Shorty wrote: Pepsi Jedi wrote: Shorty wrote: Ok I will jump into the threadjack here.
Calling the Rift defense shield handwavium is incorrect. Of course it had never been seen before because no one else had it. If having never been seen before is handwavium then the entire Rifts books are nothing but handwavium for everything after the original main book. Just because a situation hasn't arisen where you see something before doesn't mean that the situation arising for the first time makes the whole thing nothing but author fiat, it is simply a new aspect of the game.
Pepsi Jedi wrote: Actually handwavium is exactly correct. A thing or event, never seen before in the setting, created for the soul purpose of preventing or allowing something in the story that could not be done before or not be defended from before in that setting. A thing or event that magically 'solves' a major problem or barrier in the story.
I.E. a giant magical spell/defense, that was never seen before or sense, never referenced in being in development, that only came into existence when someone launched flights of Nuclear missiles.
It's pretty much the exact definition of handwavium. Right up to the point where it's now destroyed so it's 'out' of existence just as quick as it's in.
If that was true then the black vault entire book is hand wavium. A huge anti magic never touch never use the stuff country having a huge magically defended vault to store the magic items they have but never destroyed? Handwavium.
How does that solve any problem or barrier? Because they keep enemy weapons for study on how to better over come them, doesn't 'solve any unsolvable/impossible problem" That I'm seeing.
Shorty wrote:
Phase world is full of handwavium too by that definition. Phase powers only being used by one race and they can teach others the basics but only they can ever master it?
Again, what problem or challenge is over come with the planet of phase world? What specific unsurmountable problem was overcome? And I seem to remember it being a pretty big book full of races and stuff to play, and with lists of the tech and powers you mention fully able to be used by PC's.
Shorty wrote:
Federation of magic has a tower that teleports itself away as a defense also not seen elsewhere, Dunscon has walls made of brass not seen anywhere before or after, Spirit West has Nunneheni who mysteriously save a large portion of Indians and Buffalo and you never see them elsewhere. I could keep going on and on about things that only show up once all over the Rifts megaverse and are never seen from again
There's a difference between "Unique technology or Magic" and "Technology or Magic created for the soul purpose of overcoming one specific insurmountable or unanswerable problem, never to be seen again."
I don't know about the spirit west stuff you're citing. It was one of the worst rifts books and I don't know it cover to cover, but if the Nunneheni suddenly came up with that kind of thing, then YES. It WOULD be handwavium. It's not like it happens ONCE in a setting and never again. Palladium's pretty bad about using it pretty freely.
The fact you can find other examples of it, doesn't hurt the claim that the Nuke eater spell isn't handwavium. It just points out that Palladium will hand wave, if and when they feel like it.
Shorty wrote:
. Even repeatable technology like laser rifles keep breaking rules themselves for example in Phase world they explicitly state that Rifts Earth is far behind Phase World average in non military items and about 20-30 years behind in military items. Then War Campaign comes out and everything from body armor, to hand weapons, to power armor all blow away Phase world average (And that is a book written by “Power Creep” Carella)
Well. Time passed. Tech caught up? The CS were able to gain access to Phase world stuff as well. And while they didn't go with phase weapons they did have access to "normal" Phase world laser and plasma stuff.
Wouldn't the CS try um out? Stand on a laser shooting range and shoot the phase world rifle. then their rifle and notice the phase world rifle was better... then some CS tech with a screw driver go "ok I'm gonna take it apart and see how it works"
Seems a pretty easy answer for that one. Think about earthh past. When the 'white man" came to the US he had guns and the Native American's didn't do that well against them. That being said, the Native Americans got on board with guns and horses pretty quick and started shooting back.
You also have to remember 'on average' means "ON AVERAGE" Some stuff will be above the curve. One of the best military's on the planet.. is going to be above the curve.
I know that it's not often thought about but if you look in the base book. There are weapons that only do 1d6md. Now... no player characters ever choose THAT gun.. but they're there. They're "Common". When you hold that up against some of the stuff on phase world it does look behind. One of the biggest and two best military's on the planet? Well yeah their stuff's going to be at the top of the bell curve.
Shorty wrote:
Just because you do not like something does not make it handwavium.
When it fits the definition it does. Weither you like it or not. And again as you seem to beleive other wise. One instance of it doesn't mean it can't happen again. And multiple instances of it doesn't change the fact that's what it is.
Shorty wrote:
Just because something hasn’t been seen before doesn’t make it handwavium.
