Rifts World Book Antarctica

[Jorel]

I voted Aliens vs Predator, because when I started playing 20+ years ago, I stated them out and had them in Cheyenne Mt., but that was before most of the books that exist now were written. And way before the movie, which was so far astray from the original source material of the comics.

[glitterboy2098]

Seems Glitterboy pointed out the facts to you Nightmask you are just choosing to ignore them, but have fun with that.

Estimates and theories, not facts. 'Probably' and 'may' aren't facts, and you can continue to insist that they're facts just to be contrary as much as you like but it won't make it so.

the facts i quoted are based on very solid information. the amount of ice is known, which gives us the amount of water it produces when melted. the topography of earth is well known, allowing them to determain how much the oceans will rise and what parts of the coastlines will change.

the enviromental effects can be calculated based on known behaviors of the currents, weather, and ecology. study of prehistory shows us what happenes when similar events occured in the past, as well.

the only questionable fact in the post i made was the amount of axial shift being predicted. we've only measured minute changes in it due to things like volcanic eruptions, so the formulas are a little hazy in accuracy. but there would be a axial shift, that much is fact.

Next On your the Ice caps could melt thing, Fill a glass of water up and drop a few ice cubes in it, and tell me what happens to the water

thats a good analogy for the arctic, where the ice cap sits on an ocean. but the antarctic sits on a solid continent, and doesn't displace water. if it's ice melts, it will cause a sea level rise.

If you think a none Frozen Antarctica (keep in mind this is just a theory to make it a playable place

you mean hypothesis. a hypothesis is a proposed mechanism that help create experiments. a theory is a set of explanations that most closely matches the facts discovered by experimentation.

you've been talking about a hypothesis of "what if antarctica was free of ice". we've been pointing out the facts that such an approach won't work due to ecological, atmospheric, oceanographic, and climatilogical realities that exist on our earth, and thus far have not been changed in canon RIFTS earth. and if they are changed in one place, the ripple effects would drastically alter the setting away from established canon.

Considering how a huge chunk of the east coast of america is underwater, it sounds like some of the ice has already melted. Maybe enough for a mile around all the ley lines in antartica? Ta-da, now it makes sense (if you stretch your imagination. And if you cant do that, what are you trying to play rifts for anyways?)

actually, you have to expect some sea level rise when you suddenly have a continent the size of north america sitting in them iddle of the atlantic ocean. the sea level has only raised by about 50 to 75 feet, which is fairly consistant with that much displacement. and remember that in canon, the arctic ice cap and greenland have actually increased in size, and earth is experiancing sever winters. (see rifts canada) plus we know earth entered a mini-ice age after the cataclysm, with nearly a century of extremely cool conditions (see rifts warlords of russia)

so if anything, the ice in antarctica should be thicker than now.

[The Beast]

Considering how a huge chunk of the east coast of america is underwater, it sounds like some of the ice has already melted.

No, that's from Atlantis returning.

[dark brandon]

Dragons

Ice magic

Bio-domes

Pauly shore.

/thread.

[Killer Cyborg]

I think an Antarctica book is emblematic of more than one issue here with Palladium.

Agreed.

Dinosaur Swamps has dinosaurs in it, and you can walk to it, and there would be pre-rifts ruins there like most other places.

Antarctica?

Finally, a worldbook on the most inaccessible place on the Earth's surface, with the least reason for anybody to go there, and an environment that cannot sustain flora or fauna!

Why?
Because the fans have been clamoring for it?
Because it's important to the setting of Rifts Earth?

What's the hook?
Are we supposed to be curious about how the unchanging land of ice has changed since the rifts showed up?
Are we supposed to wonder how Palladium will handle the remnants of previous cultures that thrived there?

What's the point?
Just to crank out yet another unnecessary world-book on a remote land that our characters don't even know exists?

IF, for some reason, they really, really, really wanted to write a book on that region, how about warming us up to the idea (pun intended) first?
Start dropping hints here or there in different books for a while.
Have a race of aliens/D-Bees/demons start showing up in other book, and eventually reveal that they're coming from Antarctica.

As it stands, I really can't see any reason to care.

COULD Antarctica make a good setting?
Sure.
As Dead Boy said, it's a blank slate. Anything could be there.
But the flipside of that is that Anything could be anywhere else instead.
And it probably should be.
Preferably some place that we have some reason for wondering about or caring about, other than just "well, THIS spot on Rifts Earth hasn't been filled with power armor and d-bees yet...."

[Killer Cyborg]

Considering how a huge chunk of the east coast of america is underwater, it sounds like some of the ice has already melted.

Yup.
Not to mention that stuff doesn't just come IN through Rifts, it can leave too.
So the Earth's water supply isn't a closed system anymore.

Also, there's the aquifers.
Coastal aquifers already draw in sea water if the fresh water is pumped out too fast, but I'm pretty sure that inland aquifers just end up empty.
Which means that they can fill back up, if the sea levels rise enough, which means that they could absorb some of the rising ocean water (though I don't know how much).

Basically, there are too many factors to say what would really happen, so there is some degree of license for writers to play with.

[jaymz]

they should make it. It's the last great continent and I'd love to see what all things popped up from it. Being a
HUGE Yautja Predator fan it would be sweet if they got the rights to make an RCC for them. One of my friends and I created a RCC for it when I first played Rifts and I've seen about 3 others on various sites and they all vary. It would be nice to see a set RCC for it and the ALien Species (Possible new threat to the Rifts World). I can also see various types of Mutant Penquins and Seals in the book as well as Lost Civilization Ruins re-emerging and some other great D-bees and monsters.

Remove magic from the Raithenor and voila , Predators

[Balabanto]

I'm all for going pulp with it.

Weird jungles under the ice.

A city of magic that inspired the legends of Alice in Wonderland, Shangri-La, and all those other fantastic locations.

Oh. And penguin men. Warrk!

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Basically, there are too many factors to say what would really happen, so there is some degree of license for writers to play with.

Exactly.

~ Josh

[Failgoat]

the omega zone!
buried deep under the ice of antarctica, the last ditch super secret super safehouse facility the size of a small country, with delegates, politicians, leaders and diplomats and technical staff from most of the countries that existed before the cataclysm. they have all the state of the art tech of the golden age at their fingertips, theyv just been biding their time...until now!
muahahahahaha

[Nightmask]

the omega zone!
buried deep under the ice of antarctica, the last ditch super secret super safehouse facility the size of a small country, with delegates, politicians, leaders and diplomats and technical staff from most of the countries that existed before the cataclysm. they have all the state of the art tech of the golden age at their fingertips, theyv just been biding their time...until now!
muahahahahaha

Given there is an actual facility for storing samples of all the world's plants (and maybe even genetics of animals as well) in someplace like Norway the idea that there was an Antarctic refuge like that isn't so unbelievable in Rifts. Whether a single country or a coalition created it as a fail-safe in case of cataclysm it's quite in keeping with things. Pre-Rifts technology might even be able to build the facility beneath the ice on the existing land mass beneath rather than having it built on/in the ice. Would be interesting to see such a group just starting to come out and attempting to restore the world under their auspices/beliefs using their full stores of Pre-Rifts technology and anything they may have developed since then.

[Franfrickle]

they should make it. It's the last great continent and I'd love to see what all things popped up from it. Being a
HUGE Yautja Predator fan it would be sweet if they got the rights to make an RCC for them. One of my friends and I created a RCC for it when I first played Rifts and I've seen about 3 others on various sites and they all vary. It would be nice to see a set RCC for it and the ALien Species (Possible new threat to the Rifts World). I can also see various types of Mutant Penquins and Seals in the book as well as Lost Civilization Ruins re-emerging and some other great D-bees and monsters.

