Vigilante/Hunter from Heroes Unlimted

[Ronin Shinobi]

See what your getting at now, I would say no on combining the classes. They will have to choose either Physical training or Hunter. They can't have both and claim they were not good at one and switched just to get all the physical skills of PT.

No, that's not what I'm getting at.

I'm asking you to consider a hypothetical PT who exercised enough to perform superhuman feats of strength while assembling a huge collection of skills -- possibly a dozen of 'em at the PhD/MD level -- and who also had enough time to learn an HU martial art that includes (a) proficiency in all paired weapons, along with (b) kicks and punches that do more damage than anything up Moo Gi Gong's sleeve.

I'm asking you to then consider a completely separate Hunter/Vigilante who picked up a bunch of skills plus Moo Gi Gong; imagine, if you like, that both characters will be starting off in the same campaign. Which of those two characters do you figure spent more time on his training?

Well first of all allowance if combining PT with hunter would be out, because PT it self required a lot of time and training, even with scenario given that they changed class the character loses all aspect of PT abilities because he's not longer committing to it as they had been, there is truth in the old saying don't use it you lose it. If I would allow that, the character first of all would not still retain all the Physical skill. Would allow only two extra Physical skills and none of the other powers associated with the class like power punch. But I would let them place their PS to 18 starting and 1d4X10 extra in SDC.

Given set up with a PT/Hunter Hybrid. IMHO I would say the one with Moo Gi because the PT character would most likely not be as committed to Physical training as he had been and would only train enough to keep in physical form.

[Regularguy]

Well first of all allowance if combining PT with hunter would be out, because PT it self required a lot of time and training, even with scenario given that they changed class the character loses all aspect of PT abilities because he's not longer committing to it as they had been, there is truth in the old saying don't use it you lose it. If I would allow that, the character first of all would not still retain all the Physical skill. Would allow only two extra Physical skills and none of the other powers associated with the class like power punch. But I would let them place their PS to 18 starting and 1d4X10 extra in SDC. Given set up with a PT/Hunter Hybrid.

No, that's not "first of all". That's not what I'm asking you at all.

I'm asking you about two completely separate guys. One of them is a PT. The other one is a Hunter. There's no "combining" involved. There's no "hybrid". Picture a PT with superhuman strength and a lot of skills and a martial art that grants him paired weapons (all). Picture a Hunter with a bunch of skills and Moo Gi Gong. Which of those two guys do you think spent more time training?

[Nightmask]

What you're doing is basically penalizing the character on top of them having to drop 1 manhunter skill, HTH MA, and (1 physical or 2 secondary skills) by making them take longer to finish their training when, in reality, they can do it in the same amount of time.

I haven't seen anyone yet show where it states in the book that you're paying the cost for HtH: MA AND the cost to get a dedicated form from N&SS or Mystic China. That just doesn't make sense really. Also where you see examples of HU characters with N&SS MA there's nothing to imply you make use of the added ages factor included from N&SS when applied to a HU character. Which is understandable as your average super-hero who is a MA is frequently shown being a high end master while being in his teens or twenties, certainly not in his thirties or older (which is what you'd get from a Tai Chi Master for one). Mystic China doesn't even use the aging factors from N&SS.

For starters, page 45 of the HU core rulebook states:

9. Only one hand to hand combat skill can be selected. In cases where more than one type is available, the player must select only one and disregard the others.

Now, this is the only canon rule I can find regarding having more than 1 HTH skill. The issue in N&SS is that some characters will have multiple forms (primary and secondary), which directly contradicts this statement. But that's a strict N&SS character, and not an HU character. And HU characters cannot have more than 1 HTH skill, so...

I guess "drop" is the wrong word here. The MA form selected should replace the HTH MA skill.

Right, so there's nothing that's stated that contradicts the N&SS rules for HU characters selecting dedicated MA forms, and no where does it state that you have to purchase HtH: MA and then top it off spending even more to replace it with a dedicated form. It only states that a particular power category expends a particular number of physical skills or secondary skills (often 3 physical or 6 secondary), or rarely gives up a class ability or two for the MA. Which would imply that in most cases those non-exclusive forms are interchangeable in training time and cost with the generic HtH forms from a HU perspective.

[Ronin Shinobi]

Well first of all allowance if combining PT with hunter would be out, because PT it self required a lot of time and training, even with scenario given that they changed class the character loses all aspect of PT abilities because he's not longer committing to it as they had been, there is truth in the old saying don't use it you lose it. If I would allow that, the character first of all would not still retain all the Physical skill. Would allow only two extra Physical skills and none of the other powers associated with the class like power punch. But I would let them place their PS to 18 starting and 1d4X10 extra in SDC. Given set up with a PT/Hunter Hybrid.

No, that's not "first of all". That's not what I'm asking you at all.

I'm asking you about two completely separate guys. One of them is a PT. The other one is a Hunter. There's no "combining" involved. There's no "hybrid". Picture a PT with superhuman strength and a lot of skills and a martial art that grants him paired weapons (all). Picture a Hunter with a bunch of skills and Moo Gi Gong. Which of those two guys do you think spent more time training?

Okay Now i see, sorry i was assuming you were talking about hybridizing the classes from the start. Well going back to your first post on the question you realize that PT character is training solely tp put their body to be strong beyond normal means, unlike Hunter who has to hone other areas like hunting and tracking. So given that the time committed is already factored in the character class. they go to work or school. Then after wards train physically for hours on end. Hunter has a lot more on their plate to do. Work/School, then study tracking, espionage work, weapon proficiency and care. marksmanship, not to mention exercising to be physically fit to fight. then martial arts training it self.

[Nightmask]

Well first of all allowance if combining PT with hunter would be out, because PT it self required a lot of time and training, even with scenario given that they changed class the character loses all aspect of PT abilities because he's not longer committing to it as they had been, there is truth in the old saying don't use it you lose it. If I would allow that, the character first of all would not still retain all the Physical skill. Would allow only two extra Physical skills and none of the other powers associated with the class like power punch. But I would let them place their PS to 18 starting and 1d4X10 extra in SDC. Given set up with a PT/Hunter Hybrid.

No, that's not "first of all". That's not what I'm asking you at all.

I'm asking you about two completely separate guys. One of them is a PT. The other one is a Hunter. There's no "combining" involved. There's no "hybrid". Picture a PT with superhuman strength and a lot of skills and a martial art that grants him paired weapons (all). Picture a Hunter with a bunch of skills and Moo Gi Gong. Which of those two guys do you think spent more time training?

Okay Now i see, sorry i was assuming you were talking about hybridizing the classes from the start. Well going back to your first post on the question you realize that PT character is training solely tp put their body to be strong beyond normal means, unlike Hunter who has to hone other areas like hunting and tracking. So given that the time committed is already factored in the character class. they go to work or school. Then after wards train physically for hours on end. Hunter has a lot more on their plate to do. Work/School, then study tracking, espionage work, weapon proficiency and care. marksmanship, not to mention exercising to be physically fit to fight. then martial arts training it self.

Except as he notes the Physical Training character has a lot of skills he's learning too, and depending on education level that training could be doctorate level education which is extremely intensive. That PT Doctorate level medical doctor has a 12 year medical program he's established, while doing intensive physical training to the point of having superhuman strength and endurance (even the version focused on Agility and Speed is superhumanly capable compared to a regular human). No reason that a Hunter/Vigilante should be penalized for swapping out his generic HtH training for a non-exclusive MA from N&SS or Mystic China.

[Ronin Shinobi]

Its still all in all a general skill group so it still fits into the scenario if go to work/school then physically train to their hearts content once the bell ring/punch out. Their are many examples RL wise of people doing that. Where as hunter it self is getting skills selectively due to the intense commitment of applying said skills to hunt humanoid prey they also get other abilities exclusive to their class to reflect their a cut above the season hunters that take usually deer or two every fall/winter.

Its training just in that, that going to require more commitment than looking through a how to book to develop tracking skills. So adding a martial arts that's going to give them more than they would have by just going to Joe's karate world and learning skills and abilities that are not available than whats given in the basic forms for HtH. Its going to take additional commitment to learn.

Over all though were not penalizing the character but doing things as GM to make the character more balanced for the game.

[Regularguy]

Okay Now i see, sorry i was assuming you were talking about hybridizing the classes from the start. Well going back to your first post on the question you realize that PT character is training solely tp put their body to be strong beyond normal means, unlike Hunter who has to hone other areas like hunting and tracking.

And here's where the confusion came in: imagine, if you like, that the PT was learning hunting and tracking skills instead of getting a surgeon's MD and a lawyer's JD and PhD-level skill in Robot Electronics and Robot Mechanics and so on. (I'm not suggesting we hybridize the PT class; I'm saying they get a bunch of skills as written, and can already use those skills to specialize in outdoorsy stuff and espionage stuff and et cetera.)

So given that the time committed is already factored in the character class. they go to work or school. Then after wards train physically for hours on end. Hunter has a lot more on their plate to do. Work/School, then study tracking, espionage work, weapon proficiency and care. marksmanship, not to mention exercising to be physically fit to fight. then martial arts training it self.

And the PT likewise goes in for work/school, tracking, espionage work, weapon proficiency and care, marksmanship, plus exercise to the point of performing superhuman feats of strength, and then martial arts training that lets him do stuff Moo Gi Gong can't, right? How many years did that take him, compared to a Hunter who learns MGG?

[Ronin Shinobi]

Okay Now i see, sorry i was assuming you were talking about hybridizing the classes from the start. Well going back to your first post on the question you realize that PT character is training solely tp put their body to be strong beyond normal means, unlike Hunter who has to hone other areas like hunting and tracking.

And here's where the confusion came in: imagine, if you like, that the PT was learning hunting and tracking skills instead of getting a surgeon's MD and a lawyer's JD and PhD-level skill in Robot Electronics and Robot Mechanics and so on. (I'm not suggesting we hybridize the PT class; I'm saying they get a bunch of skills as written, and can already use those skills to specialize in outdoorsy stuff and espionage stuff and et cetera.)

