Fixes to the Rifts magic systems

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Yes you are, aren't you? Since 'play it my way' isn't an idea, telling your GM to always give you advance warning so you can plan for everything. 'It's not broken you're just playing it wrong' isn't a useful idea either, that's just you telling people the only way to play is your way.

people who do great with Magic are the ones who can think quickly, act quicker and knows the spells, My ex-wife #2 was great about that, she upset a few older players with the way she used it, like she played magic for years. then you get the opposite the ones who try and fail every time and cry about the system.

[Nightmask]

Yes you are, aren't you? Since 'play it my way' isn't an idea, telling your GM to always give you advance warning so you can plan for everything. 'It's not broken you're just playing it wrong' isn't a useful idea either, that's just you telling people the only way to play is your way.

people who do great with Magic are the ones who can think quickly, act quicker and knows the spells, My ex-wife #2 was great about that, she upset a few older players with the way she used it, like she played magic for years. then you get the opposite the ones who try and fail every time and cry about the system.

And there are those who have legitimate concerns that get dismissed out of hand by those who are just fine with things. See, there are more options than just 'you're great and adaptable' and 'you're just pitiful and you blame the system for your badness', just because someone has issues doesn't mean that it's because they're just bad at it and blaming the system. That's just an unsupported opinion of yours dismissing their concerns.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Yes you are, aren't you? Since 'play it my way' isn't an idea, telling your GM to always give you advance warning so you can plan for everything. 'It's not broken you're just playing it wrong' isn't a useful idea either, that's just you telling people the only way to play is your way.

people who do great with Magic are the ones who can think quickly, act quicker and knows the spells, My ex-wife #2 was great about that, she upset a few older players with the way she used it, like she played magic for years. then you get the opposite the ones who try and fail every time and cry about the system.

And there are those who have legitimate concerns that get dismissed out of hand by those who are just fine with things. See, there are more options than just 'you're great and adaptable' and 'you're just pitiful and you blame the system for your badness', just because someone has issues doesn't mean that it's because they're just bad at it and blaming the system. That's just an unsupported opinion of yours dismissing their concerns.

Not I notice this in over thirty years of role playing games and thru different gaming stsyems, its normally the player , who gets or doesnt

[Nightmask]

Yes you are, aren't you? Since 'play it my way' isn't an idea, telling your GM to always give you advance warning so you can plan for everything. 'It's not broken you're just playing it wrong' isn't a useful idea either, that's just you telling people the only way to play is your way.

people who do great with Magic are the ones who can think quickly, act quicker and knows the spells, My ex-wife #2 was great about that, she upset a few older players with the way she used it, like she played magic for years. then you get the opposite the ones who try and fail every time and cry about the system.

And there are those who have legitimate concerns that get dismissed out of hand by those who are just fine with things. See, there are more options than just 'you're great and adaptable' and 'you're just pitiful and you blame the system for your badness', just because someone has issues doesn't mean that it's because they're just bad at it and blaming the system. That's just an unsupported opinion of yours dismissing their concerns.

Not I notice this in over thirty years of role playing games and thru different gaming stsyems, its normally the player , who gets or doesnt

Or could be the GM doing a poor job and criticizing the player for his failure to present things in an understandable fashion. GM's are as likely to be the problem as a player in such a case, and they too often let 'I'm always right' go to their head because they aren't.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Or could be the GM doing a poor job and criticizing the player for his failure to present things in an understandable fashion. GM's are as likely to be the problem as a player in such a case, and they too often let 'I'm always right' go to their head because they aren't.

or a person not able see the fault in themselves but rather blame the system is broken because they cant ever think maybe the problem is with themselves, but hey we dont game togethor so ,

[Nightmask]

Or could be the GM doing a poor job and criticizing the player for his failure to present things in an understandable fashion. GM's are as likely to be the problem as a player in such a case, and they too often let 'I'm always right' go to their head because they aren't.

or a person not able see the fault in themselves but rather blame the system is broken because they cant ever think maybe the problem is with themselves, but hey we dont game togethor so ,

Yes that would be tedious, as you seem to feel everyone else is at fault and wrong from a need to defend the system because you exploit it well enough for yourself. Much like you think I've said the system was broken and must just be a bad player of a mage when neither is the case, I've simply noted that some disagree with the assertion that the system is perfect (it isn't, nothing is ) and ways of making it more workable for them. In disagreeing with you you automatically labeled me a disgruntled player because you don't consider any criticisms of the magic system as valid while never having seen me play. Really need to not be doing that, because while you're tossing those labels around you're racking up plenty of your own I'm sure you would consider to be quite unwarranted and unflattering. I don't know though, you might welcome all those labels for some odd reason and not mind them while slapping unwarranted and unflattering labels onto others.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Or could be the GM doing a poor job and criticizing the player for his failure to present things in an understandable fashion. GM's are as likely to be the problem as a player in such a case, and they too often let 'I'm always right' go to their head because they aren't.

or a person not able see the fault in themselves but rather blame the system is broken because they cant ever think maybe the problem is with themselves, but hey we dont game togethor so ,

Yes that would be tedious, as you seem to feel everyone else is at fault and wrong from a need to defend the system because you exploit it well enough for yourself. Much like you think I've said the system was broken and must just be a bad player of a mage when neither is the case, I've simply noted that some disagree with the assertion that the system is perfect (it isn't, nothing is ) and ways of making it more workable for them. In disagreeing with you you automatically labeled me a disgruntled player because you don't consider any criticisms of the magic system as valid while never having seen me play. Really need to not be doing that, because while you're tossing those labels around you're racking up plenty of your own I'm sure you would consider to be quite unwarranted and unflattering. I don't know though, you might welcome all those labels for some odd reason and not mind them while slapping unwarranted and unflattering labels onto others.

ask me if i care,because i dont what others say about me,but you seem like to threw around labels around,but like i said some get it, some dont its that simple, i have seen some good ideas that might help weaker players, thats is one of the hats a gm wears, but you seems to see every disagreement as a personal insult, this , the juicer thread. relaxed its just a game and the internet

[Subjugator]

How do you fix any element of any RPG? You change it so it works for your group. *shrug* I learned about how effective a Magellan can be from a German guy at the Open House. I had been in the 'it needs to be fixed' camp for years until I saw this guy. Now I realize that it's not that the events must be packaged to allow planning. It's that the mage must package himself to be well situated for most of what comes up.