Remove magic from the Raithenor and voila , Predators

I personally don't agree with ya. Although they resemble them physically more then other races and have similar aspects of weaponry thats about the only resemblence, the whole Symbiotic Armor and what it does completely ruins what a Predator is about not to mention the Raithenors are pretty much no better then sup'd up merciless killers. I personally feel the Lanotaur is a way closer match not counting the Psionic and Magic abilities and a few physical mainly the tail, because of the way they hunt and the twisted sense of honor and fair combat they have. If you want PM me and I'll send ya the RCC my first Rifts GM and I made a few years back. It's about as close as two overly-nerdy Predator fans could come and still have it be somewhat mediocre so it wont overbalance gameplay.

Side-note, I want to see battles between Mutant Penguin Barbarians and the Legions of Advanced Mutated Krill. I just think it would be F#$^*&@ Hilarious and it is Science Fiction/Fantasy were damned near anything and everything is possible. Oh, and I'm sure that who-ever is writing this book if it is being written has already taken into consideration that they can't necessarily write something to create the effect of it completely altering the rest of Rifts Earth. For the most part the main damage has been done so I'm sure he/she will use a little common sense and work it so it supports most pre-existing events. But this is just my 2 cents worth what do I know.

[Vrykolas2k]

I think it should take more from H.P Lovecraft's "Mountains of Madness" instead of Aliens vs. Predator...

[Balabanto]

I think it should take more from H.P Lovecraft's "Mountains of Madness" instead of Aliens vs. Predator...

I think we should ditch both of those. Really, the idea of it being Cthulhu all over again just steams me. I love that stuff to death, but it doesn't belong in Rifts. We don't need anymore creepiness for a while. We have Madhaven.

[Nightmask]

I think it should take more from H.P Lovecraft's "Mountains of Madness" instead of Aliens vs. Predator...

I think we should ditch both of those. Really, the idea of it being Cthulhu all over again just steams me. I love that stuff to death, but it doesn't belong in Rifts. We don't need anymore creepiness for a while. We have Madhaven.

I have to agree, when a setting ends up just endless creepy and evil triumphant I just lose all interest (like I did with the Dragonlance setting, heck Dark Suns was a cheerier setting with a more positive outlook on things).

[Dead Boy]

What the?!? ... First it was all out nuclear war, then it was a rift experiment at Lone Star, now the cause is pretty much "bad luck"?

It was never an experiment at Lone Star, don't know how you ever got that idea. Lone Star simply had the misfortune of starting up its Dimensional Gateway equipment.

I admit, I miss-recalled that one. Momentarily thought it played a larger role when I typed that. My bad.

However, you are wrong about the rest.

Here's another citing for ya that tells a different tale.

"Nuclear holocaust ignited the destruction of the world as we know it, but it was not the primary instrument of destruction. The sudden destruction of a billion people triggered a surge in the ley lines." RMB pg 7

A limited nuclear engagement is still a holocaust when you're targeting population centers and in the Golden Age of Man one can imagine even poorer countries had much higher populations than we have on Earth today, and once you killed enough people at the wrong time the chain reaction is started and the fresh deaths just end up feeding things as it runs out of control.

You're trying to play semantics when the fact of the matter is Chaos Earth says the "limited exchange" caused the deaths of only "millions" compounded with a rather unusual set of circumstances triggered the reemergence of the ley lines, causing the deaths of billions in the chaos that resulted from that. RMB said a "nuclear holocaust" caused the deaths of "billions", and it was those deaths he brought the ley lines back with a vengeance.

It's a retcon!!! There's no other way to reconcile the discrepancies. Kev or the original writer wanted to retool the circumstances that lead to the uniqueness of Rifts Earth, and make it so not every world that has a mega catastrophe end up the same.

“To compound the danger, secret military satellites interpreted the activity on the surface of Earth as war and responded, as programmed, by attacking military targets, both on the planet below and in space” MiO pg 56 (though there is some ambiguous language about the extent of the nuclear weapons’ contribution to triggering the apocalypse below.)

They compounded things by adding to the death toll, killing people who would have otherwise survived the Cataclysm, the event itself was already in a runaway condition and even if the satellites hadn't done anything what happened would have still happened.

Doesn't matter, and you're missing the point on that one. Even with the Chaos Earth retcon of there only being an initial nuclear exchange in South America, MiO's entry is not undone nor contradicted given that it states that the HK Satellites of the day fired their nukes at numerous military targets when they interpreted the eruption of the ley lines and rifts as war. We know they didn't fire particle beams, x-ray lasers, or rail guns because those weapon systems have way too short of a range to reach the earth. They had to be city-buster nukes the size of, or larger than, the ones in CS Navy in order to take out entire military bases. And since military complexes can be found all around the world, then we must assume the missiles fell all around the world... except Antarctica since their outposts are allegedly purely scientific in nature. Plus it's a real hassle to put satellites in polar-crossing orbits due to the scarcity of the resource they represent.

Hence, that part of the scenario still survives.

Your google-fu is weak.

Mind if I sig that?

By all means!

[johnkretzer]

Rather see alot of other books before this...like Rifts: Lazlo or Rifts D-Bees of Europe.

[Tiree]

I actually want to see the book.

I can totally see it being linked to New Navy as a potential port or colony.

[MASTERMIND]

I would buy it.

I guess I am in the minority.

[Nightmask]

What the?!? ... First it was all out nuclear war, then it was a rift experiment at Lone Star, now the cause is pretty much "bad luck"?

It was never an experiment at Lone Star, don't know how you ever got that idea. Lone Star simply had the misfortune of starting up its Dimensional Gateway equipment.

I admit, I miss-recalled that one. Momentarily thought it played a larger role when I typed that. My bad.

However, you are wrong about the rest.

Meanwhile I believe you to be wrong, you're taking a few words and ascribing them different levels of import and not viewing the context of things correctly.

[keir451]

The concept of an Antartics book is rather a bad idea, aside from ice and penguins (and the currently inaccessible) supposed resources that no-one is sure about there's not much there. Even if you allow for Rifting activity the LOCATION of Antartica in a area that is nearly perpetual clos anything Rifted in is going to be frozen fast.
As for all these comments on how high the water would rise, well, they're all wrong. If ALL the ice on the planet melted THEN and ONLY then would the sea level rise and it would only do so by about 5-6ft. and considering the sheer level of salinity in the oceans the melting of the Antartic ice cap wouldn't even put a dent in it.
http://www.infowars.com/ice-cap-alarmists-cherry-pick-science-to-fit-carbon-emissions-theory/

Ice Cap Alarmists Cherry Pick Science To Fit Carbon Emissions ...
... said Sarah Das, a scientist at the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute in the US. ... may be misinterpreted by some as the ice cap or a significant ...

[Failgoat]

so much dismissal for real world reasons. i agree the more "realistic" a fantasy realm feels to me, the more i enjoy it, but its still fantasy.
as long as the concepts are new, not a rehash of other cold environments, some new classes races factions, whatever...i'd probably be interested. its kinda weird how the golden age pre-cataclysm world had so many things we cannot fathom today, yet is deemed impossible to put some kind of colony, scientific study thing, under some ice. we gots eba that can go into outer space but watch out for that cold brrrrrrr....

[Failgoat]

or for that matter, the "id rather see a world book for this area of N. America"
i understand that perspective.
there is a flip side to that coin.
"theres already 10 WB's for that continent, can we please continue detailing other parts?"
mind you, i dont really fall into any of these categories, just more of an open mind to the whole prospect of world creation.

