Vigilante/Hunter from Heroes Unlimted

[Razzinold]

Ok I have never rolled a character up from Heroes Unlimited and I've never GM'd an HU game (Well until now). I have a player that wants to be the Hunter from HU Revised (white cover) and I have a question about how his character is rolled up. It states he does not roll for education level like other classes instead a list of programs is found. Now my question is, does he get all those programs listed or does he have to pick one ?

My second question is he wants his character to have Moo Gi Gong from Ninjas & Superspies (pg 98), which is also a game system I am unfamiliar with since I mostly just played Rifts all these years, is this something you would allow ?
It does state he can trade HTH Expert for Martial Arts/Assassin for the cost of a skill but I know that's referring to the standard Martial Arts found in the HU book. Ninjas/Superspies states that it takes 10 years to learn this fighting style so I'm leaning towards saying no based on the fact if he spent 10 years learning this style how did he spend all those other years honing his skills as a hunter ? He would also have to come up with a good back story (assuming I allow it) on where he learned this style of fighting.

Thanks in advance for any help/advice

[Pepsi Jedi]

I THINK....... think.. there are rules in N&SS about using them in other games. I.E. how many skill selections you have to give up to get them. But it's been years since I've really tried to cross system in that way.

Depending on the martial art it might not be that big a deal. It depends if he wants the mystical stuff that comes across with some of them. The one in question, Moo Gi Gong, I remember, I liked it when I was like 15. It's "Anything you find laying around is suddenly a weapon and you're proficient in it" These are the guys that pick up news papers, paper clips, toenail shavings, angry bird plushies and what not and beat the crap out of people with it. lol Like I said. When you're 15 it sounds awesome. As a GM you should realize, your player is tryig to take one martial art and get _____________ALL_________________ melee weapon WP skills. and at +1 or so more than normal. It's kinda a twink thing. It's "I'm going to pay a skill or two for this martial art and get 20 weapon preferences for free.

It's not going to 'break your game' or anything. especially if you're in a super powered game. But just go into it eyes open if you want to let um get away with it. lol.

[Regularguy]

It does state he can trade HTH Expert for Martial Arts/Assassin for the cost of a skill but I know that's referring to the standard Martial Arts found in the HU book. Ninjas/Superspies states that it takes 10 years to learn this fighting style so I'm leaning towards saying no based on the fact if he spent 10 years learning this style how did he spend all those other years honing his skills as a hunter ?

How old would this guy be without taking Moo Gi Gong? Take that and add 10, figuring he grew up in a monastery or something before heading out into the world and wound up apprenticing himself to a big-game hunter who ran safaris or whatever -- at which point the kid had an easy time "honing his skills as a hunter" since he was already (a) terrific at bowhunting and spearfishing, sure as he was (b) hacking his way through the underbrush like he'd been handling a machete for years.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Hunter/vigilantism might also not really mesh with the Zen/Buddhism of that martial art?

[Severus Snape]

The rules for selecting a martial art form (per canon) are in N&SS on pages 164-165. For this specific character build (Hunter/Vigilante, wanting to take Moo Gi Gong):

Special Training: Hunter/Vigilante characters for Heroes Unlimited can select ONE martial arts form at a cost of ONE physical skill or two secondary skills. No "exclusive" forms.

Moo Gi Gong is not an exclusive form, so he can do it. But that seems way out there, doesn't it? I mean, you can't select an exclusive form, but only 1 physical skill or 2 secondary skills? Really?

[Pepsi Jedi]

I guess it's considered part of their specialty training to keep them alive when duking it out with the juggernaut or something. Checked the page and Snape is right.

[AlanGunhouse]

One physical skill, 2 secondary skills AND their normal hand to hand combat skill...given that you can only have one hand to hand skill on a character at a time.

[Regularguy]

Hunter/vigilantism might also not really mesh with the Zen/Buddhism of that martial art?

Some arts have attribute and alignment restrictions. This one has neither.

Moo Gi Gong is not an exclusive form, so he can do it. But that seems way out there, doesn't it? I mean, you can't select an exclusive form, but only 1 physical skill or 2 secondary skills? Really?

Shucks, various N&SS classes let you take an HtH or -- at the cost of no skills -- a non-exclusive form. Is the Hunter really so much better than a Wired Agent (who can help along his skills and martial artistry with a couple of cover identities and a bunch of bionic parts) or a Commando Mercenary (who can even opt for assorted exclusive forms) that he needs to swap out more than a skill or two?

[Razzinold]

ok so he gives up one physical skill or two secondary, so when it says under his own occ one from the manhunter program or skill of choice that only applies to the regular MA skill from the HU book I take it ? What about the skill programs listed, does he get all of them ?

On a personal note it does seem rather weak that he gives up one skill to acquire EVERY ancient WP with a +1 bonus, plus WP for all paired weapons and yes he will want the mystic power that goes along with it. also what is multiple dodge ? is that similar to auto dodge where it does not take an action to preform it ? even though it's book legal I may not allow it, this was supposed to be a lower powered game, i never even wanted super powers but they bugged for them. My original idea was everybody was just a regular human (played in an SDC environment) but had skills like bypassing alarms, cracking safes, that kind of stuff but everyone else though it was too "low powered" and eventually it turned into they could be anything found in the HU book, but now the one guy wants to cross books.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Then just go "While the rules don't disallow it. I don't think it meshes will with the rest of the character. You're giving up too little for too much return. and it's twinky (( that martial art IS pretty twinky. lol ))

You can limit him to some of the more 'Normal' martial arts if you want.

[Severus Snape]

One physical skill, 2 secondary skills AND their normal hand to hand combat skill...given that you can only have one hand to hand skill on a character at a time.

It's one physical OR 2 secondary per the book. You are right about giving up the "normal" HTH skill, though. If I was the GM, here's how I'd rule (and I'll probably do this from here on out):

In order to get a martial art, first you have to spend the necessary skills to get HTH:MA. Then you not only give that up for the form you are selecting (meaning you get no bonuses for having HTH:MA on top of whatever form you take), you also have to go by the conversion listed in N&SS. In the case of the Hunter, he'd have to spend 3 skills to get to MA, then give up MA plus 1 physical or 2 secondary skills to get the form he wants. In essence, he's giving up 5-6 skills just to get an MA form. And a non-exclusive one at that. I guess that's not so bad when you think about it.

[Razzinold]

In the case of the Hunter, he'd have to spend 3 skills to get to MA, then give up MA plus 1 physical or 2 secondary skills to get the form he wants. In essence, he's giving up 5-6 skills just to get an MA form. And a non-exclusive one at that. I guess that's not so bad when you think about it.

Doesn't he only have to give up 1 physical or 2 secondary to get HTH MA ? where are you getting the third skill from ? then give up whatever the NSS says to get his new style ?

