frogboy wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:frogboy wrote:As for magic, and Erin Tarn there is zero ambiguity there as far as the CS go's.
This is what I'm saying: there is zero ambiguity as to whether the CS has any kind of problem getting resources.
can you post the book and page that says they are sitting on unlimited resources ?
Nope.
And they're NOT sitting on unlimited resources.
But they DO have quite a lot at their disposal, and that's made incredibly clear in the first couple of Rifts books (Rifts and Sourcebook 1), the same place where you claim to have gotten your impression that they DO have problems getting resources.
So let's compare notes:
Rifts, 52
The CS Grunt, the "everyday infantry soldier" of the CS, has (among others) the following skills:
Pilot Hovercraft
Pilot Tank & APC
Robot Combat: Basic
Their BASIC infantry, the guy right out of boot camp, is trained to pilot tanks, hovercraft, robots and power armor.
Does this imply:
a) The CS has limited resources, and probably not a lot of tanks, hovercraft, robots, and power armor at their disposal?
or
b) The CS has enough resources to have a large enough supply of these high-tech and costly war machines that theytake the time, effort, and expense to train every single one of their grunts with the skills to use them, because they know that there are plenty of these machines to go around?
Let's look at the equipment list (again, for the "everyday infantry" of the CS).
Notice that the "Equipment available upon assignment" starts with "Any weapon types."
ANY weapon types.
Their basic soldier can, upon assignment, have ANY WEAPON.
This indicates that they have a sufficient stock of weapons that even high-priced and/or non-standard weapons are readily available for any of their soldiers an an as-needed basis.
Next up is "extra ammunition," again indicating a healthy stock (this is on top of the 8 spare E-Clips that each Grunt already gets as standard).
Again, this indicates a healthy stock of ammunition.
Next up is "Spider Skull Walker, Enforcer UAR-1, Other robot vehicles, hovercraft (especially hovercycle), tank..."
So yeah... they're not just training every one of their basic infantry with the skills to use those vehicles for fun, they're doing it because they fully expect their grunts to use that training from time to time.
Also, note that the average grunt gets a monthly salary of 1700 Credits, along with food, clothing, and "all other basics" for free.
We know that the Credit is the equivalent of the modern US or Canadian dollar (MOPs 108), though it can't buy a lot of the same mass-produced luxuries that we enjoy today at the same rate.
But that means that the average Grunt earns roughly the equivalent of $20,400/year, plus room and board and other expenses.
The pay
as of 2011 for a US military rank E-1 is $1491.00 per month.
Rank E-3 and higher can make more money than the Grunt's equivalent, but the salary listed for the Grunt starts at level one, a green recruit fresh from bootcamp.
So, overall, the CS military can afford to pay its soldiers more or less what the United States of America can pay its soldiers.
Considering that the CS's territory is composed of less than 1/3 of the area of the United States, and they don't have the same level of international trade or other infrastructure, that level of pay demonstrates that they have a remarkably high level of resources available to them for their size and limitations.
Rifts 53
Notice that even though every infantryman leaves boot camp with training in piloting robots, power armor, and hovercycles, the CS has specialists in that kind of piloting. They don't just wait for their Grunts to level up, THEN give them the fancy toys, they specially train elite pilots as well. Again, this indicates that they have plenty of power armor, robots, and other high-tech vehicles available.
Rifts 56
While there are feudal states that take advantage of MOM technology, the CS has outlawed it.
If they were in a truly tight spot, with limited resources, they would be more likely to legalize and utilize this kind of technology, creating super-soldiers to help them survive. As it is, though, they can afford the luxury of rejecting such extreme measures of survival.
Same with Juicers (p. 69): The CS not only forbids Juicer technology among its citizens, they won't even hire outside Juicer mercenaries, even for cannon fodder.
Rifts 128
For those of you who have seen the growing cities of Chi-Town and Quebec, these cities resemble those before the Time of the Rifts.Rifts 129, under the description of Minnesota
This area was a haven for civilized people... these multi-racial towns have prospered and grown over the last 40 years, though still tiny by Coalition standards. This prosperity has made Minnesota human neighbors and the Coalition nervous.The Coalition's immediate opposition will be the city of Tolkeen... Without question, Tolkeen is the largest and most powerful city in the area....
The real opposition that awaits the Coalition is the alien insect race known as the Xiticix...There were, before the CS intervention, a large number of towns that prospered for decades, that were considered a haven for civilized people, and that were prosperous enough to inspire envy in their neighbors.
The largest and most powerful of these cities was Tolkeen.
And they were TINY by Coalition standards.
