Why are Vampires so powerful or rather...

[The Dark Elf]

It depends entirely on the mix of the group. Spells, magic items psionics all good against vampires. If it's normal weapons only then you should be running.

8 first level against one 6th is good odds for any group. (would you want to face 8 1st level bandits at level 6?).

Vampires can only attack at night and are as weak as you can get when asleep. Demons not so.

Demons have more friends than the average vampire.

Playtest a fight between a Baalrog and a vampire - who won?

[Dustin Fireblade]

What tactics did you use with the Baal-rog?

[SkyeFyre]

It sounds to me like the Baal-rog wasn't played correctly. My Rifts party (Yes I realize we're talking PF) had quite the fun time with one of them and at the time they were around the same level as your party and they were armed to the teeth. We had a Maxi-Killer, A Great Horned Dragon Hatchling, a Psi-Ghost, a feral Battle Cat, a Cyber-Knight, and a Leyline Walker, many of which were packing Naruni gear so they were definitely not pushovers.

Don't forget to use the Baal-rog's elemental spells. If I recall correctly they can even call elementals can they not?

[Goliath Strongarm]

I have to go with the "wasn't played right". In fact, I want to double underline, highlight, bold, all caps, and the largest font humanly possible "wasn't played right"

Besides the factors of things like turn invisible at will, see invisible, and bio-regen...

Animate and Control Dead- as a fifth level caster, that's 7 skeletons. Not much, granted, but enough to cause a little bit of chaos for the pc's.

Level 1-4 fire elemental magic:
*darkness, cloud of smoke, cloud of ash, cloud of steam- all great for blinding the party
*heat object- pc's armor/weapons. Nothing like trying to fight when you're in constant burning pain
*spontaneous combustion- on pc quivers of arrows. Or clothing. Let that mage cast spells while his robes are on fire! All of that helps limit ranged attacks, and remember, baalrogs FLY
*not to mention the combative spells

PLUS, you must consider that baalrogs love to collect magical items, to include scrolls and weapons.

PLUS, the kicker- even if the baalrog DOES start to lose... he can go for his dimensional teleport (I would use the same 5th level caster level as his spell magic)

[Levi]

Demons' SDC, Attacks per melee, and combat bonuses are all too low in PF. Yes, they have a ton of cool abilities. But if they can't avoid a couple hits from PCs, they can be killed quickly. I always double or triple demons SDC, add an attack or two, and give a little bump in bonuses. Otherwise, a bad initiative roll or couple lucky rolls from the PCs, and the demon is done for.

No, I don’t play them wrong. Ask anyone who has sat in on one of my games; I can kick the hell out of a group with some pretty minor enemies. The stats for demons relative to everything else in PF are way out of whack. But will a little bump, they are powerful and dangerous.

[Silveressa]

For those who think that was my main problem, it still doesn't explain why demons in general including the Baal Rog can get their butts kicked by a Master Vampire in one on one combat. Why is a simple cursed/infected human more powerful then a greater demon?????

The main reason is a vampires immunity to most attacks and a P.S on par with a greater demon.
If one rules a demons natural weapons (claws, teeth etc..) are capable of inflicting damage to a vampire it cannot regenerate from at super speed then suddenly the battle becomes slanted far more in the demons favor. (This is assuming the vampire doesn't use it's mist ability and the demon its teleport ability at all to flee and fight to the death)

[Dustin Fireblade]

For those who think that was my main problem, it still doesn't explain why demons in general including the Baal Rog can get their butts kicked by a Master Vampire in one on one combat. Why is a simple cursed/infected human more powerful then a greater demon?????

Palladium has no design philosophy when it comes to these sorts of things?

I've always thought that Master Vampires were suppose to be the equal to a greater demon myself - they are a direct link to their creator. Now as I recall Fantasy doesn't have the Rifts "vampire intelligences" as the main source of vampire power. I believe Vald-Tegor is the main creator, but the Old Ones can also create a Master Vampire, just for kicks. So when you look at the source, yeah I'd expect vampires to be fairly badass.

That said I did the same as Levi and increased the power of certain demons.

[AzathothXy]

For those who think that was my main problem, it still doesn't explain why demons in general including the Baal Rog can get their butts kicked by a Master Vampire in one on one combat. Why is a simple cursed/infected human more powerful then a greater demon?????

Palladium has no design philosophy when it comes to these sorts of things?

I've always thought that Master Vampires were suppose to be the equal to a greater demon myself - they are a direct link to their creator. Now as I recall Fantasy doesn't have the Rifts "vampire intelligences" as the main source of vampire power. I believe Vald-Tegor is the main creator, but the Old Ones can also create a Master Vampire, just for kicks. So when you look at the source, yeah I'd expect vampires to be fairly badass.

