Naturals and Geniuses: How far can they go?

[Nightmask]

Hmmm, way back when Palladium was answering personal questions I apparently asked about a PCC like a Psi-Tech changing to another class like a Techno-Wizard, the response back from Palladium was that yes it was possible. Signed by Rodney Stott.

[Nightmask]

So, on topic given the N&G can spend PPE to improve skills I have to wonder why one can't spend PPE to improve skills that aren't based on percentage checks like HtH and Weapon Proficiencies. Particularly when we've got Weapons Expert and Exceptional PS/PP/PE demonstrating the character's putting his focus into these more physical skills that aren't centered around percentile checks. Given a PPE point provides a 3% increase to a stat and these physical skills are based around the d20 which is a 5% range roughly ever 2 PPE gives a +1 to a stat like improving that auto-dodge or Maintain Balance, with a +3 for 5 PPE (5 PPE= 15% bonus, 15% bonus/5=+3 ).

[Nightmask]

I guess that the question is, do you want to change class? Or do you just want your Natural to be able to cast Blinding Flash without having to change class?

Changing class, I could see, you would just not be able to use your PPE to get Natural powers anymore, because you have learned to shape and harness it in a different way. Even to think of it in a different way. A Mage's PPE is under his control at all times, merely thinking about it gives him a connection to the waves and eddies as it cycles through his aura. It would take the standard amount of years to learn to see PPE in that way, and then to use it in that way. Any spells learned are simply patterns, often quite exacting patterns, in which you learn to shape that PPE. Not to mention building up the PPE with all that you have spent.
(This is personal flavor text, but how I would rule it.)

For just being able to cast a couple of spells, yeah, sure (me ruling again), it'll cost a bit of sacrifice to get the base ability, the PPE cost would be doubled, and any spell would take the place of a skill from normal level progression, or the standard time to learn new skills. (about six months for most of the Megaverse.) I don't know enough canon to say if this is by the book, but this is how I would do it. Only for the Natural, though, and that making it more of a super parapsychologist than a cross-class mage.

On the fly

Connected to the Spiritual
PPE Cost: 16
Limitations Not available until 3rd level
The character can learn to cast spells as though he were a Sorcerer 2 levels lower than his level as a Natural/Genius.
All spells learned cost twice the PPE listed for a Wizard to use them. This power also grants the character the ability to detect ley lines and magical energy at 1/4 the range of a Sorcerer. The Natural/Genius can draw PPE from a ley line or ley line nexus as described in the Nightbane Magic section, but is affected by Ley Lines like an unshielded sensitive.

Hmmmm, I like that suggestion. I'd just remove that double cost for casting spells since outside of people casting Necromancy spells when not being necromancers no one else suffers such doubled costs particularly across the board. Plus you're losing base PPE and it doesn't allow for gaining new PPE with level advancement like regular mages.

[Damian Magecraft]

I guess that the question is, do you want to change class? Or do you just want your Natural to be able to cast Blinding Flash without having to change class?

Changing class, I could see, you would just not be able to use your PPE to get Natural powers anymore, because you have learned to shape and harness it in a different way. Even to think of it in a different way. A Mage's PPE is under his control at all times, merely thinking about it gives him a connection to the waves and eddies as it cycles through his aura. It would take the standard amount of years to learn to see PPE in that way, and then to use it in that way. Any spells learned are simply patterns, often quite exacting patterns, in which you learn to shape that PPE. Not to mention building up the PPE with all that you have spent.
(This is personal flavor text, but how I would rule it.)

For just being able to cast a couple of spells, yeah, sure (me ruling again), it'll cost a bit of sacrifice to get the base ability, the PPE cost would be doubled, and any spell would take the place of a skill from normal level progression, or the standard time to learn new skills. (about six months for most of the Megaverse.) I don't know enough canon to say if this is by the book, but this is how I would do it. Only for the Natural, though, and that making it more of a super parapsychologist than a cross-class mage.

On the fly

Connected to the Spiritual
PPE Cost: 16
Limitations Not available until 3rd level
The character can learn to cast spells as though he were a Sorcerer 2 levels lower than his level as a Natural/Genius.
All spells learned cost twice the PPE listed for a Wizard to use them. This power also grants the character the ability to detect ley lines and magical energy at 1/4 the range of a Sorcerer. The Natural/Genius can draw PPE from a ley line or ley line nexus as described in the Nightbane Magic section, but is affected by Ley Lines like an unshielded sensitive.

Hmmmm, I like that suggestion. I'd just remove that double cost for casting spells since outside of people casting Necromancy spells when not being necromancers no one else suffers such doubled costs particularly across the board. Plus you're losing base PPE and it doesn't allow for gaining new PPE with level advancement like regular mages.

actually... tattoos cost double to activate for non-tattoo men
the double cost also applies to techno-wizards when casting straight
also (iirc) line magic is double for non line drawers
the precedent is there.

[Nightmask]

Hmmmm, I like that suggestion. I'd just remove that double cost for casting spells since outside of people casting Necromancy spells when not being necromancers no one else suffers such doubled costs particularly across the board. Plus you're losing base PPE and it doesn't allow for gaining new PPE with level advancement like regular mages.

actually... tattoos cost double to activate for non-tattoo men
the double cost also applies to techno-wizards when casting straight
also (iirc) line magic is double for non line drawers
the precedent is there.