Also what about the programs ? Nobody has said if he gets all of them or has to choose ?

And it's a little more then anything as a weapon, he gets every ancient WP, +1 to damage with all objects, critical strikes, critical strike from rear bonuses to his stats (which yes i know all provide that) the mystical stuff he gets, and I think it's very twinky that in his hand all objects do 1d6 damage. so he attacks with a sponge doing 6 points of damage ?

also he's played a character before (not in our group) with this style and i know he knows the loopholes to abuse it. honestly i think i'm tired of him playing the same kind of characters over and over time for him to live a little. Also story wise, why would a guy who spends most of his time in the woods hunting animals be some awesome kung fu master ? yes I know they make the progression to hunting humans but i still don't see him engaging with bare hands when he as skills like quick draw and paired weapons. Too me it seems like he's just trying to tweak all aspects of his character (he's been accused of power gaming by his old group and some of them joined our new one along with him and have started whispering it behind his back that he's power gaming again)

as for their battles, they are only going to be facing supers, because they decided to be supers, like i said before i originally wanted no powers, just humans, like the vigilante or analytical genius but other pushed for powers and i gave in.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Moo Gi Gong isn't that twinky, it's just melee weapons/thrown weapons.

How many can this guy carry?

How is it going to help him against someone wearing basic body armor?

Nevermind virtually any super?


If you want a training character who can use all ancient weapons, Ancient Weapon Master IS an existing category.

Go read it, for the cost of 1 or 2 skills, he gets, WP Axe, WP, Knife, WP blunt, WP Chain, Wp Spear, Wp hammer, Wp forked, wp staff, wp large sword, wp short sword, wp thrown weapons, wp paired, (( and any other I can't remember off hand)), ALL of those at +1 to strike and paired for all of them. Death blow, ect

AND literally anything he sees becomes a weapon. he could pick up a hotdog and do 1d6 damage with it, or throw a potato chip for 1D4. He can spit sunflower seeds for 1d4 damage, or use a flower as a stabbing weapon for 1d6.

you also get one body hardening techniquic, or you can trade it for another skill program (( making up for those one or two skills spent))

It's pretty much the definition of twinky. How's it goint to help him vs someone wearing body armor? the weapons all work against armor. There's no specificity that it has to be against soft targets. he can stab at your body armor with a credit card and wittle you down.

And all of that's just to start, you get extra stuff as you level up, extra attacks additions to damage, additional body hardening or skill programs, extra attacks (( like chokes with anything flexable)) ect

[bathawk]

I would go with the rules found in N&SS pg.164...and I agree that for a "normal" giving up a physical skill/two secondary is goign to have a much bigger impact on him than other "super" characters

But it's also somewhat considered "out of date, case in point, pg48 of the HU core book states ONLY Special/Physical training can take N&SS martial arts (your mutant, expieriemtn ect; is out of luck)....I ignore that page though, if a Hunter/vigilante can learn Aikido, why can't my Mutant? (who had the extra time as he didn't spend as much time training in other areas)

Then again you may want to tell your player that if "N&SS trumps HU....that Moo Gi Gong characters only start out with two attacks per melee....N&SS charcaters have comparitively fewer attacks than the "standard" martial arts in other games...I assumed because of all the extra advantages they get from chi,atemi, zenjorike ect; that less attacks meant balance....I think others assume that a N&SS character gets 2 attacks above the base (so your player would start with 4) but it's up to you how much rules lawyering you want to do.... but having only two attacks does help balance the twink factor of a Moo Gi Gong charcater vs. the Anchient Weapons Master category

[Regularguy]

What about the skill programs listed, does he get all of them ?

Yep.

also what is multiple dodge ? is that similar to auto dodge where it does not take an action to preform it ?

No, it means spending an action on dodge gives him a shot at dodging every attack (including those from behind) during that action. So if, say, he makes his first action a multiple dodge -- well, then, he (a) launches no attack, but gets to roll a dodge attempt against any attacks anyone makes as their first action, and then (b) can attack, or multiple dodge a second time, when the time comes for everybody's second action of the round.

and I think it's very twinky that in his hand all objects do 1d6 damage. so he attacks with a sponge doing 6 points of damage ?

I think that's an exaggeration; the key phrase is "anything from pencils, to bottles, to credit cards": a salad fork, sure; a screwdriver, absolutely; a sponge, not so much. (He'll eventually gain the ability to make choke attacks with flexible items like t-shirts, but leave that aside for now.)

Besides, who cares that he can do d6 damage with an object? By comparison, HtH martial arts let you fire off 2d4+2 kicks, and Physical Training -- which also grants paired weapons (all) -- lets you intersperse automatic body flip/throw attacks with the occasional 3d6 roundhouse kick. Is this guy really going to be hitting that much harder than your campaign's other HU characters?

Also story wise, why would a guy who spends most of his time in the woods hunting animals be some awesome kung fu master ? yes I know they make the progression to hunting humans but i still don't see him engaging with bare hands when he as skills like quick draw and paired weapons.

Well, yeah. That's precisely why he doesn't want a martial art that lets him excel bare-handed; he's a guy who'd rather spear a boar from a distance, at which point he'd dress the kill with his trusty hunting knife. He spends a lot of time handling weapons.

and yes he will want the mystic power that goes along with it.

Granted, but Moo Gi Gong is pretty vanilla in that regard. I mean, Tien-Hsueh lets you turn invisible, launch delayed-death strikes, break the sound barrier on foot, send your mind out of your body to spy on people halfway around the world -- there's a lot of mystical kung-fu stuff that MGG doesn't grant access to, since it's more about toughening up or building initiative (or, of course, practicing marksmanship).

[Pepsi Jedi]

Moo Gi Gong isn't that twinky, it's just melee weapons/thrown weapons.

How many can this guy carry?

How is it going to help him against someone wearing basic body armor?

Nevermind virtually any super?


If you want a training character who can use all ancient weapons, Ancient Weapon Master IS an existing category.

Go read it, for the cost of 1 or 2 skills, he gets, WP Axe, WP, Knife, WP blunt, WP Chain, Wp Spear, Wp hammer, Wp forked, wp staff, wp large sword, wp short sword, wp thrown weapons, wp paired, (( and any other I can't remember off hand)), ALL of those at +1 to strike and paired for all of them. Death blow, ect

AND literally anything he sees becomes a weapon. he could pick up a hotdog and do 1d6 damage with it, or throw a potato chip for 1D4. He can spit sunflower seeds for 1d4 damage, or use a flower as a stabbing weapon for 1d6.

you also get one body hardening techniquic, or you can trade it for another skill program (( making up for those one or two skills spent))

It's pretty much the definition of twinky. How's it goint to help him vs someone wearing body armor? the weapons all work against armor. There's no specificity that it has to be against soft targets. he can stab at your body armor with a credit card and wittle you down.