[Nightmask]

so much dismissal for real world reasons. i agree the more "realistic" a fantasy realm feels to me, the more i enjoy it, but its still fantasy.
as long as the concepts are new, not a rehash of other cold environments, some new classes races factions, whatever...i'd probably be interested. its kinda weird how the golden age pre-cataclysm world had so many things we cannot fathom today, yet is deemed impossible to put some kind of colony, scientific study thing, under some ice. we gots eba that can go into outer space but watch out for that cold brrrrrrr....

I don't quite understand that insisting too much on reality for a setting that's patently not reality. It's not like Recon where it's supposed to be more real world, it's a world of super-science and sorcery (I wonder how many will recognize that reference). You've things like the Lone Star station and its fabulous knowledge of genetics that only a few groups have vaster knowledge of (Gene-Splicers, After The Bomb characters with genetics background, Gene-Tech, a few HU super-villains), and the impressive Pre-Rifts space stations to name a few. A base or several in Antarctica isn't so hard to believe in the face of that. In the time before the coming of the Rifts they could have easily decided that it was time to spread their influence there rather than leave it alone.

Humans are like that they keep going out and trying to conquer new environments and prove themselves (else we'd have never had the spreading across this planet like we already have and the creation of the Space program). There are reasons both scientific and human nature driven to set up shop in Antarctica (although right now I'm wondering what they'd have done with Greenland, since it would be a tad easier to make use of).

[Failgoat]

so much dismissal for real world reasons. i agree the more "realistic" a fantasy realm feels to me, the more i enjoy it, but its still fantasy.
as long as the concepts are new, not a rehash of other cold environments, some new classes races factions, whatever...i'd probably be interested. its kinda weird how the golden age pre-cataclysm world had so many things we cannot fathom today, yet is deemed impossible to put some kind of colony, scientific study thing, under some ice. we gots eba that can go into outer space but watch out for that cold brrrrrrr....

I don't quite understand that insisting too much on reality for a setting that's patently not reality. It's not like Recon where it's supposed to be more real world, it's a world of super-science and sorcery (I wonder how many will recognize that reference). You've things like the Lone Star station and its fabulous knowledge of genetics that only a few groups have vaster knowledge of (Gene-Splicers, After The Bomb characters with genetics background, Gene-Tech, a few HU super-villains), and the impressive Pre-Rifts space stations to name a few. A base or several in Antarctica isn't so hard to believe in the face of that. In the time before the coming of the Rifts they could have easily decided that it was time to spread their influence there rather than leave it alone.

Humans are like that they keep going out and trying to conquer new environments and prove themselves (else we'd have never had the spreading across this planet like we already have and the creation of the Space program). There are reasons both scientific and human nature driven to set up shop in Antarctica (although right now I'm wondering what they'd have done with Greenland, since it would be a tad easier to make use of).

ya greenland would be easier.
what got me thinking about "the omega zone" (see one of my earlier posts in this thread) was looking at the map of antarctica and how all those different countries have claims, and even in the claimed lands you have stations from a variety of countries set up, and the map says they are year-round stations. seems like the blueprint for a U.N. sanctioned secret safehouse for reps is there.

[Franfrickle]

shooting war? with what weapons? snowballs? the entire continet is weapons free..and not likely to change, since there is nothing worth fighting over.

Ok I've been watching this for a while with quite a bit of amusement and been trying to let it play out, but I did see this one statement that I'd like to clear up. Antartica is not weapons free. The countries that do have a military presence there are however under treaty to not test military weapons which for the most part refers to nukes and other W.o.M.D. that are going to effect the ecosystem and violate the peaceful pressence agreement. "Note: I am not quoting the Article 1 directly of the Antartic Treaty, this is written in my own wording and if you want to know exactly what it says feel free to look it up yerself. I'm not writing it all here." I am a prior service member of the U.S. Army and my Military Occupational Specialty aka M.O.S. is the highest echelon of maintanence for Weapons/Armament Systems specifically in the fields of research, development & testing as well as covering everything below such as handling mods, repairs and troubleshooting with a range covering from the smallest caliber pistols to the largest armament systems ie. tanks, paladins, and some missile platforms, and everything inbetween. The reason I'm posting this, and no I'm not violating anything declared classified its accessible knowledge, is that the military outposts there have a VERY narrow list of authorized MOS's allowed a tour of duty there. Mine being one of that select few. Now why on the Gods green earth would they have slots in that very narrow list for Soldiers of my specialization if there weren't any weapons or weapons research going on down there?

Heck I even tried going, just sadly didn't have enough time in service at the time and it's a long waiting period unless selected and assigned there. Oh and don't forget the most important thing, This is Rifts Earth which damned near everything is based around Science Fiction & Fantasy with little relation to facts.

[Nightmask]

ya greenland would be easier.
what got me thinking about "the omega zone" (see one of my earlier posts in this thread) was looking at the map of antarctica and how all those different countries have claims, and even in the claimed lands you have stations from a variety of countries set up, and the map says they are year-round stations. seems like the blueprint for a U.N. sanctioned secret safehouse for reps is there.

Is there much coverage of Alaska? A thriving civilization could exist there as it likely wouldn't have been hit as hard by the Cataclysm with the low population to help feed the event and for a small civilization the access to crude oil would allow it to continue functioning even at a drop in tech level down to our levels due to problems likely with creating more modern power sources like nuclear.

Greenland would be a better choice if you were going to do an arctic setting, we've maintained bases there for nearly a century now. With Rifts more advanced technology they could overcome the hurdles we've got to run a full-sized self-sustaining base.

[keir451]

so much dismissal for real world reasons. i agree the more "realistic" a fantasy realm feels to me, the more i enjoy it, but its still fantasy.
as long as the concepts are new, not a rehash of other cold environments, some new classes races factions, whatever...i'd probably be interested. its kinda weird how the golden age pre-cataclysm world had so many things we cannot fathom today, yet is deemed impossible to put some kind of colony, scientific study thing, under some ice. we gots eba that can go into outer space but watch out for that cold brrrrrrr....

I don't quite understand that insisting too much on reality for a setting that's patently not reality. It's not like Recon where it's supposed to be more real world, it's a world of super-science and sorcery (I wonder how many will recognize that reference). You've things like the Lone Star station and its fabulous knowledge of genetics that only a few groups have vaster knowledge of (Gene-Splicers, After The Bomb characters with genetics background, Gene-Tech, a few HU super-villains), and the impressive Pre-Rifts space stations to name a few. A base or several in Antarctica isn't so hard to believe in the face of that. In the time before the coming of the Rifts they could have easily decided that it was time to spread their influence there rather than leave it alone.

Humans are like that they keep going out and trying to conquer new environments and prove themselves (else we'd have never had the spreading across this planet like we already have and the creation of the Space program). There are reasons both scientific and human nature driven to set up shop in Antarctica (although right now I'm wondering what they'd have done with Greenland, since it would be a tad easier to make use of).

The thing is that so much of Rifts has its basis in reality(with the realtive exception of Magic and Psionics), or at least in a potential reality not too far down the line. I find it easier to base things off of what really exists, and then flesh out from there. That way no-one can say "That's not possible" or "That's not real".
Now having said that I agree that with the futuristic tech of Rifts/Chaos Earth it is possible to have an outpost or base of some sort, tho' you'd still have to deal with being effectively isolated from the rest of the world.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Is there much coverage of Alaska? A thriving civilization could exist there as it likely wouldn't have been hit as hard by the Cataclysm with the low population to help feed the event and for a small civilization the access to crude oil would allow it to continue functioning even at a drop in tech level down to our levels due to problems likely with creating more modern power sources like nuclear.

There is a Native American Preserve in Alaska - called Fort Alaska (great imagination there..)