But are rare exceptions rather than a blanket rule, and as someone who's a 'natural' at it added costs kind of conflicts with the concept particularly when they're lacking the kind of PPE levels of someone who has the focused training in it instead of having it come naturally to them in a way much like a Mystic or magical race like dragons. So as a natural learning the magic comes easy to them but they haven't got the higher PPE that comes to the normal who's dedicated himself to training himself up.

[Damian Magecraft]

Hmmmm, I like that suggestion. I'd just remove that double cost for casting spells since outside of people casting Necromancy spells when not being necromancers no one else suffers such doubled costs particularly across the board. Plus you're losing base PPE and it doesn't allow for gaining new PPE with level advancement like regular mages.

actually... tattoos cost double to activate for non-tattoo men
the double cost also applies to techno-wizards when casting straight
also (iirc) line magic is double for non line drawers
the precedent is there.

But are rare exceptions rather than a blanket rule, and as someone who's a 'natural' at it added costs kind of conflicts with the concept particularly when they're lacking the kind of PPE levels of someone who has the focused training in it instead of having it come naturally to them in a way much like a Mystic or magical race like dragons. So as a natural learning the magic comes easy to them but they haven't got the higher PPE that comes to the normal who's dedicated himself to training himself up.

well my point was that the doubled cost is more prevalent than you posited and therefore not a valid argument for dis-allowance.
Your other points for the case of standard cost however are of a more sound footing.
I agree that the Double cost is a tad excessive.
However it can be argued (by some) that the wording of this new ability implies that ppe gains would be identical to those of a mage 2 levels lower than the naturals actual level. i think the write up is too vague and leaves way too much open for interpretation and therefore needs further refinement. Should the ppe gains be as posited then one could argue that the doubled spell cost would not be uncalled for (turning the natural into a D&D 1e Bard would not be beneficial to the game IMO).

[Nightmask]

well my point was that the doubled cost is more prevalent than you posited and therefore not a valid argument for dis-allowance.
Your other points for the case of standard cost however are of a more sound footing.
I agree that the Double cost is a tad excessive.
However it can be argued (by some) that the wording of this new ability implies that ppe gains would be identical to those of a mage 2 levels lower than the naturals actual level. i think the write up is too vague and leaves way too much open for interpretation and therefore needs further refinement. Should the ppe gains be as posited then one could argue that the doubled spell cost would not be uncalled for (turning the natural into a D&D 1e Bard would not be beneficial to the game IMO).

I don't think it's a valid comparison to compare the idea with the 1st edition bard from AD&D (and the 3rd edition would be a more suited negative comparison since they actually are a little bit of everything including capable of casting clerical magics and wizard magics ). The idea of the doubled cost still wouldn't be called for given the PPE advancement isn't that much per level and even if comparable to the average mage again there shouldn't be an increased cost for spellcasting when they aren't acquiring heavy advantages over anyone. A few minor psionics and maybe at a hefty cost in PPE for spells to add in one of the other N&G abilities. It would require some refinement but an actual Special Ability to be naturally attuned to magic and able to work spells wouldn't be too untoward for those who'd insist on a permanent PPE loss for the character to gain spellcasting ability.

[Damian Magecraft]

well my point was that the doubled cost is more prevalent than you posited and therefore not a valid argument for dis-allowance.
Your other points for the case of standard cost however are of a more sound footing.
I agree that the Double cost is a tad excessive.
However it can be argued (by some) that the wording of this new ability implies that ppe gains would be identical to those of a mage 2 levels lower than the naturals actual level. i think the write up is too vague and leaves way too much open for interpretation and therefore needs further refinement. Should the ppe gains be as posited then one could argue that the doubled spell cost would not be uncalled for (turning the natural into a D&D 1e Bard would not be beneficial to the game IMO).

I don't think it's a valid comparison to compare the idea with the 1st edition bard from AD&D (and the 3rd edition would be a more suited negative comparison since they actually are a little bit of everything including capable of casting clerical magics and wizard magics ). The idea of the doubled cost still wouldn't be called for given the PPE advancement isn't that much per level and even if comparable to the average mage again there shouldn't be an increased cost for spellcasting when they aren't acquiring heavy advantages over anyone. A few minor psionics and maybe at a hefty cost in PPE for spells to add in one of the other N&G abilities. It would require some refinement but an actual Special Ability to be naturally attuned to magic and able to work spells wouldn't be too untoward for those who'd insist on a permanent PPE loss for the character to gain spellcasting ability.

This statement shows a a lack of understanding on the nature; power; and impact of spell casting. with just 6 spells (1/2 of what a 1st level mage starts with) A caster can severely unbalance a game.

[Nightmask]

I don't think it's a valid comparison to compare the idea with the 1st edition bard from AD&D (and the 3rd edition would be a more suited negative comparison since they actually are a little bit of everything including capable of casting clerical magics and wizard magics ). The idea of the doubled cost still wouldn't be called for given the PPE advancement isn't that much per level and even if comparable to the average mage again there shouldn't be an increased cost for spellcasting when they aren't acquiring heavy advantages over anyone. A few minor psionics and maybe at a hefty cost in PPE for spells to add in one of the other N&G abilities. It would require some refinement but an actual Special Ability to be naturally attuned to magic and able to work spells wouldn't be too untoward for those who'd insist on a permanent PPE loss for the character to gain spellcasting ability.