And all of that's just to start, you get extra stuff as you level up, extra attacks additions to damage, additional body hardening or skill programs, extra attacks (( like chokes with anything flexable)) ect

By your argument the Ranged Ancient Weapon Master is one of the most powerful characters in the book, since they can do all of that with a bottle cap from 20 feet away.

Sorry, being able to do 1d4 to 1d6 damage with an improvised weapon isn't that impressive.

By this argument charge object with explosive energy, negative matter, telekinesis, and any other "turn ordinary stuff into weapons" abilities are far and away the most powerful in the game, right?

Well. you're not looking at the entire thing. The ranged weapons master is 1) Ranged and 2) Completely with out the special skills of the Hunter Vigilante. the disguise scent, trap animals, modify bullets, quick draw, or WP Sharpshooter, they also don't have the access to $40,000 budget or the 4 skill programs, and you're sort of glossing over the thrown weapon thing. It says thrown weapons. Not bottle caps. You do not get the "anything is a weapon" in your hands with that category, you get throwing weapons, be they knives, throwing stars, spikes ect. and 3) The Ancient Weapons Master cannot use modern weapons (( the specialty of the hunter/vigilante)

Nor is it a category in and of itself with the N&SS martial art placed on top of it.

Is Ancient Weapons Master: Ranged, impressive? Yeah it's a super category on it's own. It's not itself as well as the hunter/vigilante category put together.

Don't get me wrong, when you're a kid and want as much kool powrz as you can cram in, you do things like that. Take a class and tack another one on top of it then use martial arts that give you dozens of Weapon preferences all at once.

If the guy wants THAT... why play the hunter Vigilante at all? Why not just play the Ancient Weapons Master?

[Pepsi Jedi]

By your argument the Ranged Ancient Weapon Master is one of the most powerful characters in the book, since they can do all of that with a bottle cap from 20 feet away.

Sorry, being able to do 1d4 to 1d6 damage with an improvised weapon isn't that impressive.

By this argument charge object with explosive energy, negative matter, telekinesis, and any other "turn ordinary stuff into weapons" abilities are far and away the most powerful in the game, right?

Well. you're not looking at the entire thing. The ranged weapons master is 1) Ranged and 2) Completely with out the special skills of the Hunter Vigilante. the disguise scent, trap animals, modify bullets, quick draw, or WP Sharpshooter, they also don't have the access to $40,000 budget or the 4 skill programs, and you're sort of glossing over the thrown weapon thing. It says thrown weapons. Not bottle caps. You do not get the "anything is a weapon" in your hands with that category, you get throwing weapons, be they knives, throwing stars, spikes ect. and 3) The Ancient Weapons Master cannot use modern weapons (( the specialty of the hunter/vigilante)

You can make the AWM with both categories.
They've got their own version of modifying weaponry, quickdraw, and a sharpshooter ability for ranged weapons.

It says "paperclips, coins, ball-point pens" can be used as ranged weapons.

Where? Closest I saw was baseball.

Nor is it a category in and of itself with the N&SS martial art placed on top of it.

It wouldn't really be fair if you compared the Hunter+Martial Art vs AWM by itself, so it should probably be AWM+Martial Art vs Hunter+Martial Art.

You're still dodging the rules and having multiple category then. If you read the AWM it states clearly that they're 100% focused on the weapons and with out them, they are 'Greatly diminished in combat and fairly helpless (( PU2 Pg 90)). they're not supposed to be an Ancient master, AND an Ancient WEAPONS master both.

Is Ancient Weapons Master: Ranged, impressive? Yeah it's a super category on it's own. It's not itself as well as the hunter/vigilante category put together.

Eh, different categories, and both have their upsides and downsides, and one could just as easily argue that the AWM gets more out of a martial art selection than a hunter probably would.

Yeah, they have dedicated decades of their life to a type of weapon. They're different. i'm not sure what your point is here?

Don't get me wrong, when you're a kid and want as much kool powrz as you can cram in, you do things like that. Take a class and tack another one on top of it then use martial arts that give you dozens of Weapon preferences all at once.

If the guy wants THAT... why play the hunter Vigilante at all? Why not just play the Ancient Weapons Master?

I do agree that MGG doesn't really suit the hunter, the obvious choice would be something like panther style kung fu.

Don't see where the "when you want as many kool powrz" bit comes from, they aren't putting another class on top of the Hunter, they're giving the Hunter a martial art, one which is perfectly acceptable by the book I might add.

They're putting on a twinky martial art that gives unlimited melee weapon preferences, for the cost of one, or two skills, and unlimited hand to hand weapons to go along with the modern weapons which are the specialty of the power Category.

It's a mini-maxing twink move. Is it "Technically allowed by the rules" Yeah. Technically, but even the GM here said they were aiming for a low powered game and the situation described is not in the 'intent of the class.'. If you want that, play the ancient weapons master. why go for both?

It's not like they are trying to squeak a Hunter with Thai Kickboxing and a Super Invention past a GM or anything.

But it is. They're trying to get the hunter bonous with the tracking and the rifle and wht not, and get every hand to hand weapon as well.

[AlanGunhouse]

Impressive how? There are lots of impressive powers, each in their own way.

[Regularguy]

I do agree that MGG doesn't really suit the hunter, the obvious choice would be something like panther style kung fu.

Moo Gi Gong lets you get "One Life, One Shot, One Hit, One Kill" marksmanship; panther style kung fu doesn't.

[Severus Snape]

In the case of the Hunter, he'd have to spend 3 skills to get to MA, then give up MA plus 1 physical or 2 secondary skills to get the form he wants. In essence, he's giving up 5-6 skills just to get an MA form. And a non-exclusive one at that. I guess that's not so bad when you think about it.

Doesn't he only have to give up 1 physical or 2 secondary to get HTH MA ? where are you getting the third skill from ? then give up whatever the NSS says to get his new style ?

You are correct. I re-read the Hunter, and he would have to give up 1 Manhunter skill to get to HTH:MA. Then he'd have to give up HTH:MA, plus 1 physical or 2 secondary skills, to get Moo Gi Gong.

Also what about the programs ? Nobody has said if he gets all of them or has to choose ?

I read it that he gets all of them. If he had to choose, do you honestly think he would take the Common & General Skills section? I wouldn't, even with the number of secondary skills you could end up with. I agree that there is no written ruling on skills for Hunter, but if you look at the Hardware or Physical Training PCCs, you'll see that the number of skills the Hunter gets isn't reall that far out there. It's a lot, yes. But no super powers or anything like that.

[Ronin Shinobi]

One physical skill, 2 secondary skills AND their normal hand to hand combat skill...given that you can only have one hand to hand skill on a character at a time.

For that martial art, even if its not exclusive is still not going be readily available as those you see littering mini malls or driving down your city block. It would require more commitment to learn. I would say he would have to lose a skill program if he wants to learn it.