The REAL opposition in that area to the CS's plans is NOT any of the human cities, or a combination of the human cities that have spent 40 years growing strong in that area- it's the race of insects that has spent only 20 years growing and spreading, and already numbering by some accounts (Rifts 253) in the hundreds of thousands.
Again, Tolkeen "has no hope of survival against an all-out siege," and they're not the real opposition to the CS in that area, despite that city being "without question" the most powerful of the region.
This does not make the CS sound like they're short on resources.
Rifts 140
The Coalition State of Chi-Town encompasses Northern Illinois and all of Iowa. The Iowa section is 70% farmland and 30% livestock, pigs and cattle. Tiny farm communities can be found every 50 miles or so.The Iowa section explains how some of their food necessities are met- they have an entire US State dedicated to food production.
But notice the other part, about how the state encompasses Northern Illinois.
Illinois has a number of natural resources,
coal being one of them, including significant deposits in
Northern Illinois.
Does the CS use coal?
Probably for something. They might use it to supplement their nuclear power sources, not caring about the high sulfur content of the coal. Or they might extract the sulfur to use for other stuff, or they might turn the coal into high-carbon compounds and/or
plastics.
There's a
LOT of coal in Illinois:
"Illinois' recoverable reserves of coal are larger than those of any state east of the Mississippi River and the third largest in the country, behind only Montana and Wyoming. About 200 billion tons of coal are estimated to lie underground in the state."
And there's a heck of a lot that you can do with coal.
Also, northern Illinois has
lead, and Illinois in general has
industrial sand quarries or pits, limestone and dolomite stone quarries and underground mines, clay pits, peat pits, and tripoli quarries.Not to mention quite a bit of timber, farmland, and other resources.
So in northern Illinois alone, even assuming that for some reason there isn't ANY CS mining in the entire state of Iowa, they have a very strong source of coal for power, oil, plastics, and carbon products, as well as stone and timber for construction, and clay for ceramics.
Since the three main MDC materials we see are metal, ceramics, and plastics, that gives them a strong potential supply for 2 out of 3.
Back to Rifts p. 140
The pervasive presence of the military is everywhere in the state of Chi-Town, according to Tarn.
The Illinois portion of the Chi-Town State is the undisputable hub of North America civilization.
The people seem quite content and blissful.Rifts, 141
Missouri is a tactical addition of the Coalition, and is one of the weakest and most timid of the allied states.
It is a rich farmland...
The Coalition has pumped a great deal of money and resources into the develpment of Missouri, which is quickly becoming anew haven for humankind.The state of Missouri (the US state and the CS state have the same borders) has
a large supply of mineral resources, including iron, copper, lead, zinc, cobalt, nickel, various kinds of clay, silica sand, silver, manganese, tungsten, limorite, hematite, barite, limestone, high-magnesium dolemite, granite, felsite, coal, oil, natural gas, and so on.
And, as mentioned, farmland.
In Arkansas, the CS has a strong ally in Fort El Dorado, which has oil fields and refining plants, as well as sawmills and natural gas facilities.
Rifts, 143
The Coalition State of Lonestar claims all of the US state of Texas, although the are that they "really" control is limited to "the northwestern edge from odessa to Amarillo and east to Witchita Falls.
At this point, I could research and link to the resources to be found in that section of Texas, but if you don't get the point, or don't agree with it, by now, I doubt that will help.
Texas has oil, natural gas, iron, copper, and much of the same resources mentioned above, including in the region that the CS controls as of 101 PA.
Rifts 149
The Coalition State of Iron Heart includes "a vast territory," and it's capital City of Iron is "actually much larger" than its pre-rifts days of Sudbury.
It's factories, mines, and saw mills provide people with employment and offers the luxury of civilization, technology, and protection by the Coalition...
Mins and processing plants for iron, nickel, copper, coal, and a bit of silver and gold are the City of Iron and Iron Heart's greatest resource. But it was another asset that convinced Chi-Town to accept Iron Heart as a member of the Coalition States...Specifically, it was a pre-rifts science museum.
So while Iron Heart was an industrial power, with plenty of resources at its disposal,
the CS didn't really need it.
What they wanted was a chance at any pre-rifts technology or knowledge that gets dug up, not the resources or industry.
Which indicates that they already have quite a bit of that on their own.
Meanwhile, Free Quebec is "a high-tech, industrial giant and completely self-supporting" of its population of 1 million people.
And (Rifts 150) this "high-tech, industrial giant" has a technology level that is 25%
lower than that of Chi-Town, "perhaps as much as 40%."
