Top militaries soilder for soilder wise .. your opinions ?

[Pepsi Jedi]

OK - one thing that needs to be said...again...

The question was which army on Rifts earth had the best soldiers on a soldier for soldier basis. Size of the entire military is irrelevant. It's about the average grunt in the army compared to the average grunt in the other armies.

To that end, I submit that it's the Juicer Army for Liberation.

Not all of the JLA are high powered juicers. A medium to large percentage are mercs hanging out with the juicers. And while juicers are pretty BA, they're all gonna be dead in a few years. lol.

Re: Tolkeen and its effectiveness - I will not ever understand how they convinced warlocks to imprison major elementals into those big power armor things.

Well this sort of circles back around to "What they'd become" in that their generals were by and large evil beings of magical power that were ready to brook with massive fishy tadpole demons to win. Enslaving elementals wasn't a big deal for them and putting them into the power armor things kept them from just meandering off and let them channel their power and ability into a more uniform 'unit' to be used conventionally. When you think it's ok to hire on an army of Diobolical evil demons to fight with you, emprisioning some alien elementals isn't that big a deal.

I'll also never understand why it was done. A major elemental has over 10K MDC - why would you trap it in something that has only 1-2K? Also, why weren't earth elementals used to absolutely ruin logistics, air elementals used to ruin air travel, and water elementals used to ruin water travel?

This one's alot easier. While the elementals are pretty good stat wise, in the Palladium universe... they're so "Alien" in mindset.. that they come across pretty stupid in human ways of thinking. They don't see the world like we do and don't respond to it the same way we do. This is pointed out more than once in the books. At one point air elementals were sent to patrol the skies in an area and they did so and ignored ground troops moving right below them because they never even thought of reporting the ground forces because that's not why they're there. In another part it points out that the elementals can NOT tell the difference between Tolkeen troops and CS troops. Or even the difference between ALIVE and DEAD troops of either side.

Now.. that doesn't 'honestly' make the elementals "Dumb" They just think and perceive things different. That being said.. the "Result" is that they're pretty FUNCTIONALLY dumb.

"Hey. SICK THOSE GUYS RIGHT THERE!!" And the warlock points... the elemental is awesome at.

"Go get the CS troops" Would leave the elemental with out a clue. As pointed out they can't tell the difference between CS and Tolkeen troops (( even with the CS troops all looking the same)) or even "Alive or dead". So their usage had to be extremely micromanaged. If the Warlock isn't there telling them exactly what to do, they were as much a danger to the tolkeen troops as the CS.

"Kill anything that comes down this street" Awesome.

"Patrol this block for enemies" Impossible.

Added to that, the number of warlocks seems to be very small. Not long back when addressing this with someone else. I think the number was "Under 30"?

[Nightmask]

As a side note and general question. Isn't the ML Found in the South America books which are considered quasi canon? Due to the gross over powering of things in those two books? Or am I mis remembering?

I've discussed those books with Kev and I've never once heard him refer to them as quasi-canonical.

Not. Once.

Also, he signed off on those books as they are, so if you mean they're overpowered and you don't like them, well that's up to you, but that in no way renders them non-canonical.

/Sub

Wow.. week or two later.

Go check your game master's guide, where it suggests you downgrade the stuff from the books by 25% across the board because of how over powered they are.

If the company has to go back and suggest a 25% power reduction across the board due to it, it is a bit more than "i don't like it". Palladium's not going to reprint. They don't have print run's big enough or demand enough to necessitate the reprinting of the books done a decade ago. But when the stuff is collected in the GM books, and the stuff from SA is pulled aside and singled out and suggested to be reduced by one fourth and none of the other books published have that done, it's telling.

Likewise, if you look in the forums here, the books are pretty much universally held up as the glaring example of out of control power creep and how they are much more powerful than others and they're panned for it. It comes up in every thread where the SA books are discussed in any detail.

*shrugs* But do as you will.

None of which makes the South America books not canonical. Suggesting if you find the books too powerful that you adjust them down somewhat doesn't make them any less canon than suggesting that if you don't like Glitter Boys don't use them makes the main Rifts book not canon.

By the same token the opinions of this board are completely worthless when it comes to deciding whether or not a book is canon, unless Palladium explicitly states something is no longer considered canon (like the original Robotech books are considered with the release of the new books) it's still canon. Some fans may reject the books because they're 'too powerful' but that's individual fan opinions and has no bearing on anything but their particular game.

There are also groups in the South America book that have origins that justify them having tech worthy of Phase World or better (Megaversal Legion and Cibola in particular) and such a reduction would be pretty ridiculous to reduce them down to the level of the CS or lower. That's a lot less to do with thinking the books are 'too powerful' and more to do with 'but I want the CS to be the most powerful around'.

[Killer Cyborg]

Suggesting if you find the books too powerful that you adjust them down somewhat doesn't make them any less canon than suggesting that if you don't like Glitter Boys don't use them makes the main Rifts book not canon.

Can you cite the place where Kevin made that statement?

And with South America, it was more than just a suggestion that GMs make them less powerful: there were specific percentages listed:
RGMG 112
When CJ Carella wrote the South America books... I foolishly gave the author too much leeway and latitude in his writing. I was trying to give the new guy freedom and let him run with his own ideas.
Well, CJ is a heck of a writer and has come up with some excellent ideas, characters, places and gizmos. HOWEVER, the power level of his early books (the two South America titles included, IS unbalanced and overpowering compared to the rest of Rifts Earth. While these items are pretty limited to isolated geographic locations (namely South America), they can still be a problem, especially if the GM brings South American weapons, armor, vehicles and magic into North America or other parts of the world.
To resolve that, I suggest the following modifications:
Reduce Mega-Damage by 25% (i.e., a die or two less), range by 20%, bonuses by half, and payload by 20%. That evens them out nicely.

The South America books remain canon, in that they have not been reprinted with these reduced stats (to the best of my knowledge: when was the last printing of SA?), but the game creator's assessment that the stuff in those books is "unbalanced" and "overpowering," as well as that it was "foolish" to have allowed those stats to see print.
That's not the same as his general "if you don't like it, don't use it" kind of comment.
It's a specific condemnation of those stats, with specific instructions on how to "resolve" the "problems" that the stats cause.

Ultimately, the stats are in a semi-official limbo, where it is not accurate to claim that they are correct or incorrect.
But let's look at both views for a moment and compare:

IF you use the reduced stats that the game creator suggests, then the Megaversal Troopers are no longer powerful enough to outclass the CS, based on the comparison combat example that I posted earlier.
So the Megaversal Troopers probably cannot be considered to be the top soldiers.

IF, on the other hand, you use the original stats, then they might be the top soldiers... but considering the fact that they are officially "unbalanced" and "overpowering," that's kind of a meaningless victory even if they DO get it.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I'd like to thank KC for taking the time to look that up and quote it.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'd like to thank KC for taking the time to look that up and quote it.

You're welcome.

[Nightmask]

Suggesting if you find the books too powerful that you adjust them down somewhat doesn't make them any less canon than suggesting that if you don't like Glitter Boys don't use them makes the main Rifts book not canon.

Can you cite the place where Kevin made that statement?

Since when does Kevin have to make such a statement about something that's completely self-evident? 'Hey look, I didn't tell you that any of these books are canon in the preface so none of them are.' Such nonsense. When you publish something it's canon unless they come along and actively deny it at a later point, and saying something can be reduced doesn't mean the book becomes non-canon and if they republish with reduced stats that really hasn't rendered the book non-canon. One is quite free to use the original book and original stats just fine without it being not considered canon.

[Subjugator]

Wow.. week or two later.

Just got here.

Go check your game master's guide, where it suggests you downgrade the stuff from the books by 25% across the board because of how over powered they are.

I saw that. I wouldn't say that renders them quasi-canonical. I'd say that it does highlight them as being unbalanced in the overall scheme of things.

If the company has to go back and suggest a 25% power reduction across the board due to it, it is a bit more than "i don't like it".

Yes it does, but it doesn't go anywhere near removing it from canon.

Palladium's not going to reprint. They don't have print run's big enough or demand enough to necessitate the reprinting of the books done a decade ago.

Honest question - how many books do you think they average in a print run? Not being critical, but I'm wondering what people who don't have the same access I do generally assume to be an ordinary print run.

But when the stuff is collected in the GM books, and the stuff from SA is pulled aside and singled out and suggested to be reduced by one fourth and none of the other books published have that done, it's telling.

Yep.

Likewise, if you look in the forums here, the books are pretty much universally held up as the glaring example of out of control power creep and how they are much more powerful than others and they're panned for it. It comes up in every thread where the SA books are discussed in any detail.

*shrugs* But do as you will.

Now that I know what you're talking about, I can see your point. I don't agree with how far you took it, but I can see it, and I don't even have to squint to see it.

/Sub

[Crucible]

Suggesting if you find the books too powerful that you adjust them down somewhat doesn't make them any less canon than suggesting that if you don't like Glitter Boys don't use them makes the main Rifts book not canon.