Anyway it's actually a submersible pre-rifts military base that was "intentionally icebound"

[Nightmask]

The thing is that so much of Rifts has its basis in reality(with the realtive exception of Magic and Psionics), or at least in a potential reality not too far down the line. I find it easier to base things off of what really exists, and then flesh out from there. That way no-one can say "That's not possible" or "That's not real".
Now having said that I agree that with the futuristic tech of Rifts/Chaos Earth it is possible to have an outpost or base of some sort, tho' you'd still have to deal with being effectively isolated from the rest of the world.

It's not that close to reality, just from the various aliens we've seen. The tech while some is considered possible isn't a given and some is way beyond what we see as possible (like some of the disagreements on the viability of plasma weapons or vibro-blades). While a certain inclusion of reality is necessary because it uses our world as a start point one generally has to stop going 'but that's not reality' when reality does not really hold sway. One must turn that feature off and accept the basic realities of the setting in question, if it says that dragons and demons exist you must accept that as reality and that they can handle things in ways natural creatures can't. There's too much 'that wouldn't happen in reality' being tossed around in an RPG where our reality is not their reality and it supports things our reality doesn't and one must just accept this.

There certainly is reason to consider the isolation involved in an Antarctic base, it was bad enough for my father in Greenland back in the 60s let alone a total isolation where even for a base large enough to be self-sustaining everyone's going to end up knowing everyone else and could easily become xenophobic (like the Moon colony) fearing everything not of them. How they'd react to actual non-human aliens ends up a big story point as well, they might make the Nazi-ish empire of the CS look practically open and tolerant in comparison.

[Nightmask]

Is there much coverage of Alaska? A thriving civilization could exist there as it likely wouldn't have been hit as hard by the Cataclysm with the low population to help feed the event and for a small civilization the access to crude oil would allow it to continue functioning even at a drop in tech level down to our levels due to problems likely with creating more modern power sources like nuclear.

There is a Native American Preserve in Alaska - called Fort Alaska (great imagination there..)

Anyway it's actually a submersible pre-rifts military base that was "intentionally icebound"

So not much mention of Alaska outside of that?

[Dustin Fireblade]

Is there much coverage of Alaska? A thriving civilization could exist there as it likely wouldn't have been hit as hard by the Cataclysm with the low population to help feed the event and for a small civilization the access to crude oil would allow it to continue functioning even at a drop in tech level down to our levels due to problems likely with creating more modern power sources like nuclear.

There is a Native American Preserve in Alaska - called Fort Alaska (great imagination there..)

Anyway it's actually a submersible pre-rifts military base that was "intentionally icebound"

So not much mention of Alaska outside of that?

It's about a paragraph total I believe in Spirit West, but yeah that's pretty much it as far as I know.

[Nightmask]

It's about a paragraph total I believe in Spirit West, but yeah that's pretty much it as far as I know.

Poor Alaska, even in a fantasy game it goes lost and forgotten in spite of its potential. Meanwhile that restored oil refinery and pumping station in South America got more than a few paragraphs covering it. Seems like Rifts: Alaska would be more useful than Rifts: Antarctica.

[keir451]

The thing is that so much of Rifts has its basis in reality(with the realtive exception of Magic and Psionics), or at least in a potential reality not too far down the line. I find it easier to base things off of what really exists, and then flesh out from there. That way no-one can say "That's not possible" or "That's not real".
Now having said that I agree that with the futuristic tech of Rifts/Chaos Earth it is possible to have an outpost or base of some sort, tho' you'd still have to deal with being effectively isolated from the rest of the world.

It's not that close to reality, just from the various aliens we've seen. The tech while some is considered possible isn't a given and some is way beyond what we see as possible (like some of the disagreements on the viability of plasma weapons or vibro-blades). While a certain inclusion of reality is necessary because it uses our world as a start point one generally has to stop going 'but that's not reality' when reality does not really hold sway. One must turn that feature off and accept the basic realities of the setting in question, if it says that dragons and demons exist you must accept that as reality and that they can handle things in ways natural creatures can't. There's too much 'that wouldn't happen in reality' being tossed around in an RPG where our reality is not their reality and it supports things our reality doesn't and one must just accept this.

There certainly is reason to consider the isolation involved in an Antarctic base, it was bad enough for my father in Greenland back in the 60s let alone a total isolation where even for a base large enough to be self-sustaining everyone's going to end up knowing everyone else and could easily become xenophobic (like the Moon colony) fearing everything not of them. How they'd react to actual non-human aliens ends up a big story point as well, they might make the Nazi-ish empire of the CS look practically open and tolerant in comparison.

No real argument there. I completely accept the presence of Demons and Monsters from other dimensions as well as the presence of magic and psionics (whic if you want to get technical could be defined by using quantum theory equations). I just add a greater dash of reality (and physics) that makes the game more interesting for me & my gamers.
In the past (during the 90's) I've been stuck on Naval warships while on deployment in the Pacific and while we probably had access to better "distraction materials" (I had all my Rifts books w/me) I can appreciate being isolated from the rest of the world for fairly extended periods of time. Xenophobia or some other from of psychosis is certainly a potential problem.

[Carl Gleba]

I would buy it.

I guess I am in the minority.

No I will purchase it as well. The job of a writer is to make the ordinary - extraordinary.

Kevin and crew are impressed so that makes me intrigued by what this books offers.

If it gives me more adventure ideas and opportunities I'm all for it and thats what I expect it will do.

[Dead Boy]

However, you are wrong about the rest.

Meanwhile I believe you to be wrong, you're taking a few words and ascribing them different levels of import and not viewing the context of things correctly.

A few words? I quoted the whole darn passage!

Here's what it boils down to: Chaos Earth, circa 2003, clearly states that in the nuclear exchange "millions of lives perished in a heartbeat" (CE 13); the Rifts Main Book, circa 1990, says because of the use of nuclear arms, "the sudden destruction of a billion people triggered a surge in the ley lines." (RMB 7) These are direct quotes straight form the respective books, both in the same context of the number of lives lost as a result of the use of nuclear arms.

"Millions" (CE) vs "Billions" (RMB)

How much clearer do you need it to be? It's a retcon, plain and simple.

[Nightmask]

However, you are wrong about the rest.

Meanwhile I believe you to be wrong, you're taking a few words and ascribing them different levels of import and not viewing the context of things correctly.

A few words? I quoted the whole darn passage!

Here's what it boils down to: Chaos Earth, circa 2003, clearly states that in the nuclear exchange "millions of lives perished in a heartbeat" (CE 13); the Rifts Main Book, circa 1990, says because of the use of nuclear arms, "the sudden destruction of a billion people triggered a surge in the ley lines." (RMB 7) These are direct quotes straight form the respective books, both in the same context of the number of lives lost as a result of the use of nuclear arms.

"Millions" (CE) vs "Billions" (RMB)

How much clearer do you need it to be? It's a retcon, plain and simple.

Or it's an error and they meant million not billion, so not a retcon at all. Someone realized 'hey billion is way too much for a limited exchange, that should have been million' and they corrected it. Hardly the first time and certainly won't be the last a simple error like that has occurred.

[Balabanto]

Or the population of the world increased so dramatically in those ten years that they had to change the number in order to maintain common sense parity.

Do you really, really think people are going to stop having sex? By 2061, the world's population will be 24.2 billion, barring a sudden wave of intelligence coming over the third world and realizing they don't need ten kids apiece.

We think of a family as a stable unit at four, which means X is a constant number. But many cultures think of a family in the primitive sense of being yeoman farmers who need a kid to milk the cows, a kid to plow the fields, a bunch of kids to harvest stuff, etc. So these third world families, that have six kids or so, they balance that out, efffectively double the population of the globe.

