Top militaries soilder for soilder wise .. your opinions ?

[Lenwen]

Soilder for soilder .. (not who has the biggest)

Which militaries currently active on Rifts earth .. Has thee best Military soilder for soilder .. equipment wise an everything .

Whats your guys opinions ?

[Shark_Force]

hmmm... tough choice. probably one of the places in south america 1. i'm tempted to vote for... manoa i think it is? that's the one where the average soldier is an amazon warrior, right?

but that said, omagua (the city o' cats) could probably give it a run for it's money, or maybe even the achilles republic (that's the one with the mutant animals that didn't go to omagua, right?) just via sheer psionic might.

the incan empire has some pretty danged impressive special forces (demigods armed with holy weapons for example), but i don't think has the overall military nearly as well equipped, so i'd say not them.

but probably the absolute best is the megaversal legion. a bit lacking in the area of supernatural power (both psionics and magic), but very strong tech and a lot of experience to back it up. i figure after years (decades? centuries?) of fighting supernatural stuff, they've probably figured out most of the limitations of magic and exploit the heck out of it.

[glitterboy2098]

i'd argue the nation with the best soldiers overall would likely be either the New Navy, or the NGR.

[keir451]

In descending order I'd say; CS, NGR, Atlantis, Manoa, Silver River Republics, Russia, New Navy (they're technically sailors & marines, not soldiers), Japan (Republic and Empire).
I place the CS at the top because for their immediate area they are the best, the same for the NGR and so on down the line.

[glitterboy2098]

except we've been asked "in the world" not "in their region". sure, the CS is the best in north america..but worldwide, they're middle of the pack. the NGR has better training, equipment, and organization, for example.

[Dustin Fireblade]

but probably the absolute best is the megaversal legion. a bit lacking in the area of supernatural power (both psionics and magic), but very strong tech and a lot of experience to back it up. i figure after years (decades? centuries?) of fighting supernatural stuff, they've probably figured out most of the limitations of magic and exploit the heck out of it.

I'll second the ML, but just a minor correction here. They actually do recruit entire units of soldiers with magic and psi, and have "hundreds of races" in addition to the big two of human and Ojahee.

[Mack]

I'll go with a tie between Free Quebec (who are described as slightly more experienced than the CS) and the New German Republic.

One thing that concerns me with the NGR is that the standard Grunt starts with only HtoH Basic, not Expert. (Although I don't know if that was changed in the latest book.)

[keir451]

except we've been asked "in the world" not "in their region". sure, the CS is the best in north america..but worldwide, they're middle of the pack. the NGR has better training, equipment, and organization, for example.

Perhaps, perhaps. IMO I'd place the CS as the "Top Dog" militarily, while all the other groups have excellent gear their numbers are, in many cases (but not all), lower than the CS's ro they don't have the equivalent exeprience the CS has after just coming out of the Tolkeen war.
New Navy's good but, they're confined strictly to the oceans, Atlantis DOES have a larger military over all but Splynn isn't interested in using it as such.
NGR equipment is good, but all they've been doing is fighting hit and run vs Gargoyles for too long (IMO).
Basically only the CS is (apparently) interested in being actively expansionistic/imperialistic. So while many others with superior tech exist they don't seem to be intersted in challenging the CS (at this point in time) which, while admittedly arguable) puts the CS at the top (for now).

[keir451]

Megaversal Legion. Every line soldier is MDC. They fight over their weight class all the time so they are well trained and they have advanced antigrav technology.

CS has a larger army but unit for unit they'd get whupped pretty much every time. Free Quebec, NGR/Triax and the New Navy are all better unit for unit than the CS but in a straight up fight with the Legion they'd all get hammered because the Legion accepts magic and can put more artillery in the air at a longer range.

Atlantis would curbstomp the CS if it ever came to a fight as well because they can put down magic and advanced technology and the CS just doesn't have the capability to handle a fully integrated opponent who can bring on similar numbers. And the CS knows it which is why they are paranoid.

Atlantis vs the Legion would be interesting and brutal but I think the nudge goes to the Legion so long as Atlantis doesn't pull out all of the stops and overwhelm them with numbers.

WildWalker

I agree that IF Atlantis really wanted to go on the offensive the CS is toast. I count Free Quebec as part of the CS as a whole.
As much as I love the New Navy, they are not a match for the CS Army as they are strictly a Navy. Now against the current CS Navy the New Navy has it hands down, but not against the entire CS Army. The NGR has excellent tech, but they don't fight the same way the CS does and in time the CS will control a greater amount of territory and resources than the NGR will.
Against the ML, the CS is in for a fight, but in the end despite the ML's tech level and the fact that they are run by US Army personnel I think the CS could win in a strict ground fight. This ins't because I love the CS or anything, it's just that I think the mentalities of the other groups, currently, doesn't put them on the same page as the CS. As I said, the CS is being aggressively expansionistic, the others are not. That creates an entirely different mind set in the way they will use their military power.
Though my roommate reminded me of the Yama Kings, now those guys are truly evil and seriously cannot be beaten. I think they could even create a nasty meat grinder for Atlantis should the two ever go at it.

[Crucible]

The New Navy and whoever has the most Paratroopers...LOL!!!

[keir451]

The New Navy and whoever has the most Paratroopers...LOL!!!

[Nightmask]

Megaversal Legion. Every line soldier is MDC. They fight over their weight class all the time so they are well trained and they have advanced antigrav technology.

CS has a larger army but unit for unit they'd get whupped pretty much every time. Free Quebec, NGR/Triax and the New Navy are all better unit for unit than the CS but in a straight up fight with the Legion they'd all get hammered because the Legion accepts magic and can put more artillery in the air at a longer range.

Atlantis would curbstomp the CS if it ever came to a fight as well because they can put down magic and advanced technology and the CS just doesn't have the capability to handle a fully integrated opponent who can bring on similar numbers. And the CS knows it which is why they are paranoid.

Atlantis vs the Legion would be interesting and brutal but I think the nudge goes to the Legion so long as Atlantis doesn't pull out all of the stops and overwhelm them with numbers.

WildWalker

I agree that IF Atlantis really wanted to go on the offensive the CS is toast. I count Free Quebec as part of the CS as a whole.
As much as I love the New Navy, they are not a match for the CS Army as they are strictly a Navy. Now against the current CS Navy the New Navy has it hands down, but not against the entire CS Army. The NGR has excellent tech, but they don't fight the same way the CS does and in time the CS will control a greater amount of territory and resources than the NGR will.
Against the ML, the CS is in for a fight, but in the end despite the ML's tech level and the fact that they are run by US Army personnel I think the CS could win in a strict ground fight. This ins't because I love the CS or anything, it's just that I think the mentalities of the other groups, currently, doesn't put them on the same page as the CS. As I said, the CS is being aggressively expansionistic, the others are not. That creates an entirely different mind set in the way they will use their military power.
Though my roommate reminded me of the Yama Kings, now those guys are truly evil and seriously cannot be beaten. I think they could even create a nasty meat grinder for Atlantis should the two ever go at it.