Can you cite the place where Kevin made that statement?

Since when does Kevin have to make such a statement about something that's completely self-evident? 'Hey look, I didn't tell you that any of these books are canon in the preface so none of them are.' Such nonsense. When you publish something it's canon unless they come along and actively deny it at a later point, and saying something can be reduced doesn't mean the book becomes non-canon and if they republish with reduced stats that really hasn't rendered the book non-canon. One is quite free to use the original book and original stats just fine without it being not considered canon.

You DO know that THIS IS Kevin's company right? Just making sure here...

[Killer Cyborg]

Suggesting if you find the books too powerful that you adjust them down somewhat doesn't make them any less canon than suggesting that if you don't like Glitter Boys don't use them makes the main Rifts book not canon.

Can you cite the place where Kevin made that statement?

Since when does Kevin have to make such a statement...

Since you implied that he had made such a statement.

[Nightmask]

Suggesting if you find the books too powerful that you adjust them down somewhat doesn't make them any less canon than suggesting that if you don't like Glitter Boys don't use them makes the main Rifts book not canon.

Can you cite the place where Kevin made that statement?

Since when does Kevin have to make such a statement about something that's completely self-evident? 'Hey look, I didn't tell you that any of these books are canon in the preface so none of them are.' Such nonsense. When you publish something it's canon unless they come along and actively deny it at a later point, and saying something can be reduced doesn't mean the book becomes non-canon and if they republish with reduced stats that really hasn't rendered the book non-canon. One is quite free to use the original book and original stats just fine without it being not considered canon.

You DO know that THIS IS Kevin's company right? Just making sure here...

Right, so anything that's printed other than in the Rifters would have to be considered canon unless said otherwise. After all he signed off on the books that came out, so approval of everything as canon is implied. Outside of the Rifter which explicitly states you need a disclaimer that it is considered canon to accept it as such the books carry the inherent status of canon and don't require each and every book have a 'this is canon' attached to it.

[Nightmask]

Suggesting if you find the books too powerful that you adjust them down somewhat doesn't make them any less canon than suggesting that if you don't like Glitter Boys don't use them makes the main Rifts book not canon.

Can you cite the place where Kevin made that statement?

Since when does Kevin have to make such a statement...

Since you implied that he had made such a statement.

At no point did I imply that. I've no idea how you thought that but it's all generated in your head and has no basis in anything I said.

[Killer Cyborg]

Suggesting if you find the books too powerful that you adjust them down somewhat doesn't make them any less canon than suggesting that if you don't like Glitter Boys don't use them makes the main Rifts book not canon.

Can you cite the place where Kevin made that statement?

Since when does Kevin have to make such a statement...

Since you implied that he had made such a statement.

At no point did I imply that. I've no idea how you thought that but it's all generated in your head and has no basis in anything I said.

You compared two things:
1. Kevin suggesting that the SA books be adjusted down.
2. (unspecified person) suggesting that the GBs not be used.

I naturally assumed that you were comparing two things of something approaching equal weight:
1. The author of the game and owner of the company officially stating that certain things were too powerful, and that they should be toned down in a specific way.
2. The author of the game and owner of the company informally stating that certain elements of the game should be ignored if desired.

Because that's what the words that you wrote would logically mean.

I had no idea that you were instead comparing:
a) The author of the game and owner of the company officially stating that certain things were too powerful, and that they should be toned down in a specific way.
b) Any random person giving an unofficial opinion that certain elements of the game should be ignored if desired.

So what happened was just a simple miscommunication based on the lack of clarity in your post.
I hereby apologize for giving you and your argument too much credit, and treating what you wrote as if it had any kind of actual support in any of the books, and/or from any official people at Palladium.

[Killer Cyborg]

You DO know that THIS IS Kevin's company right? Just making sure here...

Right, so anything that's printed other than in the Rifters would have to be considered canon unless said otherwise. After all he signed off on the books that came out, so approval of everything as canon is implied. Outside of the Rifter which explicitly states you need a disclaimer that it is considered canon to accept it as such the books carry the inherent status of canon and don't require each and every book have a 'this is canon' attached to it.

Exactly.
So when the SA books came out, they were canon.
And when Kevin stated that this was a foolish mistake on his part, and suggested that the stats should be adjusted down (as per the paragraphs I cited earlier), that was also canon.

So in the canon of the game, the SA stats were a foolish mistake that should be adjusted downward.

[Nightmask]

Since you implied that he had made such a statement.

At no point did I imply that. I've no idea how you thought that but it's all generated in your head and has no basis in anything I said.

You compared two things:
1. Kevin suggesting that the SA books be adjusted down.
2. (unspecified person) suggesting that the GBs not be used.

I naturally assumed that you were comparing two things of something approaching equal weight:
1. The author of the game and owner of the company officially stating that certain things were too powerful, and that they should be toned down in a specific way.
2. The author of the game and owner of the company informally stating that certain elements of the game should be ignored if desired.

Because that's what the words that you wrote would logically mean.

I had no idea that you were instead comparing:
a) The author of the game and owner of the company officially stating that certain things were too powerful, and that they should be toned down in a specific way.
b) Any random person giving an unofficial opinion that certain elements of the game should be ignored if desired.

So what happened was just a simple miscommunication based on the lack of clarity in your post.
I hereby apologize for giving you and your argument too much credit, and treating what you wrote as if it had any kind of actual support in any of the books, and/or from any official people at Palladium.

Such a range of derisiveness and insult in that little bit, you must put in a lot of practice at it to be so skilled.

[Subjugator]

You made an implication. The English language has rules. Those rules apply to the formations of words we call sentences. When you use a pronoun, it applies to the most recently used proper noun, or occasionally, the object of the phrase being used if it explicitly directs one to a subject that is different but known.

That you failed to follow the rules of grammar does not indicate a failing on the part of KC. It indicates a failing on your part. You constructed the faulty sentence and the flaw contained therein communicated incorrect information. It is you that is responsible for saying what you mean. It is not up to us to try and determine what it is you mean when you say something that is not the same as what you mean.

/Sub

[Pepsi Jedi]

*Nods to Sub*

Word!

[Nightmask]

You made an implication. The English language has rules. Those rules apply to the formations of words we call sentences. When you use a pronoun, it applies to the most recently used proper noun, or occasionally, the object of the phrase being used if it explicitly directs one to a subject that is different but known.

That you failed to follow the rules of grammar does not indicate a failing on the part of KC. It indicates a failing on your part. You constructed the faulty sentence and the flaw contained therein communicated incorrect information. It is you that is responsible for saying what you mean. It is not up to us to try and determine what it is you mean when you say something that is not the same as what you mean.

/Sub

So you're saying I need to dumb down my posts so they're easier to understand, because some can't handle them. I'll try to keep that in mind, difficult though it might be to dumb things down like that but I'll try for those who can't keep up.

[Subjugator]

So you're saying I need to dumb down my posts so they're easier to understand, because some can't handle them. I'll try to keep that in mind, difficult though it might be to dumb things down like that but I'll try for those who can't keep up.

Wrong.

I'm saying you need to learn to write your native language correctly so that the words that you use mean the same thing that you're thinking. Evidently it is currently beyond your capacity to say what you actually mean, since you think that doing so means you have to dumb down your post.

It is not reflective of a failure on our part if you say something you don't mean, and we, parsing your words exactly as they are written, see something that means something you do not mean. The problem with your meaning not being understood has its root where you failed to actually *SAY* what you mean. The dereliction in that case is yours.

/Sub

[Killer Cyborg]

You made an implication. The English language has rules. Those rules apply to the formations of words we call sentences. When you use a pronoun, it applies to the most recently used proper noun, or occasionally, the object of the phrase being used if it explicitly directs one to a subject that is different but known.

That you failed to follow the rules of grammar does not indicate a failing on the part of KC. It indicates a failing on your part. You constructed the faulty sentence and the flaw contained therein communicated incorrect information. It is you that is responsible for saying what you mean. It is not up to us to try and determine what it is you mean when you say something that is not the same as what you mean.

/Sub

So you're saying I need to dumb down my posts so they're easier to understand, because some can't handle them. I'll try to keep that in mind, difficult though it might be to dumb things down like that but I'll try for those who can't keep up.

Not so much.
It's more that your (mis)usage of the Enlish language made your actual message different from your intended message.

Unless you care to diagram your sentence, to demonstrate that the three of us have it wrong, and your message meant something else...?
Don't dumb it down- we've all got a fairly good grasp on how words and grammar work.

[Nightmask]

So you're saying I need to dumb down my posts so they're easier to understand, because some can't handle them. I'll try to keep that in mind, difficult though it might be to dumb things down like that but I'll try for those who can't keep up.

Wrong.

I'm saying you need to learn to write your native language correctly so that the words that you use mean the same thing that you're thinking. Evidently it is currently beyond your capacity to say what you actually mean, since you think that doing so means you have to dumb down your post.

