I have a question about the P.P.E. limit and high lv spells?

[magictiger]

Hi guys,
Can someone explain to me the P.P.E limit of P.P.E. x 3? Can I still cast high level spells that require over 500 P.P.E. if I only have 100 P.P.E. (300 P.P.E. max absorbed according to the limit)? And if so, How?

Thank you everyone.

[Mack]

Sort answer: you can't.

Long answer: you'll need an additional source of PPE. Such as:
1) Another mage willing to donate his PPE to your spell.
2) A spell (such as Energy Sphere) that stores PPE for later use. You can also use a TW version of this spell.
3) Killing off someone (aka Ritual Sacrifice)... as known as when good mages go bad.

The details are on p186 of Rifts Ultimate Edition, but I assume you already read that.

[Athos]

Hi guys,
Can someone explain to me the P.P.E limit of P.P.E. x 3? Can I still cast high level spells that require over 500 P.P.E. if I only have 100 P.P.E. (300 P.P.E. max absorbed according to the limit)? And if so, How?

Thank you everyone.

The unrealistically low amounts of PPE that are given to most OCCs in Rifts is a problem, there was a thread a while back on changes to the magic system and a lot of us agreed that doubling the PPE starting amount would be a change for the better. Of course, there were the always "say no to change" people who claim that carrying around 47 talismans is more fun, but hey, they don't game anyways, they just like to talk the game.

[Dunia]

I like the thought that you must have a sacrifice or aid to work certain spells or that only High-level mages can cast them. It makes the awe factor of the magic stronger.

I mean, there is a reason why mages would like to have appretices (to be able to sacrifice their power to help the mage)

Why shall everyone be able to cast all spells. I mean a Ley line walker can easily reach 100 within a level or three.

[Dunia]

and yes I both play (nowdays) and GM Rifts, I am not just a forum troll saying my thought...

[Mack]

Friends, let's leave the personal commentaries out of this topic.

[The Beast]

Hi guys,
Can someone explain to me the P.P.E limit of P.P.E. x 3? Can I still cast high level spells that require over 500 P.P.E. if I only have 100 P.P.E. (300 P.P.E. max absorbed according to the limit)? And if so, How?

Thank you everyone.

The unrealistically low amounts of PPE that are given to most OCCs in Rifts is a problem, there was a thread a while back on changes to the magic system and a lot of us agreed that doubling the PPE starting amount would be a change for the better. Of course, there were the always "say no to change" people who claim that carrying around 47 talismans is more fun, but hey, they don't game anyways, they just like to talk the game.

My last group had you roll for starting PPE, but when you leveled up, you always gained the maximum amount allowed.

[magictiger]

Thank you guys.
I understand the different sources of P.P.E.. But in the Book of Magic it mentions that limit of P.P.E. X 3. Why was that included? Or does anyone know?

When I read it, this is how I interpreted it:

My Shifter with 140 P.P.E. gathering P.P.E. from a ley line nexus to the max of 420 P.P.E. can't cast any spell or ritual needing over 420 P.P.E. points. According to the limit I can't absorb anymore P.P.E. from any source. Thats how I interpreted it.

I can't find any other info on this.

[azazel1024]

Absorb yes, use no. There is a maximum rate that you can pull PPE from leylines and nexus, thus absorbing it for use in a spell. However, if there is "free PPE" available, like a willing donor, ritual magic group, sacrafice, talisman, etc, you can channel that PPE directly in to the spell, you aren't really absorbing it.

At least that is my interpretation.

I also agree that magic users don't have nearly enough PPE. Even piddly spells can make a mage run out of PPE really fast. At even 10 PPE a pop, most low level mages have maybe 7-12 spells in them until they are dry...and at a rate of only 10PPE regeneration max (that is the rate for meditation, right?) unless on a leyline or nexus, they are mostly useless for hours.

Go high level and a 7th+ level ley line walker, even with 200-300PPE could easily blow their load of PPE on a few high level spells in just a couple of Melees and not be able to do a thing for hours or even a couple of days to get it all back.

I am a fan of doubling starting PPE, PPE per level and PPE regeneration rate. Also that mages can draw ambient PPE from non-Ley lines, at least on worlds with high PPE. Say 5 PPE per minute in places like Rifts Earth, 2PPE on medium level worlds like Palladium and nothing on low PPE worlds. That way a mage is still capable of low level magic periodically even once they used up their own PPE, and it also aids regeneration of their PPE (perhaps only taking 2-3hrs on Rifts Earth for a medium level mage).

[drewkitty ~..~]

Might someone post the place the PPE overcharge is listed in RUE?

[Lenwen]

Hi guys,
Can someone explain to me the P.P.E limit of P.P.E. x 3? Can I still cast high level spells that require over 500 P.P.E. if I only have 100 P.P.E. (300 P.P.E. max absorbed according to the limit)? And if so, How?

Thank you everyone.

You have no issue really .. KS himself has stated in every book (or close to it) that you can just toss out which ever rules you want.

Which means your caster .. can cast any spell regardless of the amount of PPE required ..

[Sureshot]

Im curious as how that is a positive and not a negative. Its one thing to cast spells and not pay attention to the PPE. Its another when the system is designed to not give you enough PPE and then expects you to be effective with it. It can be done yet imo it is requires a lot of care. Not to mention imo annoying.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Practitioners of magic (dragons, demon spell casters, and the similar beings versed in magic) can absorb up to three times their normal limit in PPE. However, most borrowed, captured, or stolen PPE can only be held for a short period of time - the mage's PE in min., before it dissipates.

With the way the wording is in this, the mage can hold up to 3 times their base of gathered PPE.

If the mage has his base PPE full, then this means they can have a max total of 4 x base of PPE, in a ratio of 1 to 3, normal base PPE to gathered PPE.

Note 1: Some people have their own interpretations to the text. Out of which comes the "Max PPE= 3x base". Including the base in the 3x base.
Note 2: There is also dual sides to the discussion about whether or not gathered PPE can replenish a mage's base PPE. This is why I used the above phrasing the way I did.

However, with a base PPE of 100, the max PPE they can have is 400. Still too little to cast a spell costing 500 PPE.

[Shark_Force]

Im curious as how that is a positive and not a negative. Its one thing to cast spells and not pay attention to the PPE. Its another when the system is designed to not give you enough PPE and then expects you to be effective with it. It can be done yet imo it is requires a lot of care. Not to mention imo annoying.

so don't play classes with limited resources.

it is necessary to restrict casters in terms of volume of what they can do, because they are extremely powerful in numerous other areas.

