Dwarven Armor Question

[Severus Snape]

In my opinion, as a GM, I would allow one of the following:

1. The suit to be dwarven made, giving it an AR of 18; OR
2. The suit to be enchanted with Bursts Into Flame, giving it an AR of 18; OR
3. The suit to be enchanted in the "normal" fashion, giving it an AR of 18; OR
4. The suit to be made out of black iron, giving it an AR of 18.

See the theme here? While there is nothing wrong with having a dwarven-made, enchanted suit of armor, the maximum AR that any GM should allow for any suit of armor is 18. Rolling above an 18 is already tough enough, so why would you let a player have a suit of armor that makes it so you have to almost roll a natural 20 just to do damage to the armor itself? So in this case, I would allow any of the above, but only up to an AR of 18.

[auyl]

In my opinion, as a GM, I would allow one of the following:

1. The suit to be dwarven made, giving it an AR of 18; OR
2. The suit to be enchanted with Bursts Into Flame, giving it an AR of 18; OR
3. The suit to be enchanted in the "normal" fashion, giving it an AR of 18; OR
4. The suit to be made out of black iron, giving it an AR of 18.

See the theme here? While there is nothing wrong with having a dwarven-made, enchanted suit of armor, the maximum AR that any GM should allow for any suit of armor is 18. Rolling above an 18 is already tough enough, so why would you let a player have a suit of armor that makes it so you have to almost roll a natural 20 just to do damage to the armor itself? So in this case, I would allow any of the above, but only up to an AR of 18.

Yeah I'd have to agree with this. Having an AR of 22 is just unbalancing everything and taking advantage of the rules. I would stick with with the maximum AR allowed by the rules of 18, that's difficult enough to get through as it is anyway.

[Reagren Wright]

Can dwarves make armor that has an increased armor rating? Under the equipment section of the book it says that armor rating can never be increased, except for magically. Under the description for dwarves it says that they can make armor with an increased armor rating and s.d.c. So which one is right?
I ask because a player of mine wants a full suit of dwarven made plate mail, giving it an ar of 18. Than enchant it with bursts into flame for an ar of 20. Than give it the usual ar enchantment giving it an ar of 21. Than make it out of black iron which would give it an ar of 22.

According to the main book the answer is no... I swear I saw something somewhere that contradicted that though. You could always delve into the Hardware section in Heroes Unlimited and change things yourself...

Yeah I agree totally. I would say +1 to A.R. for an extra 100 gold and +2 to A.R. for 300
gold. As for having an A.R. above 20, I would say that a tad bit excessive.

[Severus Snape]

There isn't anything I've seen in the books that says it can't go over 18. But if I were the GM, I would never allow the AR of any armor, no matter how mythical or magical, to be above 18. You can allow it in your games, but my opinion is that it shouldn't happen.

Now, what to do about those pesky bonuses when you go over 18 if you don't allow the AR to go over 18? Simple: turn them into bonuses to dodge/parry. Example:

Gregos the Hearty is wearing Plate armor with an AR of 17. Someone casts Burts Into Flame on him, which is supposed to give him a bonus of +2 to AR. However, AR stops at 18, which leaves a bonus of +1 still on the table. Give him an extra +1 to dodge/parry for the duration, which will help him to potentially avoid incoming attacks.

[Cinos]

I agree with the limit of 18 tottaly, but severus said you have to roll above an 18 to do damage to the armor itself? I thought palladium armor was normal, as in any hit under the AR does damage to the armor, a hit above the ar goes to the person inside?

Nope. That's only for innate AR's. If you fall below the target number for Armor, it hits the armor, and degrades the SDC until destroyed. Even AR 1 Million is limited by its SDC on armor.

What's more, against mid-level characters (I'm assuming 6th level, since those toys of high end armor aren't exactly open to the low level smucks). Against an 18, you can expect a 25% hit rate (an irony is that at AR 18+, most swings that get by, are also critical). Add in a balanced weapon (since I'm assuming these people keep their gear up to par), it jumps to about 35%, which is fairly consistent, and hardly unbeatable. Moreso considering the armor will break sooner or later.