Sorry but the CS just isn't going to win a battle against the Multiversal Legion let alone a war, they're inferior across the board in anything but numbers and the ML has managed to hold off the Mechanoids during one of their full-scale sterilization attempts until the entire planet could evacuate. Individually or in groups the CS and everyone else other than maybe the Splugorth in Atlantis just can't match what they've got, and no one can match them in battle experience under situations beyond comprehension by all but those who've fought it.

One simply can't ignore that the ML is presented as pretty much the most elite warriors in the megaverse, not Rifts Earth but the Megaverse. Their enslavers sent them into battle against the most lethal and insane situations possible and they WON. They've held off the Mechanoids and the Mechanoids make Saberhagen's Berserkers look like a child's toy in comparison. Realistically the only way for the CS to win against that is GM fiat handwaving away the obvious superiority the ML has over them, which would be as laughable as having the CS defeat the Mechanoids. Both are situations that simply can't happen without 'well God made it happen' being the reason why.

[Crucible]

The New Navy and whoever has the most Paratroopers...LOL!!!

LOL!!! The paratrooper in my campaign is awesome. WAY more than a beat stick. Our beatsticks have emerged as the Slammer and Gunfighter. Gunfighters are vastly underrated.

As for the Megaversal legion, they are awesome, but I don't think they'll beat the CS. The CS is WAY more hardcore than given credit for. I would give the New Navy nearly any contest win. I don't believe in just numbers written in books, but rather details that make common sense. Outposts, allies, small bases, etc. Vanguard. The New Navy has all kinds. These "X-Factors" will be the real test.

[Nightmask]

The New Navy and whoever has the most Paratroopers...LOL!!!

LOL!!! The paratrooper in my campaign is awesome. WAY more than a beat stick. Our beatsticks have emerged as the Slammer and Gunfighter. Gunfighters are vastly underrated.

As for the Megaversal legion, they are awesome, but I don't think they'll beat the CS. The CS is WAY more hardcore than given credit for. I would give the New Navy nearly any contest win. I don't believe in just numbers written in books, but rather details that make common sense. Outposts, allies, small bases, etc. Vanguard. The New Navy has all kinds. These "X-Factors" will be the real test.

Sorry but you're crediting the CS with the ability to hold out against people who've dealt with an invasion force made up of millions of Mechanoids, basically stating that the CS could do the same and do it better. That's just not going to happen. It has nothing to do with not giving them the credit that they're due, it has everything to do with not crediting them with what they simply aren't due. The CS simply could not ever have held out using its entire military force against even a fraction of what the Megaversal Legion has. The Mechanoids alone would have annihilated them and done so in very short order. The Legion meanwhile defended an entire planet successfully, and that was hardly the only one. The CS doesn't even begin to compare with how hardcore the Megaversal Legion is.

[Crucible]

The New Navy and whoever has the most Paratroopers...LOL!!!

LOL!!! The paratrooper in my campaign is awesome. WAY more than a beat stick. Our beatsticks have emerged as the Slammer and Gunfighter. Gunfighters are vastly underrated.

As for the Megaversal legion, they are awesome, but I don't think they'll beat the CS. The CS is WAY more hardcore than given credit for. I would give the New Navy nearly any contest win. I don't believe in just numbers written in books, but rather details that make common sense. Outposts, allies, small bases, etc. Vanguard. The New Navy has all kinds. These "X-Factors" will be the real test.

Sorry but you're crediting the CS with the ability to hold out against people who've dealt with an invasion force made up of millions of Mechanoids, basically stating that the CS could do the same and do it better. That's just not going to happen. It has nothing to do with not giving them the credit that they're due, it has everything to do with not crediting them with what they simply aren't due. The CS simply could not ever have held out using its entire military force against even a fraction of what the Megaversal Legion has. The Mechanoids alone would have annihilated them and done so in very short order. The Legion meanwhile defended an entire planet successfully, and that was hardly the only one. The CS doesn't even begin to compare with how hardcore the Megaversal Legion is.

Tell me how you figure.

[glitterboy2098]

actually he has a point. the megaveral legion protected a planet from a full on mechanoids invasion.

meaning a mothership the size of our moon and trillions of mechanoids descending on the planet. a full blown mechanoids invasion of rifts earth would be over in a day, as the mechniods zerg-rush the entire planet and the mothership's light weaponry nuke all the major communities.

the Legion held out long enough to evacuate a planets population. while we don't know how many that was, just being able to last a few hours against such an invasion shows them to be hardcore bad-asses...

[Crucible]

actually he has a point. the megaveral legion protected a planet from a full on mechanoids invasion.

meaning a mothership the size of our moon and trillions of mechanoids descending on the planet. a full blown mechanoids invasion of rifts earth would be over in a day, as the mechniods zerg-rush the entire planet and the mothership's light weaponry nuke all the major communities.

the Legion held out long enough to evacuate a planets population. while we don't know how many that was, just being able to last a few hours against such an invasion shows them to be hardcore bad-asses...

No doubt in my mind that the ML is awesome and possibly one of my faves, but the CS is vastly underrated if it is thought that they could not do the same.

The CS is a group that I would say is known for having an answer to any and I mean ANY threat in some way of another.

[Crucible]

actually he has a point. the megaveral legion protected a planet from a full on mechanoids invasion.

meaning a mothership the size of our moon and trillions of mechanoids descending on the planet. a full blown mechanoids invasion of rifts earth would be over in a day, as the mechniods zerg-rush the entire planet and the mothership's light weaponry nuke all the major communities.

the Legion held out long enough to evacuate a planets population. while we don't know how many that was, just being able to last a few hours against such an invasion shows them to be hardcore bad-asses...

No doubt in my mind that the ML is awesome and possibly one of my faves, but the CS is vastly underrated if it is thought that they could not do the same.

The CS did square off against a small force of Mechiniodes and didn't do well, they didn't lose but they didn't kick there asses. Now the CS is not a bunch of slobs like some think they are well trained fighting troops but There are stronger forces on Rifts earth.

Absolutely stronger forces. No doubt about it. My money is still on the New Navy (and whoever has the most Paratroopers), but I think that its just what you said that makes them scary. They took on mechanoids a small army) but against how many CS troops and what classifications? As a whole and in a war between the ML and CS...I don't know bro. I just don't. The CS isn't a world beater, but they are tactically sound. In SA they would lose hands down, but in NA...edge...The CS.

We should do a Deadliest Warrior Rifts style.

Megaversal Legion vs New Navy
Coalition vs NGR
Federation of magic vs Psyscape
Lazlo vs The Vampire Kingdoms
The Cyber Knights vs The Mystic Knights
Australia vs Japan

[Crucible]

Sadly the CS really doesn't have the edge anywhere even in NA against the ML. Again I am a fan of the CS they are hard fighting and vastly under rated because everyone thinks they are mindless fools but the ML just has them on Tech training and combat experience.