I still can't play images well in this system, but I can say that they can be played well. Carpet of adhesion is flat out broken. Magic net is malignant. Time slip? Evil. The list goes on and on.

The problem with asking for more damage, et al, is that it ignores that images have access to virtually everything that mercantile and grunts have access to, plus a weapon that doesn't run out of bullets, lets them turn invisible, and dozens of other things besides.

There are things I would like to see, among them would be a removal of the armor restrictions, PPE channelling, and the ability to accelerate casting of high level spells for a PPE penalty.

[Proseksword]

Perhaps the easiest fix to magic in RIFTs would simply be to delete the paragraphs in the books where Mr. Siembieda says Ley Line Walkers are arrogantly proud of their magic and consider technology a crutch beneath them. While there's no legitimate reason why a Ley Line Walker can't use whatever tech equipment is handy, and the O.C.C. even gives them a starting energy weapon, the fluff text is so insistent that they disdain using them that players feel like every time they pull the trigger of a laser rifle they're playing the character wrong. The whole setting building up to a big "Magic vs. Technology" conflict doesn't help matters. If you make technology the enemy magic fights, it simply feels weird for them to be using things like ion pistols and fusion blocks.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

How do you fix any element of any RPG? You change it so it works for your group. *shrug* I learned about how effective a Magellan can be from a German guy at the Open House. I had been in the 'it needs to be fixed' camp for years until I saw this guy. Now I realize that it's not that the events must be packaged to allow planning. It's that the mage must package himself to be well situated for most of what comes up.

thank you

I still can't play images well in this system, but I can say that they can be played well. Carpet of adhesion is flat out broken. Magic net is malignant. Time slip? Evil. The list goes on and on.

The problem with asking for more damage, et al, is that it ignores that images have access to virtually everything that mercantile and grunts have access to, plus a weapon that doesn't run out of bullets, lets them turn invisible, and dozens of other things besides.

There are things I would like to see, among them would be a removal of the armor restrictions, PPE channelling, and the ability to accelerate casting of high level spells for a PPE penalty.

I can see adding more PPE to cut the cast time or the duration time, and decreasing the cast time for low level spells for higher level mages , but that non armor restrictions screams to me magic cant protect me, which by theory should destroy the mages ability and faith in magic

[Shark_Force]

Further, the most powerful of the three--tech--is incompatible with the other two in that getting the tech inside your body cripples your ability to use psionics and magic. Now, I'm not sure what difference it makes if I carry around a plasma ejector or have one implanted in my forearm, but apparently, if I have psionics or magic, carrying the ability to do large amounts of tech damage at range is okay but attaching it to my arm isn't. Whatever.

Under the current rules, it would hurt absolutely nothing to give everyone the ability to cast magic spells and a reasonable amount of P.P.E. (say, 1d4x10+10), make everyone a major psionic (most can be already... randomly!), and let everyone bionic out. And, if you did that, almost everyone would still wear M.D.C. armor and carry the biggest rifle he could get his hands on because tech is just straight-up better.

i disagree completely. tech is the most powerful of the three at one thing and one thing only: dealing damage. if this was the only important thing, or even the most important thing, that might be enough to say that tech is the most powerful. but it isn't. in the grand scheme of things, dealing damage sucks pretty bad, actually. it simply isn't remotely as good as what magic or psionics can do. i furthermore consider your valuation of psionics to be wrong - magic has had its abilities expanded so many times while psionics has gotten very little, and at this point pretty much anything psionics can do, magic can do better.

[Athos]

I can see adding more PPE to cut the cast time or the duration time, and decreasing the cast time for low level spells for higher level mages , but that non armor restrictions screams to me magic cant protect me, which by theory should destroy the mages ability and faith in magic

I don't see the need for more armor for mages. I think this is one of the few things the magic system has already implemented well. There are great spells like impervious to energy and invincible armor that are great for protection and defense.

Offense is where magic is very weak in Rifts, this is what needs improvement, I mean, I have never had a problem avoiding combat, or defending myself and getting away as a mage... the problem is when you have to take the field of battle, you can not do much other than slow down and harass your tech heavy opponent. It would be nice to lay down some whoop butt once in a while as a mage, but that just doesn't happen under the current system.

[Shark_Force]

offense for mages is plentiful and powerful. it just isn't the "your head asplode" kind of offense. those same defense and escape (and mobility) techniques that allow a mage to defend and escape, allow them to get within range of the fight. most fights, unless they're on a wide open plain (with no tall grass) or up in the air are not going to be at 1,200 feet or 2,000 feet distance; they'll take place at a few hundred feet, where you can see your opponent through all the obstacles in between you. heck, even at damage they're not so bad (how about 5d6 direct to HP, bypassing armor, for example?), and even range can be overcome if they have the right spells (though those usually take longer to cast) or, if they simply close the distance using other spells, or if they use techno-wizardry (which most OCC entries indicate is a popular option for magic-users).

[Shark_Force]

ah ok, i see your point now.

again, i would argue that it's not unreasonable.

and btw, tech is definitely limited in resources. you can only fire so many railgun bursts, energy blasts, mini-missiles, grenades, etc, and you only get a limited amount of MDC to sustain (and it's much much much harder to replace that than the MDC available via magic or psionics). yes, these are somewhat campaign-based, but they should not be ignored entirely. at some point, you're going to run out of ammo on a tech item just like a mage or psychic (a SAMAS, for example, has something like 50 bursts from the railgun and only 2 mini-missiles before it needs to disengage and reload; granted, a mage won't be casting 50 spells before resting unless they're on a ley line maybe, but that is *still* a limitation)

but basically, i can agree that magic suffers the most of those limitations... but i also would argue that it's power is greater to compensate. so in general, magic is only always limited in area 2, which both psionics and tech are also limited in. and also has a built-in way to avoid that problem. in the other two areas, you can use careful planning to avoid the limitations (there are plenty of lower level spells available, several of which can be used to buy yourself time to fire off the higher level spells without interruption), but i do have to admit those are still there.

i just disagree that it means magic is weaker than tech or psionics overall; the greater power available via psionics and magic (while still retaining much of the power available via tech) compensates for having those extra weaknesses.