No. Not JUST because of that. That's just a part of it.
Shorty wrote: Also as a side note. Look up handwavium in the dictionary and you will get nothing. It is a completely made up term which for me is defined as “A situation or event in which established canon and rules are gone directly against with a result completely at odds with established expectations and criteria” Your definition may vary.
I already defined mine. *points up*
Shorty wrote:
The bolded part is the best part of your above statement. An extremely powerful magic using and magic based city state coming up with a defense that “Magically” solves a major problem. You just answered your own question right in that sentence.
*shakes head* You're being too literal. More over. You know it. You're trying to dance around words when you know full well the context and meaning.
Shorty wrote: Shorty wrote:
2nd thing about that nuclear missile strike is that the general who ordered it got into deep doggy doo for it. Prosek did not want to nuke Tolkeen because if it had been succesfull then every single power in NA would have aligned themselves together against the CS and not even the CS is powerful enough to fight that many groups at the same time.
Pepsi Jedi wrote: I don't remember this at all. Cite your source please. There were 6 books so I may have missed it but other than Lenwen's stuff I've never heard this at all.
I don’t have any of those books aside from #4 for the cyber knights anymore. They got left behind in a move but it is something I explicitly remember perhaps from book 2. I know that I am supposed to back up my arguments with page and numbers but take it easy on me for this one
I'm not going to call you a liar or anything. It very well might be there, and ___I____ might have missed it.. but II do have all the books and I never remember anything like that. There's no WAY that someone could launch nukes with out Prosek's express permission as an opening slavo of the war. Your thought seems to be that some general just got it in his head to start a war with tolkeen by launching multiple NUCLEAR MISSLES at tolkeen with out the high command's permission and planning?
What? Prosek was woken up and some aid was like "Um... Sir...... That rumbeling you heard... was one of your Generals launching flights of ICBMs at Tolkeen..... did you say he could do that?"
"WHAT?!?!?!? NO!! HOW DARE HE LAUNCH MY NUKES!!"
I don't think that happened. I could be wrong but untill you can back that one up, I don't think it went down that way. I think you're misremembering.
Shorty wrote: Shorty wrote:
3rd thing is Tolkeen lost and honestly they would have lost in the end even without that whole Jericho handwavium (I will get into why this is handwavium momentarily) because they did have finite resources. Almost every (and actually probably every war) has been won by the side with more stuff to throw into the war. Individual battles may be won by the side with less but by and large wars are won by he with the most toys. Yes Tolkeen had ley lines, yes they had nexus points but a person cannot live by magic alone if they could then the city state of Tolkeen would not have had farms and other resource gathering things around the state of them. Even if you go with sustain and such for feeding people they need metal for building their TW stuff, they need cloth, they need rest and they need resupply. All of which can be had from the ley lines and nexus but all of which the CS had as well but in vastly larger quantities. Getting supplies (Metal, crystals, gems etc for TW stuff that Tolkeen built en masse) through a ley line from an outside source requires money because people don’t give up their stuff for free and Money was definitely a finite item for them.
[quote=”Pepsi Jedi”]There's alot more to it than 'just' that, but yes, that was indeed a part of why they lost.
Shorty wrote:
4th thing, if Tolkeen had held out and just held onto a defense then maybe they could have swayed enough potential allies to join them to have won. Inflicted enough casualties on the CS that they would have come up with some excuse to quit but they didn't. They did the sorcerers revenge which not only hurt them terribly in how many resources it used and Tolkeen forces were killed in it but it also showed to the world (and megaverse) that they were not nice people themselves that they were willing to use any amount of force, any alliances no matter how terrible to win and that drove off a lot of the support they did have. And thirdly the revenge also solidified support against them ending the war between CS and Free Quebec and putting more moral support from the CS populace behind the war effor
Pepsi Jedi wrote: This indeed was part of it too. By the time the "Tolkeen war" started, the Tolkeen Generals and such were exactly what the CS feared. Super powerful magical people or things that were diabolical in nature and capable of anything. Weither they were driven to it by the oppression of the CS or if they strolled in there willingly, the point was, they were exactly what the CS ((Rightly)) Feared.
I am not disagreeing with you but just wanted to make an addendum that when the war started most of the Tolkeen generals were still good and perhaps even righteous people. It wasn’t until later on a few years down the road in the war that they were being displaced by the more aggressive and war like evil people. [/quote]
You've stated above that you don't have the books. But I would point you to the write up's on the generals. They're not 'good guys diven bad' for the most part. ((There are a few)) for the most part they're powerful evil beings in charge that are having a party in the war andd live to kill ect.