While from a game play standpoint, I'm not opposed to a cap, but pointing out that AR 18 is not an unbeatable lynch pin of defense, and those without good SDC under that are -extremely- prone to any hit that gets by considering it will likely be a crit (half of the attacks around 6th level that get by are also critical).

I tend to see armor as wasted, after seeing so much of their SDC left after fights.

Probability calculated off any character with a 6th Level WP and Hand to Hand Expert or better with a PP of 10.

[Severus Snape]

I agree with the limit of 18 tottaly, but severus said you have to roll above an 18 to do damage to the armor itself? I thought palladium armor was normal, as in any hit under the AR does damage to the armor, a hit above the ar goes to the person inside?

Nope. That's only for innate AR's. If you fall below the target number for Armor, it hits the armor, and degrades the SDC until destroyed. Even AR 1 Million is limited by its SDC on armor.

What's more, against mid-level characters (I'm assuming 6th level, since those toys of high end armor aren't exactly open to the low level smucks). Against an 18, you can expect a 25% hit rate (an irony is that at AR 18+, most swings that get by, are also critical). Add in a balanced weapon (since I'm assuming these people keep their gear up to par), it jumps to about 35%, which is fairly consistent, and hardly unbeatable. Moreso considering the armor will break sooner or later.

While from a game play standpoint, I'm not opposed to a cap, but pointing out that AR 18 is not an unbeatable lynch pin of defense, and those without good SDC under that are -extremely- prone to any hit that gets by considering it will likely be a crit (half of the attacks around 6th level that get by are also critical).

I tend to see armor as wasted, after seeing so much of their SDC left after fights.

Probability calculated off any character with a 6th Level WP and Hand to Hand Expert or better with a PP of 10.

You are correct. I mis-spoke. Rolls to strike of 5 to the armor's AR hit and do damage to the armor itself. Strike rolls in excess of the AR hit the target inside the armor. This is, of course, assuming the attack isn't an armor-piercing round or something else that auto-bypasses AR.

[zyanitevp]

Immobilize is in the pfrpg main book pg 201. It's a seventh level wizard spell. Broken as hell.

If you think it is "broken as hell" modify it!!
I agree that immobilize is too strong, I have changed the melees to attacks if saved-still very strong, but not ridiculous.

[azazel1024]

Did I miss something? With bonuses to strike, an AR of 18 isn't that hard to beat.

One o' those things I dislike about AR with armor is that anything below the "critical number" to penetrate the armor directly and hurt the character inside is automatically damages the armor.

I can tell you, I could beat on some plate mail for an hour and I doubt I will have damaged. Of course stabbing it with a good sword probably put some small punctures in it.

Frankly I think rolls more than 4 under the target number of the AR should do NO damage to the armor (just glances off and/or is absorbed). Rolls at or up to 2 pts higher than the AR penetrate doing 25% damage to the armor and 75% to the person inside. Rolls higher than that bypass the armor completely and hurt the person inside with 100% of the damage (IE you found a chink in the armor, not simply hit hard enough to hurt the person inside).

[JuliusCreed]

Did I miss something? With bonuses to strike, an AR of 18 isn't that hard to beat.

One o' those things I dislike about AR with armor is that anything below the "critical number" to penetrate the armor directly and hurt the character inside is automatically damages the armor.

I can tell you, I could beat on some plate mail for an hour and I doubt I will have damaged. Of course stabbing it with a good sword probably put some small punctures in it.

Frankly I think rolls more than 4 under the target number of the AR should do NO damage to the armor (just glances off and/or is absorbed). Rolls at or up to 2 pts higher than the AR penetrate doing 25% damage to the armor and 75% to the person inside. Rolls higher than that bypass the armor completely and hurt the person inside with 100% of the damage (IE you found a chink in the armor, not simply hit hard enough to hurt the person inside).