Rifts, 152
Without satellites, communications is limited to ground systems and fiber optics which require broadcasting/relay stations or ground cables. Only the Coalition and a few of the largest cities have the means to implement such systems (the Coalition States all have an impressive broadcast and telephone system).Sounds like they have a healthy infrastructure- ALL Coalition States have impressive communications systems, considering their lack of satellites.
Rifts, 157
From a description of Chi-Town:
Inside is an incredible megalopolis where the elite true humans and their protectors live.You don't get an "incredible megalopolis" if you're struggling for resources.
Rifts, 191
The Coalition has the most powerful army in the known world. Their level of technology is unsurpassed in the Americas.And, from Tarn's writings,
Small, almost inconsequential acts of aggression under the guise of "security" weaves an unmistakable patter of growing military strength and imperialistic conquests. These inconsequential acts of self-preservation have increased the landholdings of Chi-town by 12% and have increased manufacturing and political strength by as much as 35%.Rifts, 193
On the standard Dead Boy armor:
The armor is a lightweight ceramic, with metal accents, bonded on a molecular level, making it stronger than steel.This is why I pointed out the clay pits in Illinois and Missouri- you get ceramics from clay.
You have clay, along with the right tech and manufacturing gear, you have MDC body armor.
Rifts 193-202
Remember how ALL of the Coalition's "everyday infantry" is trained to pilot robots, power armor, tanks, APCs, and sky cycles?
Here's were we get a look at that equipment.
A single SAMAS is worth 1.6 million credits.
An Enforcer is worth 28 million credits.
A Spider Skull Walker is worth 36 million credits.
A Mark V APC is worth 21+ million credits.
A Sky Cycle is worth 1 million credits.
And these are all listed as available for any grunt in the military, if the assignment in question warrants it.
This is stuff that gets used, commonly, by the basic infantry of the Coalition.
This indicates that they have plenty of wealth and resources as a nation.
Also note that these are not the most cost-effective combat vehicles that the CS could have created.
Anything with a nuclear power supply gets an unlimited supply of ammunition for lasers or other energy weapons for the duration of that power supply's lifespan, so if a nation was strapped in resources in any way, they would be likely to design their war machines to take advantage of that fact, and to rely heavily on energy weapons in order to conserve resources.
But the SAMAS doesn't even HAVE a laser- it uses a rail gun, which use up 40 rounds every time the trigger is pulled, and mini-missiles.
And not just any mini-missiles, but Plasma and Armor Piercing
as standard. So that's CR 2,200 per missile used.
They reject FREE energy weapon ammunition in favor of railguns and missiles, because railguns have better range and missiles have better range and damage. Railguns and missiles cost a heck of a lot more, but the CS isn't really worried about cost.
Similar situation with the Enforcer. There are two light laser turrets with good (4,000') range and unlimited ammunition, but the main weapons for the bot are its 80-rounds-burst railgun, some medium range missile launchers (HE or Plasma as standard, so that's 25,000-50,000 Credits per missile launched), some short-range missile launchers (AP, HE, or Plasma as standard, so that's 2,500-5,000 Credits per missile launched, and a mini-missile launcher (same cost as with the SAMAS).
One good battle can cost them hundreds of thousands of credits in spent ammunition alone, but that's not a strong enough incentive for the CS to bother relying more on laser weapons, and less on more expensive ammunition.
It's worth the cost for the weapons they use, and they apparently have plenty of money.
Same deal with the Spider Skull Walker: it has some lasers, but mostly relies on massive railguns that fire 80-round bursts from two cannons at once. No missiles on it, though I don't see any reason to believe that it's because the CS can't afford them. The Skull Walker is a CR 36 million robot spider, so it doesn't seem like they need to pinch any pennies.
The Mark V has more lasers than the other vehicles, but its main weapons, again, are a railgun (40-round bursts) and some forward-facing missile launchers, along with some auto-cannons (no idea how much the frag rounds for that cost, but it's probably comparable to mini-missiles).
As for the Sky Cycle, it's got mini-missile launchers and a laser turret. No rail gun, but that's probably due more to issues of weight and/or recoil than of cost. You don't go with missiles if you're on a budget, not for vehicles that your average grunt is probably going to be driving around in.
Rifts, 218
The Coalition State of Free Quebec is the only kingdom within the Coalitino that manufactures and deploys Glitter Boys, a policiy that will be discontinued if Emperor [Prosek] has anything to say about it (he seeks a consistent and unified force and GBs are not part of his plan).The Coalition States can manufacture and use perhaps THE most powerful suit of power armor available, but decides not to for aesthetic and political reasons.
Nations that are strapped for resources don't generally decide against adding to their firepower simply because they want things to be more uniform.
