object that potentially can story hundreds of PPE at a time.

not to mention flavor. not everyone wants to have 15 talismans on them. i prefer a mix of magic items with a variety of effects. As well, iv never played with a gm that didnt use some kind of conflicting magic rule,i.e. youv got 8 magic items on that one part of your body no they dont all work...a lot of it is flavor and playstyle and preference. why they feel so obligated to shoot down others playstyles i donno.

Human nature has a tendency especially in the protection of the Internet for people to adopt a 'only I know the right way and any other way is wrong and must be repeatedly told that until they come around to playing my way' mindset. Plus while we're all equals here with no one being a GM or player to anyone else (outside of a few exceptions) people tend to treat everything that's posted as if you're a player submitting for their game so if they don't like what you're suggesting they'll take it as somehow trying to 'get one over' on them and react accordingly. So while you're just trying to discuss something they're trying to hammer how 'right' they are onto you until you either hammer back, ignore them, or the thread gets locked (and sometimes that won't stop them as they'll just try and open another).

[Killer Cyborg]

@cyborg
this is what i see.
i made suggestion that high level spells should be castable when a mage learns it without needing so much help to do it.

It seemed more that that your suggestion wasn't "without needing so much help" as "without needing help."
But upon rereading your initial post, your main objection was to there being a "crapload" of high level spells that you couldn't cast by yourself, which isn't the same thing.

your response is that mages in general are rare so casting those spells should be rare too.

Kind of.
Mages are rare.
High level spells are really rare.
Combined, I don't see the need for a mage to be able to pop off just any high-level spell he wants to, without any prep or aid.
Casting a high-level spell should be an event, even for a high-level mage.

thanks for at least showing a modicum of respect.

I'm not perfect at it, but I try to respond to people the way they respond to me.
If somebody shows me some respect, I extend the same courtesy in return.
(Same goes with disrespect.)

[Killer Cyborg]

well its obvious some people think the magic system in this game is JUST FINE. great, go make a post about it. this thread is for suggestions about changing the magic system
if you think its fine, you dont need to post here and make arguments. but i guess having 6000 or 20000 posts gives you that authority.

Well some that like it are making valid points of how to make use of existing parts of the game to try and correct the inequities via creative use, but true it might be better in its own thread of 'How to get the most out of the existing Magic Rules to be an epic Magic User'.

I see it more like this:
Some people are saying, "Hey, this hammer is broken! How can we fix it?"
Other people are saying, "That's a multi-tool you're holding."

...realistically your character isn't always going to be PPE super-charged and always have advance warning of everything so it can always prepare everything it needs to deal with a threat.

True.
What about it?
Do you expect your characters to always be able to readily handle every situation they run into, even when they're caught off-guard and unprepared?

That depends on how many of those the GM would allow the PC to make use of at one time, loading oneself down with Talismans would be quite problematic when you consider everything else you also need to have handy. Unless they've changed the spell it only stores fresh 50 PPE (and 30 PPE when recharged) so while you could cast a single Annihilate potentially with a dozen fresh Talismans that's all you'd pull off. You'd be better off teaming with a Wu Shih, their Create Vajra spell can create an object that potentially can story hundreds of PPE at a time.

not to mention flavor. not everyone wants to have 15 talismans on them. i prefer a mix of magic items with a variety of effects.

I've used the "multiple talismans" trick, but I don't like it. It seems like a cheap loophole instead of how the game was meant to be played.
I don't think I've ever seen an NPC with a crapload of talismans, just to hold PPE, so I don't think that's how things are intended to be played.

If you want portable PPE storage for your mage, a TW item might well work better.

Personally, I go other routes as far as casting powerful spells:
-Talismans can be used to store spells up to level 8.
-Scrolls can hold spells as high as your character's level.
-Sharing PPE with other mages and/or other characters with high PPE (especially those that have little use for it on their own).
-TW devices can be created to cast high-level spells, in one attack, and they can store the PPE to do it.
-Blood sacrifice (not always an option, of course)
-Non-TW devices that can cast spells and/or store PPE
-Ley Lines and Nexuses.

But for the most part, I wouldn't cast powerful spells.
I grew up on Gandalf as the archetype for wizards, and he used his sword, fireworks, or his brains to deal with most situations, only whipping out the major special effects for rare occasions.
And these occasions tended to be so rare that I had plenty of prep time.

The biggest example of which:

The party had snuck into the Duluth Hive through the tunnels detailed in the Xiticix and the Green Death adventure, and we realized that the Queen's Chamber was just on the other side of a sealed-off doorway.
One of the party members, a HU character with APS: Fire, proposed that this would be a unique opportunity to deal a heavy blow to the xiticix by killing off the Queen.
He said that he could do this by going Nova, but we'd all die.
We made some brief, whispered plans, then carried them out.

The HU guy started powering up for his Nova.
This triggered the Queen's 6th Sense (iirc), and the bugs figured out that there was somebody behind the wall, and started tearing it down.
Everybody assumed defensive positions in order to protect the Fire Hero, except for my character (Killer Cyborg), who started absorbing PPE from the other characters, and casting Impervious to Fire on everybody.
The bugs broke through the walls, and the party fought them off long enough for me to absorb some PPE from dead bugs.
The bugs were forced back to regroup.
I cast Impenetrable Wall of Force.
The hero detonated for 10,000 MDC to the immediate area.
The party Burster super-fueled the flame for 10x the damage and radius.
I absorbed the PPE from the many, many dead bugs, and cast Teleport: Superior to bring us to a safe spot, hundreds of miles away, including the Fire Hero (who lived, barely, though he lost his powers).
And there was much rejoicing.

Would it have drastically changed things if I had 1200 or so PPE in my personal reserve?
Well, we wouldn't have had to fight the bugs at all.
The other members of my team wouldn't have been able to contribute by adding their PPE to the mix.
Really, the Fire Hero and I could have done it all by ourselves, without any need for the rest of the party*, and without any risk (other than the guy himself detonating; but I'd have been fine).
And that just doesn't seem as interesting or fun as the way things played out with the system the way it was.

A good chunk of role-playing is the fantasy of doing cool things, but a chunk that's just as large or larger is the challenge of having obstacles put in your way.
The obstacles in the way of casting high-level spells make the game more interesting to me, they make it better.
Without obstacles, role-playing turns into just getting off on your own fantasies of how awesome you'd like to be. There's no risk.

And I get that you're not arguing that there should be NO risk; I'm just pointing out how the specific obstacles that you guys object to in his case actually enhance the gaming experience for me and a lot other people.
There's nothing really wrong with playing things a different way, but the game was designed more to be played this way, and when people come in complaining that the game is broken because it was designed for a different style of play, a style that many people actively enjoy, that tends to rub me the wrong way, and to come off as generally short-sighted and/or self-centered.

Just to provide insight into where I (and I believe Damian and others) are coming from with this sort of thing.

*the burster's boost was awesome, but it wasn't necessary to take out the Queen and most of the central hive

[Killer Cyborg]

D&D4e's a fine system, you're being purposefully ignorant to badmouth it.

4.0 is a solid game, but not so great for role-playing.
It feels more like you're picking members for a sports team than an adventuring party, they always go for ease of play over simulation (which often flushes suspension of disbelief right down the toilet), and they focus way, way too much on balancing everything.