As for the CK vs the MK the MK win hands down, they are geared with Psionics and magic while the CK are geared to be anti-tech.

That's not Deadliest Warrior! That's just my daddy is bigger than yours. I want to go through the whole shebang!

Also, I like the ML better, but not sold that the CS wouldn't find a way.

[Crucible]

Sadly the CS really doesn't have the edge anywhere even in NA against the ML. Again I am a fan of the CS they are hard fighting and vastly under rated because everyone thinks they are mindless fools but the ML just has them on Tech training and combat experience.

As for the CK vs the MK the MK win hands down, they are geared with Psionics and magic while the CK are geared to be anti-tech.

That's not Deadliest Warrior! That's just my daddy is bigger than yours. I want to go through the whole shebang!

Also, I like the ML better, but not sold that the CS wouldn't find a way.

That really isn't my daddy is bigger then yours a Cyber-knight is geared to take on high tech opposition I.E the CS, NGR, Republic of Japan the Cyber knight has (at the right level) self healing Cyber armor and a psi-sword while the Mystic knight has magic psionics and a immunity to energy based attacks and no code of conduct by which to operate. Most mystic knights are carrying weapons far deadlier then a Psi-sword and some (at the right level) have a psi-sword themselves. Attribute requirements for the mystic knight are also higher then the cyber-knights meaning the average mystic knight is already stronger and faster then the average cyber knight. Like I said Hands down Mystic Knight.

That's not what I meant. I was being funny, but I'd like to see that overall. I may actually do a Deadliest Warrior type thread at some time and go the whole mile with it all. Ever seen the show? I have thought a few times that a certain group would win and then boom. Never know really, then there is training and the code may play as an advantage. I have seen codes actually make a difference at times, but then not others. Just an interesting idea to throw out.

[Comrade Corsarius]

Mindwerks.

Quite simply, they have an extraordinarily good military that works from all angles.

Their standard soldier is either a crazy (an augmented superhuman superior to normal squishies), or a regular human augmented by one or two physical or psionic crazy implants.

Their Special Forces is the Psi-Crazy, an exceptionally powerful class which incorporates the vigour of the crazy with super-psionics and a regenerating MD field.

Their Borgs at the time of writing were far superior to anything else that had previously been written. I would expect them to keep up.

Their Anti-magic/Psionic division uses the Null Psi-Borg. A being not only with the power of a partial conversion borg, but with the ability to disrupt spellcasting, magic, and psionics.

Their intel/assassination division uses Ecto-travellers: Powerful beings whose 'true' bodies lie safe at HQ while their unkillable ecto forms wreak havoc after forming from apparently nowhere, disappearing without a trace once the 'job' is done. Alternately, they can spy almost any secret, while being powerful enough to defend against other astral nasties.

Their 'heavy' division uses AI robots that would make ARCHIE 3 blush, and a piloted robot that could take on a skull smasher, but was written years beforehand.

Their weapons in general Highly powerful energy weapons with a regenerative function that means they can continue to fire (given time) once their e-clips are expended.

In short, for all-round capability and power, Mindwerks is 'da bomb'.

[Crucible]

Mindwerks.

Quite simply, they have an extraordinarily good military that works from all angles.

Their standard soldier is either a crazy (an augmented superhuman superior to normal squishies), or a regular human augmented by one or two physical or psionic crazy implants.

Their Special Forces is the Psi-Crazy, an exceptionally powerful class which incorporates the vigour of the crazy with super-psionics and a regenerating MD field.

Their Borgs at the time of writing were far superior to anything else that had previously been written. I would expect them to keep up.

Their Anti-magic/Psionic division uses the Null Psi-Borg. A being not only with the power of a partial conversion borg, but with the ability to disrupt spellcasting, magic, and psionics.

Their intel/assassination division uses Ecto-travellers: Powerful beings whose 'true' bodies lie safe at HQ while their unkillable ecto forms wreak havoc after forming from apparently nowhere, disappearing without a trace once the 'job' is done. Alternately, they can spy almost any secret, while being powerful enough to defend against other astral nasties.

Their 'heavy' division uses AI robots that would make ARCHIE 3 blush, and a piloted robot that could take on a skull smasher, but was written years beforehand.

Their weapons in general Highly powerful energy weapons with a regenerative function that means they can continue to fire (given time) once their e-clips are expended.

In short, for all-round capability and power, Mindwerks is 'da bomb'.

scary

[Nightmask]

actually he has a point. the megaveral legion protected a planet from a full on mechanoids invasion.

meaning a mothership the size of our moon and trillions of mechanoids descending on the planet. a full blown mechanoids invasion of rifts earth would be over in a day, as the mechniods zerg-rush the entire planet and the mothership's light weaponry nuke all the major communities.

the Legion held out long enough to evacuate a planets population. while we don't know how many that was, just being able to last a few hours against such an invasion shows them to be hardcore bad-asses...

No doubt in my mind that the ML is awesome and possibly one of my faves, but the CS is vastly underrated if it is thought that they could not do the same.

The CS is a group that I would say is known for having an answer to any and I mean ANY threat in some way of another.

The CS has 'God made it happen' as how they manage to remain supreme. Realistically they should have had little hope of defeating Tolkeen going up against an opponent that they had zero understanding or knowledge of what they could truly unleash in the field. Remember the fiasco of President Carter's rescue attempt of those hostages at the end of his term because of something as simple as the equipment was woefully inadequate for the desert sands? The CS was even moreso compared to a legion of magic users covering a wide range of magicks that its troops had no idea how to deal with.

So no, the CS is not being underrated when someone says they're inferior to a group like the Megaversal Legion or that its troops couldn't even begin to pull off something like fight off a full-scale Mechanoid invasion that would blanket attack across the entire planet hitting every CS position with vastly superior troops. One is vastly overrating them to suggest that they have what it takes to compete on that playing field. Sure they've survived in the chaos of Rifts Earth and have wins that are good and can be fairly credited to them rather than dismissed as 'God made it happen' but those wins just don't compare against the Megaversal Legion or others.

[Killer Cyborg]

The CS has 'God made it happen' as how they manage to remain supreme. Realistically they should have had little hope of defeating Tolkeen going up against an opponent that they had zero understanding or knowledge of what they could truly unleash in the field

Yeah... I guess battling mages and the supernatural for a hundred years left them completely unprepared for taking out a lone city.

[Comrade Corsarius]

The CS has 'God made it happen' as how they manage to remain supreme. Realistically they should have had little hope of defeating Tolkeen going up against an opponent that they had zero understanding or knowledge of what they could truly unleash in the field. Remember the fiasco of President Carter's rescue attempt of those hostages at the end of his term because of something as simple as the equipment was woefully inadequate for the desert sands? The CS was even moreso compared to a legion of magic users covering a wide range of magicks that its troops had no idea how to deal with.