[Regularguy]

Yes it does.

OLOSOHOK is a martial arts technique, Pao Pat Mei lets you get 2 MA techs or arts of invisibility, or body hardening techniques.

Moo Gi Gong lets you get 1 MA tech or Body Hardening tech.

Dangit, that's what I get for quick-clicking on Mantisking's "by the numbers" thread instead of digging out my book.

[Regularguy]

For that martial art, even if its not exclusive is still not going be readily available as those you see littering mini malls or driving down your city block.

Can't he just say his dad knew Moo Gi Gong?

[Pepsi Jedi]

For that martial art, even if its not exclusive is still not going be readily available as those you see littering mini malls or driving down your city block.

Can't he just say his dad knew Moo Gi Gong?

There's always ways to justify twinkdom. "My daddy/mommy/uncle/cousin gave it to me/left it to me/told/taught me" is day one twink class. (Yes I'm aware Batman's parents left him money, but he was first. You're not. And you're no batman either. *G*))

[Ronin Shinobi]

For that martial art, even if its not exclusive is still not going be readily available as those you see littering mini malls or driving down your city block.

Can't he just say his dad knew Moo Gi Gong?

Still would take time to train and thus the character's interest will have to be spit. The removal of a educational program, and they do have some still, even with the long list given represents that time he took out to master the art.

[Regularguy]

Still would take time to train and thus the character's interest will have to be spit. The removal of a educational program, and they do have some still, even with the long list given represents that time he took out to master the art.

I don't see that it's that long a time to train; becoming a Hunter can take 8 years or 18, by HU, right? And learning Moo Gi Gong takes 10 years? So if you're the kind of guy who breezed through Hunter training in 8 years, you have exactly enough time to spend 10 learning Moo Gi Gong (which, again, is probably why you then breezed through Hunter training in a book-legal 8 years: you already knew bowhunting and spearfishing, you already knew how to spear a boar and dress the kill with a broad-bladed hunting knife, and so on).

[Regularguy]

Can't he just say his dad knew Moo Gi Gong?

There's always ways to justify twinkdom. "My daddy/mommy/uncle/cousin gave it to me/left it to me/told/taught me" is day one twink class. (Yes I'm aware Batman's parents left him money, but he was first. You're not. And you're no batman either. *G*))

Hey, I already suggested he grew up in a monastery before heading out into the world, promptly apprenticing himself to an aging big-game hunter who ran safaris. What more do you want?

[Ronin Shinobi]

Training in a martial arts is not just matter of taking time to learn. Person will also have to keep up that training with physical exercises, meditation to focus his chi, preforming katas, kick drills, punching, sparing with someone, list can go on. Factor in he's probably then has to go to range and shoot to keep his marksmanship up. Train in his stealth and study tracking so hon in his hunting skill. Granted, its not all gong to be done in one day but they are all still time consuming. Remember, were talking about a marital arts here that goes beyond the typical skill you take in the book so there will have to be sacrifices to make it possible. Unless person doesn't sleep they're going to have to lose something in exchange. Especial since Moo Gi Gong gives you abilities and access to other marital arts powers in N&SS that the the standard martial arts HtH doesn't. Has to be a check and balance.

[Nightmask]

For that martial art, even if its not exclusive is still not going be readily available as those you see littering mini malls or driving down your city block.

Can't he just say his dad knew Moo Gi Gong?

There's always ways to justify twinkdom. "My daddy/mommy/uncle/cousin gave it to me/left it to me/told/taught me" is day one twink class. (Yes I'm aware Batman's parents left him money, but he was first. You're not. And you're no batman either. *G*))

Nothing twinkish about a Hunter/Vigilante having Moo Gi Gong, a player can manage having Weapon Proficiencies in nearly everything even while taking the generic MA. Many of the N&SS OCC that have access to more than a couple Military Skill selections can easily have every available WP if they choose. You aren't getting anything particularly special in regards to bonuses from the MA and you can't use them with the many modern WP that are part of the special skills of the class.

[Nightmask]

Training in a martial arts is not just matter of taking time to learn. Person will also have to keep up that training with physical exercises, meditation to focus his chi, preforming katas, kick drills, punching, sparing with someone, list can go on. Factor in he's probably then has to go to range and shoot to keep his marksmanship up. Train in his stealth and study tracking so hon in his hunting skill. Granted, its not all gong to be done in one day but they are all still time consuming. Remember, were talking about a marital arts here that goes beyond the typical skill you take in the book so there will have to be sacrifices to make it possible. Unless person doesn't sleep they're going to have to lose something in exchange. Especial since Moo Gi Gong gives you abilities and access to other marital arts powers in N&SS that the the standard martial arts HtH doesn't. Has to be a check and balance.

Moo Gi Gong only gives you if memory serves access to 2 MA powers over its entire level advancement, and none of that is chi or special powers related. He's got almost nothing when it comes to hand-to-hand as it's an item-focused MA like Zanji Shinjinken-Ryu so many of the bonuses are meant for use with weapons. Given what it costs to give up the generic MA available that's certainly enough to cover explaining the time spent particularly given the character is already considered to be engaging in all that kind of combat training with that default MA he's just switching the kind of training he's getting so rather than his training being the default it was the other. Shouldn't really be any problems or aging penalties to add to the class (just as they were dropped from the Mystic China supplement).

[Pepsi Jedi]

Still would take time to train and thus the character's interest will have to be spit. The removal of a educational program, and they do have some still, even with the long list given represents that time he took out to master the art.

I don't see that it's that long a time to train; becoming a Hunter can take 8 years or 18, by HU, right? And learning Moo Gi Gong takes 10 years? So if you're the kind of guy who breezed through Hunter training in 8 years, you have exactly enough time to spend 10 learning Moo Gi Gong (which, again, is probably why you then breezed through Hunter training in a book-legal 8 years: you already knew bowhunting and spearfishing, you already knew how to spear a boar and dress the kill with a broad-bladed hunting knife, and so on).

Can you? sure, but that's sort of taking away any sort of real world aspect of it. You're talking about 18 years training. Even if you start at 16 or so you're talking about a minimum starting age for that character of 34. And that's if you spent 10 years doing nothing but learning the martial art. You're going to be pretty out of touch with the world and almost middle aged when you start being the hero. while doing a char sheet, "18 years' might not sound huge (( though it does to me)) it should be factored in over all.

[Pepsi Jedi]

For that martial art, even if its not exclusive is still not going be readily available as those you see littering mini malls or driving down your city block.

Can't he just say his dad knew Moo Gi Gong?