It's not that there's no difference between a Fighter with two weapons and a Ranger with two weapons, but that there's too little difference between a mage casting magic missile and a rogue chucking daggers.
Too often the stats of a given ability/attack are essentially the same, only the flavor text is different.

Mechanically, it's a solid system, but it has no soul.
Which is a shame, because 3.x managed to be solid AND have a soul.

[Nightmask]

well its obvious some people think the magic system in this game is JUST FINE. great, go make a post about it. this thread is for suggestions about changing the magic system
if you think its fine, you dont need to post here and make arguments. but i guess having 6000 or 20000 posts gives you that authority.

Well some that like it are making valid points of how to make use of existing parts of the game to try and correct the inequities via creative use, but true it might be better in its own thread of 'How to get the most out of the existing Magic Rules to be an epic Magic User'.

I see it more like this:
Some people are saying, "Hey, this hammer is broken! How can we fix it?"
Other people are saying, "That's a multi-tool you're holding."

...realistically your character isn't always going to be PPE super-charged and always have advance warning of everything so it can always prepare everything it needs to deal with a threat.

True.
What about it?
Do you expect your characters to always be able to readily handle every situation they run into, even when they're caught off-guard and unprepared?

Except the point being made seemed fairly evident that his position was that you can always be super-charged and always prepared and ambushes and unexpected attacks never occur and mages can always be ready with all the PPE and spells prepared that they need to win the day. Which simply isn't so. His GM may be always giving him that option but that's not the standard.

That depends on how many of those the GM would allow the PC to make use of at one time, loading oneself down with Talismans would be quite problematic when you consider everything else you also need to have handy. Unless they've changed the spell it only stores fresh 50 PPE (and 30 PPE when recharged) so while you could cast a single Annihilate potentially with a dozen fresh Talismans that's all you'd pull off. You'd be better off teaming with a Wu Shih, their Create Vajra spell can create an object that potentially can story hundreds of PPE at a time.

not to mention flavor. not everyone wants to have 15 talismans on them. i prefer a mix of magic items with a variety of effects.

I've used the "multiple talismans" trick, but I don't like it. It seems like a cheap loophole instead of how the game was meant to be played.
I don't think I've ever seen an NPC with a crapload of talismans, just to hold PPE, so I don't think that's how things are intended to be played.

If you want portable PPE storage for your mage, a TW item might well work better.

Except the TW item isn't really seen as a pure magic item, it's a mixing of technology with magic which isn't generally seen as 'real' magic. Some would like their magic items including their PPE storage being from purely magical sources sans technology.

And I get that you're not arguing that there should be NO risk; I'm just pointing out how the specific obstacles that you guys object to in his case actually enhance the gaming experience for me and a lot other people.
There's nothing really wrong with playing things a different way, but the game was designed more to be played this way, and when people come in complaining that the game is broken because it was designed for a different style of play, a style that many people actively enjoy, that tends to rub me the wrong way, and to come off as generally short-sighted and/or self-centered.

Just to provide insight into where I (and I believe Damian and others) are coming from with this sort of thing.

*the burster's boost was awesome, but it wasn't necessary to take out the Queen and most of the central hive

Well just because you think the game's designed for a particular style of play doesn't necessarily mean that it is, and just because people look for ways to make it more enjoyable for themselves shouldn't be rubbing you the wrong way let alone rating them as short-sighted and self-centered. You're after all displaying your own self-centeredness insisting it should be the way you like it and getting irritated that they want to adjust it to play more their way. As long as someone's not demanding you play it their way and just looking for ways to make play better for them you've really no reason to get annoyed or dismiss their points because they disagree with you. Better to simply go 'Not the way I roll but hey enjoy it how you want' than go 'you should rolling my way and I won't hear of any others'.

[Damian Magecraft]

well its obvious some people think the magic system in this game is JUST FINE. great, go make a post about it. this thread is for suggestions about changing the magic system
if you think its fine, you dont need to post here and make arguments. but i guess having 6000 or 20000 posts gives you that authority.

Well some that like it are making valid points of how to make use of existing parts of the game to try and correct the inequities via creative use, but true it might be better in its own thread of 'How to get the most out of the existing Magic Rules to be an epic Magic User'.

I see it more like this:
Some people are saying, "Hey, this hammer is broken! How can we fix it?"
Other people are saying, "That's a multi-tool you're holding."

Well Said! KC.

...realistically your character isn't always going to be PPE super-charged and always have advance warning of everything so it can always prepare everything it needs to deal with a threat.

True.
What about it?
Do you expect your characters to always be able to readily handle every situation they run into, even when they're caught off-guard and unprepared?

Except the point being made seemed fairly evident that his position was that you can always be super-charged and always prepared and ambushes and unexpected attacks never occur and mages can always be ready with all the PPE and spells prepared that they need to win the day. Which simply isn't so. His GM may be always giving him that option but that's not the standard.

actually what I claimed is that if you have the time to prep (which in world with causality happens more often than not) you can and should be supercharged. Not that you will always be that way... (or were the words "as long as you choose the time and place for battle" too complicated a concept for you?)

That depends on how many of those the GM would allow the PC to make use of at one time, loading oneself down with Talismans would be quite problematic when you consider everything else you also need to have handy. Unless they've changed the spell it only stores fresh 50 PPE (and 30 PPE when recharged) so while you could cast a single Annihilate potentially with a dozen fresh Talismans that's all you'd pull off. You'd be better off teaming with a Wu Shih, their Create Vajra spell can create an object that potentially can story hundreds of PPE at a time.

not to mention flavor. not everyone wants to have 15 talismans on them. i prefer a mix of magic items with a variety of effects.

I've used the "multiple talismans" trick, but I don't like it. It seems like a cheap loophole instead of how the game was meant to be played.
I don't think I've ever seen an NPC with a crapload of talismans, just to hold PPE, so I don't think that's how things are intended to be played.

If you want portable PPE storage for your mage, a TW item might well work better.

Except the TW item isn't really seen as a pure magic item, it's a mixing of technology with magic which isn't generally seen as 'real' magic. Some would like their magic items including their PPE storage being from purely magical sources sans technology.

And I get that you're not arguing that there should be NO risk; I'm just pointing out how the specific obstacles that you guys object to in his case actually enhance the gaming experience for me and a lot other people.
There's nothing really wrong with playing things a different way, but the game was designed more to be played this way, and when people come in complaining that the game is broken because it was designed for a different style of play, a style that many people actively enjoy, that tends to rub me the wrong way, and to come off as generally short-sighted and/or self-centered.

Just to provide insight into where I (and I believe Damian and others) are coming from with this sort of thing.

*the burster's boost was awesome, but it wasn't necessary to take out the Queen and most of the central hive

Well just because you think the game's designed for a particular style of play doesn't necessarily mean that it is, doesnt mean it isnt either. And the rules seem to support KC's and My view of this as a TEAM effort game.and just because people look for ways to make it more enjoyable for themselves shouldn't be rubbing you the wrong way let alone rating them as short-sighted and self-centered. You're after all displaying your own self-centeredness insisting it should be the way you like it and getting irritated that they want to adjust it to play more their way. As long as someone's not demanding you play it their way and just looking for ways to make play better for them you've really no reason to get annoyed or dismiss their points because they disagree with you.The Problem here though is most of the "mage is broken" crowd are insisting we play it their way by demanding the game be altered to their satisfaction. Better to simply go 'Not the way I roll but hey enjoy it how you want' than go 'you should rolling my way and I won't hear of any others'.