That said I did the same as Levi and increased the power of certain demons.

Weren't vamps listed as demons in the 1st edeition.

[The Beast]

Palladium has no design philosophy when it comes to these sorts of things?

I've always thought that Master Vampires were suppose to be the equal to a greater demon myself - they are a direct link to their creator. Now as I recall Fantasy doesn't have the Rifts "vampire intelligences" as the main source of vampire power. I believe Vald-Tegor is the main creator, but the Old Ones can also create a Master Vampire, just for kicks. So when you look at the source, yeah I'd expect vampires to be fairly badass.

That said I did the same as Levi and increased the power of certain demons.

Vald-Tegor is a vampire intelligence...

[Prysus]

Weren't vamps listed as demons in the 1st edeition.

Greetings and Salutations. Yes they were. And, actually, if you look in your PF Second Edition main book, page 313, they're listed as Greater Demons there as well (but not detailed within the book, just on the list). Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Off track here. Prysus do you seriously type that out every time or do you have it somewhere and just cut and paste it? I get a smile every time I read one of your posts.

Back on track.

Sooo Vampires are from Hades???? Ok, I guess I can live with the power levels then. That does seem to justify them.

Greetings and Salutations. I seriously type that every time. Glad I could make someone smile.

As for the vampires being from Hades ... that's a tough one. They're clearly on the Greater Demon list in the main book. However, they're not included in the greater demon write-ups (maybe just too much room?). Then in Western Empire book (which came out years later) they're created by Vampire Intelligences (VI) still. To the best of my knowledge, VI are not from Hades. So which are they? Were they originally intended to be Greater Demons and then changed to the standard Rifts route when Western Empire came out? Are there two types of vampires: one a Greater Demon and the other type a VI creation? Are they still just VI and the Greater Demon reference only an accidental carry over from 1st Edition and never intended? Are VI really from Hades? Is this just to indicate they're the same power level as a Greater Demon even though not technically from Hades? The truth is we don't know.

Since I've started though, I'll state my personal belief. I don't believe there was a list like that in 1st Edition, which would mean that was typed out for 2nd Edition (accidental? Possible, but I'm going to say that's a hard accident to make). When PF 2nd Edition first came out they may have intended to be demons, maybe some kind of demonic possession (I'm reminded of Buffy the Vampire Slayer version). Later they were turned into the standard VI version, either because they decided it would be more Megaversal, or maybe what Bill Coffin (who wrote Western Empire) thought would be a good idea, or maybe some other reason all together. The end result, while they may not be Greater Demons (from what I can tell), it does look like they were at least intended to be on that power scale. Just my thoughts. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

[The Dark Elf]

Greetings and Salutations. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Off track here. Prysus do you seriously type that out every time or do you have it somewhere and just cut and paste it? I get a smile every time I read one of your posts.

Back on track.

Sooo Vampires are from Hades???? Ok, I guess I can live with the power levels then. That does seem to justify them.

Greetings and Salutations. I seriously type that every time. Glad I could make someone smile.

As for the vampires being from Hades ... that's a tough one. They're clearly on the Greater Demon list in the main book. However, they're not included in the greater demon write-ups (maybe just too much room?). Then in Western Empire book (which came out years later) they're created by Vampire Intelligences (VI) still. To the best of my knowledge, VI are not from Hades. So which are they? Were they originally intended to be Greater Demons and then changed to the standard Rifts route when Western Empire came out? Are there two types of vampires: one a Greater Demon and the other type a VI creation? Are they still just VI and the Greater Demon reference only an accidental carry over from 1st Edition and never intended? Are VI really from Hades? Is this just to indicate they're the same power level as a Greater Demon even though not technically from Hades? The truth is we don't know.

Since I've started though, I'll state my personal belief. I don't believe there was a list like that in 1st Edition, which would mean that was typed out for 2nd Edition (accidental? Possible, but I'm going to say that's a hard accident to make). When PF 2nd Edition first came out they may have intended to be demons, maybe some kind of demonic possession (I'm reminded of Buffy the Vampire Slayer version). Later they were turned into the standard VI version, either because they decided it would be more Megaversal, or maybe what Bill Coffin (who wrote Western Empire) thought would be a good idea, or maybe some other reason all together. The end result, while they may not be Greater Demons (from what I can tell), it does look like they were at least intended to be on that power scale. Just my thoughts. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

Ok hands up who else skipped what he'd actually written and went straight to the end to see if he'd put 2Thank you for your time and patience..." ?

