I have a question about the P.P.E. limit and high lv spells?

[Shark_Force]

you know, i never realized this neat little trick with energy spheres to make bigger and bigger energy spheres. interesting. isnt there a set amount of time it takes draw ppe from ley lines tho? wouldnt it be time consuming to make one of these "mega" spheres?

well, it's not instant by any means. you're capped at 10 per round for normal folks, or 20 per round for a ley line walker (double at a nexus) these days. barring special events, but let's face it... who wants to go to a nexus during a planetary conjunction when you've got good odds of needing to burn off all that extra PPE that you just gained because you were dumb enough to decide to be at ground zero when half a dozen monsters/demons/who-knows-what came through a random rift.

precisely how long it takes depends on what rules you're using and how much PPE you actually have as your base. for example, if you have 41 base PPE, and are allowed a total stored including that base of three times that (one interpretation), it will take you 13 melees to gain 3 PPE in the sphere, which means you'd need 33 times to get 99, or 34 times to get 100. so if you were somehow to get the spell at level 1, in that case it would take you 34 * 13 = 429 melees = 107.25 minutes = 1 hour, 47 minutes, and 15 seconds to fully charge to 100 PPE in the sphere. with a remainder of 2 PPE.

in a somewhat more probable scenario, if you're a level 5 shifter with around 140 base PPE (after a pact, assuming decent/average-ish rolls), if you assume you can store an *additional* 3 times (and that you either don't mind have 0 of your base or if your GM allows you to recharge your base from absorbed energy), you'd need to store up 500 PPE, which would require a total of 620 PPE in a single casting - sadly not possible in one shot for this character - or 740 in two shots (which is easily possible, without even dipping into base so you don't need to worry about whether you can recharge base from absorbed or not), taking 18.5 minutes, which is still not too bad.

in a third example, of a level 15 ley line walker with 100 base PPE (which is not so good for a ley line walker), assuming again triple absorbed energy compared to your base, and if you don't want to dip into your base, you would store up 180 per casting, requiring 9 total castings of the spell (with some overage). this would take 15 rounds per casting, times 9 is 135 melee rounds or almost 34 minutes (it would take any other mage with the same PPE at level 15 double that).

obviously, roughly double the time to make two spheres (one per shoulder), and of course you could arguably get some friends to carry around some shoulder globes for you as well (although it's not clear if they can give the PPE back to you, they should at least be able to draw on it and then let you absorb it from them). you still won't be lobbing around annihilation all over the place, but it does dramatically increase your capacity to cast spells.

and it also means that you can more easily make scrolls and talismans relatively easily, if you have the energy sphere spell.

now, this isn't likely to let you run around casting

[Failgoat]

you know, i never realized this neat little trick with energy spheres to make bigger and bigger energy spheres. interesting. isnt there a set amount of time it takes draw ppe from ley lines tho? wouldnt it be time consuming to make one of these "mega" spheres?

well, it's not instant by any means. you're capped at 10 per round for normal folks, or 20 per round for a ley line walker (double at a nexus) these days. barring special events, but let's face it... who wants to go to a nexus during a planetary conjunction when you've got good odds of needing to burn off all that extra PPE that you just gained because you were dumb enough to decide to be at ground zero when half a dozen monsters/demons/who-knows-what came through a random rift.

precisely how long it takes depends on what rules you're using and how much PPE you actually have as your base. for example, if you have 41 base PPE, and are allowed a total stored including that base of three times that (one interpretation), it will take you 13 melees to gain 3 PPE in the sphere, which means you'd need 33 times to get 99, or 34 times to get 100. so if you were somehow to get the spell at level 1, in that case it would take you 34 * 13 = 429 melees = 107.25 minutes = 1 hour, 47 minutes, and 15 seconds to fully charge to 100 PPE in the sphere. with a remainder of 2 PPE.

in a somewhat more probable scenario, if you're a level 5 shifter with around 140 base PPE (after a pact, assuming decent/average-ish rolls), if you assume you can store an *additional* 3 times (and that you either don't mind have 0 of your base or if your GM allows you to recharge your base from absorbed energy), you'd need to store up 500 PPE, which would require a total of 620 PPE in a single casting - sadly not possible in one shot for this character - or 740 in two shots (which is easily possible, without even dipping into base so you don't need to worry about whether you can recharge base from absorbed or not), taking 18.5 minutes, which is still not too bad.

in a third example, of a level 15 ley line walker with 100 base PPE (which is not so good for a ley line walker), assuming again triple absorbed energy compared to your base, and if you don't want to dip into your base, you would store up 180 per casting, requiring 9 total castings of the spell (with some overage). this would take 15 rounds per casting, times 9 is 135 melee rounds or almost 34 minutes (it would take any other mage with the same PPE at level 15 double that).

obviously, roughly double the time to make two spheres (one per shoulder), and of course you could arguably get some friends to carry around some shoulder globes for you as well (although it's not clear if they can give the PPE back to you, they should at least be able to draw on it and then let you absorb it from them). you still won't be lobbing around annihilation all over the place, but it does dramatically increase your capacity to cast spells.

and it also means that you can more easily make scrolls and talismans relatively easily, if you have the energy sphere spell.

now, this isn't likely to let you run around casting

but it IS an effective way to counter my long time complaint of too little P.P.E. Although, these spheres are visible arent they? It definitely A. marks one as a magic user and B. marks one as a "charged up" magic user. Might even be enough to bluff your way through some tight situations, especially if a "sniffer" could tell just how juiced up those energy spheres were.