It is not reflective of a failure on our part if you say something you don't mean, and we, parsing your words exactly as they are written, see something that means something you do not mean. The problem with your meaning not being understood has its root where you failed to actually *SAY* what you mean. The dereliction in that case is yours.

/Sub

I grasp my native language just fine, if you or someone else fails to comprehend them that's really not my problem as I've no way of knowing what part of said language your or someone else has failed to comprehend. Trying to pass your failure to comprehend off onto me is reflective of problems on your end not mine.

In any case this is decidedly off topic and approaching violating the TOS so I'm done with it.

[Subjugator]

You failed to write what you meant. You used pronouns incorrectly, which identified them as being the subject of a previously used proper noun and then claimed that you didn't do so. Now you claim that this is our fault.

Learn the rules of grammar if you want to be understood.

/Sub

[Nightmask]

You failed to write what you meant. You used pronouns incorrectly, which identified them as being the subject of a previously used proper noun and then claimed that you didn't do so. Now you claim that this is our fault.

Learn the rules of grammar if you want to be understood.

/Sub

I know the rules of grammar just fine, deliberately misconstruing things in order to distract from the actual point with an attack on myself on the other hand is something beyond my ability to control.

[Mack]

How about we return to the topic at hand?

If you really wish to continue, I'm sure somewhere on the Internet is a 'Grammarian Warfare' forum.

[Nightmask]

Sorry but there's no way the Megaversal Legion had technology that was only as good as the CS, they were Phase World level technology not Rifts Earth level in origin. You don't hold up to the hordes of the Mechanoids or overthrow masters whose personal technology gave them the durability and destructive firepower of a starship with CS level technology. Skill and tactical genius can only carry you so far you need the technology to make it succeed.

[Crucible]

Sorry but there's no way the Megaversal Legion had technology that was only as good as the CS, they were Phase World level technology not Rifts Earth level in origin. You don't hold up to the hordes of the Mechanoids or overthrow masters whose personal technology gave them the durability and destructive firepower of a starship with CS level technology. Skill and tactical genius can only carry you so far you need the technology to make it succeed.

Tell that to the Gurkha's and to the Viet Cong

[Nightmask]

Sorry but there's no way the Megaversal Legion had technology that was only as good as the CS, they were Phase World level technology not Rifts Earth level in origin. You don't hold up to the hordes of the Mechanoids or overthrow masters whose personal technology gave them the durability and destructive firepower of a starship with CS level technology. Skill and tactical genius can only carry you so far you need the technology to make it succeed.

Tell that to the Gurkha's and to the Viet Cong

Not really relevant, the Viet Cong for example weren't trying to hold off people who were using weapons that could just sterilize the area. If nuclear weapons had been used against them they'd have been helpless because they simply hadn't the weapons to deal with weapons on that scale. If you don't have what it takes to deal with someone on a particular scale even marginally you're going to lose.

[Killer Cyborg]

Sorry but there's no way the Megaversal Legion had technology that was only as good as the CS, they were Phase World level technology not Rifts Earth level in origin. You don't hold up to the hordes of the Mechanoids or overthrow masters whose personal technology gave them the durability and destructive firepower of a starship with CS level technology. Skill and tactical genius can only carry you so far you need the technology to make it succeed.

Their technology is better than the CS in a lot of ways.
Not as good in others.
The tech in the original Mechanoids RPG wasn't really better than the CS has, and CS tech IS sold on Phase World.
They're the best native human tech in North America, so I don't quite know why you're so down on them.

[Killer Cyborg]

Sorry but there's no way the Megaversal Legion had technology that was only as good as the CS, they were Phase World level technology not Rifts Earth level in origin. You don't hold up to the hordes of the Mechanoids or overthrow masters whose personal technology gave them the durability and destructive firepower of a starship with CS level technology. Skill and tactical genius can only carry you so far you need the technology to make it succeed.

Tell that to the Gurkha's and to the Viet Cong

Not really relevant, the Viet Cong for example weren't trying to hold off people who were using weapons that could just sterilize the area. If nuclear weapons had been used against them they'd have been helpless because they simply hadn't the weapons to deal with weapons on that scale. If you don't have what it takes to deal with someone on a particular scale even marginally you're going to lose.

What does the Megaversal Legion have that protects them from ICBMs?

[Killer Cyborg]

IF you use the reduced stats that the game creator suggests, then the Megaversal Troopers are no longer powerful enough to outclass the CS, based on the comparison combat example that I posted earlier.
So the Megaversal Troopers probably cannot be considered to be the top soldiers.

IF, on the other hand, you use the original stats, then they might be the top soldiers... but considering the fact that they are officially "unbalanced" and "overpowering," that's kind of a meaningless victory even if they DO get it.

I agree with Pepsi Jedi... thanks for the "lookup".

Even using those mods the Universal Legion is still in the top two, Atlantis being the other.

It's the standard Force Fields and I-Fields that give them the biggest boost... and the fact that they can use phase world energy weapons to compensate for the nerfing of their weapons.

I'm not seeing that gear listed under the basic trooper.

I actually use different damage numbers for the IAR-20 based on the idea that it shares a common round with the IAR-2 and the HIAR-22 but even using the canon damage -25% it is a fair weapon. The ARP-1 and HRP-1 even with -25% are still quite formidable.

The numbers that actually make sense for the IAR Series is 2d6 per shot, with a 5 round burst doing 4d6 (standard x2), a 15 round bursts doing 1d6x10 (standard x5).

Perhaps, but those are not the numbers listed.
At -25% damage, the IAR-20 would have something like:
2d4+1 MD per shot, 1d6x5 MD per 15 round burst, 1d6x10+10 MD per 30-round long burst.
The Payload would be 72 rounds, which would be 2 long bursts, and 12 normal shots before running out of ammo, or 4 medium bursts plus 12 single shots.

Definitely a respectable weapon, but not that great of damage output compared to some other weapons (Wilk's 457, for example).

[Crucible]

Sorry but there's no way the Megaversal Legion had technology that was only as good as the CS, they were Phase World level technology not Rifts Earth level in origin. You don't hold up to the hordes of the Mechanoids or overthrow masters whose personal technology gave them the durability and destructive firepower of a starship with CS level technology. Skill and tactical genius can only carry you so far you need the technology to make it succeed.

Tell that to the Gurkha's and to the Viet Cong

Not really relevant, the Viet Cong for example weren't trying to hold off people who were using weapons that could just sterilize the area. If nuclear weapons had been used against them they'd have been helpless because they simply hadn't the weapons to deal with weapons on that scale. If you don't have what it takes to deal with someone on a particular scale even marginally you're going to lose.

Now I am starting to believe that you are arguing for the sake of argument and don't really know what you are talking about.

[Nightmask]

Sorry but there's no way the Megaversal Legion had technology that was only as good as the CS, they were Phase World level technology not Rifts Earth level in origin. You don't hold up to the hordes of the Mechanoids or overthrow masters whose personal technology gave them the durability and destructive firepower of a starship with CS level technology. Skill and tactical genius can only carry you so far you need the technology to make it succeed.

Tell that to the Gurkha's and to the Viet Cong

Not really relevant, the Viet Cong for example weren't trying to hold off people who were using weapons that could just sterilize the area. If nuclear weapons had been used against them they'd have been helpless because they simply hadn't the weapons to deal with weapons on that scale. If you don't have what it takes to deal with someone on a particular scale even marginally you're going to lose.

Now I am starting to believe that you are arguing for the sake of argument and don't really know what you are talking about.

So you believe then that someone who can't hurt their opponent and can be killed by their opponent with impunity can somehow actually win a conflict with one another? Because the disparity in technology and skill between the two sides in Vietnam is nothing like what it would take to deal with something like the Mechanoid fleet. The CS couldn't stand against them five minutes let alone 23 hrs like the Megaversal Legion could, and downgrading the Legion's technology to be no better than the CS or worse creates a glaring error because the Legion couldn't have the record it has with CS level technology. So the tech needs upgraded back to where it more honestly reflects their capabilities.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Just what do you think the Mechinoids have that the CS "Couldn't stand against them for 5 minutes"?

They don't pack reflex cannons do they? *Glances to his Mechinoids book* If so. How come Archie and one human kicked their butts off earth?

Seriously though, what weapons are you looking at in the Mechanoids possession, can vaporize the CS in under 5 minutes? But not the ML?

And don't hand wave it Nightmask. BOOK AND PAGE AND SPECIFIC WEAPON. Back up your statement.

[Shorty]

Ok I will jump into the threadjack here. Calling the Rift defense shield handwavium is incorrect. Of course it had never been seen before because no one else had it. If having never been seen before is handwavium then the entire Rifts books are nothing but handwavium for everything after the original main book. Just because a situation hasn't arisen where you see something before doesn't mean that the situation arising for the first time makes the whole thing nothing but author fiat, it is simply a new aspect of the game.