[Sureshot]

so don't play classes with limited resources.

So because the designer of the game decided to short change how much PPE a spell caster can have I should play something else. Useful advice yet imo somewhat of a copout.

it is necessary to restrict casters in terms of volume of what they can do, because they are extremely powerful in numerous other areas.

I agree to a certain extent. The problem being is that players who want to play the class based on descriptions of the text and art are not really going to be impressed that the art imo does not match reality. The also have two main disadvantages. They cannot wear metal armor. Second while they are poweful all it takes is 1 point of damge of any type to pretty much stop them in their tracks. UNlke the other classes that can take a lot of damage and still use a psionic ability and fire a gun. Using Talismans is a solution yet a costly one not to mention nothing looks more goofy than a mage lugging around a batch of them because he cannot get the right amount of PPE from hos own reserves. Before anyone mentions leylines or leyline nexus. Your not always going to be next to one. Not unless the game i centered around one. The magic system works. Neither is it the perfect system that some on this board make it out to be.

Whenever I am as player in a Rifts game most of the time I'm the spellcaster and 99.9% of the time the GM ends up either increasing the amount of starting PPE. Or giving max starting PPE. For all the reasons that have been mentioned in this thread.

[Shark_Force]

- there are classes that require resource management, and classes that do not. if resource management is not fun to you, then it is not a copout to suggest that you avoid it. you yourself said that it can work if you manage your resources carefully, but that you didn't consider it fun. well, if something isn't fun, you should probably choose a different recreational activity. but don't tell me that it's unplayable just because you don't think it's fun.

- mages can't wear certain kinds of armor, but can easily wear others. well, as of RUE anyways. i suspect a fairly large portion of the rifts population ignores those rules, but can't really provide any hard evidence of that fact.

- mages can actually do quite a bit while under attack. first off, they only get interrupted if they are casting a multi-action spell (and plenty of spells take only a single action). note that while it is not explicitly stated in many cases that you can interrupt other people who are performing a task that requires multiple actions (such as a body block/tackle, or a power punch, or some burst attacks), it should still be possible

- mages can also simply prevent the attack from having an effect. force fields, taking cover, reducing damage to zero, using various spells that parry attacks on their own, being invisible, and so forth are not only useful for preventing damage, but also for preventing interruptions. and there are useful offensive options that can buy you time: carpet of adhesion, magic net, compulsion, blinding flash, cloud of smoke, fear, domination, and so forth. clever use of these spells should let you get off those big, multi-action spells when needed.

- many of the multi-action spells are not the kind of spell you need in the middle of a firefight anyways. many of the ones that are even useful in a fight don't require that you actually be in sight of an enemy (for example, if you need impervious to energy, it doesn't much matter if you've got LOS on whoever is trying to kill you; you open with something like armor of ithan to buy you time, get into cover, and use impervious to energy). there's even a spell that can buy you half a melee round of uninterrupted time, which you can cast from a safe location, step into the area that would be otherwise unsafe, cast your 2-3 action spell, and get back into cover.

- mages have spells that let them turn resources at a non-critical time into resources that can be used at a later time. scrolls and talismans, but also various summoning spells, spells that allow them to gain useful information, spells that allow them to restore the function of their non-magical equipment (like repairing armor or recharging their e-clips), spells that generate useful materials or magical constructs for later use (like fire globe and create wood, ironwood, create steel, etc). also there's the energy sphere spell, which allows you to store PPE for later use.

- mages can sometimes access more bountiful supplies of magical energy when they find a ley line, they can get more energy by using sacrifice (animal or human), drawing on living allies or enemies, and sometimes by drawing on PPE batteries which can potentially be available.

- mages can also use techno-wizardry devices, which can't be uninterrupted, and in many cases are charged in advance and then later on used, without requiring a fresh infusion of PPE until the device is fully discharged. for example, the various TK-guns do not require expensive emeralds or diamonds, nor a talisman spell, or an energy sphere, but they can hold multiple shots on a single charge, and can be charged far in advance of their actual use.

if, after all that, you still can't figure out how to deal with those problems, well, maybe a class that has challenges to overcome is not for you...

[Sureshot]

For the most part I agree with alot of what you posted. This thread is not about discussing tactics that spell casters should be using. For the most part it's something I know and others know. This thread is about how spell casters get too little PPE top cast spells. All the tactics you suggested work. Try do alot of the stuff you posted consectiively and see how that works out. One thig I will disagree with is that I think your wrong about how interrupted spells work. Spells from level 6 and up cannot be cast while under attack. Even spell of levels 1-5 can be interrupted. You have to win initative to get them off or you lose your spell. While an improvement no other class suffers from liabilty. You can hosuerule it that they do yet no official rules on interrupting say something like a power punch or using a psionci ability.

if, after all that, you still can't figure out how to deal with those problems, well, maybe a class that has challenges to overcome is not for you...

Just a quick FYI calling someone incompetent because he has troubles using a certain class in Rifts is not going to get your point across. Or even want to make me listen to what you have to say. One of my cousins failed his driving exam twice. I did no go up to him and go "the challenges of driving a car seem above you maybe you should learn to bike instead". You may not have come out and said that right out yet their are ways of saying something without saying. You seem to have no problem with the rules more power to you and I respect that.The system is far from perfect some of us have issues with it so I ask that your respect that too.

[azazel1024]

My point is less throwing out high level spell after high level spell, but even lower level ones.

Consider fire bolt. It does 4D6 MD and I think costs 7PPE to cast.

Also Armor of Ithan I think is 10PPE and provides 10MDC per level.

So low level mage enters combat, has call it 120PPE.

First action, Armor of Ithan (lets call him a 4th level ley line walker) and he now has 40MDC. He throws out a couple of fire bolts (lets call it 2), takes a couple of hits and then recasts armor of ithan to protect himself again. He has now burned through 44PPE out of his 120 and has only delt 8D6 damage. Do that for a few more melee rounds and they've used it all up, maybe survived 4-5 melee rounds of "low level" combat and only dished out maybe 16D6 damage. If you roll well that might be enough to kill a couple of dead boys in medium armor.

Sure being a mage isn't simply about damaging spells. You have things like carpet of adhesion, obscuring spells, etc, etc, etc. However, a low level wizard on their own is no match for much more than maybe 1 or 2 guys in MDC body armor with hand weapons without either luck or very, very good spell selection (and a little luck). I am not trying to say that a level 1 ley line walker should trounce a CS mechanized company, but magic users are trumpted up as this ultra powerful characters, when with the strength of their spells (even used creatively) and the amount of PPE they cost and they have at their resources, make them little better than a non-magic user with some tech toys.