[Shark_Force]

but it IS an effective way to counter my long time complaint of too little P.P.E. Although, these spheres are visible arent they? It definitely A. marks one as a magic user and B. marks one as a "charged up" magic user. Might even be enough to bluff your way through some tight situations, especially if a "sniffer" could tell just how juiced up those energy spheres were.

well, yes and no.

it provides a lot more PPE, *if* you know the spell. if too little PPE was a problem for you previously (though i consider it a feature, not a bug), this can certainly help.

that being said, it *is* a level 11 spell not found in the main rule book (although most likely anyone really serious about magic will have the book of magic), which means that unless you are a shifter, the odds of the average level 1 character learning the spell in the near future is pretty slim, unless you change up the difficulty of finding powerful spells for your campaign. but what you could also do is have a powerful mage who will give you a fully charged energy sphere... for a price. at which point, the question becomes "what would you do for a single use 500 PPE battery"? (but it could certainly help if the players have a powerful mage as a patron).

[Failgoat]

im not touching your response with a ten foot pole. it will only lead me to dark places lol....
thanks again for the heads up about the little energy sphere trick.

[Lenwen]

Hi guys,
Can someone explain to me the P.P.E limit of P.P.E. x 3? Can I still cast high level spells that require over 500 P.P.E. if I only have 100 P.P.E. (300 P.P.E. max absorbed according to the limit)? And if so, How?

Thank you everyone.

Humans have two shoulders ..

Each shoulder has enough space for 1 energy sphere .. each containing 100 ppe per level of the caster ..

If you can find a 15th lvl caster .. that is 1,500 ppe over each shoulder .. or 3,000 PPE total (not including your personal PPE stores)

You can now cast absolutely ANY .. spell in the book of magic .. (sept Crimson Wall of Lictalon)

Left off that while the max PPE for the Sphere is impressive without the PPE available to put into it when you cast it you're capped by what's available. So unless you're feeding off say a solar eclipse or just sacrificed someone with a massive PPE reserve you aren't going to fill either of those anywhere close to max capacity.

Wrong ..

A typical Ley Line walker (well go with 5th lvl) can in fact draw in extra PPE from a ley line (20 PPE) or a nexus (40 PPE) per melee round . The duration the ley line walker can hold an maintain that extra PPE is his PE attribute number in minutes .. (lets go with a PPE of 15 )


200 +15 (PE) = 3d6x10+20(bonus) +15(PE attribute)
215 PPE (lvl 1 now to incorporate the lvls)
+3d6 per lvl (we will go with +10 per lvl) = +40 PPE (for lvls 2-5)

5th lvl Ley Line Walker now has 255 PPE ..

Now the 5th lvl LLW decides to do the absorb PPE from a nexus trick .. he can hold the total of his own PPE (255) Plus that of 3 times the normal limit of his own PPE store (255x3 = 765 additional PPE to include his own base of 255 for a total of 1,020 PPE)

The LLW can now hold 1,020 total PPE for 15 minutes (his PE attribute number)


The Spell itself "Energy Sphere" takes 140 PPE to cast .. (so it works like 1,020 minus 140 = 980 PPE left with which to put into the Energy sphere .

Once the sphere is made .. you have 10 minutes with which to pump additional PPE into it before it is in essence .. "Sealed" from additional PPE imput ..

10 minutes = 40 melee rounds . (why is this important ?)

The LLW can use the Nexus to draw into himself 40 PPE per melee .. 39 melee's times 40 PPE =1,540 PPE. (Since we already established that the max amount of PPE the 5th lvl LLW can in fact have is 1,020 PPE .. he is fully recharged before the time limit of the Sphere prevents him from pumping additional PPE into the Sphere )

So now that the 5th lvl LLW is again .. Full of PPE .. he can then put forth another 1,020 PPE into the Energy Sphere.

Take note that the spells description clearly dictates that the MAX .. amount of PPE anyone can put into it is 100PPE per lvl of the caster. Which means .. the sphere before the 5th lvl LLW can pump more PPE into the Sphere is already sitting at 980 Total PPE .. Due to the spells law's .. it can only hold 500 total PPE as that is the max level of the 5th lvl LLW who cast this Energy Sphere.

In game terms anything over the 100 PPE per lvl of the caster pumped into the sphere .. is bledd off the moment the sphere is "closed" (by closed I mean by the time the 5th lvl LLW can not pump anymore PPE into it)

Which means the most a 5th lvl LLW can put into an Energy Sphere is 500 PPE.