So given that the time committed is already factored in the character class. they go to work or school. Then after wards train physically for hours on end. Hunter has a lot more on their plate to do. Work/School, then study tracking, espionage work, weapon proficiency and care. marksmanship, not to mention exercising to be physically fit to fight. then martial arts training it self.

And the PT likewise goes in for work/school, tracking, espionage work, weapon proficiency and care, marksmanship, plus exercise to the point of performing superhuman feats of strength, and then martial arts training that lets him do stuff Moo Gi Gong can't, right? How many years did that take him, compared to a Hunter who learns MGG?

Make one for PT and make one with a hunter, just using everything standard. Over all I can bet the hunter is going to be better in the trade than someone who PT and put all the skills to hunting and wilderness. Even if you take the highest scholastic group, +30 may make him better in a few skills but over all hunter is going to be much better at it than PT because of skill exclusive to that class.

Also, again look at what Moo Gi gets compared to than standard martial arts. If time was so equal as your claiming them marital arts would be getting similar marital arts powers as well as similar boost in stats. Its not, because martial arts training given in HU represent only learning how to attack and defend properly. Moo gi going require more time to teach because your gaining all the ancient weapon proficiencies, additional physical training to give you those stat boost for just taking that marital arts as well as techniques. Also, look at physical martial arts powers it details what character might be going through to get the additional bonuses their. If the take Chi Gung, well that now adding spiritual training to focus their chi to make it hard enough to repel blows and even gunshots/lasers. That their is telling us more time and commitment is needed.

[Regularguy]

Make one for PT and make one with a hunter, just using everything standard. Over all I can bet the hunter is going to be better in the trade than someone who PT and put all the skills to hunting and wilderness. Even if you take the highest scholastic group, +30 may make him better in a few skills but over all hunter is going to be much better at it than PT because of skill exclusive to that class.

Right: the PT would be better in a few skills, and the Hunter would be better whenever his exclusive skills come into play. So which took longer to learn: the PT's mental stuff, or the Hunter's? I think I'm with you so far...

Also, again look at what Moo Gi gets compared to than standard martial arts.

No, look at it compared to the PT's martial-arts training -- which starts off with paired weapons (all), and with high-damage kicks and punches, along with all his "physical training".

Also, look at physical martial arts powers it details what character might be going through to get the additional bonuses their. If the take Chi Gung, well that now adding spiritual training to focus their chi to make it hard enough to repel blows and even gunshots/lasers. That their is telling us more time and commitment is needed.

Chi Gung doesn't work on gunshots and lasers; the PT's martial art can do that; MGG, not so much. So which took longer to learn: the PT's physical stuff, or the Hunter's?

[Ronin Shinobi]

Make one for PT and make one with a hunter, just using everything standard. Over all I can bet the hunter is going to be better in the trade than someone who PT and put all the skills to hunting and wilderness. Even if you take the highest scholastic group, +30 may make him better in a few skills but over all hunter is going to be much better at it than PT because of skill exclusive to that class.

Right: the PT would be better in a few skills, and the Hunter would be better whenever his exclusive skills come into play. So which took longer to learn: the PT's mental stuff, or the Hunter's? I think I'm with you so far...

Also, again look at what Moo Gi gets compared to than standard martial arts.

No, look at it compared to the PT's martial-arts training -- which starts off with paired weapons (all), and with high-damage kicks and punches, along with all his "physical training".

Also, look at physical martial arts powers it details what character might be going through to get the additional bonuses their. If the take Chi Gung, well that now adding spiritual training to focus their chi to make it hard enough to repel blows and even gunshots/lasers. That their is telling us more time and commitment is needed.

Chi Gung doesn't work on gunshots and lasers; the PT's martial art can do that; MGG, not so much. So which took longer to learn: the PT's physical stuff, or the Hunter's?

First of all paired weapons all only gives them then ability to use a weapon in the off hand, it doesn't give them the proficiency in every ancient weapon like Moo Gi does. Second, while I maybe wrong about application of Chi Gung(mostly because I'm going on memory and don't have book with me) it still required time to prepare mentally. Time character is going to need to set a side. Third, explain to me why the standard HtH doesn't give access to martial arts power or at least give bonuses in physical stats like ones from N&SS? If time is so irrelevant and all that needed is to get rid of the current HtH for Moo Gi, why isn't HU marital arts not stacking attribute bonuses at least?

For that matter why is the HU book asking for you to dump a physical or a secondary skills to upgrade from basic to expert or from expert to Martial arts? If all that needed is to trade out basic expert by your comparison all I need to do is say I'm traded out the HtH to something better and give a reason like my uncle is a black belt and then change it with out lost of skill. If that's so the case then why is palladium rules stating that even if taken as a secondary skill it requires two or three(again don't have book with me at work) secondary skills to take?. In physical for hand to hand it says same. One for basic, two for expert and three physical skill cost for marital art, why is that?

Reason is because palladium is accounting for time and complexity of learning said combat skill. So why is it that Moo Gi, a more complex marital arts form than standard HU one should be taken out without lost of some kind of skill?

[Pepsi Jedi]

All this talk over how long it takes someone who is a hunter to learn Moo Gi Gong is making my head hurt. At what point are the training times split from one another? I've seen that it takes 18 years to become a hunter, and then 10 to learn Moo Gi Gong. Why is it assumed that the training for each is separate from one another? If the character has to drop skills in order to pick up the martial art - skills that are, according to the book, part of his training to become a hunter - then why can't it be assumed that learning the martial art was part of his hunter training?

Think about it this way: You get all those skills for being a hunter, and you get them because that's what you were trained in for those 18 years. Ok, so instead of taking all those manhunter skills, you drop 1 to get HTHMA, then drop HTHMA and 2 secondary skills to pick up Moo Gi Gong AS PART OF YOUR HUNTER TRAINING. So instead of having to spend 28 freaking years on training, you still only train for 18. You start early enough (plenty of martial artists start training almost as soon as they can walk), and you're talking about a hunter who's only 20-22 years old.

So why is everyone assuming the training is separate from one another?

In short, because it doesn't work like that. If you learn HTH "Martial arts" In heroes unlimited. It's assumed you learn them as part of your training. Sure you're going to the Dojo a few times a week, a few hours a week and with in a couple of years you can fight and call it HTH Martial Arts. This is the same sort of thing that anyone can learn. I have 5 years of Isshin Ryu, for example. A few years of Kendo and I Fenced competitively in college. No biggie.

Martial arts from N&SS aren't like that. For the most part they take years and years and years to master and that's working at them like a job. 9+ hours a day, every day (( Or at least 5 days a week)) For years. the difference? HTH Martial Arts from Heroes lets you fight. The Martial Arts in N&SS give you lists of moves, sometimes dozens. They give you free weapon preferences, often free physical skills, and often magical powers and such to go along with it, and are ---alot--- more powerful than the "HTH Martial Arts" in normal Heroes. They take dedication and advanced levels of training.

So no.. you really can't take one of the big ones and go "oh yeah I was learning that on the side for a decade while I was also undergoing intense training that propelled me into superhuman status beyond the ken of mortal men..... In this other way (Hunter/vigilante) At the same time.

Nor do you REALLY learn martial arts "As soon as you start to walk" Anyone who's been in a real martial arts class.(( I say real, as opposed to the ones that are basicly exercize classes in gi's)) Knows those kiddy types with the colored belts, are cute... they may know a few kata. But that's not the same thing as knowing the martial art.

I started Isshin Ryu at 15. And I went to tournaments pretty quick out of the gate. I would go up against supposed 15 year old black belts from the Tae Kwon Do school across town and totally trounce them. And I'm not ____THAT GOOD___ I surely wasn't at 15. Now... experiences can vary.. but out side a movie.. I don't care how well trained a 12 or 13 year old is... shy of an honest to goodness sholin monk. I can take out a 12 or 13 year old with one punch and not even pop a sweat. So could you! (( Well the hypothetical you. I'm sure there are some whimpy adults whom couldn't))

To learn and be able to apply a real martial art it takes body and mind. Sure you can learn the kata as a child, but untill you can back it up, some where in your teens, with the power and body control to go with it, it's not alot different from taking dance.

Now does learning the Kata early let you slip into the real stuff earlier? Sure. But the Martial arts from Ninja's and Superspies are SUPER Martial arts. You can't learn that stuff as a toddler. You can't start your training from like 3years old and tack on +10 and go "Yeah at 13 I'm a master of Moo Gi Gong. I put in 10 years at it!!"

Your logic can be applied to any skill that someone learns as part of his/her occ. "Yeah, I trained to be a cop, but I picked up cooking on the side" or "I finally finished my apprenticeship as a fisherman, but while we were on the boat I had a chance to learn how to use a gun".

Sorry, but I'm going to be against you on this topic. As part of training to be a hunter/vigilante, the character learns Hand to Hand Expert. For the cost of 1 Manhunter skill, the character can get to Martial Arts.

But that's normal Joe blow, I went to the dojo a few times a week, martial arts out of the HU book. It's not the same thing as one of the big ones from N&SS.

So he learns MARTIAL ARTS as part of his training - it is integrated into his training, and is not one of those "I'll pick it up on the side" skills. Now, instead of just sticking with HTH MA, the character decides he wants Moo Gi Gong (or another acceptable martial art). Which, according to you and your logic, cannot be an integral part of his training. Why not? Why can't, as part of his manhunter training, he learn a formal martial art at the same time he learns the rest of his hunter skills?

Because it's the next step up. The martial arts out of the N&SS books are basicly super catagories of their own. You're acheiving dozens of moves, physical skills. Mystical skills, dozens of weapon preferences.