We would do that if others did not insist their way is the only right way and we are fools for not seeing such an obvious fact and then getting all bent out of shape when shown that perhaps their way is not the only way to play.

[Damian Magecraft]

And by the way... It is Damian not damien. The name is right up there at the top of the quote and right over my avatar there is no excuse for misspelling it except laziness or disrespect.

i dont care about your name. not one bit.

so its disrespect then.
good to know where I stand then.
And before you start throwing the insults around...
you really should learn more about who you are attacking.
You Belittle my expertise in the system as if that some how makes you superior...
All it does is make you look petty and ignorant.
RPGs is one of my hobbies, as is bowling, darts, Martial Arts, and many others...
I am proud of my accomplishments in those endeavors.
Is my having gained a mastery of magic systems in RPGs any less an accomplishment than?
The fact that I have bowled a perfect game?
Taken First place at a State Darts tournament?
Or the fact that I once defeated one of the nations top ranked amateur Martial artists?
You seem to think so...

dude zomg lets all bow down to the awesomeness of you. i still.......dont......care.....

edit: for the record, i never belittled your expertise. i thanked you for the information i did not know. it is another aspect of your ego problem that you percieve people who dont revolve their life around what you think and say as disrespectful to you
you seriously need to get over yourself

Ahem...

to quote one of my favorite movies, "thats like being the smartest kid with down syndrome"
but hey, i guess if a little title under your avatar at a forum for a game goes to your head, your pretty easy to inflate.

Just for the record.
If you are going to deny something make sure there is no evidence to the contrary first.

[Damian Magecraft]

Ok i heard the complaints about it ,so how would you fix it

"Fix" implies it is broken.

Not fixes but improvements on the current system...
Lose the mage vs armor thing...(it was cliche and unasked for when it was introduced)
Scale the length of time a mage can hold his supercharge (A simple 1 minute per PE point times caster level would be enough).
scale back on the number of Rune weapons
Scale back on the number of TW items
More examples of "regular" magic items (not every magic item needs to be disguised as tech).
Better/different improvement rate for Spell strengths.

An increase in base PPE would be nice but not really needed.
More spells... there can never be enough spells.
More anti-tech spells would be nice but again not required.
A slight improvement of range would also be nice but not required.

[Nightmask]

Ok i heard the complaints about it ,so how would you fix it

"Fix" implies it is broken.

For which some do consider it broken, even though it works many things work with broken parts but you don't get the best service from them because of what's broken. A broken anti-lock brake module in your car doesn't make the car undriveable but it does deny you the anti-lock brake feature.

Not fixes but improvements on the current system...
Lose the mage vs armor thing...(it was cliche and unasked for when it was introduced)
Scale the length of time a mage can hold his supercharge (A simple 1 minute per PE point times caster level would be enough).
scale back on the number of Rune weapons
Scale back on the number of TW items
More examples of "regular" magic items (not every magic item needs to be disguised as tech).
Better/different improvement rate for Spell strengths.

An increase in base PPE would be nice but not really needed.
More spells... there can never be enough spells.
More anti-tech spells would be nice but again not required.
A slight improvement of range would also be nice but not required.

Some really odd suggestions there, since for one Rune Weapons aren't that common to be needing to scale back and unlike Palladium Fantasy Rune Magic isn't a forgotten magic when it comes to the Rifts setting. More means of making regular magic items would be reasonable, plenty of tech sorts around making tech no where near enough comparable effort on the part of the magic community or option to do so.

Really wondering why you think the ranges don't need work when high-tech weapons generally put the range of magical spells to shame. The best spells in the world are worthless if your opponent can hit you with his weapons before you can hit him with yours. Basic fact of conflict, if your opponent can hit you but you can't hit him you aren't going to fair well at all.

[Damian Magecraft]

Ok i heard the complaints about it ,so how would you fix it

"Fix" implies it is broken.

For which some do consider it broken, even though it works many things work with broken parts but you don't get the best service from them because of what's broken. A broken anti-lock brake module in your car doesn't make the car undriveable but it does deny you the anti-lock brake feature.

Poor analogy. It is not that the (now standard feature) extra is broken it was never installed. Is a car with no Extras a broken car? no.
Hense my opinion that the system is not broken. Would it be better with a few extras? sure would. But will it function as it is meant to with out them? yes if one takes the time to learn. (something many these days do not seem to want to do...)

Not fixes but improvements on the current system...
Lose the mage vs armor thing...(it was cliche and unasked for when it was introduced)
Scale the length of time a mage can hold his supercharge (A simple 1 minute per PE point times caster level would be enough).
scale back on the number of Rune weapons
Scale back on the number of TW items
More examples of "regular" magic items (not every magic item needs to be disguised as tech).
Better/different improvement rate for Spell strengths.

An increase in base PPE would be nice but not really needed.
More spells... there can never be enough spells.
More anti-tech spells would be nice but again not required.
A slight improvement of range would also be nice but not required.

Some really odd suggestions there, since for one Rune Weapons aren't that common to be needing to scale back and unlike Palladium Fantasy Rune Magic isn't a forgotten magic when it comes to the Rifts setting. More means of making regular magic items would be reasonable, plenty of tech sorts around making tech no where near enough comparable effort on the part of the magic community or option to do so.

Rune Blades were there for awhile presented in practically every book published (thats excessive).
A non tech based Enchanter would be a nice addition the system. just as long as mass production of Magic does not occur. (that should remain the bailiwick of tech).

Really wondering why you think the ranges don't need work when high-tech weapons generally put the range of magical spells to shame. The best spells in the world are worthless if your opponent can hit you with his weapons before you can hit him with yours. Basic fact of conflict, if your opponent can hit you but you can't hit him you aren't going to fair well at all.

It boils down to different approaches to how a mage works...
A properly executed plan eliminates the range issue.
It is extremely rare in the games I play in for range to be an issue or unplanned battles to occur.

[Nightmask]

Ok i heard the complaints about it ,so how would you fix it

"Fix" implies it is broken.

For which some do consider it broken, even though it works many things work with broken parts but you don't get the best service from them because of what's broken. A broken anti-lock brake module in your car doesn't make the car undriveable but it does deny you the anti-lock brake feature.

Poor analogy. It is not that the (now standard feature) extra is broken it was never installed. Is a car with no Extras a broken car? no.
Hense my opinion that the system is not broken. Would it be better with a few extras? sure would. But will it function as it is meant to with out them? yes if one takes the time to learn. (something many these days do not seem to want to do...)

Not so poor, just because you feel the feature to be superfluous doesn't mean others consider it to be. While you could drive a car there were people who felt it was broken because it lacked certain features so worked to implement those features into cars. So to some don't find that minimal feature car that they're seeing the Palladium Magic System as being anything but broken and in need of fixing.

Not fixes but improvements on the current system...
Lose the mage vs armor thing...(it was cliche and unasked for when it was introduced)
Scale the length of time a mage can hold his supercharge (A simple 1 minute per PE point times caster level would be enough).
scale back on the number of Rune weapons
Scale back on the number of TW items
More examples of "regular" magic items (not every magic item needs to be disguised as tech).
Better/different improvement rate for Spell strengths.