Shorty wrote: Shorty wrote:
5th thing. The CS does fight against magic users every day and in a lot of situations it is tooth and nail. I would also point out what was mentioned before about the St Louis arch, ruins of old Chicago, FoM doing rather constant attacks against them as well. However small scale small group battles are not the same thing and are not treated the same as a full scale full blown war. It does give experience though which will help in said full scale war, but in this instance both sides had plenty of experience in fighting since the CS had been testing Tolkeen for years in small scale battles.
Pepsi Jedi wrote: Exactly. The CS was in constant battles. Were they full scale Nation sized battles? not all of them. But they were constantly honing that edge. They didn't just sit around. They did fight all the things that have been mentioned and have had wars against the Federation of Magic.
Tolkeen, as a city/force, has not. While the CS has harried them at times they had never done battle with the CS in that same nature. They haven't had units out, rotating to front lines of a dozen different battle zones and expansion sites for 100 years.
I'm not saying the tolkeen people couldn't fight. They really could. Better than alot of folks. But fighting in a group of 5 to 10, annd fighting a war against hundreds of thousands if not more, is vastly different.
Tolkeen was gang type wars, and the baddest gang in the world would fall in moments against a military coming to kick their teeth in.
Someone get on the horn and tell the Mujahideen that they stand no chance against the Russians. Also someone tell the Taliban that they stand no chance against the most powerful military in the world and that they should just give up fighting after all if they haven’t won in 10 years….. Guerilla warfare throughout history usually doesn’t “Win” wars in the conventional sense of winning but it does eventually make the bigger guys get tired and go home.
But that's not what you have here is it? The CS didn't try and "Drive out the mages and let the non mages live on in tolkeen unmolested" did they?
No.. They didn't.
They went in to kill um all. Man woman and child. they STARTED the war with Nukes. That didn't work so they had to go in the hard way. At the war's end they're not letting the tolkeen people live in peace now that the military is done. They're systematically leveling the entire city state. Looting it andd knocking down every single building. Every single brick.
That's a different sort of war. That's the 'bomb them into the stone age' sort of war that Guerilla tactics don't work all that well for. the US could nuke the taliban till they glow and take out everything around them but that's not the type of war we're fighting is it?
It's different from what went on in tolkeen.
Shorty wrote:
Tolkeen should have done Guerilla warfare (and indeed did) and were very successful at it.
Tolkeen should have just left. There'd been no war at all. But Guerilla war wouldn't work when the other side is just going to level your entire city state.
Shorty wrote:
Their biggest loss came from their biggest win and was also the turning point in their final loss. That was when they did a full scale attack against the CS in Sorcerers Revenge. While they did win that battle they seriously got hurt badly by the CS far more than any other engagement that they won.
They also made deals with army's of unholy monsters and demons to do it. Which proved the CS's point and dried up most of the good will that Tolkeen MIGHT have had for being the poor victim in all of it. they proved the CS's fears to be correct. That they were a dangerous collection of magic users that delt with demons to kill humans.
That was colossally stupid.
Shorty wrote: Shorty wrote:
And finally Jericho and why it is handwavium while the shield defense isn’t. The shield defense while never having been mentioned before is a plausible use of game mechanics.
Pepsi Jedi wrote: It's really not. It was a simple and badly written excuse for why the war wasn't over in 5 minutes. If you take out that ONE SINGLE THING. The war.... would be over in 5 minutes and there wouldn't be 6 books of back and forth.
It really is not handwavium to use something never seen before. Rifts books are replete with things that “Haven’t been seen before” For another example to go along with my previous ones. Go ask Tarnow how their magical transmuting crystal is getting along.
No. It's handwavium when that one thing never seen before is only there in responce to a problem that had no way of being solved with out it. And then, after that one single problem is resolved, goes away.
New stuff pops up in rifts all the time.
A super magical shield that stopped nukes from hitting a city, when no one else on rifts earth has ever launched nukes, and no one's ever mentioned it before.. and works 100% first time to stop an insurmountable problem...... Is handwavium.
1) New. Never seen before. (( it's part of it))
2) Never being shown as being developed.
3) "Solves" a problem that with out it, had no possible solution.
4) Allows the 'story' to move past that 'Impossible' point and continue on with out effort or cost to the subject of the hand wave.