[Lenwen]

Ok i heard the complaints about it ,so how would you fix it

Magic is a megaversal ability .. on a cosmic level..

Yet ..

Enviormental seals .. can stop it ..



Get rid of that aspect period ..

That is perhaps thee single most idiotic thing about the rules governing the magic system in Rifts .. an its due to KS wanting to balance out the game ..

But magic .. is not a Balancing act .. its ment to empower .. and as such should not be limited to things that are enviormentally sealed .. as its "big" weakness ..

[Mack]

Friends, I received a complaint or two regarding this thread. Please keep things civil. If you can't do that, please don't post.

For that matter, if you're just repeating what's already been posted, there's no reason to add to this discussion. Just let the topic die.

[Chronicle]

Problem with magic in this system is the time a caster goes through to cast a spell of comparable quality as tech. Fire a gun for 4d6 MD or an energy bolt by casting. It really hasn't been made clear if direct damage spells are instant or take time to cast, i would assume based on the other rules that your magic attacks are limited pretty badly.

Its really the only part of the system i find lacking and why many of my players don't use "mages". I would say direct damage spells of up to mid quality can be cast instantly based on the level of spell compared to the level of the caster, but i havn't really gone deep into it. Anhilate is a good example of a direct damae spell that rightfully should be on limited castability with it taking 2 or 3 attacks to cast.

In this game magic seems to hold more of a support roll the entire ti me until you get to a high enough level. Anyone with a decently high PE (24 and above) will have no problem saving vs other spells which makes it really a more difficult trade to master. wish there was a save vs tech

[Shark_Force]

again, the solution is *not* nuking. nuking is (and should be) the primary domain of technology, because that (and really really fast flight) is about all it has going for it, and it has the drawback of limited resources (i don't know how limited resources is a campaign-based drawback that can be ignored, whereas the ability of a magic-user to apply built-in resources such as time slip or various protective spells to prevent interruption is somehow a campaign-based drawback that can't be ignored, mind you).

the power of magic (including in combat) is in the spells that do things that technology cannot duplicate. there is no tech weapon to immobilize a target, guaranteed, for 2d6 melees (and quite possibly a lot longer). there is no technology that makes you immune to energy damage. there is no technology that removes your need to breathe entirely (not just an air supply, but literally not needing to breathe). there probably is technology, somewhere, that will let you control the weather to some extent, but i'm not aware of it being listed anywhere (it's most likely going to be just a mcguffin). there is no technology that lets you just mind-control a person without preparation. there is no technology to make a wall that is literally completely impervious to harm. there might be technology to teleport (the megaversal legion comes to mind), but it isn't generally speaking available. there is no technology capable of (literally) bringing people back from the dead (although i believe the implication is that the ML has technology that will allow your memories to be uploaded into a new clone, that's not entirely clear nor is it quite the same thing).

technology does a tiny handful of things well, and the rest it's pretty "meh" about. in order to compensate for the fact that it is only really good in a handful of areas, it needs to be really really good in those areas.

[Shark_Force]

I don't know how limited resources is a campaign-based drawback that can be ignored, whereas the ability of a magic-user to apply built-in resources such as time slip or various protective spells to prevent interruption is somehow a campaign-based drawback that can't be ignored, mind you.

By limited resources, I mean game-mechanical limited resources: P.P.E., I.S.P., Chi, whatever... anything that's part of your character's class that you have to expend to make Cool Stuff stuff happen.

Don't think of limited resources in this context as money or access. There is no way to anticipate cash flow or gear rarity until you're in the campaign. Rifts isn't D&D 3.X with wealth-by-level guidelines. Money and access is solely on the GM. Hence discussing it is pointless as any discussion devolves into, "My GM does this," and, "My GM does that." That doesn't further the conversation.

I don't have the time slip spell, but I figured out it's level 6. That means it takes 2 attacks to cast, you're probably wearing LBA to avoid penalties, and it costs you P.P.E. That's indisputable. Those are the restrictions the rules place on it.

There is no tech weapon to immobilize a target... There is no technology that makes you immune to energy damage. There is no technology that removes your need to breathe entirely... There is no technology that lets you just mind-control a person without preparation. There is no technology to make a wall that is literally completely impervious to harm. There is no technology capable of (literally) bringing people back from the dead...

We can't have that conversation, no matter how much you want to. We could go back and forth about what tech can do vs. what psionics can do vs. what magic can do. But that's uninteresting. If a new book comes out next week that lets psionics and technology do everything you listed, magic will still have the exact same limitations on it. It really will.

That's a problem.

and if a new magic book comes out next week with tons of level 5 and lower spells with low cost such that you can easily cast dozens of them from the power of a single nazcan canteen thingamajig, that would remove some of the limitations of magic quite easily.

tech doesn't have those things now, it generally speaking doesn't have anything close to those things now, and we have no reason to expect it to have those things any time soon.

and also, you *are* limited in resources for tech. as i said, you can only take so much MDC. this is not something where you can just instantly replace it. it takes time, which is a resource you don't have in sufficiently plentiful quantities while in the middle of a fight. you have ammo, in many cases, which (again) is limited to what you can carry. the SAMAS has 2000 rounds (50 bursts), not more. it carries 2 mini-missiles, not more. these things are clear limitations. your energy rifle has a limited number of shots per e-clip, and a limited number of e-clips. they are somewhat larger than the limitations on resources than magic has, but then magic can also expand resources; techno-wizardry devices can hold a charge for later use. energy sphere spells can store large amounts of PPE. various methods of PPE recovery exist around the world. talismans and scrolls can be used to store magical energy for later use.

furthermore, all you really need to gain enough time to use a spell like time slip is to use a lower level spell to protect you; armor of ithan will protect you from anything not directly possessing kinetic energy, energy field can block those things which do, various spells can obscure your location (and thus prevent people from interrupting), and so forth. these are built-in to the rules, options that can be used to avoid the drawbacks of higher-level spells.