This statement shows a a lack of understanding on the nature; power; and impact of spell casting. with just 6 spells (1/2 of what a 1st level mage starts with) A caster can severely unbalance a game.

If that were so mages wouldn't even be an available class because they're so 'unbalanced', yet clearly they are. That's giving way too much credit to the low level spells and really dismissing the capabilities of everyone else. In the Nightbane setting in particular I've seen regular complaint how the mages can't measure up next to a Nightbane or other supernatural creature. If a Sorcerer isn't unbalanced a Natural and Genius spellcaster isn't going to be unbalanced either. So I would have to take umbrage at the suggestion that I 'lack the understanding of the nature, power, and impact of spell-casting'. Mayhap you're crediting it with more value than it has relative to everything else.

[Shark_Force]

i'm not certain how you can look through the low-level spells and think "these aren't major game-changes at all".

frankly, even something as simple as blinding flash is extremely strong.

[Nightmask]

i'm not certain how you can look through the low-level spells and think "these aren't major game-changes at all".

frankly, even something as simple as blinding flash is extremely strong.

So's a flash-bang grenade, doesn't make it game-altering just game balancing. For the non-Nightbane magic and high technology are the only way the relatively weak physical creatures like humans can compete. Same holds for many of the rest of Palladium's settings. A N&G isn't going to have many things that will make it significantly more capable than your average mage, if it does the character sacrificed a lot of PPE for it making them less effective as a mage.

[Nekira Sudacne]

While I still don't think they can in the first place, game-balance wise, a natural genus with magic is FAR less unbalancing than a Nightbane Mystic or Sorcerrer. If either of those are allowed, it's hardly a problem.

[Shark_Force]

While I still don't think they can in the first place, game-balance wise, a natural genus with magic is FAR less unbalancing than a Nightbane Mystic or Sorcerrer. If either of those are allowed, it's hardly a problem.

now that is a point i wouldn't argue.

nightbane + magic is definitely going to be extremely powerful. in a game that includes such a character, heck, just let the natural buy full magical skills and increase all their exp per level charts by 10% or something like that. they'll need it just to have any hope at all of keeping up.

[Damian Magecraft]

While I still don't think they can in the first place, game-balance wise, a natural genus with magic is FAR less unbalancing than a Nightbane Mystic or Sorcerrer. If either of those are allowed, it's hardly a problem.

now that is a point i wouldn't argue.

nightbane + magic is definitely going to be extremely powerful. in a game that includes such a character, heck, just let the natural buy full magical skills and increase all their exp per level charts by 10% or something like that. they'll need it just to have any hope at all of keeping up.

agreed...
I always did think that allowing a NB to have magic was excessive.

[Damian Magecraft]

While I still don't think they can in the first place, game-balance wise, a natural genus with magic is FAR less unbalancing than a Nightbane Mystic or Sorcerrer. If either of those are allowed, it's hardly a problem.

now that is a point i wouldn't argue.

nightbane + magic is definitely going to be extremely powerful. in a game that includes such a character, heck, just let the natural buy full magical skills and increase all their exp per level charts by 10% or something like that. they'll need it just to have any hope at all of keeping up.

agreed...
I always did think that allowing a NB to have magic was excessive.

Heh, played in a game recently with 2 Nightbane Sorcerers, and I was the only "regular" Nightbane. I did more damage, and caused more mayhem, than both of them. And I didn't even have hands to use weapons. At high levels, a Nightbane Sorcerer can be very powerful, but at lower levels, it's not terribly unbalanced. An anecdote, and a personal opinion.

I play mages almost exclusively (for over 30 years) I have found that I rapidly unbalance games with my spell selections and uses regardless of system. (Also anecdotal and personal observation).

[Shark_Force]

Heh, played in a game recently with 2 Nightbane Sorcerers, and I was the only "regular" Nightbane. I did more damage, and caused more mayhem, than both of them. And I didn't even have hands to use weapons. At high levels, a Nightbane Sorcerer can be very powerful, but at lower levels, it's not terribly unbalanced. An anecdote, and a personal opinion.

it's quite possible they focused on the kind of spells that are not extremely powerful (ie damaging spells) rather than the kind of spells that really change fights.

a spell like blinding flash will turn a challenging fight into a cakewalk. globe of daylight pretty much trivialises any fight against vampires. levitation can provide a massive mobility advantage. etc, etc.

basically, in most systems, the order of ability awesomeness goes something like this:

best: adds actions to your own side or removes actions from the other side. within this category, there is of course a scaling factor as well... something which prevents an enemy from acting at all is greater than something which only takes away one action. any summoning spell (adds actions by adding an ally) or a magic net spell are examples of this type.
then: adds abilities to your own side or removes abilities from the other side. for example, flight,teleportation, or anti-magic cloud. again, there is a scale of course. flight is better than climbing, climbing is better than walking a little bit faster, etc.
then: improves abilities that you have, or weakens abilities that enemies have. for example, armor of ithan (improves toughness) can fall into this group, as well as spells like blinding flash or luck curse. as usual, there are levels of awesomeness within this; -10 to strike, parry, and dodge, is better than -1 to strike or even -10 to strike.
then: damage. as you probably have come to expect, there is a scale of awesomeness here as well.

