Telepathy saves

[Killer Cyborg]

Why does someone have to suspect their mind is being read to get a save vs. telepathy?

Because if they don't suspect it, they're completely unguarded.

Shouldn't EVERYONE (unless they willingly open themselves and submit) get an automatic save vs. telepathy if they're being probed? [/quote]

No.

Think about it... if it were that easy for a MINOR PSIONIC to run around and just read minds when they feel like it, as long as they didn't act like they were doing so, they could effectively see through any disguise, any lie, any undercover ID, any scheme, plot, scam... anyone with any sort of information they wanted to keep private would literally have to have mind-block auto defense or an item that blocked telepathy AT ALL TIMES just to keep the info private, since they'd never know who had the power. Psionic powers are stealthy by nature (no words to chant like magic, no items brandished like tech).

Well, kind of.
The thing is, most people aren't going to be past 1st or second level. Telepathy only lasts 2 minutes per level.
Minor psychics are going to have about 18 ISP at first level, with an additional +3.5 per level after that.
Telepathy costs 4 ISP.

So yeah.. a minor psychic CAN run around just reading minds when they feel like it, but only if they feel like it about 4 times per day, for 2-4 minutes at a stretch.

Even a 10th level minor psychic could only keep telepathy going for about 240 minutes, a total of 4 hours, over the course of a day.

[Killer Cyborg]

Because if they don't suspect it, they're completely unguarded.

So what? If I don't suspect a Hypnotic Suggestion, I'm completely unguarded as well... yet it allows a save.

Hypnotic Suggestion actually tries to manipulate your mind, not just read it.
So it's harder.
Just like it's harder to program a computer than it is to use one.

Well, kind of.
The thing is, most people aren't going to be past 1st or second level. Telepathy only lasts 2 minutes per level.
Minor psychics are going to have about 18 ISP at first level, with an additional +3.5 per level after that.
Telepathy costs 4 ISP.

So yeah.. a minor psychic CAN run around just reading minds when they feel like it, but only if they feel like it about 4 times per day, for 2-4 minutes at a stretch.

Even a 10th level minor psychic could only keep telepathy going for about 240 minutes, a total of 4 hours, over the course of a day.

So you're telling me the 1st or second level minor psychic can read the mind of a 15th level (or higher) supernatural being, divining all its secrets, and they don't get a save?

Yes and no.
First of all, most beings of that power are going to have some abilities of their own. Some might have mind block, some might have telepathy in their own right, some might have Detect Psionics, and so on... abilities that either keep their mind from being read, or that help them predict/detect when somebody might be trying to read their mind.
Other than that, yes, a first level minor psychic can read the mind of a 15th level (or higher) whatever.
BUT no, the telepath cannot divine all the beings secrets- Telepathy only lets you read surface thoughts.

The fact that they can't do it for more than a few minutes at a time doesn't matter... they shouldn't be able to do it without a save at all.

Why not?

[Killer Cyborg]

Check out the movie Speed of Thought for some decent scenes with telepathy in them.
There's a pretty good one where he's trying to read the mind of a security guard to get the code, but the guard is thinking about other stuff.

[Killer Cyborg]

BUT no, the telepath cannot divine all the beings secrets- Telepathy only lets you read surface thoughts.

Right, and those surface thoughts can be brought to the forefront rather easily with some simple questions.
Example: You run into someone and ask them their name while reading their mind. They say "Bob" but their mind says "Fred". Cover instantly blown, no save. I call shenanigans on that.[/quote]

As a general rule, sure.
I'm not so sure about professional spies, though, who seriously get into their cover identity. You live by another name long enough, it becomes second nature. Hell, if I went to the Palladium Open House and somebody asked me my name, my first thought would probably be "Killer Cyborg," just because that's the name that would have meaning to people there.

And are you going to spend 4 ISP every time you ask somebody their name?
And is nobody who is going under cover ever going to assume that somebody might be reading their mind?

Example: You are in a bank (or similar situation) where someone asks you to write down secret information (PIN code or something similar). BAM, no save, I just learned your code or secret info just from being within telepathy range.

Yup.

Example: You ask a Uteni if you can get a discount on a Naruni item. He says no. You reply, "Could you ask your boss about it?" Your telepathy just picked up the fact that the True Naruni are the real masters of N.E., a fact which the majority of people aren't supposed to know. No save, you just learned it.

Unless he uses his own psychic powers to block mind reading during sales, or unless he's using telepathy as well and reads your mind before you get that far, or unless he has a technowizardry device to block telepathy, or unless he has a tech device that functions the same way, or unless he is on guard against telepaths when he's trying to make a sale, etc. etc.