To be 100% honest, the martial art in question, is stronger than the stuff you get from being a hunter. It takes longer to train in the martial art, than it does to train in the hunter super category. You're basically dual classing. If you want the Mmoo Gi Gong. Take a class out of the N&SS book annd take it. Don't combine the classes together. If you are, then suck it up. The stuff you're combining isn't say... a mutant that learned ninjitsu. It's a "Normal human that's completed such high levels of training that he acheives super human status" That super high training takes time. The Martial arts out of N&SS are huge. They have 'normal' ones in there, the one you're choosing is that nextpower catagory up.

It's like there's extraordinary PS, Superhuman PS, and Supernatural PS. The martial arts are much the same way. HTH Basic and Expert.... HTH Martial arts or Assassin.... and.. HTH From N&SS.

What about if the person training him to be a hunter is an expert in Moo Gi Gong (or another acceptable martial art)? This would be the preferred MA style taught to the prospective hunter, and would an integral part of his training, right?

And he could be an alien from a magic rich planet and give him a magical weapon while exposing him to radiation that mutates him and lets him shoot eye lasers.

Yes you 'can', but you're smooshing it together to get stuff from multiple power categories.

Think of it like this: You have 2 college students, John and Jane. They both major in computer science, and they both attend the same school. John decides that, for his core courses, he is just going to stick to the traditional route and just be a generalist, only taking the minimum necessary courses to graduate (in this case we'll say 3 programming languages and 2 database courses). Jane, on the other hand, isn't satisfied with the mere norm - she decides she wants to change things up and switch out the database courses and learn something else, like maybe another programming language or even AI programming. This is done as part of her formal training, and isn't something she just picks up on the side. When they both graduate, they both get the same degree in comp sci. But their training is much different from one another over the course of the 4 years, and it took them 4 years to graduate, with them in the same graduating class.

but your example doesn't work like that. In reality, John Graduates in 4 years with a Bachlors of Science in Computer science. Jane on the other hand gets her BS, her Masters and then a Doctorate in Computer science with a specialty in AI

And... she goes to school twice as long. Because that extra training takes extra time. That extra stuff that puts her over the common CompSci guy with a 4 year degree, takes the extra level of work and dedication. If not, then all people would get the special stuff. And it's no longer special.

Now take the above example and apply it to the hunter. You've got 2 hunters who have to go through the same basic program. One of them just wants to be normal, while the other one wants some form of real martial arts training. Why can't the guy who wants the formal MA training do the training at the same time the other guy is getting his normal training?

Same thing above. If he wants to be normal it takes normal time. if he wants a martial art that takes 10 years to master with magical abilities and extra stuff. He puts in the extra time (( like getting your PHD))

Heck man. You helped me articulate my point. thank you.

What you're doing is basically penalizing the character on top of them having to drop 1 manhunter skill, HTH MA, and (1 physical or 2 secondary skills) by making them take longer to finish their training when, in reality, they can do it in the same amount of time.

Ok, for one, stop acting like dropping HTH MA is some how a penalty. It's not like you'd ever use it ifyou didn't drop it, so that's moot. No ones going to go "Oh i drop into my weaker style with less bonus' to fight this next guy" lol that's silly.

And what you're doing is... Charging the guy for the extra super power level training he wants. If the MA takes 10 years to learn, and you want all the super powers, bonus and all the physical skills along with all the weapon preferences, that takes time. If your life is dedicated to learning the hunting arts, you're not also putting in 9 hours a day learning a super powered mystical martial art.

[Regularguy]

First of all paired weapons all only gives them then ability to use a weapon in the off hand, it doesn't give them the proficiency in every ancient weapon like Moo Gi does. Second, while I maybe wrong about application of Chi Gung(mostly because I'm going on memory and don't have book with me)

Do you at least have the HU book with you? Because I'm talking about the PT's martial art of choice, which isn't like the standard HtH you keep going on about.

Reason is because palladium is accounting for time and complexity of learning said combat skill. So why is it that Moo Gi, a more complex marital arts form than standard HU one should be taken out without lost of some kind of skill?

I'm fine for requiring the swap N&SS mandates for Hunters looking to pick up Moo Gi Gong.

[csyphrett]

You guys are overanalyzing this. Time factor is random roll of the dice. It doesn't matter. Explanations for this is not what the OP asked.

If the gm doesn't have N&SS, then the combination shouldn't be allowed. That cuts down on bookchecking.

roll up the hunter as normal. pick skills as normal. Character automatically gets expert. delete the skills he is giving up for the martial art. Plug in moo gi gong.

Things to remember. He can only use hand to hand expert or moo gi gong. They have seperate bonuses and attacks. He only gets 2 with moo gi gong at first level. He gets four with expert, 5 if he has boxing.

It looks like he doesnt get another attack with moo gi gong at all so he is stuck with two attacks a melee every time he uses it in action.

Nobody cares about realism or time constraints.
CES

[Regularguy]

To be 100% honest, the martial art in question, is stronger than the stuff you get from being a hunter. It takes longer to train in the martial art, than it does to train in the hunter super category. You're basically dual classing. If you want the Mmoo Gi Gong. Take a class out of the N&SS book annd take it. Don't combine the classes together. If you are, then suck it up. The stuff you're combining isn't say... a mutant that learned ninjitsu. It's a "Normal human that's completed such high levels of training that he acheives super human status" That super high training takes time.

Interestingly, the conversions in N&SS are based on seeing things the other way around: Hunters can get Moo Gi Gong by trading away fewer skills than a Mutant or a Psionicist or an Experiment (all of whom can do it, but it costs 'em more). HU took it a step further, saying that Hunters can get Moo Gi Gong as per the N&SS conversion rules but Mutants and Psionicists and Experiments can't.

The idea being that a normal human who excels at training is, apparently, better at learning stuff like this.

[Ronin Shinobi]

First of all paired weapons all only gives them then ability to use a weapon in the off hand, it doesn't give them the proficiency in every ancient weapon like Moo Gi does. Second, while I maybe wrong about application of Chi Gung(mostly because I'm going on memory and don't have book with me)

Do you at least have the HU book with you? Because I'm talking about the PT's martial art of choice, which isn't like the standard HtH you keep going on about.

Reason is because palladium is accounting for time and complexity of learning said combat skill. So why is it that Moo Gi, a more complex marital arts form than standard HU one should be taken out without lost of some kind of skill?

I'm fine for requiring the swap N&SS mandates for Hunters looking to pick up Moo Gi Gong.

No I don't but if memory serves me right PT still need pick up a ancient weapon proficiencies which is given but is separate from paired. If it was included in paired weapons then it would have been stated and wouldn't even bother saying that a PT character can choose 3 or 4 additional ancient weapon proficiencies.

As for you being fine with them swapping out the martial arts without additional cost then that's alright, it's your choice as a GM to make. TBH as a player I would be ecstatic. But as GM myself I would feel its giving them too much to an already skilled stacked character and feel it necessary to remove a few skill choices to even it out. That's my choice to make in my game.

[csyphrett]

Like I said a hunter with Moo gi gong only has two attacks a melee period. I am fine with that.
CES

[Nightmask]

To be 100% honest, the martial art in question, is stronger than the stuff you get from being a hunter. It takes longer to train in the martial art, than it does to train in the hunter super category. You're basically dual classing. If you want the Mmoo Gi Gong. Take a class out of the N&SS book annd take it. Don't combine the classes together. If you are, then suck it up. The stuff you're combining isn't say... a mutant that learned ninjitsu. It's a "Normal human that's completed such high levels of training that he acheives super human status" That super high training takes time.

Interestingly, the conversions in N&SS are based on seeing things the other way around: Hunters can get Moo Gi Gong by trading away fewer skills than a Mutant or a Psionicist or an Experiment (all of whom can do it, but it costs 'em more). HU took it a step further, saying that Hunters can get Moo Gi Gong as per the N&SS conversion rules but Mutants and Psionicists and Experiments can't.

The idea being that a normal human who excels at training is, apparently, better at learning stuff like this.

I think it's more the idea that the physical training characters like the PT and Hunter/Vigilante come with a minimum level of combat training, characters like Mutants and Psionicists and Experiments don't, they have to pay for everything including just HtH: Basic. Someone whose power category already assumes a basic minimum HtH as part of the package naturally has less trouble trading it in for something else than someone who starts with nothing at all to trade in.

[AlanGunhouse]

To be 100% honest, the martial art in question, is stronger than the stuff you get from being a hunter. It takes longer to train in the martial art, than it does to train in the hunter super category. You're basically dual classing. If you want the Mmoo Gi Gong. Take a class out of the N&SS book annd take it. Don't combine the classes together. If you are, then suck it up. The stuff you're combining isn't say... a mutant that learned ninjitsu. It's a "Normal human that's completed such high levels of training that he acheives super human status" That super high training takes time.

Interestingly, the conversions in N&SS are based on seeing things the other way around: Hunters can get Moo Gi Gong by trading away fewer skills than a Mutant or a Psionicist or an Experiment (all of whom can do it, but it costs 'em more). HU took it a step further, saying that Hunters can get Moo Gi Gong as per the N&SS conversion rules but Mutants and Psionicists and Experiments can't.

The idea being that a normal human who excels at training is, apparently, better at learning stuff like this.

Probably right, Nightmask.
I think it's more the idea that the physical training characters like the PT and Hunter/Vigilante come with a minimum level of combat training, characters like Mutants and Psionicists and Experiments don't, they have to pay for everything including just HtH: Basic. Someone whose power category already assumes a basic minimum HtH as part of the package naturally has less trouble trading it in for something else than someone who starts with nothing at all to trade in.

[Genhuman]

Personally, this is how I would "rule it" if I were the GM. I would simply ask him, why does he have MGG? What is your concept and why would this martial art be a part of it. Depending upon how the player answered, I would rule, yay or nay.

If its clear to me that the player only wants it to "twink" their PC some how, I would say, I don't see it, nope.

If they come at me with an explanation of how they view their PC and how this is a part of em, I would say, OK by me. Keep in mind, I don't want an explanation of HOW this character aquired it, etc. I want to know WHY it is a part of the character.