[The Dark Elf]

Im not going to come in on a post about something Im not practised in. Ive not played a LLW in rifts.

The starting PPE and spell costs I feel are just right for PFRPG, including the high level ones and the damages. Perhaps the "crossover" is to different to maintain in a technological world. However, that sentiment could be exactly what is desired. As someone mentioned I do not want to play a mage that casts fireball as every combat attack and these rules keep the techies more (thinks of a word...) - active?

[Shark_Force]

My point is less throwing out high level spell after high level spell, but even lower level ones.

Consider fire bolt. It does 4D6 MD and I think costs 7PPE to cast.

Also Armor of Ithan I think is 10PPE and provides 10MDC per level.

So low level mage enters combat, has call it 120PPE.

First action, Armor of Ithan (lets call him a 4th level ley line walker) and he now has 40MDC. He throws out a couple of fire bolts (lets call it 2), takes a couple of hits and then recasts armor of ithan to protect himself again. He has now burned through 44PPE out of his 120 and has only delt 8D6 damage. Do that for a few more melee rounds and they've used it all up, maybe survived 4-5 melee rounds of "low level" combat and only dished out maybe 16D6 damage. If you roll well that might be enough to kill a couple of dead boys in medium armor.

Sure being a mage isn't simply about damaging spells. You have things like carpet of adhesion, obscuring spells, etc, etc, etc. However, a low level wizard on their own is no match for much more than maybe 1 or 2 guys in MDC body armor with hand weapons without either luck or very, very good spell selection (and a little luck). I am not trying to say that a level 1 ley line walker should trounce a CS mechanized company, but magic users are trumpted up as this ultra powerful characters, when with the strength of their spells (even used creatively) and the amount of PPE they cost and they have at their resources, make them little better than a non-magic user with some tech toys.

*or* the mage casts a single magic net and several enemies are incapacitated for several melee rounds (and quite possibly, the entire fight just ended because you can now walk up to the other guy and spend the next minute or three killing the other guy while he's defenseless).

*or* the mage uses one of several spells that provide multiple rounds of MDC offensive capability, such as throwing stones or one of the sword-creating spells.

*or* the mage simply becomes invisible and walks away, because honestly he doesn't really need to kill the CS mechanized company in the first place.

*or* the mage can use techno-wizardry weapons to supplement his offense and defense.

*or* the mage can use regular technological weapons and armor to supplement his offense defense.

*or* the mage can retreat, summon some expendable minions like a shadow beast or three, and start harassing their enemies without ever personally being in combat.

etc, etc, etc.

there is nothing wrong with a setting where the mage, ie the person who spends all their time studying, reading, and so forth, does not have a default plan for every challenge they come across involving repeatedly nuking it with their most powerful spells. they have spells like firebolt and meteor and even annihilation because *sometimes* they are the solution to a problem, not because they are always the only solution to every problem. mages (or at least, most mages, there are some exceptions) are not warriors, they shouldn't resolve everything by direct damage any more than you would expect a rogue scholar or wilderness scout to resolve everything by shooting it.

your mage should not be spending all their time thinking "now how do i kill everything that gets in my way", and more time thinking about how to deal with the problems. if you get attacked by someone, the problem is not "those people alive and not on fire", the problem is "how can i get out of this situation alive", and making it so that the person is either no longer alive or no longer not on fire is only one of many possible solutions to that problem. and in any case, even if the problem *is* that the person is alive and not on fire, the average mage (and this likely *especially* includes the combat mages) should be retreating and finding a better time and place to fight where they can be the attacker and use surprise, terrain, and other factors to their advantage, rather than fighting the person on their own terms.

@ sureshot: it has nothing to do with capability. you said you don't enjoy dealing with the challenge of limited resources. well, if you don't enjoy dealing with limited resources, then it clearly is not the recreational activity you should be spending your time on. just don't try and tell everyone else it can't be done, or that it doesn't work, or that it's broken, just because you don't enjoy it. specifically:

It can be done yet imo it is requires a lot of care. Not to mention imo annoying.

that is what you said, right? you acknowledged that it was possible ("it can be done"), which means nothing is broken in the first place actually, but then stated that in your opinion it requires a lot of care (ie is challenging), and that it is annoying indicating that you don't find it fun. based on the fact that rifts is supposed to be a recreational activity, the entire point of which is to have fun... well, if you don't find it fun, don't do it. just don't try to tell everyone else that it's badly designed, that it is impossible to deal with, and that it needs changing to be usable.

i don't enjoy scraping my face across asphalt (i've done it before when i wiped out on my bike as a kid, it sucked, i'm in no hurry to do it again). you could conclude that it is *impossible* to do that, or that i personally am *incapable* of doing that... or you could read it just like it says: i don't enjoy doing that. and i don't plan on doing it again.

[Sureshot]

First, I would say it does match the text. No mage is described, empirically, as casting high level spells repeatedly. Actually, very few flavor text details a mage battle. The ones that are hinted that they could tend to have done something unseemly. Further, the low ppe nature, armor restrictions, and rarity of high level magic are described clearly. So there is nothing along those lines that is "broken." Mechanically, the advantages and disadvantages of mages are readily available and mostly consistent. From a mechanical aspect, no problem there.

I should have specified the art of Rifts not the text my mistake. At least when it comes to the art they are portrayed as being more combat oriented and less sneaky and crafty as the are kind of inted at being in the text. In many ways the art in rifts does not imo match up with the rules.

That leaves people simply not liking it. That is fine. However, to say there is something wrong with the game because you do not like an aspect of it. You have not demonstrated that there is something materially wrong with this aspect, you simply do not like it. In film criticism it is stressed that just because you do not like it, it doesn't make it a bad film. A good film can be extremely disliking.

Shackling the magic classes with a low PPE is not someting that leads to players wanting to play them. Its way too easy to burn through PPE because yor not given enough of it imo. While one can say "dont play a combat orineted mage" which is fine yet sometimes guess what I want to play a combat oriented mage. Not to mention imo some of the PPE costs of certain spells is just too high. You may not see it as a flaw I can respect that. I do see it as a flaw so I ask that your respect that. My mind is pretty set on this and no one is going to change my mind at least on this topic.