There's always ways to justify twinkdom. "My daddy/mommy/uncle/cousin gave it to me/left it to me/told/taught me" is day one twink class. (Yes I'm aware Batman's parents left him money, but he was first. You're not. And you're no batman either. *G*))

Nothing twinkish about a Hunter/Vigilante having Moo Gi Gong, a player can manage having Weapon Proficiencies in nearly everything even while taking the generic MA. Many of the N&SS OCC that have access to more than a couple Military Skill selections can easily have every available WP if they choose. You aren't getting anything particularly special in regards to bonuses from the MA and you can't use them with the many modern WP that are part of the special skills of the class.

How do YOU define twinkish? Seriously. I'd like a definition from you please.

[Regularguy]

Can you? sure, but that's sort of taking away any sort of real world aspect of it. You're talking about 18 years training. Even if you start at 16 or so you're talking about a minimum starting age for that character of 34.

Uh, yeah. Again, leave N&SS out of it and just look at the Hunter/Vigilante entry in the HU book: some of 'em require 18 years of training, period.

And that's if you spent 10 years doing nothing but learning the martial art. You're going to be pretty out of touch with the world and almost middle aged when you start being the hero.

You seem to be assuming he trained as a hunter for maybe 8 years before spending 10 years in a monastery; I'm assuming he spent 10 years in a monastery before training as a worldly hunter for maybe 8 years.

while doing a char sheet, "18 years' might not sound huge (( though it does to me)) it should be factored in over all.

Again, for some Hunter/Vigilantes, that's what you factor in without any N&SS martial arts.

[Pepsi Jedi]

For that martial art, even if its not exclusive is still not going be readily available as those you see littering mini malls or driving down your city block.

Can't he just say his dad knew Moo Gi Gong?

There's always ways to justify twinkdom. "My daddy/mommy/uncle/cousin gave it to me/left it to me/told/taught me" is day one twink class. (Yes I'm aware Batman's parents left him money, but he was first. You're not. And you're no batman either. *G*))

I'm still baffled that THIS is what you call twinkish.

I mean, of all the classes you can add martial arts to, the special training ones are the most fitting, and the least unbalanced by the addition, yet this sets you off into "YOU'RE GONNA BREAK THE GAME!" mode?

It's twinkish because of how overused it is when people want 1337 powrz, but don't want to have to built a character concept to justify them. "How'd your char learn all this" "Like batman. His ultra rich parents left him money, he used that. Never had to work a day in his life"

Instead of having to put 3 seconds of mental effort into it to try and build a char that's not just Bruce Wayne in a different color outfit. Or Green Arrow... Or... or... or.. or....

"Mommy gave it to me" is a dodge. It lacks having to DO anything to achieve the _____. Be it money, (( You see it MOST with money, in any role playing game. If I could tell you how many char's in WoD I've disapproved or had the players change because they show up with 'Resources 5 "Trust fund".. *shudders*)) or power.

Can some people inherit super powers or the like. Sure. When all do it, as a 'simple reason' why he knows a martial art that takes 10 years to get to level 1 in it.. it's twinky. Or when you combine superpower categories, to get more powers and someone goes "Why does he have it" and the knee jerk is 'can't he just say his dad knew it'. Well yeah. he can, but it's far from original or even really likely. (( yes we're playing super heroes that blast lasers from their eyes, lol I realize that, but that martial art is pretty rare)) It's only taught in Korea.

So... there's something else you gotta bend and either ignore, or work around. Can your super hero be Korean? TOTALLY can. Might even be original in that. But most people play their American super heroes. (( Concider the audience)) and most aren't putting in 10 years in Korea to learn it.

It's also "Twinky" because.. you picked a martial art and tossed out a throw away reason to have it..... you didn't build a char up and in the character creation have it b a part of the char. You didn't have a boy who's dad was stationed in Korea and he grew up there, going to the Hwarang do temple, but learning Moo instead, and for years he lived at the temple soaking up everything they could teach him. Putting in a Decade of hard work, dedicating his life to learning this hard and rare martial art. Then when his dad left Korea he went out on his own and learned how to be a hunter. Putting in almost a decade learning those arts in conjunction with his previous decade of armed combat training.

You went, "I've got a hunter, I want this martial art that has every hand held weapon preferency for free. But it's pretty rare. Oh. I'll just say his dad knew it. Done"

[Severus Snape]

All this talk over how long it takes someone who is a hunter to learn Moo Gi Gong is making my head hurt. At what point are the training times split from one another? I've seen that it takes 18 years to become a hunter, and then 10 to learn Moo Gi Gong. Why is it assumed that the training for each is separate from one another? If the character has to drop skills in order to pick up the martial art - skills that are, according to the book, part of his training to become a hunter - then why can't it be assumed that learning the martial art was part of his hunter training?

Think about it this way: You get all those skills for being a hunter, and you get them because that's what you were trained in for those 18 years. Ok, so instead of taking all those manhunter skills, you drop 1 to get HTHMA, then drop HTHMA and 2 secondary skills to pick up Moo Gi Gong AS PART OF YOUR HUNTER TRAINING. So instead of having to spend 28 freaking years on training, you still only train for 18. You start early enough (plenty of martial artists start training almost as soon as they can walk), and you're talking about a hunter who's only 20-22 years old.

So why is everyone assuming the training is separate from one another?

[Regularguy]

You went, "I've got a hunter, I want this martial art that has every hand held weapon preferency for free. But it's pretty rare. Oh. I'll just say his dad knew it. Done"

He's not the one who said that; I'd said that, and I'd said it after proposing a different explanation.

(Which was, in fact, pretty much the exact one you're now suggesting: "for years he lived at the temple soaking up everything they could teach him. Putting in a Decade of hard work, dedicating his life to learning this hard and rare martial art ... he went out on his own and learned how to be a hunter. Putting in almost a decade learning those arts in conjunction with his previous decade of armed combat training.")

[Severus Snape]

And if oyu want to talk twinkies...

The Stage Magician can drop 2 physical skills (plus 3 secondary to get to HTHMA) and pick up an exclusive form. That may sound like a lot of skills, but let's see what exclusive forms are available:

Aikido
Hwarang-Do Karate
Ninjitsu (although this counts as 2 MA Forms)
Sumo
Thai Kick Boxing
Tien-Hsueh Touch Mastery
Wui Wing Chun

And if we're being twinkies, I'd go with Hwarang-Do. 3 APM, 2 power from Body Hardening/MA/Special Katas. 1st level gets critical strike on natural 20 and +2 to damage. And it only takes 6 years to learn.

And if we're really getting cream-filled, check out what N&SS does to the Ancient Master on page 164. Holy throwing stars, batman!

[Nightmask]

Let's be honest in this discussion. First and foremost, for the OP:

ALL Special Training characters get their associated skill programs (The H/V, the Secret Operative, the Super Sleuth); they don't select from the list, that is the list that ALL characters get (think O.C.C.))