So no, the CS is not being underrated when someone says they're inferior to a group like the Megaversal Legion or that its troops couldn't even begin to pull off something like fight off a full-scale Mechanoid invasion that would blanket attack across the entire planet hitting every CS position with vastly superior troops. One is vastly overrating them to suggest that they have what it takes to compete on that playing field. Sure they've survived in the chaos of Rifts Earth and have wins that are good and can be fairly credited to them rather than dismissed as 'God made it happen' but those wins just don't compare against the Megaversal Legion or others.

That may well be the case, and I quite agree. Then again, I believe you may be mistaking the point: the question is looking at individual soldiers and equipment, rather than the organisation as a whole. Given carte blanche numbers and resources, the CS could very likely hold off an invasion of mechanoids also, I'd expect. I also don't buy the story that they had no idea as to what they were getting into at Tolkeen, seeing as they'd been gathering intel for years, and had been getting a lot of practice fighting mages for years before that.

Either way: Your megaversal legion is impressive. Let's break it down.

Standard Soldier: High-quality full conversion borg with advanced systems.

'heavy' unit: Ojahee borg with heavy weapons.

Science Unit: Those multi-eyed guys (sorry book not on me right now), rather clever if I recall.

That's about it. No intel, no special forces (although one could argue they are ALL special forces equivalents).

Equipment: Excellent quality firearms, reasonable tanks and aircraft. No mecha, although with ojahee borgs this is likely not necessary.

Excellent against: Stand-up enemies, technological foes, battlefield insurgency. Very good at 'rorkes drift' style operations (re: Mechanoids). One of the most powerful direct-fire army soldiers, only really comparable pound-for-pound with the NGR, warlords, and sovietski (none of which field ENTIRELY borg armies).

Predicted vulnerabilities: Psionic or Magical foes. Doctrine tends to be unsuitable for asymmetric warfare, where a stand-up fight is not always what occurs. Resupply difficult, spare parts hard to acquire (all borg and robot armies suffer from this: The more powerful they are, the more they need to rely on maintenance and repair. The more specialised, the less likely to find fitting components).

[rat_bastard]

I did a poorly written but decently researched breakdown of the various "grunt" classes here.


I came to the conclusion that the Geofront Chi-warrior has the best overall soldier because of the better training, mystic abilities, martial arts and superior equipment.

The CS grunt ended up being a baseline to rank other grunts from, good equipment but not as much useful training as you would hope.

While the megaversal trooper gets perhaps the finest equipment issued on earth to a military their training regimen is terrible.

[rat_bastard]

If I had to do world wide, and include non human nations I think it would be either Kitanni or Dweomer Battle Magi who gets the most effective soldier award. The Standard Kittani soldier is wearing light power armor (and thus has like 5-7 attacks), a rail gun and or a very good laser (and thus can engage at upwards of 4000 feet) and is psychic and backed up by the most powerful magical nation in 100 light years. The Battle Magus is one of the most innovative and unpredictable opponents possible but is limited by engagement range, cost to deploy (a battle magus's kit and training can easily be worth something in the area of 50 million credits) and the overall small size of the Dewomer military.

[ShadowLogan]

Lazlo/New Lazlo.
Why? Simply because they have not been stated out. That should tell us how top dog they are. Especially considering they have not been harassed (attacked) by the CS IINM (FQ being a you leave me alone I leave you alone mentality), who smashed the other two major magic power blocks of Tokeen (recently) and FoM (past, but would go after them again if they knew they where back) in NA. Does the CS know something we don't?

Atlantis has more specialists and diversity I would imagine compared to other militaries. Given the various missions they could recieve, they also have an advantage in organizational-training for a given size task force.

Which includes the Kittani who had a 5year losing war with the Mechanoids (the length of time is an accomplishment in itself per the text), so are in the ML league. When it comes to construction of robotics platforms, they don't seem to be as biased toward their own form like other humanoids, which I think points to them being more open minded and creative in a given situation. They also can't wait for the day when they could be cut loose to operate independtly to conquer new worlds.

I really would not put the CS in the top 5, maybe not even the top 10 on the planet.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Either way: Your megaversal legion is impressive. Let's break it down.

That's about it. No intel, no special forces (although one could argue they are ALL special forces equivalents).

Equipment: Excellent quality firearms, reasonable tanks and aircraft. No mecha, although with ojahee borgs this is likely not necessary.

Excellent against: Stand-up enemies, technological foes, battlefield insurgency. Very good at 'rorkes drift' style operations (re: Mechanoids). One of the most powerful direct-fire army soldiers, only really comparable pound-for-pound with the NGR, warlords, and sovietski (none of which field ENTIRELY borg armies).

Predicted vulnerabilities: Psionic or Magical foes. Doctrine tends to be unsuitable for asymmetric warfare, where a stand-up fight is not always what occurs. Resupply difficult, spare parts hard to acquire (all borg and robot armies suffer from this: The more powerful they are, the more they need to rely on maintenance and repair. The more specialised, the less likely to find fitting components).

I'll repeat it (since you didn't have the book, and I'll add more info) -


The ML recruits entire units of psi and magic based OCC's, along with whatever else they need, and have "hundreds of races" that are members of the unit.

The ML buys whatever equipment they don't manufacture, ie giant Naruni robots and other weapons in this case. Also some weapons from other South American neighbors.

Reasonable tanks and aircraft? Might want to look at those again when you get the chance.

Use multiple types of borgs, and the Destroyer Borg has no prowl penalties along with other advanced stealth systems.

Has a dedicated intelligence command. See above recruitment, or just take the standard ML Trooper, minus the bionics since those are optional, and use the Related and Secondary skills to create a Intelligence Officer.

Has a dedicated logistics command. Each regiment is "self-sufficient"

Has a office in MercTown that specializes in recruiting "unique, inhuman, superhuman, and alien or even supernatural beings (Godlings, Demigods, dragons) from throughout the Megaverse." Contracts are typically "small, specialized military strikes, raids, rescue operations, jail breaks and similar black ops."


The standard ML trooper's skill set leaves something to be desired IMHO, but this was a fairly early book too. Then again they have full access to every skill category (many with bonuses). Easy enough to create a MOS in this way.

To me, just the fact that these borgs are trained in Power Armor Elite makes them pretty dang tough. And they have one of the absolute best PA suits (if not the best) on Rifts Earth.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I see alot of people putting forth the ML as the best, but I have a question, How many of them are on Rifts earth? I always got the impression there wern't that many of them.

(( just a little note, there's a huge difference between staging an ordered retreat and evacuating an area, and a stand up knock down fight or an aggressive military war.))

[Killer Cyborg]

I did a poorly written but decently researched breakdown of the various "grunt" classes here.


I came to the conclusion that the Geofront Chi-warrior has the best overall soldier because of the better training, mystic abilities, martial arts and superior equipment.