But the 5th lvl LLW (with 15 PE attribute stat ) can have Double energy Sphere's (500x2= +1,000 PPE) this is not including the 5th lvl LLW's +1,020 PPE for 15 minutes ..

So it is completely within game mechanic's for a 5th lvl Ley Line Walker 9with a PE of 15, to have 2,000+ PPE ..

Hope this helps.

[Nightmask]

Hi guys,
Can someone explain to me the P.P.E limit of P.P.E. x 3? Can I still cast high level spells that require over 500 P.P.E. if I only have 100 P.P.E. (300 P.P.E. max absorbed according to the limit)? And if so, How?

Thank you everyone.

Humans have two shoulders ..

Each shoulder has enough space for 1 energy sphere .. each containing 100 ppe per level of the caster ..

If you can find a 15th lvl caster .. that is 1,500 ppe over each shoulder .. or 3,000 PPE total (not including your personal PPE stores)

You can now cast absolutely ANY .. spell in the book of magic .. (sept Crimson Wall of Lictalon)

Left off that while the max PPE for the Sphere is impressive without the PPE available to put into it when you cast it you're capped by what's available. So unless you're feeding off say a solar eclipse or just sacrificed someone with a massive PPE reserve you aren't going to fill either of those anywhere close to max capacity.

Wrong ..

A typical Ley Line walker (well go with 5th lvl) can in fact draw in extra PPE from a ley line (20 PPE) or a nexus (40 PPE) per melee round . The duration the ley line walker can hold an maintain that extra PPE is his PE attribute number in minutes .. (lets go with a PPE of 15 )


200 +15 (PE) = 3d6x10+20(bonus) +15(PE attribute)
215 PPE (lvl 1 now to incorporate the lvls)
+3d6 per lvl (we will go with +10 per lvl) = +40 PPE (for lvls 2-5)

5th lvl Ley Line Walker now has 255 PPE ..

Now the 5th lvl LLW decides to do the absorb PPE from a nexus trick .. he can hold the total of his own PPE (255) Plus that of 3 times the normal limit of his own PPE store (255x3 = 765 additional PPE to include his own base of 255 for a total of 1,020 PPE)

The LLW can now hold 1,020 total PPE for 15 minutes (his PE attribute number)


The Spell itself "Energy Sphere" takes 140 PPE to cast .. (so it works like 1,020 minus 140 = 980 PPE left with which to put into the Energy sphere .

Once the sphere is made .. you have 10 minutes with which to pump additional PPE into it before it is in essence .. "Sealed" from additional PPE imput ..

10 minutes = 40 melee rounds . (why is this important ?)

The LLW can use the Nexus to draw into himself 40 PPE per melee .. 39 melee's times 40 PPE =1,540 PPE. (Since we already established that the max amount of PPE the 5th lvl LLW can in fact have is 1,020 PPE .. he is fully recharged before the time limit of the Sphere prevents him from pumping additional PPE into the Sphere )

So now that the 5th lvl LLW is again .. Full of PPE .. he can then put forth another 1,020 PPE into the Energy Sphere.

Take note that the spells description clearly dictates that the MAX .. amount of PPE anyone can put into it is 100PPE per lvl of the caster. Which means .. the sphere before the 5th lvl LLW can pump more PPE into the Sphere is already sitting at 980 Total PPE .. Due to the spells law's .. it can only hold 500 total PPE as that is the max level of the 5th lvl LLW who cast this Energy Sphere.

In game terms anything over the 100 PPE per lvl of the caster pumped into the sphere .. is bledd off the moment the sphere is "closed" (by closed I mean by the time the 5th lvl LLW can not pump anymore PPE into it)

Which means the most a 5th lvl LLW can put into an Energy Sphere is 500 PPE.

But the 5th lvl LLW (with 15 PE attribute stat ) can have Double energy Sphere's (500x2= +1,000 PPE) this is not including the 5th lvl LLW's +1,020 PPE for 15 minutes ..

So it is completely within game mechanic's for a 5th lvl Ley Line Walker 9with a PE of 15, to have 2,000+ PPE ..

Hope this helps.

Yeah, sorry, but that's wrong. The spell explicitly states that you can only draw energy from a ley line nexus (not just any old ley line, must be a nexus) when at a peak energy moment, like an eclipse. You can't do it anytime you feel like. So you can't just cast the spell and vampire a ley line to 'top it off' as it were, you have to do it at a nexus at peak energy periods which means greater risk of a rift opening and possible danger. I believe there's also disagreement over the '3 times' whether it means '3 times total' vs 'total plus 3 times total' for max available PPE. I gather from the looks of it that the LLW was given a serious increase in PPE for the Rifts: Ultimate Edition as well.

[Lenwen]

Yeah, sorry, but that's wrong. The spell explicitly states

Your wrong again my friend.

Who is talking about absorbing PPE from the Nexus .. when I have blatently quoted Rifts Rue .. I shall now give you a Direct quote .. for how the LLW can in fact gain +40 PPE per melee round ..