Deducting one Physical or Two Secondary Skills to gain Moo Gi Gong will make the character proficient in ancient weapons, but only melee. Also as per typical Palladium rules, one has to upgrade to HTH: Martial Arts first before choosing an N&S Martial Arts Style. So the character would have to drop one Manhunter skill to get HTH: Martial Arts first.

As for the dynamics, the player wants a character to be versatile with weapons, which is completely understandable. Versatile doesn't equal expert, and the might have problems if you pit him against Glaciator, Evil Eye, Electrocutioner, or any kind of character with a control power. Heck, even the Beseiger might give him some serious problems in hand to hand combat.

I haven't seen any Palladium rules that require someone to 'buy' up to HtH: MA before choosing a specialized MA from N&SS or Mystic China. It says 'power category X spends Physical Skills/Secondary Skills Y/Z to acquire a non-exclusive MA', not that one must acquire HtH: MA before they can acquire those others.

[Mercdog]

Just a quick note,

IIRC, Moo Gi Gong is fairly impressive IF you have something to use as a weapon. If you have to go at it bareknuckle though, the form is much less impressive.

[Nightmask]

It's twinkish because of how overused it is when people want 1337 powrz, but don't want to have to built a character concept to justify them. "How'd your char learn all this" "Like batman. His ultra rich parents left him money, he used that. Never had to work a day in his life"

That's not twinkish, that's cliche or going with a stock answer.

Instead of having to put 3 seconds of mental effort into it to try and build a char that's not just Bruce Wayne in a different color outfit. Or Green Arrow... Or... or... or.. or....

"Mommy gave it to me" is a dodge. It lacks having to DO anything to achieve the _____. Be it money, (( You see it MOST with money, in any role playing game. If I could tell you how many char's in WoD I've disapproved or had the players change because they show up with 'Resources 5 "Trust fund".. *shudders*)) or power.

EVERYTHING the character has was just given it, and there's nothing wrong with going the trust fund route. It wouldn't be an option if it wasn't a sought after choice by players for their characters. The majority of heroes and villains didn't do anything to achieve what they got, they got hit by radiation, bit by radioactive spiders, or just born that way.

Can some people inherit super powers or the like. Sure. When all do it, as a 'simple reason' why he knows a martial art that takes 10 years to get to level 1 in it.. it's twinky. Or when you combine superpower categories, to get more powers and someone goes "Why does he have it" and the knee jerk is 'can't he just say his dad knew it'. Well yeah. he can, but it's far from original or even really likely. (( yes we're playing super heroes that blast lasers from their eyes, lol I realize that, but that martial art is pretty rare)) It's only taught in Korea.

Again that's not twinky. Everything takes some time to learn, you don't go adding the 12 years of medical or law school to a character's age when they have 'Education level-Doctorate'. For the same reason you don't go giving someone extra years for learning Moo Gi Gong or any of the other MA from N&SS, it's already covered in character creation and backstory. Those ages are intended for characters built around the OCC rules in N&SS which has decidedly different starting ages than Heroes Unlimited and makes your combat training as something you have to add on top of that unlike HU.

Edit:

Oh, and the idea that Batman laid around and didn't do anything and worked for nothing because he's a trust fund baby is pretty laughable. Just the opposite is the case, ever since his parents were murdered he dedicated himself to becoming the best he could be for battling crime and the only time he's ever had a day he wasn't doing something and working he was unconscious or otherwise recovering from injuries from his career as a vigilante.

[Ronin Shinobi]

All this talk over how long it takes someone who is a hunter to learn Moo Gi Gong is making my head hurt. At what point are the training times split from one another? I've seen that it takes 18 years to become a hunter, and then 10 to learn Moo Gi Gong. Why is it assumed that the training for each is separate from one another? If the character has to drop skills in order to pick up the martial art - skills that are, according to the book, part of his training to become a hunter - then why can't it be assumed that learning the martial art was part of his hunter training?

Think about it this way: You get all those skills for being a hunter, and you get them because that's what you were trained in for those 18 years. Ok, so instead of taking all those manhunter skills, you drop 1 to get HTHMA, then drop HTHMA and 2 secondary skills to pick up Moo Gi Gong AS PART OF YOUR HUNTER TRAINING. So instead of having to spend 28 freaking years on training, you still only train for 18. You start early enough (plenty of martial artists start training almost as soon as they can walk), and you're talking about a hunter who's only 20-22 years old.

So why is everyone assuming the training is separate from one another?

You can train them all at once and still be in the late teens and early twenties. What I'm referencing to by spitting is time is time in that character's day. Anyone that had or have any extra circular activity out side of school or work like marital can tell you to keep competitive in it, that they had to put a fair amount of time into training. With Moo Gi Gong giving them proficiency in all weapons. They also get bonus physically and extra SDC with this marital arts as well as one additional Martial arts power in body hardening category. Which can enhance his physical attributes more. Going to take a fair amount of time in that person's day even if they divide the training through out the week.

Now reading the Hunter class more I will say that it doesn't require lost of a skill group because I had assumed they still get 2 or 3 scholastic skill groups in addition to what they have listed. However Martial art is still going to require a lot of time to train and with the character learning other skills its going to take a bit more than lost of two secondary. I would say in addition to dropping the HtH given the have to lose the plus 3 in Secondary and either two Wilderness skills or the two rouge or Espionage skills, or communication ones.

[Regularguy]

Now reading the Hunter class more I will say that it doesn't require lost of a skill group because I had assumed they still get 2 or 3 scholastic sill groups in addition to what they have listed. However Martial art is still going to require a lot of time to train and with the character learning other skills its going to take a bit more than lost of two secondary. I would say in addition to dropping the HtH given the have to lose the plus 3 in Secondary and either two Wilderness skills or the two rouge or Espionage skills.

Out of curiosity, how do you feel about a Physical Training guy who doesn't merely work out enough to perform superhuman feats of strength but also maybe picked up PhD skill program after PhD skill program after PhD skill program -- or possibly specialized in hunter/vigilante skills -- and of course still found enough time to pick up his signature martial art, gaining proficiency with all paired weapons while learning punches and kicks that outstrip Moo Gi Gong's empty-handed options; where do you figure he found the time?

[Pepsi Jedi]

All this talk over how long it takes someone who is a hunter to learn Moo Gi Gong is making my head hurt. At what point are the training times split from one another? I've seen that it takes 18 years to become a hunter, and then 10 to learn Moo Gi Gong. Why is it assumed that the training for each is separate from one another? If the character has to drop skills in order to pick up the martial art - skills that are, according to the book, part of his training to become a hunter - then why can't it be assumed that learning the martial art was part of his hunter training?

Think about it this way: You get all those skills for being a hunter, and you get them because that's what you were trained in for those 18 years. Ok, so instead of taking all those manhunter skills, you drop 1 to get HTHMA, then drop HTHMA and 2 secondary skills to pick up Moo Gi Gong AS PART OF YOUR HUNTER TRAINING. So instead of having to spend 28 freaking years on training, you still only train for 18. You start early enough (plenty of martial artists start training almost as soon as they can walk), and you're talking about a hunter who's only 20-22 years old.