Think that World War III will be fought over land? Think again.

World War III will be fought over water and food.

[Nightmask]

Or the population of the world increased so dramatically in those ten years that they had to change the number in order to maintain common sense parity.

Do you really, really think people are going to stop having sex? By 2061, the world's population will be 24.2 billion, barring a sudden wave of intelligence coming over the third world and realizing they don't need ten kids apiece.

We think of a family as a stable unit at four, which means X is a constant number. But many cultures think of a family in the primitive sense of being yeoman farmers who need a kid to milk the cows, a kid to plow the fields, a bunch of kids to harvest stuff, etc. So these third world families, that have six kids or so, they balance that out, efffectively double the population of the globe.

Think that World War III will be fought over land? Think again.

World War III will be fought over water and food.

And you really think billions of people are going to be packed into a couple small South American countries? Also do remember it's the Golden Age of Man, and population growth could have easily been stabilized by then rather than continuing to expand. Really have to consider that possibility since in nearly a hundred years the idea of everyone holding that primitive 'got to breed' mindset is debatable, especially in a fantasy game. Just because they're third world countries doesn't meant that they're OUR kind of third world countries.

[Nightmask]

Who are you to say that Dragons have never existed in our world, or that demons don't exist. Just because you don't believe something is reality in our present world doesn't mean there aren't others that believe they are and vice versus. How do you know what the future holds? How do you know 100 years down the road we couldn't figure out how to do plasma weapons or vibro-blades like Rifts? these are just your assumptions, your theories and your opinions. You want to discount years of scientific study as just theories but it's alright for you to theorize what we will or will not be able to do in the future.

I'm not discounting years of scientific study as just theories, some however possess a wide range of leeway on what may or may not be possible depending on the initial variables of which we may be in error in regards to. Also it is indeed quite alright for me to theorize what we can and cannot do in the future, nor am I attempting to argue that a particular theory in RL must of a certainty happen in a FANTASY game, one where there are uncounted variables completely invalidating any such theory (really, how many of those scientific studies include random dimensional rifts unleashing destructive storms and transposing portions of the earth with other worlds in their equations? ). I'd be quite surprised if you can point me to a computer model or scientific study that includes things like the lost continent of Atlantis reappearing in the middle of the ocean or portions of the planet permanently locked between two separate dimensions.

[glitterboy2098]

in order for anything to make sense, you have to assume that except where magic is directly involved, things conform to known information. just because there are fantasy elements involved does not mean you can throw out physics, thermodynamics, ecology, or verismilitude for everything else.

call it the occams razor of fiction. Tom Clancy sums it up perfectly. "fiction at least has to make sense"

atomic rockets has a whole section on such topics, respecting science
i particularly like this quote:

I suspect that most of these wannabe writers are getting their first introduction to 'putting the science in science fiction' in the format "you can't do that."
You can't have a planet-city because of heat pollution, you can't have an FTL communication system because it creates causality loops, and so on.
It's pretty depressing when every cool idea you ever have is getting shot full of holes, especially by someone who talks down to you. At some point, the natural reaction is to say "F--- it, I'm never going to get anything done if I keep listening to this guy drone on about all the things I can't do!"
Science and fiction aren't the only place where this happens. People can only juggle a limited number of important points in their head at a time; if you pile enough rules and confounding variables on them they start rejecting some of them simply as a defense mechanism.
So I think a lot of them are rejecting science because of a marketing failure; science is presented to them as a list of things they can't do. And the list is so long that they can't possibly remember all the rules, which makes it even more off-putting.
Talk to people about what they can do, or suggest what they should do, and they'll be less inclined to rebel against your advice than if you tell them they're wrong and dumb.
Most people prefer to be left with some ideas that are at least as interesting as the ideas that get shot down by the power of SCIENCE!, because otherwise they come away from the exchange of ideas poorer rather than richer.

and of course, i love this one:

The important point is to keep the fracture under control. Hack writers will assume that "if we have to break a few theories of physics for FTL, why not just throw all the theories out the window?"
Don't give in. Omitting physics will degrade your setting to a pathetic lack of believability worse than an average Space Ghost cartoon.
Ultimately, the goal in writing good fiction isn't "accuracy", it's believability. The goal is to take the more fantastical elements and give them a sense of verisimilitude. For science fiction, scientific accuracy in anything not hand waved for the good of the story is a good start. If you want to preserve the sense of being real, you have to diverge as little as possible in your hand waving.
For the other, while (this) website is mainly a resource for novelists, I know many people online who employ it as a useful guide for roleplaying games, board games, and just plain intellectual debate.
Throwing out the laws of physics is going to screw up the setting the story occurs in, whether novel, fanfic, game, or thought experiment. and the setting being screwed up is going to be the thing that drags the story down into a farce.

mainly because it's my own words. bolded sentance is for empahsis.

[Nightmask]

I'm not discounting years of scientific study as just theories, some however possess a wide range of leeway on what may or may not be possible depending on the initial variables of which we may be in error in regards to. Also it is indeed quite alright for me to theorize what we can and cannot do in the future, nor am I attempting to argue that a particular theory in RL must of a certainty happen in a FANTASY game, one where there are uncounted variables completely invalidating any such theory (really, how many of those scientific studies include random dimensional rifts unleashing destructive storms and transposing portions of the earth with other worlds in their equations? ). I'd be quite surprised if you can point me to a computer model or scientific study that includes things like the lost continent of Atlantis reappearing in the middle of the ocean or portions of the planet permanently locked between two separate dimensions.

Are you trying to say that there are no scientific studies about Atlantis reappearing or about different dimensions?

You did discount the studies on what would happen if Antarctica melted as just theories.

Are you saying that there actually are credible scientific studies considering the possible consequences of an entire continent just magically appearing in the ocean? Including how much it likely would affect the axial tilt of the Earth having this sudden inclusion of mass in a location it wasn't previously. I really doubt there are any actual studies on alternate dimensions interacting with our dimension, since those alternate dimensions are all theoretical, they've never detected any such dimensions to be able to study them just as they've yet to actually detect tachyons. So any theories on what affect other realities impeding on ours would have would be completely without supporting evidence.

With regards to the theories on the Antarctic ice melting, they are in the end theories. They're based on estimates and variables that can be wrong, the ice might for example have considerably more air volume than currently estimated and therefor be far less actual water contained in the Antarctic ice cap than currently believed. Whether the spreading of that mass in a thin layer across the rest of the planet would affect the axial tilt is also theory, again the models could be inaccurate and it may have no affect at all. Things with such complex variables can change dramatically if the initial information they're based on is in error or unrealized variables are left out.

All that also is irrelevant to Rifts: Earth, there are variables present that simply aren't contained in any environmental models regarding actual reality so even if (and the odds are against it) the existing models were 100% correct they don't apply to Rifts: Earth. The models are wrong because Rifts: Earth isn't our Earth and simply has too many variables that aren't the same between them.

[glitterboy2098]

no, but we know enough about plate tectonics, displacement, the mass distribution of the earth, and so on to hazard guesses as to the side effects if such a thing were to occur.

and frankly, there is no such thing as "just a theory" a theory is a description of how something works, based on facts.

A theory is a scientific explanation of an observed phenomenon. Unlike laws, theories actually explain why things are the way they are. Theories are what science is for. If, then, a theory is a scientific explanation of a natural phenomena, ask yourself this: "What part of that definition excludes a theory from being a fact?" The answer is nothing! There is no reason a theory cannot be an actual fact as well.