[Damian Magecraft]

And if a new magic book comes out next week with tons of level 5 and lower spells with low cost such that you can easily cast dozens of them from the power of a single nazcan canteen thingamajig, that would remove some of the limitations of magic quite easily.

But it would only provide a host of level 1 through 5 spells. None of those level 1-5 spells will be as awesome as the levels 6-15 spells unless the writer doesn't follow the paradigm presented in the RUE--and if he doesn't follow them this discussion is useless.

However, if you want to argue that level 1-5 magic as presented is a force to be reckoned with on par with technology and psionics, and that level 6-15 spells are pointless, that could be a discussion worth having and does eliminate a restriction on magic.

I'd suggest starting a new topic though.

Tech doesn't have those things now, it generally speaking doesn't have anything close to those things now, and we have no reason to expect it to have those things any time soon.

First, why not? You listed several things that are at least hinted at, if not quantified yet. Then: Not the point. A unique effect is just unique. There are unique effects in each batch of Cool Stuff. There's seriously no reason to enumerate them. That's a nonargument.

... MDC... replace it... takes time... ammo... SAMAS... clear limitations... energy rifle has e-clip... techno-wizardry devices... energy sphere... store... PPE... methods of PPE recovery exist around the world... talismans and scrolls...

The GM controls cash and access. You control your character. During the campaign, the GM tells you how much money you get and what stuff is available. But your character sheet will always say that casting takes this much time, limits your armor, and costs P.P.E. You can't control the GM, so there's no reason to discuss those limits--in fact, there aren't any limits on technology until your GM starts the campaign. But before the campaign even begins, you've limits on your magicking that are distinct and separate and independent from the campaign because you chose to write Ley Line Walker on your character sheet rather than Full Conversion Borg or Mind Melter.

Does that make sense?
__________________________________________________
This is not a magic vs. tech debate. It's a Cool Stuff vs. Cool Stuff debate (or, at least, I'm trying to make it one). If you wanted to change the Cool Stuff to mystic herbology, tattoo magic, and super powers, we could do that. It doesn't matter. What matters is the restrictions that are placed on the Cool Stuff, and that Cool Stuff is reasonably balanced against other Cool Stuff. If it's not, then there's a design problem.

so are you saying that the GM controls the max payload of your weapons?

[Killer Cyborg]

there is no technology that removes your need to breathe entirely (not just an air supply, but literally not needing to breathe).

Transfer Intelligence Bot

[Balabanto]

Perhaps the easiest fix to magic in RIFTs would simply be to delete the paragraphs in the books where Mr. Siembieda says Ley Line Walkers are arrogantly proud of their magic and consider technology a crutch beneath them. While there's no legitimate reason why a Ley Line Walker can't use whatever tech equipment is handy, and the O.C.C. even gives them a starting energy weapon, the fluff text is so insistent that they disdain using them that players feel like every time they pull the trigger of a laser rifle they're playing the character wrong. The whole setting building up to a big "Magic vs. Technology" conflict doesn't help matters. If you make technology the enemy magic fights, it simply feels weird for them to be using things like ion pistols and fusion blocks.

This is highly insightful. The problem is that as written, players don't have to be stupid, but NPC's are kind of obliged to obey the flavor text.

[Balabanto]

offense for mages is plentiful and powerful. it just isn't the "your head asplode" kind of offense. those same defense and escape (and mobility) techniques that allow a mage to defend and escape, allow them to get within range of the fight. most fights, unless they're on a wide open plain (with no tall grass) or up in the air are not going to be at 1,200 feet or 2,000 feet distance; they'll take place at a few hundred feet, where you can see your opponent through all the obstacles in between you. heck, even at damage they're not so bad (how about 5d6 direct to HP, bypassing armor, for example?), and even range can be overcome if they have the right spells (though those usually take longer to cast) or, if they simply close the distance using other spells, or if they use techno-wizardry (which most OCC entries indicate is a popular option for magic-users).

Also, be careful. The shoe on the other foot is equally painful. Instead of making your Battle Magus a melee monstrosity, make it a SNIPER. Do you know what it's like to have to cross 500 feet of frustrating, dangerous terrain while being shot at with an energy rifle of any sort only to discover that instead of being on the opposite end of a dude in some battle armor, you're fighting a guy who's STILL a master of melee combat, surrounded in 3-4 magical force fields, and is wearing funky magical armor that does stuff? This is a giant ball of pain.

This also works for Ley Line Walkers, and any other class that isn't a Shifter. (That Hth Basic is a real killer)

There are a lot of ways to make a mage effective. Part of the problem is also the Spell Acquisition flavor text. Some GMs run this particularly hard, but at the same time, the reward for armored guys should be new gear. The reward for mages should be some new gear, and magic spells. I just allow mages to actually buy spells at the prices listed in the book. They still have to learn them, which takes up vast amounts of time, unless the spell acquisition rules are different for that class, but mages can be pretty tough, providing they're not being casually stupid.

[Voodoolaw]

It's my personal opinion that if magic were to be made more damaging, the idea of limiting resources mentioned is the way to go. We have made it work as is, but if you are going to ramp up damage output, either increase PPE cost or decrease the character's pool.

For balances used in other systems, I have always been a fan of drain in shadowrun, fatigue in harn, and the "this power may be kept up" mechanism is Star Wars D6.

Most of our combat encounters are within a few hundred feet so range hasn't been a problem.

The biggest gripe I have with magic (and sometimes to a much lesser extent, psionics,) is that many characters can ramp up their PE and become pretty impervious to saving throw magic. Too many of the spells, for my tastes, will have huge penalties if the character doesn't make the save, but too many heroic opponents will save way too often. Ie. the mage throws out a spell to blind, the high PE character is going to save the majority of the time, but if he doesn't he is probably toast once he starts taking a -10 penalty to everything. I would prefer toned down penalties and slightly more likelihood of making a save (in the form of reduced PE bonuses, not necessarily normal T#). This may not be the case in most games, but it seemed to come up in ours. So I house ruled it. Shocker.