The CS grunt ended up being a baseline to rank other grunts from, good equipment but not as much useful training as you would hope.

While the megaversal trooper gets perhaps the finest equipment issued on earth to a military their training regimen is terrible.

You seem to be chalking "Robot Combat: Basic" up as a skill that lets you "ride shotgun" on robots, but it's not.
It lets you pilot and fight in virtually any robot vehicle or suit of power armor.
Any grunt in the CS military can, if the assignment warrants it, be outfitted with a SAMAS or other power armor instead of the usual EBA.

[rat_bastard]

I did a poorly written but decently researched breakdown of the various "grunt" classes here.


I came to the conclusion that the Geofront Chi-warrior has the best overall soldier because of the better training, mystic abilities, martial arts and superior equipment.

The CS grunt ended up being a baseline to rank other grunts from, good equipment but not as much useful training as you would hope.

While the megaversal trooper gets perhaps the finest equipment issued on earth to a military their training regimen is terrible.

You seem to be chalking "Robot Combat: Basic" up as a skill that lets you "ride shotgun" on robots, but it's not.
It lets you pilot and fight in virtually any robot vehicle or suit of power armor.
Any grunt in the CS military can, if the assignment warrants it, be outfitted with a SAMAS or other power armor instead of the usual EBA.

As an amateur, the CS is not stupid enough to put millions of dollars of equipment in the hands of a grunt.

[Dustin Fireblade]

As an amateur, the CS is not stupid enough to put millions of dollars of equipment in the hands of a grunt.

Mauler PA = 3.4 million credits (CS cost)

Can only be piloted at the Basic level.

[Dustin Fireblade]

I see alot of people putting forth the ML as the best, but I have a question, How many of them are on Rifts earth? I always got the impression there wern't that many of them.

(( just a little note, there's a huge difference between staging an ordered retreat and evacuating an area, and a stand up knock down fight or an aggressive military war.))

Well they are based on Rifts Earth...

Book also says they might/could be involved in the world soon.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I see alot of people putting forth the ML as the best, but I have a question, How many of them are on Rifts earth? I always got the impression there wern't that many of them.

(( just a little note, there's a huge difference between staging an ordered retreat and evacuating an area, and a stand up knock down fight or an aggressive military war.))

Well they are based on Rifts Earth...

Book also says they might/could be involved in the world soon.

But that's not an answer? To be more specific, I don't mean "All of the legion is on rifts earth" but instead "How many standing troops are there" Numbers. Not just percentage of a whole.

[Dustin Fireblade]

I see alot of people putting forth the ML as the best, but I have a question, How many of them are on Rifts earth? I always got the impression there wern't that many of them.

(( just a little note, there's a huge difference between staging an ordered retreat and evacuating an area, and a stand up knock down fight or an aggressive military war.))

Well they are based on Rifts Earth...

Book also says they might/could be involved in the world soon.

But that's not an answer? To be more specific, I don't mean "All of the legion is on rifts earth" but instead "How many standing troops are there" Numbers. Not just percentage of a whole.

There is always at least one standing army of 50,000 kept for defense.

Another entire army is usually in the area conducting training.

Parts of another two armies are in the area as well, either prepping for a new mission or returning from. These don't require a full army, so the unit sent is appropriate for the mission.

Generally at least a full third of the ML (around 100,000) will be out on missions (those that require a full army)


So at any given time, roughly 150,000 are going to be in the area.

[Nightmask]

The CS has 'God made it happen' as how they manage to remain supreme. Realistically they should have had little hope of defeating Tolkeen going up against an opponent that they had zero understanding or knowledge of what they could truly unleash in the field

Yeah... I guess battling mages and the supernatural for a hundred years left them completely unprepared for taking out a lone city.

Tolkeen is hardly a 'lone city' and easy pickings for the CS or anyone else. Big difference between picking off the occasional dragon or magic-user and attacking an entire city-state filled with supernatural beings and spell-casters with magicks and gear never before seen by the CS or anyone else. Even the books were clear that the CS vastly underestimated their target and had no idea what they were really getting into.

[Nightmask]

I see alot of people putting forth the ML as the best, but I have a question, How many of them are on Rifts earth? I always got the impression there wern't that many of them.

(( just a little note, there's a huge difference between staging an ordered retreat and evacuating an area, and a stand up knock down fight or an aggressive military war.))

Not sure what the actual numbers given are, but it's the entire Legion minus the ineffectual ones that the Dakar had 'recruited' prior to acquiring the humans and Ojagi that eventually broke their hold over them. But it's the entire Legion plus recruits that they've picked up since then, and that's the same Legion that won all their impressive victories such as holding back the Mechanoids for 23+ hrs for that planetary evacuation.

Unfortunately the stats given in the book just can't represent the kind of skills and capabilities these troopers have, those members must be in close to 15th level and have tactical skills on par with the best the Earth if not the Multiverse has ever produced. They must to have survived and prospered as they did.

[Nightmask]

The CS has 'God made it happen' as how they manage to remain supreme. Realistically they should have had little hope of defeating Tolkeen going up against an opponent that they had zero understanding or knowledge of what they could truly unleash in the field. Remember the fiasco of President Carter's rescue attempt of those hostages at the end of his term because of something as simple as the equipment was woefully inadequate for the desert sands? The CS was even moreso compared to a legion of magic users covering a wide range of magicks that its troops had no idea how to deal with.

So no, the CS is not being underrated when someone says they're inferior to a group like the Megaversal Legion or that its troops couldn't even begin to pull off something like fight off a full-scale Mechanoid invasion that would blanket attack across the entire planet hitting every CS position with vastly superior troops. One is vastly overrating them to suggest that they have what it takes to compete on that playing field. Sure they've survived in the chaos of Rifts Earth and have wins that are good and can be fairly credited to them rather than dismissed as 'God made it happen' but those wins just don't compare against the Megaversal Legion or others.

That may well be the case, and I quite agree. Then again, I believe you may be mistaking the point: the question is looking at individual soldiers and equipment, rather than the organisation as a whole. Given carte blanche numbers and resources, the CS could very likely hold off an invasion of mechanoids also, I'd expect. I also don't buy the story that they had no idea as to what they were getting into at Tolkeen, seeing as they'd been gathering intel for years, and had been getting a lot of practice fighting mages for years before that.

Either way: Your megaversal legion is impressive. Let's break it down.

Standard Soldier: High-quality full conversion borg with advanced systems.

'heavy' unit: Ojahee borg with heavy weapons.

Science Unit: Those multi-eyed guys (sorry book not on me right now), rather clever if I recall.

That's about it. No intel, no special forces (although one could argue they are ALL special forces equivalents).

Equipment: Excellent quality firearms, reasonable tanks and aircraft. No mecha, although with ojahee borgs this is likely not necessary.