[Prysus]

Ok hands up who else skipped what he'd actually written and went straight to the end to see if he'd put 2Thank you for your time and patience..." ?

Actually took me some time to stop laughing at that one.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Palladium has no design philosophy when it comes to these sorts of things?

I've always thought that Master Vampires were suppose to be the equal to a greater demon myself - they are a direct link to their creator. Now as I recall Fantasy doesn't have the Rifts "vampire intelligences" as the main source of vampire power. I believe Vald-Tegor is the main creator, but the Old Ones can also create a Master Vampire, just for kicks. So when you look at the source, yeah I'd expect vampires to be fairly badass.

That said I did the same as Levi and increased the power of certain demons.

Vald-Tegor is a vampire intelligence...

Hmm ok it's been a long while since I read up on him, but I thought he had moved "beyond" that or something along those lines. I seemed to recall he was more powerful than a standard vampire intelligence as well?

[KillWatch]

here are some things I am working with
a) Demons are MDC no matter what environment
b) Mortals and their technology MDC is only x10 despite what setting
c) Old Ones and Gods have TDC
d) Supernatural MDC creatures are also x10
e) I know their are all these creatures in Hades, but Hades ins't liking that. So what is he going to do? 1) recruit some mortals to free Prometheus, 2) get the hundred handed to go in and start wiping the floor with many of the lower kin and since they are "from" hades they will all be permanently dead. However this may cause many of them to flea once they know that eternal death is coming. Then you would have those demons of aberrant alignment who would help hades take over once again. I can see him opening a doorway to dyvall as an alternative to slaughter and letting them duke it.
f) some "mortal" devels (one of my mutant rccs) has found his way to Prometheus and drawing the blood of the Titan who created man, and selling it to the highest bidder, which will probably fall into the hands of some mad sciency type people who will want to do something benign with it.
in a fantsy game the blood of the Titan who created man and gave him "fire" would be something awesome as well

[The Beast]

Hmm ok it's been a long while since I read up on him, but I thought he had moved "beyond" that or something along those lines. I seemed to recall he was more powerful than a standard vampire intelligence as well?

According to the fluff, a VI merged with a noble mage, but nowhere in his description does it say he's anything more than a VI. One thing worth mentioning is that Dragons & Gods allowed alien intelligences to use the deific powers presented in the book. Vampire Kingdoms was written at least a decade before this one, so none of the VIs from there show this change.

[everloss]

Hmm ok it's been a long while since I read up on him, but I thought he had moved "beyond" that or something along those lines. I seemed to recall he was more powerful than a standard vampire intelligence as well?

According to the fluff, a VI merged with a noble mage, but nowhere in his description does it say he's anything more than a VI. One thing worth mentioning is that Dragons & Gods allowed alien intelligences to use the deific powers presented in the book. Vampire Kingdoms was written at least a decade before this one, so none of the VIs from there show this change.

but Vald-tegor (humanoid) is also his natural appearance now; not a blob of eyes and tentacles. He also does not behave like any other vampire intelligence in that he isn't actively trying to take over the world. And I think he is considered more powerful than other vampire intelligence for the simple fact that he has an entire deific realm. What other vampire intelligence can claim that?

However, you make a good point by pointing out that Dragon's and Gods came out long before Vampire Kingdoms. So that could definitely be the issue.

[Shawn Merrow]

However, you make a good point by pointing out that Dragon's and Gods came out long before Vampire Kingdoms. So that could definitely be the issue.

You, got that reversed.

Rifts World Book One: Vampire Kingdoms (1991)
Dragons & Gods (1996)

[FreelancerMar]

The very First PB Book to Feature VI's was BTS 1st edition.

VI's are also considered Minor/Lesser Old One style AI's

PB probably went with the VI for PFRPG in order to go Megaversal.

[everloss]

However, you make a good point by pointing out that Dragon's and Gods came out long before Vampire Kingdoms. So that could definitely be the issue.

You, got that reversed.

Rifts World Book One: Vampire Kingdoms (1991)
Dragons & Gods (1996)

There was a problem between my brain and my fingers when I was typing. I meant it the other way around.

[cornholioprime]

Sooo Vampires are from Hades????

Not necessarily.

There are (at least) two types of Demonic Beings in the Palladium Megaverse.

Demons (and Deevils) from Hades and Dyval.....and Demons from everywhere else. For example, the Soul Hunters who come from (Dark)Lord knows where.

In other books, non-Hades/Dyval demonic creatures are often referred to as "Archaic Demons" (seeing as those other beings have 'always' been around, while Hades/Dyval Demons and Deevils are said in some quarters to have been more recently created by the Old Ones as a potentially endless source of cannon fodder and/or entertainment, due in large part to their conditional immortality and indestructibility).