[Killer Cyborg]

Perhaps the easiest fix to magic in RIFTs would simply be to delete the paragraphs in the books where Mr. Siembieda says Ley Line Walkers are arrogantly proud of their magic and consider technology a crutch beneath them. While there's no legitimate reason why a Ley Line Walker can't use whatever tech equipment is handy, and the O.C.C. even gives them a starting energy weapon, the fluff text is so insistent that they disdain using them that players feel like every time they pull the trigger of a laser rifle they're playing the character wrong. The whole setting building up to a big "Magic vs. Technology" conflict doesn't help matters. If you make technology the enemy magic fights, it simply feels weird for them to be using things like ion pistols and fusion blocks.

Agreed.

[Shark_Force]

so are you saying that the GM controls the max payload of your weapons?

The GM tells you what Cool Stuff is in the tech pile. Sounds like payload control to me.

you're still not getting it. to replace damaged armor, you need to spend hours or days. to replace a damaged protective spell, you need seconds. that's a limitation on availability of resources (time) that the GM cannot simply grant (plausibly) within combat. when your SAMAS runs out of bullets, you need to go back to base and spend several *minutes* getting a reload. that is, again, a limitation on availability of resources that the GM cannot simply handwave away within combat. your e-clip will only fire so many shots out of a rifle. you only have so many e-clips that you can plausibly keep ready. again, these are limits that the GM isn't going to be just handwaving away.

the limits on tech are higher, in many cases, but they are still there. you can pretend they don't exist all you like, but they do.

oh, and also, you've still got your double standard going. "But it would only provide a host of level 1 through 5 spells. None of those level 1-5 spells will be as awesome as the levels 6-15 spells unless the writer doesn't follow the paradigm presented in the RUE--and if he doesn't follow them this discussion is useless."

but the writer can just ignore the paradigm presented in every single rifts book printed when it comes to the capability of technology? seriously? we have to assume that in the next book, palladium is just going to randomly decide that technology is completely different from everything they've printed in dozens of world books, dimension books, source books, adventure books, etc?

you seriously need to sit down and examine the claims you're making if you want to be taken seriously...

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I will admit the damage should be increased as a mage gains levels if every single creature crawls out of a rift becomes a MDC creature because it's magically rich then a mage's damage should be increased to reflect that.

A glitterboy shouldnt be laughing at a Line ley Walker, in front of him, he should atleast be worried, if not scared

[Shark_Force]

I will admit the damage should be increased as a mage gains levels if every single creature crawls out of a rift becomes a MDC creature because it's magically rich then a mage's damage should be increased to reflect that.

A glitterboy shouldnt be laughing at a Line ley Walker, in front of him, he should atleast be worried, if not scared

if the ley line walker is close enough, the glitterboy is either worried, or clueless.

[Galroth]

I will admit the damage should be increased as a mage gains levels if every single creature crawls out of a rift becomes a MDC creature because it's magically rich then a mage's damage should be increased to reflect that.

A glitterboy shouldnt be laughing at a Line ley Walker, in front of him, he should atleast be worried, if not scared

I think the GB should be more worried about the LLW behind him than he is the one in front of him.

[Voodoolaw]

2. The spells do not scale that well as you increase in levels. Some spells you get that do 1D6 per level and cost are reasonable. Than you get up in lvls and can get the annihilate spell that does massive damage. I think that spells should scale a lot better. They should gradually go up in damage until they come close to the annihilate spell. Yes I do believe the cost to cast those spells should be higher to reflect the damage. I do not like this cheesy spell system that starts out really small and goes up by 1D6 per level. I would rather see something like 1D6 +10 per lvl or whatever.

Too many spells even of different levels have almost the same damage. I think the higher lvl the spell the more it should do.

A consistant formula for level + damage + range + misc bonuses = PPE. The current system mostly works but there are some incongruencies

[Voodoolaw]

1. I do not think that P.E. should give any bonus to save vs. magic at all. I think it is kinda silly that just because you have a good strong body you can resist any sort of magic.

I mostly agree with this but think there should be some sort of magic save bonus mechanic, probably toned down. With ME devoted to psi, not sure what else you would use attribute wise.

Of course, as we have no real world examples of magic of these types to fall back on, if palladium says magic is a visceral force that someone with a hardy constitution can resist, who are we to refute it as long as they present it in a consistent and plausible manner.

[Damian Magecraft]

I see two things that I do not like about the magic system.

1. I do not think that P.E. should give any bonus to save vs. magic at all. I think it is kinda silly that just because you have a good strong body you can resist any sort of magic.

Nah they can keep that... some spells require dodges, they just need to adjust it so some also require force of will to resist...
And then make it so that Spell strength scales faster or at least better.

[Killer Cyborg]

The general idea of physical endurance providing resistance to magic goes back a long way.
Conan was a prime example.

In Palladium, PE is tied directly into magic- it's what determines your PPE levels.

I can see why they have it that way.

But it's too easy to get insanely high saving throws with things how they are now.

[Voodoolaw]

But it's too easy to get insanely high saving throws with things how they are now.

Definately this. Change the scale.

[Damian Magecraft]

The general idea of physical endurance providing resistance to magic goes back a long way.
Conan was a prime example.

In Palladium, PE is tied directly into magic- it's what determines your PPE levels.

I can see why they have it that way.

But it's too easy to get insanely high saving throws with things how they are now.

From all I read of the Conan Novels and shorts I got the impression it was his sheer force of will that allowed him to shake of many spells...
But yeah the current set up does make getting high bonuses to save a tad to easy.
If they do not desire to alter the Bonuses vs saves then an alteration to the progression rate of spell strength would be in order one would think. As it stands now the best Spell Strength progression belongs to the LLW (in rifts) with a +4 over 13 levels (system wide the Wizard is the best with a +5 over 15 levels). Not even enough to off set high PE bonuses let alone the pluses to save many classes receive.
You may want to re-word this as it could be interpreted that you think it is too hard to save vs magic as it is currently written (I know that is not what you meant but... complaints have been made in this manner before that have resulted in the opposite of the desired effect coming into existence.)