Ken harding, "it's just a theory"

the predictions of what would happen is based on solid facts about the density of ice, the volume of the ice, and so on. to say they are "just theories" is to insult the amount of work and double checking that went into them.

and it's easy to say "there are extra variables involved in rifts", but you need to tell us what you think those are and why they'd effect things. purden of proof is on the proposer.

i can predict a few of your responses though. you'll talk about rifts...but WB7 tells us rifts don't pass gasses or liquids through unless contained in a solid. (see the section on dead pools).you'll make statements about "portals"..but there are no canon naturally occuring portals. you'll bring up D-shifting..but there is no evidence that D-shifting will bring in disproportunate masses, and no current permanent d-shifting activity. (the south america event was a one time only thing, all the rest are temporary things..and debatable whether the location is actually coming to earth, rather than sending people elsewhere). even the underground rift events from rifter zero don't really bring or remove material, they just swap it.

[Nightmask]

no, but we know enough about plate tectonics, displacement, the mass distribution of the earth, and so on to hazard guesses as to the side effects if such a thing were to occur.

and frankly, there is no such thing as "just a theory" a theory is a description of how something works, based on facts.

A theory is a scientific explanation of an observed phenomenon. Unlike laws, theories actually explain why things are the way they are. Theories are what science is for. If, then, a theory is a scientific explanation of a natural phenomena, ask yourself this: "What part of that definition excludes a theory from being a fact?" The answer is nothing! There is no reason a theory cannot be an actual fact as well.

Ken harding, "it's just a theory"

the predictions of what would happen is based on solid facts about the density of ice, the volume of the ice, and so on. to say they are "just theories" is to insult the amount of work and double checking that went into them.

Yes there is such a thing as 'just a theory', and 'we know enough to hazard a guess' hardly implies accuracy or certainty, which there isn't.

Theories are as reliable as the facts that they contain and attempt to explain, if something explains enough things better than another theory it gets moved up in scale if and until something comes along that contains more facts or can be shown to better explain them.

As you note you're talking predictions, NOT facts, and many of the things you're calling facts are based on estimates and approximations. They have no hard facts as to the exact amount and weight of ice in Antarctica, only estimates and those men you're going on defending would be some of the first to admit that they could be wrong and that their predictions are based on what they believe are the most current and reliable facts. They have core samples from various locations used to make estimates about the ice and measurements of the rough edges of the ice and approximate depths, that's it. As I pointed out there could be areas of ice, large areas, that are significantly more aerated and contain far less water than was the core samples used for the estimates imply.

Finally it's all irrelevant, it's meaningless to try and apply any of that to Rifts Earth. Palladium defines all the variables including the ones that have never and can never exist on this Earth such that events like Atlantis magically appearing and even the ice caps melting (if they did) don't have an impact on the Earth's axial tilt or cause significant problems. It's a fantasy world, those Real World models have no bearing at all on it, it's one of those points where one needs to stop insisting 'that's what I'm sure would happen in the real world' when you aren't certain of it and it's not the real world in any case for it to matter.

[glitterboy2098]

"So What If I Broke Twelve Laws Of Physics? It's Only Science FICTION"
This silly opinion implies that the word "fiction" nullifies the word "science." Since it is "fiction", and fiction is by definition "not true", then we can make "not true" any and all science that gets in the way, right?
Hogwash. By the same logic, the term "detective fiction" gives the author license to totally ignore standard procedures and techniques used by detectives, the term "military fiction" allows the author to totally ignore military tactics and strategy, and the term "historical fiction" allows the author to totally ignore the relevant history.
Imagine a historical fiction novel where Napoleon at Waterloo defeated the knights of the Round Table by using the Enola Gay to drop an atom bomb. It's OK because it is "fiction", right?
This non-argument is the favorite of science fiction fans who like all the zipping spaceships and ray guns but who actually know practically nothing about real science. And who cannot be bothered to go learn.

Palladium defines all the variables including the ones that have never and can never exist on this Earth

absence of proof is not proodf of absence. just because palladium hasn't told us specifically that the reappareance of atlantis altered the earths tilt or altered the climate doesn't mean it didn't happen. in fact, one can make a very good arguement that the known climate differances in rifts match well to what would happen if such a continent did show up on earth.

It's a fantasy world, those Real World models have no bearing at all on it

and it's set in our world, so the corrospondance principle applies. "any new theory has to be able to produce the same results as the old one in the same circumstances"
since earth's climate is pretty much the same in rifts as it in in real life, with only a few variations, that means that any new factors have only minor impact on the system. and occams razor ("Whenever possible, substitute constructions out of known entities for inferences to unknown entities") tells us that these changes have to be fairly simple.

and i am talking prediction. as in "descriptions of the future based on factual data and factual mechanisms". could there be some minor errors involved? sure. but thats why science has the concept of the margin of error. and the margin of error for something like ice cap melting is not large enough to substantially alter the outcome. and btw, the scientists do use more than just a few cores. they use multiple cores from widely spread out locations in each region. they use models of glacial density and dynamics tested by observation and experiment. (for example, the fact that the weight of ice tends to compress ice below it, increasing density and driving out trapped gasses..) predition is a method by which science advances. you make a prediction, you then test your prediction (for example, measuring sea rise as one small part of a glacial mass melts), and then you revise your predition based on that data. which reduces the margin of error.

It's a fantasy world, those Real World models have no bearing at all on it

it's our world with a few tacked on extras. so those real world models would still apply. just because a few people can use a special energy to toss fireballs doesn't mean the laws of thermodynamics have been tossed out the window for everyone. just because you have some super-tough animals doesn't mean the foodchain is gone or ecosystems no longer function. and just because you have some wierd blue energy events doesn't mean geology, hydrology, and all the 'ology's are tossed out the window.

it's all about Verisimilitude, the "quality of realism". if you toss out everytihng, you have no quality of realism. but if you conform to those existing realities, anything you do add seems all the more real.

[Nightmask]

"So What If I Broke Twelve Laws Of Physics? It's Only Science FICTION"
This silly opinion implies that the word "fiction" nullifies the word "science." Since it is "fiction", and fiction is by definition "not true", then we can make "not true" any and all science that gets in the way, right?
Hogwash. By the same logic, the term "detective fiction" gives the author license to totally ignore standard procedures and techniques used by detectives, the term "military fiction" allows the author to totally ignore military tactics and strategy, and the term "historical fiction" allows the author to totally ignore the relevant history.
Imagine a historical fiction novel where Napoleon at Waterloo defeated the knights of the Round Table by using the Enola Gay to drop an atom bomb. It's OK because it is "fiction", right?
This non-argument is the favorite of science fiction fans who like all the zipping spaceships and ray guns but who actually know practically nothing about real science. And who cannot be bothered to go learn.

One would hope you aren't falling into trap of dismissing someone's opinion by accusing them of being willfully stupid and ignorant because it differs from yours. Myself I am certainly not scientifically unschooled but no one can be schooled in everything nor be expected to be. Also you're missing the other part of things, namely that Rifts is also FANTASY, not just science-fiction. While there is some science-fiction there is also stuff that violates any real scientific foundation and you lose the effort to argue that Rifts is hard science-fiction when it's soft, because of the fantasy elements.

Palladium defines all the variables including the ones that have never and can never exist on this Earth

absence of proof is not proodf of absence. just because palladium hasn't told us specifically that the reappareance of atlantis altered the earths tilt or altered the climate doesn't mean it didn't happen. in fact, one can make a very good arguement that the known climate differances in rifts match well to what would happen if such a continent did show up on earth.