That's the one thing about this thread that I've been looking at that confused me. Nobody seemed to be taking into account the fact that ANY strike bonus you have effectively lowers the target number you need to beat an Armor Rating. Whether they come from WP's, HtH skill, magic bonuses, high quality weapons, extraordinary PP and so on, each of those little +1's and +2's really start to add up. Sure, the guy in Dwarven Plate armor with an AR of 19 enchanted with Burst into Flames effectively, by canon, has an enhanced AR of 21, but when he's up against my 8th level Troll Assassin with a PP of 22 and a Dwarven Longsword, my effective target number to hit him drops to the mid-teens or less.
As for damage getting done to armor, I can understand how it seems nearly impossible to actually do any real damage over time, but it does happen. You may not see it, but plate armor does get dented and dinged up pretty quickly if you start wailing on it hard enough, especially if you know where to hit it. Knowing hwere to hit it is the trick and gets reflected in the game with the steadilly increasing strike bonuses from WP and HtH skills. The only trick, of course, is hitting the armor consistently enough to actually start seeing the damage as it develops. each of those little dents, dings, creases and punctures you put in a suit of plate effectively becomes a weak spot in the plate. It may not be a very weak spot to start with, but keep pounding on that area and it will start to give.

[Ronin Shinobi]

In my opinion, as a GM, I would allow one of the following:

1. The suit to be dwarven made, giving it an AR of 18; OR
2. The suit to be enchanted with Bursts Into Flame, giving it an AR of 18; OR
3. The suit to be enchanted in the "normal" fashion, giving it an AR of 18; OR
4. The suit to be made out of black iron, giving it an AR of 18.

See the theme here? While there is nothing wrong with having a dwarven-made, enchanted suit of armor, the maximum AR that any GM should allow for any suit of armor is 18. Rolling above an 18 is already tough enough, so why would you let a player have a suit of armor that makes it so you have to almost roll a natural 20 just to do damage to the armor itself? So in this case, I would allow any of the above, but only up to an AR of 18.

I agree with the limit of 18 tottaly, but severus said you have to roll above an 18 to do damage to the armor itself? I thought palladium armor was normal, as in any hit under the AR does damage to the armor, a hit above the ar goes to the person inside?

Adding to that, I always half damage if they penetrate the AR. Because, some of the inertia from the blow would have been absorbed from the armor still, lessening the damage.

[azazel1024]

Did I miss something? With bonuses to strike, an AR of 18 isn't that hard to beat.

One o' those things I dislike about AR with armor is that anything below the "critical number" to penetrate the armor directly and hurt the character inside is automatically damages the armor.

I can tell you, I could beat on some plate mail for an hour and I doubt I will have damaged. Of course stabbing it with a good sword probably put some small punctures in it.

Frankly I think rolls more than 4 under the target number of the AR should do NO damage to the armor (just glances off and/or is absorbed). Rolls at or up to 2 pts higher than the AR penetrate doing 25% damage to the armor and 75% to the person inside. Rolls higher than that bypass the armor completely and hurt the person inside with 100% of the damage (IE you found a chink in the armor, not simply hit hard enough to hurt the person inside).

That's the one thing about this thread that I've been looking at that confused me. Nobody seemed to be taking into account the fact that ANY strike bonus you have effectively lowers the target number you need to beat an Armor Rating. Whether they come from WP's, HtH skill, magic bonuses, high quality weapons, extraordinary PP and so on, each of those little +1's and +2's really start to add up. Sure, the guy in Dwarven Plate armor with an AR of 19 enchanted with Burst into Flames effectively, by canon, has an enhanced AR of 21, but when he's up against my 8th level Troll Assassin with a PP of 22 and a Dwarven Longsword, my effective target number to hit him drops to the mid-teens or less.
As for damage getting done to armor, I can understand how it seems nearly impossible to actually do any real damage over time, but it does happen. You may not see it, but plate armor does get dented and dinged up pretty quickly if you start wailing on it hard enough, especially if you know where to hit it. Knowing hwere to hit it is the trick and gets reflected in the game with the steadilly increasing strike bonuses from WP and HtH skills. The only trick, of course, is hitting the armor consistently enough to actually start seeing the damage as it develops. each of those little dents, dings, creases and punctures you put in a suit of plate effectively becomes a weak spot in the plate. It may not be a very weak spot to start with, but keep pounding on that area and it will start to give.