[Mech-Viper Prime]

only problem i see with magic is spell strength bonuses are too little +1 every three level, when its should be +1 every two levels and +2 at level 15
so a +4 (+8 on a ley line) vs +9 (+18 on a ley line
this would reflect the power of magic

[Failgoat]

There are too many "All or Nothing" spells.

agreed

Mages should, as a general rule, need to use both gestures and words in order to cast spells.
There should be a skill that allows mages to cast without gestures (perhaps this skill should kick in automatically at high level).
There should be a skill that allows mages to cast without words.
And there should be an explanation as to why, in each case.

A lot more skills involving the arcane arts in general, imo.


5. Magic should not be able to beat tech at its own game.
A magically-created particle beam should NOT be more powerful than the tech version.

What happened to sub-particle acceleration? did it not get included in rue?

6. There need to be rules for disrupting ANY action that takes more than 2 attacks to complete. There should be a set of specific criteria that are met in order for there to be a threat of disrupting the action, and there should be a way for mages to attempt to keep from being disrupted (even if a specific skill is required to be taken).

a skill: Focus. this is just one skill of many needed to govern the application of magic. hmm, magic applications, another one, used in the process of creating new spells. seriously tho, there are so many skills for other areas its amazing how few there are for magic and all its diversity.

[Failgoat]

From all I read of the Conan Novels and shorts I got the impression it was his sheer force of will that allowed him to shake of many spells...

And the movie conan the barbarian. when thulsadhoom tries to convert him at the end of the movie you can clearly see it mind zapping him, then he pulls through it and kills the guy. it was a mental battle through and through.

but then theyd have to put which type of save was required for each and every spell wouldnt they?

[Failgoat]

only problem i see with magic is spell strength bonuses are too little +1 every three level, when its should be +1 every two levels and +2 at level 15
so a +4 (+8 on a ley line) vs +9 (+18 on a ley line
this would reflect the power of magic

i agree this is a problem.
i am a bit surprised tho. the guy that started this thread only has one issue with the magic system? i mean no offense, this is my favorite thread
thats a decent fix too. at first i thought "what? +18 to spell strength? no way thats too much!"
but shouldnt a lvl 15 spell caster have that kind of power in his magic? i think so.

[Killer Cyborg]

Having read a huge number of Conan novels, especially all the original stories by Robert E. Howard, yeah... a lot of Conan being able to shrug off spells is his strong will... in terms of Palladium... M.E., not just because he's so physically strong either.

Yes, a lot of it was his strong will.
But not all of it.

At least, that's not how it's been interpreted a lot of the time.
It goes back to D&D.
Look at how saves were originally done there. IIRC, fighters had good saves against magic.
When Barbarians (i.e., Conan) were introduced, they had even better saves/resistance against magic.

[Nightmask]

Having read a huge number of Conan novels, especially all the original stories by Robert E. Howard, yeah... a lot of Conan being able to shrug off spells is his strong will... in terms of Palladium... M.E., not just because he's so physically strong either.

Yes, a lot of it was his strong will.
But not all of it.

At least, that's not how it's been interpreted a lot of the time.
It goes back to D&D.
Look at how saves were originally done there. IIRC, fighters had good saves against magic.
When Barbarians (i.e., Conan) were introduced, they had even better saves/resistance against magic.

Hard to say how much of Conan's survival against magic was his physical constitution and how much his indomitable will, there were many spells that attacked his body rather than his mind and he managed to shrug them off. Plus there's his Atlantean ancestry if memory serves, royal bloodline and all that. Given how magical energies are generally linked to that vitality (PE) in Palladium it's not hard to imagine that at least partly explaining why an exceptional PE provides you with saves against magic. It's just hard to see how you'd split things off so that you can easily define a spell as physical vs mental so that you got a save of X from PE towards those and a save of Y from ME towards the other.

[Killer Cyborg]

Really, I think they might be better off doing away with saving throws entirely, at least as they are now.
Take the active defense that is the basis of the combat system already, and extend it to magic (and other areas) as well.

If a spell has a physical attack (fire ball, lightning, etc), then it can be dodged or, in some cases, parried.
If the spell is a mental attack, then the defender should be able to make a mental defense roll to counter it.
If the spell is an intangible attack on the body (like Death Word), then the defender should be able to make a physical defense roll against it.

The net effect would be similar to saves, but more dynamic, more in line with the rest of the system, and more realistic.

[Voodoolaw]

Really, I think they might be better off doing away with saving throws entirely, at least as they are now.
Take the active defense that is the basis of the combat system already, and extend it to magic (and other areas) as well.

If a spell has a physical attack (fire ball, lightning, etc), then it can be dodged or, in some cases, parried.
If the spell is a mental attack, then the defender should be able to make a mental defense roll to counter it.
If the spell is an intangible attack on the body (like Death Word), then the defender should be able to make a physical defense roll against it.

The net effect would be similar to saves, but more dynamic, more in line with the rest of the system, and more realistic.

I would be onboard for something lime this. You are rolling vs a general target number anyway, so just switching it to an active defense roll isnt going to slow down combat at all. Spellcasters just need a strike bonus in place of their weak spell strength bonus.

[Shark_Force]

@hey_i_can_chan: the GM can *also* give you unlimited spell point recovery items. the GM can also give you TW items that cast the spell you want in a single action. the GM can give you TW force fields that are always on and have thousands of MDC if he wants.

so don't give me any BS about how it's possible to avoid those limitations with tech, but not with magic. because that's all it is: BS.

and your double standard is that palladium might make a new book tons of new tech that duplicates the abilities of magic, which has ABSOLUTELY NO BASIS, and yet... when i point out that palladium could just as easily make a new book with level 1-5 spells only that cost very little and have those same abilities, it's somehow impossible.

you're making up idiotic arguments in favor of tech, and then denying equivalent possibilities could ever happen for magic. you DO have a double standard, you're just too blind to even see that.

but whatever, i'm done arguing with you. i have better things to do with my time than try to explain how to see what's right in front of your face to someone who refuses to listen.