Actually handwavium is exactly correct. A thing or event, never seen before in the setting, created for the soul purpose of preventing or allowing something in the story that could not be done before or not be defended from before in that setting. A thing or event that magically 'solves' a major problem or barrier in the story.
I.E. a giant magical spell/defense, that was never seen before or sense, never referenced in being in development, that only came into existence when someone launched flights of Nuclear missiles.
It's pretty much the exact definition of handwavium. Right up to the point where it's now destroyed so it's 'out' of existence just as quick as it's in.

If that was true then the black vault entire book is hand wavium. A huge anti magic never touch never use the stuff country having a huge magically defended vault to store the magic items they have but never destroyed? Handwavium.
Phase world is full of handwavium too by that definition. Phase powers only being used by one race and they can teach others the basics but only they can ever master it? UWW rifting submarines from a low tech world coming to the defense of elves in space? Etc etc.

Federation of magic has a tower that teleports itself away as a defense also not seen elsewhere, Dunscon has walls made of brass not seen anywhere before or after, Spirit West has Nunneheni who mysteriously save a large portion of Indians and Buffalo and you never see them elsewhere. I could keep going on and on about things that only show up once all over the Rifts megaverse and are never seen from again. Even repeatable technology like laser rifles keep breaking rules themselves for example in Phase world they explicitly state that Rifts Earth is far behind Phase World average in non military items and about 20-30 years behind in military items. Then War Campaign comes out and everything from body armor, to hand weapons, to power armor all blow away Phase world average (And that is a book written by “Power Creep” Carella)

Just because you do not like something does not make it handwavium. Just because something hasn’t been seen before doesn’t make it handwavium. Also as a side note. Look up handwavium in the dictionary and you will get nothing. It is a completely made up term which for me is defined as “A situation or event in which established canon and rules are gone directly against with a result completely at odds with established expectations and criteria” Your definition may vary.

The bolded part is the best part of your above statement. An extremely powerful magic using and magic based city state coming up with a defense that “Magically” solves a major problem. You just answered your own question right in that sentence.

2nd thing about that nuclear missile strike is that the general who ordered it got into deep doggy doo for it. Prosek did not want to nuke Tolkeen because if it had been succesfull then every single power in NA would have aligned themselves together against the CS and not even the CS is powerful enough to fight that many groups at the same time.

I don't remember this at all. Cite your source please. There were 6 books so I may have missed it but other than Lenwen's stuff I've never heard this at all.

I don’t have any of those books aside from #4 for the cyber knights anymore. They got left behind in a move but it is something I explicitly remember perhaps from book 2. I know that I am supposed to back up my arguments with page and numbers but take it easy on me for this one

3rd thing is Tolkeen lost and honestly they would have lost in the end even without that whole Jericho handwavium (I will get into why this is handwavium momentarily) because they did have finite resources. Almost every (and actually probably every war) has been won by the side with more stuff to throw into the war. Individual battles may be won by the side with less but by and large wars are won by he with the most toys. Yes Tolkeen had ley lines, yes they had nexus points but a person cannot live by magic alone if they could then the city state of Tolkeen would not have had farms and other resource gathering things around the state of them. Even if you go with sustain and such for feeding people they need metal for building their TW stuff, they need cloth, they need rest and they need resupply. All of which can be had from the ley lines and nexus but all of which the CS had as well but in vastly larger quantities. Getting supplies (Metal, crystals, gems etc for TW stuff that Tolkeen built en masse) through a ley line from an outside source requires money because people don’t give up their stuff for free and Money was definitely a finite item for them.

[quote=”Pepsi Jedi”]There's alot more to it than 'just' that, but yes, that was indeed a part of why they lost. [/quote]

4th thing, if Tolkeen had held out and just held onto a defense then maybe they could have swayed enough potential allies to join them to have won. Inflicted enough casualties on the CS that they would have come up with some excuse to quit but they didn't. They did the sorcerers revenge which not only hurt them terribly in how many resources it used and Tolkeen forces were killed in it but it also showed to the world (and megaverse) that they were not nice people themselves that they were willing to use any amount of force, any alliances no matter how terrible to win and that drove off a lot of the support they did have. And thirdly the revenge also solidified support against them ending the war between CS and Free Quebec and putting more moral support from the CS populace behind the war effor

This indeed was part of it too. By the time the "Tolkeen war" started, the Tolkeen Generals and such were exactly what the CS feared. Super powerful magical people or things that were diabolical in nature and capable of anything. Weither they were driven to it by the oppression of the CS or if they strolled in there willingly, the point was, they were exactly what the CS ((Rightly)) Feared.

I am not disagreeing with you but just wanted to make an addendum that when the war started most of the Tolkeen generals were still good and perhaps even righteous people. It wasn’t until later on a few years down the road in the war that they were being displaced by the more aggressive and war like evil people.

5th thing. The CS does fight against magic users every day and in a lot of situations it is tooth and nail. I would also point out what was mentioned before about the St Louis arch, ruins of old Chicago, FoM doing rather constant attacks against them as well. However small scale small group battles are not the same thing and are not treated the same as a full scale full blown war. It does give experience though which will help in said full scale war, but in this instance both sides had plenty of experience in fighting since the CS had been testing Tolkeen for years in small scale battles.

Exactly. The CS was in constant battles. Were they full scale Nation sized battles? not all of them. But they were constantly honing that edge. They didn't just sit around. They did fight all the things that have been mentioned and have had wars against the Federation of Magic.

Tolkeen, as a city/force, has not. While the CS has harried them at times they had never done battle with the CS in that same nature. They haven't had units out, rotating to front lines of a dozen different battle zones and expansion sites for 100 years.

I'm not saying the tolkeen people couldn't fight. They really could. Better than alot of folks. But fighting in a group of 5 to 10, annd fighting a war against hundreds of thousands if not more, is vastly different.

Tolkeen was gang type wars, and the baddest gang in the world would fall in moments against a military coming to kick their teeth in.

Someone get on the horn and tell the Mujahideen that they stand no chance against the Russians. Also someone tell the Taliban that they stand no chance against the most powerful military in the world and that they should just give up fighting after all if they haven’t won in 10 years….. Guerilla warfare throughout history usually doesn’t “Win” wars in the conventional sense of winning but it does eventually make the bigger guys get tired and go home.
Tolkeen should have done Guerilla warfare (and indeed did) and were very successful at it. Their biggest loss came from their biggest win and was also the turning point in their final loss. That was when they did a full scale attack against the CS in Sorcerers Revenge. While they did win that battle they seriously got hurt badly by the CS far more than any other engagement that they won.

And finally Jericho and why it is handwavium while the shield defense isn’t. The shield defense while never having been mentioned before is a plausible use of game mechanics.

It's really not. It was a simple and badly written excuse for why the war wasn't over in 5 minutes. If you take out that ONE SINGLE THING. The war.... would be over in 5 minutes and there wouldn't be 6 books of back and forth.

It really is not handwavium to use something never seen before. Rifts books are replete with things that “Haven’t been seen before” For another example to go along with my previous ones. Go ask Tarnow how their magical transmuting crystal is getting along.

Shifters can open rifts, Rifts are openings into other planes/dimensions/whatever. Tolkeen was built on three Mega Nexuses with smaller nexuses interspersed throughout. Having a defense of people able to open a giant (hopefully controlled) rift over the city is perfectly plausible by written game mechanics. Jericho however went directly against written established rules for an existing game mechanic. His entire march through the Hivelands being (mostly) unmolested

This part ins't true. He lost one in 4 or one in 3 men if memory serves. Alot of people that hate the Holmes thing, like to cite that 'Oh he made it through the hivvelands with out being bothered all that much"

As I've pointed out before in other threads, this isn't the case. they had to button up in their apc's and tanks and walkers and stuff and slowly make the trip through. All the while hearing their friends being killed and ripped to shreads and under orders not to do anything to help them. Wondering the entire way if they were next, and if they were next, knowing that they'd die and the armies wouldn't help them. Stuffed up in APC's and robot vehicles. unable to go out side. Peeing and crapping in buckets and emptying it out ports... eating mre's. unable to move around. unable to bathe. living in the fear of death 24/7. All on a theory of a man they trusted.

I'm not saying the change in the bugs behavior was anything other than a plot device. I'm not. what I am saying is people hand wave it in their descriptions as if it was no big deal. 25 to 35% of the armies died in that one action. They were not 'unmolested' in any way. Mostly or otherwise. They were shredded and bloodied and lost one in four to three in ten men. that's pretty big losses.

The horror of that trip is lostly ignored due to the results.. but that trip probably messed up those troops for life. Granted they did live to join the final battle but that had to be harrowing on a level that is largely ignored.

I never said his trip was easy. I never said he didn’t lose men. What I did say is that his entire trip through was a direct slap in the face of established rules from the Xiticix book. Going slowly will help yes. Not fighting back will help yes. But if you are confronted by the Xiticix and you do not leave on a direct path out then they will tear you to shreds. The book even says that the more of you there are the MORE likely you are to be attacked as a direct threat. And if there is not enough of them there to get the job done more and more and more will coming until there are literally millions of them tearing at your noisey, clanking, person filled metal things invading their territory and every one of said invaders is DEAD.

is in direct disagreement with every single published thing that Palladium has put out about the Xiticix. Both in how few forces he lost, how few fights they were in how much distance they travelled and how long they were in the Hivelands is completely 100% against established lore for the Xiticix.