So why is everyone assuming the training is separate from one another?

In short, because it doesn't work like that. If you learn HTH "Martial arts" In heroes unlimited. It's assumed you learn them as part of your training. Sure you're going to the Dojo a few times a week, a few hours a week and with in a couple of years you can fight and call it HTH Martial Arts. This is the same sort of thing that anyone can learn. I have 5 years of Isshin Ryu, for example. A few years of Kendo and I Fenced competitively in college. No biggie.

Martial arts from N&SS aren't like that. For the most part they take years and years and years to master and that's working at them like a job. 9+ hours a day, every day (( Or at least 5 days a week)) For years. the difference? HTH Martial Arts from Heroes lets you fight. The Martial Arts in N&SS give you lists of moves, sometimes dozens. They give you free weapon preferences, often free physical skills, and often magical powers and such to go along with it, and are ---alot--- more powerful than the "HTH Martial Arts" in normal Heroes. They take dedication and advanced levels of training.

So no.. you really can't take one of the big ones and go "oh yeah I was learning that on the side for a decade while I was also undergoing intense training that propelled me into superhuman status beyond the ken of mortal men..... In this other way (Hunter/vigilante) At the same time.

Nor do you REALLY learn martial arts "As soon as you start to walk" Anyone who's been in a real martial arts class.(( I say real, as opposed to the ones that are basicly exercize classes in gi's)) Knows those kiddy types with the colored belts, are cute... they may know a few kata. But that's not the same thing as knowing the martial art.

I started Isshin Ryu at 15. And I went to tournaments pretty quick out of the gate. I would go up against supposed 15 year old black belts from the Tae Kwon Do school across town and totally trounce them. And I'm not ____THAT GOOD___ I surely wasn't at 15. Now... experiences can vary.. but out side a movie.. I don't care how well trained a 12 or 13 year old is... shy of an honest to goodness sholin monk. I can take out a 12 or 13 year old with one punch and not even pop a sweat. So could you! (( Well the hypothetical you. I'm sure there are some whimpy adults whom couldn't))

To learn and be able to apply a real martial art it takes body and mind. Sure you can learn the kata as a child, but untill you can back it up, some where in your teens, with the power and body control to go with it, it's not alot different from taking dance.

Now does learning the Kata early let you slip into the real stuff earlier? Sure. But the Martial arts from Ninja's and Superspies are SUPER Martial arts. You can't learn that stuff as a toddler. You can't start your training from like 3years old and tack on +10 and go "Yeah at 13 I'm a master of Moo Gi Gong. I put in 10 years at it!!"

[Ronin Shinobi]

Now reading the Hunter class more I will say that it doesn't require lost of a skill group because I had assumed they still get 2 or 3 scholastic sill groups in addition to what they have listed. However Martial art is still going to require a lot of time to train and with the character learning other skills its going to take a bit more than lost of two secondary. I would say in addition to dropping the HtH given the have to lose the plus 3 in Secondary and either two Wilderness skills or the two rouge or Espionage skills.

Out of curiosity, how do you feel about a Physical Training guy who doesn't merely work out enough to perform superhuman feats of strength but also maybe picked up PhD skill program after PhD skill program after PhD skill program -- or possibly specialized in hunter/vigilante skills -- and of course still found enough time to pick up his signature martial art, gaining proficiency with all paired weapons while learning punches and kicks that outstrip Moo Gi Gong's empty-handed options; where do you figure he found the time?

Well its a balance act and you have to draw the line where realism meets fantasy. Granted the martial arts listed in Mystic China and N&SS are specialized and requires additional time to train in and their needs to be a trade off, like loss of skill selections or even an entire skill group. However, with that said, the martial arts should be attainable with in a generalized reason. After all these are superheros were talking about. They are going to be sacrificing more than average Joe to get what they feel they need to fight crime.

For me it will be a combination of three things concerning Physical Training category. 1. What martial arts they're going for. 2. Story on how they learned said martial arts. 3. How in balancing will it be to let them have it. Its something like N&SS Taekwondo I would be more lean ant and let them have it with minus 2 or 3 skills in physical to represent their dire commitment than average person who walked in to take a class and walked out and not bother training until next class.. More exclusive martial arts like Moo Gi or even Ninjutsu would be more incline to have them loosing a skill group or two.

[Regularguy]

1. What martial arts they're going for. 2. Story on how they learned said martial arts. 3. How in balancing will it be to let them have it. Its something like N&SS Taekwondo I would be more lean ant and let them have it with minus 2 or 3 skills

I was talking about the PT's art in the HU book.

[Ronin Shinobi]

1. What martial arts they're going for. 2. Story on how they learned said martial arts. 3. How in balancing will it be to let them have it. Its something like N&SS Taekwondo I would be more lean ant and let them have it with minus 2 or 3 skills

I was talking about the PT's art in the HU book.

See what your getting at now, I would say no on combining the classes. They will have to choose either Physical training or Hunter. They can't have both and claim they were not good at one and switched just to get all the physical skills of PT.

[Severus Snape]

All this talk over how long it takes someone who is a hunter to learn Moo Gi Gong is making my head hurt. At what point are the training times split from one another? I've seen that it takes 18 years to become a hunter, and then 10 to learn Moo Gi Gong. Why is it assumed that the training for each is separate from one another? If the character has to drop skills in order to pick up the martial art - skills that are, according to the book, part of his training to become a hunter - then why can't it be assumed that learning the martial art was part of his hunter training?

Think about it this way: You get all those skills for being a hunter, and you get them because that's what you were trained in for those 18 years. Ok, so instead of taking all those manhunter skills, you drop 1 to get HTHMA, then drop HTHMA and 2 secondary skills to pick up Moo Gi Gong AS PART OF YOUR HUNTER TRAINING. So instead of having to spend 28 freaking years on training, you still only train for 18. You start early enough (plenty of martial artists start training almost as soon as they can walk), and you're talking about a hunter who's only 20-22 years old.

So why is everyone assuming the training is separate from one another?

In short, because it doesn't work like that. If you learn HTH "Martial arts" In heroes unlimited. It's assumed you learn them as part of your training. Sure you're going to the Dojo a few times a week, a few hours a week and with in a couple of years you can fight and call it HTH Martial Arts. This is the same sort of thing that anyone can learn. I have 5 years of Isshin Ryu, for example. A few years of Kendo and I Fenced competitively in college. No biggie.

Martial arts from N&SS aren't like that. For the most part they take years and years and years to master and that's working at them like a job. 9+ hours a day, every day (( Or at least 5 days a week)) For years. the difference? HTH Martial Arts from Heroes lets you fight. The Martial Arts in N&SS give you lists of moves, sometimes dozens. They give you free weapon preferences, often free physical skills, and often magical powers and such to go along with it, and are ---alot--- more powerful than the "HTH Martial Arts" in normal Heroes. They take dedication and advanced levels of training.