Warning: User warned for trolling. NMI

[Nether]

again, the solution is *not* nuking. nuking is (and should be) the primary domain of technology, because that (and really really fast flight) is about all it has going for it, and it has the drawback of limited resources (i don't know how limited resources is a campaign-based drawback that can be ignored, whereas the ability of a magic-user to apply built-in resources such as time slip or various protective spells to prevent interruption is somehow a campaign-based drawback that can't be ignored, mind you).

the power of magic (including in combat) is in the spells that do things that technology cannot duplicate. there is no tech weapon to immobilize a target, guaranteed, for 2d6 melees (and quite possibly a lot longer). there is no technology that makes you immune to energy damage. there is no technology that removes your need to breathe entirely (not just an air supply, but literally not needing to breathe). there probably is technology, somewhere, that will let you control the weather to some extent, but i'm not aware of it being listed anywhere (it's most likely going to be just a mcguffin). there is no technology that lets you just mind-control a person without preparation. there is no technology to make a wall that is literally completely impervious to harm. there might be technology to teleport (the megaversal legion comes to mind), but it isn't generally speaking available. there is no technology capable of (literally) bringing people back from the dead (although i believe the implication is that the ML has technology that will allow your memories to be uploaded into a new clone, that's not entirely clear nor is it quite the same thing).

technology does a tiny handful of things well, and the rest it's pretty "meh" about. in order to compensate for the fact that it is only really good in a handful of areas, it needs to be really really good in those areas.

Just to point out;

Limited resources,

Magic has ppe which the mage has to recooperate after each fight which they need to rest (which can be for long periods) and can't do anything else during. The mage prolly doesn't have enough ppe to do anything to powerful, and if so not very much at all. He tends to be stuck with low level spells that doesn't offer damage output of tech, and sure his armor is more renewable in combat but he has to avoid frontlines because overall he is to weak armor / damage wise but does have more versatility as long as he has enough ppe to use it. With more money you can get a ppe battery or two to help out and eventually ppe in a encounter won't be a problem but still takes longer to cast, but you will need to recharge those with your time.

Tech has limited resource by number of clips, missiles, finite armor ext, but some of these can be avoided like multiple forcefields that he just switches as needs. Usually the tech guy has more than enough of the prior to use for a fight without to much risk of running dry. Going back to base to reload/re-arm is a simple matter and it doesn't take that long, not compared to meditating for many hours. Also you can reload or even better is someone else reloads / re-arms you and you have that time to do other things. With enough money you can have enough resources to have the best tech and a big supply. For PA/Robots/Vehicles you can easily outclass just about any mage, except high level ones and smart ones but they have to play 5 times as hard to matter.

I have to disagree with the tech can't duplicate. I think tech duplicates many of magic. Responding to bolded above.
There is tech that lets you breath in just about any environment, full environmental armor, oxygen tanks ext. Tech that immobilizes targets is things like stun weapons that reduce your combat abilities (this to a lesser degree) to things like plain old manacles/handcuffs, then you have anti psi/magic gear you can strap on them, more malicious approach is implants to chopping off body parts. There may even be some goey foam grenade ext that is more like the spell, but not sure if said is listed anywhere in books. Tech can perform ressurrection to a degree, to reviving the recently deceased. Even today there is cases of someone being dead for more than a day and they were brought back. Add high tech world and the odds go up. Same goes for MD damage to sdc body, they are down or dead on the field but can still be revived, though they might need some cybernetics in recovery. There is also truth serums to make you talk which is akin to telepathy ext, not to include what you can do with other drugs. Talking about rifting places, well we know that you can use both magic and tech to accomplish this in Rifts.

Overall tech simulates most things magic does in it's flavor. I know you said no tech cant garuntee say 2d6 melee's or do alot of the things instantly but that is the flavor of tech. The point is the flavor of tech and magic are different hence you don't want them doing the effect the exact same way, but tech can replicate magic effects and does so with the flavor of tech.
Also your group can have all of that tech and use as needed without the limit of having tech points that the need to spend to activate said tech, nor having to wait to push the nuke button nor get interrupted. Magic on the other hand is much more limited in this way.

Overall i see tech having the advantage in most cases over magic, but situations can vary and magic guy will always have access to his "tech" but the tech guy can be stripped of most of his short of cyber/full conversion. But then again how often do adventures find themselves in that situation.

[Killer Cyborg]

Really, I think they might be better off doing away with saving throws entirely, at least as they are now.
Take the active defense that is the basis of the combat system already, and extend it to magic (and other areas) as well.

If a spell has a physical attack (fire ball, lightning, etc), then it can be dodged or, in some cases, parried.
If the spell is a mental attack, then the defender should be able to make a mental defense roll to counter it.
If the spell is an intangible attack on the body (like Death Word), then the defender should be able to make a physical defense roll against it.

The net effect would be similar to saves, but more dynamic, more in line with the rest of the system, and more realistic.

I really like that idea. Instead of casters increasing spell strength they'd just earn a bonus to the "attack" with said spell. That's a mighty fine idea!

I don't think all things have been taken into consideration. The more you try to unify rules, the more you take away from uniqueness of different classes and combat styles. Other rpg's have tried to 'moderize' their rules in later editions only to often complete destroy the essence the game once had (*cough* D&D 4th edition *gag*).

I understand what you're saying, and I definitely don't want 4.0.
On the other hand, 3.x was pretty awesome, and one of the cool things about it was that it was very, very easy to learn.
I kept asking the DM, "How do I __________?"
And he'd say, "Roll a d20."

The question is, does the current system of saves actually provide anything to the feel of the game when it comes to magic?
Is there something important about casting a spell, then hoping that the person rolls low enough that the spell works?

For me, that doesn't provide anything. It's a passive defense, like Armor Class, only for some reason the person acting isn't the person making the die roll.

The issue is the magic becomes too weak compared against defenses. This can be addressed with adding more spell strength and changing magic to become exactly like gun fighting doesn't truly fix the issue.

It wouldn't be exactly like gun fighting.
I'm not talking about making aimed shots.
I'm not talking about firing wild.
I'm not talking about bursts or sprays (though I have in the past).
I'm not talking about making called shots.
I'm not talking about the -10 rule.

All I'm talking about is an active attack roll, and an active defense roll.
The "active" part is kind of important, because it's what would make me feel that my character was doing something to resist the magic, instead of the spell just fizzling for no particular reason.