To put it another way, if the MA helps with ROLEplaying, I am all for it. If all it is for is ROLLplaying, I say no.

There is also the other hard and fast rule of GMing that may apply here. If you don't feel comfortable with it, then don't allow it. You are the GM.

(That is why it is an OPTIONAL rul for people to be able to choose N&SS MA for their PCs. The GM gets to decide which options to include)

[AlanGunhouse]

Absolutely true Genhuman: if it improved the CHARACTER is should be allowed, if it simply improves the stats forget it.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I'm in full agreement with Genhuman as well. That's how I'd do it.

[gaby]

Well I think they,need more special skills that are similar to minor powers( not flashy ones) but get it through training like Hold Breath or motion detection,resist sleep,resist hunger,resist pain.
Small things that is still within range of normal humans.

Having a character be two the Special Training types can also wokr.

[csyphrett]

It's book legal, its allowable. If the player wants to trade most of his attacks for a special ability I have no problem with it.
CES

[Pepsi Jedi]

"Book Legal" doesn't mean smart. I nfact twinks make a point of doing things technically 'book legal' to twink out absurd characters. When they're 13 it's one thing. When they're adults it's another. One's a 13 year old being a 13 year old. The other is a twinkish jerk that's trying to break the game to have the 'bestest character ever!!'. They're annoying and I refuse to play with um.

[csyphrett]

"Book Legal" doesn't mean smart. I nfact twinks make a point of doing things technically 'book legal' to twink out absurd characters. When they're 13 it's one thing. When they're adults it's another. One's a 13 year old being a 13 year old. The other is a twinkish jerk that's trying to break the game to have the 'bestest character ever!!'. They're annoying and I refuse to play with um.

That's fine. The player is only hurting himself in this case. As I have said several times, he is trading 5 attacks/ actions per melee fortwo. And he doesnt get any more with experience. The special dodges cant be used with attacks. There's some other things too.
CES

[Nightmask]

I am still curious how MGG+HV=Absurd.

It doesn't. You can easily make a N&SS OCC with every weapon proficiency in the game and nearly every piloting skill plus miscellaneous skills and MA, far outmatching the H/V in skills and yet he's hardly going to be treated as absurd in a HU game given the kinds of threats running around in a super-hero game.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I am still curious how MGG+HV=Absurd.

It doesn't. You can easily make a N&SS OCC with every weapon proficiency in the game and nearly every piloting skill plus miscellaneous skills and MA, far outmatching the H/V in skills and yet he's hardly going to be treated as absurd in a HU game given the kinds of threats running around in a super-hero game.

Thank you Nightmask for perfectly illustrating my previous post.

[Nightmask]

I am still curious how MGG+HV=Absurd.

It doesn't. You can easily make a N&SS OCC with every weapon proficiency in the game and nearly every piloting skill plus miscellaneous skills and MA, far outmatching the H/V in skills and yet he's hardly going to be treated as absurd in a HU game given the kinds of threats running around in a super-hero game.

Thank you Nightmask for perfectly illustrating my previous post.

Not really. N&SS is a skill-heavy setting, most of the OCC have 50+ skills if not in the 70+ range since Super-spies frequently seem to know just about everything particularly when it comes to weapons and piloting things. One doesn't have to take Moo Gi Gong to know how to use every weapon in the book, in fact an Academy Officer almost can't select skill programs that won't end up with him knowing every weapon there is. It's hardly reasonable to insist that it's so over-powered for a Hunter/Vigilante knowing how to use every ancient weapon when there are many examples to show where one's practically expected to know every weapon. Plus as has been noted you're losing attacks to select Moo Gi Gong in Heroes Unlimited, a hefty penalty to pay to know all those ancient weapons.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Exactly, I'm still not seeing how this is so ridiculously twinked.

Again, and not trying to be funny, but from what I've seen of you, Max, and Nightmask, I'm not at all surprised. You both seem to be very much alike and the type that would sit with a book for a week, crunching numbers to end up with the absolute maximum skill/power/ooc/martial art/weapons/ect/ect/ect list to get the absolute maximum damage in every situation and blink innocently when your group yells at you and go 'What???!!! Book sayz it works like that! SEE!"

Even though the characters made would be absurd if you looked at them as anything resembling a real person, and other than 'Killin' peeps" they've no motivation or character development what so ever. They're just a stack of the absolute maximum skills/powers/oocs/martial arts/ weapons/whatever, that you can TECHNICALLY put together.

"Sure, my char who's dedicated his life to tracking and hunting and lived in the wild for years honing his skills to that effect, also paused to go to korea and spend a full decade, not hunting or anything that he dedicated his life to previously... to pick up a rare and obscure martial art, that... gives him deadly proficiency with anything in the world, in a melee situation. Then once done with that he's come back to be a super hero! Oh and he started training at 3 years old so when you add it all up. he's just in his 20s! The book says I can do it! So I did it"

[Nightmask]

Exactly, I'm still not seeing how this is so ridiculously twinked.

Again, and not trying to be funny, but from what I've seen of you, Max, and Nightmask, I'm not at all surprised. You both seem to be very much alike and the type that would sit with a book for a week, crunching numbers to end up with the absolute maximum skill/power/ooc/martial art/weapons/ect/ect/ect list to get the absolute maximum damage in every situation and blink innocently when your group yells at you and go 'What???!!! Book sayz it works like that! SEE!"

Talk about not having a clue what you're talking about, at all. I have a character concept and work around that, last thing I'm interested in is maxing anything out unless it goes along with the character concept. Can't even find the words to really express just how utterly wrong you are.

Even though the characters made would be absurd if you looked at them as anything resembling a real person, and other than 'Killin' peeps" they've no motivation or character development what so ever. They're just a stack of the absolute maximum skills/powers/oocs/martial arts/ weapons/whatever, that you can TECHNICALLY put together.

Given you've never seen any characters I've created you clearly have no idea what you're talking about, just tossing out wildly insulting things without merit just to confuse and distract because you've nothing that really backs up your 'oh no a Hunter/Vigilante with Moo Gi Gong is twinkish just because I think he gets too many Weapon Proficiencies because of it!' claim. I provided examples of characters PALLADIUM clearly intended to have access to all Weapon Proficiencies if the player wanted it, I certainly didn't write the book whereby nearly all the Military Skill Programs in N&SS provides a half-dozen or more Weapon Proficiencies so that anyone with access to those programs could acquire a lot of WP quick and easy.

"Sure, my char who's dedicated his life to tracking and hunting and lived in the wild for years honing his skills to that effect, also paused to go to korea and spend a full decade, not hunting or anything that he dedicated his life to previously... to pick up a rare and obscure martial art, that... gives him deadly proficiency with anything in the world, in a melee situation. Then once done with that he's come back to be a super hero! Oh and he started training at 3 years old so when you add it all up. he's just in his 20s! The book says I can do it! So I did it"

I see you aren't creative enough to think that just maybe the character is KOREAN, and spent his time learning to be a hunter there while his master taught him the use of all ancient weapons feeling he should be able to hunt and kill with anything because you never know when something might go wrong and the weapon you currently have fails you. So his master trained him to be able to use anything as a weapon so he'd never be truly helpless in a situation. Seriously, where do you think it says in the book that a PC must get all of its training/education in the US? Or that none of those masters could have possibly ended up in the US?

[Pepsi Jedi]

Sure guys. You can get offended all you want and claim I'm way off. Anyone reading your other posts will clearly see that I'm not though. Many 'You can do __ because the book doesn't disallow it" and "I don't see anything twinky at all about combining classes and smooshing in a life long firearms hunter in with someone that can use every melee weapon in the world (( and ones that aren't weapons)) in an obscure martial art that you have to travel to Korea to learn, and is usually only thought as a companion martial art to another one. One that takes a decade to learn. There's nothing twinky about that! Because technically by the book you can do it!

You can be all offended if you want, but both of you have shown over numerous posts over the past months the type of player you are. *shrugs*

And for the record. "Oh you don't have any imagination if that's all you can come up with!!" things..... that was the point guys. I was implying you didn't.... that was my impersonation of someone trying to justify it, using stuff from above in the thread. lol Not my justifications. I was showing how silly it was when you try and do that stuff.

I wouldn't make that sort of twinky crap now. When I was 12 to 14 and just starting out? Sure. I played a char with Moo once. But.. I was some where between 12 and 14 or so. When you're a young teenager it's great. If you base your char around the martial art that takes you a decade to learn. Fine. If you're using it as one part of your ultimate combo class char. to be deadly with rifles, and melee weapons and the killer paper clip... Not so much. So when I was a kid, I might have thought that was cool.

Then I grew up.

But hey. Play how ever you want fella's. I some how doubt we'd sit down to a game with each other anyway.

[Nightmask]

Sure guys. You can get offended all you want and claim I'm way off. Anyone reading your other posts will clearly see that I'm not though. Many 'You can do __ because the book doesn't disallow it" and "I don't see anything twinky at all about combining classes and smooshing in a life long firearms hunter in with someone that can use every melee weapon in the world (( and ones that aren't weapons)) in an obscure martial art that you have to travel to Korea to learn, and is usually only thought as a companion martial art to another one. One that takes a decade to learn. There's nothing twinky about that! Because technically by the book you can do it!

You can be all offended if you want, but both of you have shown over numerous posts over the past months the type of player you are. *shrugs*

I guess I should point out you don't speak for anyone but yourself on these forums, and give yourself a laughable sense of entitlement to try and claim how 'anyone else reading your posts thinks the same way I do' to try and bolster your totally off-base claims. You don't even have the sense be able to tell the difference between a class and a MA insisting that you're combining classes by having a Hunter/Vigilante take as an ALTERNATIVE combat training Moo Gi Gong instead of the standard MA of the class. If you bothered to actually look at what classes in N&SS have Moo Gi Gong available to them you'd also see that many have considerably more skills to go with them than the Hunter/Vigilante does so trying to make it out as if the Hunter/Vigilante having that MA is 'twinkish' is just absurd, and while Moo Gi Gong is a companion MA to Hwang Do Karate it's clearly capable of standing on its own and says so in the book.