The CS has the manufacturing and economic capabilities to have the luxury of picking and choosing what and who goes into their military.
SB1, 12
The Coalition States is the largest and most powerful nation in the AmericasFifty percent of the Coalition's citizens have some form of cybernetic or bionic augmentation. The majority of these implants are minor or for medical reasons... Cybernetic and high-tech medical treatment have increased the average life expectancy of those living in the big cities, like Chi-town, to 90 years. The smaller CS cities and towns enjoy an average life expectancy of about 80 years.A town, by definition, must engage in industry (even primitive industry like barrel-making, carpentry, tailoring, etc.), services (mail delivery, repairs, stores, etc.), trade (exchanging finished goods or services for raw materials), administration (some sort of governing body, king, lord, priest, leader, council of elders, etc.), research and development (both the town's deveopment and industry's). Without these six conditions, a gathering of people and buildings is not a town.The population of a town can be as little as a few hundred to several thousand.(Rifts, 140: The Illinois population of the Chi-Town State has hundreds of small towns)
SB1, 21
A man always thinking of the future, Emperor Prosek has directed Chi-Town and Lone-Star military to dispatch reconnaissance forces into New Mexico and Central America. The primary objective is to scout the land for future invasion and secondly, to address the rumors of vampires dominating Central America... Rumor has it that a few secret CS outposts have already been established in Central America.
The CS is secure enough in their current position and power to be thinking about long-term conquests, and was already making motions in that direction as early as 102 PA.
Also, note that Prosek has special body armor that has 100 MDC (like the later-implemented new style CS Heavy Dead Boy armor), but weighs only 15 lbs.
Just another sign of their high tech. General Cabot (p. 22) has the same kind of armor.
SB1, 27
A Coalition Reconnaissance Squad is a team of soldiers whose job is to explore and investigate a particular region. The investigation may be to search for the enemy (usually to locate and identify, NOT seek and destroy, although a possible option), monitoring an area (to make certain the enemy is not operating in that area), or mapping and noting of a region...Note that a Light Mechanized Recon Squad has 2-3 SAMAS, 2-3 Grunts, and that there is a 70% chance that the grunts will be piloting Sky Cycles. Just to highlight jet again that Grunts regularly use pieces of million-credit equipment. There's also a tech officer (same transport as the grunts) and a Military Specialist (SAMAS or Sky Cycle or Bionic augmentation).
The HEAVY Mechanized Recon Squad has heavier stuff, from Abolishers to Skull Walkers, teamed with SAMAS, of course.
SB1, 33
The Skelebots are comparatively inexpensive, mass produced unites designed with the thought that they will have a high mortality/destruction rate considering their intended deployment into extremely hostile environments.SB1, 34
Black Market Cost: Three Million CreditsThe CS is using as cannon fodder, high-tech robots that they
mass produce, with the full understanding that these robots will not be long-lived, and will take a lot of losses. These "comparatively inexpensive" robots have a resale value of 3 million credits.
The kind of resources and manufacturing base that would be required for that is impressive- not the kind of thing that an empire with any kind of lack of resources would attempt.
SB1, 38
Triax Industries has become increasingly aggressive in their marketing and sale of robots, power armor, and other weapons and equipment in North America...
The main reason that Triaz Industries' products are now more available is that Emperor Prosek has agreed to a little known and informal pact with the infamous New Republic (Germany and Scandinavia)...
The pact includes a limited trade agreement that gives Triax access to less hostile, CS secured, trade routes, occasional CS military escorts, and limited commercial services.Not only does the CS engage in trade with Europe, the reason why Triax can trade more successfully in recent (102 PA) years is because the CS protects them by guarding trade routes and providing military escorts.
So they're both economically capable and secure, as well as being a strong enough military that they can ensure better security for Triax Industries than they can provide for themselves (in America, anyway).
SB1 55
The black market, CS malls, some Burbs,and some of the larger Coalition and non-CS communities offer repairs for body armor and robotics. Still, availability is pretty limited. Only the most industrialized places have such facilities.Known repair facilities in the Coalition States:
ALL the CS capital cities and major industrial communitiesOutside of the CS, the list includes:
Northern Gun, Manistique Imperium, Lazlo, Tolkeen, Whykin, Kingsdale, Fort El Dorado, and the Pecos Empire.
That's it- nobody else (in the early books) had that kind of capability.
The CS (which has 5 capitals alone, and I'd wager at least as many non-capital cities that qualify as major industrial communities), and 8 places outside of the CS.
At least two of which are set to become CS allies, and one of which is set to be destroyed by the CS.