Excellent against: Stand-up enemies, technological foes, battlefield insurgency. Very good at 'rorkes drift' style operations (re: Mechanoids). One of the most powerful direct-fire army soldiers, only really comparable pound-for-pound with the NGR, warlords, and sovietski (none of which field ENTIRELY borg armies).

Predicted vulnerabilities: Psionic or Magical foes. Doctrine tends to be unsuitable for asymmetric warfare, where a stand-up fight is not always what occurs. Resupply difficult, spare parts hard to acquire (all borg and robot armies suffer from this: The more powerful they are, the more they need to rely on maintenance and repair. The more specialised, the less likely to find fitting components).

The ML has fought and dealt effectively with Psionic and Magical foes (the Mechanoids for example are on the psionic end), and they've an entire robotic factory to produce what they need. Also the science aliens since you don't have the book handy have the power to repair machinery as a natural power of the race (they're the Men-Rall btw) So as long as you've a few along you don't need to worry about maintenance and repair, they can repair anything (so even a pretty much destroyed enemy's gear can be salvaged and reconstructed for use). I'd have to double-check but I think they list a dedicated full-conversion borg that's part of their elite reconnaissance and lone-soldier style missions.

As I noted in another post though the OCC we see tend to underrate the kinds of skills these characters have, because of the bare bones nature of the listing. The veterans have been planning and engaging in battle campaigns for centuries and dealing with tactical situations that the best Earth generals have never seen and done so very effectively. Just breaking free of their masters required a brutal battle against a superior opponent (personal force fields something like 50 times or more powerful than a Naruni Heavy FF and hand weapons that dealt damage like star ship weapons).

[Nightmask]

I did a poorly written but decently researched breakdown of the various "grunt" classes here.


I came to the conclusion that the Geofront Chi-warrior has the best overall soldier because of the better training, mystic abilities, martial arts and superior equipment.

The CS grunt ended up being a baseline to rank other grunts from, good equipment but not as much useful training as you would hope.

While the megaversal trooper gets perhaps the finest equipment issued on earth to a military their training regimen is terrible.

I don't know where you get that, when they are made up highly trained and experienced military personnel and you don't win those kinds of victories if you can't do a decent job training up the members.

[Killer Cyborg]

The CS has 'God made it happen' as how they manage to remain supreme. Realistically they should have had little hope of defeating Tolkeen going up against an opponent that they had zero understanding or knowledge of what they could truly unleash in the field

Yeah... I guess battling mages and the supernatural for a hundred years left them completely unprepared for taking out a lone city.

Tolkeen is hardly a 'lone city' and easy pickings for the CS or anyone else.

Or course not; it's a smoldering heap of rubble.
It used to be a lone city, though.


Hey, what's the best way to pick up women in Tolkeen?

Spoiler:

A dustbuster

[Killer Cyborg]

I did a poorly written but decently researched breakdown of the various "grunt" classes here.


I came to the conclusion that the Geofront Chi-warrior has the best overall soldier because of the better training, mystic abilities, martial arts and superior equipment.

The CS grunt ended up being a baseline to rank other grunts from, good equipment but not as much useful training as you would hope.

While the megaversal trooper gets perhaps the finest equipment issued on earth to a military their training regimen is terrible.

You seem to be chalking "Robot Combat: Basic" up as a skill that lets you "ride shotgun" on robots, but it's not.
It lets you pilot and fight in virtually any robot vehicle or suit of power armor.
Any grunt in the CS military can, if the assignment warrants it, be outfitted with a SAMAS or other power armor instead of the usual EBA.

As an amateur, the CS is not stupid enough to put millions of dollars of equipment in the hands of a grunt.

They're not amateurs; they're trained professionals.
They're just not ELITE pilots.

Rifts, 52

Equipment available upon assignment: Any weapon types, extra ammunition, Spider-Skull Walker, Enforcer UAR-1, other robot vehicles, hovercraft (especially hovercycle), tank, jet pack, camera, disc recorder, optical enhanncement, and food rations for weeks. Vehicle and equipment repair.

What part of that makes you think that the Grunts wouldn't be trusted with millions of credits of equipment?

[Nightmask]

The CS has 'God made it happen' as how they manage to remain supreme. Realistically they should have had little hope of defeating Tolkeen going up against an opponent that they had zero understanding or knowledge of what they could truly unleash in the field

Yeah... I guess battling mages and the supernatural for a hundred years left them completely unprepared for taking out a lone city.

Tolkeen is hardly a 'lone city' and easy pickings for the CS or anyone else.

Or course not; it's a smoldering heap of rubble.
It used to be a lone city, though.

Tolkeen was no more a lone city than Free Quebec is, and in spite of your smart@$$ comment they needed FIVE books to cover the conflict because the CS wasn't finding some easy prey city-state but a powerful group in its own right that drained a lot of resources to pull off. The Coalition suffered significant set-backs and only a Deus Ex Machina covers them actually winning the war instead of stalemating. The CS had zero experience fighting an actual war against an actual army of magical and supernatural creatures, picking off the occasional small group does nothing to prepare you for large-scale war with them when they're engaged in full scale war planning and setting up defenses and counter-strategies. Seems if anything it's Tolkeeen that's being dismissed as having been far less powerful and underrating it not the CS.

The average Tolkeen soldier had renewable MDC defenses (Armor of Ithlan), renewable ammo supplies (PPE is everywhere), magical means of eliminating the need of food (Sustain), and provide every soldier with a basic range of spells to render them far more dangerous.

Meanwhile what did the CS have? Conventional armor and weapons that required supply lines to keep them armed and repair their finite resources. With mainly green troops (noted explicitly in the text for the war). One's really over-stating the capabilities of the CS when their main tactics seemed to be the zerg rush in the books, and under-stating the capabilities of Tolkeen with the range of flexibility available to every member of their armed forces.

[Killer Cyborg]

The CS has 'God made it happen' as how they manage to remain supreme. Realistically they should have had little hope of defeating Tolkeen going up against an opponent that they had zero understanding or knowledge of what they could truly unleash in the field

Yeah... I guess battling mages and the supernatural for a hundred years left them completely unprepared for taking out a lone city.

Tolkeen is hardly a 'lone city' and easy pickings for the CS or anyone else.

Or course not; it's a smoldering heap of rubble.
It used to be a lone city, though.

Tolkeen was no more a lone city than Free Quebec is

Rifts, 139
The Coalition's immediate oppositino will be the city Tolkeen, that stands on the bones of the pre-rifts city, Minneapolis. Without question, Tolkeen is the largest and most powerful city in the area..

The real opposition that awaits the Coalition is the alien insect race known as the xiticix...

Looks like a city to me.
Not a REAL threat, unlike the Xiticix and other menaces.

Rifts, 149

[i]The Coalition STATE of Free Quebec. The second most powerful member of the CS, after Chi-Town, is Free Quebec... population 1 million... high-tech industrial giant...completely self-supporting...[i]

Seems more like a state than a city.
Unlike Tolkeen.