[Shark_Force]

combat mages are quite possible. they just have to not use the really expensive nukes as their first resort.

just like a headhunter shouldn't be surprised if they run out of e-clips when they shoot everything with the anti-tank laser that drains an entire e-clip every shot.

instead, they should focus on spells that provide ample offensive and defensive capabilities for their cost, and only use the big guns when appropriate;

for example, the spell "throwing stones" can provide two melee rounds of offensive capabilities. a simple blinding flash can severely turn the tides of battle in your favor, while it may not do damage, and it can be cast very cheaply. fear is another powerful attack spell (although not a damaging spell), which can significantly improve other spells (for example, you can cast it and then when the target doesn't get to defend against an attack, use something big). armor of ithan provides MDC, it is true, but it *also* provides resistance to some attacks, and armor bizarre both provides protection and debuffs enemies at the same time. impervious to fire is inexpensive, and can make you immune to many attacks. invisibility is another powerful combat spell, and don't for a second think it won't be in a competent combat mage's repertoire. mental blast can take out weaker opponents in far fewer spells than having to break through body armor in many cases. lesser paralysis, another attack spell, can quickly end a fight. and of course, there's the old staples of carpet of adhesion and magic net. then there are spells like electric arc, fists of fury, crushing fist, frostblade, targeted deflection, lightblade, spinning blades, lightning arc, etc can provide multiple rounds or attacks worth of fighting, with some also improving defenses at the same time.

if your "combat mage" only wants to make things blow up, and refuses to use other spells, then they're an idiot, and should expect their job to be hard. they have so many powerful combat abilities that do not involve blowing things up, which are generally speaking also cheaper and more effective than blowing things up.

if all you really want is someone who nukes stuff, then don't make a mage, make a superbeing with alter physical structure and some energy expulsion abilities. any actual combat-oriented mage worth their salt is going to be using combat spells of all varieties, not just nukes.

[Sureshot]

SF I get the point your trying to make. Except where not arguing about the utlity of mages or what they can do. Everything you said in your above post can be done. Except the PPE given to spell casters at least in Rifts is just too low. Even if one mixes and matches spells for a given situation its just too easy to run out of spells. True once out of PPE the character can use weaposn yet prefer to stick with magic. Im not asking for a spell caster that can do everything. Just one that has durability at least when casting spells. As DF has pointed out in PFRP the magic system works perfectly. Out of PFRP not as well imo.

[azazel1024]

My point w/ the firebolt and armor of ithan spells is more of how quickly your PPE is used in combat. Even if you are not casting offensive spells, you burn through your PPE very fast unless you avoid a combat situation, or decide to stay "idle". Yes there are some multiturn offensive or control spells, but not a honking big number until you get somewhat higher up (and then they cost, big time).

Yes you need to be creative, but so do you with other classes. Why attack the dead boy with your vibro sword when you can just cut the big oak tree down next to him and watch it pin him to the ground if he doesn't jump out of the way in time.

However, as a mage, about your only option is to be creative, and if you get in to too much sneaking around, or tiffs, etc in a day you are completely tapped out with no options. Tech character they can just recharge some batteries real quick or get some new ones. I don't things should be apples to apples, but magic users and IMHO psychics get the short end of the stick when it comes to flexibility in how much use they can get out of their PPE and ISP. Yes they can be creative with what they have, but they just can't use what they have very much or very often.

[Shark_Force]

My point w/ the firebolt and armor of ithan spells is more of how quickly your PPE is used in combat. Even if you are not casting offensive spells, you burn through your PPE very fast unless you avoid a combat situation, or decide to stay "idle". Yes there are some multiturn offensive or control spells, but not a honking big number until you get somewhat higher up (and then they cost, big time).

Yes you need to be creative, but so do you with other classes. Why attack the dead boy with your vibro sword when you can just cut the big oak tree down next to him and watch it pin him to the ground if he doesn't jump out of the way in time.

However, as a mage, about your only option is to be creative, and if you get in to too much sneaking around, or tiffs, etc in a day you are completely tapped out with no options. Tech character they can just recharge some batteries real quick or get some new ones. I don't things should be apples to apples, but magic users and IMHO psychics get the short end of the stick when it comes to flexibility in how much use they can get out of their PPE and ISP. Yes they can be creative with what they have, but they just can't use what they have very much or very often.

ermmm.. about half the spells i listed were level 4 and under. i'm not sure what you mean by "somewhat higher up", because that's the level of spells that most spellcasters get to *start* with, and it's easily within the "it's not hard to find or buy knowledge of these spells" category as well. i mean, just how many do you need? the way i figure it, you can easily make do with one multi-turn offensive spell (throwing stones being probably your best option), and yet they give you several others.

as far as a tech character just going to get more batteries or whatever, where the heck do you think they get those? recharge the batteries or get new ones *where*? do you just shove your expended e-clips under your pillow and while you sleep the magical e-clip fairy comes and trades in your old expended e-clips for fully charged ones? how about repairing your armor, i suppose that just magically fixes itself while you sleep as well?

tech characters can go somewhat longer in a constant sprint before needing a recharge, it is true, but then they are screwed. a mage can go to sleep and wake up and be ready to go. a tech character who's armor just got destroyed is going to have shell out thousands of credits for new body armor, and if it was a power armor or robot vehicle then they could be *really* screwed over. depending on your interpretation of the rules, the magic character might only need a couple of minutes on a ley line to fully recharge, for that matter. not to mention expendables like missiles, explosive ammo, grenades, etc. where do you think the tech characters get those? "oh, i'll just head over to the local farmer's market, get some nice onions and tomatoes, and maybe a crate of medium range plasma missiles"?

yeesh. well, i guess if you get bottomless, self-refilling ammunition bags and self-recharging e-clips and recharge stations (free of charge, of course) in the middle of the trackless wilderness, then in that case i suppose magic might start to look like it has rather limited resources.

on the other hand, if you're playing in the setting as described, where not every town has extensive repair facilities for your stolen SAMAS armor, and even if you do find a town that can do the repairs it costs you tens of thousands of credits, or where e-clips cost thousands of credits, and if the town even has reloads for missiles/grenades/ammunition it's probably to reload their own weapons so that they don't die the next time a minor MDC predator decides to pay them a visit and they're not likely to just sell it to you without good reason... yes, it's possible for tech characters to get all their stuff back to full. it is *not* easy or cheap, and it certainly isn't nearly as trivial as what a mage needs to do to get a recharge. not to mention, the mage has access to all of that tech stuff too (and, courtesy of not blowing 20,000 credits every time they go back to town to recharge their e-clips, they can afford more of it).

[Mack]

Don't assume that mages are supposed be front line combatants.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Practitioners of magic (dragons, demon spell casters, and the similar beings versed in magic) can absorb up to three times their normal limit in PPE. However, most borrowed, captured, or stolen PPE can only be held for a short period of time - the mage's PE in min., before it dissipates.