Sure, but if you look at it "real world" it takes a lot of wailing on it to render it ineffective in most cases. Normally PB has the opposite problem where things (especially people) can take a lot more damage than they realisticaly should be able to before being incapacitated or dead. Armor is the opposite spectrum. Just 3-4 good hits on some studded leather and the armor is "destroyed". Now sure, some good slices with a sword is going to cut it up some and make it protect less in real life, but it is going to be far from destroyed still.

At a minimum damage should be reduced even if it isn't rendered ineffective. Maybe a damage reduction of 1pt in damage for every point the roll to beat AR missed.

So a target of AR16, roll with bonuses is a 14 and damage is a 10 sees a reduction of 2 points in damage to the armor (and nothing gets through). Next roll is really bad, just 8 overall and 11 to damage. Still hits, but nothing gets through and it sees a damage reduction of 8pts, doing only 3 to the armor.

Its more math, but it takes in to account things like "I hit the guy, but man was it a glancing blow. I didn't do more than scuff his armor. Not even a tiny dent"

[Cinos]

Sure, but if you look at it "real world" it takes a lot of wailing on it to render it ineffective in most cases.

If you look at it in "Real World" It's also pretty mind bogglingly hard to get past plate when the opponent is blocking / fighting you with anything shy of a dagger.

While my edits to the game are extensive, one change was to armor, including the following; AR and SDC was greatly increased (AR was increased because strike totals also increased, but a compairable difference was still there). After making a Parry or Dodge, only the remaining Strike total was compared against AR (so you have a breast plate of AR 16, Attacker swings with a 22, you parry with a 10, strike drops to 12, under AR, hits the breast plate). Heavy Armors suffer 75% less from Slashing and Piercing Weapons (Medium suffers half from Slashing).

[JuliusCreed]

I like the discussion about armor rating and the spell immobilize being broken and what not, bu does anyone have an answer to my original question. That is; is there any clarification on whether or not dwarves made armor can have a higher armor rating?

Yes, yes, back to the original topic of the thread here people! Sorry about that!

Personally, not aware personally of any canon law on Dwarven made armor and increases to AR, though PFRPG main book pg 272 states; "Superior Armor; The listed armor ratings (A.R.) cannot be increased, except magically, simply because of the nature of the armor, what body areas it covers, and the material it is constructed of...". Anything beyond what I've found, I am unaware of.

That said, I've been through the Compendium of Weapons, Armor and Castles often enough to remember a full page illustration and description of a suit of meticulously constructed plate armor built for a king once (I'm wanting to say King Edward, but don't quote me there) In ther decription, the armor was stated to have been made from hundreds or pieces and was so well fitted that any of the joints "would not even permit the passage of a pin". Pretty impressive work by any standard. So what's the AR on that bad boy? By canon, 18 as a full suit of plate armor. by house rulings, you could easilly rule it to be 19 or higher just on the merits of its construction alone. It really seems to be that well put together. But, remember how AR is determined... it's an averaging factor, rated from 4 to 20, on how much of the body it covers and what it's made of.

[Cinos]

I know in the armor section it says ar can not be increased, but on pg 292 of the same boom it says "Likewise, dwarves armor frequently has a higher A.R. And greater S.D.C.; but as one might expect, these items also cost 50% to 100% more than common stock."
So which one is it? Dwarven armor has higher AR? Or it can't have higher AR?

It's Palladium, pick one, a 'canon' rule is about as useful as a made up one anyway.