Supplemental PPE :
The Ley Line Walker can also draw an extra 20 PPE per melee round when on a ley line and 40 when at a ley lines nexus point !

So you see my friend I used the LLW's innate ability to draw in more PPE .. (his limit) to then cast the spell .. and then again to fill it to capacity as per his lvl limit.

Either way 3+1 .. or 3 total ( I prefure the 3 total) the 5th lvl LLW can easily attain an create Energy Sphere's with 500 PPE in them .. (or simply make two of them for the 1,000 extra PPE)

[Nightmask]

Yeah, sorry, but that's wrong. The spell explicitly states

Your wrong again my friend.

Who is talking about absorbing PPE from the Nexus .. when I have blatently quoted Rifts Rue .. I shall now give you a Direct quote .. for how the LLW can in fact gain +40 PPE per melee round ..

Supplemental PPE :
The Ley Line Walker can also draw an extra 20 PPE per melee round when on a ley line and 40 when at a ley lines nexus point !

So you see my friend I used the LLW's innate ability to draw in more PPE .. (his limit) to then cast the spell .. and then again to fill it to capacity as per his lvl limit.

Meanwhile the Energy Sphere states the LLW must be drawing energy from a Nexus at peak energy to transfer energy into it, so the spell description explicitly rejects that scenario. The spell itself cannot be charged with external energy from a ley line, only from a Nexus at peak, no matter that the LLW can in normal circumstances recharge himself. So other than initially overcharging himself before casting the spell the LLW cannot, as per the spell description which lists all external sources of PPE, simply cast the spell and then act like a water hose filling up a swimming pool from any old Ley Line nearby. He must be using a Nexus at peak power to acquire the extra PPE beyond what you have when originally casting it.

So yes you are in fact wrong in this case, as the spell itself states all the cases of external PPE one can tap into and Ley Lines aren't on that list, only highly charged Nexus points.

[Lenwen]

Yeah, sorry, but that's wrong. The spell explicitly states

Your wrong again my friend.

Who is talking about absorbing PPE from the Nexus .. when I have blatently quoted Rifts Rue .. I shall now give you a Direct quote .. for how the LLW can in fact gain +40 PPE per melee round ..

Supplemental PPE :
The Ley Line Walker can also draw an extra 20 PPE per melee round when on a ley line and 40 when at a ley lines nexus point !

So you see my friend I used the LLW's innate ability to draw in more PPE .. (his limit) to then cast the spell .. and then again to fill it to capacity as per his lvl limit.

Meanwhile the Energy Sphere states the LLW must be drawing energy from a Nexus at peak energy to transfer energy into it, so the spell description explicitly rejects that scenario. The spell itself cannot be charged with external energy from a ley line, only from a Nexus at peak, no matter that the LLW can in normal circumstances recharge himself. So other than initially overcharging himself before casting the spell the LLW cannot, as per the spell description which lists all external sources of PPE, simply cast the spell and then act like a water hose filling up a swimming pool from any old Ley Line nearby. He must be using a Nexus at peak power to acquire the extra PPE beyond what you have when originally casting it.

So yes you are in fact wrong in this case, as the spell itself states all the cases of external PPE one can tap into and Ley Lines aren't on that list, only highly charged Nexus points.

Good thing that was what I had said tho .. (the nexus point) right ?



Not to mention the inital overcharging .. is all he would need at 5th lvl .. to max out the total PPE he can put into the spell as it stands anways .. (Limit of 100 PPE per lvl of the caster, being able to overcharge an hold for 15 minutes 1,000+ PPE means he can easily .. create as per the written rules .. a 500 PPE Energy Sphere ..

No matter how you want to nit pick the rules ..

[Galroth]

Yeah, sorry, but that's wrong. The spell explicitly states

Your wrong again my friend.

Who is talking about absorbing PPE from the Nexus .. when I have blatently quoted Rifts Rue .. I shall now give you a Direct quote .. for how the LLW can in fact gain +40 PPE per melee round ..

Supplemental PPE :
The Ley Line Walker can also draw an extra 20 PPE per melee round when on a ley line and 40 when at a ley lines nexus point !

So you see my friend I used the LLW's innate ability to draw in more PPE .. (his limit) to then cast the spell .. and then again to fill it to capacity as per his lvl limit.

Meanwhile the Energy Sphere states the LLW must be drawing energy from a Nexus at peak energy to transfer energy into it, so the spell description explicitly rejects that scenario. The spell itself cannot be charged with external energy from a ley line, only from a Nexus at peak, no matter that the LLW can in normal circumstances recharge himself. So other than initially overcharging himself before casting the spell the LLW cannot, as per the spell description which lists all external sources of PPE, simply cast the spell and then act like a water hose filling up a swimming pool from any old Ley Line nearby. He must be using a Nexus at peak power to acquire the extra PPE beyond what you have when originally casting it.

So yes you are in fact wrong in this case, as the spell itself states all the cases of external PPE one can tap into and Ley Lines aren't on that list, only highly charged Nexus points.