now, a few caveats... this likely doesn't cover *every* spell. and the barrier between categories is not impermeable; the best spells from category 2 will likely be better than the worst spells from category 1, such as anti-magic cloud (against magic-using enemies) being better than adrenal rush. in fact, even some of the damaging spells can be as good as some of the spells from the best type (for example, a damaging spell that actually outright kills an opponent is as good as a spell that denies that opponent actions, provided you don't need that target alive), and some spells will be in multiple categories. but it's a pretty good guideline.

additionally, there is the matter of cost to consider... if something requires half a dozen actions, the awesomeness of that something tends to decrease, and if taking away all of one creature's actions means you're unable to do anything at all for the rest of the fight (and especially if it extends to the rest of the day also), then the awesome factor goes lower as well.

finally, this is also affected by chance of success... i've noticed in many video games, for example, the offensive variety of the first category of abilities tend to be nerfed so viciously that they are completely useless because the chance of succeeding (especially against the targets where it's likely to matter most, such as bosses) is either almost zero, or literally zero.

so yes, if you had two nightbane sorcerers that focused on throwing fire bolts at things, then a regular nightbane can do better. if you had two nightbane sorcerers making good use of magic net, well... let me put it this way, magic net is one of those powers that tend to finish off the fight in your favor, instantly.

[Nekira Sudacne]

There's nothing stopping a nightbane Sorcerrer from burning off PPE to get talents though. It's a trade-off, because they have less PPE to fuel spells with, but if they choose wisely a few well picked talents can add some much-needed boost in raw power at eairly levels. Assuming they rolled well for starting PPE of course. but sinse the majority of low-level spells cost somwhere in the 5-10 PPE range, assuming you start with a good roll of 130+ PPE, you can afford to burn off 30 or so PPE on talents and by the time you actually GET the high level spells, your natural PPE progression should have gotten you back up where you should be.

If you really lucked out and got 160-180 PPE, you can afford to buy upwards of 50 PPE worth, though that's pushing it.

[Damian Magecraft]

There's nothing stopping a nightbane Sorcerrer from burning off PPE to get talents though. It's a trade-off, because they have less PPE to fuel spells with, but if they choose wisely a few well picked talents can add some much-needed boost in raw power at eairly levels. Assuming they rolled well for starting PPE of course. but sinse the majority of low-level spells cost somwhere in the 5-10 PPE range, assuming you start with a good roll of 130+ PPE, you can afford to burn off 30 or so PPE on talents and by the time you actually GET the high level spells, your natural PPE progression should have gotten you back up where you should be.

If you really lucked out and got 160-180 PPE, you can afford to buy upwards of 50 PPE worth, though that's pushing it.

true but even at the low levels a few well chosen talents and spells can make for one very unbalanced character in the right hands.

[Damian Magecraft]

There's nothing stopping a nightbane Sorcerrer from burning off PPE to get talents though. It's a trade-off, because they have less PPE to fuel spells with, but if they choose wisely a few well picked talents can add some much-needed boost in raw power at eairly levels. Assuming they rolled well for starting PPE of course. but sinse the majority of low-level spells cost somwhere in the 5-10 PPE range, assuming you start with a good roll of 130+ PPE, you can afford to burn off 30 or so PPE on talents and by the time you actually GET the high level spells, your natural PPE progression should have gotten you back up where you should be.

If you really lucked out and got 160-180 PPE, you can afford to buy upwards of 50 PPE worth, though that's pushing it.

true but even at the low levels a few well chosen talents and spells can make for one very unbalanced character in the right hands.

The real thing there is "in the right hands."
In the right hands the talents and skills of a pure RCC Nightbane will tear the snot out of any Nightbane Sorcerer.
In the right hands a few minor spells puts a human quite even with the raw physicality and mystical Talents of a Nightbane.
In the right hands the powers of a Wampyr can put paid to half a dozen hounds.
In the right hands the skills of an ADA soldier can defeat a rogue Guardian.

Good role-playing, especially of a heroic character, involves knowing your characters powers and personality enough to make certain that their hands are the right hands.

The point i am making is that assuming all players involved are equal in skill and ability the mage player will come out on top the majority of the time. Magic has that large an impact in every game regardless of system. (all to often however mages are not run at their full potential giving over to the mistaken belief that they and magic by extension are not all that powerful).

[Rallan]

No, I ment what I said. Magic is an art, not a science. You can have all the proper tools and fail for years to learn anything magical no matter how good at learning you are. You either are a mage or your arn't.

I imagine Techno-Wizards for one would disagree about it being an art rather than a science, and given the rules do exist for one to dual class and one can dual class from say Rogue Scientist to Ley Line Walker with good stats clearly one doesn't have to either be a mage or not, they could have the potential, be something else first and become a mage later on.

Yes, which involves a change in class to a man of magic OCC.

Your Natural and Genious can. But they'd have to change OCC's.

Also: Techno-wizards probablly wouldn't. They can merge magic with technology, but it has never been a straight and proper conversion, precicely because of that. it's always twisted in some ways. How come they can only get a TW train to run on a ley line? Why havn't they found a way to get a TW gun to shoot actual bullets? These are just a few exsamples of conversions TW's can't get around.

Energy requirements are always a concern and Ley Lines are cheap endless energy so naturally one would fair better setting up something like a train running along one, and why would they want a TW gun to shoot bullets? That's what mundane firearms are for, the TW weapon is used to channel destructive magics as energy weapons, and if memory serves the TW TK gun fires 'bullets' of telekinetic energy so they do have kinetic energy weapons covered along with energy weapons.