Sorry but if they've not made explicit reference to such changes then they haven't happened, as one makes note of changes not when things remain the same. Also if you're going to keep insisting that Rifts Earth is so hard-rooted in our earth you can't handwave away the lack of mention of the axis tilting as 'well they just haven't told us it has yet', also with the shifts in the planetary crust including mountains moved around and portals to other worlds making Earth no longer a closed system you can't argue successfully that the climate changes are a result of Atlantis appearing or at least can't ascribe them all to that event when far more than that occurred.

It's a fantasy world, those Real World models have no bearing at all on it

and it's set in our world, so the corrospondance principle applies. "any new theory has to be able to produce the same results as the old one in the same circumstances"
since earth's climate is pretty much the same in rifts as it in in real life, with only a few variations, that means that any new factors have only minor impact on the system. and occams razor ("Whenever possible, substitute constructions out of known entities for inferences to unknown entities") tells us that these changes have to be fairly simple.

and i am talking prediction. as in "descriptions of the future based on factual data and factual mechanisms". could there be some minor errors involved? sure. but thats why science has the concept of the margin of error. and the margin of error for something like ice cap melting is not large enough to substantially alter the outcome. and btw, the scientists do use more than just a few cores. they use multiple cores from widely spread out locations in each region. they use models of glacial density and dynamics tested by observation and experiment. (for example, the fact that the weight of ice tends to compress ice below it, increasing density and driving out trapped gasses..) predition is a method by which science advances. you make a prediction, you then test your prediction (for example, measuring sea rise as one small part of a glacial mass melts), and then you revise your predition based on that data. which reduces the margin of error.

No, Rifts isn't set in our world it's a 'what if our world had psionics and super-science and a horrible cataclysm occurred' setting. Psionics and Magic are considered to have been a factual part of reality and have been demonstrated to a level of scientific certainty that has never happened in this world. It clearly has physical laws that differ from our own.

In regards to predictions, they're just that predictions, guesses, without any certainty to them. These predictions cannot be tested because it would require the actual melting of the ice caps to prove them which is decidedly NOT in our best interests. Because they can't be proven they can't be treated as certainties, and again as I've already noted even the scientists will insist that they're only as good as the available data, its accuracy, and their ability to determine what variables matter. If there are mistakes anywhere in there the prediction can be wildly inaccurate. Only laymen would insist these things are more certain than they really are.

It's a fantasy world, those Real World models have no bearing at all on it

it's our world with a few tacked on extras. so those real world models would still apply. just because a few people can use a special energy to toss fireballs doesn't mean the laws of thermodynamics have been tossed out the window for everyone. just because you have some super-tough animals doesn't mean the foodchain is gone or ecosystems no longer function. and just because you have some wierd blue energy events doesn't mean geology, hydrology, and all the 'ology's are tossed out the window.

it's all about Verisimilitude, the "quality of realism". if you toss out everytihng, you have no quality of realism. but if you conform to those existing realities, anything you do add seems all the more real.

Of which no one has discussed or mentioned tossing out everything, only pointing out that one can't keep insisting that something that can't even be proven is certain in the real world must be a certainty in a fantasy world that varies in uncounted ways from our world. You don't get to pick and choose on what's relevant, handwaving away those vast differences to insist that none of it matters when any scientist would tell you you're wrong. The entire face of the planet and its mass distribution has been changed all over the place, yet the environment that's not directly distorted by space/time distortions is pretty much what it should be in various areas so obviously these factors have balanced out leaving things like the axial tilt the same.

If a Rifts: Antarctica came out saying how the ice caps melted and it's a verdant paradise but the rest of the planet is still pretty much the same then obviously somewhere some factor or factors counter-balanced that impact even if they aren't explicitly noted. The fact things haven't been affected being proof that something countered it, even if Palladium never explicitly notes it.

[Nightmask]

And you have FACTS that there were never dragons, that there is no such thing as demons? You have FACTS that there are no other dimensions out there (Stephen Hawking would beg to differ), you have FACTS that support your theory that everything scientists say would happen if Antarctica melted is false? So you are saying if there are no HARD FACTS on something then that means it is not true, or that it never existed correct?

That's pretty laughable really, since you can't prove a negative. You've no facts that support the existence of dragons or demons, and Stephen Hawking can beg to differ all he wants he's got no facts of other dimensions only his theoretical constructs just as there are theoretical models that show faster-than-light tachyons exist but have never been detected so have yet to be proven. So what you're actually saying is you have no hard facts of anything and are trying to cloud the issue by acting as if things that aren't facts actually are. You must demonstrate that factually those things exist, you cannot point to a single hard fact that the theories of those scientists would in fact actually be proven right in the event of a total polar ice cap melting. No matter how much you bold, increase the font size, jazz up the color, or animated the word it will not change anything you're tossing out into an actual proven fact.

Putting way too much effort into trying to make things that aren't facts (a fact is something like 'I am a human being' not 'I predict this might happen if this event here happens') out to be facts, things that of certainty will occur or have occurred. It isn't a fact that melting the caps will change the tilt of the earth or what the final level of ocean rise would be if the caps melted, it's a theory that any number of uncounted factors might invalidate and YOU of a certainty can't know it to be fact that it would occur that way no more than I can know. Seems like a lot of effort into behaving as if scientists are utterly infallible and if they say something it must be so in spite of how often scientists are wrong and make mistakes.

That and again way too much effort treating the theory as a given fact in a fantasy setting where the facts that exist are defined by Palladium and NOT real world scientists. 'The ice caps melted but the feared world flooding and axial tilt change never occurred' if posted so by Palladium would be the fact of things, if you wanted in your own game to insist otherwise well that's fine you're free to do that but at this point it's quite moot because Palladium hasn't said anything about it and it's ludicrous to insist it would have to go the way some theory predicts it MIGHT go as if somehow not a single solitary variable is different between the two worlds when dozens or hundreds of variables are different INCLUDING AN ENTIRE CONTINENT MATERIALIZING OUT OF NOWHERE. There is no way at all that theory includes a magical continent appearing out of nowhere as a variable to account for let alone the rest. So really, stop insisting a theory that's meant to apply to this world could possibly apply to one with so many things that aren't in common with our own. It simply doesn't contain enough relevant factors to be applicable.

[Dead Boy]

However, you are wrong about the rest.

Meanwhile I believe you to be wrong, you're taking a few words and ascribing them different levels of import and not viewing the context of things correctly.

A few words? I quoted the whole darn passage!

Here's what it boils down to: Chaos Earth, circa 2003, clearly states that in the nuclear exchange "millions of lives perished in a heartbeat" (CE 13); the Rifts Main Book, circa 1990, says because of the use of nuclear arms, "the sudden destruction of a billion people triggered a surge in the ley lines." (RMB 7) These are direct quotes straight form the respective books, both in the same context of the number of lives lost as a result of the use of nuclear arms.

"Millions" (CE) vs "Billions" (RMB)

How much clearer do you need it to be? It's a retcon, plain and simple.

Or it's an error and they meant million not billion, so not a retcon at all. Someone realized 'hey billion is way too much for a limited exchange, that should have been million' and they corrected it. Hardly the first time and certainly won't be the last a simple error like that has occurred.

You're grasping at straws. Given there was never a correction of "billions" to "millions" in future editions of the RMB, the writer must have intended it to be as written... at least till written differently much later in the pages of another book with a slew of additional conditions when the retcon came into effect.

You have FACTS that there are no other dimensions out there (Stephen Hawking would beg to differ), you have FACTS that support your theory that everything scientists say would happen if Antarctica melted is false?

Stephen Hawking can beg to differ all he wants he's got no facts of other dimensions only his theoretical constructs just as there are theoretical models that show faster-than-light tachyons exist but have never been detected so have yet to be proven.