An increase in base PPE would be nice but not really needed.
More spells... there can never be enough spells.
More anti-tech spells would be nice but again not required.
A slight improvement of range would also be nice but not required.

Some really odd suggestions there, since for one Rune Weapons aren't that common to be needing to scale back and unlike Palladium Fantasy Rune Magic isn't a forgotten magic when it comes to the Rifts setting. More means of making regular magic items would be reasonable, plenty of tech sorts around making tech no where near enough comparable effort on the part of the magic community or option to do so.

Rune Blades were there for awhile presented in practically every book published (thats excessive).
A non tech based Enchanter would be a nice addition the system. just as long as mass production of Magic does not occur. (that should remain the bailiwick of tech).[/quote]

And why exactly should it remain the nature of tech to be readily produced but not magic? Particularly when you're dealing with a high magic world like Rifts Earth. Crafting magic items requires large quantities of PPE in Palladium and Rifts Earth has the richest availability of PPE around shy of a couple of worlds so violently subjected to Rifts and Ley Line Storms only non-corporeal or god level entities could survive any length of time.

Really wondering why you think the ranges don't need work when high-tech weapons generally put the range of magical spells to shame. The best spells in the world are worthless if your opponent can hit you with his weapons before you can hit him with yours. Basic fact of conflict, if your opponent can hit you but you can't hit him you aren't going to fair well at all.

It boils down to different approaches to how a mage works...
A properly executed plan eliminates the range issue.
It is extremely rare in the games I play in for range to be an issue or unplanned battles to occur.

Now see that's a feature of your game that you treat as something to be expected by everyone, as I pointed out earlier just because your GM makes it easy for you to plan for everything and never feel those limitations doesn't mean that they aren't there or that it's how everyone plays. That isn't something that's to be expected and it's far more common in games to be ambushed or otherwise deal with unplanned battles all the time. You're not dealing with the adverse conditions that are being complained about because your GM isn't subjecting you to them, you're having a much easier time of it than most are.

[Damian Magecraft]

For which some do consider it broken, even though it works many things work with broken parts but you don't get the best service from them because of what's broken. A broken anti-lock brake module in your car doesn't make the car undriveable but it does deny you the anti-lock brake feature.

Poor analogy. It is not that the (now standard feature) extra is broken it was never installed. Is a car with no Extras a broken car? no.
Hense my opinion that the system is not broken. Would it be better with a few extras? sure would. But will it function as it is meant to with out them? yes if one takes the time to learn. (something many these days do not seem to want to do...)

Not so poor, just because you feel the feature to be superfluous doesn't mean others consider it to be. While you could drive a car there were people who felt it was broken because it lacked certain features so worked to implement those features into cars. So to some don't find that minimal feature car that they're seeing the Palladium Magic System as being anything but broken and in need of fixing.

until the 90s ABS was an option not a standard... cars without ABS are perfectly serviceable and far from broken. same for the system.

Not fixes but improvements on the current system...
Lose the mage vs armor thing...(it was cliche and unasked for when it was introduced)
Scale the length of time a mage can hold his supercharge (A simple 1 minute per PE point times caster level would be enough).
scale back on the number of Rune weapons
Scale back on the number of TW items
More examples of "regular" magic items (not every magic item needs to be disguised as tech).
Better/different improvement rate for Spell strengths.

An increase in base PPE would be nice but not really needed.
More spells... there can never be enough spells.
More anti-tech spells would be nice but again not required.
A slight improvement of range would also be nice but not required.

Some really odd suggestions there, since for one Rune Weapons aren't that common to be needing to scale back and unlike Palladium Fantasy Rune Magic isn't a forgotten magic when it comes to the Rifts setting. More means of making regular magic items would be reasonable, plenty of tech sorts around making tech no where near enough comparable effort on the part of the magic community or option to do so.

Rune Blades were there for awhile presented in practically every book published (thats excessive).
A non tech based Enchanter would be a nice addition the system. just as long as mass production of Magic does not occur. (that should remain the bailiwick of tech).

And why exactly should it remain the nature of tech to be readily produced but not magic? Particularly when you're dealing with a high magic world like Rifts Earth. Crafting magic items requires large quantities of PPE in Palladium and Rifts Earth has the richest availability of PPE around shy of a couple of worlds so violently subjected to Rifts and Ley Line Storms only non-corporeal or god level entities could survive any length of time.

Because for one that is one of techs strong points. I am all for ithe improvement of magic but why must it be as common place as tech? especially when mages are not that common place? If there is one over bearing thing in other systems I dislike more than any other its the Magic Mart mentality. "Oh I want XYZ Item for my character... no problem it only costs ABC we can just get it at the corner store". This must be avoided but will not be if it is capable of being mass produced. (and how special is the rod of resurrection going be if you can just get one any time?)

Really wondering why you think the ranges don't need work when high-tech weapons generally put the range of magical spells to shame. The best spells in the world are worthless if your opponent can hit you with his weapons before you can hit him with yours. Basic fact of conflict, if your opponent can hit you but you can't hit him you aren't going to fair well at all.

It boils down to different approaches to how a mage works...
A properly executed plan eliminates the range issue.
It is extremely rare in the games I play in for range to be an issue or unplanned battles to occur.

Now see that's a feature of your game that you treat as something to be expected by everyone, as I pointed out earlier just because your GM makes it easy for you to plan for everything and never feel those limitations doesn't mean that they aren't there or that it's how everyone plays. That isn't something that's to be expected and it's far more common in games to be ambushed or otherwise deal with unplanned battles all the time. You're not dealing with the adverse conditions that are being complained about because your GM isn't subjecting you to them, you're having a much easier time of it than most are.

and it is feature you assume is wrong. as evidenced by your comment of "how much easier" my GM is on me. (weather you intended it or not that comment dripped with scorn and contempt.) Just because we are able to plan in advance does not mean we have it any easier or harder than you; combat is often more deadly because of it. This is game based on team work. That means planning and playing to each others strengths and down playing the weaknesses. Ambushes occur just as frequently in my games as yours (but I bet my groups get to be the ambushers more often than yours). If you find you are experiencing the "sudden" combat too often and are hampered by it perhaps you should address those concerns to your GM rather than the game designer? I am sorry if this sound rude or arrogant but if you are having difficulty with mages in combat perhaps mages are not the best class for your groups play style? In a world where causality exists the frequency of unplanned combat should be low. Or do you in real life find yourself in unexpected situations with no warning signs?

[Nightmask]

And why exactly should it remain the nature of tech to be readily produced but not magic? Particularly when you're dealing with a high magic world like Rifts Earth. Crafting magic items requires large quantities of PPE in Palladium and Rifts Earth has the richest availability of PPE around shy of a couple of worlds so violently subjected to Rifts and Ley Line Storms only non-corporeal or god level entities could survive any length of time.

Because for one that is one of techs strong points. I am all for ithe improvement of magic but why must it be as common place as tech? especially when mages are not that common place? If there is one over bearing thing in other systems I dislike more than any other its the Magic Mart mentality. "Oh I want XYZ Item for my character... no problem it only costs ABC we can just get it at the corner store". This must be avoided but will not be if it is capable of being mass produced. (and how special is the rod of resurrection going be if you can just get one any time?)