Example: You capture a guard. "How many more guards are there?" you ask. Not that it matters, you just learned it by the number that popped into his head. No save, instant win. "Where's the treasure?" No need to even ask, because he just thought of the location. No save, you win.

Yup.
Unless, as above, he expects you to read his mind, or he is otherwise guarded against telepathic intrusion.

And you think this isn't a bit overpowered for a MINOR PSIONIC POWER?

Not at all.
Read through the other powers and think it over.

The fact that they can't do it for more than a few minutes at a time doesn't matter... they shouldn't be able to do it without a save at all.

Why not?

I'm arguing that a person should [b]always get a save if you're trying to invade their mind, even if it's not to directly manipulate the thoughts (like Hypnotic Suggestion does).

And I'm asking WHY.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. While I'll start by saying I think Killer Cyborg has covered this well, I felt another voice and a few other thoughts might help as well.

Right, and those surface thoughts can be brought to the forefront rather easily with some simple questions.

Yes, that is a possibility. Though asking too many questions (or highly unusual questions) is a good way to get someone suspicious in the first place.

Example: You run into someone and ask them their name while reading their mind. They say "Bob" but their mind says "Fred". Cover instantly blown, no save. I call shenanigans on that.

Maybe. Though if I'm ever using a cover (mind you, I'm an average person, I don't do this stuff professionally, just once or twice for fun or to help someone in some odd situation) when someone asks my name, I don't think of my name. I'm actually thinking of my alias. Why? Because if I don't think about my alias, I won't say it. If my name is Fred, and I'm thinking Fred ... why would I possibly say Bob? I wouldn't ... unless I was thinking Bob.

Now, in my case you'd probably get something like: "Say Bob, say Bob, say Bob." Or: "Remember your name is Bob." Granted something like that may tip off a psychic that something is odd, granted. Of course, as odd as it sounds, I've had times when someone asked me my name and I had to stop, think: "What's my name? Oh, right ..." That probably has something to do with the fact that sometimes I have to make a conscious effort to not say my name is Prysus in real life and I have to stop and remember my birth name (I used my online handle a lot, and started actually referring to myself by it in my mind, which might STILL not give away my true identity if someone scanned me with Telepathy). Maybe I'm weird, but I think you'd be amazed at what actually goes through a person's mind instead of instantly thinking of the answer.

Example: You are in a bank (or similar situation) where someone asks you to write down secret information (PIN code or something similar). BAM, no save, I just learned your code or secret info just from being within telepathy range.

I could honestly say that I think I'd be safe here. If someone asked for my PIN code, my first thought wouldn't be the code. It would be: "Why? Who is this person? Why are they asking? Something's going on. What's this person up to?!" Then I'd probably either ask (in a highly suspicious tone): "Why?" or just say: "Yeeeeah, I don't think I'm going to tell you that."

Now, if the person just walked up behind me while at the ATM and scanned me while at I'm entering my code ... he'd have me dead to rights at getting the number. Telepathy can be highly useful, but only if used intelligently. Just asking questions is a great way to actually put someone on guard (at least it would me), unless done very skillfully.

I've used Telepathy as a player, and I've seen it used as a GM. The ability is handy, no doubt, but I don't see it the end of the world ability as being suggested. One of the important things with Telepathy is to make sure to role-play characters realistically. Some will be easily tricked and do exactly what's suggested. Others will stay closer on guard (especially if they know Telepathy is a reality and not just some storybook power). Individuals like me might be highly paranoid and overthink everything that you can't ever make heads or tails of half the thoughts. Then you get the people who are clueless, just not paying attention, playing the latest [enter music artist here] song in their head, thinking about 20 different things, etc.

Keep in mind I'm just an ordinary person (okay, maybe I'm smarter than averge joe schmoe, but I'm not highly trained either), maybe a bit more suspicious than normal though (living in a big city where people trying to scam you isn't uncommon can help with that fact). Someone skilled, or someone who's been keeping up a lie for years, is probably going to be even far better. This isn't my trying to brag, this is just my speaking from actual experiences when similar things happened. Anyways, I think that's all for now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.


Edit:: P.S. Oh! Let's not forget compulsive liars! I bordered on that when I was younger. I wasn't insane and I stopped after I realized I was getting carried away with it, but I used to lie so much I'd lie just for the sake of lying. Not sure why, I just did. Though, for the record, I've become a very honest person who strongly dislikes lying and believes in telling the truth. That doesn't mean I can't lie, just that I don't.

[Myrrhibis]

You could also house-rule that a person - just as an animal - gets an auto-save, at a -4. For the average Joe, that means he needs a 19-20.

I agree that it could be ridiculously easy to get info, but as others said usually it will be surface thoughts that have nothing to do w/ what the telepath really wants to know.