...a fact is something like 'I am a human being' not 'I predict this might happen if this event here happens'...

Actually, neither are facts. Scientifically speaking, the first is a theory, the second is a hypothesis. Axioms are very rare in science.

Further more, Stephen Hawking's (actually, he's more of a black hole guy; Brian Greene is more of the multiverse guy) has something in his favor supporting the idea of other universes and dimensions of space. He and his peers have proven their existence to a mathematical certainty, which makes such thing highly probable of being true. Sure, mathematical certainties are not the same as "indisputabley is", but they do carry more weight than flouting about unbacked opinions. And for the most part, Nightmask, that's all I've seen out of you. "This ain't so because that may or may not be" is not the best argument to be using for a person demanding "facts" out of others.

[Nightmask]

You're grasping at straws. Given there was never a correction of "billions" to "millions" in future editions of the RMB, the writer must have intended it to be as written... at least till written differently much later in the pages of another book with a slew of additional conditions when the retcon came into effect.

No I'm recognizing that realistically in a book of how many pages with how many total words that correcting something like that can easily slip through the cracks. You're also getting way too bent out of shape over it.

Stephen Hawking can beg to differ all he wants he's got no facts of other dimensions only his theoretical constructs just as there are theoretical models that show faster-than-light tachyons exist but have never been detected so have yet to be proven.

...a fact is something like 'I am a human being' not 'I predict this might happen if this event here happens'...

Actually, neither are facts. Scientifically speaking, the first is a theory, the second is a hypothesis. Axioms are very rare in science.

Further more, Stephen Hawking's (actually, he's more of a black hole guy; Brian Greene is more of the multiverse guy) has something in his favor supporting the idea of other universes and dimensions of space. He and his peers have proven their existence to a mathematical certainty, which makes such thing highly probable of being true. Sure, mathematical certainties are not the same as "indisputabley is", but they do carry more weight than flouting about unbacked opinions. And for the most part, Nightmask, that's all I've seen out of you. "This ain't so because that may or may not be" is not the best argument to be using for a person demanding "facts" out of others.

What a human being is isn't a theory, it's a definition, but I gather confusing issues and muddying the waters rather than address things is a preference for you.

As far as the mathematical certainties go, that doesn't make it real, something you ought to know. That's not an unbacked opinion and given how the insistence on facts was not made by myself but by others who were presenting as facts things that aren't facts and that they could not present facts for seriously don't go trying to shift the effort of others who had no facts to myself when I pointed out if they were going to demand facts then they'd better be presenting facts themselves not guesses. You can predict with the best models in the world and still be wrong, and the best model in the world is garbage if it's missing sufficient variables which isn't an unbacked opinion either but the reality of things and something I see you chose to not acknowledge since as I've repeatedly pointed out a real world model is worthless to try and apply to a world where the variables differ so greatly from those it was built to deal with.

I shouldn't have to keep pointing out that when it comes to things like other dimensions while we have all those theories that they might exist without a reliable means of testing them none of them can be considered to have any validity. If you can't test it you can't with any kind of certainty insist it either is or is not valid, this applies to everything. You can't derive a test to prove with certainty that you aren't a brain in a jar in a lab somewhere and everything you experience isn't just a simulation, so without the ability to test something you've nothing but unbacked opinion as to whether or not something is valid. You can't present a test for other dimensions therefor you can't insist they must exist because a mathematical model says that they might, the model has no more support in the end than a model that says no other dimensions exist.

You can't say a theory that's not a proven fact (since it requires the actual disaster to occur to go from a prediction/guess to a fact) which is meant to apply to this world must be a certainty to occur on a world where the variables vary so widely from our own. That's not unbacked opinion the unbacked opinion is insisting the theory must be right even when the starting variables aren't the same and even the number of variables aren't the same. I don't speak to unbacked opinion, I point to the wide range of very real differences between this world and Rifts Earth and how they invalidate applying certain real world constraints to a non-real world.

You seem to be insisting that for such a complex system that somehow YOU are the keeper of what's certain to happen and how a predictive model which is only as good as the variables put into it must have only one outcome no matter how vastly the variables differ from those used to arrive at the original conclusion. Sorry but THAT is the unbacked opinion, not mine. I'm not the one insisting predictive models used outside their elements are always going to arrive at one conclusion no matter how you change the input variables, nor do I insist something that's impossible (at least with current technology) to test is a physical reality. Being a great mathematician doesn't make you always right, because one says 'I think this model is right and it's mathematically consistent' doesn't make it right, and putting an inordinate amount of effort into trying to present them as more valid than they really are just to disagree with me isn't going to make them more valid or give you some kind of brownie points.

Rifts Earth was ripped to Hell and back by events no predictive model meant for this earth can cover, and for all the insistence otherwise no such model's results even if they might prove to be the actual result for this world can be treated as the result for a fantasy world UNLESS THE GAME DEVELOPERS CHOOSE IT TO BE SO or the various GM choose it to be so in their games. It's a really stupid thing to keep insisting on when Palladium hasn't even given any reason to think the Ice Caps have melted on either end of the planet and no reason to think there's evidence of an axial tilt change or other changes consistent with that event if our planet's models were valid. As Judge Judy would put it, it's a whole bunch of 'Who Shot John?', red herring arguments insisting how a particular fan must be right and anyone disagreeing must be wrong because only that fan could possibly be right and can't handle being told he doesn't have the final say in what's right.

[Todd Yoho]

That and again way too much effort treating the theory as a given fact in a fantasy setting where the facts that exist are defined by Palladium and NOT real world scientists. 'The ice caps melted but the feared world flooding and axial tilt change never occurred' if posted so by Palladium would be the fact of things, if you wanted in your own game to insist otherwise well that's fine you're free to do that but at this point it's quite moot because Palladium hasn't said anything about it and it's ludicrous to insist it would have to go the way some theory predicts it MIGHT go as if somehow not a single solitary variable is different between the two worlds when dozens or hundreds of variables are different INCLUDING AN ENTIRE CONTINENT MATERIALIZING OUT OF NOWHERE. There is no way at all that theory includes a magical continent appearing out of nowhere as a variable to account for let alone the rest. So really, stop insisting a theory that's meant to apply to this world could possibly apply to one with so many things that aren't in common with our own. It simply doesn't contain enough relevant factors to be applicable.

On the surface, this is correct. If Palladium publishes something in an official sourcebook then it becomes canon as far as the story of the game line is concerned. Just because it's canon doesn't mean it won't be stupid. My go to examples are Japan and Spirit West. I hate those books for a lot of reasons. Spirit West was the last straw: I quit buying Palladium for several years because of it. But when I got the Palladium bug back and I started writing for them, one of my goals was to bring verisimilitude back. So, there's nothing to say that both sides couldn't be appeased. I came up with this in the few minutes I spent drafting this post:

Maybe the energies of the cataclysm forced the glacial ice to sublimate and that's why Rifts earth has air elementals and aerial-type creatures of magic. A Genesis story for a brand of creatures of magic who now see Antarctica as their homeland that they fiercely protect. However, the sublimation of the ice and the transformative effects of the magic energies left behind a frigid rock desert teeming with resources (gems, precious metals, and other items useful for practitioners of magic), ley lines, and strange pockets of magic energy (akin to oil fields) with unique abilities waiting to be tapped. It creates a magic "gold rush" effect ensnaring all of the supernatural powers that be across Rifts earth. Forces from Atlantis, gargoyles, Indian Raksashas, the Federation of Magic, Forces of Lazlo, and whoever else engaged in a resources land grab and war that could change the face of Rifts earth forever.

Reality and fantasy rolled into one: Rifts works best when its written that way. Of course, the darn things need to actually be published first...