Engineers aren't all that common-place either and yet technology is all over the place, and the only thing that holds mages back in the Palladium system from crafting magic items easily is the lack of PPE to power the spells that create them. Rifts Earth however is not lacking in such energies, they flow in boundless rivers across the planet and spells exist to bankroll PPE into the thousands enough to fuel even highly expensive spells for magic item construction. Rifts Earth is the mage's dream given form, with access to the magical energies that the scarcity of which has always kept them from achieving great things.

Now see that's a feature of your game that you treat as something to be expected by everyone, as I pointed out earlier just because your GM makes it easy for you to plan for everything and never feel those limitations doesn't mean that they aren't there or that it's how everyone plays. That isn't something that's to be expected and it's far more common in games to be ambushed or otherwise deal with unplanned battles all the time. You're not dealing with the adverse conditions that are being complained about because your GM isn't subjecting you to them, you're having a much easier time of it than most are.

and it is feature you assume is wrong. as evidenced by your comment of "how much easier" my GM is on me. (weather you intended it or not that comment dripped with scorn and contempt.) Just because we are able to plan in advance does not mean we have it any easier or harder than you; combat is often more deadly because of it. This is game based on team work. That means planning and playing to each others strengths and down playing the weaknesses. Ambushes occur just as frequently in my games as yours (but I bet my groups get to be the ambushers more often than yours). If you find you are experiencing the "sudden" combat too often and are hampered by it perhaps you should address those concerns to your GM rather than the game designer? I am sorry if this sound rude or arrogant but if you are having difficulty with mages in combat perhaps mages are not the best class for your groups play style? In a world where causality exists the frequency of unplanned combat should be low. Or do you in real life find yourself in unexpected situations with no warning signs?

Reading way too much into it and being way too sensitive if you felt that reply had any scorn or contempt in it rather than a neutral commentary on what you've stated. You speak as if the opportunity to plan for things is a given rather than a rarity or exception, with advance warning to get all your ducks in a row rather than ever have to deal with being caught flat-footed and have to react without any warning beyond that first shot that rings out. You are having it easier compared to groups that don't get that luxury of the GM informing you of something ahead of time so you can plan for it and you're basing your observations here around your experiences and not hearing what else is being said.

'You should talk to your GM so he gives you time to plan like mine does' is in the category of 'your GM should be running things like mine does', it's ignoring the issues brought up and trying to shift it from the problems brought up to blame it on the GM for playing things more realistically. Because just about any soldier you talk to is going to tell you that in RL you rarely get warning signs when things are going to go wrong until they actually do go wrong. Or look at all the vehicle recalls because those vehicle problems gave no warning signs until people were ought there dying from the system failures that gave no warning about until it was too late.

[Damian Magecraft]

No talking to the GM is not ignoring the issue it is addressing it.
If you are playing in a points of light world you are not really playing in a dynamic world.
I have said it before CAUSALITY: Cause and effect if they exist in the game world then there is no reason you cannot plan.
do you just react to your surrounding or do you actively try to influence events? Makes all the difference in the world.

It like when doing a dungeon crawl...
Do the monsters wait patiently until you open the door to the room they are hiding in or do they notice the noise of battle coming from down the hall and go to investigate? one has Causality the other is points of light. Which are you playing? Cause form where I sit mages in palladium are clearly designed for one but not the other.


Funny I was in the military...
We had all sorts of warning when the fit was going to hit the shan...
and the recalls? you really believe the hype from the manufactures? if someone had not died they would have continued to ignore the problems they were fully aware of prior to the death of innocents.

[Nightmask]

No talking to the GM is not ignoring the issue it is addressing it.
If you are playing in a points of light world you are not really playing in a dynamic world.
I have said it before CAUSALITY: Cause and effect if they exist in the game world then there is no reason you cannot plan.
do you just react to your surrounding or do you actively try to influence events? Makes all the difference in the world.

It like when doing a dungeon crawl...
Do the monsters wait patiently until you open the door to the room they are hiding in or do they notice the noise of battle coming from down the hall and go to investigate? one has Causality the other is points of light. Which are you playing? Cause form where I sit mages in palladium are clearly designed for one but not the other.


Funny I was in the military...
We had all sorts of warning when the fit was going to hit the shan...
and the recalls? you really believe the hype from the manufactures? if someone had not died they would have continued to ignore the problems they were fully aware of prior to the death of innocents.

I've been in the industry I know quite well how they can ignore a problem until the deaths pile up, and I've seen military officials do the same with gear for the troops, so the last thing I do is buy the hype.

In any case this is getting off-track as you're debating how your group plays and feel that's how everyone else's group ought to be playing so trying to tell them what problems they have because you don't have them they shouldn't either. Well they do have the problems and are looking for ways to fix the problems for which 'your GM should be making sure you always know something's coming so you can plan for it' isn't a solution.

[Damian Magecraft]

No talking to the GM is not ignoring the issue it is addressing it.
If you are playing in a points of light world you are not really playing in a dynamic world.
I have said it before CAUSALITY: Cause and effect if they exist in the game world then there is no reason you cannot plan.
do you just react to your surrounding or do you actively try to influence events? Makes all the difference in the world.

It like when doing a dungeon crawl...
Do the monsters wait patiently until you open the door to the room they are hiding in or do they notice the noise of battle coming from down the hall and go to investigate? one has Causality the other is points of light. Which are you playing? Cause form where I sit mages in palladium are clearly designed for one but not the other.


Funny I was in the military...
We had all sorts of warning when the fit was going to hit the shan...
and the recalls? you really believe the hype from the manufactures? if someone had not died they would have continued to ignore the problems they were fully aware of prior to the death of innocents.

I've been in the industry I know quite well how they can ignore a problem until the deaths pile up, and I've seen military officials do the same with gear for the troops, so the last thing I do is buy the hype.

In any case this is getting off-track as you're debating how your group plays and feel that's how everyone else's group ought to be playing so trying to tell them what problems they have because you don't have them they shouldn't either. Well they do have the problems and are looking for ways to fix the problems for which 'your GM should be making sure you always know something's coming so you can plan for it' isn't a solution.

and you casually dismissing my style of play as being wrong. Here is a hint for you just cause "everyone" does it that way does not mean it is the right way.
Common or not its pretty obvious that mages were designed to be played as thinkers and planers not knee jerk reactionists. So trying to force that square peg into the round hole aint gonna work... (you just end up damaging the both the peg and the frame of the hole.)

[Nightmask]

I've been in the industry I know quite well how they can ignore a problem until the deaths pile up, and I've seen military officials do the same with gear for the troops, so the last thing I do is buy the hype.

In any case this is getting off-track as you're debating how your group plays and feel that's how everyone else's group ought to be playing so trying to tell them what problems they have because you don't have them they shouldn't either. Well they do have the problems and are looking for ways to fix the problems for which 'your GM should be making sure you always know something's coming so you can plan for it' isn't a solution.

and you casually dismissing my style of play as being wrong. Here is a hint for you just cause "everyone" does it that way does not mean it is the right way.
Common or not its pretty obvious that mages were designed to be played as thinkers and planers not knee jerk reactionists. So trying to force that square peg into the round hole aint gonna work... (you just end up damaging the both the peg and the frame of the hole.)