Between us on this point about Naturals and Geniuses we have to agree to disagree, how you see magic and how I see it differs so that's about all the agreement we can manage with regards to this part of the topic.

On the overall topic though what else is within the range of their abilities when considered against both the Nightbane setting as well in other settings like Rifts or HU.

Sorry. The "Magic is just another kind of science" has always struck me as being utterly boring. One of the reasons I like Palladium is that in general it draws a clear line between the two. the TW blurs it, however, it makes it clear that's what happening is they're channeling normal magic through devices, just another kind of magical item. At no point do they actually make technology run on magic, not even in phase world do the TW ships run that way.

But as you said, we're likely to disagree. I simply reject your assertation that the material so far backs you up on it, as i'm fairly confident they back me up more.

But as I said, your game, your way.

Actually one of the problems I've got with Palladium's magic system these days is that magic is just another science. It's as predictable as clockwork: expend PPE, point at target, get standard result. The game mechanics really don't live up to the flavour text, especially in horror games like BTS and Nightbane where magic is meant to be an unpredictable mysterious force, and in Rifts where it's meant to be almost completely out of control. The attempt to liven things up a bit in Through The Glass Darkly was a good start, but it was held back by the fact that Hassal couldn't rebuild the game mechanics from the ground up, and it fell kinda short because it consisted mainly of ideas and suggestions that can be dropped into a campaign by GM fiat but which don't actually plug into the mechanics.

But if we ignore the D&D-with-mana-points mechanics and stick with the setting concepts, I agree with you that the Natural/Genius shouldn't be able to become a naturally geniustastic wizard. The class's whole schtick is that he subconsciously takes his own magical energies and permanently burns them off to become good at stuff. He channels PPE in a way completely unlike all the other magic/psychic classes out there, permanently locking it into a form that can't be tapped into for anything else, because for him it's a pool of potential for awesomeness rather than a pool of mana points. To be able to cast spells and expand his PPE pool he'd basically have to "unlearn" the natural gift he has that makes him a Natural in the first place.

[Nightmask]

Actually one of the problems I've got with Palladium's magic system these days is that magic is just another science. It's as predictable as clockwork: expend PPE, point at target, get standard result. The game mechanics really don't live up to the flavour text, especially in horror games like BTS and Nightbane where magic is meant to be an unpredictable mysterious force, and in Rifts where it's meant to be almost completely out of control. The attempt to liven things up a bit in Through The Glass Darkly was a good start, but it was held back by the fact that Hassal couldn't rebuild the game mechanics from the ground up, and it fell kinda short because it consisted mainly of ideas and suggestions that can be dropped into a campaign by GM fiat but which don't actually plug into the mechanics.

But if we ignore the D&D-with-mana-points mechanics and stick with the setting concepts, I agree with you that the Natural/Genius shouldn't be able to become a naturally geniustastic wizard. The class's whole schtick is that he subconsciously takes his own magical energies and permanently burns them off to become good at stuff. He channels PPE in a way completely unlike all the other magic/psychic classes out there, permanently locking it into a form that can't be tapped into for anything else, because for him it's a pool of potential for awesomeness rather than a pool of mana points. To be able to cast spells and expand his PPE pool he'd basically have to "unlearn" the natural gift he has that makes him a Natural in the first place.

Except that natural gift in this case would in fact being manipulating PPE for magical forces. What you can be a natural at everything else EXCEPT magic? Doesn't really make sense now does it? So the character channels a portion of his potential into becoming more in tune with magic, so while he's weaker than the average mage he's got the flair for it others simply don't as it just comes naturally to him. He's almost like a mystic but straddles the line, having to learn spells rather than just know them from the aether but having it come easy to him including when it comes to learning other types of magic.

[Shark_Force]

arguably, the mystic is a natural genius wrt magic (and psionics).

[Damian Magecraft]

arguably, the mystic is a natural genius wrt magic (and psionics).

hmm... where did I see that before?

If you think about it...
you could say the Mystic is the Natural/Genius of the magic world.
N/Gs can not explain how a thing works they just know it does.
Now ask a mystic how they are able to cast spell XYZ...
They cannot explain the why/how they just "know."

[Sgt Anjay]

Actually one of the problems I've got with Palladium's magic system these days is that magic is just another science. It's as predictable as clockwork: expend PPE, point at target, get standard result. The game mechanics really don't live up to the flavour text, especially in horror games like BTS and Nightbane where magic is meant to be an unpredictable mysterious force, and in Rifts where it's meant to be almost completely out of control. The attempt to liven things up a bit in Through The Glass Darkly was a good start, but it was held back by the fact that Hassal couldn't rebuild the game mechanics from the ground up, and it fell kinda short because it consisted mainly of ideas and suggestions that can be dropped into a campaign by GM fiat but which don't actually plug into the mechanics.

But if we ignore the D&D-with-mana-points mechanics and stick with the setting concepts, I agree with you that the Natural/Genius shouldn't be able to become a naturally geniustastic wizard. The class's whole schtick is that he subconsciously takes his own magical energies and permanently burns them off to become good at stuff. He channels PPE in a way completely unlike all the other magic/psychic classes out there, permanently locking it into a form that can't be tapped into for anything else, because for him it's a pool of potential for awesomeness rather than a pool of mana points. To be able to cast spells and expand his PPE pool he'd basically have to "unlearn" the natural gift he has that makes him a Natural in the first place.