It likely creates far more issues. What makes it different at that point?

-All the stuff I mention above.
-The effects of the attack (magic net vs. laser blast)
-PPE vs. Ammo use
-Spell casting time vs. the time it takes to shoot.
-The possibility to fire paired firearms, versus the impossibility of casting two simultaneous spells.

And probably some other stuff that doesn't instantly spring to mind.

Why does it still have far more restrictions and costs yet should follow the exact same rules as regular combat?

It doesn't.
Though I wouldn't mind seeing some of the other restrictions loosened up.
I've always thought that if the damage of a spell is jacked-up 100x, the range and duration should see some kind of increase as well.

How would revamps of normal combat then effect magic?

They wouldn't.

I certainly don't want magic thrown into yet another house rule ridden mechanic. Frankly our compaigns magic tweaks are far simpler than our tweaks on normal combat.

Magic got screwed over by the Two Attacks For Living.
It got screwed over by the Mage Armor rule.
It got screwed over by the -10 rule.
It got screwed over by the increase in races/classes with high PE bonuses.
It got screwed over by spells taking more than one attack.
It got screwed over by spells being able to be interrupted.

It's always been a house-rule-ridden mechanic.
You might not have had to tweak it much, but most others have. The rules in RUE came about because so many people were using house-rules (PPE Channeling, for example) to streamline and speed up combat.

[Damian Magecraft]

The question is, does the current system of saves actually provide anything to the feel of the game when it comes to magic?
Is there something important about casting a spell, then hoping that the person rolls low enough that the spell works?

For me, that doesn't provide anything. It's a passive defense, like Armor Class, only for some reason the person acting isn't the person making the die roll.

The issue is the magic becomes too weak compared against defenses. This can be addressed with adding more spell strength and changing magic to become exactly like gun fighting doesn't truly fix the issue.

It wouldn't be exactly like gun fighting.
I'm not talking about making aimed shots.
I'm not talking about firing wild.
I'm not talking about bursts or sprays (though I have in the past).
I'm not talking about making called shots.
I'm not talking about the -10 rule.

All I'm talking about is an active attack roll, and an active defense roll.
The "active" part is kind of important, because it's what would make me feel that my character was doing something to resist the magic, instead of the spell just fizzling for no particular reason.

I like the Idea of active casting vs active defense...
But would that not then require some way for the caster to "influence" the "attack" roll?
As well as the converse?
from what I have observed we will be right back where we started if that aspect is not approached very carefully.

Why does it still have far more restrictions and costs yet should follow the exact same rules as regular combat?

It doesn't.
Though I wouldn't mind seeing some of the other restrictions loosened up.
I've always thought that if the damage of a spell is jacked-up 100x, the range and duration should see some kind of increase as well.

agreed.

I certainly don't want magic thrown into yet another house rule ridden mechanic. Frankly our compaigns magic tweaks are far simpler than our tweaks on normal combat.

Magic got screwed over by the Two Attacks For Living. This was fixed in RUE (not well but...)
It got screwed over by the Mage Armor rule. I liked the old 1e PF rules as well...
It got screwed over by the -10 rule. an overcomplicated fix to a minor problem... it needs ditched
It got screwed over by the increase in races/classes with high PE bonuses. agreed
It got screwed over by spells taking more than one attack. I do not see it that way but that is just me
It got screwed over by spells being able to be interrupted. one reason I insist that multi-action melee attacks should be able to be interrupted as well.

It's always been a house-rule-ridden mechanic.
You might not have had to tweak it much, but most others have. The rules in RUE came about because so many people were using house-rules (PPE Channeling, for example) to streamline and speed up combat.

[Killer Cyborg]

I kept asking the DM, "How do I __________?"
And he'd say, "Roll a d20."

and you were complaining before about '4e makes everything feel the same!'

It does.
Yet somehow, 3.x did not, even though it simplified everything to work off of one basic principle.

RIFTS could do with the kind of clear editing and terminology that 4e has, while still keeping PPE, ISP and Melee Attack actions as the different ways of spending resources.

Agreed.
It's the rules of 4.0 that I dislike, not the clarity.

[Shark_Force]

heck, to be honest, D&D4e was not completely without good ideas either. i still don't want to adapt the system hole hog. i've played 4e before. it's boring. it's a decently good miniatures strategy/tactics game, and it's a sucktastic game for making me feel like i'm playing a role. it's got terrible immersion, most of the people i've found who play the game have an obsession that they follow only the exact rules as written, as if they were some sort of holy text, and god help you if you want to add any new ideas of your own.

now granted, some of this is likely colored by my experience. then again, that's what experience is for; if i don't base anything off of my past experiences, then i would just keep making the same mistakes over and over (and would still be playing a game that, frankly, bores me unless i play it purely as a miniatures combat game where something abstract is supposed to happen in between fights). i particularly prefer to ignore the fact that skill challenges even exist, since most of the time they feel like painfully forced methods of trying to pretend like the system was designed to do more than let you have small-scale miniature battles.

but definitely, i can agree with some of the design concepts of the system. especially the ones they said were design concepts, then proceeded to (imo) ignore.

that said, i would rather apply the useful concepts from other systems, more than anything else.

a unified mechanic for most things (if not everything) would be *really* nice. i don't care whether it's percentile dice, a d20, rolling multiple D6's, or hitting a spinner and seeing where it ends up pointing - it would be nice to see a single mechanic used to determine success or failure in tasks.

but then, at that point, we're not talking about revising the magic system... we're talking about redoing rifts. from scratch, pretty much.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'd answer your many many scatter points Killer Cyborg but you tend to answer with questions and statements without explanation or consideration of alternative interpretation.

I always look at things from more than one angle.
If you think there's an interpretation of something that I've missed, feel free to say what it is.

Most of what I said here covers many points anyway.

Actually, I wasn't going to respond to your post at all, because it didn't seem relevant to anything that I've said here.
The only thing that caught my eye was that you mentioned me by name.

The rest of your post seems pretty irrelevant.

People also seen to be hung up on magic needing to shoot out like a projectile and wanting it to share it's mechanics when it is often entirely different.

Not that I've noticed.