Again. I'm not saying it wasn't a plot device, but it was not the "No big deal" you (( and many others that don't like it)) are making it out to be.

And at least it was explained in the books. Why it worked and how. It wasn't just a 'Oh crap. Nukes are incoming. Open the super secret, never seen before or even mentioned in any way shield that does nothing but suck up the nukes that were just launched at us, defense!!!" The explanation on the how and why the march through the hivelands was explained. (( You may not LIKE it. And I know many don't. But there was 'an' explanation. ))

Actually that defense of Tolkeen would suck up an incoming anything not just nukes. It isn’t that I don’t like the explanation given for how Holmes was able to march through Xiticix territory it is that they directly went against a set of rules and precedent that they had established in one of their most recent books. Personally I really like the STORY of how they went through. But the stench of the crap coming off of how they did it is just too bad for me to truly enjoy.

Also I did not say it was no big deal. I did not say that the soldiers didn’t suffer. Nor that they didn’t march into a literal hell for their devotion not to the CS but to the man leading them. It was an amazing act of desperation and faith. It is just too much handwavium for me. (using my definition of handwavium) And I will not spend time defending a plot device that I thought sucked, no matter how good the story of it may have been. No more than I would expect you to defend the Tri-Rift shield defense that you despise as your version of handwavium.

In summation, Tolkeen IMO still would have lost but the method of their losing was bull pucky. CS had more resources, more allies, more public will, and more drive to win.

Well i won't disagree. As I've pointed out before, the war went back and forth the way it did, to sell books. To make it 'Entertaining'. It had very little to do with how a 'real' war would be waged, but was done so largely on an almost 'Movie setting' type of thing. One side does thhis... the other side counters with that... then they do this!! and the other side counters with that...... then they come back with THIS!!!!!!! That the other side counters with this other thing!! OH NOES!!! Then suddenly the guys they thought dead.... are suddenly back from the dead to ride to the rescue to save the day!!

It was for Entertainment and to sell books. There ---- was---- hand waving on both sides. BOTH SIDES. But the length of the war and the back and forth nature of it, and it's being unrealistic, was to 1) Entertain and 2) Sell books. if you look at it from that standpoint.... while it might not "make sense" it could be excused for the 'reason' it was like that.

Back and forth is the nature of most large scale confrontations. There is very few large scale confrontations that are a cut and dried victory for one side. Actually I can’t even think of one war that didn’t involve some back and forth. (Except for the first gulf war but there is an exception to every rule) So that is completely realistic. After all just look at Afghanistan, we are still there ten years later. The most powerful military on the planet, some of the most well trained soldiers on the planet (I am including everyone here, US, Canada, Aussies etc) against a single country and we are still fighting every day. (This comment is not meant as a positive or a negative about the reasons for going there or remaining there. It is simply an example of how a very small group of people can cause a large group of people, no matter how well trained, an endless amount of trouble. Please do not take it as anything more than said example)

In the end though we will all look at the story and decide on our own what we think is good and what we think stinks. And we shall carry those opinions with us with little chance of changing the minds of others or others changing our minds because in a situation like this where just the basic outline is given of the confrontation with very few closely examined situations our own thoughts about “how things should work” will fill in the rest for us.

Have a nice thread

[Killer Cyborg]

The CS couldn't stand against them five minutes let alone 23 hrs like the Megaversal Legion could, and downgrading the Legion's technology to be no better than the CS or worse creates a glaring error because the Legion couldn't have the record it has with CS level technology.

Support your claims.

[Killer Cyborg]

Shorty, what plot points do you think that the Black Vault, Phase World, etc. are instantly resolving or waving away?

[Shorty]

Shorty, what plot points do you think that the Black Vault, Phase World, etc. are instantly resolving or waving away?

The black vault? "What about the magic weapons and items that the mages they capture/kill have?"

Throw them into a giant super secret no one has heard about it safe from magical intrusion vault.

That would be a giant thing right there.

The Phase world books are their own seperate thing and I gave examples in my last post of things that only show up once in those books. There isn't a lot of plot points in that book because while it gives a general outline of how things are in the three galaxies at large it doesn't go into much detail like the Siege on Tolkeen books did. And even the Siege books were still pretty thin on details. Phase world was also one of the early books covering a completely new area so it is more of a newer books going against what was established in that book than the other way around.

[Crucible]

Sorry but there's no way the Megaversal Legion had technology that was only as good as the CS, they were Phase World level technology not Rifts Earth level in origin. You don't hold up to the hordes of the Mechanoids or overthrow masters whose personal technology gave them the durability and destructive firepower of a starship with CS level technology. Skill and tactical genius can only carry you so far you need the technology to make it succeed.

Tell that to the Gurkha's and to the Viet Cong

Not really relevant, the Viet Cong for example weren't trying to hold off people who were using weapons that could just sterilize the area. If nuclear weapons had been used against them they'd have been helpless because they simply hadn't the weapons to deal with weapons on that scale. If you don't have what it takes to deal with someone on a particular scale even marginally you're going to lose.

Now I am starting to believe that you are arguing for the sake of argument and don't really know what you are talking about.

So you believe then that someone who can't hurt their opponent and can be killed by their opponent with impunity can somehow actually win a conflict with one another? Because the disparity in technology and skill between the two sides in Vietnam is nothing like what it would take to deal with something like the Mechanoid fleet. The CS couldn't stand against them five minutes let alone 23 hrs like the Megaversal Legion could, and downgrading the Legion's technology to be no better than the CS or worse creates a glaring error because the Legion couldn't have the record it has with CS level technology. So the tech needs upgraded back to where it more honestly reflects their capabilities.

The books support my claims, you haven't through anything except emotion. I understand hating the CS. I really do. As a black man I have strong issues with bigotry of any kind, but reality is just that. The mechanoids are fueled by hatred and to be honest thats right about it. The CS would be able to fight the Legion even if we don't downgrade the gear. The CS has books and books of information and some weapons are pretty beastly. We always seem to care so much about rifle damage, but how many CS power armors boast a missile of some sort? A volley of those can be pretty nasty and that is just from SAMAS. You honestly have not read the information and cannot know for sure what you are talking about if you say 23 minutes.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Ok I will jump into the threadjack here. Calling the Rift defense shield handwavium is incorrect. Of course it had never been seen before because no one else had it. If having never been seen before is handwavium then the entire Rifts books are nothing but handwavium for everything after the original main book. Just because a situation hasn't arisen where you see something before doesn't mean that the situation arising for the first time makes the whole thing nothing but author fiat, it is simply a new aspect of the game.

Actually handwavium is exactly correct. A thing or event, never seen before in the setting, created for the soul purpose of preventing or allowing something in the story that could not be done before or not be defended from before in that setting. A thing or event that magically 'solves' a major problem or barrier in the story.
I.E. a giant magical spell/defense, that was never seen before or sense, never referenced in being in development, that only came into existence when someone launched flights of Nuclear missiles.
It's pretty much the exact definition of handwavium. Right up to the point where it's now destroyed so it's 'out' of existence just as quick as it's in.

If that was true then the black vault entire book is hand wavium. A huge anti magic never touch never use the stuff country having a huge magically defended vault to store the magic items they have but never destroyed? Handwavium.

How does that solve any problem or barrier? Because they keep enemy weapons for study on how to better over come them, doesn't 'solve any unsolvable/impossible problem" That I'm seeing.

Phase world is full of handwavium too by that definition. Phase powers only being used by one race and they can teach others the basics but only they can ever master it?

Again, what problem or challenge is over come with the planet of phase world? What specific unsurmountable problem was overcome? And I seem to remember it being a pretty big book full of races and stuff to play, and with lists of the tech and powers you mention fully able to be used by PC's.

Federation of magic has a tower that teleports itself away as a defense also not seen elsewhere, Dunscon has walls made of brass not seen anywhere before or after, Spirit West has Nunneheni who mysteriously save a large portion of Indians and Buffalo and you never see them elsewhere. I could keep going on and on about things that only show up once all over the Rifts megaverse and are never seen from again

There's a difference between "Unique technology or Magic" and "Technology or Magic created for the soul purpose of overcoming one specific insurmountable or unanswerable problem, never to be seen again."

I don't know about the spirit west stuff you're citing. It was one of the worst rifts books and I don't know it cover to cover, but if the Nunneheni suddenly came up with that kind of thing, then YES. It WOULD be handwavium. It's not like it happens ONCE in a setting and never again. Palladium's pretty bad about using it pretty freely.

The fact you can find other examples of it, doesn't hurt the claim that the Nuke eater spell isn't handwavium. It just points out that Palladium will hand wave, if and when they feel like it.