I should point out the one who was dismissing how others play as being wrong was you, such as telling someone he wasn't playing his mage right and you could play it better. Just as you were the one telling them that they should be playing your way because they're supposed to plan things which is how you think mages should be played. So much as you think your way is the 'right' way when it comes to mages it's not, it's just how you play them and plenty of others have different ways of playing them in different games where the GM don't make it so they're never surprised and always able to plan for battles.

As far as square pegs and round holes go, you can easily fit a square peg into a round hole, you just have to find the round hole it'll fit. One's failing to think of all options when they're letting themselves be limited to the idea that only round pegs go into round holes, when shape isn't the limiter it is the size.

[Killer Cyborg]

well its obvious some people think the magic system in this game is JUST FINE. great, go make a post about it. this thread is for suggestions about changing the magic system
if you think its fine, you dont need to post here and make arguments. but i guess having 6000 or 20000 posts gives you that authority.

Well some that like it are making valid points of how to make use of existing parts of the game to try and correct the inequities via creative use, but true it might be better in its own thread of 'How to get the most out of the existing Magic Rules to be an epic Magic User'.

I see it more like this:
Some people are saying, "Hey, this hammer is broken! How can we fix it?"
Other people are saying, "That's a multi-tool you're holding."

...realistically your character isn't always going to be PPE super-charged and always have advance warning of everything so it can always prepare everything it needs to deal with a threat.

True.
What about it?
Do you expect your characters to always be able to readily handle every situation they run into, even when they're caught off-guard and unprepared?

Except the point being made seemed fairly evident that his position was that you can always be super-charged and always prepared and ambushes and unexpected attacks never occur and mages can always be ready with all the PPE and spells prepared that they need to win the day.

Evident to you, perhaps, not so much to me, though I haven't been paying as much attention to your interactions with him as you have.

If you'd like to quote the specific things that he said that show that his position is that you can always be super-charged, prepared, etc., I'd be happy to read it and re-evaluate my take on things.

If you want portable PPE storage for your mage, a TW item might well work better.

Except the TW item isn't really seen as a pure magic item, it's a mixing of technology with magic which isn't generally seen as 'real' magic. Some would like their magic items including their PPE storage being from purely magical sources sans technology.

First I've heard of TW items not being "pure magic."
If you want to play a mage who's so prejudiced against tech that he rejects even technowizardry, that could well be interesting, but only in a "MacGyver refuses to use a gun" sort of way.

Well just because you think the game's designed for a particular style of play doesn't necessarily mean that it is,

You seem to be claiming that Kevin intended for the game to be set up where mages could cast high level spells without teamwork or prep, but that he failed miserably and accidentally created a system where teamwork and prep are necessary to cast high level spells.
Got anything at all to support that notion?

and just because people look for ways to make it more enjoyable for themselves shouldn't be rubbing you the wrong way let alone rating them as short-sighted and self-centered.

They're salting the food before they taste it.
They're crying that something is broken, when they've never used it as intended.
That's short-sighted because they're not bothering to look past their own expectations at what the reality of the game is.
That's self-centered because they're calling for rules fixes that would ruin the game for others, simply because they think it would make it more fun for them personally.

You're after all displaying your own self-centeredness insisting it should be the way you like it and getting irritated that they want to adjust it to play more their way.

Except that I'm not insisting that the game should be the way I like it as much as I'm pointing out the way the game IS, and describing why I like it.
Granted, I would much rather the game be enjoyable for me than for you, and there is certainly a degree of self-centeredness in that... but again, I'm simply saying that a multi-tool is perfectly legitimate as it is, and it's not the fault of the tool that it's not good for driving nails, it's the fault of the person mistaking it for a hammer.

As long as someone's not demanding you play it their way and just looking for ways to make play better for them you've really no reason to get annoyed or dismiss their points because they disagree with you. Better to simply go 'Not the way I roll but hey enjoy it how you want' than go 'you should rolling my way and I won't hear of any others'.

a) Never think that I don't hear other people, even if I dismiss them. I'm always willing to consider new perspectives, which is one reason why I ask so many questions to figure out where people are coming from.
b) If all somebody is doing is thinking up house-rules for their own game, that's cool. In that case, all I'm doing is pointing out that before house-ruling, they might want to take a really good look at how the game is intended to be played in the first place, and give it a good chance.
But the indication of posting "fixes" to the magic system is that the system is broken, and it's not.
Not in the ways that have been complained about so far, anyway.

When people are talking about how they want to run the game in their own home, that's one thing.
When people are talking about how the game should be, that's another, because then they're not only telling me how they want their game to be run, they're telling me how they want MY game to be run.
Not that this is always bad, if done politely- just don't do that, then complain when I return the favor.

[Killer Cyborg]

I should point out the one who was dismissing how others play as being wrong was you, such as telling someone he wasn't playing his mage right and you could play it better.

If a person has a tool, and the person has a goal, and they complain that they cannot accomplish their goal with that tool, AND you know from personal experience that a different approach can lead to that tool being used to accomplish said goal, then I don't see the problem with saying that the first person is using the tool wrong.

What's the alternative?
That they're using a tool that's sufficient to the task, and they're not accomplishing the task, but they're doing it right?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I think it comes down to the simple fact, some just dont know how to use the tools, while the glittlerboy is one tough sob but it very easy to cause havoc to it using a 1st lvl spell.

[Damian Magecraft]

I think it comes down to the simple fact, some just dont know how to use the tools, while the glittlerboy is one tough sob but it very easy to cause havoc to it using a 1st lvl spell.

while that may be true viper...
Apparently we are not allowed to say that...
as it apparently offends the delicate sensibilities of some to be told maybe they just are not as familiar with the tools.

[Nightmask]

I think it comes down to the simple fact, some just dont know how to use the tools, while the glittlerboy is one tough sob but it very easy to cause havoc to it using a 1st lvl spell.

while that may be true viper...
Apparently we are not allowed to say that...
as it apparently offends the delicate sensibilities of some to be told maybe they just are not as familiar with the tools.

Much like others get their delicate sensibilities offended when being told that perhaps when their GM makes it easy on them by providing situations that their tools are just perfect for that said condition isn't the norm but instead the exception and their tools aren't as effective as they think they are. Easy to feel confident when one is always given a situation tailored so they can always excel, rather than having to excel when things aren't tailored for you.

But alas what is one to do when someone insists 'you just need to play it my way' is the answer and dismisses the complaints of others out of hand, falling into that trap that there is a 'right' way and it's of course their own, rather than realizing their error in thinking that when it's not a case of right or wrong but of what's suited to the individual.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I think it comes down to the simple fact, some just dont know how to use the tools, while the glittlerboy is one tough sob but it very easy to cause havoc to it using a 1st lvl spell.

while that may be true viper...
Apparently we are not allowed to say that...
as it apparently offends the delicate sensibilities of some to be told maybe they just are not as familiar with the tools.

Much like others get their delicate sensibilities offended when being told that perhaps when their GM makes it easy on them by providing situations that their tools are just perfect for that said condition isn't the norm but instead the exception and their tools aren't as effective as they think they are. Easy to feel confident when one is always given a situation tailored so they can always excel, rather than having to excel when things aren't tailored for you.