Except that natural gift in this case would in fact being manipulating PPE for magical forces. What you can be a natural at everything else EXCEPT magic? Doesn't really make sense now does it? So the character channels a portion of his potential into becoming more in tune with magic, so while he's weaker than the average mage he's got the flair for it others simply don't as it just comes naturally to him. He's almost like a mystic but straddles the line, having to learn spells rather than just know them from the aether but having it come easy to him including when it comes to learning other types of magic.

You seem fixated on the class as a mechanic (burn PPE, get stuff) rather than the concept behind the mechanic, and its that concept that kind of flies in the face of what you're saying. A Natural/Genius is what he is because his latent psychic power is seeking an outlet, plain and simple. If the natural/genius was trying to learn to handle mystic forces, his potential would likely manifest as psychic or magical power since that's what it is. In other words, he would become a full psychic or mage, not some sort of bastard half-mage, because that's what his gift really is deep down to begin with.

If someone was, by way of analogy, born with a gift for basketball, but never played that game, they might turn out a good track runner or baseball player or football player as they sought an outlet for their athletic ability. But if they go ahead and play basketball, they're going to become a full-on great basketball player because that's what their gift really was all along, not some sort of half-basketball player.

[Rallan]

Actually one of the problems I've got with Palladium's magic system these days is that magic is just another science. It's as predictable as clockwork: expend PPE, point at target, get standard result. The game mechanics really don't live up to the flavour text, especially in horror games like BTS and Nightbane where magic is meant to be an unpredictable mysterious force, and in Rifts where it's meant to be almost completely out of control. The attempt to liven things up a bit in Through The Glass Darkly was a good start, but it was held back by the fact that Hassal couldn't rebuild the game mechanics from the ground up, and it fell kinda short because it consisted mainly of ideas and suggestions that can be dropped into a campaign by GM fiat but which don't actually plug into the mechanics.

But if we ignore the D&D-with-mana-points mechanics and stick with the setting concepts, I agree with you that the Natural/Genius shouldn't be able to become a naturally geniustastic wizard. The class's whole schtick is that he subconsciously takes his own magical energies and permanently burns them off to become good at stuff. He channels PPE in a way completely unlike all the other magic/psychic classes out there, permanently locking it into a form that can't be tapped into for anything else, because for him it's a pool of potential for awesomeness rather than a pool of mana points. To be able to cast spells and expand his PPE pool he'd basically have to "unlearn" the natural gift he has that makes him a Natural in the first place.

Except that natural gift in this case would in fact being manipulating PPE for magical forces. What you can be a natural at everything else EXCEPT magic? Doesn't really make sense now does it? So the character channels a portion of his potential into becoming more in tune with magic, so while he's weaker than the average mage he's got the flair for it others simply don't as it just comes naturally to him. He's almost like a mystic but straddles the line, having to learn spells rather than just know them from the aether but having it come easy to him including when it comes to learning other types of magic.

How do you're saying that Naturals should be able to naturally become awesome at manipulating PPE because they have a natural talent for permanently crippling their ability to manipulate PPE? That seems just the teensiest bit counterintuitive.

[Damian Magecraft]

Actually one of the problems I've got with Palladium's magic system these days is that magic is just another science. It's as predictable as clockwork: expend PPE, point at target, get standard result. The game mechanics really don't live up to the flavour text, especially in horror games like BTS and Nightbane where magic is meant to be an unpredictable mysterious force, and in Rifts where it's meant to be almost completely out of control. The attempt to liven things up a bit in Through The Glass Darkly was a good start, but it was held back by the fact that Hassal couldn't rebuild the game mechanics from the ground up, and it fell kinda short because it consisted mainly of ideas and suggestions that can be dropped into a campaign by GM fiat but which don't actually plug into the mechanics.

But if we ignore the D&D-with-mana-points mechanics and stick with the setting concepts, I agree with you that the Natural/Genius shouldn't be able to become a naturally geniustastic wizard. The class's whole schtick is that he subconsciously takes his own magical energies and permanently burns them off to become good at stuff. He channels PPE in a way completely unlike all the other magic/psychic classes out there, permanently locking it into a form that can't be tapped into for anything else, because for him it's a pool of potential for awesomeness rather than a pool of mana points. To be able to cast spells and expand his PPE pool he'd basically have to "unlearn" the natural gift he has that makes him a Natural in the first place.

Except that natural gift in this case would in fact being manipulating PPE for magical forces. What you can be a natural at everything else EXCEPT magic? Doesn't really make sense now does it? So the character channels a portion of his potential into becoming more in tune with magic, so while he's weaker than the average mage he's got the flair for it others simply don't as it just comes naturally to him. He's almost like a mystic but straddles the line, having to learn spells rather than just know them from the aether but having it come easy to him including when it comes to learning other types of magic.

How do you're saying that Naturals should be able to naturally become awesome at manipulating PPE because they have a natural talent for permanently crippling their ability to manipulate PPE? That seems just the teensiest bit counterintuitive.

because as another poster pointed out he is only interested in arguing the mechanics of the class and no where does it specifically forbid the class from learning magic. (but then nowhere does it specifically permit it either).

[Nightmask]

because as another poster pointed out he is only interested in arguing the mechanics of the class and no where does it specifically forbid the class from learning magic. (but then nowhere does it specifically permit it either).