Which is for channeling PPE directly into the sphere, if the mage drew the PPE into himself and then channeled it into the sphere it doesn't matter where the PPE came from since at the point that it's going into the sphere it would be coming 'from the mage himself'.

[Shark_Force]

Yeah, sorry, but that's wrong. The spell explicitly states

Your wrong again my friend.

Who is talking about absorbing PPE from the Nexus .. when I have blatently quoted Rifts Rue .. I shall now give you a Direct quote .. for how the LLW can in fact gain +40 PPE per melee round ..

Supplemental PPE :
The Ley Line Walker can also draw an extra 20 PPE per melee round when on a ley line and 40 when at a ley lines nexus point !

So you see my friend I used the LLW's innate ability to draw in more PPE .. (his limit) to then cast the spell .. and then again to fill it to capacity as per his lvl limit.

Meanwhile the Energy Sphere states the LLW must be drawing energy from a Nexus at peak energy to transfer energy into it, so the spell description explicitly rejects that scenario. The spell itself cannot be charged with external energy from a ley line, only from a Nexus at peak, no matter that the LLW can in normal circumstances recharge himself. So other than initially overcharging himself before casting the spell the LLW cannot, as per the spell description which lists all external sources of PPE, simply cast the spell and then act like a water hose filling up a swimming pool from any old Ley Line nearby. He must be using a Nexus at peak power to acquire the extra PPE beyond what you have when originally casting it.

So yes you are in fact wrong in this case, as the spell itself states all the cases of external PPE one can tap into and Ley Lines aren't on that list, only highly charged Nexus points.

if we interpret it that literally, then you can still cast the spell using PPE from a regular ley line and just pump in your personal PPE (the mage that casts the spell is a valid source for the extra PPE), and/or blood sacrifice a bunch of dogs (huh, go figure, turns out summon and control canines is only *mostly* useless). furthermore, if you allow casters to recharge their own PPE from ley lines, they simply pump it up with the PPE after they internalize it.

and in fact, i've misread the spell... you don't need to recast it, you just cast and then you have 10 minutes to fill in whatever of the listed ways you want (which i personally think was never intended to be an exclusive list in the first place, but whatever).

[Lenwen]

So then by consensus ..

Is my way 100% legit .. or is it not legit ?

[Shark_Force]

So then by consensus ..

Is my way 100% legit .. or is it not legit ?

well, that depends on how literally you read it.

if you read it literally, then your way isn't *quite* allowed, you have to modify it slightly (absorb energy into self, *then* load into sphere).

but basically, you can do what you're describing, with at most a step inserted into the middle of the process for completeness, *provided you allow people to restore their base PPE from a ley line* (personally, i would, but i don't presume it to be universally used given the unclarity of the rules in this case).

[Lenwen]

So then by consensus ..

Is my way 100% legit .. or is it not legit ?

well, that depends on how literally you read it.

if you read it literally, then your way isn't *quite* allowed, you have to modify it slightly (absorb energy into self, *then* load into sphere).

but basically, you can do what you're describing, with at most a step inserted into the middle of the process for completeness, *provided you allow people to restore their base PPE from a ley line* (personally, i would, but i don't presume it to be universally used given the unclarity of the rules in this case).

I beleive that I did in fact put that step into the process ..

10 minutes = 40 melee's ..

39 of which are used to overcharge again .. (this is the part that you are speaking about I believe)

And then since the PPE is inside the LLW .. its his ppe not the Nexus points PPE .. which means he can in fact put it into the Energy Sphere .

I beleive I put that (tho not word for word ) in my first descriptive post. As I had my LLW overcharge originally .. then cast the spell .. pump in remaining PPE .. then overcharge again .. an then pump into the Sphere yet again .

Is this not what you are talking about ?

[Mack]

Wrong ..

A typical Ley Line walker (well go with 5th lvl) can in fact draw in extra PPE from a ley line (20 PPE) or a nexus (40 PPE) per melee round . The duration the ley line walker can hold an maintain that extra PPE is his PE attribute number in minutes .. (lets go with a PPE of 15 )


200 +15 (PE) = 3d6x10+20(bonus) +15(PE attribute)
215 PPE (lvl 1 now to incorporate the lvls)
+3d6 per lvl (we will go with +10 per lvl) = +40 PPE (for lvls 2-5)

5th lvl Ley Line Walker now has 255 PPE ..

Bad math. If you're going to assume a max roll initally, then you should use max rolls throughout. Not switch to average rolls part way through.

The average of 3D6x10 = 105. (The odds of a max roll is less than half of a percent... 0.463%)
Plus 20 (bonus) = 125
Plus 15 (PE) = 140
Plus 3D6 per level (assume 10 each) = 180

[Lenwen]

Wrong ..