5) After the problem was solved, dissapears from the story never to be seen or heard from again. (( insured by Tolkeen being defeated, and razzed to the ground and the 'technology' (magic) lost))
When you add up all that. It IS handwavium. Being new and never seen before is one aspect of it, but not alll. As you've said (( and I agree)) new stuff pops up all the time. But this was different, for the reasons stated.
Shorty wrote: Shorty wrote: Shifters can open rifts, Rifts are openings into other planes/dimensions/whatever. Tolkeen was built on three Mega Nexuses with smaller nexuses interspersed throughout. Having a defense of people able to open a giant (hopefully controlled) rift over the city is perfectly plausible by written game mechanics. Jericho however went directly against written established rules for an existing game mechanic. His entire march through the Hivelands being (mostly) unmolested
Pepsi Jedi wrote: This part ins't true. He lost one in 4 or one in 3 men if memory serves. Alot of people that hate the Holmes thing, like to cite that 'Oh he made it through the hivvelands with out being bothered all that much"
As I've pointed out before in other threads, this isn't the case. they had to button up in their apc's and tanks and walkers and stuff and slowly make the trip through. All the while hearing their friends being killed and ripped to shreads and under orders not to do anything to help them. Wondering the entire way if they were next, and if they were next, knowing that they'd die and the armies wouldn't help them. Stuffed up in APC's and robot vehicles. unable to go out side. Peeing and crapping in buckets and emptying it out ports... eating mre's. unable to move around. unable to bathe. living in the fear of death 24/7. All on a theory of a man they trusted.
I'm not saying the change in the bugs behavior was anything other than a plot device. I'm not. what I am saying is people hand wave it in their descriptions as if it was no big deal. 25 to 35% of the armies died in that one action. They were not 'unmolested' in any way. Mostly or otherwise. They were shredded and bloodied and lost one in four to three in ten men. that's pretty big losses.
The horror of that trip is lostly ignored due to the results.. but that trip probably messed up those troops for life. Granted they did live to join the final battle but that had to be harrowing on a level that is largely ignored.
I never said his trip was easy. I never said he didn’t lose men.
But you did. You said "Mostly unmolested' Which is NOT what it was. "(Mostly) unmolested" means they traveled through and wern't messed with that much. Loosing a third of your entire army isn't "(Mostly) unmolested" by any definition. The way you wrote it was as if it wasn't that big a deal. You even have 'mostly' set apart to help show that you think it was (pardon the circular definition here.) MOSTLY, unmolested.
Shorty wrote: What I did say is that his entire trip through was a direct slap in the face of established rules from the Xiticix book. Going slowly will help yes. Not fighting back will help yes. But if you are confronted by the Xiticix and you do not leave on a direct path out then they will tear you to shreds.
One in three people dead with no violence isn't exactly a cake walk.
Shorty wrote: The book even says that the more of you there are the MORE likely you are to be attacked as a direct threat.
And they were attacked. It was only after they didn't fight back and just let the bugs kill and kill annd kill, did the bugs bbasicly... get bored and realize after they'd killed thousands of men.. that they wern't a threat.. as they wern't fighting back. In grand terms. the CS was "playing dead".
Shorty wrote:
And if there is not enough of them there to get the job done more and more and more will coming until there are literally millions of them tearing at your noisey, clanking, person filled metal things invading their territory and every one of said invaders is DEAD.
That part was changed. *nods* I fully admit that. It was changed. And I can easily see how many think that's hand waving it. That's fine. In this case I think it was more "Noone's tried this techniquic and after losing thousands of men, it worked. (( wasn't like it was free of danger or cost))
But it CAN be seen as Handwavium
Shorty wrote: Shorty wrote:
is in direct disagreement with every single published thing that Palladium has put out about the Xiticix. Both in how few forces he lost, how few fights they were in how much distance they travelled and how long they were in the Hivelands is completely 100% against established lore for the Xiticix.
Pepsi Jedi wrote: Again. I'm not saying it wasn't a plot device, but it was not the "No big deal" you (( and many others that don't like it)) are making it out to be.
And at least it was explained in the books. Why it worked and how. It wasn't just a 'Oh crap. Nukes are incoming. Open the super secret, never seen before or even mentioned in any way shield that does nothing but suck up the nukes that were just launched at us, defense!!!" The explanation on the how and why the march through the hivelands was explained. (( You may not LIKE it. And I know many don't. But there was 'an' explanation. ))
Actually that defense of Tolkeen would suck up an incoming anything not just nukes. It isn’t that I don’t like the explanation given for how Holmes was able to march through Xiticix territory it is that they directly went against a set of rules and precedent that they had established in one of their most recent books. Personally I really like the STORY of how they went through. But the stench of the crap coming off of how they did it is just too bad for me to truly enjoy.