When it comes down to the type of player, based on your posts I doubt you'd find many interested in seeing you at the same table as them. You don't come off as one who's 'you play your character and I'll play mine' instead it's all 'hey your character isn't playing how I think you should play it and has things I don't think it should have that's annoying me!'. Doesn't sound like you play well with others at all.

And for the record. "Oh you don't have any imagination if that's all you can come up with!!" things..... that was the point guys. I was implying you didn't.... that was my impersonation of someone trying to justify it, using stuff from above in the thread. lol Not my justifications. I was showing how silly it was when you try and do that stuff.

I wouldn't make that sort of twinky crap now. When I was 12 to 14 and just starting out? Sure. I played a char with Moo once. But.. I was some where between 12 and 14 or so. When you're a young teenager it's great. If you base your char around the martial art that takes you a decade to learn. Fine. If you're using it as one part of your ultimate combo class char. to be deadly with rifles, and melee weapons and the killer paper clip... Not so much. So when I was a kid, I might have thought that was cool.

Then I grew up.

But hey. Play how ever you want fella's. I some how doubt we'd sit down to a game with each other anyway.

Go look up the definition of what a twink is, so you can actually use it where it applies. As is you've been tossing it around without any foundation to it just to use it as an inflammatory term. Plus given you've argued how 'worthless' a PC is if it has a single skill that isn't completely focused on combat and dealing with opponents it's quite contrary to be in this thread insisting on how it's just too much for someone to be a Hunter/Vigilante with Moo Gi Gong which improves his combat effectiveness. Seems like you just comment to argue rather than out of anything consistent given how you contradict yourself and focus only on ROLL-playing over ROLE-playing.

Must agree it's a good thing we'd never be in a game, having someone insisting my character has to have every skill based on what suits HIM rather than myself and treating my PC as if it were some accessory meant to serve his character would have me killing his character off in friendly fire REALLY fast so I could get to actually role-playing and enjoying the game.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Sure guys. You can get offended all you want and claim I'm way off. Anyone reading your other posts will clearly see that I'm not though. Many 'You can do __ because the book doesn't disallow it" and "I don't see anything twinky at all about combining classes and smooshing in a life long firearms hunter in with someone that can use every melee weapon in the world (( and ones that aren't weapons)) in an obscure martial art that you have to travel to Korea to learn, and is usually only thought as a companion martial art to another one. One that takes a decade to learn. There's nothing twinky about that! Because technically by the book you can do it!

You can be all offended if you want, but both of you have shown over numerous posts over the past months the type of player you are. *shrugs*

I guess I should point out you don't speak for anyone but yourself on these forums, and give yourself a laughable sense of entitlement to try and claim how 'anyone else reading your posts thinks the same way I do' to try and bolster your totally off-base claims.

Keep telling yourself they're off-base.

You don't even have the sense be able to tell the difference between a class and a MA insisting that you're combining classes by having a Hunter/Vigilante take as an ALTERNATIVE combat training Moo Gi Gong instead of the standard MA of the class. If you bothered to actually look at what classes in N&SS have Moo Gi Gong available to them you'd also see that many have considerably more skills to go with them than the Hunter/Vigilante does

Yes, but those are classes from Ninja's and Superspies. Not from HU, and you're acting like it's a forgone conclusion, it's not, it's an optional ruling, that your GM may or may not allow.

so trying to make it out as if the Hunter/Vigilante having that MA is 'twinkish' is just absurd, and while Moo Gi Gong is a companion MA to Hwang Do Karate it's clearly capable of standing on its own and says so in the book.

Doing it the way you're advocating and explaining, is. You're only grabbing it for the weapon preferences and "anything as a weapon" Reasoning. Nothing more.

When it comes down to the type of player, based on your posts I doubt you'd find many interested in seeing you at the same table as them. You don't come off as one who's 'you play your character and I'll play mine' instead it's all 'hey your character isn't playing how I think you should play it and has things I don't think it should have that's annoying me!'. Doesn't sound like you play well with others at all.

I do, but like most (I'm guessing) I play with others that see the rules like I do for the most part. And I generally don't play with twinks, or children. (( Any longer. I did when I was a child)). The people I play with would probably laugh you from the table. Conversely I probably wouldn't fit in your games if all your friends make char's and do stuff your way. But that's ok. I wouldn't want to.

And for the record. "Oh you don't have any imagination if that's all you can come up with!!" things..... that was the point guys. I was implying you didn't.... that was my impersonation of someone trying to justify it, using stuff from above in the thread. lol Not my justifications. I was showing how silly it was when you try and do that stuff.

I wouldn't make that sort of twinky crap now. When I was 12 to 14 and just starting out? Sure. I played a char with Moo once. But.. I was some where between 12 and 14 or so. When you're a young teenager it's great. If you base your char around the martial art that takes you a decade to learn. Fine. If you're using it as one part of your ultimate combo class char. to be deadly with rifles, and melee weapons and the killer paper clip... Not so much. So when I was a kid, I might have thought that was cool.

Then I grew up.

But hey. Play how ever you want fella's. I some how doubt we'd sit down to a game with each other anyway.

Go look up the definition of what a twink is, so you can actually use it where it applies.

I've asked before, so I'll ask again. How do you define twink, as it pertains to role playing? Lay it out for me. We may have different understandings of the word.

As is you've been tossing it around without any foundation to it just to use it as an inflammatory term.

I know my foundation but I'm curious as to your own.

Plus given you've argued how 'worthless' a PC is if it has a single skill that isn't completely focused on combat

No.I didn't say they were worthless. Nothing of the sort. I pointed out in another thread, that the way the hero education and skill list is in HU that the GAME doesn't promote alot of non "Heroic" skills to be taken. You don't get as many skills in HU, and most playing super heroes gear their skill selections that way. I routinly have skills on my sheet that don't give me bonous' and such. Check the other threads. The other day I pointed out I had a psistalker that had 'Breed and train dogs', as it helped to round out my character.

and dealing with opponents it's quite contrary to be in this thread insisting on how it's just too much for someone to be a Hunter/Vigilante with Moo Gi Gong which improves his combat effectiveness. Seems like you just comment to argue rather than out of anything consistent given how you contradict yourself and focus only on ROLL-playing over ROLE-playing.

Not at all. lol I just don't see you guys as the second types. Might you surprise me if we actually sat down and played? Sure. But it'd be a surprise. Your posts have shown me something different.

Must agree it's a good thing we'd never be in a game, having someone insisting my character has to have every skill based on what suits HIM rather than myself and treating my PC as if it were some accessory meant to serve his character

Wow. Just making up things again are we nightmask? Did I ever say anything remotely like that? Can you show me where?

would have me killing his character off in friendly fire REALLY fast so I could get to actually role-playing and enjoying the game.

Killing off other char's in friendly fire. *nods* Yep. You'd be AWESOME to play with.

[Severus Snape]

Your logic can be applied to any skill that someone learns as part of his/her occ. "Yeah, I trained to be a cop, but I picked up cooking on the side" or "I finally finished my apprenticeship as a fisherman, but while we were on the boat I had a chance to learn how to use a gun".

Sorry, but I'm going to be against you on this topic. As part of training to be a hunter/vigilante, the character learns Hand to Hand Expert. For the cost of 1 Manhunter skill, the character can get to Martial Arts.

But that's normal Joe blow, I went to the dojo a few times a week, martial arts out of the HU book. It's not the same thing as one of the big ones from N&SS.

But you’re missing the fact here that you’re replacing HTH MA with Moo Gi Gong (or another MA from N&SS). You are training in that art in replacement of HTH MA for your hunter training. I fail to see where hunter training is mutually exclusive from MA training when training to be a hunter includes hand to hand combat training. Unless you think Martial Arts is not considered to be a hand to hand combat form?

So he learns MARTIAL ARTS as part of his training - it is integrated into his training, and is not one of those "I'll pick it up on the side" skills. Now, instead of just sticking with HTH MA, the character decides he wants Moo Gi Gong (or another acceptable martial art). Which, according to you and your logic, cannot be an integral part of his training. Why not? Why can't, as part of his manhunter training, he learn a formal martial art at the same time he learns the rest of his hunter skills?

Because it's the next step up. The martial arts out of the N&SS books are basicly super catagories of their own. You're acheiving dozens of moves, physical skills. Mystical skills, dozens of weapon preferences.

To be 100% honest, the martial art in question, is stronger than the stuff you get from being a hunter. It takes longer to train in the martial art, than it does to train in the hunter super category. You're basically dual classing. If you want the Mmoo Gi Gong. Take a class out of the N&SS book annd take it. Don't combine the classes together. If you are, then suck it up. The stuff you're combining isn't say... a mutant that learned ninjitsu. It's a "Normal human that's completed such high levels of training that he acheives super human status" That super high training takes time. The Martial arts out of N&SS are huge. They have 'normal' ones in there, the one you're choosing is that nextpower catagory up.

It's like there's extraordinary PS, Superhuman PS, and Supernatural PS. The martial arts are much the same way. HTH Basic and Expert.... HTH Martial arts or Assassin.... and.. HTH From N&SS.

Your logic is not valid. You cannot train to have Superhuman or Supernatural PS as these are powers. You can train in a specific martial art. And again, you are making the assumption that hunter training and martial arts training are mutually exclusive of one another.

What about if the person training him to be a hunter is an expert in Moo Gi Gong (or another acceptable martial art)? This would be the preferred MA style taught to the prospective hunter, and would an integral part of his training, right?

And he could be an alien from a magic rich planet and give him a magical weapon while exposing him to radiation that mutates him and lets him shoot eye lasers.

Yes you 'can', but you're smooshing it together to get stuff from multiple power categories.

How is it smooshing it together when the book gives the rules for taking a martial art from N&SS?