A typical Ley Line walker (well go with 5th lvl) can in fact draw in extra PPE from a ley line (20 PPE) or a nexus (40 PPE) per melee round . The duration the ley line walker can hold an maintain that extra PPE is his PE attribute number in minutes .. (lets go with a PPE of 15 )


200 +15 (PE) = 3d6x10+20(bonus) +15(PE attribute)
215 PPE (lvl 1 now to incorporate the lvls)
+3d6 per lvl (we will go with +10 per lvl) = +40 PPE (for lvls 2-5)

5th lvl Ley Line Walker now has 255 PPE ..

Bad math. If you're going to assume a max roll initally, then you should use max rolls throughout. Not switch to average rolls part way through.

The average of 3D6x10 = 105. (The odds of a max roll is less than half of a percent... 0.463%)
Plus 20 (bonus) = 125
Plus 15 (PE) = 140
Plus 3D6 per level (assume 10 each) = 180

The math was not bad. Math was good. It was as you said I should have stayed max .. or average .. threw out.

Good idea I will have to use that in my future posts.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I am not disputing the math. Buuuuuut....

Here is the Big problem I see.
The text of energy sphere does not say that it will not accept input of PPE after the 10 min.
So the ç®@π I'm hearing here about having to have ALL the PPE to put into it in that 10 min. are ƒ¨Çˆ˜˝ house rules presented as canon.
It is like saying that a kit car is a Bugatii Veron.

The only things you have to do, as per the text, is put some amount of PPE into the ES so it does not fade away.

Note: the only two books I have ES in are the 1st printing of RBoM and the 1st printing of RFoM.

[Mack]

Wrong ..

A typical Ley Line walker (well go with 5th lvl) can in fact draw in extra PPE from a ley line (20 PPE) or a nexus (40 PPE) per melee round . The duration the ley line walker can hold an maintain that extra PPE is his PE attribute number in minutes .. (lets go with a PPE of 15 )


200 +15 (PE) = 3d6x10+20(bonus) +15(PE attribute)
215 PPE (lvl 1 now to incorporate the lvls)
+3d6 per lvl (we will go with +10 per lvl) = +40 PPE (for lvls 2-5)

5th lvl Ley Line Walker now has 255 PPE ..

Bad math. If you're going to assume a max roll initally, then you should use max rolls throughout. Not switch to average rolls part way through.

The average of 3D6x10 = 105. (The odds of a max roll is less than half of a percent... 0.463%)
Plus 20 (bonus) = 125
Plus 15 (PE) = 140
Plus 3D6 per level (assume 10 each) = 180

The math was not bad. Math was good. It was as you said I should have stayed max .. or average .. threw out.

Good idea I will have to use that in my future posts.

Apparently you have a narrower definition of math than I.

[Shark_Force]

So then by consensus ..

Is my way 100% legit .. or is it not legit ?

well, that depends on how literally you read it.

if you read it literally, then your way isn't *quite* allowed, you have to modify it slightly (absorb energy into self, *then* load into sphere).

but basically, you can do what you're describing, with at most a step inserted into the middle of the process for completeness, *provided you allow people to restore their base PPE from a ley line* (personally, i would, but i don't presume it to be universally used given the unclarity of the rules in this case).

I beleive that I did in fact put that step into the process ..

10 minutes = 40 melee's ..

39 of which are used to overcharge again .. (this is the part that you are speaking about I believe)

the trick is that the overcharging isn't technically allowed, if you read the spell very literally. the mage is a valid source, the energy from a ley line or ley line nexus is not except for a ley line nexus during peak energy periods (you could argue midnight and noon i suppose?). as such, you can't overcharge yourself, and use the overcharged PPE to fill the sphere (though you *can* use it to cast the initial spell).

however, if you allow drained PPE to recharge personal PPE (that is, if you allow people with 0 PPE to go up to their max base allowed on a ley line and keep it indefinitely instead of for PE minutes), not justfor o vercharging), you could recharge your PPE, load that into the sphere (because, once again, the mage is an allowed source), recharge your PPE again, load that into the sphere again, etc.

if you don't allow PPE drawn from external sources to replenish your personal base, you'd have to use other sources of PPE including blood sacrifices, other mages, and a couple of other things allowed in the spell description.

it's a very minor technical point, and it works out essentially the same if you allow recharging, not just supercharging.

[Nightmask]

I am not disputing the math. (there was no glaring problems with it.) Buuuuuut....

Here is the Big problem I see.
The text of energy sphere does not say that it will not accept input of PPE after the 10 min.
So the ç®@π I'm hearing here about having to have ALL the PPE to put into it in that 10 min. are ƒ¨Çˆ˜˝ house rules presented as canon.
It is like saying that a kit car is a Bugatii Veron.

The only things you have to do, as per the text, is put some amount of PPE into the ES so it does not fade away.

Note: the only two books I have ES in are the 1st printing of RBoM and the 1st printing of RFoM.

Nothing about the text says you can add any energy to the sphere either, so it's as much a house rule being presented as canon that you can keep putting energy into the sphere as to claim that one can only put energy into it during the 10 minutes after creation. While it's unlikely it was intended that the sphere was open-ended (otherwise why have the 10 minute restriction in the first place? ) if one's going to quibble about the point as to whether or not you can put more energy into it after the 10 minutes are up there is zero weight to the point of insisting one can other than personal opinion and desire, the spell itself certainly doesn't give one anything to justify either interpretation given the text presented.