You're not alone in that. Many people didn't like that part. Many people DO concider that part a hand wave. I personally can see thhe logic to it, but it WAS a hand wave in a way.
Shorty wrote:
Also I did not say it was no big deal.
Yeah you did. You said "(mostly) Unmolested"
Shorty wrote: I did not say that the soldiers didn’t suffer.
"(mostly) Unmolested"
Shorty wrote: Nor that they didn’t march into a literal hell for their devotion not to the CS but to the man leading them.
In which you account for it all as being "(mostly) Unmolested"
Shorty wrote: It was an amazing act of desperation and faith. It is just too much handwavium for me. (using my definition of handwavium) And I will not spend time defending a plot device that I thought sucked, no matter how good the story of it may have been. No more than I would expect you to defend the Tri-Rift shield defense that you despise as your version of handwavium.
I'm not saying you need to defend it. If you go back. I just point out that you, like many that don't like that aspect. Play it down. "Oh the army went through the hive lands with almost no losses and showed up to save the day" or... in your case. "They did the march (mostly) umolested" When that's far from the truth. That's like saying the Jews were mostly unmolested in WWII because so many of them lived to see the end of it. It totally ignores the reality of it and the horror of the situation that was endured, to try and get to the point you don't like about it.
I'm not even saying that it wasn't handwavium. It was in a way. But the way you and some others that share your opinion present it, isn't flush with the fact of the item being complained about.
Shorty wrote: Shorty wrote:
In summation, Tolkeen IMO still would have lost but the method of their losing was bull pucky. CS had more resources, more allies, more public will, and more drive to win.
Pepsi Jedi wrote: Well i won't disagree. As I've pointed out before, the war went back and forth the way it did, to sell books. To make it 'Entertaining'. It had very little to do with how a 'real' war would be waged, but was done so largely on an almost 'Movie setting' type of thing. One side does thhis... the other side counters with that... then they do this!! and the other side counters with that...... then they come back with THIS!!!!!!! That the other side counters with this other thing!! OH NOES!!! Then suddenly the guys they thought dead.... are suddenly back from the dead to ride to the rescue to save the day!!
It was for Entertainment and to sell books. There ---- was---- hand waving on both sides. BOTH SIDES. But the length of the war and the back and forth nature of it, and it's being unrealistic, was to 1) Entertain and 2) Sell books. if you look at it from that standpoint.... while it might not "make sense" it could be excused for the 'reason' it was like that.
Back and forth is the nature of most large scale confrontations. There is very few large scale confrontations that are a cut and dried victory for one side. Actually I can’t even think of one war that didn’t involve some back and forth. (Except for the first gulf war but there is an exception to every rule) So that is completely realistic. After all just look at Afghanistan, we are still there ten years later.
You keep bringing that up but it's false. We're not at war with Afghanistan. It's not a conventional war. If it was, we'd be done a long time ago. We're not just blowing them up. We're having to go in among innocents and find the terrorists. That's alot harder to do.
AND.. it's --------nothing----------- like the War with Tolkeen.
Shorty wrote: The most powerful military on the planet, some of the most well trained soldiers on the planet (I am including everyone here, US, Canada, Aussies etc) against a single country and we are still fighting every day.
We're not fighting the country. We're fighting the insurgant terrorists in the country hiding among the innocent. We can't just 'bomb their base' and be done with it.
Shorty wrote: (This comment is not meant as a positive or a negative about the reasons for going there or remaining there. It is simply an example of how a very small group of people can cause a large group of people, no matter how well trained, an endless amount of trouble. Please do not take it as anything more than said example)
And if the CS had any interest in keeping the people of tolkeen alive, or caring about them in any way, or even wannting the city intact when they were done you might havve a point.
As the CS's purpose was total obliteration of every building, and the killing of everyone there. You do not.
They aren't the same thing. Hard to do the guerilla war when there's just an empty smoking crater to hide in when the other side is done.
Shorty wrote: In the end though we will all look at the story and decide on our own what we think is good and what we think stinks. And we shall carry those opinions with us with little chance of changing the minds of others or others changing our minds because in a situation like this where just the basic outline is given of the confrontation with very few closely examined situations our own thoughts about “how things should work” will fill in the rest for us.
Have a nice thread
That part is at least largely true.