I've been thinking since I posted last.
Yes, I know thinking can get you into trouble.
But I was just thinking of the examples of spell casters that could overcharge their PPE. And they only have examples of CoM and SN spell casters. So IF you wanted to be a really strict rules lawyer, then only CoM and SN spell casters can overcharge on PPE. And that would make a GM's life such more easier, because that means the PC's could only cast spells they could power from their base PPE.

[Sureshot]

Don't assume that mages are supposed be front line combatants.

Depending on how the adventure goes or the kind of GM one has running the game you cannot always choose to not be a frontline combatant. Imo the low PPE given to mages also hampers being in the front line. Some posters in this thread are always assuming optimial conditons and imo your not always going to get that.

The problem is that RPGs have never possessed an art criticism movement. Even techniques from movies or literature only partially apply. We can you objective axioms from film criticism to determine if Transformers 3 is a good movie or not. However, there is not a philosophy for RPGs.

I'm not saying everyone needs to agree with how I feel about the low PPE for mages. Only to respect that. I'm pretty moderates most of the time on most subjects yet sometimes I'm also set in my ways about certain things. As much as I like Riftd if someone were to objectively ask my for the falws of the game low starting PPE would be one of the flaws I would point out. I see no reason to sugercoat what I consider flaws in an rpg.

[azazel1024]

As for ammo, compared to a modern equipped soldier, your average grunt is probably lugging somewhere around 14-26 eclips. At 20-30 shots per, taking single shots at least, that comes out to something like 30 minutes to 2hrs of constant combat without letting up (if not longer since I doubt you are constantly pumping out single shots) and even using rapid fire or pulses, quite a long time of continuous combat.

For refilling on ammo...how do you think soldiers today get reammoed? Extra ammo in an APC, supply vehicle, ammo dump, an air drop, etc. Except in this case you have the advantage that probably every company level unit probably has basic logistical capabilities to recharge eclips in the field, and probably only takes a couple of minutes per, from a nuclear power source (probably backpack sized) and can recharge half a dozen or a dozen (or more) at a time.

Sure armor is much harder to replace, but again, you can just strap in to some new armor.

Sure the financial cost is potentially high (Eclip recharging based on estimated actual cost to the supplier should really only be 50-200cr per eclip PS, not 2,000+cr) as a tech character.

However, short of being killed, you have the potential to pretty easily go "all day long".

Low level spells aren't always effective. Blinding flash is negated by polarizing lens isn't it? Body armor will generally render that ineffective if so. Beyond that, not everyone may be looking in to right direction at the time, or are behind cover and then have the few melees to recover their sight. Magic net doesn't render someone paralized last I checked and if they have buddies you aren't about to waltz up and brain them at your liesure. etc.

Yes you need to always be creative no matter the character class you are playing, but if your GM has some common sense applied BOTH ways, a tech character frequently is going to be more useful in drawn out or frequently occuring "battles", though a magic character is potentially much more versatille and can do some pretty cool things.

[Shark_Force]

As for ammo, compared to a modern equipped soldier, your average grunt is probably lugging somewhere around 14-26 eclips. At 20-30 shots per, taking single shots at least, that comes out to something like 30 minutes to 2hrs of constant combat without letting up (if not longer since I doubt you are constantly pumping out single shots) and even using rapid fire or pulses, quite a long time of continuous combat.

For refilling on ammo...how do you think soldiers today get reammoed? Extra ammo in an APC, supply vehicle, ammo dump, an air drop, etc. Except in this case you have the advantage that probably every company level unit probably has basic logistical capabilities to recharge eclips in the field, and probably only takes a couple of minutes per, from a nuclear power source (probably backpack sized) and can recharge half a dozen or a dozen (or more) at a time.

Sure armor is much harder to replace, but again, you can just strap in to some new armor.

Sure the financial cost is potentially high (Eclip recharging based on estimated actual cost to the supplier should really only be 50-200cr per eclip PS, not 2,000+cr) as a tech character.

However, short of being killed, you have the potential to pretty easily go "all day long".

Low level spells aren't always effective. Blinding flash is negated by polarizing lens isn't it? Body armor will generally render that ineffective if so. Beyond that, not everyone may be looking in to right direction at the time, or are behind cover and then have the few melees to recover their sight. Magic net doesn't render someone paralized last I checked and if they have buddies you aren't about to waltz up and brain them at your liesure. etc.

Yes you need to always be creative no matter the character class you are playing, but if your GM has some common sense applied BOTH ways, a tech character frequently is going to be more useful in drawn out or frequently occuring "battles", though a magic character is potentially much more versatille and can do some pretty cool things.

well, so long as we're going to invent hypothetical situations where you get to just assume the tech characters have an essentially limitless supply of all resources sitting right next to them, and the magical characters do not, i guess you might have something.

on the other hand, magic nations could have PPE batteries supplied by a nation possessed of these theoretical infinite resources too. that doesn't make either scenario particularly plausible, or relevant to comparing adventuring groups of either tech or magic characters.

as far as blinding flash, it only mentions bionic, robotic, and cybernetic eyes. nothing about polarizing lenses providing protection.

as far as magic net, it hits that guy plus his friends (it's an AOE spell). and it makes you unable to act, which is not quite the same as paralysis (presumably you can wriggle around a bit), but doesn't do much to help when someone is sawing through your helmet with a vibro-blade and you're able to raise your middle finger slightly in response.

that said: so now we're presuming the mage has to fight half a dozen people in order for this scenario to take place? well, if you want to propose that an unlimited number of enemies with an unlimited amount of armor and an unlimited amount of e-clips and other ammunition can defeat a single mage, that's fine. but i'd have to be crazy to think that it's an indication that the mage is weak. frankly, if you put a tech character into the same situation, they're just as screwed.

there are plenty of extremely effective low level spells, and their cost really isn't that bad compared to what they do. use them well, and you will find that while your PPE is certainly limited, it is also certainly not cripplingly so to the point of making you unable to get through a single fight.

[Incriptus]

Stop being a puny human not every spell is for you!

Anyways it really depends on who your comparing the mage to. Obviously its not fair to compare my ley line walker to an unarmed person, Normal dude punches the line walker, Line walker puts up an armor of Ithan. Normal dude does nothing. Line walker casts an MD attack spell, Normal person dies.

Obviously not the same as an armed opponent. Even then most of you seem to have armed opponents who have a unlimited recharge capability. Well on that note lets give our Line Walker an unlimited recharge capability, put him near a leyline.