But alas what is one to do when someone insists 'you just need to play it my way' is the answer and dismisses the complaints of others out of hand, falling into that trap that there is a 'right' way and it's of course their own, rather than realizing their error in thinking that when it's not a case of right or wrong but of what's suited to the individual.

this is nothing about easy GMs or tailored situations its about use of the spells

[Damian Magecraft]

I think it comes down to the simple fact, some just dont know how to use the tools, while the glittlerboy is one tough sob but it very easy to cause havoc to it using a 1st lvl spell.

while that may be true viper...
Apparently we are not allowed to say that...
as it apparently offends the delicate sensibilities of some to be told maybe they just are not as familiar with the tools.

Much like others get their delicate sensibilities offended when being told that perhaps when their GM makes it easy on them by providing situations that their tools are just perfect for that said condition isn't the norm but instead the exception and their tools aren't as effective as they think they are. Easy to feel confident when one is always given a situation tailored so they can always excel, rather than having to excel when things aren't tailored for you.

But alas what is one to do when someone insists 'you just need to play it my way' is the answer and dismisses the complaints of others out of hand, falling into that trap that there is a 'right' way and it's of course their own, rather than realizing their error in thinking that when it's not a case of right or wrong but of what's suited to the individual.

and you claim there is no scorn...
Yet you keep insisting my gm is "taking it easy" on me...
so who is insisting who is playing it "wrong"?

The only wrong way to play is the one where you are not having fun.
You are complaining that it is no fun to play mages in your current play style...
That would then mean its the wrong style for mages... yes?

You say the Tool is broken...
Well Killer Cyborg said it best...

Its a shoddy carpenter that blames his tools.

[Nightmask]

while that may be true viper...
Apparently we are not allowed to say that...
as it apparently offends the delicate sensibilities of some to be told maybe they just are not as familiar with the tools.

Much like others get their delicate sensibilities offended when being told that perhaps when their GM makes it easy on them by providing situations that their tools are just perfect for that said condition isn't the norm but instead the exception and their tools aren't as effective as they think they are. Easy to feel confident when one is always given a situation tailored so they can always excel, rather than having to excel when things aren't tailored for you.

But alas what is one to do when someone insists 'you just need to play it my way' is the answer and dismisses the complaints of others out of hand, falling into that trap that there is a 'right' way and it's of course their own, rather than realizing their error in thinking that when it's not a case of right or wrong but of what's suited to the individual.

and you claim there is no scorn...
Yet you keep insisting my gm is "taking it easy" on me...
so who is insisting who is playing it "wrong"?

Now see, here you speak with contempt of others and deride them for not playing your way yet quickly go on the defensive when someone points it out and notes what you yourself have said points to you having it easy compared to others. You not I stated that your GM arranges things so you have time to plan and you always get warnings to prepare for attacks, that there are no unexpected/unforshadowed events that come along.

I also apparently have to point out that I've never said you're playing 'wrong', having it easy compared to others is not playing wrong as long as everyone's enjoying themselves. You however have definitely stated how everyone's playing 'wrong' because you can do it 'better' and implying that they're just whining and have no justification for their complaints because of that. Something that does make you wrong because they're entitled to their interpretations of things and you've no entitlement to tell them that they're playing 'wrong'.

The only wrong way to play is the one where you are not having fun.
You are complaining that it is no fun to play mages in your current play style...
That would then mean its the wrong style for mages... yes?

You say the Tool is broken...
Well Killer Cyborg said it best...

Its a shoddy carpenter that blames his tools.

It's also a tool that tells everyone that they're using the tool wrong because you think the tool because it works in your game with your GM is the same tool in someone else's game run differently by a different GM. There are no perfect game systems, they all have problems somewhere, the better ones have enough good points that the problems aren't enough to keep people from supporting them. The Magic system for Palladium isn't perfect, you are not the representative of the mage and one who deems how one has to play to be 'right', and all you seem primarily intent upon is telling those that disagree with you about it is that you're 'right', that they're playing the characters 'wrong', and worse mocking them with the implication that they're just so inferior because if they all played like your 'superior' self they wouldn't have those complaints. Well you're no better than anyone else and just because your favored class is the mage it doesn't make you the authority over how one plays them or how any GM should run a game that includes them.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

while that may be true viper...
Apparently we are not allowed to say that...
as it apparently offends the delicate sensibilities of some to be told maybe they just are not as familiar with the tools.

Much like others get their delicate sensibilities offended when being told that perhaps when their GM makes it easy on them by providing situations that their tools are just perfect for that said condition isn't the norm but instead the exception and their tools aren't as effective as they think they are. Easy to feel confident when one is always given a situation tailored so they can always excel, rather than having to excel when things aren't tailored for you.

But alas what is one to do when someone insists 'you just need to play it my way' is the answer and dismisses the complaints of others out of hand, falling into that trap that there is a 'right' way and it's of course their own, rather than realizing their error in thinking that when it's not a case of right or wrong but of what's suited to the individual.

and you claim there is no scorn...
Yet you keep insisting my gm is "taking it easy" on me...
so who is insisting who is playing it "wrong"?

Now see, here you speak with contempt of others and deride them for not playing your way yet quickly go on the defensive when someone points it out and notes what you yourself have said points to you having it easy compared to others. You not I stated that your GM arranges things so you have time to plan and you always get warnings to prepare for attacks, that there are no unexpected/unforshadowed events that come along.

I also apparently have to point out that I've never said you're playing 'wrong', having it easy compared to others is not playing wrong as long as everyone's enjoying themselves. You however have definitely stated how everyone's playing 'wrong' because you can do it 'better' and implying that they're just whining and have no justification for their complaints because of that. Something that does make you wrong because they're entitled to their interpretations of things and you've no entitlement to tell them that they're playing 'wrong'.

The only wrong way to play is the one where you are not having fun.
You are complaining that it is no fun to play mages in your current play style...
That would then mean its the wrong style for mages... yes?

You say the Tool is broken...
Well Killer Cyborg said it best...

Its a shoddy carpenter that blames his tools.

It's also a tool that tells everyone that they're using the tool wrong because you think the tool because it works in your game with your GM is the same tool in someone else's game run differently by a different GM. There are no perfect game systems, they all have problems somewhere, the better ones have enough good points that the problems aren't enough to keep people from supporting them. The Magic system for Palladium isn't perfect, you are not the representative of the mage and one who deems how one has to play to be 'right', and all you seem primarily intent upon is telling those that disagree with you about it is that you're 'right', that they're playing the characters 'wrong', and worse mocking them with the implication that they're just so inferior because if they all played like your 'superior' self they wouldn't have those complaints. Well you're no better than anyone else and just because your favored class is the mage it doesn't make you the authority over how one plays them or how any GM should run a game that includes them.

10 different gms are going to have 10 different styles of gameplay with 10 different types of house rules, and 10 different takes on magic

[Nightmask]

In regards to the actual topic, improving spell ranges and damages to be more in range with what modern weapons possess would prove fairly equitable, as well as allowing for easier construction of pure magic items and allowing mages to have that special mage flavor that many see for mages. One feels much better with a mage (outside of a TW ) when it can handle itself via magic rather than having to resort to technology. Not much point to being a mage if you're primarily relying on modern weapons and armor because the spell costs, damages, and ranges ensure the tech-character is going to have the advantage.