. Even repeatable technology like laser rifles keep breaking rules themselves for example in Phase world they explicitly state that Rifts Earth is far behind Phase World average in non military items and about 20-30 years behind in military items. Then War Campaign comes out and everything from body armor, to hand weapons, to power armor all blow away Phase world average (And that is a book written by “Power Creep” Carella)

Well. Time passed. Tech caught up? The CS were able to gain access to Phase world stuff as well. And while they didn't go with phase weapons they did have access to "normal" Phase world laser and plasma stuff.

Wouldn't the CS try um out? Stand on a laser shooting range and shoot the phase world rifle. then their rifle and notice the phase world rifle was better... then some CS tech with a screw driver go "ok I'm gonna take it apart and see how it works"

Seems a pretty easy answer for that one. Think about earthh past. When the 'white man" came to the US he had guns and the Native American's didn't do that well against them. That being said, the Native Americans got on board with guns and horses pretty quick and started shooting back.

You also have to remember 'on average' means "ON AVERAGE" Some stuff will be above the curve. One of the best military's on the planet.. is going to be above the curve.
I know that it's not often thought about but if you look in the base book. There are weapons that only do 1d6md. Now... no player characters ever choose THAT gun.. but they're there. They're "Common". When you hold that up against some of the stuff on phase world it does look behind. One of the biggest and two best military's on the planet? Well yeah their stuff's going to be at the top of the bell curve.

Just because you do not like something does not make it handwavium.

When it fits the definition it does. Weither you like it or not. And again as you seem to beleive other wise. One instance of it doesn't mean it can't happen again. And multiple instances of it doesn't change the fact that's what it is.

Just because something hasn’t been seen before doesn’t make it handwavium.

No. Not JUST because of that. That's just a part of it.

Also as a side note. Look up handwavium in the dictionary and you will get nothing. It is a completely made up term which for me is defined as “A situation or event in which established canon and rules are gone directly against with a result completely at odds with established expectations and criteria” Your definition may vary.

I already defined mine. *points up*

The bolded part is the best part of your above statement. An extremely powerful magic using and magic based city state coming up with a defense that “Magically” solves a major problem. You just answered your own question right in that sentence.

*shakes head* You're being too literal. More over. You know it. You're trying to dance around words when you know full well the context and meaning.

2nd thing about that nuclear missile strike is that the general who ordered it got into deep doggy doo for it. Prosek did not want to nuke Tolkeen because if it had been succesfull then every single power in NA would have aligned themselves together against the CS and not even the CS is powerful enough to fight that many groups at the same time.

I don't remember this at all. Cite your source please. There were 6 books so I may have missed it but other than Lenwen's stuff I've never heard this at all.

I don’t have any of those books aside from #4 for the cyber knights anymore. They got left behind in a move but it is something I explicitly remember perhaps from book 2. I know that I am supposed to back up my arguments with page and numbers but take it easy on me for this one

I'm not going to call you a liar or anything. It very well might be there, and ___I____ might have missed it.. but II do have all the books and I never remember anything like that. There's no WAY that someone could launch nukes with out Prosek's express permission as an opening slavo of the war. Your thought seems to be that some general just got it in his head to start a war with tolkeen by launching multiple NUCLEAR MISSLES at tolkeen with out the high command's permission and planning?

What? Prosek was woken up and some aid was like "Um... Sir...... That rumbeling you heard... was one of your Generals launching flights of ICBMs at Tolkeen..... did you say he could do that?"

"WHAT?!?!?!? NO!! HOW DARE HE LAUNCH MY NUKES!!"

I don't think that happened. I could be wrong but untill you can back that one up, I don't think it went down that way. I think you're misremembering.

3rd thing is Tolkeen lost and honestly they would have lost in the end even without that whole Jericho handwavium (I will get into why this is handwavium momentarily) because they did have finite resources. Almost every (and actually probably every war) has been won by the side with more stuff to throw into the war. Individual battles may be won by the side with less but by and large wars are won by he with the most toys. Yes Tolkeen had ley lines, yes they had nexus points but a person cannot live by magic alone if they could then the city state of Tolkeen would not have had farms and other resource gathering things around the state of them. Even if you go with sustain and such for feeding people they need metal for building their TW stuff, they need cloth, they need rest and they need resupply. All of which can be had from the ley lines and nexus but all of which the CS had as well but in vastly larger quantities. Getting supplies (Metal, crystals, gems etc for TW stuff that Tolkeen built en masse) through a ley line from an outside source requires money because people don’t give up their stuff for free and Money was definitely a finite item for them.

[quote=”Pepsi Jedi”]There's alot more to it than 'just' that, but yes, that was indeed a part of why they lost.

4th thing, if Tolkeen had held out and just held onto a defense then maybe they could have swayed enough potential allies to join them to have won. Inflicted enough casualties on the CS that they would have come up with some excuse to quit but they didn't. They did the sorcerers revenge which not only hurt them terribly in how many resources it used and Tolkeen forces were killed in it but it also showed to the world (and megaverse) that they were not nice people themselves that they were willing to use any amount of force, any alliances no matter how terrible to win and that drove off a lot of the support they did have. And thirdly the revenge also solidified support against them ending the war between CS and Free Quebec and putting more moral support from the CS populace behind the war effor

This indeed was part of it too. By the time the "Tolkeen war" started, the Tolkeen Generals and such were exactly what the CS feared. Super powerful magical people or things that were diabolical in nature and capable of anything. Weither they were driven to it by the oppression of the CS or if they strolled in there willingly, the point was, they were exactly what the CS ((Rightly)) Feared.

I am not disagreeing with you but just wanted to make an addendum that when the war started most of the Tolkeen generals were still good and perhaps even righteous people. It wasn’t until later on a few years down the road in the war that they were being displaced by the more aggressive and war like evil people. [/quote]

You've stated above that you don't have the books. But I would point you to the write up's on the generals. They're not 'good guys diven bad' for the most part. ((There are a few)) for the most part they're powerful evil beings in charge that are having a party in the war andd live to kill ect.

5th thing. The CS does fight against magic users every day and in a lot of situations it is tooth and nail. I would also point out what was mentioned before about the St Louis arch, ruins of old Chicago, FoM doing rather constant attacks against them as well. However small scale small group battles are not the same thing and are not treated the same as a full scale full blown war. It does give experience though which will help in said full scale war, but in this instance both sides had plenty of experience in fighting since the CS had been testing Tolkeen for years in small scale battles.

Exactly. The CS was in constant battles. Were they full scale Nation sized battles? not all of them. But they were constantly honing that edge. They didn't just sit around. They did fight all the things that have been mentioned and have had wars against the Federation of Magic.

Tolkeen, as a city/force, has not. While the CS has harried them at times they had never done battle with the CS in that same nature. They haven't had units out, rotating to front lines of a dozen different battle zones and expansion sites for 100 years.

I'm not saying the tolkeen people couldn't fight. They really could. Better than alot of folks. But fighting in a group of 5 to 10, annd fighting a war against hundreds of thousands if not more, is vastly different.

Tolkeen was gang type wars, and the baddest gang in the world would fall in moments against a military coming to kick their teeth in.

Someone get on the horn and tell the Mujahideen that they stand no chance against the Russians. Also someone tell the Taliban that they stand no chance against the most powerful military in the world and that they should just give up fighting after all if they haven’t won in 10 years….. Guerilla warfare throughout history usually doesn’t “Win” wars in the conventional sense of winning but it does eventually make the bigger guys get tired and go home.

But that's not what you have here is it? The CS didn't try and "Drive out the mages and let the non mages live on in tolkeen unmolested" did they?

No.. They didn't.

They went in to kill um all. Man woman and child. they STARTED the war with Nukes. That didn't work so they had to go in the hard way. At the war's end they're not letting the tolkeen people live in peace now that the military is done. They're systematically leveling the entire city state. Looting it andd knocking down every single building. Every single brick.

That's a different sort of war. That's the 'bomb them into the stone age' sort of war that Guerilla tactics don't work all that well for. the US could nuke the taliban till they glow and take out everything around them but that's not the type of war we're fighting is it?

It's different from what went on in tolkeen.

Tolkeen should have done Guerilla warfare (and indeed did) and were very successful at it.

Tolkeen should have just left. There'd been no war at all. But Guerilla war wouldn't work when the other side is just going to level your entire city state.

Their biggest loss came from their biggest win and was also the turning point in their final loss. That was when they did a full scale attack against the CS in Sorcerers Revenge. While they did win that battle they seriously got hurt badly by the CS far more than any other engagement that they won.

They also made deals with army's of unholy monsters and demons to do it. Which proved the CS's point and dried up most of the good will that Tolkeen MIGHT have had for being the poor victim in all of it. they proved the CS's fears to be correct. That they were a dangerous collection of magic users that delt with demons to kill humans.

That was colossally stupid.

And finally Jericho and why it is handwavium while the shield defense isn’t. The shield defense while never having been mentioned before is a plausible use of game mechanics.