Think of it like this: You have 2 college students, John and Jane. They both major in computer science, and they both attend the same school. John decides that, for his core courses, he is just going to stick to the traditional route and just be a generalist, only taking the minimum necessary courses to graduate (in this case we'll say 3 programming languages and 2 database courses). Jane, on the other hand, isn't satisfied with the mere norm - she decides she wants to change things up and switch out the database courses and learn something else, like maybe another programming language or even AI programming. This is done as part of her formal training, and isn't something she just picks up on the side. When they both graduate, they both get the same degree in comp sci. But their training is much different from one another over the course of the 4 years, and it took them 4 years to graduate, with them in the same graduating class.

but your example doesn't work like that. In reality, John Graduates in 4 years with a Bachlors of Science in Computer science. Jane on the other hand gets her BS, her Masters and then a Doctorate in Computer science with a specialty in AI

And... she goes to school twice as long. Because that extra training takes extra time. That extra stuff that puts her over the common CompSci guy with a 4 year degree, takes the extra level of work and dedication. If not, then all people would get the special stuff. And it's no longer special.

I completely disagree with you here. As part of a 4 year BS at Lake Superior State in Michigan, you can select AI Programming as an elective and graduate in the same amount of time as someone who does not take that elective. You are learning it at the same time as someone who is taking something else. If you don’t believe me, look up any comp sci degree program.

Now take the above example and apply it to the hunter. You've got 2 hunters who have to go through the same basic program. One of them just wants to be normal, while the other one wants some form of real martial arts training. Why can't the guy who wants the formal MA training do the training at the same time the other guy is getting his normal training?

Same thing above. If he wants to be normal it takes normal time. if he wants a martial art that takes 10 years to master with magical abilities and extra stuff. He puts in the extra time (( like getting your PHD))

Heck man. You helped me articulate my point. thank you.

No, I didn’t. Your twisted logic is flawed. You are under the assumption that you cannot train in a specific martial art as part of your hunter training. At what point was it stated that being a hunter and training in a specific form are mutually exclusive from one another?

Think of it this way: You study algebra and Spanish at the same time in high school. Do you have to take more time to learn them as someone else who takes algebra and home ec? No – it takes you the same amount of time (a semester) as someone else. And don’t give me some bs “well, to become fluent” crap because you can study anything you want for as long as you want to become better and we aren’t talking about going beyond the required learning course to become better, but to become initially proficient.

What you're doing is basically penalizing the character on top of them having to drop 1 manhunter skill, HTH MA, and (1 physical or 2 secondary skills) by making them take longer to finish their training when, in reality, they can do it in the same amount of time.

Ok, for one, stop acting like dropping HTH MA is some how a penalty. It's not like you'd ever use it ifyou didn't drop it, so that's moot. No ones going to go "Oh i drop into my weaker style with less bonus' to fight this next guy" lol that's silly.

And what you're doing is... Charging the guy for the extra super power level training he wants. If the MA takes 10 years to learn, and you want all the super powers, bonus and all the physical skills along with all the weapon preferences, that takes time. If your life is dedicated to learning the hunting arts, you're not also putting in 9 hours a day learning a super powered mystical martial art.

And you should stop acting like you’re being all benevolent and generous to the player by allowing them to even have or use the martial art. I’m not trying to make this personal, but please stop taking shots at me.

No, you wouldn’t ever use it if you had it. But you still have to replace it with the specific martial art, so in essence you lose HTH MA for picking up the specific art. If that’s semantics, then fine. But you still lose the skill.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Your logic can be applied to any skill that someone learns as part of his/her occ. "Yeah, I trained to be a cop, but I picked up cooking on the side" or "I finally finished my apprenticeship as a fisherman, but while we were on the boat I had a chance to learn how to use a gun".

Sorry, but I'm going to be against you on this topic. As part of training to be a hunter/vigilante, the character learns Hand to Hand Expert. For the cost of 1 Manhunter skill, the character can get to Martial Arts.

But that's normal Joe blow, I went to the dojo a few times a week, martial arts out of the HU book. It's not the same thing as one of the big ones from N&SS.

But you’re missing the fact here that you’re replacing HTH MA with Moo Gi Gong (or another MA from N&SS). You are training in that art in replacement of HTH MA for your hunter training. I fail to see where hunter training is mutually exclusive from MA training when training to be a hunter includes hand to hand combat training. Unless you think Martial Arts is not considered to be a hand to hand combat form?

There's a difference between a Martial art you pick up in a year or two going to the dojo a few times a week and all day on Saturdays, and one that takes a decade of intense dedicated training to do. Yes they're both martial arts, but a 22 pistol and a .50 barret are both guns. That doesn't make them equal.

So he learns MARTIAL ARTS as part of his training - it is integrated into his training, and is not one of those "I'll pick it up on the side" skills. Now, instead of just sticking with HTH MA, the character decides he wants Moo Gi Gong (or another acceptable martial art). Which, according to you and your logic, cannot be an integral part of his training. Why not? Why can't, as part of his manhunter training, he learn a formal martial art at the same time he learns the rest of his hunter skills?

Because it's the next step up. The martial arts out of the N&SS books are basicly super catagories of their own. You're acheiving dozens of moves, physical skills. Mystical skills, dozens of weapon preferences.

To be 100% honest, the martial art in question, is stronger than the stuff you get from being a hunter. It takes longer to train in the martial art, than it does to train in the hunter super category. You're basically dual classing. If you want the Mmoo Gi Gong. Take a class out of the N&SS book annd take it. Don't combine the classes together. If you are, then suck it up. The stuff you're combining isn't say... a mutant that learned ninjitsu. It's a "Normal human that's completed such high levels of training that he acheives super human status" That super high training takes time. The Martial arts out of N&SS are huge. They have 'normal' ones in there, the one you're choosing is that nextpower catagory up.

It's like there's extraordinary PS, Superhuman PS, and Supernatural PS. The martial arts are much the same way. HTH Basic and Expert.... HTH Martial arts or Assassin.... and.. HTH From N&SS.

Your logic is not valid. You cannot train to have Superhuman or Supernatural PS as these are powers.

It's valid in that there are different strength/power levels with in the same scope of 'thing'. As pointed out, as there's three levels of super strength (( or 4 levels of strength in total)) There are multiple levels of martial arts. HTH Basic And Expert make up the bottom tier. HTH Martial Arts and Assassin the middle tier. And on the ttop tier are the huge expansive martial arts from N&SS. Which give you LOADS more than the previous tiers.

You can train in a specific martial art.

That doesn't make them equal. The young man taking 'self defence' at the YMCA for an hour a week, is not equal to the Ninja master who put in 14 years learning Ninjitsu. Right?

And again, you are making the assumption that hunter training and martial arts training are mutually exclusive of one another.

In this case yes. Hunter training is dedicated training to be.. a hunter. Other than some really ornery trees, there's not much out in the woods to whip your martial arts out on and be doing it at the same time. You're not runing up and engaging the fleet footed mountain goat in hand to hand combat or leaping out of a tree to kick a deer in the face. they're very different skill sets. And in the case of N&SS martial arts. They're not something you pick up at the Rec center, going one night a week. They're huge and in depth things that can take decades of dedicated study to master. And even after that you're starting out at level 1 in the martial art.

The "hand to hand" that comes with the hunter training, IS the kind of Martial art you pick up driving to thhe Dojo a few nights a week for a year or two. you can use it. it's far from useless, but like I pointed out above. A 22 pistol is still a gun. It's still dangerous and potentially deadly, but it's not in the same class as the .50 rifle.

What about if the person training him to be a hunter is an expert in Moo Gi Gong (or another acceptable martial art)? This would be the preferred MA style taught to the prospective hunter, and would an integral part of his training, right?

And he could be an alien from a magic rich planet and give him a magical weapon while exposing him to radiation that mutates him and lets him shoot eye lasers.

Yes you 'can', but you're smooshing it together to get stuff from multiple power categories.

How is it smooshing it together when the book gives the rules for taking a martial art from N&SS?

It doesn't.
Not trying to be nitpicky here but it doesn't say that. The book doesn't mention taking a martial art from N&SS at all. And it says you have to give up one of your manhunter skills (( one of the what, 5 things that's above and beyond your average joe, in that catagory)) Just to get martial arts. That implys that some of the time you would be learning hunter stuff, was spent driving to the dojo to learn the martial art.

In N&SS it gives the OPTION but there's also the option on the same two pages for having someone in robotech using it. Palladium is 'built as a megaversal system'. So you can plug and play things if you choose to. That being said. Somethings don't come out right. How would it look to have your robotech mecha trying to do monkey style.. or drunken style?

Think of it like this: You have 2 college students, John and Jane. They both major in computer science, and they both attend the same school. John decides that, for his core courses, he is just going to stick to the traditional route and just be a generalist, only taking the minimum necessary courses to graduate (in this case we'll say 3 programming languages and 2 database courses). Jane, on the other hand, isn't satisfied with the mere norm - she decides she wants to change things up and switch out the database courses and learn something else, like maybe another programming language or even AI programming. This is done as part of her formal training, and isn't something she just picks up on the side. When they both graduate, they both get the same degree in comp sci. But their training is much different from one another over the course of the 4 years, and it took them 4 years to graduate, with them in the same graduating class.

but your example doesn't work like that. In reality, John Graduates in 4 years with a Bachlors of Science in Computer science. Jane on the other hand gets her BS, her Masters and then a Doctorate in Computer science with a specialty in AI

And... she goes to school twice as long. Because that extra training takes extra time. That extra stuff that puts her over the common CompSci guy with a 4 year degree, takes the extra level of work and dedication. If not, then all people would get the special stuff. And it's no longer special.

I completely disagree with you here. As part of a 4 year BS at Lake Superior State in Michigan, you can select AI Programming as an elective and graduate in the same amount of time as someone who does not take that elective. You are learning it at the same time as someone who is taking something else. If you don’t believe me, look up any comp sci degree program.