But to be honest you can't take your leyline's with out the way you can bring a Nuclear Power Plant, and Technowizard PPE batteries are too expensive [of course I guess spent as much on PPE batteries as you spent on a nuclear power plan . . .] I would like to have more wizard devices, not nessessarly just technowizardy but it is a good start.

[Subjugator]

20 - 30 e-clips?! You're looking at closer to 4-6. Read the character class descriptions!

Not only that, but 20 or 30 e-clips means a grand total of 40,000 to 60,000 credits to recharge those e-clips. Lot of dough - hope your GM isn't too stingy. That mage - *poof* recharged for free. No armor repair cost. No recharge repair cost. Just...done.

Add in his TW items that also 'recharge' for free, and you've got a guy with a lot of power that goes with him almost anywhere. If he's on or near a ley line, don't forget damage and power increases that result from it, in addition to free PPE.

/Sub

[azazel1024]

As a pointed out, the canon cost to recharge an eclip are ridiculous. Its a good 1,500-6,000% markup on the actual cost to generate the electricity needed to charge an eclip. And that is with a very generous and liberal estimation of how much energy an eclip actually contains (if you are conservative and think it is on the lower end, the markup is in the tens of thousands of percent).

Realistic recharge costs are in the range of 50-200cr per Eclip. Price a merchant is going to charge is unlikely to be more than a 2-5x markup at most (so 100-1,000cr maybe).

4-6 eclips gives you almost no payload in a fight. As I said, look at a modern soldier, they tend to carry in the range of 20 clips of ammunition. Odds are good a tech character in Rifts is also likely to be carry a similar number...and recharge costs would be much lower than stated in the books (MUCH lower), more like 2,000-20,000cr to recharge all 20 eclips.

For a soldier in ye old CS army, the cost is free, and the cost to the CS is minimal assuming you are using a nuclear power source to charge the batteries.

Back to the price to recharge, it is based off the energy content of an Eclip, ~10 gallons of gasoline used to generate electricty (or about the chemical energy of 3-4 gallons of gasoline if you could utilize 100% of the power from the gas, but generators are at best ~30% efficient). Price for gas the couple of places it is listed ranges from 5-20cr a gallon depending on where you are buying it. So around 50-200 credits in gas to recharge an Eclip, plus capitol costs of the generator and charger (which should both be very low).

If you use a nuclear generator, based on prices given, you'll probably pay around 2 million credits for something with about a 20 year life. If you only charge maybe 10 eclips a day, you can charge about 70,000 eclips over the life of the power source. That amoritized cost comes out to about 28 credits per eclip. Of course you are probably also using that nuclear power source to run your store's lights, AC, heating, maybe some street lights, possibly recharging electrically powered vehicles for yourself or customers (and charging them), etc. Even if you only recharged 1 per day, that is only 280 credits per eclip in amoritized costs.

So again, no matter how you slice it, recharge costs of 3,000cr per eclip are patently ridiculous by a good factor of 10. For that matter story limiting as well. You have to get quite a bit of loot as a character if you say burn through half a dozen eclips in an adventure. That is 18,000 credits you need to earn, just to recharge your eclips. Let alone repair armor, buy new gear, maybe fix a vehicle, pay bribes, buy food, etc, etc, etc.

[drewkitty ~..~]

20 - 30 e-clips?! You're looking at closer to 4-6. Read the character class descriptions!

Not only that, but 20 or 30 e-clips means a grand total of 40,000 to 60,000 credits to recharge those e-clips. Lot of dough - hope your GM isn't too stingy. That mage - *poof* recharged for free. No armor repair cost. No recharge repair cost. Just...done.

Add in his TW items that also 'recharge' for free, and you've got a guy with a lot of power that goes with him almost anywhere. If he's on or near a ley line, don't forget damage and power increases that result from it, in addition to free PPE.

/Sub

What are you willing to spend, your money or your life?
If you run out of ammo your life is just might what the cost will be.

I am all for being well supplied of ammo in whatever form it takes. Most of my chars have as much ammo as they can carry.


Jayne "Hero of Canton" Cobb said "Boy it sure would of been nice to have some grenades, don't you think."

Like in financial stuff you need a "diversified portfolio" of weapons and ammo.

[azazel1024]

Very agreed.

On top of that, Rifts/Palladium doesn't really have rules for laying down supressing fire, but you wanted to add an element of realism, that is exactly what any character would be doing. Think of how many bullets it takes to kill a person on a modern battlefield. Last I checked it was on the order of 1,000 bullets per death. Even with semi-automatic and single shot weapons the ratios in WWI and WWII were still pretty shocking for the number of bullets per death (I don't have figures handy, but I think they were on the order of a couple of hundred per death).

If you used the same ratio with supressing fire in Rifts, you'd need on average 50 Eclips per "kill". Even lower numbers of say 100 shots per kill, 5-6 Eclips would only net you maybe 1-2 kills.

Even if you ignore supressing fire as a mechanic or story element, there are some things that take a lot of killing in Rifts. Want to go up against an adult dragon that heals at 1d4x10MD per melee round (average 20). If you dish out 4 attacks per round doing 4d6 damage you'll average 46 damage per round assuming all shots hit, and the dragon will heal 20 of that on average.

For an Adult dragon with say 1,500MDC that'll take 57 rounds and ~230 shots to kill the dragon, or about 10 Eclips. Now granted a single person, with a single rifle and body armor just ain't going to stand up against a dragon. However the principle is there. Stand up (or even not so stand up) fight against a bunch of baddies and you'll burn through 5-6 eclips like they are nothing. I've had merc characters burn through over a dozen Eclips in a single fire fight (in addition to several grenades).

[Dunia]

My point is less throwing out high level spell after high level spell, but even lower level ones.

Consider fire bolt. It does 4D6 MD and I think costs 7PPE to cast.

Also Armor of Ithan I think is 10PPE and provides 10MDC per level.

So low level mage enters combat, has call it 120PPE.

First action, Armor of Ithan (lets call him a 4th level ley line walker) and he now has 40MDC. He throws out a couple of fire bolts (lets call it 2), takes a couple of hits and then recasts armor of ithan to protect himself again. He has now burned through 44PPE out of his 120 and has only delt 8D6 damage. Do that for a few more melee rounds and they've used it all up, maybe survived 4-5 melee rounds of "low level" combat and only dished out maybe 16D6 damage. If you roll well that might be enough to kill a couple of dead boys in medium armor.