[drewkitty ~..~]

If I have a quibble, it is when anybody is presenting their HR's as C, by omitting any comment that what is being said is a HR.

Does the following in proper form,

The way I see it, the mage only needs to have 151 PPE. The PPE to cast the spell and 1 PPE to stabilize the spell to keep it from fading away. With the mage being able to add or take away from the ES for the duration of the spell.


See said phase that says I'm not proclaiming this to be canon. It's simple to add to posts what what you are saying is not canon. It has a secondary use of also covering what you just said when their is no canon for what is being discussed.

Since none of what I said in the example is not covered by canon text in the spell, it is non-canon. So it was put into the same paragraph.

I know i know you all have made your own HR and like to stick with them. But at times you all do present your HR's as canon because you honestly think that they are.

A good part of the time I put into long posts goes into seeing if I am canonly correct by searching the books.
If I am wrong, as proved by a given book page paragraph listing. I do concede.

No, I do not concede when PB admits they are intentionally being wrong.


As to why it need some PPE in it to exist, my speculation is that the thought form that shaped it needs for it to hold some PPE or it losses it's shape, it's "Meaning for existence". Therefore, it fades away if it is not holding some PPE.
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S_F & NM you are both being rules lawer-ish about the type of PPE can be put into a ES.
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I never did like the ES spell as it stands in the RFoM and RBoM. So that is why I made a Variant with the spell modification rules in TtGD that is not just barely what spells should be.

[magictiger]

I never did like the ES spell as it stands in the RFoM and RBoM. So that is why I made a Variant with the spell modification rules in TtGD that is not just barely what spells should be.

What is your variant Energy Sphere spell like? Im looking for other areas of P.P.E. that will help in casting high level spells. Thank you.

[Shark_Force]

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S_F & NM you are both being rules lawer-ish about the type of PPE can be put into a ES.
--------------

i've mentioned several times that that's what it says if you read it literally. i don't recall saying that's how *i* would rule it, ever. but i had it pointed out to me that that's what it said, so i merely adjusted my method so that the presented argument would still allow for filling up the sphere.

frankly, i never even noticed what the spell technically said about only allowing certain PPE sources until it was pointed out... but even if it is, i can still work around it, so it's not a big deal.

[Nightmask]

--------------
S_F & NM you are both being rules lawer-ish about the type of PPE can be put into a ES.
--------------

So let's see if I understand your point, it's considered rule-lawyerish and munchkining to try and exploit the language of the rules to try and give your character an added advantage over what was intended which is bad but it's also being bad and rules-lawyerish to point out where a rule clearly limits someone while they insist 'no that very explicit set of restrictions on how one may do it doesn't really exist and I should be able to do anything even when it's clearly denied by the rules'? Is that about it? Sorry but when like in this case the range of what's allowed is clearly spelled out it's not being rules-lawyerish to point out 'that's clearly not allowed', rules-lawyerish is 'no the text doesn't ban me from doing that uber-powered thing so I insist I can do it anyway'.

Rules laywers say that 'well the text don't say I can't so I insist I can', it's GMish to insist 'sorry but no matter how much you insist otherwise in your efforts to super-power your character that action is explicitly banned by the rules'. I can't imagine how someone would miss the 'you can only use these sources to power up this spell', given how everyone seems to go over everything with a fine-toothed comb, but the restrictions are definitely there.

It's also pretty funny for someone who's so adamant about 'everything has to be done by the rules no exceptions!' to accuse others of being 'rules-lawyerish' when any other time you'd be arguing every line of text that states 'no you can't do that it's right there in the book'.

[Lenwen]

the trick is that the overcharging isn't technically allowed, if you read the spell very literally. the mage is a valid source, the energy from a ley line or ley line nexus is not except for a ley line nexus during peak energy periods (you could argue midnight and noon i suppose?). as such, you can't overcharge yourself, and use the overcharged PPE to fill the sphere (though you *can* use it to cast the initial spell).

I see what your saying. But my question to you is if you are not allowed to overcharge the PPE into yourself .. to then later pump it into the spell .. Does that not count ?

The PPE is coming from the mage at that point .. not anything else.

Or are you saying that the mage can only overcharge up to his base PPE .. an push it into the spell ?

If that is the case then the mage will be able to do that multiple times prior to the 10 minute cut off limit yes ?

[drewkitty ~..~]

I never did like the ES spell as it stands in the RFoM and RBoM. So that is why I made a Variant with the spell modification rules in TtGD that is not just barely what spells should be.

What is your variant Energy Sphere spell like? Im looking for other areas of P.P.E. that will help in casting high level spells. Thank you.