So no.. you really can't take one of the big ones and go "oh yeah I was learning that on the side for a decade while I was also undergoing intense training that propelled me into superhuman status beyond the ken of mortal men..... In this other way (Hunter/vigilante) At the same time.

Nor do you REALLY learn martial arts "As soon as you start to walk" Anyone who's been in a real martial arts class.(( I say real, as opposed to the ones that are basicly exercize classes in gi's)) Knows those kiddy types with the colored belts, are cute... they may know a few kata. But that's not the same thing as knowing the martial art.

I started Isshin Ryu at 15. And I went to tournaments pretty quick out of the gate. I would go up against supposed 15 year old black belts from the Tae Kwon Do school across town and totally trounce them. And I'm not ____THAT GOOD___ I surely wasn't at 15. Now... experiences can vary.. but out side a movie.. I don't care how well trained a 12 or 13 year old is... shy of an honest to goodness sholin monk. I can take out a 12 or 13 year old with one punch and not even pop a sweat. So could you! (( Well the hypothetical you. I'm sure there are some whimpy adults whom couldn't))

To learn and be able to apply a real martial art it takes body and mind. Sure you can learn the kata as a child, but untill you can back it up, some where in your teens, with the power and body control to go with it, it's not alot different from taking dance.

Now does learning the Kata early let you slip into the real stuff earlier? Sure. But the Martial arts from Ninja's and Superspies are SUPER Martial arts. You can't learn that stuff as a toddler. You can't start your training from like 3years old and tack on +10 and go "Yeah at 13 I'm a master of Moo Gi Gong. I put in 10 years at it!!"

Your logic can be applied to any skill that someone learns as part of his/her occ. "Yeah, I trained to be a cop, but I picked up cooking on the side" or "I finally finished my apprenticeship as a fisherman, but while we were on the boat I had a chance to learn how to use a gun".

Sorry, but I'm going to be against you on this topic. As part of training to be a hunter/vigilante, the character learns Hand to Hand Expert. For the cost of 1 Manhunter skill, the character can get to Martial Arts. So he learns MARTIAL ARTS as part of his training - it is integrated into his training, and is not one of those "I'll pick it up on the side" skills. Now, instead of just sticking with HTH MA, the character decides he wants Moo Gi Gong (or another acceptable martial art). Which, according to you and your logic, cannot be an integral part of his training. Why not? Why can't, as part of his manhunter training, he learn a formal martial art at the same time he learns the rest of his hunter skills?

What about if the person training him to be a hunter is an expert in Moo Gi Gong (or another acceptable martial art)? This would be the preferred MA style taught to the prospective hunter, and would an integral part of his training, right?

Think of it like this: You have 2 college students, John and Jane. They both major in computer science, and they both attend the same school. John decides that, for his core courses, he is just going to stick to the traditional route and just be a generalist, only taking the minimum necessary courses to graduate (in this case we'll say 3 programming languages and 2 database courses). Jane, on the other hand, isn't satisfied with the mere norm - she decides she wants to change things up and switch out the database courses and learn something else, like maybe another programming language or even AI programming. This is done as part of her formal training, and isn't something she just picks up on the side. When they both graduate, they both get the same degree in comp sci. But their training is much different from one another over the course of the 4 years, and it took them 4 years to graduate, with them in the same graduating class.

Now take the above example and apply it to the hunter. You've got 2 hunters who have to go through the same basic program. One of them just wants to be normal, while the other one wants some form of real martial arts training. Why can't the guy who wants the formal MA training do the training at the same time the other guy is getting his normal training?

What you're doing is basically penalizing the character on top of them having to drop 1 manhunter skill, HTH MA, and (1 physical or 2 secondary skills) by making them take longer to finish their training when, in reality, they can do it in the same amount of time.

[Nightmask]

What you're doing is basically penalizing the character on top of them having to drop 1 manhunter skill, HTH MA, and (1 physical or 2 secondary skills) by making them take longer to finish their training when, in reality, they can do it in the same amount of time.

I haven't seen anyone yet show where it states in the book that you're paying the cost for HtH: MA AND the cost to get a dedicated form from N&SS or Mystic China. That just doesn't make sense really. Also where you see examples of HU characters with N&SS MA there's nothing to imply you make use of the added ages factor included from N&SS when applied to a HU character. Which is understandable as your average super-hero who is a MA is frequently shown being a high end master while being in his teens or twenties, certainly not in his thirties or older (which is what you'd get from a Tai Chi Master for one). Mystic China doesn't even use the aging factors from N&SS.

[Regularguy]

See what your getting at now, I would say no on combining the classes. They will have to choose either Physical training or Hunter. They can't have both and claim they were not good at one and switched just to get all the physical skills of PT.

No, that's not what I'm getting at.

I'm asking you to consider a hypothetical PT who exercised enough to perform superhuman feats of strength while assembling a huge collection of skills -- possibly a dozen of 'em at the PhD/MD level -- and who also had enough time to learn an HU martial art that includes (a) proficiency in all paired weapons, along with (b) kicks and punches that do more damage than anything up Moo Gi Gong's sleeve.

I'm asking you to then consider a completely separate Hunter/Vigilante who picked up a bunch of skills plus Moo Gi Gong; imagine, if you like, that both characters will be starting off in the same campaign. Which of those two characters do you figure spent more time on his training?

[Severus Snape]

What you're doing is basically penalizing the character on top of them having to drop 1 manhunter skill, HTH MA, and (1 physical or 2 secondary skills) by making them take longer to finish their training when, in reality, they can do it in the same amount of time.

I haven't seen anyone yet show where it states in the book that you're paying the cost for HtH: MA AND the cost to get a dedicated form from N&SS or Mystic China. That just doesn't make sense really. Also where you see examples of HU characters with N&SS MA there's nothing to imply you make use of the added ages factor included from N&SS when applied to a HU character. Which is understandable as your average super-hero who is a MA is frequently shown being a high end master while being in his teens or twenties, certainly not in his thirties or older (which is what you'd get from a Tai Chi Master for one). Mystic China doesn't even use the aging factors from N&SS.

For starters, page 45 of the HU core rulebook states:

9. Only one hand to hand combat skill can be selected. In cases where more than one type is available, the player must select only one and disregard the others.

Now, this is the only canon rule I can find regarding having more than 1 HTH skill. The issue in N&SS is that some characters will have multiple forms (primary and secondary), which directly contradicts this statement. But that's a strict N&SS character, and not an HU character. And HU characters cannot have more than 1 HTH skill, so...

I guess "drop" is the wrong word here. The MA form selected should replace the HTH MA skill.