Sure being a mage isn't simply about damaging spells. You have things like carpet of adhesion, obscuring spells, etc, etc, etc. However, a low level wizard on their own is no match for much more than maybe 1 or 2 guys in MDC body armor with hand weapons without either luck or very, very good spell selection (and a little luck). I am not trying to say that a level 1 ley line walker should trounce a CS mechanized company, but magic users are trumpted up as this ultra powerful characters, when with the strength of their spells (even used creatively) and the amount of PPE they cost and they have at their resources, make them little better than a non-magic user with some tech toys.

And if said Mage has a laser rifle, he can spend his 2-5 actions (3-6 if he has boxing) and take 1 full round and do a total of 9-18D6 in damage without spending PPE

[Dunia]

20 - 30 e-clips?! You're looking at closer to 4-6. Read the character class descriptions!

Not only that, but 20 or 30 e-clips means a grand total of 40,000 to 60,000 credits to recharge those e-clips. Lot of dough - hope your GM isn't too stingy. That mage - *poof* recharged for free. No armor repair cost. No recharge repair cost. Just...done.

Add in his TW items that also 'recharge' for free, and you've got a guy with a lot of power that goes with him almost anywhere. If he's on or near a ley line, don't forget damage and power increases that result from it, in addition to free PPE.

/Sub

What are you willing to spend, your money or your life?
If you run out of ammo your life is just might what the cost will be.

I am all for being well supplied of ammo in whatever form it takes. Most of my chars have as much ammo as they can carry.


Jayne "Hero of Canton" Cobb said "Boy it sure would of been nice to have some grenades, don't you think."

Like in financial stuff you need a "diversified portfolio" of weapons and ammo.

Or as in the campaign that i play in, the LL walker relies on his PPE to cast Armor if Ithan, Carpet of Adhession, Magic Net and Befuddle, then use his Laser Rifle and wilk laser pistol to do damage. When eclips are empty, he use sub particle acceleration to refil them after battle.

[Mack]

I don't agree that iconic mages only use magic. Look at his left hand.

[Subjugator]

20 - 30 e-clips?! You're looking at closer to 4-6. Read the character class descriptions!

Not only that, but 20 or 30 e-clips means a grand total of 40,000 to 60,000 credits to recharge those e-clips. Lot of dough - hope your GM isn't too stingy. That mage - *poof* recharged for free. No armor repair cost. No recharge repair cost. Just...done.

Add in his TW items that also 'recharge' for free, and you've got a guy with a lot of power that goes with him almost anywhere. If he's on or near a ley line, don't forget damage and power increases that result from it, in addition to free PPE.

/Sub

What are you willing to spend, your money or your life?
If you run out of ammo your life is just might what the cost will be.

I am all for being well supplied of ammo in whatever form it takes. Most of my chars have as much ammo as they can carry.

You can be all for it until the cows come home. Look at your starting equipment list.

/Sub

Jayne "Hero of Canton" Cobb said "Boy it sure would of been nice to have some grenades, don't you think."

Like in financial stuff you need a "diversified portfolio" of weapons and ammo.

[azazel1024]

Oh I agree with mages using tech whole heartedly (more magical weapons).

However, body armor interfers with spell casting. Its worse in PFRPG. You also have a stated dislike for technology for mages in several rifts books (not phobia, but it is at the very least disdane mentioned in several places).

[Shark_Force]

Oh I agree with mages using tech whole heartedly (more magical weapons).

However, body armor interfers with spell casting. Its worse in PFRPG. You also have a stated dislike for technology for mages in several rifts books (not phobia, but it is at the very least disdane mentioned in several places).

*heavy* and *environmental* body armor interferes with spellcasting. apparently this especially applies to armor made of metal or plastic (which just seems highly questionable that they would make such blanket statements, considering a TW could easily make a magical environmental body armor and several spellcasters are listed as using various armors that cover their entire body, and in some cases are noted as using those armors almost exclusively... such as, for example, the biomancer in south america, or the russian necromancer's bone armor).

not to mention the utter nonsense of the armor needing to cover less than 1/3 their body... apparently the chain mail bikini is alive and well in rifts, it's designed especially for casters!

really, i'm not a big fan of the limitations on wearing armor and casting spells they added. you can have an armor that doesn't impede your movement at all, and which many spells can easily pass through, and yet somehow it interferes with your ability to cast spells. doesn't make sense. at least if it was based on mobility penalties, it would make some sense.

[azazel1024]

My groups have always used the rule that anything 60MDC and under doesn't impede spell casting one iota. 61-80 only reduces range, damage and duration by 10% with a 01-05% chance of a missfire (PPE expended and nothing happens). 81-100 everything is reduced by 25% and a 01-15% chance of missfire and armor over 100MDC blocks magic completely.

Only exceptions are armors made out of living or formerly living things, or magically enchanted armor.

That way ye ole ley line walker can't get caught with his pants down and blasted to pieces by a grenade tossed at the group from ambush.

[drewkitty ~..~]

yea it should have been left out altogether, as it is written it makes humans the biggest magical punks/jokes in the megavers...and forever unable to cast a decent teleport spell without lining up 200 sacrifices while carrying more PPE Talismans than his weight probably allows on a full moon, in a nexus while the planets are all lined up at midnight. been frustrated with rifts magic system for years. Just decide if you want to use that rule or house rule it out of your game is what I say. I have ignored that rule for longer than it has existed. ^^

The mage would not need any killing to fill his talisman. Most mages can take a bit of PPE from a person. When living in a town or bigger civilized area, he could just browse PPE from the area. It might take more time to do it that way, but it is less costly in both life and money.

A single gem can be a Talisman battery. so the gem encrusted <item> can store more then just one Talisman worth of PPE.

[Shark_Force]

yea it should have been left out altogether, as it is written it makes humans the biggest magical punks/jokes in the megavers...and forever unable to cast a decent teleport spell without lining up 200 sacrifices while carrying more PPE Talismans than his weight probably allows on a full moon, in a nexus while the planets are all lined up at midnight. been frustrated with rifts magic system for years. Just decide if you want to use that rule or house rule it out of your game is what I say. I have ignored that rule for longer than it has existed. ^^

The mage would not need any killing to fill his talisman. Most mages can take a bit of PPE from a person. When living in a town or bigger civilized area, he could just browse PPE from the area. It might take more time to do it that way, but it is less costly in both life and money.

A single gem can be a Talisman battery. so the gem encrusted <item> can store more then just one Talisman worth of PPE.

not to mention that if you don't want to blow any money on gems, you could also just use rocks. or charms (like a charm bracelet). or any number of other small, light-weight objects.