Yes. I live in MI. lol Sadly I still disagree. One elective course doesn't make you an AI specialist. It means you're the same CompSci major with one different elective. That elective didn't take you 10 years to learn, vs the one semester the other guy put in for his other elective.

Now take the above example and apply it to the hunter. You've got 2 hunters who have to go through the same basic program. One of them just wants to be normal, while the other one wants some form of real martial arts training. Why can't the guy who wants the formal MA training do the training at the same time the other guy is getting his normal training?

Same thing above. If he wants to be normal it takes normal time. if he wants a martial art that takes 10 years to master with magical abilities and extra stuff. He puts in the extra time (( like getting your PHD))

Heck man. You helped me articulate my point. thank you.

No, I didn’t. Your twisted logic is flawed. You are under the assumption that you cannot train in a specific martial art as part of your hunter training. At what point was it stated that being a hunter and training in a specific form are mutually exclusive from one another?

It's stated, in the martial art itself, when the martial art takes a decade of dedicated study in korea. Not a few nights at the Dojo a week. And even for the hunter to get HU martial arts, it takes away from his hunting ability. (You lose a manhunter skill to even upgrade to HU Martial arts)) To get N&SS ones, it'd take away alot more.

Think of it this way: You study algebra and Spanish at the same time in high school. Do you have to take more time to learn them as someone else who takes algebra and home ec? No – it takes you the same amount of time (a semester) as someone else. And don’t give me some bs “well, to become fluent” crap because you can study anything you want for as long as you want to become better and we aren’t talking about going beyond the required learning course to become better, but to become initially proficient.
HU Martial arts is your Home ec. Something you can take while taking algebra.

N&SS Martial arts, (The one in question) Takes ten YEARS to get to the STARTING LEVEL. They're not the same. You're implying that someone taking an afternoon CPR course is the same as someone who went to college, then to med school and is now a surgeon. Both are medical training, but all things are not equal. (( and it only takes 8 years to get your PHD. The martial art in question takes two years longer than that. THAT should tell you something. ))

What you're doing is basically penalizing the character on top of them having to drop 1 manhunter skill, HTH MA, and (1 physical or 2 secondary skills) by making them take longer to finish their training when, in reality, they can do it in the same amount of time.

Ok, for one, stop acting like dropping HTH MA is some how a penalty. It's not like you'd ever use it ifyou didn't drop it, so that's moot. No ones going to go "Oh i drop into my weaker style with less bonus' to fight this next guy" lol that's silly.

And what you're doing is... Charging the guy for the extra super power level training he wants. If the MA takes 10 years to learn, and you want all the super powers, bonus and all the physical skills along with all the weapon preferences, that takes time. If your life is dedicated to learning the hunting arts, you're not also putting in 9 hours a day learning a super powered mystical martial art.

And you should stop acting like you’re being all benevolent and generous to the player by allowing them to even have or use the martial art. I’m not trying to make this personal, but please stop taking shots at me.

No, you wouldn’t ever use it if you had it. But you still have to replace it with the specific martial art, so in essence you lose HTH MA for picking up the specific art. If that’s semantics, then fine. But you still lose the skill.

Actually no. If you go by the rules, N&SS says nothing about the MA in the HU book. So if we're going to get snippy and exact, alll you'd lose is one physical skill or two secondary skills. You can still have the HTH Expert that you start with as a Hunter. OR if you've up graded your HTH Expert to HTH Martial arts (HUversion) You'd keep that.

Page 164 in N&SS says absolutely nothing about losing or replacing martial arts. Just one physical skill or 2 secondary skills. Some people above say "To upgrade to N&SS, I think you should have to upgrade first to HU Martial arts, then trade it in at the cost of more skills" But that's their opinion or house rules. Not anything from the book.

[Nightmask]

I guess I should point out you don't speak for anyone but yourself on these forums, and give yourself a laughable sense of entitlement to try and claim how 'anyone else reading your posts thinks the same way I do' to try and bolster your totally off-base claims.

Keep telling yourself they're off-base.

Again you aren't speaking for anyone else on this forum but yourself, you aren't some representative of the collective here, you're just you and you're just dead wrong.

You don't even have the sense be able to tell the difference between a class and a MA insisting that you're combining classes by having a Hunter/Vigilante take as an ALTERNATIVE combat training Moo Gi Gong instead of the standard MA of the class. If you bothered to actually look at what classes in N&SS have Moo Gi Gong available to them you'd also see that many have considerably more skills to go with them than the Hunter/Vigilante does

Yes, but those are classes from Ninja's and Superspies. Not from HU, and you're acting like it's a forgone conclusion, it's not, it's an optional ruling, that your GM may or may not allow.

I'm not acting like anything, I'm merely pointing out that Moo Gi Gong training for a Hunter/Vigilante is by no means twinkish or some kind of absurd add-on for the Power Category as you keep insisting. He's a HUNTER, he's trained to FIGHT and KILL, a MA centered around fighting and killing with weapons is completely reasonable for the power category. Given he's lost 2 attacks/turn and is fairly helpless if he's unable to find something to use as a weapon he's not even close to being exceptionally powerful. When you're making 2 attacks and everyone else is doing 4-6 attacks and your weapons are generally doing equal or less damage than your teammates you're by no means going to be running around owning anyone especially when your opponents have twice to triple the number of attacks you do.

so trying to make it out as if the Hunter/Vigilante having that MA is 'twinkish' is just absurd, and while Moo Gi Gong is a companion MA to Hwang Do Karate it's clearly capable of standing on its own and says so in the book.

Doing it the way you're advocating and explaining, is. You're only grabbing it for the weapon preferences and "anything as a weapon" Reasoning. Nothing more.

No, that's how you keep insisting it is, and ignoring saliant points such as the power category being about hunting targets and killing them, it's the entire point of the class. Of course its going to be a weapons-heavy class. You might have an argument if someone were trying to select Moo Gi Gong for their Stage Magician, a non-combat oriented power category, but not when it comes to a very combat-oriented class.

When it comes down to the type of player, based on your posts I doubt you'd find many interested in seeing you at the same table as them. You don't come off as one who's 'you play your character and I'll play mine' instead it's all 'hey your character isn't playing how I think you should play it and has things I don't think it should have that's annoying me!'. Doesn't sound like you play well with others at all.

I do, but like most (I'm guessing) I play with others that see the rules like I do for the most part. And I generally don't play with twinks, or children. (( Any longer. I did when I was a child)). The people I play with would probably laugh you from the table. Conversely I probably wouldn't fit in your games if all your friends make char's and do stuff your way. But that's ok. I wouldn't want to.

You've such an inflated sense of ego it's a wonder anyone bothers playing with you at all. The people you play with would more likely go 'wow talk about an excellent game, great Role-playing last night' if I were in the game, and laugh you from the table insisting all the while that 'No really I speak for all of you and you have to agree with me that a guy I've never role-played with is a twink because I see twinks everywhere'.

Go look up the definition of what a twink is, so you can actually use it where it applies.

I've asked before, so I'll ask again. How do you define twink, as it pertains to role playing? Lay it out for me. We may have different understandings of the word.

Now see, given you're the one calling everything twinkish it is you who has to explain what you mean by it, because everyone else is going 'huh? What's he talking about?'. Clearly given all the responses have been 'what do you mean it's twinkish?' as the response our definition of twink is obviously different from yours, so enlighten us.

As is you've been tossing it around without any foundation to it just to use it as an inflammatory term.

I know my foundation but I'm curious as to your own.

Too bad no one else knows what your foundation is and you've made no effort to explain how you define it compared to the standard definition.

and dealing with opponents it's quite contrary to be in this thread insisting on how it's just too much for someone to be a Hunter/Vigilante with Moo Gi Gong which improves his combat effectiveness. Seems like you just comment to argue rather than out of anything consistent given how you contradict yourself and focus only on ROLL-playing over ROLE-playing.

Not at all. lol I just don't see you guys as the second types. Might you surprise me if we actually sat down and played? Sure. But it'd be a surprise. Your posts have shown me something different.

My posts haven't shown you anything. Roleplaying is completely distinct from holding a conversation and discussing an issue with someone. There has been no roleplaying here so you've got nothing to base your comments on.

would have me killing his character off in friendly fire REALLY fast so I could get to actually role-playing and enjoying the game.

Killing off other char's in friendly fire. *nods* Yep. You'd be AWESOME to play with.

Don't go leaving off 'player is being disruptive and ruining the game play experience' part, for which you'd be hard pressed to find players who wouldn't kill off someone who was ruining the game for them being a twit. If anything I've seen much bragging at time from people about how 'yeah he was just ruining the game so we killed his character to teach him a lesson'.

In any case I'm done with this, you're just posting to insult and inflate your post count (not sure why anyone would but apparently some find that a prize to shoot for) and contributing nothing of value as you pretend to yourself that your opinion is everyone's opinion when it's just your own and all you've been getting is people disagreeing with you and none agreeing with you.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I guess I should point out you don't speak for anyone but yourself on these forums, and give yourself a laughable sense of entitlement to try and claim how 'anyone else reading your posts thinks the same way I do' to try and bolster your totally off-base claims.

Keep telling yourself they're off-base.

Again you aren't speaking for anyone else on this forum but yourself, you aren't some representative of the collective here, you're just you and you're just dead wrong.

Neither are you, and I think I'm right. So it's a bit of a stalemate eh?

You don't even have the sense be able to tell the difference between a class and a MA insisting that you're combining classes by having a Hunter/Vigilante take as an ALTERNATIVE combat training Moo Gi Gong instead of the standard MA of the class. If you bothered to actually look at what classes in N&SS have Moo Gi Gong available to them you'd also see that many have considerably more skills to go with them than the Hunter/Vigilante does

Yes, but those are classes from Ninja's and Superspies. Not from HU, and you're acting like it's a forgone conclusion, it's not, it's an optional ruling, that your GM may or may not allow.