Or maybe I'm looking at the entire concept of the OCC being all about being a natural in a specific area and if they're such naturals at learning and picking things up that others simply couldn't without more restrictive requirements they should be able to do the same with magic. Since, you know, that's what the core of the OCC is about. I do hope that correction helps after your erroneous description of my motivations.

[Sgt Anjay]

because as another poster pointed out he is only interested in arguing the mechanics of the class and no where does it specifically forbid the class from learning magic. (but then nowhere does it specifically permit it either).

Or maybe I'm looking at the entire concept of the OCC being all about being a natural in a specific area and if they're such naturals at learning and picking things up that others simply couldn't without more restrictive requirements they should be able to do the same with magic. Since, you know, that's what the core of the OCC is about. I do hope that correction helps after your erroneous description of my motivations.

That's not what the core of the OCC is about. They're not "naturals at learning and picking up things". They are psychics who channel their latent psionic potential into mundane abilities subconsciously. Being good at things they feel passionate about is a psychic power. If they were interested enough in magic that it triggered their latent psychic powers, it would make much more sense that they'd end up a Mystic or a Chaneller, or some other combination psychic/mage...assuming it didn't just trigger them becoming a full-blown Psychic to begin with.

[Nightmask]

because as another poster pointed out he is only interested in arguing the mechanics of the class and no where does it specifically forbid the class from learning magic. (but then nowhere does it specifically permit it either).

Or maybe I'm looking at the entire concept of the OCC being all about being a natural in a specific area and if they're such naturals at learning and picking things up that others simply couldn't without more restrictive requirements they should be able to do the same with magic. Since, you know, that's what the core of the OCC is about. I do hope that correction helps after your erroneous description of my motivations.

That's not what the core of the OCC is about. They're not "naturals at learning and picking up things". They are psychics who channel their latent psionic potential into mundane abilities subconsciously. Being good at things they feel passionate about is a psychic power. If they were interested enough in magic that it triggered their latent psychic powers, it would make much more sense that they'd end up a Mystic or a Chaneller, or some other combination psychic/mage...assuming it didn't just trigger them becoming a full-blown Psychic to begin with.

Seems like you need to look the OCC over again if you think that then, because that's not what the OCC says. As a class they're known for being able to learn things that wouldn't seem learnable how they pull it off, because that's what they do learn things. They pick up stuff easily because it's what they are all about, learning.

[Sgt Anjay]

because as another poster pointed out he is only interested in arguing the mechanics of the class and no where does it specifically forbid the class from learning magic. (but then nowhere does it specifically permit it either).

Or maybe I'm looking at the entire concept of the OCC being all about being a natural in a specific area and if they're such naturals at learning and picking things up that others simply couldn't without more restrictive requirements they should be able to do the same with magic. Since, you know, that's what the core of the OCC is about. I do hope that correction helps after your erroneous description of my motivations.

That's not what the core of the OCC is about. They're not "naturals at learning and picking up things". They are psychics who channel their latent psionic potential into mundane abilities subconsciously. Being good at things they feel passionate about is a psychic power. If they were interested enough in magic that it triggered their latent psychic powers, it would make much more sense that they'd end up a Mystic or a Chaneller, or some other combination psychic/mage...assuming it didn't just trigger them becoming a full-blown Psychic to begin with.

Seems like you need to look the OCC over again if you think that then, because that's not what the OCC says. As a class they're known for being able to learn things that wouldn't seem learnable how they pull it off, because that's what they do learn things. They pick up stuff easily because it's what they are all about, learning.

Pfft, really?
Ok, lets see what the book says:

Natural & Genius P.C.C.

Right off the bat, the Natural & Genius class is called a P.C.C., a PSYCHIC Character Class!

Unknown to most (with the possible exception of the Nightlords), the subtle shift in mystical energies has increased the latent powers of the populace at large, not only the flashier "psychics" that garner all the attention and fear, but also those with less obvious abilities.

And here it first goes into the fact that members of this class are latent psychics.

Many, or perhaps most of these latent psychics unconsciously channel their psychic energies in one or two mundane fields they feel passionate about.

And here is the exact quote that backs up exactly what I said: these are psychics who become good at things because they are psychics channeling their power. That's why the skills cost their base P.P.E., which a psychic normally burns off while acquiring psychic powers and I.S.P.

Although the existence of these psychics has been largely ignored by both sides of the struggle, many of them have ended up taking sides out of necessity.

Again, a quote saying that Naturals & Geniuses are psychics.

1. Psionic Powers: In addition to their special abilities (see below), all naturals have the psionic powers mind block and total recall. These are "subconscious" powers that are used when
the psychic needs them; many naturals are not even aware that they have any psionic abilities.

Hey look, these psychics get two regular psychic powers subconsciously, "in addition to their special abilities" that, again, they are using P.P.E. to acquire. Exactly how do you justify them burning P.P.E. if they're just "good learners" in the mundane sense?

5. Special Abilities: Naturals unconsciously use their initial P.P.E. to improve their minds or bodies. These powers can be used in two ways.

Their ability to turn P.P.E. into improvements unconsciously are described here as "powers." Powers. This is not very ambiguous, especially not combined with all the text talking about them being latent psychics who use their P.P.E. to boost themselves.

So, there, I reread the text as per your request. I've posted what I found, starting with the fact it says that they're not an O.C.C., as you thought, but instead a P.C.C. and going from there. Is there any text in the books backing up something different?