[Shark_Force]

teleporting is actually one of the most game-changing forms of magic around. making it so that you specifically *can't* just drop in and level a small city is, imo, good design.

even with the restrictions that are on it right now, it's still an extremely powerful type of magic, and it changes the setting completely to have that kind of magic available at all. making it easily available and widespread would change things a lot.

[Galroth]

I think PPE gains should increase as the Mage goes up in level. So at level 2 you gain say 2d6 PPE, at level 3 you gain 3d6 and so on so that at high levels you'd have the ability to use spells that would be outside of the reach of low level casters.

[Lenwen]

Hi guys,
Can someone explain to me the P.P.E limit of P.P.E. x 3? Can I still cast high level spells that require over 500 P.P.E. if I only have 100 P.P.E. (300 P.P.E. max absorbed according to the limit)? And if so, How?

Thank you everyone.

Humans have two shoulders ..

Each shoulder has enough space for 1 energy sphere .. each containing 100 ppe per level of the caster ..

If you can find a 15th lvl caster .. that is 1,500 ppe over each shoulder .. or 3,000 PPE total (not including your personal PPE stores)

You can now cast absolutely ANY .. spell in the book of magic .. (sept Crimson Wall of Lictalon)

[Nightmask]

Hi guys,
Can someone explain to me the P.P.E limit of P.P.E. x 3? Can I still cast high level spells that require over 500 P.P.E. if I only have 100 P.P.E. (300 P.P.E. max absorbed according to the limit)? And if so, How?

Thank you everyone.

Humans have two shoulders ..

Each shoulder has enough space for 1 energy sphere .. each containing 100 ppe per level of the caster ..

If you can find a 15th lvl caster .. that is 1,500 ppe over each shoulder .. or 3,000 PPE total (not including your personal PPE stores)

You can now cast absolutely ANY .. spell in the book of magic .. (sept Crimson Wall of Lictalon)

Left off that while the max PPE for the Sphere is impressive without the PPE available to put into it when you cast it you're capped by what's available. So unless you're feeding off say a solar eclipse or just sacrificed someone with a massive PPE reserve you aren't going to fill either of those anywhere close to max capacity.

[Shark_Force]

Hi guys,
Can someone explain to me the P.P.E limit of P.P.E. x 3? Can I still cast high level spells that require over 500 P.P.E. if I only have 100 P.P.E. (300 P.P.E. max absorbed according to the limit)? And if so, How?

Thank you everyone.

Humans have two shoulders ..

Each shoulder has enough space for 1 energy sphere .. each containing 100 ppe per level of the caster ..

If you can find a 15th lvl caster .. that is 1,500 ppe over each shoulder .. or 3,000 PPE total (not including your personal PPE stores)

You can now cast absolutely ANY .. spell in the book of magic .. (sept Crimson Wall of Lictalon)

Left off that while the max PPE for the Sphere is impressive without the PPE available to put into it when you cast it you're capped by what's available. So unless you're feeding off say a solar eclipse or just sacrificed someone with a massive PPE reserve you aren't going to fill either of those anywhere close to max capacity.

actually, you just have to chain-cast it.

for example, if we suppose a theoretical caster of some sort or other with a base PPE of, say 50 (which is pretty low), and they know the energy sphere spell. they go to a ley line (being the most convenient source of essentially unlimited magical energy around - a nexus works too, but is more likely to have other people on it that may or may not be friendly).

they draw in their maximum PPE - either +150 or just 150 total, depending on how you view it (i view it as +150, personally). you spend that on an energy sphere, and you get either 30 or 80 PPE into the sphere (depending on interpretation).

then, depending on whether you allow ley lines to recharge base PPE (honestly, i can't really see why not), you either wait a while for PPE to refill or you start charging up again, until you can cast energy sphere again, while also drawing on the energy previously stored within the energy sphere, gaining either 30 or 80 PPE each time you do so.

note that the energy sphere spell specifically states you can draw on any amount of energy within it, no problem, so the cap can be bypassed with it. this works with a base PPE of as little as 41.

provided, of course, that you know the energy sphere spell also.

did i mention that shifters can learn this spell when they gain level 2, and that shifters will on average have something in the neighbourhood of 97.5 PPE at that level, assuming no pact, and no physical skills to boost PE?

(seriously, the significantly better spell selection on level-up is a massive advantage for the shifter).

[wonderdog]

Hi guys,
Can someone explain to me the P.P.E limit of P.P.E. x 3? Can I still cast high level spells that require over 500 P.P.E. if I only have 100 P.P.E. (300 P.P.E. max absorbed according to the limit)? And if so, How?

Thank you everyone.

Humans have two shoulders ..

Each shoulder has enough space for 1 energy sphere .. each containing 100 ppe per level of the caster ..

If you can find a 15th lvl caster .. that is 1,500 ppe over each shoulder .. or 3,000 PPE total (not including your personal PPE stores)

You can now cast absolutely ANY .. spell in the book of magic .. (sept Crimson Wall of Lictalon)

Left off that while the max PPE for the Sphere is impressive without the PPE available to put into it when you cast it you're capped by what's available. So unless you're feeding off say a solar eclipse or just sacrificed someone with a massive PPE reserve you aren't going to fill either of those anywhere close to max capacity.

actually, you just have to chain-cast it.

for example, if we suppose a theoretical caster of some sort or other with a base PPE of, say 50 (which is pretty low), and they know the energy sphere spell. they go to a ley line (being the most convenient source of essentially unlimited magical energy around - a nexus works too, but is more likely to have other people on it that may or may not be friendly).

they draw in their maximum PPE - either +150 or just 150 total, depending on how you view it (i view it as +150, personally). you spend that on an energy sphere, and you get either 30 or 80 PPE into the sphere (depending on interpretation).

then, depending on whether you allow ley lines to recharge base PPE (honestly, i can't really see why not), you either wait a while for PPE to refill or you start charging up again, until you can cast energy sphere again, while also drawing on the energy previously stored within the energy sphere, gaining either 30 or 80 PPE each time you do so.

note that the energy sphere spell specifically states you can draw on any amount of energy within it, no problem, so the cap can be bypassed with it. this works with a base PPE of as little as 41.

provided, of course, that you know the energy sphere spell also.

did i mention that shifters can learn this spell when they gain level 2, and that shifters will on average have something in the neighbourhood of 97.5 PPE at that level, assuming no pact, and no physical skills to boost PE?

(seriously, the significantly better spell selection on level-up is a massive advantage for the shifter).

you know, i never realized this neat little trick with energy spheres to make bigger and bigger energy spheres. interesting. isnt there a set amount of time it takes draw ppe from ley lines tho? wouldnt it be time consuming to make one of these "mega" spheres?