It's really not. It was a simple and badly written excuse for why the war wasn't over in 5 minutes. If you take out that ONE SINGLE THING. The war.... would be over in 5 minutes and there wouldn't be 6 books of back and forth.

It really is not handwavium to use something never seen before. Rifts books are replete with things that “Haven’t been seen before” For another example to go along with my previous ones. Go ask Tarnow how their magical transmuting crystal is getting along.

No. It's handwavium when that one thing never seen before is only there in responce to a problem that had no way of being solved with out it. And then, after that one single problem is resolved, goes away.

New stuff pops up in rifts all the time.

A super magical shield that stopped nukes from hitting a city, when no one else on rifts earth has ever launched nukes, and no one's ever mentioned it before.. and works 100% first time to stop an insurmountable problem...... Is handwavium.

1) New. Never seen before. (( it's part of it))
2) Never being shown as being developed.
3) "Solves" a problem that with out it, had no possible solution.
4) Allows the 'story' to move past that 'Impossible' point and continue on with out effort or cost to the subject of the hand wave.
5) After the problem was solved, dissapears from the story never to be seen or heard from again. (( insured by Tolkeen being defeated, and razzed to the ground and the 'technology' (magic) lost))


When you add up all that. It IS handwavium. Being new and never seen before is one aspect of it, but not alll. As you've said (( and I agree)) new stuff pops up all the time. But this was different, for the reasons stated.

Shifters can open rifts, Rifts are openings into other planes/dimensions/whatever. Tolkeen was built on three Mega Nexuses with smaller nexuses interspersed throughout. Having a defense of people able to open a giant (hopefully controlled) rift over the city is perfectly plausible by written game mechanics. Jericho however went directly against written established rules for an existing game mechanic. His entire march through the Hivelands being (mostly) unmolested

This part ins't true. He lost one in 4 or one in 3 men if memory serves. Alot of people that hate the Holmes thing, like to cite that 'Oh he made it through the hivvelands with out being bothered all that much"

As I've pointed out before in other threads, this isn't the case. they had to button up in their apc's and tanks and walkers and stuff and slowly make the trip through. All the while hearing their friends being killed and ripped to shreads and under orders not to do anything to help them. Wondering the entire way if they were next, and if they were next, knowing that they'd die and the armies wouldn't help them. Stuffed up in APC's and robot vehicles. unable to go out side. Peeing and crapping in buckets and emptying it out ports... eating mre's. unable to move around. unable to bathe. living in the fear of death 24/7. All on a theory of a man they trusted.

I'm not saying the change in the bugs behavior was anything other than a plot device. I'm not. what I am saying is people hand wave it in their descriptions as if it was no big deal. 25 to 35% of the armies died in that one action. They were not 'unmolested' in any way. Mostly or otherwise. They were shredded and bloodied and lost one in four to three in ten men. that's pretty big losses.

The horror of that trip is lostly ignored due to the results.. but that trip probably messed up those troops for life. Granted they did live to join the final battle but that had to be harrowing on a level that is largely ignored.

I never said his trip was easy. I never said he didn’t lose men.

But you did. You said "Mostly unmolested' Which is NOT what it was. "(Mostly) unmolested" means they traveled through and wern't messed with that much. Loosing a third of your entire army isn't "(Mostly) unmolested" by any definition. The way you wrote it was as if it wasn't that big a deal. You even have 'mostly' set apart to help show that you think it was (pardon the circular definition here.) MOSTLY, unmolested.

What I did say is that his entire trip through was a direct slap in the face of established rules from the Xiticix book. Going slowly will help yes. Not fighting back will help yes. But if you are confronted by the Xiticix and you do not leave on a direct path out then they will tear you to shreds.

One in three people dead with no violence isn't exactly a cake walk.

The book even says that the more of you there are the MORE likely you are to be attacked as a direct threat.

And they were attacked. It was only after they didn't fight back and just let the bugs kill and kill annd kill, did the bugs bbasicly... get bored and realize after they'd killed thousands of men.. that they wern't a threat.. as they wern't fighting back. In grand terms. the CS was "playing dead".

And if there is not enough of them there to get the job done more and more and more will coming until there are literally millions of them tearing at your noisey, clanking, person filled metal things invading their territory and every one of said invaders is DEAD.

That part was changed. *nods* I fully admit that. It was changed. And I can easily see how many think that's hand waving it. That's fine. In this case I think it was more "Noone's tried this techniquic and after losing thousands of men, it worked. (( wasn't like it was free of danger or cost))

But it CAN be seen as Handwavium

is in direct disagreement with every single published thing that Palladium has put out about the Xiticix. Both in how few forces he lost, how few fights they were in how much distance they travelled and how long they were in the Hivelands is completely 100% against established lore for the Xiticix.

Again. I'm not saying it wasn't a plot device, but it was not the "No big deal" you (( and many others that don't like it)) are making it out to be.

And at least it was explained in the books. Why it worked and how. It wasn't just a 'Oh crap. Nukes are incoming. Open the super secret, never seen before or even mentioned in any way shield that does nothing but suck up the nukes that were just launched at us, defense!!!" The explanation on the how and why the march through the hivelands was explained. (( You may not LIKE it. And I know many don't. But there was 'an' explanation. ))

Actually that defense of Tolkeen would suck up an incoming anything not just nukes. It isn’t that I don’t like the explanation given for how Holmes was able to march through Xiticix territory it is that they directly went against a set of rules and precedent that they had established in one of their most recent books. Personally I really like the STORY of how they went through. But the stench of the crap coming off of how they did it is just too bad for me to truly enjoy.

You're not alone in that. Many people didn't like that part. Many people DO concider that part a hand wave. I personally can see thhe logic to it, but it WAS a hand wave in a way.

Also I did not say it was no big deal.

Yeah you did. You said "(mostly) Unmolested"

I did not say that the soldiers didn’t suffer.

"(mostly) Unmolested"

Nor that they didn’t march into a literal hell for their devotion not to the CS but to the man leading them.

In which you account for it all as being "(mostly) Unmolested"

It was an amazing act of desperation and faith. It is just too much handwavium for me. (using my definition of handwavium) And I will not spend time defending a plot device that I thought sucked, no matter how good the story of it may have been. No more than I would expect you to defend the Tri-Rift shield defense that you despise as your version of handwavium.

I'm not saying you need to defend it. If you go back. I just point out that you, like many that don't like that aspect. Play it down. "Oh the army went through the hive lands with almost no losses and showed up to save the day" or... in your case. "They did the march (mostly) umolested" When that's far from the truth. That's like saying the Jews were mostly unmolested in WWII because so many of them lived to see the end of it. It totally ignores the reality of it and the horror of the situation that was endured, to try and get to the point you don't like about it.

I'm not even saying that it wasn't handwavium. It was in a way. But the way you and some others that share your opinion present it, isn't flush with the fact of the item being complained about.

In summation, Tolkeen IMO still would have lost but the method of their losing was bull pucky. CS had more resources, more allies, more public will, and more drive to win.

Well i won't disagree. As I've pointed out before, the war went back and forth the way it did, to sell books. To make it 'Entertaining'. It had very little to do with how a 'real' war would be waged, but was done so largely on an almost 'Movie setting' type of thing. One side does thhis... the other side counters with that... then they do this!! and the other side counters with that...... then they come back with THIS!!!!!!! That the other side counters with this other thing!! OH NOES!!! Then suddenly the guys they thought dead.... are suddenly back from the dead to ride to the rescue to save the day!!

It was for Entertainment and to sell books. There ---- was---- hand waving on both sides. BOTH SIDES. But the length of the war and the back and forth nature of it, and it's being unrealistic, was to 1) Entertain and 2) Sell books. if you look at it from that standpoint.... while it might not "make sense" it could be excused for the 'reason' it was like that.

Back and forth is the nature of most large scale confrontations. There is very few large scale confrontations that are a cut and dried victory for one side. Actually I can’t even think of one war that didn’t involve some back and forth. (Except for the first gulf war but there is an exception to every rule) So that is completely realistic. After all just look at Afghanistan, we are still there ten years later.

You keep bringing that up but it's false. We're not at war with Afghanistan. It's not a conventional war. If it was, we'd be done a long time ago. We're not just blowing them up. We're having to go in among innocents and find the terrorists. That's alot harder to do.

AND.. it's --------nothing----------- like the War with Tolkeen.

The most powerful military on the planet, some of the most well trained soldiers on the planet (I am including everyone here, US, Canada, Aussies etc) against a single country and we are still fighting every day.

We're not fighting the country. We're fighting the insurgant terrorists in the country hiding among the innocent. We can't just 'bomb their base' and be done with it.

(This comment is not meant as a positive or a negative about the reasons for going there or remaining there. It is simply an example of how a very small group of people can cause a large group of people, no matter how well trained, an endless amount of trouble. Please do not take it as anything more than said example)

And if the CS had any interest in keeping the people of tolkeen alive, or caring about them in any way, or even wannting the city intact when they were done you might havve a point.