Golden Sphere
Level 12
Range: 100 feet
Duration: 2 days per level
Saving Throws: none
P.P.E.: 120 per duration and what is to be stored
This spell creates a golden sphere that can store up to 200 P.P.E. per level of spell caster. Each time the duration comes to an end, the spell takes 120 P.P.E. from what has been stored in it and uses that 120 P.P.E. to continue functioning. This will continue till all stored P.P.E. is used up or by the mage using the P.P.E. himself or to another if it is given to him.

--------------
S_F & NM you are both being rules lawer-ish about the type of PPE can be put into a ES.
--------------

i've mentioned several times that that's what it says if you read it literally. i don't recall saying that's how *i* would rule it, ever. but i had it pointed out to me that that's what it said, so i merely adjusted my method so that the presented argument would still allow for filling up the sphere.

frankly, i never even noticed what the spell technically said about only allowing certain PPE sources until it was pointed out... but even if it is, i can still work around it, so it's not a big deal.

I do not that I do note how I would rule about sort things in my games when they differ from canon.
*pokes open the SF house Rules book to take a peek*

[Nightmask]

the trick is that the overcharging isn't technically allowed, if you read the spell very literally. the mage is a valid source, the energy from a ley line or ley line nexus is not except for a ley line nexus during peak energy periods (you could argue midnight and noon i suppose?). as such, you can't overcharge yourself, and use the overcharged PPE to fill the sphere (though you *can* use it to cast the initial spell).

I see what your saying. But my question to you is if you are not allowed to overcharge the PPE into yourself .. to then later pump it into the spell .. Does that not count ?

The PPE is coming from the mage at that point .. not anything else.

Or are you saying that the mage can only overcharge up to his base PPE .. an push it into the spell ?

If that is the case then the mage will be able to do that multiple times prior to the 10 minute cut off limit yes ?

No, the spell specifically states how you can use ley line energy to fill the sphere, constantly charging yourself up isn't one of them. So while you can overcharge prior to the casting, while the sphere is in its active phase you can't continue to recharge from the ley line and channel it into the spell only from a nexus at high energy. Something about the spell just actively interferes with you doing the 'funnel ley line energy into myself and back out into the sphere' stunt.

[Lenwen]

the trick is that the overcharging isn't technically allowed, if you read the spell very literally. the mage is a valid source, the energy from a ley line or ley line nexus is not except for a ley line nexus during peak energy periods (you could argue midnight and noon i suppose?). as such, you can't overcharge yourself, and use the overcharged PPE to fill the sphere (though you *can* use it to cast the initial spell).

I see what your saying. But my question to you is if you are not allowed to overcharge the PPE into yourself .. to then later pump it into the spell .. Does that not count ?

The PPE is coming from the mage at that point .. not anything else.

Or are you saying that the mage can only overcharge up to his base PPE .. an push it into the spell ?

If that is the case then the mage will be able to do that multiple times prior to the 10 minute cut off limit yes ?

No, the spell specifically states how you can use ley line energy to fill the sphere, constantly charging yourself up isn't one of them. So while you can overcharge prior to the casting, while the sphere is in its active phase you can't continue to recharge from the ley line and channel it into the spell only from a nexus at high energy. Something about the spell just actively interferes with you doing the 'funnel ley line energy into myself and back out into the sphere' stunt.

And the limit is only 100PPE per lvl ..

So literally only once is all you need to overcharge to max it out as it is.

[Shark_Force]

or, the mage could use better spells, or layers of defensive spells.

on top of the armor of ithan (which is itself on top of a regular suit of armor suitable for a caster), the mage could layer, say, a targeted deflection and turn your attacks back on you. they could layer whirling blades, which grants them an automatic parry against ranged attacks. any of these sorts of options will greatly increase the duration of protection afforded by their armor.

then, for offense, they can use some of the efficient damaging spells... throwing stones, for example, or various blade spells (some of which also grant parry attempts vs ranged attack). or, depending on the caster, they might have access to something that stores PPE (such as an energy sphere, available to any level 2 shifter, or minions that they can draw PPE from, or a ley line, or one of the various PPE batteries found throughout the game), have some sort of magic item to use (bone magic, bio-mancy, techno-wizardry, bio-wizardry, herbalism, and a few other types of magic are all quite good for this sort of thing, but even regular magic has a few), or even just pull out their energy rifle and shoot you (or attack with other types of spells, like domination).

fire bolt is not really a very good spell. so what? use something else. you might as well complain that some energy pistols deal 1d6 damage, have poor range and ammo, and are generally not very good at all. that may be true, but that doesn't mean there isn't another pistol out there which deals 4d6 damage per shot, has a range almost as good as some poor quality rifles, and has as many or more shots as the crappy one.

fire bolt has it's uses. they are very limited, and most of the time it will be an extremely bad choice to use that spell (some creatures might take double or more damage from fire, or regenerate any damage that isn't fire, or you might want to strike immediately instead of casting a spell this action and attacking the next, such as when facing enemies with no armor, so i can't quite say it's *never* worthwhile to cast the spell), and if that was the only spell in the book, it might be a problem.

but that's the nice thing about magic. if you have done your homework, you often will have several options for dealing with any given situation.