[tuvermage]

why are demons and Deevils so wimpy by comparrison? I had a rather new player (to Palladium) complain rather firmly that the demons in my game were way to wimpy and easy to kill. The party wiped the floor with a Baal-Rog pretty easily at 6th level. I had no good response. When the same party was only level 1 however they came up against a lone, wild vampire and the little beastie ripped apart 3 of the 8 members in the group before they put him down. After the Baal-Rog incident I compared Vampires to demons and found that on paper a Master Vampire could beat a Baal-Rog more often then not. A Baal-Rog is one of the more powerful Demons according to the book so why is a vampire more powerful? Heck, demons and deevils don't even get an immunity to normal weapons that I can find. Even a wild Vampire has that going for him. I know Vampires have a lot of stipulations and weeknesses to 'ballance' them out, but a smart Vampire (hello he's a Master) can neutralize many of them just by controling their environment or using simple tactics. No windows: check, no running water within miles: check, an escape route that only mist can follow: check. Seperate vampire hunters into smaller groups: check, Always have minions as fodder & never ever fight alone: check, Target clergy first: check. You get the idea.

Baal-Rog are very clever and low to gather magically items on top of their own magic. Baal-Rog are going to know the weaknesses of Vampires and in a one on one would probably beat the Vampire, however I doubt that either a Baal-Rog or a Master Vampire would ever fight one on one and then it would become a question of which has the larger or more skilled army.

Baal-Rog make great NPCs I used one so well that the player (as well as the character) now has a phobia of them. it was great taking him to see LoTR when the Baal-Rog came out he freaked out.

[Armorlord]

I have to go with the "wasn't played right". In fact, I want to double underline, highlight, bold, all caps, and the largest font humanly possible "wasn't played right"

Besides the factors of things like turn invisible at will, see invisible, and bio-regen...

Animate and Control Dead- as a fifth level caster, that's 7 skeletons. Not much, granted, but enough to cause a little bit of chaos for the pc's.

Level 1-4 fire elemental magic:
*darkness, cloud of smoke, cloud of ash, cloud of steam- all great for blinding the party
*heat object- pc's armor/weapons. Nothing like trying to fight when you're in constant burning pain
*spontaneous combustion- on pc quivers of arrows. Or clothing. Let that mage cast spells while his robes are on fire! All of that helps limit ranged attacks, and remember, baalrogs FLY
*not to mention the combative spells

PLUS, you must consider that baalrogs love to collect magical items, to include scrolls and weapons.

PLUS, the kicker- even if the baalrog DOES start to lose... he can go for his dimensional teleport (I would use the same 5th level caster level as his spell magic)

Plus, they've now made an enemy that will return one day, and his lord can question him about who defeated him. If they foiled an important mission, they could have an even more powerful enemy aware of them.

Remember, the demon isn't killed, merely defeated and recuperating in his home dimension.

[Malakai]

Thread Necromancy!

I was just looking up the Baal-Rog stats for an upcoming HU game and noticed this severe downgrade (compared to the Rifts version). Seeing as the SDC and HP seems to be the big issue here, I think I have a simple solution: for the Greater Demons/Deevils, simply multiply the base SDC and HP given by their level - an easy upgrade. Given the minimum level for a Baal-Rog is 5 (1D4+4), that means the average SDC for a low-level one is 250, with 490 HP.

Thoughts?

[Goliath Strongarm]

Thread Necromancy!

I was just looking up the Baal-Rog stats for an upcoming HU game and noticed this severe downgrade (compared to the Rifts version). Seeing as the SDC and HP seems to be the big issue here, I think I have a simple solution: for the Greater Demons/Deevils, simply multiply the base SDC and HP given by their level - an easy upgrade. Given the minimum level for a Baal-Rog is 5 (1D4+4), that means the average SDC for a low-level one is 250, with 490 HP.

Thoughts?

My thoughts have always been that the book version of demons and deevils is the "basic model". Basically, a newb Baal-Rog is level 1d4+4 (yeah, even as new, he can have 5-8 levels. This is freshly made from.. wherever the heck demons and deevils are made.

And then, throw an OCC on top of it. They also get the SDC based on their OCC selection.

And for HP, what I TYPICALLY (campaign dependant) do is odd levels get 2d6+PE (50/50 split SDC & HP) bonus and even levels get 1d6+PE bonus. There was one game, extremely high powered, where I instead went 2d6+PE bonus (split 50/50 HP & SDC) every level.

[zyanitevp]

I have been using the Hades and Dyval heavily for my Demons and Deevils...Love Carl Gleba's work, so any excuse....