As the CS's purpose was total obliteration of every building, and the killing of everyone there. You do not.

They aren't the same thing. Hard to do the guerilla war when there's just an empty smoking crater to hide in when the other side is done.

In the end though we will all look at the story and decide on our own what we think is good and what we think stinks. And we shall carry those opinions with us with little chance of changing the minds of others or others changing our minds because in a situation like this where just the basic outline is given of the confrontation with very few closely examined situations our own thoughts about “how things should work” will fill in the rest for us.

Have a nice thread

That part is at least largely true.

[Killer Cyborg]

Shorty, what plot points do you think that the Black Vault, Phase World, etc. are instantly resolving or waving away?

The black vault? "What about the magic weapons and items that the mages they capture/kill have?"

Throw them into a giant super secret no one has heard about it safe from magical intrusion vault.

What's so special about the vault that keeps it from safe from magical intrusion?

The Phase world books are their own seperate thing and I gave examples in my last post of things that only show up once in those books. There isn't a lot of plot points in that book because while it gives a general outline of how things are in the three galaxies at large it doesn't go into much detail like the Siege on Tolkeen books did. And even the Siege books were still pretty thin on details. Phase world was also one of the early books covering a completely new area so it is more of a newer books going against what was established in that book than the other way around.

So Phase World itself is not handwavium, then.

So far, I'm not getting your problem.

[Nightmask]

The books support my claims, you haven't through anything except emotion. I understand hating the CS. I really do. As a black man I have strong issues with bigotry of any kind, but reality is just that. The mechanoids are fueled by hatred and to be honest thats right about it. The CS would be able to fight the Legion even if we don't downgrade the gear. The CS has books and books of information and some weapons are pretty beastly. We always seem to care so much about rifle damage, but how many CS power armors boast a missile of some sort? A volley of those can be pretty nasty and that is just from SAMAS. You honestly have not read the information and cannot know for sure what you are talking about if you say 23 minutes.

It has nothing to do with hating the CS. I would no more downgrade Atlantis because it's an evil empire than I would the CS or Vampire Kingdoms. I also said nothing about 23 minutes, I said the CS wouldn't last five minutes let alone 23 hrs against the Mechanoids. The MV defended an entire planet with its technology and numbers, the CS barely won out over a single city-state/kingdom and couldn't begin to protect even North America let alone the entire planet from a force that can physically consume an entire planet. The game stats for the MV are insufficient therefor to properly represent its given history, we simply don't see enough of the MV to be properly aware of what all that they have.

[Anthar]

Shorty, what plot points do you think that the Black Vault, Phase World, etc. are instantly resolving or waving away?

The black vault? "What about the magic weapons and items that the mages they capture/kill have?"

Throw them into a giant super secret no one has heard about it safe from magical intrusion vault.

What's so special about the vault that keeps it from safe from magical intrusion?

I know there probably no canon statements to back me up but I viewed the best defense of the Black Vault is that no one really knows where it is.

[Killer Cyborg]

I said the CS wouldn't last five minutes let alone 23 hrs against the Mechanoids.

Again, cite your sources for this claim.
Repeating an unsupported opinion does not give it any more strength than it had the first time.

[Grell]

I said the CS wouldn't last five minutes let alone 23 hrs against the Mechanoids.

Again, cite your sources for this claim.
Repeating an unsupported opinion does not give it any more strength than it had the first time.

Seeing how the Mechanoids like to play with their victims, I can see a protracted conflict with the CS. Just because the Mechanoids CAN wipe out a planetary population and military defenses in short order doesn't necessarily mean they WILL. If I recall, one of their greatest weaknesses is their obvious blind spot when it comes to facing humanoid life forms.

[Nightmask]

I said the CS wouldn't last five minutes let alone 23 hrs against the Mechanoids.

Again, cite your sources for this claim.
Repeating an unsupported opinion does not give it any more strength than it had the first time.

Seeing how the Mechanoids like to play with their victims, I can see a protracted conflict with the CS. Just because the Mechanoids CAN wipe out a planetary population and military defenses in short order doesn't necessarily mean they WILL. If I recall, one of their greatest weaknesses is their obvious blind spot when it comes to facing humanoid life forms.

True, the only reason any planet gets that snowball's chance is because they prefer sending in millions of troops to enjoy some gratuitous slaughter, because their planet eater can eat the planet and provide no chance at all. Then again if they really are losing the ground attack unless you've pulled off an epic victory for the ages in destroying the planet-eater base they'll just eat the planet anyway.

[Dustin Fireblade]

I'm not going to call you a liar or anything. It very well might be there, and ___I____ might have missed it.. but II do have all the books and I never remember anything like that. There's no WAY that someone could launch nukes with out Prosek's express permission as an opening slavo of the war. Your thought seems to be that some general just got it in his head to start a war with tolkeen by launching multiple NUCLEAR MISSLES at tolkeen with out the high command's permission and planning?

What? Prosek was woken up and some aid was like "Um... Sir...... That rumbeling you heard... was one of your Generals launching flights of ICBMs at Tolkeen..... did you say he could do that?"

"WHAT?!?!?!? NO!! HOW DARE HE LAUNCH MY NUKES!!"

I don't think that happened. I could be wrong but untill you can back that one up, I don't think it went down that way. I think you're misremembering.

I don't recall the exact wording, but it was in SoT Book 1 under the timeline section. "Chalk's Folly" or something like that. IIRC this happened actually a year or three before the "official" start of the war. The basics were something along the lines that this general thought the war could be won in a really really quick missile salvo... (or something like that)

I'd have to unearth my SoT book 1 from storage, otherwise I'd provide more details.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Whykin

These guys have don't have the vast resources of the NGR or the CS. (While self-sufficient, they are only considered a "light industrial manufacturer")

They don't have the super tech of the Megaversal Legion or Atlantis.


They HAVE been "beset by countless demons, D-Bee's, and power hungry sorcerer's for generations, but has managed to beat down all atackers." (Aftermath pg 144).

They have "generations of warriors" (40% of the total population of 140,000 has years of military experience - Aftermath pg 144 again)

Aftermath and RUE give different numbers as far as their military hardware goes - it sounds like they will get whatever they can and make it work. Again not able to manufacture much of their own designs.

We really don't know much more about them, other than what's listed above, but it sure sounds to me like these guys are doing something right.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I said the CS wouldn't last five minutes let alone 23 hrs against the Mechanoids.

Again, cite your sources for this claim.
Repeating an unsupported opinion does not give it any more strength than it had the first time.

Seeing how the Mechanoids like to play with their victims, I can see a protracted conflict with the CS. Just because the Mechanoids CAN wipe out a planetary population and military defenses in short order doesn't necessarily mean they WILL. If I recall, one of their greatest weaknesses is their obvious blind spot when it comes to facing humanoid life forms.

True, the only reason any planet gets that snowball's chance is because they prefer sending in millions of troops to enjoy some gratuitous slaughter, because their planet eater can eat the planet and provide no chance at all. Then again if they really are losing the ground attack unless you've pulled off an epic victory for the ages in destroying the planet-eater base they'll just eat the planet anyway.

Hey Nightmask are you going to pointus to the pages that back up your claim or just ignore them when called on it? you've ignored it two or three times now.



Will you ignore it some more, or actually back up your words? Not trolling. I honestly want to know the book and page that supports this.

[Subjugator]

Actually, while I have nothing canonical to back it up that says that the CS would not last five minutes against the Mechanoids, I can say that the fact that a Mechanoid mother ship has wings that are the size of North America and IIRC has populations of individual troop types* that outnumber all of the people in North America, that the CS would be wiped off the face of the earth in VERY short order.

/Sub

*I believe some types of troops on an individual mother ship range in the 280,000,000 range. That's PER troop type mind you.

[Killer Cyborg]

I said the CS wouldn't last five minutes let alone 23 hrs against the Mechanoids.

Again, cite your sources for this claim.
Repeating an unsupported opinion does not give it any more strength than it had the first time.

Seeing how the Mechanoids like to play with their victims, I can see a protracted conflict with the CS. Just because the Mechanoids CAN wipe out a planetary population and military defenses in short order doesn't necessarily mean they WILL. If I recall, one of their greatest weaknesses is their obvious blind spot when it comes to facing humanoid life forms.

Bingo.
And THIS is why the Megaversal Legions survived their encounter long enough to escape.
The Mechanoids like to toy with their prey.

They don't need super tech. They don't need super skills.
Granted, they have to have some level of combat ability, and decent firepower, but there's nothing about their encounter with the mechanoids I'm aware of that indicates they lasted longer than the CS would have.

[Killer Cyborg]

True, the only reason any planet gets that snowball's chance is because they prefer sending in millions of troops to enjoy some gratuitous slaughter, because their planet eater can eat the planet and provide no chance at all. Then again if they really are losing the ground attack unless you've pulled off an epic victory for the ages in destroying the planet-eater base they'll just eat the planet anyway.

"planet eater base?"