You want to convince me that they're comparable?
Quote the books.
Show me population statistics and other comparisons based on facts.

they needed FIVE books to cover the conflict

No.
They WROTE five books to cover the conflict.
But they didn't NEED to.
Take a poll, if you don't believe me.

The Coalition suffered significant set-backs and only a Deus Ex Machina covers them actually winning the war instead of stalemating.

Only Deus Ex Machina had them suffering setbacks in the first place, instead of running roughshod over the lone city, then taking a smoke break before heading home.

The CS had zero experience fighting an actual war against an actual army of magical and supernatural creatures

Cite your sources.

[Pepsi Jedi]

The CS has 'God made it happen' as how they manage to remain supreme. Realistically they should have had little hope of defeating Tolkeen going up against an opponent that they had zero understanding or knowledge of what they could truly unleash in the field

Yeah... I guess battling mages and the supernatural for a hundred years left them completely unprepared for taking out a lone city.

Tolkeen is hardly a 'lone city' and easy pickings for the CS or anyone else. Big difference between picking off the occasional dragon or magic-user and attacking an entire city-state filled with supernatural beings and spell-casters with magicks and gear never before seen by the CS or anyone else. Even the books were clear that the CS vastly underestimated their target and had no idea what they were really getting into.

Just a point here. The books were written on purpose, to drag the war out, on both sides of the conflict.

The war 'should' have lasted about 5 minutes.. the flight time for the CS nukes to fly to target. if not for the 'hand of god" giving Tolkeen surprise magical 'Nuke eating' defense structures that have never been mentioned before (( or since for that matter)) the war would have ended before it began.

Conversely the other side says the hand of god was waved again with the bugs up north and the CS army that made it through their lands.

This happened repeatedly through the books. Like it or hate it.

But please remember, it was on purpose by the writers to get the 5 or 6 book arch out. To sell books (( Of which it did masterfuly)).

The war with tolkeen has been debated for 100s of pages. 'Shoulda done this" "Hand of god that" ect... but if you look at it from a product standpoint you can see those moves were scripted from the start to sell the books. Do some or many not make much sense In character, in game? Yeah.

Hell if we were going on "Smart thinking" or "Common sense" the war wouldn't have happened at all. Tolkeen would have bugged out. Or the CS would have taken on other threats first. But that wasn't the point of the books.

[Nightmask]

Just a point here. The books were written on purpose, to drag the war out, on both sides of the conflict.

The war 'should' have lasted about 5 minutes.. the flight time for the CS nukes to fly to target. if not for the 'hand of god" giving Tolkeen surprise magical 'Nuke eating' defense structures that have never been mentioned before (( or since for that matter)) the war would have ended before it began.

Conversely the other side says the hand of god was waved again with the bugs up north and the CS army that made it through their lands.

This happened repeatedly through the books. Like it or hate it.

But please remember, it was on purpose by the writers to get the 5 or 6 book arch out. To sell books (( Of which it did masterfuly)).

The war with tolkeen has been debated for 100s of pages. 'Shoulda done this" "Hand of god that" ect... but if you look at it from a product standpoint you can see those moves were scripted from the start to sell the books. Do some or many not make much sense In character, in game? Yeah.

Hell if we were going on "Smart thinking" or "Common sense" the war wouldn't have happened at all. Tolkeen would have bugged out. Or the CS would have taken on other threats first. But that wasn't the point of the books.

Really need to not be tossing out that 'gee the CS had it won just 5 minutes and some nukes and time for lunch' deal like it's just so certain how the CS had to win. Tolkeen could have done just as much magically to the CS but all you have to do is look at the real world to see that nukes simply aren't such a certain and simple way to win things.

They contaminate the area with radiation, making it unworthy of occupation and the CS is all about expanding and conquering territory when all is said and done.

They make your enemies who've been sitting on the fence change their mind about sitting there. Sure MAYBE the CS could have had a 'okay we nuked them now it's Miller time' victory, but everyone in North America who'd been sitting on the fence would have taken that as reason to attack. Only a fool would sit back and think that they'd be left alone afte seeing Tolkeen nuked like that when Tolkeen wasn't bothering the CS either. Simmering tensions would have been set off and unleashed multiple attacks on the CS from all sides and opponents they couldn't predict because they weren't a single group but were dozens or hundreds of people.

All that massive death at one time could potentially cause a dangerous rift event to occur. You're talking in the case of Tolkeen a city filled with spell-casters and supernatural beings, people who by definition have far more PPE than any average human. Now you've got all that PPE unleashed and doubled in an instant, not a good idea in a place filled with ley lines and nexus points. Practically suicidal. The Coalition's anti-magic but has to at least know the basic fact that death causes a doubling of the magical energies released by the one slain, and how troubling that could be when you do that to hundreds of thousands of spellcasters. Sorry but I just don't find the Coalition to be that suicidally stupid. Contrary to what some might think I credit them with a reasonable level of intelligence and enough basic knowledge of magic to know such instant, massive death would be a bad idea and that if they wanted a win that didn't threaten to backfire on them they'd go with a conventional war.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Just a point here. The books were written on purpose, to drag the war out, on both sides of the conflict.

The war 'should' have lasted about 5 minutes.. the flight time for the CS nukes to fly to target. if not for the 'hand of god" giving Tolkeen surprise magical 'Nuke eating' defense structures that have never been mentioned before (( or since for that matter)) the war would have ended before it began.

Conversely the other side says the hand of god was waved again with the bugs up north and the CS army that made it through their lands.

This happened repeatedly through the books. Like it or hate it.

But please remember, it was on purpose by the writers to get the 5 or 6 book arch out. To sell books (( Of which it did masterfuly)).

The war with tolkeen has been debated for 100s of pages. 'Shoulda done this" "Hand of god that" ect... but if you look at it from a product standpoint you can see those moves were scripted from the start to sell the books. Do some or many not make much sense In character, in game? Yeah.

Hell if we were going on "Smart thinking" or "Common sense" the war wouldn't have happened at all. Tolkeen would have bugged out. Or the CS would have taken on other threats first. But that wasn't the point of the books.

Really need to not be tossing out that 'gee the CS had it won just 5 minutes and some nukes and time for lunch' deal like it's just so certain how the CS had to win. [/quote]

Yes.... the truth just really obliterates your thinking. I know.

Tolkeen could have done just as much magically to the CS

Really? Cite your source on a magical spell as strong as massive flights of nuclear weapons? PLEASE!

but all you have to do is look at the real world to see that nukes simply aren't such a certain and simple way to win things.

Really? Not trying to be crude, but ask the Japanese. They'd disagree with you.. And... prettymuch everyone else on this planet. They seem to work damn well.

They contaminate the area with radiation, making it unworthy of occupation and the CS is all about expanding and conquering territory when all is said and done.