[Nightmask]

10 different gms are going to have 10 different styles of gameplay with 10 different types of house rules, and 10 different takes on magic

And it will be right for all of them, in their own games.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

10 different gms are going to have 10 different styles of gameplay with 10 different types of house rules, and 10 different takes on magic

And it will be right for all of them, in their own games.

so because 10 different gms have different takes on magic but the magic system needs to be fixed each gm is still going to have their take on magic

[Nightmask]

10 different gms are going to have 10 different styles of gameplay with 10 different types of house rules, and 10 different takes on magic

And it will be right for all of them, in their own games.

so because 10 different gms have different takes on magic but the magic system needs to be fixed each gm is still going to have their take on magic

And if you don't have problems with it you don't need to tell everyone you think there's nothing wrong with the system in a thread for those who think there is or tell them that they're 'playing it wrong'. You simply go 'not my problem, got nothing to contribute' and go post in other threads instead or start your 'why I think the magic system is just fine' thread.

[Damian Magecraft]

10 different gms are going to have 10 different styles of gameplay with 10 different types of house rules, and 10 different takes on magic

And it will be right for all of them, in their own games.

so because 10 different gms have different takes on magic but the magic system needs to be fixed each gm is still going to have their take on magic

And if you don't have problems with it you don't need to tell everyone you think there's nothing wrong with the system in a thread for those who think there is or tell them that they're 'playing it wrong'. You simply go 'not my problem, got nothing to contribute' and go post in other threads instead or start your 'why I think the magic system is just fine' thread.

Oh I see...
so those that disagree with you can just go away?
How very democratic of you...

[Mech-Viper Prime]

10 different gms are going to have 10 different styles of gameplay with 10 different types of house rules, and 10 different takes on magic

And it will be right for all of them, in their own games.

so because 10 different gms have different takes on magic but the magic system needs to be fixed each gm is still going to have their take on magic

And if you don't have problems with it you don't need to tell everyone you think there's nothing wrong with the system in a thread for those who think there is or tell them that they're 'playing it wrong'. You simply go 'not my problem, got nothing to contribute' and go post in other threads instead or start your 'why I think the magic system is just fine' thread.

well i did start this thread, and i dont think i said anyone is doing it wrong, gameplay will affect on how the game plays out , but i see you had a rough day at the beach, because you are sounding a little sandy

[Mech-Viper Prime]

In regards to the actual topic, improving spell ranges and damages to be more in range with what modern weapons possess would prove fairly equitable, as well as allowing for easier construction of pure magic items and allowing mages to have that special mage flavor that many see for mages. One feels much better with a mage (outside of a TW ) when it can handle itself via magic rather than having to resort to technology. Not much point to being a mage if you're primarily relying on modern weapons and armor because the spell costs, damages, and ranges ensure the tech-character is going to have the advantage.

I'd like to see that... I don't expect a 1st level mage to be on par with a 1st level CS Grunt for example. As discussed before, different tools for different jobs. What I would hope to see is that a Higher Level mage is clearly better then a 1st level CS Grunt or any Gun Toting character. Possibily being able to stand up to Power Armor and Robots.

i hope a higher level mage could take out a 1st lvl CS grunt,if not

[Nightmask]

Oh I see...
so those that disagree with you can just go away?
How very democratic of you...

Why am I not surprised you'd try and spin that in such a fashion...

You obviously have no problems with the magic system, so you nothing positive to contribute to a thread about fixing it. You've spent your time primarily declaring how anyone who doesn't like the system is wrong and they just aren't playing it 'right', i.e. YOUR way because your way is the 'right' way. DEMOCRATICALLY speaking one would need to be actually working cooperatively with others towards a particular goal providing feedback towards that end, you are not doing that. You told someone that he wasn't playing his own character right because YOU could play it better, and that anyone who had problems with the system just don't know how to play it 'right', like you think you have the only say in.

We get it, you think you're the only one who knows how to play a mage and anyone who doesn't play a mage your way is as far as you concerned wrong and should be playing your way. We aren't interested in you going on ad nauseum how everyone's wrong and should be playing your way in a thread for those who don't agree with you and think you're wrong and the system needs fixing. Playing it your way isn't a fix, so how about letting those who want to fix things actually discuss how they might go about fixing it and you can sit back and keep telling yourself how wrong we are for playing it a way you don't agree with.

[Damian Magecraft]

Oh I see...
so those that disagree with you can just go away?
How very democratic of you...

Why am I not surprised you'd try and spin that in such a fashion...

You obviously have no problems with the magic system, so you nothing positive to contribute to a thread about fixing it. You've spent your time primarily declaring how anyone who doesn't like the system is wrong and they just aren't playing it 'right', i.e. YOUR way because your way is the 'right' way. DEMOCRATICALLY speaking one would need to be actually working cooperatively with others towards a particular goal providing feedback towards that end, you are not doing that. You told someone that he wasn't playing his own character right because YOU could play it better, and that anyone who had problems with the system just don't know how to play it 'right', like you think you have the only say in.

We get it, you think you're the only one who knows how to play a mage and anyone who doesn't play a mage your way is as far as you concerned wrong and should be playing your way. We aren't interested in you going on ad nauseum how everyone's wrong and should be playing your way in a thread for those who don't agree with you and think you're wrong and the system needs fixing. Playing it your way isn't a fix, so how about letting those who want to fix things actually discuss how they might go about fixing it and you can sit back and keep telling yourself how wrong we are for playing it a way you don't agree with.

wait...I only see one way?
you claim its broken but refuse to entertain that maybe it is not?
Pot meet Kettle.
I saidit is not broken but could do with improvement to which you then lambaste me for my saying many of my ideas are nice but not needed?
You sir are just trolling at this point.

[Nightmask]

Oh I see...
so those that disagree with you can just go away?
How very democratic of you...

Why am I not surprised you'd try and spin that in such a fashion...

You obviously have no problems with the magic system, so you nothing positive to contribute to a thread about fixing it. You've spent your time primarily declaring how anyone who doesn't like the system is wrong and they just aren't playing it 'right', i.e. YOUR way because your way is the 'right' way. DEMOCRATICALLY speaking one would need to be actually working cooperatively with others towards a particular goal providing feedback towards that end, you are not doing that. You told someone that he wasn't playing his own character right because YOU could play it better, and that anyone who had problems with the system just don't know how to play it 'right', like you think you have the only say in.

We get it, you think you're the only one who knows how to play a mage and anyone who doesn't play a mage your way is as far as you concerned wrong and should be playing your way. We aren't interested in you going on ad nauseum how everyone's wrong and should be playing your way in a thread for those who don't agree with you and think you're wrong and the system needs fixing. Playing it your way isn't a fix, so how about letting those who want to fix things actually discuss how they might go about fixing it and you can sit back and keep telling yourself how wrong we are for playing it a way you don't agree with.

wait...I only see one way?
you claim its broken but refuse to entertain that maybe it is not?
Pot meet Kettle.
I saidit is not broken but could do with improvement to which you then lambaste me for my saying many of my ideas are nice but not needed?
You sir are just trolling at this point.

Yes you are, aren't you? Since 'play it my way' isn't an idea, telling your GM to always give you advance warning so you can plan for everything. 'It's not broken you're just playing it wrong' isn't a useful idea either, that's just you telling people the only way to play is your way.