I'm not acting like anything, I'm merely pointing out that Moo Gi Gong training for a Hunter/Vigilante is by no means twinkish or some kind of absurd add-on for the Power Category as you keep insisting. He's a HUNTER, he's trained to FIGHT and KILL,

Really? You're fighting the deer, or the rams, or the bears? You're trained to fight um and kill um? Here I thought it was trained to hunt um and shoot um.

Lets see. Disguise Scent....
Trap snare small animals....
Modify weapon cartridges...
Quick Draw Initiative, on either hand guns or rifles. Not both.
WP Sharpshooter. on only one type weapon.

So... no. He's a HUNTER. He's trained to hunt. And while you can shoot a human with the skills, and in theory that is where the hunter ended up, that's not the origin of his training. The origin is out in the woods or the jungle, hunting animals, that he is NOW using on human prey. The write up states this clearly, that the urban envrioment is strange and new to the hunter, and not his native environment for the use of his skills.

a MA centered around fighting and killing with weapons is completely reasonable for the power category. Given he's lost 2 attacks/turn

the 'loss of two attacks thing" is pretty much outdated thinking. in RUE the attacks are just rolled into the martial arts now. So you should just go ahead and add in the 2 for N&SS. Yes I'm aware in the 80s when N&SS came out it was different, but the rules have changed since then.

and is fairly helpless if he's unable to find something to use as a weapon he's not even close to being exceptionally powerful.

Not really. Just glancing at it, you get added PE PP SDC Roll with punch fall impact, maintain balance, leap, back flip, roll, dodge, parry , auto parry, multiple dodge, strike, knife hand, backhand, kick attack, crescent kick, backward sweep, jump kick, death blow, leap attack, Pull punch, knock out stun, critical strike, and critical strike from the rear, one body hardening power, Korean.

Not exactly helpless with out a weapon, and much more in depth and stronger than Martial Arts out of the Heroes Unlimited book. That's not even going into the weapons stuff yet.

When you're making 2 attacks and everyone else is doing 4-6 attacks

I know I've only just replied to this, in this post, but the other two attacks are pretty universally rolled in. I've never, in 20 years of playing Palladium, and going to dozens of RP conventions, and played in countless rp groups, including clubs in college and such, ever had a group not give the 2 attacks that every other palladium system gets, to N&SS stuff. Not once. I'm sure there are some out there that don't. But all the ones I've --ever-- encountered do, and it's as far as I know, just accepted now with RUE out and how the martial arts are written up in there. (( it was back in the 80s and 90s too but more so now))

and your weapons are generally doing equal or less damage than your teammates

Well the weapons still do as much as they do. it's just like.. picking up a magazine or some paperclips or something as improv'd weapons that are weaker, right? You're acctually doing a bit better with normal weapons.

you're by no means going to be running around owning anyone especially when your opponents have twice to triple the number of attacks you do.

so trying to make it out as if the Hunter/Vigilante having that MA is 'twinkish' is just absurd, and while Moo Gi Gong is a companion MA to Hwang Do Karate it's clearly capable of standing on its own and says so in the book.

Doing it the way you're advocating and explaining, is. You're only grabbing it for the weapon preferences and "anything as a weapon" Reasoning. Nothing more.

No, that's how you keep insisting it is, and ignoring saliant points such as the power category being about hunting targets and killing them, it's the entire point of the class. Of course its going to be a weapons-heavy class. You might have an argument if someone were trying to select Moo Gi Gong for their Stage Magician, a non-combat oriented power category, but not when it comes to a very combat-oriented class.

The "hunter" Isn't about getting up and "Fighting" Their targets. They're about hunting and shooting them. As.... every thing in the class points out.

When it comes down to the type of player, based on your posts I doubt you'd find many interested in seeing you at the same table as them. You don't come off as one who's 'you play your character and I'll play mine' instead it's all 'hey your character isn't playing how I think you should play it and has things I don't think it should have that's annoying me!'. Doesn't sound like you play well with others at all.

I do, but like most (I'm guessing) I play with others that see the rules like I do for the most part. And I generally don't play with twinks, or children. (( Any longer. I did when I was a child)). The people I play with would probably laugh you from the table. Conversely I probably wouldn't fit in your games if all your friends make char's and do stuff your way. But that's ok. I wouldn't want to.

You've such an inflated sense of ego it's a wonder anyone bothers playing with you at all.

It's not inflated. I've said I doubt I'd play with your group if they're like you. Just as my group would mock you and drive you off for your playstyle.

The people you play with would more likely go 'wow talk about an excellent game, great Role-playing last night' if I were in the game, and laugh you from the table insisting all the while that 'No really I speak for all of you and you have to agree with me that a guy I've never role-played with is a twink because I see twinks everywhere'.

They might. If they shared your twinkish mindset and generally unpleasant demeanor. *nods* Again, different groups for different types. If your group is like you, and plays as you do, it's a group of twinks and thusly all is well in your game world. Silly, but fun for you.

Go look up the definition of what a twink is, so you can actually use it where it applies.

I've asked before, so I'll ask again. How do you define twink, as it pertains to role playing? Lay it out for me. We may have different understandings of the word.

Now see, given you're the one calling everything twinkish it is you who has to explain what you mean by it, because everyone else is going 'huh? What's he talking about?'. Clearly given all the responses have been 'what do you mean it's twinkish?' as the response our definition of twink is obviously different from yours, so enlighten us.

So again, you don't know what a twink is. You just don't think you are one. I've asked more than once how you define it.. and you're just going 'No I'm not one.. but.. .I refuse to say what I think it is". If you don't know. Just say you don't know man. You're the one claiming you're not one, and you know the definition. I've asked you twice. Why you dancing around it and trying to dodge?

As is you've been tossing it around without any foundation to it just to use it as an inflammatory term.

I know my foundation but I'm curious as to your own.

Too bad no one else knows what your foundation is and you've made no effort to explain how you define it compared to the standard definition.

I've shown what I think a twink is. You're saying I'm wrong, but refuse, upon repeated request to define it.

I don't think you know what it is. You just don't think you are one.

and dealing with opponents it's quite contrary to be in this thread insisting on how it's just too much for someone to be a Hunter/Vigilante with Moo Gi Gong which improves his combat effectiveness. Seems like you just comment to argue rather than out of anything consistent given how you contradict yourself and focus only on ROLL-playing over ROLE-playing.

Not at all. lol I just don't see you guys as the second types. Might you surprise me if we actually sat down and played? Sure. But it'd be a surprise. Your posts have shown me something different.

My posts haven't shown you anything.

Oh I think they have. They've spoken quite clearly to your mindset and how you approach the game.

Roleplaying is completely distinct from holding a conversation and discussing an issue with someone. There has been no roleplaying here so you've got nothing to base your comments on.

I see the twinkish crap you do for character creation, I'm basing my comments on that.

would have me killing his character off in friendly fire REALLY fast so I could get to actually role-playing and enjoying the game.

Killing off other char's in friendly fire. *nods* Yep. You'd be AWESOME to play with.

Don't go leaving off 'player is being disruptive and ruining the game play experience' part,

No. I realize that's what you'd do.I'd just kick you out of the RP group for being a jerk. lol

for which you'd be hard pressed to find players who wouldn't kill off someone who was ruining the game for them being a twit.

No. Not really. The groups I play with are generaly friends. If it's a random group at a convention or something and someone came along like you and started wacking other members of the game "REALLY FAST" so they could get to their own personal enjoyment of the game... I don't think they'd last too long either.

If anything I've seen much bragging at time from people about how 'yeah he was just ruining the game so we killed his character to teach him a lesson'.

I've not seen that. It sounds like a pretty juvenile thing to do with someone you're getting together to recreate with. If I had that much of a problem with someone. I'd speak to them about it. if they failed to change what ever behavior I had that much of a problem with.. I simply wouldn't choose to spend my free time playing with them.

Your response seems to be one of bullying and punishing your friends or people you're playing with. I'd try and talk to them like an adult. Or just not waste my time and energy on playing with someone I didn't like that much.

In any case I'm done with this, you're just posting to insult and inflate your post count (not sure why anyone would but apparently some find that a prize to shoot for) and contributing nothing of value as you pretend to yourself that your opinion is everyone's opinion when it's just your own and all you've been getting is people disagreeing with you and none agreeing with you.

No. I'm countering your side of the debate. There's a difference. I really don't care about post counts. If I did I could post 100s of times a day to the sound off and not even look like I was trying to pump the count. I rather think such things are silly.

I know it might be an alien concept to you, but someone disagreeing with you doesn't have to have ulterior motive. Past just thinking your wrong.

You claim not to be a twink and feel I'm Sooooooooooooo wrong to say so, but when asked repeatedly what you think one is, as we may have different views on it, you refuse to answer. That should tell ya something Nightmask.

[Regularguy]

So... no. He's a HUNTER. He's trained to hunt. And while you can shoot a human with the skills, and in theory that is where the hunter ended up, that's not the origin of his training. The origin is out in the woods or the jungle, hunting animals, that he is NOW using on human prey. The write up states this clearly, that the urban envrioment is strange and new to the hunter, and not his native environment for the use of his skills.

Just to make sure we're on the same page: when N&SS first came out, the powers that be clearly wrote that (a) Hunter/Vigilante types could take Moo Gi Gong by sacrificing a skill or two, and that (b) Mutants and Experiments, like Psionicists and Hardware types, could likewise take Moo Gi Gong by sacrificing yet more skills, as per the conversion rules. And when the revised version of HU came out, the powers that be clearly wrote that, on second thought, Moo Gi Gong (a) shouldn't be allowed for Hardware types or Psionicists, let alone Mutants or Experiments, but (b) is more suited to Hunter/Vigilante types. Is that about right?

[gaby]

I still say make more Special skills that are similar to Not Flashy minor powers like Hold Breath that they get though training.

I allow this for all the Special training types.

[Jefffar]

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