[Nightmask]

Need I point out with the release of the updated Rifts main book Palladium's apparently phasing out a separate classification for psychics relative to the other classes, so PCC are just OCC? Or that psychic powers don't preclude someone having other abilities including super-powers or spellcasting ability? Techno-Wizards end up burning some of their PPE during development to gain a specific set of Psychic powers linked to the OCC, and for more psychic powers than the Natural and Genius acquires.

As far as the rest goes, I disagree with your interpretation of the limits on the class and one can look around to see other cases of characters developing spell-casting ability without becoming being full-fledged mages (the Arcane Detective for example) so there's nothing that in my interpretation precludes this class learning spells. You're free to disagree just not free to tell me that the only right way is your way.

[Sgt Anjay]

Need I point out with the release of the updated Rifts main book Palladium's apparently phasing out a separate classification for psychics relative to the other classes, so PCC are just OCC? Or that psychic powers don't preclude someone having other abilities including super-powers or spellcasting ability? Techno-Wizards end up burning some of their PPE during development to gain a specific set of Psychic powers linked to the OCC, and for more psychic powers than the Natural and Genius acquires.

Very nice deflection. However, you specifically state that the Natural & Genius operate because they're just good learners who learn stuff and are all about learning. That is where you were mistaken and that is where I disagree with your position. The Natural & Genius are, just like I said, psychics. They do what they do because they are psychics, and do what they do using psychic power. You could call it a Job-like Ruleset for all I care, because my point was that despite what you said, they are indeed psychics. The fact that they were called a P.C.C. proves that, whether or not the P.C.C. classification exists anymore or not!

As far as the rest goes, I disagree with your interpretation of the limits on the class and one can look around to see other cases of characters developing spell-casting ability without becoming being full-fledged mages (the Arcane Detective for example) so there's nothing that in my interpretation precludes this class learning spells. You're free to disagree just not free to tell me that the only right way is your way.

Actually, I'm asking you to explain your point of view in light of the fact that you were mistaken in your assertion that the Natural & Genius class can learn anything because they're just good at learning and learning is what they're all about. That is false; the text in the book, which I quoted above, says quite clearly that they "learn" with their psychic powers. What class learns magic using psionics? Other than the possibility of the Mystic and Channeler, I'm not aware of any that may. You also haven't explained exactly how their psychic power would kick in, but only in a limited way so that they don't actually learn what they're passionate about, which does not occur with any other ability they gain as a package. Or why their latent psychic power could become explicit, unlatent magical power, while not triggering a full-on manifestation of that psychic power to begin with.

Thus far, all I've seen is "because they learn stuff". All it looks like to me is a focus on the "burn P.P.E., get stuff" mechanic to the exclusion of the entire rest of the class. Maybe if I see some substance on the other side of it, I'll switch my viewpoint. As I ended my last post with (you know, despite the fact that you're trying to turn me into some sort of tyrant trying to dictate to poor little you), Is there any text in the books backing up something different?

[thorr-kan]

Rules solution for non-spellcasters to cast spells: Sorcerous Skills from TtGD.

[drewkitty ~..~]

What is done in the Rifts books is irrelevant to the other PB settings.

------------------

Rules solution for non-spellcasters to cast spells: Sorcerous Skills from TtGD.

Do you mean the Magical Proficiencies on pages 24-26?
The only non-spell casters that can take any are Acolytes and Parapsychologists. (See the end of the second paragraph for those who can get the Proficiencies.)

[Blight]

Natural and Genious is not a mage or even mystic, of course they can't learn magic. That's rediculous.

As far as N&SS Martial arts go: there's nothing stopping any character from taking them. In most games i've played Nightbane tend to have them, I wouldn't see why they couldn't.

Really don't see where the 'of course' or the 'that's ridiculous' comes from. He's a class that specifically notes that they bend the rules because of their incredible ability to learn and believe things others might fail to be able to see the truth of. Magic requires belief, total and unwavering, and PPE enough to empower the spells. So the Natural & Genius PCC is eminently qualified to learn some spells even if he's not a dedicated mage. Even Beyond the Supernatural allowed for one non-spellcaster OCC being able to cast a few spells under proper circumstances due to their belief and understanding of magic and that's not even someone with an advantage when it comes to belief and ability to learn.

Yes, they have an incredibility ability to learn. this is represented by their ability to learn any skill in all catagorys. Magic requires quite a bit more than beleif to cast, however. Try reading through the glass darkly sometimes. and Having PPE enough to cast spells has never been enough.

there is nothing in the writeup of Natural and Genious that suggests they violate the normal rules as to who can or can't learn magic. your grasping at straws because you want it to happen.

Which is fine. It's your game. Do what you want to. That dosn't mean the written material supports it beyond vauge mutterings about "Learnin' real good". Which isn't nearly enough to cover it.

Natural and Gerious's don't get to break the rules. They merely follow their own rules. and "learns magic" is not part of them.

Just as a compromise, in our night bane game we use the skill Magical theory. Beyond the obvious ability such a skill would present such as identifying magical components and what spell or ritual they where being used for or identify the type of magic being used. With it anybody could (with enough P.P.E. and negatives add to the skill roll) do wards and circles. Maybe even lead a ritual. But never cast an evocation or instant spell (bippity boopity boo!).