So? In case you didn't notice, (( and you may not have)) nuking tolkeen would have ended the war in seconds. Sure tolkeen would be unworthy of occupation, but there's LOOOOOOOOOOTS of other land on earth to take over. A few cities in the mid west isn't the end all of the universe. The CS took out Tolkeen as a magical threat. Not because they wanted the land. Yes they're sitting on the land now.. so the mages couldn't take it back. Not because it was intrical to their own needs. Their needs were to take out Tolkeen.

As can easily be seen... as they STARTED with nukes. Till the "Hand of god" Took that away. They only invaded when the nukes were nutralized.

They make your enemies who've been sitting on the fence change their mind about sitting there. Sure MAYBE the CS could have had a 'okay we nuked them now it's Miller time' victory, but everyone in North America who'd been sitting on the fence would have taken that as reason to attack.

Based on what? What evidence do you have to support this at all? The one time Nukes have been used, the entire world didn't band together against the US and attack. They shut up and left us alone. For a LONG time. the threat of Nukes keeps the world where we're at now.

You think that all the 'powers' in North America would overcome their hatred and band together to attack the CS? LOL That doesn't even work on the school yard man. They'd go "Ok. the CS is willing to nuke someone that close to them. If we get in a fight, they'll nuke us too"

They certainly wouldn't band together, hold hands and sing cumbyya as they attack.

Only a fool would sit back and think that they'd be left alone afte seeing Tolkeen nuked like that when Tolkeen wasn't bothering the CS either.

LOL you mean like they all banded together and attacked the CS after the war? After the CS had lost all those troops and is in a 'weakened' state? You mean like then? Oh wait that didnt' happen!! That's right.

And if you.. READ the war on tolkeen books. You'll see that the other 'friendly' powers in NA.. were all telling Tolkeen to LEAVE, and not fight the CS. Even Lazlo was all "You guys are being stupid. You're too close to the CS. If you leave there won't be a war!" Tolkeen was all "COME AT ME BRO!!" And the CS... did.

So it's your argument that, had the CS nuked Tolkeen and taken them out in one fair swoop, that the rest of the powers who don't have nukes, would band together in a friendly coalition, to team up on the CS when they hadn't (( in the proposed situation)) lost one troop in the war, and tried to take them on? Risking getting nuked themselves, or feeling the might of the CS war machine?

Simmering tensions would have been set off and unleashed multiple attacks on the CS from all sides and opponents they couldn't predict because they weren't a single group but were dozens or hundreds of people.

Real world doesn't work like that. Again.. look what happened when we nuked Japan. It just doesn't work that way nightmask. Not in the real world.

All that massive death at one time could potentially cause a dangerous rift event to occur. You're talking in the case of Tolkeen a city filled with spell-casters and supernatural beings, people who by definition have far more PPE than any average human. Now you've got all that PPE unleashed and doubled in an instant, not a good idea in a place filled with ley lines and nexus points. Practically suicidal.

So? It's not like you're standing there admiring the view when the nukes go off.

In your world, Nightmask, do you stand at Ground Zero when the nukes go off?

The Coalition's anti-magic but has to at least know the basic fact that death causes a doubling of the magical energies released by the one slain, and how troubling that could be when you do that to hundreds of thousands of spellcasters.

Not that troubleing. As pointed out. the CS DID try and nuke um. The only reason it didn't work was the hand of god taking the nukes into another dimension.

Sorry but I just don't find the Coalition to be that suicidally stupid.

They're not. But your grasp of the game is shaky at best. A few cities taken out with nukes wouldn't have the effect you think it would. Or .. maybe it would, but we don't know. The fact is, the CS DID launch the nukes. It's not like it's impossible. They DID it. It just didn't work so the line could sell 6 books worth of back and forth.

Contrary to what some might think I credit them with a reasonable level of intelligence and enough basic knowledge of magic to know such instant, massive death would be a bad idea and that if they wanted a win that didn't threaten to backfire on them they'd go with a conventional war.

Then explain why the CS first act of the war was to launch multiple nuclear missiles at Tolkeen?

[Nightmask]

Really need to not be tossing out that 'gee the CS had it won just 5 minutes and some nukes and time for lunch' deal like it's just so certain how the CS had to win.

Yes.... the truth just really obliterates your thinking. I know.

The things bouncing around in your head aren't the truth and aren't going to obliterate anything, certainly not anything I've posted. Which is why you drop into the 'attack the poster' fallacies.

[Comrade Corsarius]

um, I really hate to break up a perfectly good argument, but I was really enjoying people's opinions on which particular military fielded the best soldiers in terms of training, equipment, and weapons.

Strategy, size, the ability to hold off mechanoids for 24 hours, and large amounts of nuclear ordinance don't really factor into the equation.

Look at it this way (dons flame-proof helmet). In a stand-up fight, the US would easily defeat us here in Australia. The US army is better equipped, many times larger, has more than three chinook helicopters, and operates tanks that aren't second-hand POS. Same goes for the Navy and Air Forces. HOWEVER, here's the clincher: The average US soldier is fairly well trained, to a basic standard. The average Australian soldier is trained to the same standard as US special forces. The SAS is the best of THAT lot. Does this make the Aussie military superior? heck no! But the argument is on a soldier-for-soldier basis, where here down under we're making the very best of a fairly limited resource, versus the US who can afford to play the quantity vs quality game and use Lanchester's Laws much more effectively.

So the way I see it, is that the CS produces GOOD, benchmark, average soldiers. Their training is good, their weapons are good-to-excellent, they have all-round divisions that can even counter magic and psionics. The RCSG are effectively mages in disguise, anyway (look kids, I'm doing ley line walking and rejuvination ten feet above the ground! It's not magic! It's science! really!)
The NGR produces soldiers of equivalent calibre, but superior equipment and less on the anti-magic front.
It's the little guys who can't afford the big armies that produce the really good stuff though: The FoM and its specialised military mage classes (DEFINITELY quality over quantity when you think of the cost of outfitting and time spent training); Mindwerks and its extremely capable (although tiny and insanely-led) military force. Combine that with who has the high technology and you've got the answer to this argument.

[cornholioprime]

If I had to do world wide, and include non human nations I think it would be either Kitanni or Dweomer Battle Magi who gets the most effective soldier award. The Standard Kittani soldier is wearing light power armor (and thus has like 5-7 attacks), a rail gun and or a very good laser (and thus can engage at upwards of 4000 feet) and is psychic and backed up by the most powerful magical nation in 100 light years. The Battle Magus is one of the most innovative and unpredictable opponents possible but is limited by engagement range, cost to deploy (a battle magus's kit and training can easily be worth something in the area of 50 million credits) and the overall small size of the Dewomer military.

This.

I was going to ask somebody to do a contrast and comparison of the Battle Magus against other units but didn't have the time to type it up this morning.

Yes, Battle Mages are expensive to 'build,' I agree, but then again so are real-life Navy SEALs or Soviet-era Spetsnaz; we are talking about strictly man-to-man fighting capability, yes?